Only in the Land of the Pure

The reality in Pakistan and India may (or may not) be the same however the political and philosophical aspirations of the two societies are in entirely different directions.

There may be many families in India who would disown their child for marrying outside of caste & religion however none of them would have the temerity to post it publicly in a newspaper. In Pakistani culture the shame isn’t on the parents for doing so but the young man for marrying out.

I was going to remove my previous post as it was quite incendiary and with Aasia extradited but Paki liberals need to be shamed into action.

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30 thoughts on “Only in the Land of the Pure”

  1. The stranger thing is there are still hindus living in Abbottabad. LOL. Must be a real brave man to convert to Hinduism in Pakistan

    In India the disowning happens mostly from the girl side since the girl usually converts. But after a while there is reconciliation, once they have kids and all.

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  2. Take it coolly. So what if they make a song and dance about disowning. More pertinent is how the newly married couple are adjusting. Most probably they are outside Pakistan. If the couple are inside Pakistan and lead a normal social life, that would mark a turning point in the country

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    1. Interested to know where on the spectrum of “entirely normal and common” to “one of a kind” this particular conversion fits. Would the couple’s lives be in danger for this ?

      Instances of cross-religious marriages where neither person converts are fairly common in India.

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      1. Thats only for one generation though. The way our civil laws are different, lot of inheritance , property etc are decided upon the faith of the person. So sooner or later you have to choose/convert to one faith. It does not necessarily worry the upper class, but in lot of middle-to lower middle class inter faith marriage this things matter.

        One of my friend used the Succession act to disinherit her sister. She had just done the Nikah, and had not sort of “converted” in that sense. But that was enough to prove that she had converted and she was disinherited.

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          1. A lot depends upon case to case basis unless its a verdict by a Supreme court. You can have HC giving different judgement depending on the state. For example Kerala, AP , TN, Maharashtra HCs have given different judgement on muslim sub quota wrt to education and jobs at different time.

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      1. I try to see independently if its right or wrong or will take time to decide B4 looking for motives. And yes once motives are taken into account, one can even go against what is right as well provided there is enough reason. As to your question, I think yes. They all do.

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  3. seThI ~ Skt. shreSThin

    m. an eminent artisan, the head or chief of an association following the same trade or industry, the president or foreman of a guild

    Even in Islam their caste governs the family behaviour. A Jatt or Rajput family would be far more likely to have taken the girl away and forced her to convert and marry her beau.

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    1. Do muslim rajput also use the same origin story aka Chandravasnha ,Suryavansh etc? LOL. it would be difficult juggling Lakshman with Bin Qasim

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  4. As you pointed out in your post, there are many families in India where the parents would be quite upset if their child married someone “unsuitable”, whether that was because of caste or religion. Both countries are fairly socially conservative.

    Publishing a notice publically disowning your child does seem a bit bizarre, but perhaps there are some legal reasons for that step.

    I don’t quite get why we need to “shame” Pakistani liberals. They are doing the best they can in an extremely hostile environment. Maybe they don’t come up to Western standards of liberalism, but Pakistan is not the West.

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    1. Kabir, India’s values have degraded. Money is king:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHZFYpQ6nc
      If daughter or son comes home with a rich person, nothing else matters. Family celebrates.

      For that matter if Indian son brings home one of the Obama daughters or Ivanka’s son (after he grows up), Indian families will welcome them.

      “Both countries are fairly socially conservative.” Yes this is true. But few families actually ex-communicate their children if they marry someone they don’t like. Moha or attachment to children is too strong.

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      1. Hi AnAn,

        Can I request you to make a post on what the Hindu Rashtra actually is?
        I’m confused on this due to having come across different opinions. Is it actually what it is perceived to be?

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      2. “Few families actually ex-communicate their children if they marry someone they don’t like”. This is not quite true. There are many cases of families killing couples where one was a Dalit. There was also the Hadiya case where a Hindu girl in Kerala married a Muslim man and converted and her father locked her up at home and refused to recognize her marriage. This case went all the way to the Indian Supreme Court, which restored her marriage.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadiya_court_case

        The point is that caste and religion are important in India as well, not just in Pakistan.

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        1. Despite Google’s impressive abilities, the fact remains that there are many cases in India of conversions away from Hinduism that are accepted by parents and society. Are there ANY examples of conversions away from Islam in Pakistan that are similarly accepted ? (Not a rhetorical question)

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          1. I was only responding to Anan’s claim that few Indian families would ex-communicate their children for marrying outside of caste or religion. I think the cited case proves my point.

            Regarding your question, the answer lies in the differences between Hinduism and Islam. It is technically not possible to convert out of Islam if one was born a Muslim (or even if one’s father is a Muslim). Such people are considered “apostates” and, according to some interpretations, are liable to be killed. Even if a family is inclined to accept their child’s change of belief, they would not want it made publically known, for obvious reasons. This is not a Pakistan-specific issue though, but a matter of Islamic doctrine.

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          2. Arjun,

            In the smritis such as Dharma Shastra and Bhishma’s speech on the bed of arrows, families can choose to end contact with their children if they leave Dharma [become a bad person or renounce their heritage]. In which case their property rights are reduced. But they still have limited inheritance rights.

            Note that becoming Buddhist, Jain, Ajivika (similar to Sam Harris) Chaarvaaka (atheist), or Sikh would not be considered leaving Hinduism, since they are considered part of Sanathana Dharma.

            Leaving the faith would probably mean renouncing the principle of being in an open architecture open source ecosystem and renouncing mutual respect.

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
            Dheeraj,

            Two have been written. Many more are planned. I am in contact with several Hindu practitioner Indologist academics.
            http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/10/20/hinduttva-a/
            I would be curious to hear your thoughts if you are willing to share.

            The hard Hindu right perhaps means those who push for people to accept an open architecture open source ecosystem and mutual respect. This is deeply controversial among Hindus. Because while Dharma means to love, honor, respect and experience the divinity in our enemies, those who harm us, those who do not respect us, those who do not love us; the idea of asking others to respect us (or not be sectarian, racist, bigoted, prejudiced, hegemonic, imperialist, exploitative, oppressive towards us) is a very new idea.

            The idea of being a Hindu is nebulous since anyone who says they are a Hindu is one. However, perhaps I understand the modern idea of asking all Hindu to accept an open architecture open source ecosystem and mutual respect. [Which works great for Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Chaarvaakas, Ajivikas, Bon, Sarnism] [The “Council of Dharmic Faiths” (UK) regards Zoroastrianism, whilst not originating in the Indian subcontinent, also as a Dharmic religion. What do Zorastrians think about this?]

            But I don’t agree about asking others to respect me or us. The person who came up with this idea might be Rajiv Malhotra. From my perspective everyone is divine and everyone is free. Everyone has the right to disrespect, dishonor, disagree, not love, be racist/sectarian/ racist/bigoted/prejudiced/hegemonic/imperialist/exploitative/oppressive towards me. I respect and love them as divine and respect their freedom of art, thought, intuition and feeling to make their own choices. Just as we have the right to make our choices based on the choices of others.

            Is this what Hinduttva is?

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        2. Kabir, you can select a better case than this.

          In this case a girl is alleged to have associated with Daesh friends and a Daesh husband. As in Daesh the global terrorist group committed to conquering the ruling the world.

          Her family insisted that she was not of sound mind (low IQ developmentally disabled perhaps . . . she failed her 12th standard exam on her first try . . . passing India’s 12th standard exam is a joke). Her family likely intervened in part because she was joining a Jihadi Islamist organization with international links.

          It does seem odd that a girl would link up with an extremist Hanbali Salafi Wahhabi group.

          She comes from an atheist family. If she had married a Sufi or liberal Sunni/Shiite, it is unlikely her family would have responded the same way. She would not have been subject to the same rules. For example she was forced to wear Hijab (not in the holy Koran and not required by Sufis , Irfan Sufi Shiites or liberal muslims), and avoid her grandfather’s funeral.

          ” her family argued that she is the victim of love jihad, and court annulled her marriage with the observation that she was a “weak and vulnerable girl capable of being exploited”.[30] Court also said in its order that “Shefin Jahan is one such person who has been assigned to play the role of going through a sham of a marriage with Ms. Akhila, with the object of transporting her out of India.”[2]”

          Ultimately the courts ruled that she was of sound mind, in control of her faculties and was able to convert to Wahhabi Hanbali Salafi Islam. She was also allowed to marry and associate with people who are alleged to be members of Daesh.

          The marriage, it appears to me, was not a love marriage but one her Wahhabi Jihadi friends foisted on her for their own reasons.

          Under these circumstances, many Sufi parents, Shiite parents, liberal Sunni parents would likely have responded in a similar way. Wahhabis consider Sufis, Shiites and liberal Sunnis to be apostates.

          This is a very sad story.

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          1. Regardless of the specific details of the case, the point is that the Supreme Court of India had to decide whether an adult woman had the right to a)marry whom she pleased and b)convert to Islam. Whether her husband is a Wahabbi or not is really not germane to this point. His alleged links to terrorism are a different issue and have nothing to do with the legality of her marriage. Neither do sectarian differences within Islam.

            This example counters your claim that Indian families don’t disown their children when they marry outside caste or religion or that “money is everything”. Clearly this father felt very strongly about the fact that his daughter married a Muslim man and changed her faith. This is not a Pakistan or Islam specific issue.

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          2. The sectarian differences within Islam are not irrelevant. The reason her family intervened likely had less to do with Islam and far more to do with joining extreme Jihadi Islamist Wahhabis–who are suspected of being part of Daesh.

            Wahhabis who believe in a global caliphate the rules the world are extremely different from Baha’i, Ahmedi, Sufis, Irfan Sufi Shiites, liberal Shiites, liberal Sunnis. There is such a thing as Bharatiya Islam or Indian Islam. Wahhabis loyal to an Arab colonialist global caliphate are not that.

            Many Indian muslim families would behave the same way under these circumstances. They were trying to save their daughter and keep her away from what her family thought were Daesh–or at least international Jihadi Islamist networks.

            You chose a “TERRIBLE” example to make your point. India is a country of 1.36 billion people–plenty of whom are psychos. Choose another example.

            I know plenty of Indians who have married muslims. Granted these are Hindu muslims or liberal muslims in every case. Heck I know plenty of Hindus who have married Pakistani muslims too (also liberal muslims in every case).

            India is not the caricature you make India out to be. For example if a daughter brings home her liberal muslim classmate from IIT, how many Indian families will stand in the way? Few (I don’t know any to be honest). Bring home a crazy looking Wahhabi . . . most Indian muslim and nonmuslim families would be horrified. And with cause.

            If your niece brought home a scary looking Jihadi Islamist Wahhabi boyfriend and told you she wanted to marry him–would you be happy? Or would you have a talk with the niece you dearly love.

            If she asked you for help to present her new boyfriend to her family and help her sanitize her chosen life partner with the family; what would you do?

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          3. Of course there are Hindu families in India who would be OK with their daughter marrying a Muslim. No one said there aren’t. But there are also families like Hadiya’s who went to court to get the marriage annulled. You are speculating as to what exactly their reasons were.

            My hypothethical niece would be an adult and thus have a right to marry whoever she chose, regardless of whether anyone else approved or not. Your opinions about Wahaabis are neither here nor there. A court would need to prove that Hadiya’s husband is a terrorist. Otherwise he is entitled to his religious views, however distasteful you or I may find them.

            The case contradicts your claim that some Indian families would not disown their child for marrying out of caste or religion. I’ve made my point. The whole issue of this blogpost is not Pakistan-specific and that’s the bottom line.

            Zack,

            I hope that if there was a similar case in Pakistan, the Supreme Court would recognize an adult woman’s right to make her own decisions. That seems the only sensible course to me.

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  5. I find it hard to believe that a Muslim man can apostate and convert to a different religion – presumably Hinduism, and all his family can do is disown him. That is quite astonishing tbf. There is certainly more to this story than what meets the eye.

    Is it possible that instead of the man, it is the woman who has converted to Islam. But the man’s family not being happy about the situation anyway, is actually setting him up as a bait for freelance Jihadis.

    I know I am being dyed to the bone cynic, but is there any single authentic case of a person apostatizing from Islam and still living out his life peacefully in Pakistan? Who are they fooling.

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    1. True. I too doubt that. Not in abottabad of all places. A remote possibility in urban Sindh where there is safety in numbers. What would you really get by converting to Hinduism apart from painting a giant bullseye. A Hindu Muslim Sindhi couple I know but they are upper class and still had since migrated to USA. But frankly the Sindhi hindu boy still has this Muslim bjp supporter type of syndrome wrt to Pakistan

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    2. tru, believing media or these kinds of declaration shudnt be taken at face value.

      For that, you win, the out of box smart comment of the day contest.

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    3. If the woman had converted to Islam, why would the family be so upset that they would disown their child? Bringing new believers into the faith is considered to be a good thing among certain Muslims.

      That said, the story does sound kind of bizarre. It’s especially odd to see such a notice among advertisments for rental housing.

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