Shia killing continues apace in Pakistan. This time they blew the front off an entire apartment building (also killing 18 Sunnis in the process). Unfortunately, there is going to be more before this madness ends. The killers are very determined. And they may even be ready to take the long view if the army asks them to slow down for a few months. This sounds pessimistic..and I guess it is. But one does not have to be privy to state secrets to know this. The sipah e sahaba is not just an instrument of RAW, MOSSAD and the ILLUMINATI. It has a real presence (perhaps less visible to the super-elite and left wing “native informants” like Sadia Toor and Humera Iqtidar?).
A word about left wing native informants. I know there are native informants galore and I have been accused of being one myself, but I could not find (in a 2 minute google search) any article that sheds light on left wing native informants. Someone must have written something about the various Western educated member of the South Asian native elite who help to translate the affairs of the natives into the language of the modern Western Left. Can someone help find a good write-up?
Back to Shia-hatred.This is Haq Nawaz Jhangvi’s son. Yes, the same haq nawaz after whom the Laskhar e Jhangvi (LEJ) is named.
and this is Malik Ishaq in a very calm mood.
Malik Ishaq? Check.
Adoring supporters? Check
Police escort? Check (i have just been informed by @ShahidSaeed that the uniformed guards are LEJ’s own security staff, not police. Complete with siren. Good.)
Armed guards? check.
I am posting my previous posts in no particular order. For background see
Shias and their future in Pakistan.
Some notes on the Shia Sunni conflict.
OK.
Any questions?
It took a lot of work (partition, two nation theory,Punjab holocaust, madressas, CIA, ISI) to get to this level of cold blooded hatred. And of course, the roots go back much further, all the way into our species and its biological evolution (though like Ghataprabha, I too fantasize about the goodness of the folk versus the evil of the elite, but then..)…anyhow, whatever the cause, these particular dogs are now rabid. As major Amin says, the handlers themselves are deluded if they think they can still use these canines for some “higher aim”. They will bite everyone. Their handlers included. And the SSG (Pakistan’s special services group commandos) are not going after them anytime soon. Some people think its because the strategic geniuses in the army still feel these are “our boys” , to be used later in Afghanistan and India. I think they may tell themselves that (everyone needs to feel their choices are good) but I am inclinded to think its mostly because the dogs are rabid and nobody wants to be bitten and its easy to delude yourself that your “restraint” is some sort of genius strategic plan and soon Amrika will leave and all will be well.
It will get worse before it gets better.
I am willing to blame progress and modern ideologies and capitalism as much as the next man. Well, maybe not as much, but a fair amount. But then I think about Babur slaughtering Pakhtuns, Abdali slaughtering Punjabis and Nadir Shah pretty much slaughtering everyone and have to pause.
A bomb in Quetta has killed 80 and injured close to 200. Police say the bomb was built with 800-1000 KG of Explosives. It exploded in a fruit market. Many of the dead are women and children.
This particular Shia community has been targeted for years. Hundreds are dead. Thousands have fled the country. Scores, maybe hundreds of those have died crossing the sea to Australia.
They are not very welcome back in Afghanistan either.
But the killing will not stop with them. “Real Pakistan”, i.e. Punjab and urban Sindh is not immune. Here is Maulana Ahmed Ludhianvi. He is chief of the Sipah e Sahaba. He is invited on TV to give his views. He stands on the dias with Hafiz Saeed and Hamid Gul and Imran Khan when they want to show the world the powerful unity of the Defence of Pakistan Council.
Maulana Ludhianvi is an honorable man. Listen after the 30 second mark
He says if he is unable to prove that Shias are kafirs, then he should be shot.
Pakistan has to become secularized to survive as a multi-religious state. Otherwise, the plan is clear. It is to become a Sunni Jihadi state. And everyone else has to live under those rules, or will face their wrath.
The army and the police cannot control these people while supporting and using their ideology. They cannot give up that ideology until they suppress/forget/ignore the dream of a pure Islamic state and its international jihadi armies.
They lack the will and the ability. The will more than the ability.
For those who understand Urdu, hospital speech from Aurangzeb Farooqi, an SSP leader who was recently shot in Karachi (he survived with minor injuries).
I am posting this because I find that a number of friends simply have no idea of the kind of Shia hatred that is being systematically encouraged by the SSP in Pakistan. This level of public projection of communal hatred directed at Shias started in the 1980s and has accelerated since. But it can be missed if you live in Defensej or Clifton or other upper class neighborhoods. Upper class burger-jihadis are not always familiar with it (though some of them have got the message that some Shia beliefs approach the zone of heresy and may need to be adjusted as pure islam takes hold). Westoxicated Leftists have absolutely no clue at all, since they grew up in Defense, went to school in KGS and studied postcolonialism and critical studies in Boston.
Well, time to get clued in..
and this is the leader whose mission he promises to carry on:
A few quick points:
1. He openly states that his mission is the mission of Haq Nawaz Jhangvi, the man after whom the supposedly banned organization “lashkar e jhangvi” is named. LEJ is the terrorist organization that is responsible for killing hundreds of Shias across Pakistan. He boasts that when he is done, no Sunni in Pakistan will even shake hands with a Shia and “we wont have to kill them, they will die their own death” (apni maut aap mar jaen gey”).
2. This man was travelling in a Toyota Land cruiser with half a dozen armed guards and a police escort was leading the way. Or as brother Tariq Ali would say “lumpen elements”.
3. The leader of the SSP, Maulana Ludhianvi was at the hospital to meet him and give him his full support. This leader is regularly on TV, is courted by political parties and is a leading light of the “defence of Pakistan council” floated by the army just last year.
4. In protest against this attack the SSP was able to have the entire city of Karachi observe a strike on 12-26. If this is a fringe group it is a rather powerful fringe group.
Connect the dots
btw, here is Maulana Ludhianvi welcoming Malik Ishaq on his release from prison
Meanwhile in Indonesia they are burning the Shias off the land.
Though i must add that the situation is Indonesia is not analogous because Shias a very tiny minority there. They can be suppressed and the nation may still remain largely unaffected. Pakistan, with 20 million plus Shias is not the same thing.
Addendum from friend in Karachi: Aside from conducting Shia massacres all over Pakistan, the nexus of LeJ-ASWJ formerly known as SSP is also responsible for attacks on Pakistan’s Christian and Ahmadi muslim communities. The overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks can be traced back to this nexus of interconnected groups which include suicide attacks all over Pakistan that have killed countless Sunnis following the softer strains of Sufism. Too often, any criticism against LeJ is dismissed on the basis of ignorance or dishonest scholarship that has been thoroughly debunked. And Yes, even before 9/11, LeJ-SSP had well established links with the Taliban. When Pakistan’s then Interior Minister Gen. Moinuddin Haider requested for the extradition of Riaz Basra from Taliban protection in Kabul, he was bluntly rejected by the army’s own proxies.
With apologies to Zachary for hijacking his (sincere) sunny optimism for my own ends, but its that kind of day in Pakistan.
3 buses were stopped. By men wearing army uniforms. In Mansehra (where the blessed ISI, in its infinite wisdom and in pursuit of the fulfillment of the said “Two Nation Theory”, had sited the largest number of Jihadi training camps in the good old days when the CIA was still pro-jihad or at least did not mind Jihad as long as it was in Kashmir). Passengers taken off, check. ID’s scanned, check. Shias identified by Shia sounding names (choti yay…for those who understand Urdu), check. Shias shot, check. Some reportedly beheaded for the accompanying video, check.
In case delicate souls are unaware of how the checking can proceed, here is a video in which the mujaheddin (name given to them by an ISI brigadier during Afghan jihad, not by culturally sensitive CIA station chief) examine an old man’s back for flagellation scars (scars carried by many Shiites as a result of their particular religious rituals).
And here is a video of what happens after the passengers are dismounted (produced by the Mujahedeen, complete with jihadi songs).
The LeJ head honcho looks like he’s a twin of the LeT head honcho.
The bus incident is reminiscent of what the Khalistanis did in Indian Punjab during the ’80′s; the ever-loving hand of the ISI was behind that as well.
Seriously dude, strongly recommend that you don’t visit Pakistan at any time. No matter how many excuses you can come up in your mind about your relative insignificance, in the Stasi-like nightmare of Pakistan today you are a marked man and Salim Shahzad’s tortured fate awaits. Never a doubt.
Agree, Doctor Sahib should be careful.
+1
Just putting this out there:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2013/02/27/commentary/afghanistans-partition-might-be-unpreventable/#.UTTKXzd5eR4
One of my closest friends (like a brother to me) is a Pakistani Shia. This is just horrifying.
Surely there are elite Shia in Pakistan no? Elites with power to protect their brethren? At 20% they may be a minority but there must a few Shia politicians who are wealthy land owners who can fund protection forces?
Yes, there are – Zardari for one!
Not to gloat
and no Hindu in india desires a unification with Pakistan any longer
but this is long overdue ‘I todl you so” moment
Dude you should have gone with your first sentiment, even if one agrees with your statement, not the appropriate time or place.
its time Hindus stopped being politically correct
primes suspect in Hyderabad blast is someone who was pardoned by andhra government after killing three hindu traders…
Yup, India can certainly teach a lesson or two (maybe even ten!) to Pakistan on treatment of minorities. Maybe India can teach Pakistan a lesson on forgiveness. You thought the Catholic Church was too forgiving of sexual abusers! Ha! Nobody is as forgiving as the Indian masses (or at least the ones who live in parts of Delhi) who actually elected the mass killers of Sikhs in a free and fair election. I mean you cannot really hold the fact that these guys led mobs baying for Sikh blood against these guys forever. Not to be outdone the Gujarati electorate re-elected Modi to reward him for all his efforts to save Muslim lives in Gujarat. Take that Pakistan!
I personally think riots cannot last long without support from the ruling party. The problem lies with the fact that the police is not independent and is influenced indirectly by the ruling group. The biggest reform that India needs is police reform. It’s being forced bit by bit by the courts but there is still a long way to go from the colonial structure that the police still works under. A few convictions in the Gujarat riots still offers a slight ray of hope for change in the future. More than this technology offers some hope with almost every mobile phone having a camera, mobile tower records, tracing of Internet activity and increasing computerisation of the bureaucracy making it more difficult to remove traces of complicity, but still India has a very long way to go in these matters.
desidawg – don’t kid yourself. India is far from perfect in its secularism. It is also far from Pakistan
nothing like alittle “I told you so” to follow a couple dozen deaths
May be the Americans can do something about this. Two birds one stone. A nice little PR offensive for the Iranian people and also keep the Pakistani radicals in check. A win-win.
The idiot and spineless American won’t do a damn thing. Our brilliant and well educated leaders inside the beltway have been thoroughly outdone by the general sahibs in the Pak Army/ISI for over a decade now and that won’t change. All that education is mainly used to rationalize their lack of character and courage. They will find a way to keeping sending the checks to the Pak Army/ISI while making some kind of noise to keep their consciences clear. The US will do nothing.
Boss,
American have their agenda straight from
the reason of creation of Pakistan which
is to control Iran oil from coming east with
ease. This is part of Great Game.
This is the same reason Dollar is traded in Oil,
if any one tries to circumvent that there is trade war or sanctions.
Naivete of Americans is breathless when it comes
to recognizing their Empire or their Interests.
Handlers themselves want Sharia.
The problem is that GHQ is not a monoliths.
They have to serve two master at the same time.
It would be simpler for the two GHQ factions to split
and have open civil war but that is not going to happen
so instead you have slow burn.
After Americans leave the militants will be pushed
to Afghanistan and Kashmir.
The real question is how will GHQ get the funding for
this great adventure now the US will not providing coalition
funds. and what will Americans do about it.
Omar could not be more correct. I do have one beef to pick with Omar. You are a little too consumer with some of these liberal Pakistani know nothings. The inability or unwillingness of South Asian academic scholars or other Pakistani liberals to understand the nature of these killers is not the reason Pakistan cannot protect its minorities. Yes, the liberal Pakistani blogger more interested in fighting the ‘empire’ than the Taliban and this is something which is very annoying and a major nuisance. However, he is only a nuisance to people like us who actually read these fools and who debate with them. In the real world in Pakistan, the security agencies, conniving politicians and their enablers in the media are not really influenced by seminars on imperialism at NYU. So yes, it is very satisfying to mock these people – however, we also need to realize that they control nothing, influence nobody, and are completely irrelevant. Our focus on them, however small, is a little misplaced.
Sorry for the typos: edited: Omar could not be more correct. I do have a beef to pick with Omar. You are a little too consumed with some of these liberal Pakistani know nothings. The inability or unwillingness of South Asian academic scholars or other Pakistani liberals to understand the nature of these killers is not the reason Pakistan cannot protect its minorities. Yes, the liberal Pakistani blogger is more interested in fighting the ‘empire’ than the Taliban and this is something which is very annoying and a major nuisance. However, he is only a nuisance to people like us who actually read these fools and who debate with them. In the real world in Pakistan, the security agencies, conniving politicians and their enablers in the media are not really influenced by seminars on imperialism at NYU. So yes, it is very satisfying to mock these people – however, we also need to realize that they control nothing, influence nobody, and are completely irrelevant. Our focus on them, however small, is a little misplaced.
+1
I recently learned that the eye doctor who was killed along with his son was the uncle of one of my friends (not a close friend) . She’s from a prominent Shia Pakistani family, but basically they have begun the process of disavowing their connections with Pakistan, ie getting the rest of the family out of there, no plans to return, no interest in political situation, nada. I’m sure many families are doing the same.
It would be beneficial for both India and Shia Muslims for India to open its doors, but I don’t see that happening.
Maybe the rest of us are going to seal off the area, stand back and let the slaughter go on unhindered.
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Regarding the use of the word “genocide”:
Recently at LUMS, we had a panel discussion on “Understanding and Resisting Sectarian Violence”. The panel included IA Rehman, the head of HRCP and Ali Dayan Hasan, the head of Human Rights Watch-Pakistan.
There was a discussion about whether the killings of Hazaras (and Shia more generally) can be called a “genocide”. Mr. Dayan Hassan argued that in order to call something a genocide, there is an extremely high burden of proof. Thus far, there are only four cases which are internationally accepted as genocides (The Holocaust, Armenian genocide, Khemer Rouge and Rwanda). We need to be careful not to overuse the word and blunt its impact. For emotional reasons, activists may want to use the phrase “Shia genocide”, but it would be more proper to say that what is happening in Pakistan are targeted and systemic killings. Some elements of the state may be complicit, but there are huge differences between the current situation and the enormous amount of state planning that went into something like the “Final Solution”.
This is not meant to take away from the horror of what’s happening. It just needs to be put in the proper context.
How many djinns can dance on the head of a pin?
This is not my argument. It is the argument of Mr. Ali Dayan Hasan, who is much more of an expert on human rights issues than I am and (I assume) you are.
http://www.hrw.org/bios/ali-dayan-hasan
“Genocide” is a loaded term and it is incumbent on us to use it carefully and in the appropriate contexts. I have noticed on this blog and others that people tend to use the word very loosely (“bengali genocide”, “kashmiri genocide” etc). Recently, I met with Basharat Peer and he said that he would not even use the word “genocide” in the context of Kashmir.
As Mr. Dayan Hassan stated, there are only 4 internally recognized examples of genocide. That should give us some idea of the seriousness of the word.
That Mr. Hasan didn’t consider that which took place in East Pakistan to rise to the level of genocide is telling. Setting aside the 3 million figure, even 300,000 Bengali (overwhelmingly Hindu) deaths is in the ballpark of the Rwandan genocide. As for the Kashmir and Delhi targeted killings, the term “pogrom” fits the bill as the victims were from one community; Kashmiri Pandits or Sikhs, respectively. This term would also apply to the Shia killings happening in Pakistan today. It would be more useful if Mr. Hasan and his campus audience were to organize Sunni protests outside the ivory towers, in solidarity with their terrorized Shia brethren, rather than to quibble over semantics.
It’s not “quibbling over semantics”. To make a case for genocide, you have to convince the International Court of Justice. There is a very high standard of evidence and a high burden of proof, as there should be for an accusation that has such serious consequences.
If you want to use the word “genocide” loosely than one could say that what the Indian Army has done in Kashmir against Kashmiri Muslims may also fall under that category. After all, there is evidence of mass graves and a lot of women who are “half widows” (interesting concept that). The point is that “genocide” should not be used loosely to score political points.
And by the way, there have been protests in Pakistan. There were sit-ins in all major cities, including outside Governor’s House in Lahore. I’m sorry that the international mainstream media doesn’t inform you of these things, only of the negative news.
To make a case for genocide, the legal definition for genocide has to be met. Even american diplomats in 1971 referred to what was going on in Bangladesh as “genocidal actions”. We’ve been over that multiple times. International legal scholars have also pointed to the 1971 war as an example of legal use of force to prevent/end genocide.
To argue that kashmir is anywhere near that is patently ridiculous. If anything, India has gone the other way by refusing to do what pakistan did in POK: flooding it with punjabi colonists. In fact it’s the opposite, with kashmiri hindus being ethnically cleansed from the valley. Also, the estimates of the death toll in kashmir don’t come anywhere near the 3 million dead and 200,000 women raped in Bangladesh.
If you want to use the term genocide loosely, I’m sure what’s been going on in Balochistan (with the daily killing/dumpings) would prob meet the criteria well before Kashmir.
Welcome back Raj. You fully preempted my response. The Baluchis have been straffed and bombed, their lands settled by outsiders, and their natural resources have been exploited by the Pakistani state without them receiving the benefits. In striking contrast Kashmiri Muslims have ethnically cleansed fellow Kashmiris and non-Kashmiris cannot own land there (essentially eating their cake and having it), and they receive enormous amounts of financial aid from the Central Government.
Sam.
Yes, but why is India so weird about it? Why *can’t* India protect the Hindus in Kashmir? I a skeptic of the Pakistani state, but India seems just as rotten. India is a rotten loser country-face it-yeah, so is Pakistan but either way India needs to take its medicine, swallow hard, and either continue to be a shambolic loser or modernize. Pointing to equally loser Pakistan is dumb.
@ Sam, thanks–and sorry for stealing your thunder. Once I see “Baba” blanketing the length of the comment tracker, I just kind of black out into a haze, and wake up to find a bunch of comments by me. jk.
@ Sahar, you’re absolutely right.
Not to step on Sam’s toes again, but the Indian state is even more rotten than its neighbor–there’s no contest. At least there’s strategic orientation and intent on the western side of Wagah. There is none of that with our gang of potbellied, puerile popinjays (apologies for the consonance). Particularly under congress, we’ve seen the perfect storm of venal and ruthless sycophant-fops who never lose a chance to stick it to the majority population to get into “Maydam’s” good graces while selling out the country (Shinde’s recent comments being the perfect example). At least you guys have enough self-respect to not let a foreign barmaid with no education run your country. While pakistanis are clear (perhaps a little too clear) about what and whom their country represents, the pseudo-seculars have done everything they can to de-sanskritise Indian history and culture. The Indian state should represent a tolerant polity that honors its ancient heritage and people while protecting minorities. Both conditions are required, but for our literati, the latter has become the be all and end all of the state. MMS actually said minorities have the first claim on the country’s resources–that is the government India has today.
I know this must be dumbfounding to many around the world–esp in pakistan–but the political methodology of the so-called “secular” parties revolves around keeping hindus disorganized, divided, and uninformed and in patronizing the extreme wing (i.e. owaisi brothers) of the muslim population to consolidate a religious voting bloc. The net result is that innocent liberal and moderate muslims who want to be a part of the Indian story get silenced/marginalized and the unsuspecting hindus continue to turn the other cheek while singing AAA.
The Kashmiri Pandits are a negligible voting bloc, and if other hindus don’t take up their cause, nobody cares (certainly not lady of conscience AR). Even their own KP’s, i.e. Markandey Katju, don’t care.
One critique has been that since India is officially secular, its pols go to great lengths to avoid seeming as though they favor the hindu majority in anyway. There are actually Indians (hindus and muslims) who argue that India’s secular constitution means it can’t be concerned about hindus in pak or take refugees on the basis of religion (completely ignoring the gentleman’s agreement of partition).
The reality is, until this convoluted, mutant travesty of a form of secularism is corrected, KP’s will continue to linger in squalid Jammu camps and India will continue to muddle on.
(This is for Sahar)
“Why *can’t* India protect the Hindus in Kashmir?”
I suspect for the same reason we treat our treat out cities and villages as garbage dump.
Raj wrote:
the estimates of the death toll in kashmir don’t come anywhere near the 3 million dead and 200,000 women raped in Bangladesh.
You are an irrational idiot. If 3 million Bengalis had been killed that would have been internationally ranked as a genocide along with the Jewish, Armenian, Rwandan massacres. It is not, for good reason.
The numbers are wildly exaggerated. There are even claims that a million Biharis were killed by the Mukti Bahini. That too is BS. The numbers were in the tens of thousands, not millions.
“You are an irrational idiot. If 3 million Bengalis had been killed that would have been internationally ranked as a genocide along with the Jewish, Armenian, Rwandan massacres. It is not, for good reason.”
Hey dumbass, anyone who knows anything about the issue knows that there was political pressure by Kissinger and company to cover this up and avoid war crimes trials of pakistanis to avoid embarrassing a key American ally in the Cold war. Just look at all the trouble around the American Congressional resolution on the Armenian Genocide–Turkey’s a key ally.
” The numbers were in the tens of thousands, not millions.”
Yes, deflate the numbers, lie, cheat, steal–that’s what you do best.
Even the lowest estimates of war dead are 300,000–and the mass rapes are well attested. Go home you partisan hack and come back when you have any intellectual integrity–or intellect for that matter.
Just to put it into perspective:
1. The Sunni-Shia conflict has never come close to reaching the levels of brutality and mass murder that the Catholic-Protestant conflict did. The 30 years war between these two christian sects resulted in the slaughter of at least one-third of all Germans, for example.
2. Under Muslim rule the other abrahamic religions, Judaism and Christianity, survived and even thrived, while on the other hand when the Brahmins got the upper hand the other Dharmc religions, Buddhism and Jainism, were practically wiped put.
“Under Muslim rule the other abrahamic religions, Judaism and Christianity, survived and even thrived”
Yes, as evidenced by Anatolia, Syria, Egypt, and North Africa. The Christian populations there thrived and grew by leaps and bounds…
“while on the other hand when the Brahmins got the upper hand the other Dharmc religions, Buddhism and Jainism, were practically wiped put.”
That’s why the buddhists in Afghanistan conquered by arabs/turks remain there to this day, why Odantapuri/Nalanda were there for Bakhtiar Khalji to “renovate” and why buddhists and jains escaped to east and west pakistan for refuge in 1947…
Wah, Baba, what a command of subject matter…
LOL-I think you just “pwned” Baba!
Haha. Don’t worry Sahar, i’m sure he’ll classify this under his list of “victories” and crow about the “sound thrashing” he gave me.
Hope things have been well on your end in nyc/dc or wherever else b-school is taking you these days..
That’s baa baa blech ship for you! LOL
Baba is just one of those Ambedkarites/Neo Buddhists with nothing but poison in his mind and speech. It is a shame both because Ambedkar for all his faults was a genius and IMO should have been our first PM and Neo Buddhists besmirch the name of Buddha.
+1
The genius of Ambedkar, the father of the constitution, was drilled into Indian schoolkids for generations. And then Arun Shourie wrote his devastating expose Worshipping False Gods. While I balked at Shourie’s near hagiography of Gandhi in the book, Ambedkar – indicted by his own writings and words – was not worthy to be PM. Neither was Nehru, but he was still a better choice than Ambedkar. What was truly sad is that many of the brilliant legal minds behind the Indian constitution were given no credit for their efforts, and are totally forgotten today.
Also Jainism today thrives in Gujarat the most “Hinduized” state, in fact vegetarianism of Gujaratis in large part owes to Jains, Jains are an integral part of Gujarati society. The assertion that Hindus and Jains have been antagonistic for any significant part of history will be ludicrous to most of Hindus (exception being the usual BP crowd)
+1
Raj wrote:
That’s why the buddhists in Afghanistan conquered by arabs/turks remain there to this day
What an idiot. When did Buddhists become abrahamics?
Did Christianity and Judaism survive under Muslim rule or not? On the other hand, what happened to the numerous Jains and Buddhists in South India?
I don’t know, please do tell. The little I researched came up with this: http://www.jainworld.com/jainbooks/antiquity/jainsind.htm
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh124.pdf#
Everything points to cunning Brahmins adopting shramanic thought and morphing their own religion to encompass that of the Jains and Buddhists, both of which have always been PhD of religions in history, that were very philosophical, but difficult to digest for the common man. Once royal patronage disappeared, buddhism and Jainism did also.
P.S: I am also a pilgrim on arroyo atthangiko maggo. It is a noble path, not one of bitterness.
Everything points to cunning Brahmins adopting shramanic thought and morphing their own religion to encompass that of the Jains and Buddhists, both of which have always been PhD of religions in history, that were very philosophical, but difficult to digest for the common man.
Brain dead BS excuses for Hindu religious fascism:
1. The common man in numerous countries including Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand, Korea, Japan, China etc had no problem “digesting” Buddhism. According to you the Indian “common man” is too retarded and needs Brahmins to lead him around the nose, making him worship dolls of fictitious characters including monkeys, and paying their hereditary caste to perform futile and nonsensical Vedic sacrifices to imaginary gods.
2. That retarded excuse also does not explain why Jainism and Buddhism completely disappeared in South India, not just among the “common” men.
3. There is plenty evidence that violence was used by the Hindus at the instigation of jealous Brahmins.
4. Adopting shramanic Buddhist/Jain concepts and passing them off as Hindu was cunning, but nothing to be proud of; as Hindus inordinately are about the “defeat” of buddhism. That reveals their base characters. No wonder there is a saying: If you come across a Brahmin and a snake on the road, kill the Brahmin first!
Really, the sheer stupidity of the excuses that these low IQ Hindutva drones repeat brainlessly is mind boggling.
Buddhism and Jainism are too deep and philosophical for the common Indian man….so the cunning Brahmins had to appropriate their concepts and pass it off as Hinduism! This actually makes sense to the moronic miso soup.
And retarded Raj the MB thinks it is perfectly logical what the Hindutva geniuses told him: Hindus killed their widows only to save them from being raped by Muslims!
…….never mind that this heinous “hindu religious custom” is based on hindu scriptures and orthodox Hindus have been killing widows before and after Muslim rule! Never mind also that many orthodox Hindus continue to glorify sati and are clamoring to overturn the 19th century British Law that made it illegal.
Wow you are retarded. Ask any layman Sinhala, Thai, Lao, Cambodian etc. if they know anything about buddhist scriptures beyond Buddham charanam Gacchami and you will know what I talk mean. You are neither Buddhist nor South Indian ar you are illiterate, as you have zero historical knowledge about either topic. Go back to the library and weep on your ignorance.
God you’re an imbecile.
There were hindu kingdoms in Afghanistan well into the advent of Islam–the last notably being the hindu shahi dynasty of Jayapal. Thus, it’s obvious that buddhism continued even under hindu kings, but was wiped out under the muslims who followed (ghaznavids/ghurids).
As for the Jains and buddhists–we’ve been over this multiple times before. There were philosophical debates between the jains, buddhists, and orthodox brahmins. The winner of these debates would agree to accept the other’s philosophies–that’s how buddhism declined in the south and in the indian heartland. The stories of Shankaracharya and Kumarila Bhatta exemplify this. In contrast, we have clear and concrete evidence of Buddhist monks being put to the sword and Buddhist universities and libraries (such as Odantapuri) being destroyed by islamic invaders such as bakhtiar khalji. That’s what makes you look so ridiculous in your one point agenda to attack hinduism.
As for Christianity and Judaism it’s clear the former was extirpated from those areas (i.e. Anatolia was the heartland of the Orthodox Christian Byzantine empire–how has it fared today?) and the latter, well, whither the Jews of Saudi Arabia (to channel Zaid Hamid, “Khaibar solution” anyone?)?
Either way you lose since your exact wording was this: ““Under Muslim rule the other abrahamic religions, Judaism and Christianity, survived and even thrived”.
Don’t try and shift goalposts after getting caught…
There were hindu kingdoms in Afghanistan well into the advent of Islam
What part of “when Brahmins got the upper hand” couldn’t you understand? This reminds me of the time you tried to use the translation of the Ramayana in an Ahom Kingdom in Assam as an example of brahminical broad mindedness to counter the charge of intolerant narrow-mindedness of orthodox Brahmins in the very center of brahminism, Varanasi! Both Afghanistan and Assam lay outside the pale of orthodox brahminism.
Jainism and Buddhism were major, mainstream religions in South India, just as Buddhism still is in Sri Lanka. Their complete annihilation stands as a warning against Hindu/brahminical religious fascism, represented today by the Hindutvadi movement.
As for Christianity and Judaism it’s clear the former was extirpated from those areas
You ignorant fool, Christianity was not “extirpated” from the Byzantine regions that were conquered by Muslims. Nor from North Africa, the Levant, Iberia, Sicily etc. Far from it. Relying on hindutvadi history only makes you look like a complete idiot.
On the other hand wherever Christianity regained its political rule from the Muslims, such as in Spain and Sicily, Islam was completely wiped out. In Spain so was Judaism, with the persecuted Jews escaping to……Muslim-ruled lands.
The “Khaibar Solution” was political not religious. The Jews exiled from the Hjaz ended up under eventual Muslim rule anyway.
“Both Afghanistan and Assam lay outside the pale of orthodox brahminism.”
Hey dumbass, you missed the point again. Wherever there are hindu kingdoms there are brahmins. You can try and weasel out of this, but none of this changes the fact buddhism was preserved under hindu rule only to be wiped out by islam. You can lie, cheat and steal all you want, none of it changes the fact that you look like a moron every time you try and shift goal posts.
Now you’re pathetically trying to restart arguments you lost convincingly by talking about the Ramayan, even though it was an orthodox brahmin in assam who made the translation. You were even debunked on the point about regional languages being marginalized, not realizing that regional languages rose to prominence in precisely that era–hence the translations.
“Jainism and Buddhism were major, mainstream religions in South India, just as Buddhism still is in Sri Lanka. Their complete annihilation stands as a warning against Hindu/brahminical religious fascism, represented today by the Hindutvadi movement.”
Hahaha, man, you just keep digging yourself into that hole. You’ve been given plenty of evidence that jainism and buddhism were philosophically defeated in south india and lost royal patronage. Everyone knows it was islam that annihilated buddhism (see Odantapuri). And if you had any knowledge worthy of mention, you’d know that the qutb minar complex is built on the site of destroyed Jain temples. I think people know the fascists of what religion stand as warning to dharmic faiths.
You were also asked whether or not you were south asian, given the racially tinged comments you were making. You didn’t have the stones to answer that then–why not?
“You ignorant fool, Christianity was not “extirpated” from the Byzantine regions that were conquered by Muslims. Nor from North Africa, the Levant, Iberia, Sicily etc. Far from it. Relying on hindutvadi history only makes you look like a complete idiot.”
Hey dumbass, use facts if you’re going to try and make an argument.
The population of Turkey is 99.8% muslim. Only an ignoramus like you would actually try and argue that christianity was not extirpated. Anatolia was once a great center of orthodox christianity–where is it today? Only your jehadi history prevents you from realizing it.
“On the other hand wherever Christianity regained its political rule from the Muslims, such as in Spain and Sicily, Islam was completely wiped out. ”
None of this changes the fact that Islam took over lands that did not belong to it and forcibly attempted to change the religious character of the people and country.
“The “Khaibar Solution” was political not religious.”
Hey dumbass, you missed the point.
The jews who turned Khaibar into a thriving oasis were expelled. That means the jewish character of it was destroyed, as was the christian character of anatolia, egypt, syria, and north africa. Only a zaid hamid drone like you would try and spin it as a just and humane solution.
God, open a freaking book you historical illiterate and at least have the decency (or self-awareness) to recognize when you’ve been categorically debunked.
You attempted to lay out a juxtaposition of how muslims treated abrahamics and how hindus treated dharmics, and you lost. You can run around in circles as much as you want, but people know you’ve been caught.
Raj,
My whole point was that the word “genocide” should NOT be used loosely! There are only four internationally accepted uses of that word (neither Bangladesh, nor Kashmir, nor Balochistan are among those examples). Indian and Pakistani internet warriors like accusing each other’s countries of committing “genocide”, but that is not a correct use of the word.
It doesn’t take away from the horror of targeted killings of Shias if we refrain from using the word “genocide” in an improper context. That’s all I’m saying.
Kabir,
I agree with your principle about genocide not being used loosely (since you asked elsewhere, it’s one of the reasons AR is loathed), but as I’ve demonstrated to you in the past (a few months ago IIRC), the term genocide has been applied to the events of 1971 by international legal scholars and western diplomats alike.
I’m not saying this to “jump on pakistan”–in fact I’ve been trying to avoid that even before my little hiatus so that people can focus on helping their respective countries rather than racing to the bottom by attacking each other. I’m saying this because what did happen in 1971 does meet the criteria and it should not be clubbed with kashmir (or balochistan for that matter). It’s only by being ruthlessly honest with ourselves that the subcontinent has a prayer of getting out of the mess it’s in–and yes, this applies to India too (malnutrition/hdi, dalits, corrupt gov, etc).
We have too many chest-thumpers on either side who prevent (and undercut) the adults from leading the conversation to helpful and effective policy/political solutions that will help the subcontinent.
Raj,
International legal scholars may have applied the term “genocide” to the events of the civil war in 1971. I’m not going to get into a debate on that.
But as Mr. Dayan Hassan of Human Rights Watch stated there are only 4 INTERNATIONALLY ACCEPTED cases of genocide. Those are: The Holocaust, Armenian genocide, Khmer Rouge, and Rwanda. There is a very high burden of evidence to prove something is a genocide and so far these are the only cases that meet that burden of evidence.
Obviously, I can’t stop anyone from using the term whenever they feel like, but I’m always pushing for using it in the proper context–not to score cheap points on blogs.
Kabir,
International legal scholars have applied it and American diplomats used it (during a distinctly pro-pakistan Presidency). 1971 has been used as legal foundation for the international legal principle R2P. It’s settled whether you wish to accept it or not.
Human Rights Watch does not not have the legal authority or expertise to be viewed as the definitive classifier of genocide. In fact, HRW’s pathetic record on hindu issues alone demonstrates why both it and amnesty are hardly sources of record–certainly on this issue. I know Dayan Hassan is your new Ayesha Jalal, but he’s certainly not an international legal scholar (i.e. the people who are BEST placed to use the term genocide).
The reality is there is more than enough evidence and legal scholarship on Bangladesh in 1971 as a clear example of genocide. My insistence on the use of the term is not to score points–I didn’t even bring it up here–but to get people to face the facts, however politically uncomfortable they may be.
Who died and made Mr. Dayan Hasan the Grand Poohbah?
@Raj “At least you guys have enough self-respect to not let a foreign barmaid with no education run your country.”
Yes, they just rent their country to any John with deep-enough pockets. Let’s face it, SAs, and especially their elites, are insecure whores with little self-esteem. It must be generations of genetic selection for syncopancy at work here.
@ Sam, yeah, I hear ya. And the arab worship is even more pathetic. But at the same time, we have to critique ourselves too.
Unlike most Indians, I don’t like to wash our dirty laundry in public. At the same time, both Sahar and Omar have been open and honest in criticizing their country of origin here–despite opening themselves to attack from their right. I think in this forum we should not be afraid to do the same–Baba’s asinine rantings obviously discourage both sides from coming out of their comfort zones to do the hard reflection–but we shouldn’t be daunted by the insanity of one childish oaf.
Don’t get me wrong, as you guys have seen, I’ll take it to the other side if there are bad faith arguments, but I think the good faith shown by these two bloggers (and Zach’s promotion of free speech despite his own dearly held views) should encourage us to be honest and reflective as well–at least on BP.
I do think you nailed a bullseye with your broadside on the “elite”. I think the way to end this is people on both sides utilizing and taking pride in their common high culture. While Indians have clearly been accepting of muslim contributions, the real test is whether both subcontinental (deracinated) hindus and (Middle east privileging) muslims can also honor and learn from their shared sanskritic heritage and high culture. That’s the only way to rid the people of their sycophantic inferiority complexes and restore some semblance of principled government and political culture.
Not to be cheesy, but I think there’s a lot of wisdom in that line from Braveheart where Wallace lectures one of the Scottish nobles. He says:
“You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom. “
Easy for all of you to sit in your 3-4 bed imaginary mansions in Wisconsin or which ever American “Pindd” you have emigrated too, to talk about Pakistanis and their ill-fated experiment called Pakistan. I am sorry I am not a “Hafiz” of Webster and oxford dictionaries like you, but ill go pure Paki on you and speak my heart out. We are all working for a better Pakistan, Shias, sunnis, qaidianis, christians, hindus, we are all in it to win it!!! A few AK flashing Mullahs wont deter our fate, what we are supposed to achieve, we will achieve. That is not total world domination but a mere hope to live peacefully without hatred and prejudice in our Pakistan. If I being a Shia, having graduated from the UK could come back and work for a better Pakistan so can all of you. So stop sipping your Latte`s, get ur ass up and come back and do something for your country. No matter how “Goora” you become intellectually, you will always be a Paki at the end of the day in the eyes of your pay masters.
“No matter how “Goora” you become intellectually, you will always be a Paki at the end of the day in the eyes of your pay masters.”
This writing is not clear enough. Are some BPites being accused of accepting bit-coins from jews?
regards