In the social circles that I move in (cosmopolitan, multiracial, liberal, well educated, etc. etc.) I don’t get asked the question “are you Indian?” or “Are you from India?” often. This is a big change from my youth. In the 1980s I was probably asked this nearly every week. Today if I am asked it is usually from a white or black American over the age of 40. That is, of the generation where “Where are you from?” had an exotic valence because not too many of their classmates were from/hard parents from elsewhere.
But a few days ago I was introduced to an old high school friend of my wife. To give some background, he’s a cultural Jew who lives in the Pacific Northwest, with a “New Age” orientation (so to speak). He greeted me with the “Are you Indian?” question, to which I responded apathetically with “my family is from Bangladesh.” Nevertheless, he decided to tell me about his friend from Bombay, and also asked me how I thought the chai was (I drink coffee). I found this all somewhat amusing, though tiresome (also, his wife was surprised that I didn’t know much about homeopathy, since it was big in India!). And yet I had a bigger meta issue which I was considering: is really useful to categorize brown folk/South Asians/Indians into one group?
Obviously to some extent it is. Pakistanis may protesteth, but to to Middle Eastern or Southeast Asians they’re just Indians-by-another-name, who happen to be Muslim. Our genetics, cuisine, to some extent language, folkways, unite us. And yet we’re also extremely varied. There is “Indian food” in a general sense, but there is also Indian food in a real regional sense. I don’t know much about Udupi cuisine, and what I know about Tandoori is from visiting Indian restaurants in the USA. There’s a lot of cultural detail about South Asia that I feel I people assume that I am aware of, which I’m not. Some of this could be my ignorance, but I suspect that a lot of it is just the fact that South Asia is diverse.
“Pakistanis may protesteth, but to to Middle Eastern or Southeast Asians they’re just Indians-by-another-name, who happen to be Muslim.”
To westerners too. But then Pakistan has a tough problem. They want to identify with Arab imperialists but the Arabs discriminate against them. They profess to be close with Central Asia but Iran/Azerbaijan is Shia and Afghans/Uzbeks/Tajiks hate Pak. There are really two choices that work politically and only one socially.
1) Pak as a Chinese province, the “silk road people”. That will require a lot of heavy duty pre-islamic silk road myth building.
2) Join in an anti-India (social and political) federation with Nepal, Bangla, Lanka and Maldives. Burma is out, burmese are reacting to the pain of chinese imperialism and kicking muslim minorities as well. Bhutan is also not likely.
I look forward to the P-N-B-SL-M restaurant chains in the near future. That will be a most awesome branding exercise if they can pull it off.
3) Finally how did homeopathy get identified with India? Hahnemann was pure Nordic stock. Next thing you know, people will blame the harmonium on the Indians as well.
regards
I disagree – Westerners lump Pakistan in with the Middle East because it’s another “Stan” (most Americans don’t seem to know it was even part of India). India is viewed as a nation of peaceful cow-loving vegetarians with multi-armed elephant gods; Pakistan is lumped in with Afghanistan as towel-head terrorists.
I look racially ambiguous so I get “Where are you from?” quite a bit, even in my social circle of early 20′s liberals. Amusing guesses too. South Asia is really too diverse to stereotype and most 1st/2nd gen brown Americans cling to their ethnic roots (Paki Punjabi’s socialize with other Paki Punjabi’s, etc). In a few generations we may homogenize into a more generic “South Asian” identity (Mindy Kaling kind of does this, probably since she’s bengali/tamil).
What you are saying seems grim news to our “towel-wearing” Khalistani brothers. That is why every time there is an anti-sikh attack in the west, you have a few beards jumping up and down screaming “WE ARE NOT MUSLIMS.” The only pleasure I get out of that is how it annoys the heck out of the diversity drones on any campus.
Speaking of diversity in SA food, if you want to needle a Sikh (never a good idea), ask if he would like a Halal meal. The downside is you will have to listen to a “devastating critique” TM on how cruel halal practice really is.
Sometimes I imagine that SA diversity was created as a branding exercise more than anything else (defined by what people cannot do/eat/say). Hindus do not eat beef, muslims no pork, sikhs no halal, jains practically no food at all (I have a jain friend whose grandmother cant eat a tomato because its red color reminds her of blood).
regards
I dont think Sikhs eat beef either, also even though it is not forbidden like beef, Hindus (and Sikhs too I guess) also avoid pork as it is considered unclean, traditionally very poor castes among dalits (such as Paswan) usually eat pork
“I dont think Sikhs eat beef either, also even though it is not forbidden like beef”
That part was a bit difficult to digest.
apologies and regards
I may be wrong but from what I have seen Sikhs don’t eat beef, not sure whether it is explicitly prohibited in Guru Granth Sahib or is it more out of custom.
In my expereince they (Americans) only lump Pak with the MiddleEast in so far as Islam goes and *only* if the Westerner is the average American. Brits know the difference between Paks and MidEasterners.
Some westerners may identify pakistan as a “stan” but that typically is used as shorthand for the half dozen or so former soviet block states. You do see pakistan being identified within a new Af-pak regional identity though these are all used within geo-political discussions, and are not colloquial.
Sadly, people like to generalize (often while using false foundations for their generalizations). I know and have met many regular white american dudes who actually identify all of both south asia and the middle east together as a greater cultural (or “racial”) entity with regional variations. One friend once told me that he thought pakistanis were ‘half indian, half arab”.
If we only include fairly knowledgeable people, I think that the prevailing view of indians, pakistanis and bangladeshis as south asian (or “indian”) people is still dominant. However, due to how much pakistan has been in the news over the past decade, the distinction between indian and pakistani identities is more prominent now, and though most would still understand they are in the same geographic neighborhood, many think of pakis as the “dangerous” ones or whatever.
Lighter skinned south asians always confuse americans (and notably not Brits) because they fall into the “hispanic” bucket in american racial categorization by phenotype. Since this palate is different elsewhere, its not universally as confusing (i’m guessing lighter skinned south asians are correctly identified more often in Canada even).
I’m mostly adding color to items in your comment but will object to one part as i don’t think most 2nd gen south asians hang out with their ethnic sub groups primarily, based on my experience. I guess this can vary based on location, but most 2nd gen indians i know identify as and mingle with random indian americans. indians may have homogenized in this way more so than paki-americans.
“But then Pakistan has a tough problem. They want to identify with Arab imperialists but the Arabs discriminate against them”
Stockholm Syndrome, very very entrenched in the SubCon. There could be volumes written on this.
I knew a Pak Punjabi in College (US) who used to live in Saudi. He hated Arabs, said his older brother was only too happy to pick fights with Khaleejis (Gulf Arabs) who came to the US to study. Found that amusing and hilarious.
A Filipino girl in a dentist office (Milpitas, CA) asked me today where i was from. I think, in Bay area, ppl can differentiate b/w Asians. In such scenarios, I take these questions lightly…specially when I have an accent
But i can imagine its annoying for folks born and raised here, from south asian (or east asian) families
I’ve been asked a few times in the early 90s and less in the early 00s, doesn’t bother me, it’s just innocent curiosity.
The generational gap in “are you from India” is something I see as well though I wonder what people are thinking (not in a thoughtcrime police way but overbearing curiousity) when I do things like tell the owner of a small and popular restaurant that my reservation is under “Alastair,” and when he bellows it out at the crowd of about 30 wealthy white people waiting outside, I can’t help but think that their momentarily confused expressions have something to do with their preconceptions. I think it’s funny (which seems to be the main personal utility to the “south asian” category. It’s the misanthrope’s favorite!) Someone else might write a Thought Catalog, N+1 or Gawker piece on how their social justice morality came into conflict with some other nebulous social force of apparently immense consequence and that they are ashamed that the former did not win out.
Hey bro, how about losing the sad face. We want Nandalal the man with the winning smile (and attitude).
regards
My comments for this blog entry don’t show up in the right hand column under “new comments”. The comments were not made with me Logged-in.
The Pakistanis that Sid knows (do you actually know any real live Pakistanis?) might want to be seen as Middle Easterners but I have no problem being identified as South Asian (and nor do many other Pakistanis). If people think I’m “Indian”, that’s fine by me too, because Pakistan was part of British India until 1947 and I’m ethnically exactly like the Punjabis on the other side of the Radcliffe Line. My family has roots in the UP, so yes I am “Indian”. I wear shalwar kameez (Indian dress), perform ghazal, thumri, and khayal (Indian Music) and eat “Indian” food.
Just because I don’t like Hindutvadis doesn’t mean I reject my heritage.
“Just because I don’t like Hindutvadis doesn’t mean I reject my heritage.”
Well I dont like people who wear religion on their sleeves in general. If there is a Creator, she certainly has a strange sense of humor, whereby her creations are always threatening to annihilate each other in her name.
I like music as well, we pursue instruments/vocals with immense enthusiasm at our place, if/when you visit Mumbai (with TLW in tow) we can have a sangat (along with the ultra-posh Colaba dwelling Ambuj).
About Indian food etc IMO the only thing authentic (as in distinctly Indian) is veg food (and specifically as a bengali, milk sweets).
And yes plenty of Pak friends from my college days. Enjoy(ed) watching cricket together and fighting about it, much more pleasant than the religion fights.
regatds
Thanks Sid for the invitation. I shall look you up if I’m ever in Mumbai:)
Wouldn’t Mughalai cuisine count as “Indian food”? all that biryani, pulao, korma? It’s not vegetarian but certainly Indian.
Sure, but biryani/pulao is found in many forms around central asia all the way to Italy (risotto?).
The spices certainly came from India. When my mom was visiting the Netherlands, she found that they are fond of Indonesian food which is again spicy in a different way.
regards
http://eurasian-sensation.blogspot.com.au/2009/06/pilaf-how-rice-dish-conquered-world.html
+1
I don’t care who you are but calling Shalwar Qameez an Indian dress speaks volume about you limited knowledge. Shalwar Qameez is a Pakistani dress and PTV dramas made it popular in India. It is still worn only by woman in India. Indian food you eat is just a spicy form of Central Asian, Afghan and Persian food.
Shalwar Qameez may or may not be Indian but the Sari is considered un-islamic in Pak (injunction by President Zia).
If you wear Sari you start looking like a Hindu girl from India as opposed to an Arab maiden with an electronic chain.
regards
SId,
Many Pakistani women wore saris all their lives. My dadi was from Agra and she wore saris at home as did all her relatives.
Many Pakistani girls (at least upper-class) wear saris on formal occasions such as shaadis– DESPITE whatever Zia sahab might have said.
Sari is undoubtedly as Indian as sati – it was never a dress of Punjabi or Sindhi women therefore, it is still mostly worn by the immigrants from India.
The sari was worn by sindhi and punjabi women since ancient times. Since it bares the midriff and navel, it lost favor with most muslim converts over time though not all (it was favored by some airstocratic muslim women). Even Fatima Jinnah’s regular outfit was a sari. After Zia declared it “unislamic”, it more formally exited pakistani life and identity.
Umm..
Shalwar Kameez was worn in the UP before Pakistan existed! And many Indian men still wear shalwar kameez or kurta pajama. Yes, it is an “Indian” and NOT just Pakistani dress. Let’s not create differences where there aren’t any.
Shalwar Qameez was not worn in UP before the partition. The Muslims of of those areas used to wear kurta pajama, which was introduced by the Mughals. Shalwar Qameez was only worn in the areas around Indus and Afghanistan. Even Muhajirs who migrated to Pakistan after the partition of British India adopted this attire in Pakistan.
A few points.
1.) For many people outside of the Middle East and South Asia. Most North Indian males if they grow beards and wear a white turban wouldn’t really look that different from bin Laden. They might be a little shorter sure and you can say something analgous to this for many different groups. One of my Sikh friends told me once after 9/11, “we look more like bin Laden, than Muslims do”. That’s true to some degree. Many actual Sunni Arabs look less like bin Laden than Sikhs do.
2.) I’v actually been asked once “I know you’re Indian *OR* Middle Eastern” but not which country, so which country are you from?”. Which is interesting.
3.) From my limited experience with Gulf Arabs they don’t seem that much lighter-skinned than South Asians but they self-ID as White at a much larger rate than South Asians do.
4.) Within the US, from what I’m noticing at least amongst second-generation children of Muslim immigrants [probably worth writing a blog post on] is sort of a “Muslim-American melting pot” with the different Diasporas intermingling and forming a US Muslim subculture in their own right. This is probably more true of Sunnis than Shi’ites because of cross-cultural rituals that are more salient with Shi’ites and probably most easily occurs in middle-sized cities where different ethnicities interact at Mosque/Islamic Centers/Nightly Iftars/etc. My mom actually attends a mosque where South Asians are regularly less than 10% of the Friday Prayer congregation and even less in that various programs/lectures. I’v actually been curious if non-Muslim South Asians notice this and what they think of it.
Yes definitely we can see the same shift here; the formation of religious based British identities. Of course the British Asian & British Black identities are still extraordinarily powerful but Brit-Paks & Brit-Bangs are able to offset their under-representation in the Brit-Asian community by participating in the Brit-Muslim community so it’s all good.
Yes Some slow americans do identify me as middle eastern, also some chini…
but i dont think we have anything in common, except probably some degree of appearance.
Yes Some slow americans do identify me as middle eastern, also some chini…
but i dont think we have anything in common, except probably some degree of appearance.
please stay on topic, or i’ll start banning you. some of you seem to be having discussions based on long-standing animus/conflicts. that’s fine, but please not on this thread.
My bad on violating this once (though it was partially on topic).
I personally am asked sometimes to identify whether i am indian or pakistani and sometimes i am asked if i am ‘indian or pakistani’ collectively as opposed to something else. i’m not annoyed eitehr way and would only specify if i was asked the first one.
It might be more correct for someone to ask whether I am indian or bangla due to proximity of where my family is from in india (no, not bengal) but this just reflects a total lack of awareness of a bangla/bengali identity amongst americans at least (its a lot better in the UK). I can imagine that almost every bangladeshi outside of some hoods in queens will be identified as an indian first.
As much as you non-indian south asians perceive this false identification to be so impactful personally, relax. i don’t know about ayurvedic medicine, would feel more at home eating a meal at either a bangla or pak punjabi home vs. a gujrati or south indian one (veg or non-veg) and I dont know pathan tribal hierarchies all that well but don’t know much about telugu culture either. ‘indian’ itself is pretty diverse and so the terms inclusion of pak, bangla, SR and nepali identities in colloquial usage is neither odd nor something i would be offended by.
however, if you are a south asian muslim and also wear religious garb, you probably won’t be identified as an indian, i think.
I had never heard of Udupi cuisine until this post but I do like Dosas.
udupi cuisine is a label for what many people just think of as south indian food, idly-vada-dosa type of fare. It became very popular among the office going crowd in places like Bombay in the 1950′s , and most of the proprietors were from the udupi-mangalore area further down the coast. what they served was not so much home-styled authentic fare of that region, but a type of vegetarian fast-food menu for people on the go.
Regarding the topic of the thread, is indian or south asian a useful category? i think so for the reason that it is a zone of civilization. the subcontinent has a cultural substrate of related epic oral traditions and sanskritic/prakritic literary production. furthermore, those cultural markers have remained pivotal to any understanding of the regions. Even in Pakistan, the retreat from memory of the Indian classical culture is fairly recent and will not likely be permanent. fundamentally, for a Punjabi or a Sindhi to investigate the origins and development of their language they must eventually reach back to the apabhramsas, prakrits and sanskrit.
For the Dravidian south, we must dig through a massive superstrate of gangetic sanskrit/prakritic influence to reconstruct what our “pure” dravidian identity must have been. Our old selves are almost irretrievable.
I realize that some people think the classification by religious affiliation to be meaningful, in as much as it is tallying the number of people on each “team”. I personally would not put the Poles in southern europe because of their catholicism. I think that even the ordinary person has a part of themselves that is an armchair cultural geographer and that Indian is a meaningful enough category for them to understand.
A few weeks ago I went to a kebab house in north London. The guy working behind the counter was Afghan. He was a student, working nights to earn some extra cash. He was really friendly, and as we waited for my chicken and kofta mixed kebab to cook on the grill, he shyly asked me if I was Indian. I said yes, I am, and he became very effusive, talking about how much he loves India, Indian music, Indian films, and Indian people. Then he told me about his girlfriend, who is Pakistani.
“She says she’s Pakistani, but I always tell her, you’re Indian, what is this Pakistani? She doesn’t like that but I say it anyway”
I just smiled. I understand why Pakistanis get irked when they get mistaken for Indians (I do genuinely feel annoyed when I get mistaken for Pakistani), but it was interesting nevertheless.
I think there is some genuine warmth for Indians amongst Afghans, that may be grist to paranoid Pakistanis, but I do think its real.
Yes Bobby,
Many Afghans resent the role that Pakistanis have played in destabilizing their country and supporting the Taliban in the quest for “strategic depth”. They forget however that this was the military and the ISI and not the rest of us. Also, they conveniently forget which country took in all the refugees from the Afghan war. They all came to Peshawar and many of them even now refuse to go back to Afghanistan.
Yes and Pakistan only hosted 4mn Afghans in its greatest time of need.
The Potohar valleys around Islamabad have only been devastated by Afghani goats (who don’t graze but rather eat by tearing the roots).
Least they can do is show some gratitude rather than indulge in anti-Pak commentary.
Are you being sarcastic?
We had to take in the refugees. After all the anti-Soviet war was waged by Pakistan (and the US). Where were the Afghans going to go? India?
But, we are somewhat responsible for the situation that Afghanistan is in. “Strategic depth” was a bad idea…..
Why not; if they love India so much why not..
iran also took in a lot of afghans.
hahaha, do you seriously believe anybody will ever take your anecdote seriously.
@ Eurasian
That was a most delightful article, especially the pictures. Made me feel hungry for more:-)
A`quibble subject to correction.
My grandpa who was a Sanskrit scholar taught me the language at home. His contention is (was) that Polao in Bengali derives from Pal-anna in the mother language. Pal means meat and anna is rice. Palanna was popular with Hindu sects and also Buddhists.
That said Persians have carpets and cats (and so do you), so lets not fuss about the pilaf.
regards
PS glad to note that we are “same-to-same” (as they say in India) re: burkha. Alina Sid and Chris, dont like Burkha on a Miss.
One comment I frequently hear from Pakistanis (and even some Indians) is about how Indian or “hindu” food is patently vegetarian. This usually comes off annoying me as my family is from a state in india that is ~95% hindu and also 95% non-vegetarian. We ate meat chicken or fish every day except for Mondays and special holidays. The only vegetarians are typically women and elderly who adopt it later in life.
Its also true that the majority of indian hindus (a slight majority though a majority nevertheless) are also non vegetarians. This isn’t due to any recent phenomenon either. the fact of the matter is that vegetarianism was innovation introduced into hinduism, most likely as a result of Jain influence. It then followed the typical hindu ritualization where it became standard for brahmins to be vegetarian (brahmins from my region, bengal, kashmir and some other areas do eat meat though). In any case, my point is that there is a strong meat eating tradition in hinduism that is more than likely the progenitor of much of the traditions.
Islamic conquest certainly revived and elevated the meat eating traditions in south asia but were not its source. I know many pakistanis/muslims have an inclination to credit islamic influence as the genesis for just about anything they enjoy culturally (as otherwise they are enjoying pre-islamic infidel heritage) but this one doesn’t fly. Mughlai cuisine is great as we all know but even mughlai cuisine is a synthesis that borrows more of the local tastes than the original foreign dish. For example, if you go to a an afghan restuarant (not pathan, since they themselves are heavily influenced by the indian palate) and try dishes such as Korma, it will be wildly different from any korma you have ordered in an desi restaurant. Essentially, it is braised meat with browned onions, little spice and no “curry” whatsoever. Also, though the word biryani is persian, the original persian dish is of roasted marinated meat (what the word biryani means) served with bread. the south asian biryani is very popular across the middle east now, probably in iran too though i know the arabs are big fans.
Mughlai food does have a huge input from foreign muslims, primarily in the use of fruits, nuts and dairy/cream in dishes as well as a more elevated respect for non-vegetarian food. Of course many dishes enjoyed elsewhere were imported and adapted, like haleem and kebabs. In the end though, its not really fair to think of it as a separate tradition, and if you go ahead and try uzbek and persian dishes, you’ll see this play out very clearly.
Non vegetarian desi food, whether it is mughlai or bengali, does have a dominant local south asian basis based on long-standing traditions. muslim rajputs in pakistan do not eat meat curries because this was introduced by persians, but because they are eating variations of whatever their ancestors ate for millenia. the muslim contribution to south asian non-vegetarian food, however, is undeniable.
I think it is the prevalence of gujrati hindus (who are big time vegetarians) in the diaspora indian communities that help spread this belief, but also i think it comes from some more pakistani desires to think of indians as “different”.
+1, remember even while eating food (hindu/muslim) differentiation is a must. TNT rules the kitchen.
My parents generation did not eat chicken because chickens were raised by muslims. Sikhs will still not eat halal chicken preferring vegetarian food instead.
The Kashmiri (Hindu) family that we used to interact with in the US once informed us that they cook meat spiced with hing (asafoetida), while the (Kashmiri) muslims cook with lasun (garlic).
Its a crazy crazy world. Hing for hindus, lasun for muslims!!!
regards