37 thoughts on “The Jatts do descend from Scythians”

  1. Two questions :-

    1. The Scythians samples we have so far are all characterised by heavy East Asian & possibly Siberian admixture. Do we see that among the Jatts & Rors ?

    2. Could the latest date of west eur – South eur admixture as per Adler not be because of the Rors admixing with an AASI heavy group from further inland ?

    0
  2. 1. The Scythians samples we have so far are all characterised by heavy East Asian & possibly Siberian admixture. Do we see that among the Jatts & Rors ?

    i should have put quotes. i have no idea who these ‘scythians’ are. but it’s something weird. i just used the word scythians since the jatts use that word.

    2. Could the latest date of west eur – South eur admixture as per Adler not be because of the Rors admixing with an AASI heavy group from further inland ?

    yeah. if i get what you are saying the proto-jatt have a group without any ASI (or almost so) and then mix later. this is possible. seems to indicate LOTS of structure, more than we see today, but it’s possible.

    0
    1. Yes, I agree the 50 generations ago admixture event seems to be when the Ror picked up more AASI type ancestry. That seems a lot more probable than admixture with any western source as nothing entered Haryana around that time, historically speaking.

      The AASI could even have been picked up by marital alliances with the neighboring Gujjars, who do seem to be more southern shifted compared to the Ror

      0
  3. It looks like these “scythians” are mostly the AMT/AIT type folks rather than Kanishka/White huns folks. Is there any major population/ demographic change post Guptas ? I ask because i read about a theory that the Rajputs are also descended of some “foreigners”? Is this supported by genetic data?

    0
      1. All the ancient Scythians samples that we have so far have East Asian admixture. And we have Scythians samples from a vast geographic region so it looks unlikely that there was a Scythian group somewhere hidden substantially different from what we have so far.

        This is one of the reasons, Narasimhan et al rule out steppe migration into South Asia from groups later than 1500 BC because they begin to show East Asian admixture from that time onwards.

        0
      2. Because they do, especially after 1200 BC (iron age). All Iron age central Asian migrants have elevated east Asian (or Siberian), making it difficult to sympathize with iron age central Asian intrusion into India less likely.

        https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615
        “We therefore considered an alternative model in which we treat them as a mix of Yamnaya and the Han (Supplementary Table 25). This model fits all of the Iron Age Scythian groups, consistent with these groups having ancestry related to East Asians not found in the other populations. Alternatively, the Iron Age Scythian groups can also be modelled as a mix of Yamnaya and the north Siberian Nganasan “

        0
    1. Kanishka may actually be very similar to the Ror as he comes from Loulan, which is a corrupt form of Roran (refer to Professor Luders’ work on transference of the name Roruka from the Indus valley to the Tarim Basin)

      0
  4. I think Pakistanis are White Europeans and Indians are Black Indians.

    chakk day phattay
    napp day killi
    subah lahoray
    shamm nun dilli

    Ya Allah! Labbaik ya Rasul Allah!
    I have finally seen the noor-ul Islam again. I am Muslim again, alhamdullilah!

    #TakbeerAllahHuAkbar

    7+
      1. To me the Maratha origin theory always sounded dubious. Come to think of it, Battle of Panipat (1761 AD) is not that far back in History. In fact when Grant Duff wrote his famous History of Mahrattas in 1826 AD, which can be considered a modern era text, he was able to interview an actual Maratha survivor of the battle.

        A momentous historical event like a mega-battle will easily survive in the cultural memory of a people for multiple centuries. For example, Sikhs remember abundant and specific details about their various battles with Ahmad Shah Abdali, which were fought in generally the same period in history. In comparison, Rors do not remember even a single detail about the Battle, apart from the general claim of being the descendant of the soldiers of this battle. The genetic study simply validates which was obvious to keen observers.

        That aside, more such studies can help clear the fog around the origins of many such novel communities, such as Koorgis of Karnataka and Chitpawans of Konkan, which have all claimed fancy foreign origins.

        0
  5. I realized it only after I had a second look at the authors’ list for the paper, that its second author is Anurag Kadian, a close personal friend of mine.

    I have spent years discussing this topic threadbare with him. He collaborated with Toomas Kivisild in Cam, while doing his MBA at Judge… If he’s reading this blog: nice work Kaddu!

    1+
    1. Thanks for pointing that out! Name (and nickname) rang a bell, so I checked him out, and we were contemporaries back in college (not the same class though.) I wouldn’t have expected an engineering grad to write a genetics paper, but I guess it exhibits his versatility.

      Small world.

      1+
      1. Goodness me! Kaddu was with me at Kgp and then later my PhD coincided with his MBA at Judge.

        If by “college” you mean IIT as opposed to rimco, it seems we are contemporaries too 🙂 Which hall of residence?

        PS: Kaddu is a Renaissance man, if ever there was one. Ranked #1 in NDA (terrific OLQs), Grasim Mr India finalist, and could produce ultey chhakkey (his expression for a GPA of 9.0 or above) seemingly at will. He is an old and dear friend.

        1+
        1. Yep, Kgp Class of 2001, LLR Hall. I was one year senior to him. What class (and hall) were you in?

          I have no doubt we (and Kaddu) have Facebook friends in common. 🙂 And now that my memory has refreshed a bit more, I do recall him as having serious academic prowess.

          1+
          1. I’m ’03 / RP.

            Since you were at LLR that explains how you knew Kaddu…. 🙂

            (Since you were at LLR I presume you know Appu and Khokhar too?)

            1+
          2. So looks like your batchmate is being published in science journals, and you are being published in a blog haunted by ne’er-do-wells and crank historians 🙂

            0
          3. I’m probably both!

            Slapstik seems to have done pretty well out of life; banking, physics, family, politics and linguistics..

            Can’t ask for much more than that!

            1+
          4. @snake charmer

            I never had terribly high expectations of myself mate 🙂

            You remind me of random mohalley waley uncle-ji 😁Bachchey dekho Verma ji ka ladka kahaN pahunch gya aur tum abhi bhi yahaN gappeiN maar rahey ho…

            3+
  6. Are Scythians from sistan and Baloch province Iran?

    Are they the same as the sakas that sent a large army to fight in the Mahabharata war? They fought under the leadership of kamboja king sudakshina–king of Turin.

    0
    1. I think we are looking at the Kauravas and Pandavas here rather than any participating hordes such as the Kambojas or Sakas

      I may be wrong but that’s what I think

      2+
        1. I’m not denying the role played by any supporting groups in the war itself but rather basing my view on the archaeological evidence reported on the subject population till date.

          The two reports of the ASI that relate excavated ancient forts to the Rors are the 1871 report from the Agra circle and 2004-05 report from the Baghpat area (very close to historical Hastinapur and pretty much a part of the ancient Kuru region).

          The other thing I mentioned about professor Luders’ work that shows a migration from Indus valley to Tarim Basin also ties in with historical Uttar Kuru (North Kuru)

          0
          1. Very interesting Anurag. You are bright.

            The Mahabharata is a dramatized and exaggerated telling of historic events, a type of historical fiction if you will, albeit I believe with a lot of actual history embedded. It only relates to a few currents at one time in history. 99.99% of history is not directly covered. [Including everything before and after the story of the great Bharata–Shantanu to the passing of Krishna.]

            Therefore the Mahabharata does not tell us about many important aspects of history.

            “The two reports of the ASI that relate excavated ancient forts to the Rors are the 1871 report from the Agra circle and 2004-05 report from the Baghpat area (very close to historical Hastinapur and pretty much a part of the ancient Kuru region).”

            I am not certain that this was the actual site of the ancient Kurukshetra battle. There were many great wars and battles fought near Kurkshetra (both before, during and after the Mahabharata)

            This said, I look forward to learning what archeologists and scientists find with great interest.

            The other thing I mentioned about professor Luders’ work that shows a migration from Indus valley to Tarim Basin also ties in with historical Uttar Kuru (North Kuru)

            Tried to summarize an infinitesimally small portion of the narrative stories about Uttara Kuru here:

            http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/07/18/kailasha-and-narodnaya-central-to-arya-culture/

            Where do you think Mt Soma was? Siberia? Europe?

            0
  7. the huns (from the baltic region) invaded many parts of the world, including india.
    As most invaders they bred with the local females

    0
    1. Sara, do you think the Hun became Arya and twice born after coming to Arya Varsha? What “Gotra” were they given? It appears that many immigrant groups became incorporated into the Arya system. Many were also incorporated into twice born systems.

      0
  8. Hi AnAn,

    I agree with the identification of Mount Mujavat, from where came the best Soma, with Muztagh Ata. The reason being it more or less supports my idea of Proto-Aryas having migrated from Indus Valley (Roruka) to the Tarim Basin area.

    Loulan (Roran) has been known to have yielded a lot of Vedic texts and related materials in past explorations apart from the famous mummies.

    The location of Muztagh Ata at the northern side of the Tibetan plateau pretty much makes it easily accessible via a route running from the Sindhu-Saraswati area to East Turkestan. There might have been a route bifurcation that led exactly to Muztagh Ata but the basic point I’m getting at is that the broad region of Tibet and Xinjiang was well known to these people

    1+
    1. Fascinating hypotheses. I need to reflect on this.

      One point to remember is that Soma is described as far from any known places. This is not to imply that your hypothesis on Muztagh Ata is wrong.

      A question if I might?

      What do you think Tushara refers to? I don’t know for sure. But I think this might be how “EPIC” period (Ramayana to Mahabharata) SAARC referred to Xinjiang. Alternatively this could be the ancient SAARC name for China . . . but that is a larger claim since we don’t know for sure that there were large trading and information transfer routes between China and SAARC during the “EPIC” historical period.

      Wrote about the ancient Arya historic connection between Xinjiang and SAARC and Turin:
      http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/07/14/afghanistans-history/

      Excuse my ignorance . . . is Xinjian part of historic Turin? When I refer to historic Turin I implicitly include Xinjiang.

      0
    2. Anurag Uvach:

      “The location of Muztagh Ata at the northern side of the Tibetan plateau pretty much makes it easily accessible via a route running from the Sindhu-Saraswati area to East Turkestan.”

      Russian Linguist Igor Tonoyan Belayev is already on to this migration route based on Tibetan phonological and morphological similarities.

      https://www.academia.edu/35493286/A_brief_note_on_the_two_older_Indo-European_words_for_earth_and_man_as_compared_to_Tibetan_-_2017

      “A brief note on the two older Indo-European words – for “earth” and “man” as compared to Tibetan – 2017″

      In his own words:

      “We propose here a very special thing. Modern mainstream researchers in Indo-European studies take more and more shots at connecting proto-Indo-European originally to North Caucasian languages even to a degree of sprachbund though the basic phological (sic) systems and morpheme structures of the two systems are completely different. On the other hand Tibeto-Burman basic phonology and reconstructed morphology is “suspiciously” similar to that reconstructed for proto-Indo-European (in many respects).”

      Mayuresh Kelkar

      1+

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.