They pulled into the Mann’s Chinese Theater on horseback wearing designer pelts. Some tourists got their skulls bashed in, but they were good sports about it. Valet parking for the horses was adequate.
OK, it was actually a PBS documentary, but it’s all the same to our friends from overseas:
You can see the full episode here:
https://www.wliw.org/programs/nova/first-horse-warriors-nm9uzf/
The episode was really about the domestication of the horse, proposed as a game changer in human civilization. The present day Kazakhstan Steppe tribe that accomplished this, the Botai (descended from the Ancient North Eurasian) later died out. Their horses then returned to the wild in Mongolia.
But who cares about any of that right? The latter part of the episode is all about our glorious Steppe barbarian ancestors, the Yamnaya who stole/appropriated this horse domestication technology and combined it with the wagon to ravage the Eurasian steppe, eventually propagating their Proto-Indo-European language all the way up to England and down to India.
One German fellow believes there’s no evidence for a handful of guys on horsey riding down and massacring most everyone, but all the other scientists interviewed seem to disagree. The key point is that the genetics don’t lie, with today’s Europeans having 50% and South Asians having 30% ancestry going back to the Steppe.
Overall, it’s a very good documentary. One of the best, maybe. Although I could be biased because I’m R1A. I especially like the Scandinavian scientists and their accents.
As a side note I find it very interesting also the notion that language is connected with wealth and power and people will drop their own language and adopt another one to suit these ends. In India, the Tamils and Bengalis are most anxious about the status of their language even though they have the least to worry about. In Bihar, our languages of Maithili, Magahi, and Bhojpuri (which descend from the language of ancients, Gautam Buddha and the Emporer Ashok) have in 2 generations largely been replaced by Hindi (which contrary to those maps out there, was not ever vastly the language of the average man on the street in North/Central India, but really the dialect of small region around New Delhi):
But because it’s associated language Urdu had status in the Mughal empire, there were people in positions of power or influence everywhere who knew Hindi/Urdu. Supposedly Bihar was the first state to adopt Hindi as its official language in post-independence India, even though at the time it wasn’t the language of 99% of the people in the state.
with today’s Europeans having 50% and South Asians having 30%
northern europeans. it’s lower in the south. southern to south asian %
Do the Andaman and Nicobar Islanders speak Bengali?
Bengali is spoken by a plurality of speakers in Andaman and Nicobar Islanders. Other prominent languages include Tamil, Telugu, and Hindi. Of course, given that this is India, with its long and rich history of linguistic imposition, only Hindi and English have any official recognition.
wonderful article
“South Asians having 30% ancestry going back to the Steppe.”
Thats not true according to the Narasimhan 2018 paper.
Steppes DNA:
Kalash 30%
North Indians 20-25%
South Indians 6-10%
i think the % quoted in the film are high estimates for BOTH europe and south asia.
आप ठीक कह रहे हैं, साहिब
I believe the video says up to those percentages.
Nice documentary.
The impact of horse-archers as a superior battle tatic is probably also quite an underrated factor in the Mughal conquest of India.
By the time Mughals rolled along, horse archers were less important that gunpowder. ( which was the difference maker for Babur) North India had seen horse archers , Delhi sultanate had defeated that lone battle they had with mongols ( arguably the best exponent of horse archers ). Yes in south India vijaynagar did initially struggle considering their novelty , but in north both sides knew how to tackle them.
Mughals had guns imported from the Ottomans, who were also Muslims who spoke a Turkic language. Indians who fought them, who were also Muslim and of course, Hindu, had primitive weapons like bows and spears. 😢
It’s not that simple, from pre historic times almost anyone who invaded India from N-West had to contend with two issues. Manpower. and money Even someone like Ghori who was ruling a vast area from Afghanistan to Punjab had to fight a substantial smaller power like Prithviraj (ruler of Delhi to Ajmer mostly) who could field almost a equal army size wise.
So they innovated. Sometimes it was better cavalry, horse archers, gunpowder etc. Its not different than lets say when Mongols or the Manchus invading China. The weaker power has to innovate. The marathas did against the Mughals, and some would argue they were perhaps the best cavalry power (something you wouldn;t associate with “Indians” ) of that age.
Mate most of the area labelled Kashmiri speaks Ladakhi. Kashmiri is really just spoken in the tiny (and dear and f***ed up) Valley 🙂
Ethnic Steppe Indus Periphery (IP) Onge
Kalash 0.289 0.679 0.032
Pathan 0.280 0.658 0.062
Lohana 0.251 0.640 0.109
Khatri 0.261 0.610 0.129
Pandit 0.219 0.627 0.154
GujaratiA 0.245 0.636 0.119
Dogra 0.222 0.608 0.170
Yadav_Rajasthan 0.224 0.615 0.161
Brahmin_Haryana 0.235 0.586 0.179
Muslim_Kashmiri 0.196 0.605 0.199
Brahmin_Nepal 0.234 0.536 0.230
Bhumihar_Bihar 0.254 0.545 0.201
Rajput 0.209 0.588 0.203
Brahmin_Tiwari 0.250 0.530 0.220
Yadav_UP 0.213 0.611 0.176
Sikh_Jatt 0.242 0.550 0.208
Baniya 0.182 0.617 0.201
Kshatriya_Durgvanshi 0.216 0.542 0.242
Brahmin_UP 0.244 0.522 0.234
GujaratiB 0.210 0.577 0.213
Bhumihar_UP 0.225 0.545 0.230
Shiya 0.171 0.581 0.248
Backward_Caste 0.200 0.535 0.265
Havik 0.173 0.585 0.242
GujaratiC 0.162 0.587 0.251
Brahmin_Karnataka 0.186 0.575 0.239
Brahmin_Bhatt 0.180 0.528 0.292
Chamar_Haryana 0.186 0.523 0.291
Brahmin_Vaidik 0.155 0.589 0.256
Brahmin_Catholic_Goa 0.178 0.540 0.282
Jain 0.143 0.555 0.302
Oswal_Jain 0.152 0.573 0.275
Srivastava 0.158 0.533 0.309
GujaratiD 0.119 0.591 0.290
Meena 0.148 0.565 0.287
Patel 0.122 0.598 0.280
Agarwal 0.138 0.566 0.296
Kurmi_UP 0.152 0.542 0.306
Nai 0.161 0.524 0.315
Brahmin_Catholic_Mangalore 0.133 0.570 0.297
Brahmin_Catholic 0.131 0.571 0.298
Coorghi 0.101 0.632 0.267
Chaurasia 0.155 0.516 0.329
Punjabi 0.147 0.532 0.321
Jatav 0.153 0.512 0.335
Baniyas 0.149 0.528 0.323
Brahmin_Catholic_Kumta 0.132 0.568 0.300
Kurmi_MP 0.142 0.535 0.323
Ansari 0.143 0.509 0.348
Kanjad 0.151 0.504 0.345
Jogi 0.139 0.522 0.339
Muslim_Bihar 0.129 0.509 0.362
Panta_Kapu 0.070 0.645 0.285
Malaikuarvar 0.092 0.560 0.348
Narikuruvar 0.100 0.542 0.358
Sindhi_MP 0.130 0.516 0.354
Hakki_Pikki 0.107 0.523 0.370
Baiswar 0.131 0.511 0.358
Lohar 0.120 0.558 0.322
Kalinga 0.120 0.533 0.347
Silawat 0.115 0.541 0.344
Dhobi 0.130 0.505 0.365
Maratha 0.113 0.558 0.329
Chamar_UP 0.150 0.428 0.422
Gaud_Karnataka 0.079 0.588 0.333
Lambadi 0.121 0.520 0.359
Dushadh 0.121 0.499 0.380
Lodhi 0.108 0.521 0.371
Scheduled_Caste_Haryana 0.128 0.499 0.373
Pasi 0.134 0.468 0.398
Sah_Obc 0.127 0.472 0.401
Reddy_Telangana 0.083 0.582 0.335
Pal 0.107 0.523 0.370
Sonkar 0.089 0.532 0.379
Lingayath_Karnataka 0.104 0.551 0.345
Kuruba 0.110 0.530 0.360
Manjhi_MP 0.106 0.479 0.415
Gaud_Telangana 0.071 0.556 0.373
Ediga 0.081 0.545 0.374
Dhokkali 0.078 0.546 0.376
Yadav_Pondicherry 0.064 0.583 0.353
Vysya 0.044 0.585 0.371
Naidu 0.065 0.571 0.364
Budagajangam 0.093 0.510 0.397
Dudhekula 0.067 0.545 0.388
Chamada 0.055 0.560 0.385
Nadar 0.052 0.573 0.375
Korava 0.078 0.545 0.377
Achary 0.069 0.566 0.365
Arunthatiar2 0.070 0.550 0.380
Satnami 0.096 0.462 0.442
Dharikhar 0.086 0.494 0.420
Kshatriya_Aquikula 0.063 0.534 0.403
Vadde 0.088 0.493 0.419
Rathwa 0.107 0.458 0.435
Kallar 0.048 0.583 0.369
Bestha 0.059 0.556 0.385
Pattapu_Kapu 0.057 0.545 0.398
Yerukali 0.056 0.547 0.397
Muthuraja 0.046 0.555 0.399
Hallaki 0.080 0.495 0.425
Paravar 0.063 0.512 0.425
Vishwabrahmin 0.055 0.517 0.428
Bhil 0.079 0.485 0.436
Oddari 0.070 0.502 0.428
Scheduled_Caste_Karnataka 0.067 0.494 0.439
Bhilala 0.085 0.468 0.447
Gamit 0.078 0.462 0.460
Meddari 0.071 0.489 0.440
Mahadeo_Koli 0.076 0.467 0.457
Chaudhary 0.077 0.477 0.446
Garasia 0.099 0.443 0.458
Lingayath_TN 0.049 0.531 0.420
Barela 0.068 0.464 0.468
Tadvi 0.084 0.453 0.463
Kunabi 0.076 0.461 0.463
Koli 0.088 0.419 0.493
Madiga 0.052 0.497 0.451
Sugali 0.041 0.483 0.476
Indumalayali 0.034 0.528 0.438
Mala 0.056 0.462 0.482
Kotwalia 0.073 0.439 0.488
Changpa 0.049 0.489 0.462
Chakkiliyan 0.050 0.463 0.487
Kathodi 0.068 0.427 0.505
Gugavellalar 0.045 0.462 0.493
Arunthatiar1 0.032 0.475 0.493
Warli 0.049 0.417 0.534
Yanidi 0.038 0.490 0.472
Kolcha 0.071 0.400 0.529
Kumhar 0.059 0.464 0.477
Kurumans 0.049 0.457 0.494
Kurchas 0.054 0.433 0.513
Adi_Dravider 0.029 0.481 0.490
Irula 0.023 0.409 0.568
Malayan 0.028 0.389 0.583
Adiyan 0.019 0.335 0.646
Ulladan 0.014 0.378 0.608
Palliyar 0.012 0.350 0.638
Pulliyar 0.033 0.389 0.578
The Narsimha data. Ranges from about 3-30%.
South Indian dalit and tribals have negligible steppes ancestry.
In India’s cow belt, in the evenings old uncles over whisky will still argue over the dominance of local Brahmins vs. Rajputs. Whereas in reality, the group that has been actually dominant post-1980 has been the Yadavs. I’m not denying that the Mulayam Yadav political family of UP is bad, nor that the Lalu Yadav dynasty of Bihar is even worse, but there’s no denying their capture of power at the expense of the upper castes. Nitish Kumar’s 14 year old ruling alliance in Bihar is electorally driven by a subsequent reaction of the actually marginalized of the backward castes against the Yadavs, but even he has a lot of Yadav leaders in key positions in his party.
My father once said the Yadavs should have never been included as a “backward caste”. I didn’t know if that was just sour grapes. But if you think about it, the cow is very important in the Hindu religion. I speculate it would have been an honored job to keep cows and provide milk in ancient times. Also, with 80% of Indians being lactose intolerant (per 23andMe), only those with significant Steppe ancestry are among those who can digest milk anyway. Not that the milkman has to drink milk, but I would find it improbable if the Yadavs as a whole weren’t lactose tolerant.
The Yadavs probably didn’t have as many money making opportunities, however, as the Rajputs, Brahmins, and Kayasthas and they did manual labor, so their social status was likely degraded over time. But judging from their genetics in North India, their profiles look no different than the upper caste people in their own region.
There’s this theory of “Sankritisation”, where supposedly socially inferior groups adopt upper caste ways and retcon their history into a higher caste profile. I don’t know if it’s true or not, given that you have all these agitations in India about relatively prosperous groups like Patels and Marathas demanding backward caste status and OBC’s in turn demanding scheduled caste or scheduled tribe status, but i wouldn’t be surprised if some unfortunate reverse of this process affected the standing of the Yadav people historically, going from relatively good, relatively close to the other higher Steppe ancestry peoples to being lowered to that of the more indigenous people over time due to the agricultural nature of their work and perhaps relative poverty.
The map showing linguistic states in India does not tell the entire story. Border regions of all these states have considerable #’s of speakers of both/many languages.
I found it odd that the documentary did not mention was Farsi as one of the major languages of the Indo-European family. I thought that these Yamnaya (or their descendents) first moved into Central Asia and Iran and then came to South Asia?
the % of steppe is western iran is not that high actually. they probably went through khorasan, but it was a fast move.
South Asians do not ‘have’ 25% Steppe DNA.
South Asians can be modeled with 25% Steppe DNA.
Kalash has very unique phenotype and culture in South Asia. This means long time-depth and isolation.
This is not consistent with the AIT.
Kalah vs GujaratiA Phenotype Variation is probably the greatest in the world when we take into account Geographic distance. But you argue all this phenotype variation happened recently, post 1500BC?
It has to right? Because the steppe/ip proportions are so close between Kalash and other South Asians, it can only be one mixing event that produced one population, which then developed different phenotypes.
It is statistically impossible that the steppe groups mixed with all these different South Asian/Himalayan populations, but end up with very similar steppe/ip proportions, all neatly consistent with their geographic position, even though we are talking about multiple small groups whose numbers would be so small to make them highly sensitive to variations in the extent to which they mix with the incoming pops.
So you are saying that there was just a big mess of undifferentiated steppe/ip mix who then split into different Indo-Iranian populations and developed different phenotypes, all after 1500BC?
The documentary, like the AIT, is simply trash.
I will debate any AIT person on Youtube anytime.
I will debate any AIT person on Youtube anytime.
LOL.
you kind of sound stupid.
I said YT cos I have a channel there, but dont really post much
Anyway, watch my video here, I dont think it is stupid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=966dAKcpoT8
Atleast the OIT can make real claims that can be tested and refuted, the basis of any scientific theory.
AIT has not idea where/when/how Iranian and IA split up, and has no idea how the current population diversity in South Asia developed.
These are the two most important question regarding the origin of Indo-Iranians. The AIT has been around for a long, long time, and while people like you play around on your calculators, there is no mention of when we are gonna have testable hypothesis’ for these questions.
AIT is not a ‘scientific’ theory, it is a fraud, pseudoscience, a joke…
For there to be only one population mixing event to produce IAs, there can only be one mixing location ie the Punjab plains.
This means none of the mountaneous, remote regions surrounding northern South Asia were populated at that time, which is absurd
Or, IAs moved from their original location in the Punjab to the mountaneous regions and killed off everyone without mixing, and this happened separately, and without exception for all individual communities living in remote areas in Northen South Asia. Else we would see higher IP and lower steppe in these regions.
Islam came to Punjab first, then went to Nuristan after many attemps by the Afghan King to convert the region. It still didnt reach Kalash. And Islam is the most aggresively proselytizing religion in World, ever.
Doesnt make sense the invading Aryans would be able to conquer those regions much more easily.
Nor does it make sense invaders would want to go up there to live a sparse existence, when they can be overlords in the fertile plains. No Mughal, Saka, or Turkic invader was ever concerned with those mountain regions. So it doesnt make sense the Aryan invaders would go up there, given they had far less means, and no standing army, and smaller economy, no religion to proselytise etc.
Can someone AIT person pls explain what they think happened and how the Kalash got to where they are, with their 30% ‘steppe’ dna?
I dont think it unnecessary to the AIT to explain these things, infact, I think this is exactly what it should be attempting to explain.
AIT people always ignore the real questions and hard problems posed by their theory.
LOL
It’s not a tough question.
I just want to know if the Steppe Invaders went directly to Chitral, Swat, Kashmir etc from the steppe, in their individual groups, or if they went to Punjab first and then went up, or some combination of the two.
Because this is most important thing that determines the distribution of steppe dna in these different populations.
But AIT people are too lazy or afraid to make an assertion here.
But we demand this be addressed, as it is essential for the theory to be taken seriously.
Anyway, we know they cant answer, just like when you ask them about the split of IIr…
“Somewhere in the Steppe”
AIT is a blackhole of nonesense, but hey, you are free to answer these questions, what does your little calculator say, Razib?
AIT is a blackhole of nonesense, but hey, you are free to answer these questions, what does your little calculator say, Razib?
little calculator?
you are just ranting bro. it’s quite amusing tho.
Razib, I dont personally care if you find it amusing, I am just waiting for you to address the points raised.
Or do you think I am unreasonable in expecting the AIT to provide a solution to those questions?
mzp1 wrote
“The documentary, like the AIT, is simply trash.”
Absolutely. Share the following paper as much as possible.
James Clackson, a professor of Linguistics at the University of Cambridge (it doesn’t get much more mainstream than that) has written
https://www.academia.edu/9452122/_The_Origins_of_the_Indic_Languages_the_Indo-European_model_in_Angela_Marcantonio_and_Girish_Nath_Jha_eds._Perspectives_on_the_origin_of_Indian_civilization_New_Delhi_259-287
Scroll down to the para beginning:
“What does it mean for the origin of the Indic languages–without evidence from archaeology and early text… tells us NOTHING certain about the origins of the Indic Civilization.”
Clackson is the author of
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521653673?pf_rd_p=c2945051-950f-485c-b4df-15aac5223b10&pf_rd_r=JHNMERKWKN6D4JZNKDMH
All this stuff was started by the Indo European linguists and now Clackson, the LINGUIST has basically RESIGNED from the debate. And yet people like Anthony and Reich are still looking for some mysterious people who spoke a mysterious reconstructed language . The title is quite appropriate. Anthony has gone Bollywood or Hollywood.
Kenoyer says here very clearly.
https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/pdf/Kenoyer_Changing%20Perspectives%20of%20the%20Indus%20Civilization.pdf
“These data indicate that foragers WERE PRESENT IN THE EXACT LOCATIONS where we later see the emergence of
settled agro-pastoral communities during the Early Food
Producing Era (7000-5500 BCE) and the Regionalization
Era (5500-2800 BCE). (emphasis added)”
Comment: So no need or evidence for Anthony’s horse riding herders bringing in pastoralism.
Also,
“While there may have been some competition
and potential for conflict in the peripheral regions,
there are no indications that the larger cities were ever
attacked or destroyed throughout the 700 year period
from 2600-1900 BCE. ”
or Anthony’s thunderous charioteers.
Further from the above paper:
“The simplistic diffusion model of early
domestication, or specific technologies, urbanism
and writing emcrging (sic) first in Mesopotamia, and then
spreading to Egypt and the Indus Valley region is no
longer supported by the recent discoveries in each of
these regions. ”
Comment: There goes the Fertile Crescent stuff warranting a revision of not just the history of South Asia but the history of the transition from hunting food gathering to agriculture as we know it.
and
” It is important to note however that
mobile and/or sedentary foraging communities were
clearly present in all areas of the Indus valley, prior to
the emergence of urbanism and that THERE IS NO NEED TO SEE AN INFLUX of NEW POPULATIONS bringing a new
way of life to the alluvial plains (emphasis added)”
Comment: Where have these steppe herders gone? Perhaps David Anthony has an answer.
I just want to know if the Steppe Invaders went directly to Chitral, Swat, Kashmir etc from the steppe, in their individual groups, or if they went to Punjab first and then went up, or some combination of the two.
Could all be independent streams. The resulting levels of steppe admixture was a function of the population sizes (and densities) of the destinations (much higher in the Punjab plains that in Himalayan valleys.)
Is this consistent with the genetics? (Asking this question as a layperson)
It would kind of explain the existence of language isolates in the mountains, like Burushaski.
mzp1:
How does OIT explain all the linguistic and genetic variations you are describing?
For OIT, there is no issue here, because we dont have to ‘reset’ anything at 1500BC.
So OIT basically says these groups have had lots of time to differentiate themselves.
So for instance, looking at Kalash vs Punjabi Phenotype variation, we can say the separation happened well before 1500BC, so there is lots of time to evolve a different phenotype.
A good example are the Nuristani languages, because they are classified between Indo Aryan and Iranian, in their own branch. This is also reflected in their geographic location, in between Indo Aryan and Iranian speakers. So we can say that this is the point of separation of IIr, or Indo-Aryan -> Iranian, and everything lines up nicely.
For the AIT, IIr, separated somewhere in the Steppe, with IA, Iranian and Nuristani languages, then IA went to South Asia, and Nuristani went and placed itself exactly in between IA and Iranian geographically, to make it look as though that was the real point of IIr separation.
Ask any AIT guy to explain the position of Nuristani. They cant, so they just ignore it. For us, there is nothing to explain, as this is the point where IndoAryan starts to become Iranian.
Wow, OIP are raging.
I always think of Hindi as a “Esperanto that succeeded” ….. [in contrast to the original Esperanto which was meant to unify and form a common European language of the present day … but is now mainly an academic curiosity]
RE: JATS (1/4)
It seems that genetic results, although exact, only create confusion and do not contribute to make final conclusions. I already mentioned that must be a holistic approach to include language, history, mythology, archaeology, etc. Also, to change terminology and remove terms without substance- IE, steppe, etc.
Here will follow:
1- Question to answer
2- Tutmos III, Setos, Ramzes II, Sesostris
3- Wiki – Jats
4- Conclusion
Recently, I asked Pundits to answer the following questions, but I haven’t seen any attempt despite the bottle of red on offer in my cellar. Let’s try again, maybe someone got some idea in meantime.
Background information can be found on:
WIKI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Jat_Aryan_Foundation
1. Why India’s Prime Minister intervened to stop the World Jat Aryan Foundation Congress?
2. Why was the Jat Aryan Foundation Congress cancelled?
3. Why the Congress was, however, held 2 months after cancellation?
RE: JATS (2/4)
While researching ancient Serbian presence in North Africa (re Vandals, Arianism, Serba island, etc) I found the following information relevant to SA people:
– Tutmos III is the sixth pharaoh of the XVIII dynasty. He ruled Egypt from 1486BC until 1425BC. At the temple of Tutmozis III and his sister Numt Amena, we find his colourful fighting with the nations: Ruthenians, unknown in N.Africa and Heti in Hanan.
– Setos (ruled from 1445-1394 BC) and his son Ramesses II – on their buildings we find again a recorded victory over the people of Ruthen, Remn and the people of Shaza, and again Heti with their city Kedem, etc. They conquered the countries of Asia and Europe to the Black Sea, and in Finland to the Lika River, conquered Scythia and Thrace in Europe, and considerable part of Asia till India. These victories against Livy, Nubian and Heti were again written on their tombstones
– Sesostris (Setos’ grandchild, ruled 1391—1328BC) led big ancient expedition of 600 thousand of warriors, 24000 horsemen, 27000 chariots from Africa and invaded Europe and India with intention to conquer the whole world. He conquered all the lands in Europe up to Don, Volga and Danube and in Asia through Gang in India, etc. After nine years of robbing, firing, killing, etc. come back, with many slaves he returned to Egypt.
The tribes: Heti, Ruteni were Serbian speaking tribes. The remains of these Heti or the ancient Hati in India were known as overly cruel and wild, but at the same time warlike and brave, all travellers in India describe them. They were known in today’s Serbia (and Tripoli) during Trajan’s ruling and in other places, such as Venice and Italy, etc. whom everyone recognize as Serbian and called various Slavic names. Roman poet Ovidiu wrote about them (Ex Ponto) during his exile in Serbian Dacia.
RE: JATS (3a/4)
There are few excerpt from the link: https://www.jatland.com/home/Jats (=’the ultimate resource for the Jats, providing Jats around the world a platform to interact with the community and connect with our roots’)
Sir Herbert Risley declared the Jats to be the true representatives of the Vedic Aryans.
Professor B. S. Dhillon states that Jat people are mainly of Indo-Scythian lineage with composite mixing of Sarmatians, Goths & Jutes in History and study of the Jats. Historian James Tod agreed in considering the Jat people to be of Indo-Scythian Stock.[61] Moreover, Sir Alexander Cunningham, Former Director-General of the Archeological Survey of India, considered the Jat people to be the Xanthii (a Scythian tribe) of Scythian stock who he considered very likely called the Zaths (Jats) of early Arab writers.
Sir Alexander Cunningham, (Former Director-General of the Archaeological Survey of India) wrote: The Xanthii (a Scythian tribe) are very probably the Zaths (Jats) of the early Arab writers. As the Zaths were in Sindh to the west of the Indus, this location agrees very well with what we know of the settlement of the Sakas (Scythians) on the Indian frontier.[67]
Sir John Marshall, (Former Director-General of the Archaeological Survey of India) wrote: “These Scythian invaders came principally from the three great tribes of Massagetae (great Jats), Sacaraucae, and Dahae (still exists as a Jat clan of Punjab)[68], whose home at the beginning of the second century B.C. was in the country between the Caspian sea (sea) and the Jaxartes river (Central Asia).[69]
Arthur Edward Barstow wrote: “The Medii, Xanthii, Jatii, Getae and other Scythian races, were gradually working their way from the banks of the Oxus (River valley in Central Asia) into Southern Afghanistan and the pastoral highland about Quetta (a Pakistani city)
Professor Henry Smith Williams wrote: “The extent of the Scythian invasion has been variously estimated. Some scholars believe that they virtually supplanted the previous population of India (means Punjab), and there seems little doubt that by far the most numerous section of the Punjab population is of Scythian origin.”[73]
Professor Pritam Singh Gill wrote: “There is a general consensus of opinion that Jats, and with them Rajputs and Gujjars were foreigners who came from their original home, near the Oxus, Central Asia.”[74]
Professor Tadeusz Sulimirski wrote: “The evidence of both the ancient authors and the archaeological remains point to a massive migration of Sacian (Sakas)/Massagetan (“great” Jat) tribes from the Syr Daria Delta by the middle of the second century B.C. Some of the Syr Darian tribes; they also invaded North India.”[75]
I. Sara wrote: “Recent excavations in the Ukraine and Crimea. The finds points to the visible links of the Jat and Scythians.”[78]
Sir Mountstuart Elphinstone Grant Duff wrote: “My conclusion, therefore, is, that the Jats may be of Scythian descent.”[80]
Ujagir Singh Mahil wrote: “Jat were called Scythians; because they were the inhabitants of the ancient country of Scythia. The Jats who invaded the Punjab and conquered India up to Benares were called Indo-Scythians.”[81]
RE: JATS (3b/4)
James Francis Katherinus Hewitt wrote: “Further evidence both of the early history and origin of the race of Jats, or Getae, is given by the customs and geographical position of another tribe of the same stock, called the Massagetae, or great (massa) Getae.”[82]
Syed Muhammad Latif wrote: “A considerable portion of the routed army of the Scythians settled in the Punjab. A portion of these settlers, the descendants of Massagetae, were called Getes, from whom sprung the modern Jats.”[84]
Dr. Gopal Singh wrote: “The Jats of the Panjab, are Scythians in origin and came from Central Asia, whose one branch migrated as far south in Europe as Bulgaria. “[85]
Satya Shrava wrote: “The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe…. a fact now well-known.”[87]
B. S. Nijjar wrote: “The Jats are the descendants of Scythians, whose kingdom’s capital was Scythia, in the present Ukraine.
Steven M. Collins advocates the identification of Massagetaeans as “Great Jits or Jats” of Asia.[89][90]
Weer Rajendra Rishi advocates that the Jats are none other than the Massagetaeans (Maha/Great Getae).[91]
Rahul Sankrityayan had identified the Jats as Massagetaeans.[92]
George Rawlinson has identified the Massagetaeans as “Great Jits or Jats” of Asia.
Sir Richard Francis Burton wrote: “The Massagetae (greater Jats or Goths) are opposed to the Thyssa (or lesser) Getae, and both used the sagaris.”
(MT Note – ‘sagaris’ is a two-blades Serbian axe)
yes I think Jats, Rajputs and Gujjars are all Scythians.
There is a Gujrat in Punjab.. after Islam these Scythians essentially became Pathans..
RE: JATS (4/4)
The tribes – Sarmatians, Goths, Sakas, Getae, Massagetaeans (from Danube) are all Serbian speaking tribes.
(Note -I need to write a separate comment about the origin of the term Scythia and Scythians. Also I will write about previous mentioned Serbian tribe Ruteni)
The names: Heti (i.e. Hati from N.Africa), Geti from Danube (i.e. Goti=Goths) describe the same tribe which spoke Serbian language.
In India, this name is JATS.
Today’s JATS are descendants of the ancient Serbian tribe Heti i.e. Hati i.e. Geti i.e Goti.
I found these historical facts just recently, I don’t know much about JATS in India but I will try to research other connections (mythology, language) with other Serbian tribes.
Well – we have now a very specific assertion/conclusion – JATS are Serbs.
It is open for everyone to give his/her opinion/knowledge about this.
Razib mentioned yesterday that Omar is a Gujjar. It means – another Serbian brother!!!!
you say Serbian I say Scythian.. (aren’t the Croats Scythians)..
I will write a comment about Scythians. This is a bit complex. Some call Ukrainians – descendants of Scythians. On the map they occupied the whole Asia and a part of Europe. Where are they, what was their language, what were their genes, what’s happened with them? Did they make the 1st draft of Rg Veda? Did they have cities, technology for making arms? The term Scythian means – trumps i.e nomads. Until my comment we can use a temporary working title ‘Soviets’.
@Milan What do you smoke ? May I please know?