Our existence is an offense to moderate Muslims!

I’m really not incredibly invested in these internecine BP conversations, but this kind of comment honestly convinces me of deep incommensurability:

Perhaps if you don’t go around publicly announcing that you are an ex-Muslim, you will face less problems.

There are lots of “Muslims” who barely practice the religion. But for form’s sake, we say that we believe in Allah and in the Prophet of God. Especially if we have family in Muslim countries.

First, I don’t face problems. But I sympathize with people who are being murdered on account of their irreligion in Muslim countries. I have friends who are Bangladeshi immigrants who were friends with people who were murdered for their lack of belief. It’s pretty disturbing.

So why do I announce my atheism? Because in this country I can. I’m an ex-Muslim only from the perspective of Muslims and anti-Muslim racists. The two groups actually agree on a lot. Because Muslims and anti-Muslims assume I’m a Muslim theist of some sort, of course, I have to announce it so they won’t be confused.

It’s my own conceit and privilege to be wedded more to substance than forms. Now, there are American Muslims like Omar Ali who seems at peace with the substance as well as privileges of Western liberalism (I believe the above individual is an American Muslim?). So I’m not going to full Islamophobe, but these sorts of attitudes suggesting it’s more seemly that we irtidads go back into the closet so preserve public sensitivities really make me suspicious of the Submitters.

I guess this sort of exchange has actually made me more sympathetic to “internet Hindus.” When judgment day comes, go with the side less likely to kill you!

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Kabir
5 years ago

You started it with your “Are you going to kill us?” comment. That was disgusting and completely below the belt.

In Islam, if one’s father is Muslim, one is Muslim. If you opt out, you are an apostate. These are not my personal opinions. This is reality. Poor Barack Obama had to keep saying he is a practicing Christian, because his father was Muslim and his middle name is Hussain. Of course, you live in the United States. Nothing is going to happen to you.

Some of us have to live in Pakistan.

Zack
5 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Seriously?

Kabir
5 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Religious beliefs are never false to those who believe them.

You are seriously an obnoxious person. You may be a great “geneticist”, but you are seriously obnoxious.

I am not your “bro” as I believe I have already mentioned. Never condescend to me again.

Kabir
5 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

I don’t care if you go to hell. I am not judging you. God will.

“bro” is a seriously condescending term. I have a name and you can use it.

Kabir
5 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Now, you are just pissing me off. “Bro” is so disrespectful and condescending.

I am neither your employee (though this is “your” blog) nor your “bro”. If you prefer I delete all my posts and go, just say the word “bro”. You are a bully. That is exactly how one should describe “atheists” like you.

AnAn
5 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Kabir, Razib calling you “Kabir bro” is a demonstration of respect and affection.

Kabir
5 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I am no one’s “bro” and I find the use of that term extremely condescending.

Kabir
5 years ago

I really could not care less about you and your issues. Allah will judge. And I am confident that His judgement is far superior to mine, yours, or anyone else’s.

Kabir
5 years ago

One final thing: “Moderate Muslim” is a stupid term. One is either a Muslim or one isn’t.

We don’t speak of “Moderate Christians” or “Moderate Jews”. Why is it assumed that all Muslims are extremists and the one’s who aren’t have to preface “Moderate” before our religion so everyone knows that we aren’t going to go off the deep end?

AnAn
5 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Kabir you are dialoging with people who have studied Islam carefully for much of their lives. I use “moderate” as short hand for muslims who disagree with certain but not all ideas of Ibn Taymiyyah. [And yes we know that Ibn Taymiyyah at times flirted with aspects of what people today might call Sufism.]

One reason that everything is not spelled out is because many nonmuslims are pretty atrocious. Muslims and pro muslim nonmuslims are often accused of sectarianism by nonmuslims. Many nonmuslims also accuse leading muslims and pro muslim nonmuslims of Islamaphobia–albeit less often. Under these circumstances it is much safer to say “moderate muslim” than risk politically correct mind control police. Or threats of violence. I have heard people accuse Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Sistani of Islamaphobia. If even he–who I think you would acknowledge is far greater than either of us–can be accused of such things . . . can you understand the incredible fear most muslims live under?

Kabir
5 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

I am a Cultural Muslim. I sing Hindustani Classical Music. No “Islamist” would do that.

Probably lots of people more Orthodox than me think I am going straight to hell. But again, Allah is the only judge.

I am simply more inclined to be publicly respectful of the views of the Orthodox. Probably an effect of living in Pakistan, a country where one has to be careful what one says if one doesn’t want a blasphemy charge against one.

Xerxes the Magian
5 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I hope the Lord of the MultiVerse is a pretty flexible deity. Would rather follow my atheist spouse into the dark gates of Hell than the pearly gates..

Zack
5 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

“I sing Hindustani Classical Music”

Lots of Pakistani Muslims sing or listen to such music but still hold illiberal views.

Kabir
5 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

It is assumed in the West that all Christians and Jews are “moderate” unless stated otherwise. You say “Evangelical Christians” to distinguish them from “moderate” Christians. All Muslims are “extremists” unless proven otherwise. That is a blatant double standard.

There was a play some years ago called “Corpus Christi” in which Jesus was depicted as gay. Many American Christians lost their minds.

Personally, I am even OK with “The Satanic Verses”. It’s a novel, after all. Yes, naming prostitutes after Rasul-e-Akram’s wives was offensive and gratuitous–but that is the author’s right.It just reflects his bad taste. I don’t think there should have been a fatwa against him or that he was “wajib ul qatal”. Rushdie is a great writer despite his obnoxious politics (and that the literary quality of his novels seems to get progressively worse each time). Though I can understand why someone would hate “Islam” after what he had to go through. However, it was not the fault of “Islam” but of the regime in Iran.

Omar
Omar
5 years ago

I am violating my policy of not arguing with kabir, but I can’t help it.. What is so offensive about “bro”?

Kabir
5 years ago
Reply to  Omar

It is extremely condescending, especially when I have repeatedly asked him not to do it. As we say in Urdu, “Main apka naukar nahi hoon aur apka bhai bhi nahee hoon”.

AnAn
5 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Kabir, this is not a criticism in any way. I really don’t understand you. Life is short. Enjoy mystery. Why waste life feeling offended? If someone tried to offend me; that has nothing to do with me and should not affect me.

bharata bharatavanshi
bharata bharatavanshi
5 years ago

/@razib
I guess this sort of exchange has actually made me more sympathetic to “internet Hindus.” When judgment day comes, go with the side less likely to kill you!/

The most successful tactic used to convince people to join Hindutva is not theological, it is to point at others, especially Islam. However, Indian right wing is not evolved, has missed out on enlightenment, has no conservative principles like in west. They are dumber than one could hope for and they dont realize this , nor do they accept this even when pointed to. They have a serious competence problem. That means, eventually things might go really bad. In absence of competence, its just tribal war all around. what good is democracy in absence of competence to sort out the fundamental problems?. Eventually, “safety over freedoms” trade will happen , and it wont work in the way I hope for either. I realize that now, so I have given up on hope.

My own journey began as a liberal who joined internet to convince fellow Hindus to turn liberal, I was instead turned into becoming conservative until I left. That is not who I am personally and not who I intended or intend to be. My reasoning was exactly the same. “pick the side less likely to kill you.”

Singh
Singh
5 years ago

Enlightenment values are literal cancer।।

Prashanth
Prashanth
5 years ago

Oh! some of the references to god here has opened my mouth quite wide. I am unable to properly close it still!

Prashanth
Prashanth
5 years ago

I agree with Kabir that Razib Khan is quite offensive. But then, I like it that way; shows me he has very little to hide.

Xerxes the Magian
5 years ago
Reply to  Prashanth

That is a good point – for instance in my personal experience I have always had trouble with my ethnic communities; Persian Bahais & Pakistanis.

PBs are very silky and Paks are super-friendly initially but then relationships can be very rocky because then one discovers what is behind the face.

It was interesting at my wedding on my side; the Persian Bahá’í & Pakistani combined quotient was much lower. However the non-Bahá’í Persian was very high, I have wanted to write on this but when I can Structure my thoughts..

AnAn
5 years ago

Razib, I have encountered some Sufi Deobandi. There are many sects within Deobandi. But then you probably know a heck of a lot about the Deobandi. A question for you; have you met Bengali Deobandi?

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