50 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. https://qr.ae/TS9M2B

    Very unusual story. Power dynamics of female on male rape. Anecdote of a small S Asian male’s rape in college. I presume said male is Muslim be cause he describes alcohol breath of perpetrator as part of his religion being violated.

    This story, if true, is classic tragedy of the state of nature playing out, one where divergence between groups is showcased to even overcome biological gender differences.

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    1. Hard to believe the story, quora is generally filled with such magsmen. Btw I didn’t know 5’4 is considered average height in Srilanka, in Bangladesh, it’s considered short nowadays.

      “I think average will be 5’9 with some groups at 5’10 and other closer to Japanese average of like 5’8-5’9.”

      In urban Dhaka( and perhaps Chittagong), the upper-class youth already reached 5’8-5’9″, a fair share is over 5’11”. The poor people are quite short on the other hands.
      I’m from a rural middle-class family, all of my cousins are between 5’9-6’3, my uncles are between 5’3-5’8, definitely a massive increase in height.
      The difference is also noticeable comparing Bangladesh under 19 cricket team of 2017-2019 vs Bangladesh under 19 team ten years ago. There are lots of 5’10+ players(excluding fast bowlers) now than it was before; generally, the cricketers are from lower-middle-class and low-income families.
      Bangladeshis are getting taller at a good pace, so I believe if the country can get rid of political malfeasance, there’s an excellent chance to reach the average height of 5’10 like Mediterranean countries.
      Also, the women got a decent boost in height, once the average was under 5′ but now its more like 5’2-5’3.

      “I think east eurasian DNA predisposes to perhaps shorter height in our era? Maybe maybe not?”

      Environment and diet have more impact IMO. There’s a fair share of short people in Mediterranean countries compared to north Europe despite both being entirely western Eurasian.

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      1. The Japanese av height seems to have gone up from 5ft3 in mid 19th Cent to 5ft9 today.

        It is due to food habits. Food habits cuts both ways – nowadays there is lot of unhealthy stuff in processed foods, at the same availability of better food quantity and quality wise has improved heights as well as other health.

        On the whole excess of meat , sugar and alcohol is to be cut by individual discipline or govt action

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      2. Keep in mind that the known mesolithic south Asian skeletons were quite tall, so AASI-rich south Asians being tall in the presence of a suitable environment is not surprising.
        As far as Japan is concerned, I have seen 3 estimates- all of which are 5’7 to 5’7.5 for the male average so IDK where you are getting 5’9 from. Measured average among adult males in 2005 was 5’7.5 while the measured average among 17 year olds in 2013 was 5’7. Looks stable to me.
        Measured heights of south Korean conscripts in 2017 was 5’8.5. This shouldn’t be surprising either since east Asians aren’t as ectomorphic as south Asians are, so I would expect the south Asian-especially the AASI-rich south Asians to have a greater genetic height potential than northeast Asians on average (who tend to be more endomorphic than south Asians).

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        1. my thing is why are AASI rich tribals so short? Onge seem short in pictures.

          African tribals like Masai are tall. Is S Asian nutrition that trash for tribals?

          Also, thanks for correction for Japanese. I mixed up Japanese and Korean.

          I also don’t know what to make of reputation of height being highest in NW. Honestly, I can believe bigger bone structure potentially. But height I just don’t know. Nutrition has always been the best in the NW and best eating habits in terms of heavy protein, high enough calories, and glorifying strong physique, especially in recent history with disproportionate army recruiting post martial race theory partially secondary to 1857 mutiny.

          I can believe a potential average of 5’10 for subcontinent with good nutrition. But that is legit 100 years away potentially.

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          1. Based on what I have read, Onge isn’t exactly the same as AASI and keep in mind- they have been living on an island for quite a time so insular dwarfism would have come into play.
            I think that the reason for lower heights of the AASI-rich populations today are primarily due to both bad nutrition both over the short and the long term. Northwest Indians, while they don’t eat much meat do consume more calories and milk than southern Indians. IDK how long it will take to regain the lost height since the mesolithic.

            As far as bone structure is concerned, AASI era hunter gatherers were described as being both tall and robust by ‘The People of South Asia: The Biological Anthropology of India, Pakistan, and Nepal’. Heights went up to 192 cm, while in farmana, an eastern Indus valley site (should have more AASI than western IVC sites) had one 187 cm tall male from a sample of 12.

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        2. facial robustness is often what anthropology books refer to when discussing robust features. Australian aboriginals have robust faces across the board but some subgroups are small and big body framed depending. Those of Gilgit Baltistan often have robust faces but smaller body frame than nearby Punjabis.

          Body frame is joint size (wrist and ankle), clavicle width, pelvic bulk, rib cage depth, etc. NW produces more men with hulking frame but again that is anecdotal.

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          1. Speaking of Australian Aboriginals- there was Mungo man who is reported to have possibly been 6’5″ when he was alive.

            As far as I recall, the book also referred to robust skeletons, though I didn’t come across measurements in the available section.

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  2. There is a noticeable difference in average height that I have observed between the urban populace vs rural migrants in Indian cities. I realize that nutrition has a large impact (especially things such as iodine deficiency and lack of protein), as does polluted air and water sources (hopefully the effects of toilet building kick in a few years from now).

    The only regions where I’ve noticed an absence of this rural-urban height divide are in Punjab, Haryana and western UP which are fertile wheat-growing areas and where physical strength garners respect from society. Perhaps Kerala too where the whole state is somewhat semi-urbanized. Rural kids from these regions often turn out large and well-built.

    I read somewhere that in Victorian-era Britain, the average height difference between a man from the working-class and an aristocrat was over half a foot due to nutrition and a cleaner upbringing. Is something similar going on in India?

    Do you think that the average height would converge in India to a global 5’10ish average in 50 years if the country gets its human development in order? Or are there other factors to consider that may result in an average above or below this? I wonder how much regional genetic differences play a role here.

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  3. Average height in Kerela and Punjab is 5’7, tallest in subcontinent. So your observations are correct. I think nutrition is a MASSIVE part of it.

    Tallest groups by religion per this paper are Sikhs and shockingly Jains at 170cm. What is common between both? Money. That’s the key. Good nutrition is essential to achieving full height.

    Not sure average will hit 5’10 overall. I think east eurasian DNA predisposes to perhaps shorter height in our era? Maybe maybe not? I think average will be 5’9 with some groups at 5’10 and other closer to Japanese average of like 5’8-5’9.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21560461/

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemint.com/news/india/indian-children-may-no-longer-outgrow-parents/amp-1555556776629.html

    By state

    Anecdote. I am 5’9.5. Dad 5’6 went hungry many nights. Mom 5’3 from richer family. Paternal grandma 4’11 from rich family. Paternal grandpa 5’5 from poor family. Maternal grandma poor family 5’4. Maternal grandpa rich family 6’1. Maternal great grandma 4’10. Maternal great grandpa 6’3 (like a giant in Hyderbad at the time, especially for Gujaratis).

    Almost all of my Indian American friends taller than parents mostly.

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    1. The tallest people in South Asia are Punjabi’s in general, with Jatts being the tallest in particular (not Jaats from haryana, but Jatts from Punjab – BIG DIFFERENCE. They’re two different people). Oh yeah Punjabi non-Jatts are like 5’9” or 9.5”. I don’t remeber with Jatts as 5’10.7”.

      Pashtuns are almost as tall with a lot more variance. They’re around 5’9” with more variance.

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      1. show papers. I have learned from the internet that Jatts are the best S Asian hyperbole creators

        No fucking way Jatts have average height of near 5’11 lmfao

        Average height in Punjab is 5’7 just like kerela but Punjabi self promotion knows no bounds… so….

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  4. I posted a comment awaiting mod with links to papers.

    Basically kerela average height 5’7 and Punjab too. Tallest religious groups Sikhs and Jains shockingly per secular heights study at 170cm.

    Data supports it is about nutrition and wealth of a group is a surrogate marker for the type of nutrition they have access to.

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    1. Nutrition is very important factor for people’s height. Second, probably even more important thing, is genetics. Genetics has longer cycles and probably did not change much in last couple thousands of years. If I understand, the tallest people in India are those with the highest ‘steppe’ portion. It is known that Serbs are maybe the tallest people in Europe. In some mountain areas the most of men are about 2m tall. Good nutrition could not help for e.g. Greeks, Italians, Hungarians, Turks, Lebanese to grow up more and they are fairly short. In NBA, for e.g., there are couple dozens of Serbian basketball players, 2-2.21m tall, but not Greeks. This is also one of less used perspectives on ancient history. For example, Greeks during Roman Empire were non-fighting units charged to do road maintenance, etc. Hollywood movies which present Greek warriors during Troy or similar are jokes. On the other hand, Serbian (Illyrian) legions were the elite in Roman Empire and subsequently produced 18 Serbian Roman emperoros btw. 193 – 450AC.

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  5. Horrific details emerging in the wake of protests, particularly in UP.

    Indian police and RSS vigilantes attacking Muslim homes at night, reportedly looting families of valuables, subjecting them to physical torture, and forcing them to chant Hindu-supremacist slogans.

    BJP states this is in response to violent protests, though such measures have never been taken against Hindus in the wake of their protests, violent or not. Additional reporting has also shown much of the violence has been committed by gov forces, which has falsely been blamed on anti-CAA rioters.

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    1. any link to the news article for it? sounds very bad. UP and Bihar behind most of subsaharan africa on many indicators. Easier to brainwash and incentivize poor and uneducated to commit atrocities. What a mess

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    1. “Yet, Chief Minister Adityanath remains unmoved. Even before any demonstrations had been staged, he had declared there was no reason for anyone to protest against the Citizenship Act. On December 18, when protestors and policemen first clashed in Lucknow, he angrily denounced the protestors and said the state would take “badla” or revenge on them.

      On Friday, as police brutality on Muslims in Uttar Pradesh made global headlines, his office posted a series of congratulatory tweets: “Every violent protestor will cry now because there is a Yogi government in Uttar Pradesh.”

      India’s most populous state, home to 200 million people, is hostage to the recklessness of a Muslim-hating chief minister. His regime is treating Muslims as the enemy, not as citizens.”

      https://scroll.in/article/948194/we-knew-adityanath-was-hostile-to-muslims-but-did-we-expect-his-regime-to-be-so-savage

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      1. Yogi exemplifies the feeling of male inadequacy that lies at the heart of Hindu Nationalism.

        He’s been a huge proponent of the Love Jihad conspiracy, and features speakers who call for Hindus to dig up the graves of Muslim women and rape their dead bodies.

        A lot of early Hindu Nationalist literature is full of statements about how Hindus aren’t masculine and thus have lost their civilization and women to first the Muslims then the British. The only way to get masculine (of course), is to massacre Muslims and rape their women.

        All those RSS geeks marching around and screaming are basically carrying around signs saying, “I have a small dick and this is how I compensate”. Same dynamic you see in European Neo-Nazis. Pathetic losers.

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        1. This rings true. There are a number of hindu nationalisms, so prepare for generalizations, but both the brahmin and baniya experience is one of emasculation at the hands of cultivators, martial communities and even OBCs. Obviously, humiliation by muslim conquest is the deeper historical psychic wound, but hindu nationalism is a projection of their revenge fantasies that other putative hindus don’t have the need for. Until of course, they can be acculturated to the same world view.

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  6. What explains high amounts of ‘steppe dna’ among Rors? Aren’t brahmins supposed to be having the highest ‘steppe dna’? When someone else asked this question, Razib speculated that it could be because of later migrations.

    I asked Razib sometime ago about how can you be sure that today’s R1a in India is not because of later migrations. Razib said that if it arrived later then we should be seeing east asian ancestry but we don’t so, we can safely say that the migration was not later.

    Going by this, if Rors are later migrants to Sindhu-Ganga area then shouldn’t we be seeing east asian ancestry among them?

    PS: I am neither a geneticist nor a hindu nationalist.

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    1. Quick dirty theory: They lived on periphery of Indus Valley where AASI was low and caste not well established. They migrated later to Haryana and Western UP. Caste system already established. So they became shudras

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    2. My hypothesis is that they descend at least partially from a rival tribe, perhaps a local one opposed to the steppe people who went on to establish the post-Indus valley social hierarchy in south Asia.

      As a result, the tribes not overwhelmingly paternally descended from steppe people weren’t a part of the society formed out of the post-Vedic period, and hence were outcastes.

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      1. yeah I don’t think so. I think they lived elsewhere and moved in. I don’t think any evidence exists foe them being some rival clan and then suddenly moving in living symbiotically. I think they fled rachet shiz and ended up continuing pasturing

        granted, their online trolls will push different versions of kangz and shit regardless being full west eurasian caucasoids of the steppe with an average height close to 6’0, majority colored eyes, and average IQ of geniuses

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        1. The outcaste tribe hypothesis makes sense when you look a the paternal lineages and the ratio between steppe paternal and total steppe ancestry. People, especially those without writing do not remember the past and its stories all that well, which would explain why they were eventual integrated into later society, but themes outlast stories, so the air of enmity persisted.
          There is no evidence of recent non-trivial central Asian/Scythian ancestry as shown on previous occasions. Looking at the paternal lineages, the idea of recent external ancestry makes even less sense because of the ample presence of pre-steppe lineages like L-M20. If it is a recent migration then why is it not represented in the paternal lineages? Surely a later migration of warlike people would be overrepresented in the paternal contribution.
          There is also Q-M242 present at a frequency of 15% in eastern Jats. I am not sure about the subclade distribution,but if most of that is Q1b2 then that would add to the count of pre-steppe paternal lineages. JR might know more about this.

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          1. Okay. So if I am understanding correctly

            R1a:autosomal steppe is Brahmins>Rors. So Rors basically have more autosomal steppe recorded than would be expected by their R1a levels. So basically this would imply they were a rival tribe that impregnated steppe women at a higher frequency than other groups the Steppe people in encountered (in those cases the Steppe males ran over the locals much more).

            Hmm. Interdasting.

            But why do they have to be a rival group. Take this scenario as potentially there.

            Say there were a second wave a of steppe migration a little after the massive one that caused the flux and caste to be implemented and top castes being steppe.

            Say in that second migration, the locals weren’t as quite overwhelmed and the mixing wasn’t quite so patrilineal. Subsequently, that second mixed group made its way seeking greener pastures to modern day Haryana.

            Could you conceive this as a possibility?

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  7. Just got my 23andme results. Maternal haplogroup is U2b2, which seems to be unambiguously IVC (right?). Paternal haplogroup is R-L295. Can knowledgeable folks (Razib?) comment on what that means?

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    1. I am not Razib, but a quick google search says that R-L295 is R2a1. yDNA R2 was found among Iran neolithic samples, so it is almost certainly an IVC lineage as well, just like your mtDNA. I say almost certainly instead of certainly because no IVC yDNA has been announced yet.

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      1. Yeah, I did a similar search and came to a similar conclusion as you did. 23andme shows a map where this lineage apparently came from East Africa, went through the Middle East to Central Asia, and then came down to South Asia.

        My question was whether R2a1 is conjectured to be purely an IVC lineage or whether it could be part of AASI and steppe (BMAC) as well, given its geographical spread. But I guess we’ll have to wait for more ancient DNA to figure this out.

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        1. There is no known AASI sample let alone a collection yet so I cannot comment on it. Considering how most of the Iran HG ancestry passed on to south Asians today was already present in the Indus valley and nearby periphery, it is unlikely for R2a1 to have come with the later steppe invasion.

          So it is most likely from Indus valley, ultimately most likely coming from the Iran HG ancestry in IVC.

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  8. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3190178/

    “The Jat-Sikh males are comparable in height and weight to the contemporary pooled Punjabi, but are distinctly taller than the neighbouring populations of Himachal Pradesh and pooled all India samples.”

    Average Punjabi is 5’7. Average Sikh is 5’7. Maybe average Jat sikh is 5’8.

    There are some freakishally tall in the community so variance is there. But frankly, the median is, if anything, only a bit more. The data just doesn’t support it.

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  9. Estimation of Cranial Capacity in 20­-25 Year Old Population of Madhya Pradesh, a State of India:
    https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_abstract&pid=S0717-95022010000400035&lng=en&nrm=iso
    “This study was carried out on 400 healthy 20-25 year old (200 male and 200 female) individuals of Madhya Pradesh state of India, by using linear dimensions of head (Lee Pearson’s formula). The mean cranial capacity and SD in males & females were 1380.52±94.63 cc and 1188.75±91.16 cc respectively. This study has shown a significant (p<0.05) difference between male and female population, being higher in males than in females."

    Impact of malnutrition on head size and development quotient:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317909611_Impact_of_malnutrition_on_head_size_and_development_quotient
    "Mean DQ (Development Quotient) was 57.46±14.98, 78.35±6.60 and 94.45±3.96 in SAM(severely malnourished) , MAM(moderately malnourished) and control(healthy) children respectively. Statistically significant association was found for head circumference and development quotient with severity of malnutrition and with each other.
    SAM adversely affects the developing brain of children as evidenced in our study by reduced head size and low DQ scores in children suffering from malnutrition."

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  10. Anyone knows and understands more details about this study from Max Planck Institute? (Razib?)
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/australia/four-thousand-years-ago-indians-landed-in-australia.aspx

    Apparently a (sizable?) number of people from India arrived in Australia around 2200 BC and were assimilated. The articles says it was dravidian genes (is there a dravidian gene? or just aasi?) and also mentions IVC. The Max Planck Institute paper it reports on, seems to be based on SNPs alone. Any match with Indus periphery?

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    1. justPuzzled wrote:

      “The articles says it was dravidian genes (is there a dravidian gene?

      https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/australia/four-thousand-years-ago-indians-landed-in-australia.aspx

      ” The study found a pattern of SNPs that is only found in Indian genetics, specifically the Dravidian SPEAKERS from South India (emphasis added).”

      The two year old article should really have said Dravidian languages speakers. In any case, the article does not name any specific genetic markers for the specialists to cross check.

      “Dr Pugach estimates this to be around 2217 BC. An interesting time for both Australia and India. Indian civilisation (civilization) was just about formed and Australian culture and wildlife were rearranging.”

      What ever “just about formed” and “rearranging” wildlife means to Lulu Morris!

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  11. @DaThang
    “Keep in mind that the known mesolithic south Asian skeletons were quite tall, so AASI-rich south Asians being tall in the presence of a suitable environment is not surprising.”

    But we don’t know what kind of AASI they are. They might end up being completely different from a southern AASI. The palaeolithic migrations are still obscure to us. Like you said before, they might have some pre-Iran-HG west Asian ancestry, which is on the cards IMO.
    In Bangladesh, I see two distinct types of body morphology among people,
    -one very stocky with large face:
    https://www.cricfrenzy.com/imagestorages/app/7ccdc70bb37350ee49741370ec4a7ddd_new_thumb.jpg

    https://superstarsbio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Mashrafe-Mortaza-bio.jpg

    http://www.syncmag.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/runa-laila-bangladeshi-singer.jpg

    -the other very gracile with a narrow face:

    https://assetsds.cdnedge.bluemix.net/sites/default/files/styles/big_6/public/feature/images/mamunul_1.jpg?itok=c1act_dJ

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Mustafizur_Rahman_on_practice_field_in_Dhaka_on_2018_%281%29_%28cropped%29.jpg

    https://img.youtube.com/vi/cM33ac00glk/hqdefault.jpg

    The latter tends to have a longer nose shape as well. I guess, the large faced south Asian phenotype came with H-men and the narrow-faced one came with Iran-HG. Autosomally Iran_Hg, AASI and steppe replaced the bulk of pre-Iran-HG west Asian, but their traits remained intact. The same we see in Europe, where in the north more palaeolithic and mesolithic traits are dominant compared to farmer heavy south.

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    1. The H population should have been well mixed by the mesolithic. Mind you tall heights are not only reported in UP but also in paleolithic Sri Lanka, the Sri Lanka samples were as tall as EHGs or almost as tall as Yamnaya.

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      1. Thanks for the info, I didn’t know much about Srilankan paleolithic. Previously you showed the graph where Ganga plain mesolithic had some cro-magnon affinity, from that, we can assume H-men were cro-magnon like. Only aDNA can tell us what %age of autosomal H-men/cro magnon ancestry mesolithic and modern south Asians have.

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