With the persistence of a system of oppression as pernicious as caste, India doesn't need any help from anyone humiliating itself. #SmashBrahminicalPatriarchy
— Vivek (@vivekster) November 21, 2018
In the podcast Razib touched on Indian-American SJWs who he found offensive (I hope I’m not mixing or misquoting him). I am just shocked by the above tweet!
At a Google News conference I heard a moving presentation by a Dalit man who pointed out that almost all US tech company hires of Indians were hires of Brahmin, in essence gaining diversity points in our country while perpetuating a caste system in theirs?????? https://t.co/6F21jEX0zQ
— Clara Jeffery (@ClaraJeffery) November 20, 2018
I am pro-Dalit and I stand with them. However India must not be humiliated by the West and follow China’s example.
The future doesn’t look good for India’s upper castes; they’ve migrated, intermarried or are barren.
The irony is that only the Parsis are allowed to “complain” or do something about their demographic survival.
But the same thing that’s happening to the Parsis is also happening to Kashmiri Pandits (my Pandit friend is one of 6 cousins who are in their 30/40’s and have two children between them), Sindhis and I’m sure other castes.
This constant vilification of the Upper Castes isn’t going to help India. It will make the UCs morph into the Western paradigm where UCs will split into the traditional conservatives and “woke whites.”
Yes there is something called noblesse oblige and the Indian elite have spectacularly failed in discharging it. However the new “check your privilege” is a hideous mutation of this ancient and aristocratic concept much as the current Lefty moral paranoia is simply neo-Puritanism.
As I said in the podcast Islam, Pakistan and Muslims attending not threats to India in a substantive manner. The India media has frothed over the mouth over the wrong enemy but the Hindu progressives have allied with colonial powers since the first British Invasion.
Yes caste, Sati and untouchability are all wrong but Hinduism would and could have corrected on it in its own right. Islam does many things badly but Muslims are embarking on an internal reformation. It may not work out but it’s worth a try.
An even better example are the Chinese; they’ve collectively fingered the world not only with prosperity but cohesiveness. Pakistan is now a satrapy of China at bargain bucket prices (Pakistan has clamped down on any meaningful debate on CPEC while staying Mum on the burning Uighur question).
India has to maintain her cohesiveness and I fear the external interference of Caste Wars will bring about another 2/3 centuries of ignominy. Power never relinquishes itself peacefully; we only became free because Britain & the West exhausted itself and its moral credibility in WW2 (the Elder Gods plunges themselves into Raganorak).
29 thoughts on “Sting of a WASP”
In other news, the #metoo, post modernists and woke crowd have denounced Islamism and Linda Sarsour. This is good news.
Colonizers throwing stones from a glass house
many correct points, however the issue is still the same. China is doing well for now, I dont see it winning, its imperial ambitions are still born. Because its afraid of freedom. There is a first movers advantage in this world. Its not so that others couldnt have done better, its the case that when you are the first, you exploit 100% of a particular resource. If on other hand, you are second, you might exploit 15% of the remaining resource. And 15% isnt enough. India needs to grow to 20 trillion dollar market with real growth and large number of jobs, I dont know how this will even happen .we must block facebook/twitter and create new space for new tech sector. I am picking these 2 companies because I dont see them delivering any useful service and also because I think they can easily be copied .
Zach, I think most Hindus (Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs) welcome caucasians who wish to join their faith. And Hindu/Buddhist/Jain/Sikh caucasians are welcomed to participate in reform and improvement from inside the faith. Because they act out of love and from an eastern lens.
The issue is with people who oppose eastern philosophy who are trying to deconstruct, de-legitimize and dismantle it without any curiosity or bothering to learn anything about the east.
“But the same thing that’s happening to the Parsis is also happening to Kashmiri Pandits (my Pandit friend is one of 6 cousins who are in their 30/40’s and have two children between them), Sindhis and I’m sure other castes.”
But no one is to blame for this apart from those communities themselves. The pandits used (and many still till today) sing Kumbaya around “Kashmiriyat”. Just like woke Tam Brahms who think Dravidian-ism will emancipate them or something. The biggest star of Bollywood happens to be a Sindhi, and have you heard him say anything about Hindu sindhis? Even though his own family is one who migrated from Pakistan. When they themselves say “all is well” why would anyone care about them. And frankly i dont think they need help anyways.
“This constant vilification of the Upper Castes isn’t going to help India. It will make the UCs morph into the Western paradigm where UCs will split into the traditional conservatives and “woke whites.””
It has already happened , if you haven’t noticed. The only difference in the North the traditional conservatives UCs have gone full republican while the woke ones have gone full atheist/agnostic and the latter numbers are so small that they dont even matter. Hell even the OBCs i see now in the north have become more hindu than me. In South/Bengal is where the war is still ON, where ethncity/langauage is the bullwark which the left uses to fight the right for the “Hindu” mind space among the traditional/semi religious hindus.
“Yes caste, Sati and untouchability are all wrong but Hinduism would and could have corrected on it in its own right. ”
There is this idea on the left/woke that its only because of reformers and Ambedkar;s constitution that there has been reforms. As if the larger community is some bystander and had no part to play. Reforms always has a give and take relationship between the protagonist and the community(hindu marriage bills), and no piece of legislation can actually bring reform if the larger community is vehemently opposed to it. Case in point the Sabrimala issue/Pk blasphemy law
But the right/other side takes it to another extreme saying that all reforms need to be community based/internal. I dont agree with it either, if it goes against basic morality (Untouchability, color Segregation etc), it needs to be challenged by the elite and has to be channeled through legislation. And sometimes we under estimate how much latent acceptance of reform there is already building up for the reform, which mostly needs a spark (the whole same sex judgement in India)
There is no comparisons of India vis-v China, we are fundamentally different people governed by different systems. China homogeneity and one party rule will always keep them light years ahead of India in most departments.
similar view.due to similar pov at many times with saurav, I am leaving bp. Thanks folks.
Man, i know right! And our names don’t even rhyme like the numerous V’s on BP
clear distinguishing features right now are my interest in science/tech and religious identity. Hmm, perhaps not enough to stay on, In anycase, some of my views probably will be covered by what you say. So its ok to leave maybe.
Ranveer Singh is not the biggest star – he married the biggest star in Bollywood 🙂
I love the south because it might be the most religious place in the world.
Can you describe your perspectives on the 18 Siddha Tradition (Shaiva Siddhanta, one of the six great Shaivite extant lineages within Uttara Mimaamsa), Tirumurai (my favorite part is Tirumantiram), Agastyar, Tirumular, Bhoga Nather et all? How are they seen in Tamil Nadu?
I am deeply drawn to this to put it mildly.
“The future doesn’t look good for India’s upper castes; they’ve migrated, intermarried or are barren.”
Yes, there are 365 million upper caste Indians (30%), more than the population of the US or EU or Japan+Korea+taiwan put together. We have all migrated, intermarried and barren. Even Brahmins, there are more than 65 million.
The Brahmins, together with merchant bani castes operate almost all private industry. The upper castes hold some 70% of the central government jobs (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/20-years-after-Mandal-less-than-12-OBCs-in-central-govt-jobs/articleshow/50328073.cms)
I know you are writing all these things because the four of us commenting (Vijay/Vijayvan, Santosh/Bharat, Anan, and a fourth pair I forget) can write 50 posts just opposing and supporting the same thing, at the same time, but a wee bit of truth once a post will never hurt anyone. India needs so many things, jobs, water, pucca housing, toilet facilities, women’s education, but cohesiveness is not something we can eat.
WASPs were in the ascendancy in the 1950’s now they are demographically marginalised.
Yes Brahmins and UCs are on top now but they will need to manage things going forward.
OK, I should post as VijayVan and argue pro not against, but:
When did WASPs lose power, at least the protestants?
Wright, . (2004). “The identity and changing status of former elite minorities”. In Kaufmann, Eric P. Rethinking Ethnicity: Majority Groups and Dominant Minorities. London; New York: Routledge. p. 33. ISBN 0-41-531542-5.
Religion Among America’s Elite: Persistence and Change in the Protestant Establishment
James D. Davidson, Sociology of Religion, Volume 55, Issue 4, 1 December 1994, Pages 419–440, https://doi.org/10.2307/3711980
“Data about American elites in the early 1930s and the mid 1990s show that the Protestant Establishment has lost some of its earlier prominence, but that its members are still overrepresented among America’s elite, particularly in the economic and political spheres. Jews have made important gains and are now overrepresented in all spheres but agriculture. Moderate Protestant groups which grew most rapidly in he nineteenth century (e.g., Methodists and Lutherans) have gained, especially in agriculture, but are still underrepresented in most other areas. Catholics have gained, but remain underrepresented in all spheres. Conservative Protestants (Baptists) have lost ground in all areas except agriculture, where they are slightly overrepresented. I conclude with implications for future research.”
Just a little bit of reality in every post, that is all what I ask.
Cohesiveness is a funny thing. It’s only when you lose it you understand how important it really was
Exactly that’s what happens in ethnocracies ..
Posting as VijayVan, when was India ever cohesive, to lose it?
Do you rember that until 1757, Tamilnadu or Kerala were never part of any of the empires? A bizarre thing was Tughlak dynasty reached into Thanjavur, but lost it in 14 years. And that was it. The marathas and Naiks did, but they were viewed to be part and parcel of Indian empires.
The same for Assam, Northeast.
To further your point, when we look at a series of political maps of the imperial territory of past empires we are also likely overestimating the control over and cultural cohesion of those areas. Such maps take liberties by including vassal and tributary states, and regions over which suzerainty is only mildly suggested. One need not go to the very southern and eastern extremes of the subcontinent to see examples of historical independence.
That answer was an exaggeration, and I do not disagree that Indian centre has been a weak entity from the Mauryan time to Mughal time. It would be possible to go 30 miles from Delhi and feel completely independent of the empire, then or now. By Juhi Tyagi’s definition India was always a weak state (‘Weak states have low or stagnant economic growth and weak governing institutions that are unable to implement policies or maintain autonomy due to corruption or conflict”). That should not be taken as indicator of how Tamils feel as a part of India (or not). They do buy into all the sacred geography crap.
By that yardstick, no countries are cohesive since one time or the other it did not occupy the territories which it has today.
Saurav, that wasn’t a test of legitimacy, but a try at moving the boundaries of our assumptions. If the idea of a centralized pan-Indian state is newer than earlier supposed, it may earn its place on its own terms. That said, there is nothing normal about the physical size and ethnic diversity of India as a nation-state, it is on the scale of an empire.
Vijay mate, you have never got my line of thinking even for a joke.
If I ever raise the cohesiveness of India, which wouldn’t be, I would be raising the question of cohesiveness of Tamilnadu – which it had never been – or even cohesiveness of ‘Tamil language’ which will send EVR bhakts like you on a tail spin.
It needs some talent to think like another person instead of simplistic assumptions.
For me India is a cohesive nation state which will overcome silliness of it’s EVRites and “progressives “
Take your case to jaggu, he clearly demonstrated that Vijay/Vijayvan form an ardhanarishwara combination that talks pro and con any issue. Other combinations are Anan/Anan, Saurav/Bharat.
I do not write the rules here.
@vijay I think I am pointing about need for jobs , agreed even on wealth inequality . This is a truth I think everyone in BP already agree readily. Modi has been a failure on job front, he promised it and failed. I am scared about all this.
I do read and value your points
“The upper castes hold some 70% of the central government jobs ” —
There is a creamy layer within OBC under which OBCs candidates having a certain income limit don’t get the benefit of reservations. From what i understand , while filling application form , they have to check the Open category/General Category option. So, wouldn’t such people be counted as GC in the databases ? The correct question would be what’s the % of such people creamy layer OBC ?
I wonder if the older generation OBCs who got in through General Category are even aware that they are OBCs lol.
Moreover since 2008, an additional 27% of OBC reservation was implemented in premier institutes like IITs/IIMs/NITs. The question is – where are these guys going for jobs ? My guess would be private sectors since grads from IITs/IIMs look down upon govt. jobs.
“almost all US tech company hires of Indians were hires of Brahmin” — First of all i am not sure if this is true but even if it is,
how is this a problem ? They are not there through their nepotism since tech company interviews(US ones atleast) judge the candidates purely based on their merit.
The Motherland is more important than anything else. China of course..
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