“I agree with you by the way that despite the Aryans calling Indians dark-skinned, snub-nosed barbarians, destroying their religious structures, and invading/raping their people, limiting them to these Vedic-accounts is wrong-headed. My point was that if Hindus want to play this gutter-game against Muslims, it can be played against Hindus just as well (if not better).”

Even this level of specificity is far from agreed upon. Yet you think that scattered and ambiguous references in early Rig Vedic texts in archaic Sanskrit is sufficient to draw these conclusions, while opposing such conclusions in respect of Muslim rulers despite far more literary backing.

It’s a double standard. You make arguments against the Hindu narrative of Muslim barbarity by introducing reasons for doubting the veracity of the accounts set forth in the biographies of Muslim rulers. That’s fine. But you display no such charity to the Aryans and sloppily assume the interpretation that helps you the most (to draw equivalency between Muslims and Aryans). This is despite how weak the literary strength is in the early Rig Vedic texts when compared to more modern and better-recorded Muslim biographies.

He provided a framework to see religion as – a. Exhibiting Observable differences {Conscious Verbal Track} b. Having underlying deep beliefs which are universal in nature {deep cognitive track}.

Although i say this categorization can be applied to all beliefs & ideologies because that’s how everybody experiences the world.

To explain how it creates misunderstandings he mentions the example of an Muslims fundamentalists call their religion special religion & Internet Hindu agrees in a bad way.

Here he does 3 things –
1. He is questioning whether most Muslims actually believe their religion similar to the claims of Fundamentalists ? Thus dividing Fundamentalists Vs Normal Muslims
2. Similarly he is questioning Hindu or Non-Muslims acceptance of above narrative by Fundamentalists i.e. Islam more special than other religions which is misreading & wrong because of the experience of Muslims under Islam is different from such claims. This difference between experience vis a vis fundamentalist claims is what he is pitting against each other & using it to discard the criticisms from Non-Muslims of Islam.
3. This problematizes the narratives as well as claims of either sides. Since all Muslims have various different conceptions of Islam & non-Muslims have never experienced Islam. Thus all the claims from Muslims, Sheikhs or otherwise regarding Islam as well as the criticisms from other side can be rejected as they both will fall short of this test of ‘Psychological analysis’.

Neither Muslims represent Islam {because of their different conceptions of Islam & we have already discarded Fundamentalists Muslisms & their claims about Islam} nor non-Muslims have experienced Islam hence they can’t fairly criticize it but rely upon these fundamentalist claims to criticize it.

So i disagree that one needs to experience ideology or belief to criticize it.

I assumed that all this is a given hence did not elaborated upon it before & posted my post which presents many academic streams that problematizes such readings & to further explore it i presented Hindu-Muslim divide in subcontinent & my experience regarding these discussions.

What is bad? Defending Kith kin kine is Good. Kindness to mortal enemies that leads to extinction of one’s own priceless, valuable Lineages is hi~level sin. Any shred of goodness still existing within Chindia today is entirely owning to caste system. Varna is actually tamilian word. Colours refer to innate tendencies within different peoples (the three point division of Prakriti /Nature into Truth, Temporal Rulership, Dramavaji aka known as satgun, rajgun, tamasgun and point clues to ethnic cultural differences.Strong tribes fulfilled all tasks of the four stages of life and four divisions of labour amongst themselves and thus greater racial purity was maintained. And quality of their economic output was superior because epigenetics etc. Eg sect of bonesetters their medical knowledge was of great Renown and repute. Ditto for all other professions and arts such as Sangeet music astrology, the calendar precision timekeeping etc

// Neither have Hindus. At least the brutality of Muslims is studied as part of the standard curriculum in India. The brutality of Hindus is largely ignored. //

What are you on about ? Everything wrong in India always gets linked to Hindus & Indian culture {essentially Hindus gets the blame for everything wrong & Saramanas are presented as Ideal indigenous culture of India aka ‘Magadha Culture’.}

The role of Islam can be observed more clearly because monotheistic religions made identities the central point rather than ideas or concepts unlike previous cultures. Thus the fuzziness of culture before and hardening of Identities since is a marked change that must be explored.

I brought up the Aryans here in response to a reader bringing up the actions of Muhammad and 7th century Arabs. If the latter’s actions subconsciously pollute Muslims today (as OP argued), then the same is true for Aryans visa-vis Hindus.

Also, the fact that some Hindus are unfamiliar with the term “Aryans” is irrelevant. The point is they identify as the inheritors/descendants of these “first-Hindus”, who promulgated Sanskrit and the Vedic texts.

As for Hindu disinterest, I think one needs only read the explosion of comments (and vitriol) on this forum whenever I reference the Aryan misdeeds, to see there’s anything but disinterest from Hindus on this topic.

a sticker for a two sigma comment!

I hope this is not a dumb comment like my earlier 2 comments.

1st which got approved is available for everyone to see but 2nd which did not got approved & is missing {Where i explained why i thought the points i raised were necessary}.

Since original post is trying to discuss religion by dividing it in 2 aspects religiously {conscious verbal track, which is quite superficial, and a deep cognitive track, which is harder to elucidate but primal and universal.} & using Hindu Muslim divide on internet.

Hence i discussed Hindu Muslim divide, my perspective about it, how i tried to discuss it in my circle & the 2 ‘religious aspects’ actually work in the real world. I hope this clears up what my post is about.

Your constant attempts to send Hindus on a guilt trip over the supposed crimes of Aryans is ridiculous. Most Hindus, especially the village folks and semi literate ones aren’t even aware that they are supposed to be Aryans. It is a term they learn in their school history books and quickly forget because Aryan is not a term used frequently in public discourse. Most Hindus identify themselves as just Hindus, or by their castes. It is futile to think that they will own up the mythical crimes of Aryans.

OTOH, even a completely illiterate Muslim is fully aware that he/she is a Muslim. There is never any doubt about that.

So, go easy on Aryans did this or Aryans did that rhetoric. Most Hindus, even us dumb Internet Hindus will just gloss over it with total disinterest.

I basically see it as King Arthur or The Iliad…probably some elements of truth to it, but the rest is all embellishment, dudes talking a big game.

Wait, doesn’t the star date back to far before you claim steppe people entered India? Or has some other star been found in the period between 1500 BC and 1000 BC?

the star is older than india. but it continued in india, and in eastern europe (two branches).