Well it’s not quite as simple as “elite” and “prole”. We have what you could call professional classes (doctors, lawyers, engineers, civil servants, professors). This is the class to which my family belongs. We are not among the landed elite.

But fundamentally the views of the “middle class” on foreign policy don’t matter. The Army makes all foreign and security-related policy. India policy comes under national security policy. That is not going to change in the foreseeable future.

Also, you seem to not recognize that Pakistan has a principled position on Kashmir (one with which India obviously disagrees). The dispute will not be resolved until India, Pakistan, and Kashmiris come to the table and hammer out a solution that is acceptable to all. The status quo is not that solution. It may work for India and for Pakistan, but it doesn’t work for Kashmiris in the Valley (except for the Abdullahs and the Muftis, who are happy to take turns in power).

So I guess its a mixture of 1 and 3.

I guess any follow up question is moot until the middle class actually grows in size.

“I assume you are accusing me of being from an uncultured Shudra/Dalit heritage”

Precisely the opposite. I think you have a lot of class and character. You have the gritty wisdom of many life times. And learned well from the school of hard knocks.

I recently learned on BP that PM Modi is a Shudra. [Is this true?] Many of the most respected people in Indian religious communities are Shudra/Dalit. Their spiritual achievement makes them either de facto Brahmin or someone who transcends Varna altogether.

“The cultured just have extra marital relations with the house niggers.”
Anyone who practices sexual harassment does not deserve to be called “cultured”.

Hagar was a different situation. About 1/4 of couples naturally have a hard time conceiving. As a result ancient cultures set up coping mechanisms for fertility. Sarah arranged Hagar because Sarah wanted to have a child. However after Ishmael was born Hagar didn’t let Sarah raise Ishmael as her own; which led to the tension.

Hi Vikram, I venture to address your question because the answer is clear cut and not controversial.

From what I have read else ware and what Kabir repeatedly said on this blog, Pakistan has arranged its society as elite and prole (blue-collar working class). Elite by definition are not middle class; they are the top of the heap. So one of your assertions, “Pakistani middle classes are simply miniscule in number with no political potency at all.” is the obvious answer. This is purely an economic assessment with no theological implications.

I don’t think the “middle class” in Pakistan is that significant.Army runs the show and Army will continue running the show for the foreseeable future.

In any case, most Pakistanis probably don’t think too much about Kashmir. But the consensus across all political parties is that Indian “J & K” is Occupied and we need to help Kashmiri Muslims to free themselves from Hindu India. If “Occupied” offends you (though since you constantly call our Kashmir “POK” it shouldn’t), certainly we can all recognize the reality that it is a Disputed Territory. Whether helping Kashmiri Muslims means supporting armed struggle or working towards a diplomatic solution is a matter of debate. Though since India isn’t interested in a diplomatic solution but rather in crushing the Kashmiris by force, it seems rather to be a moot point.

Nawaz is being targeted because the Army doesn’t like him. I don’t think India is a big factor in why they don’t like him. There are internal developments in Pakistan that are far more significant.

I have no idea why we are discussing sexual harassment of servants.

My comment (which seems like it was deleted) was only to say that there is no real “middle class” in Pakistan. You either have servants or you are a servant. Maybe small shopkeepers can be considered middle class.

In any case, servants are not slaves. They are employees contracted to do a specific job (cook, drive the car, clean the house, whatever it may be). They are paid a monthly salary and given room and board. They eat the food that they make in the house. My family has always treated servants with great decency. So has every other family I have interacted with. It is nothing like plantation slavery and whoever thinks it is has no idea about what Pakistan is like.

AnAn,

I assume you are accusing me of being from an uncultured Shudra/Dalit heritage because our family friends/relatives fucked the house niggers.

No question, uncultured families horribly treat (i.e. bong) the house niggers.

The cultured just have extra marital relations with the house niggers.

The oldest recorded is Abraham who fucked the Hagar. Hagar was Abrahams wife Sarahs hand maiden. Hand maiden is just another word house Negress. When Haga had a child (Ishmael) , Abraham chased out Hagar into the desert. Ishmael is considered the ancestor of the Arabs.

AnAn you should tell your Jewish pals, they are uncultured because their ancestor fucked the house Negress and then chased her out because she had a child.

Thanks hoipolloi. I would really like Pakistani commentators to provide their opinion on whether:

1) Pakistani middle classes are simply miniscule in number with no political potency at all.
2) Significant in number but unconvinced about the economic and social benefits of not approving of armed struggle in Kashmir.
3) Aware of the economic and social upshots, but prepared to forego these due to their convictions.

I didn’t know that sexual harassment was that serious a challenge. Would you say it happens to 10% of servants? Does it happen more to male servants or to female servants?

Kabir correctly decried sexual harassment of slaves in the deep American south before 1861. My suspicious, however, is that family, community, church moral pressure stopped a lot of abuse. Plus a lot of men didn’t want to go to hell when they died or were afraid of feeling guilty. The deep south had a deep powerful “gentlemen” culture in the upper middle class and rich people (only they owned slaves) back in those days. As a result most of the sexual abuse of slaves was not by slave owners. [Often by family, extended family or friends of the owner, in many cases without the knowledge of the slave owner.]

The same was probably true among the cultured spiritual values oriented sophisticated Indian/Sri Lankan upper class. However, when people who didn’t belong to this upper cultured class had servants, in many cases they behaved atrociously with servants. I have seen it and heard about it.

My own feeling is that the abuse of servants is much worse among large swats of Indians and Sri Lankans who have servants than it was with slave owners in the deep Americans south pre 1861. I can’t prove it though.

Some Indians in my extended family and friend circle have multi-generational servants. The children are raised alongside the family children and are treated as part of the family. Usually the family pays for their college education. However they keep visiting. Whenever I visit family and friends in India–I see the later generations of the “servant” families visiting. They often help out my older relatives and friends in India too. However they are dying out since the servant kids usually go to college (which the host family pays for) and then leave the servant profession.

In Indian weddings, often the servant families help out a lot. Including in organization. In many cases they are no longer “servants” but college educated and part of the family so to speak.

When I use to visit India as a kid, I would sometimes tutor the servant children in the school work. In some cases these were no longer servants but the descendants of servants.

Often the “servant” families then bring relatives from home village to replace them. Who in turn go to college. These are in turn replaced by yet more relatives from home village. If any of these new servants misbehave, their college educated or professional (some have businesses and don’t go to college) relative comes and scolds them

But I think what I am describing only applies to some multi-generational servants. I have long feared that Indian servants are horribly treated by uncultured families. My relatives and friends constantly discuss this and are worried by this.