47 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. Varanasi Fast Track Court permits Archaeological Survey of Gyan Vapi Mosque; Hearing of Lord Kashi Vishwanath upheld

    https://www.organiser.org/Encyc/2020/2/6/Varanasi-Fast-Track-Court-permits-Archaeological-Survey-of-Gyan-Vapi-Mosque.html

    “The court observed that the intention of the law is that the proceedings of this case should continue. The court has fixed 17th February as the next date of hearing into the demand for a archaeological Survey of Gyan Vapi Mosque.”

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    1. If you are tapped into influential circles in Varanasi, ask them to clean the river first. Then the streets and alleys. The temple can wait. The Prime Minister has done jackshit even though it’s his constituency.

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    2. The Gyanvapi mosque must remain as a living testament and reminder of the iconoclasm of Aurangzeb. Fed on the Romila Thapar version of history(which I believed), seeing the image of the Gyanvapi mosque marked a turning point for me. I couldn’t believe I was lied to in textbooks prescribed by the state. No ASI excavation is even needed at the Gyanvapi mosque as everything is visible to the naked eye.

      My parents who recently went to Kashi, also bore eye witness to the same. As an aside, while apparently the river is still not clean(needs urgent attention), the Ghats were clean and people were happy with the construction of the Ring Road, laying of underground wire cables and other infrastructure projects in Varanasi. Multi-modal transportation including in-land water transportation though setup is yet to take off.

      Hindus excel at the fine art of forgetting, aided by historians who seek to whitewash all traces of massacres, iconoclasm etc. The resilience of our civilization is represented by the brave ancestors who hid the idols and AhilyaBai’s Holkar’s reconstruction of the temple nearby. The new temple is a symbol of our civilizational resilience and is an architectural foil to our wounded civilization represented by the Gynavapi mosque. We do not need a temple on the site of the Gynavapi mosque. In the era of denialism, we need powerful reminders of the wounds our civilization sustained as well as our resilience.

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  2. She is a bengali. They have taken the responsibility to fix the subcontinent, only dont have enuf time to fix their own state.

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  3. i am read the last pagans of rome. i am again struck about how robust and reslient indian memeplex was. there is all this crying and rending of clothes about what the muslims did.

    but here you are, still around to witness to one’s cultural ancestors and own them as one’s own, and look to the future where you control your won destiny…

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  4. I agree that Indians must look more to the future of the civilization, changing and adapting to modernity. The focus must be on economic development.
    While the primary focus must be on economics, in parallel the polity must ensure that there must no internal conflicts due to uneven development and migration. This is important because the idea of the Indian nation state itself is contested given its vast diversity. To ensure no incessant internal conflicts, we need to build a polity based on the shared civilization identity while accommodating diversity. Some in the left ecosystem seem to think that that the Islamicate culture can be the basis of a common Indian identity (i.e. Ganga Jamuni tehzeeb) and therefore seek to whitewash history of the Turkic invaders. The Turkic invasions were terrible for India economically or socially with its extractive taxation, rent seeking, iconoclasm, killings, invasions etc. The invaders always faced local resistance including most famously from the Marathas and Sikhs etc. Some emperors like Akbar who stitched together alliances with the local Rajputs etc. managed to sustain their empires relatively better.
    While the invasions were terrible for India, some rulers like Akbar managed to create a syncretic high culture. However, this is just a collateral benefit of an otherwise loathsome enterprise. The Islamicate culture now has no takers in the non-left because of becoming aware of its political history. Additionally, South Indians, Marathas etc cannot remotely identify with this culture. Lastly, historic Islamicate culture has lost considerable attractiveness in the post 9/11 world by association.
    While some aspects of the Islamicate culture can be a strand in the heterogeneous civilizational identity, this culture cannot be the basis of the common Indian identity. The left ecosystem has lied considerably in trying to maintain the fictions of the gloriousness of the Turkic empires. Hence the contestation over history despite the resilience of the Indian culture.

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    1. “Some in the left ecosystem seem to think that that the Islamicate culture can be the basis of a common Indian identity”

      Nobody on the left has said this. This is a strawman created by right wing Hindus.

      “The Turkic invasions were terrible for India economically or socially with its extractive taxation, rent seeking, iconoclasm, killings, invasions etc”

      The exact same thing were done by Hindu invaders throughout Indian history.

      “The invaders always faced local resistance”

      Yes, like when the Rajputs resisted Maratha invaders, and Tamils resisted Vijayanagara invaders. Not to mention Indus Peoples and South Indians resisting Aryan invaders (North Indians seem to have folded immediately).

      “South Indians can’t identify with that culture”

      Makes sense, though many can’t identify with North-Indian supremacy either. I also very much doubt you are South Indian. Many Northern Hindus like to larp online as Sikhs, South Indians, Progressive Muslims, etc, but its usually pretty transparent (like this).

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      1. The exact same thing were done by Hindu invaders throughout Indian history.

        there is some truth (a lot) to what you are saying. but at the end of the day civilizational identity does matter. peter turchin has done some work that atrocity is correlated with being in different civilizational camps in self-identity. but there’s a lot of overlap…

        (North Indians seem to have folded immediately).

        this is dumb. north indians were CREATED by the aryan invasion. looking at closely at the data there is an enrichment of AASI & steppe in many gangetic groups compared to sindh. the IVC-penumbra didn’t go very far into north india, which was probably dominated by ASI ppl.

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        1. On civilization identity, agreed. Point of my comments it to show that Hindus hate Muslim Empires mostly because they are Muslim, not because of any atrocities that were committed (as they excuse such actions when done by Hindu Empires).

          From what I remember there isn’t much Aryan DNA in North Indians outside of Brahmans and Kshatriyas, and even these groups derive the vast majority of their ancestry from AASI/Iranian HG peoples. Irrespective of how we view it, it looks bad for North Indians. They are either the easily conquered, or the invaders menacing the Indus and the South.

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          1. Point of my comments it to show that Hindus hate Muslim Empires mostly because they are Muslim,

            hypothesis: if 5% of indian subcontintal ppl were muslim, rather than 35%, then i think they wouldn’t care as much.

            From what I remember there isn’t much Aryan DNA in North Indians outside of Brahmans and Kshatriyas, and even these groups derive the vast majority of their ancestry from AASI/Iranian HG peoples.

            we don’t need to make recourse to words. you can look at my posts.

            something like 25% steppe in brahmins. 10-20% in non-brahmin/kshatriya. closer to 5% in n indian dalits. i don’t really know what you are getting at, but my views are expressed here https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/09/12/the-aryan-integration-theory-ait/

            north indians weren’t conquered or rolled over. they didn’t exist before the indo-aryans. the indo-aryans fused with some IVC elites & AASI as they pushed fast into the gangetic plain, which was mostly low density.

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          2. “I don’t know what you are getting at”

            If it wasn’t obvious, I’m trying to shit on North Indians. Stop shielding them from my wrath.

            Would you analogize the push of the now farming-savy Aryans into the forested Gangetic Plains, with what the Muslim Empires did in East Bengal centuries later, during their respective regions into settled agrarian communities, and thus imprinting their cultures onto these newfound societies?

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          3. “Hindus hate Muslim Empires mostly because they are Muslim, not because of any atrocities that were committed (as they excuse such actions when done by Hindu Empires)”

            I agree with this. They are mapping a modern identity onto a historical one.

            In a similar way Pakistan names its missiles after invaders who sacked and looted cities in the country rather than historical sons of the soil. As they have adopted an Islamic identity, and identify much more with the Muslim invaders.

            Indian Hindus are now adopting more of a Hindu identity. Rather than identifying by which Hindu religion (sect) they follow, or region, or caste. So any historical animosity between regions or groups will get downplayed.

            A general anti-religious sentiment could prevail in the longer term among Hindus as a reaction to Hindutva excesses (I already see this starting).

            But the era of sect and caste based divisions and identity which vote bank politics in India was based on is going to wind down imo.

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      2. I also very much doubt you are South Indian.

        don’t say this about this person again.

        since you made the accusation, i looked them up (i can see some data you can’t), and they are south indian (seems like from karnataka?).

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          1. Just give up, pal. You know nothing about South India and South Indians. You seem to be doing the lazy thing by mapping political affiliation to religiosity, or Hinduness if you will. That’s as daft as saying that Delhiites have turned naastik because they rejected the BJP and embraced the AAP.

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        1. If they are located in bangalore, they could originally be from absolutely anywhere. Assuming our inferences are based on IP address.

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          1. Well i am not sure how many N-Indians even based in B;lore would characterize themselves as S-Indians. The only groups would be N-Indian liberals

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      3. INDTHINGS:

        You perhaps can’t distinguish South Indian from other Indian names, but I can. At least if one were to go by Twitter commenting (or trolling) and commenting on other online fora (including Disqus), South Indians have an outsized representation among people who espouse Hindutva/Indian nationalist/anti-Muslim beliefs. There is no daylight at this time between the position on Pakistan or Kashmir or Islam or Indian Muslims held by North Indians and South Indians and Bengalis, at least in my experience.

        In my personal life, the most rabid anti-Muslim sentiments I have heard came from a Bengali friend. The views I have heard in extended family circles(we are Tamil) came second. On the flipside, every libral/libertarian person I know is a North Indian (Bihari, UPite). My circle may be highly skewed, but go figure.

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        1. In my personal life, the most rabid anti-Muslim sentiments I have heard came from a Bengali friend. The views I have heard in extended family circles(we are Tamil) came second. On the flipside, every libral/libertarian person I know is a North Indian (Bihari, UPite). My circle may be highly skewed, but go figure.

          Isnt that anecdotal data biased skewed.
          Family is close, so more open.
          North Indians: Friends but not your kind, so more circumspect.

          Out here, in the village I live, mixed as in intermarriages etc. Some sinhalese and Tamils* confidentially tell me that Muslims cant be trusted. Turns out their brothers, sisters, sometimes mother are married to muslims and vice versa.

          *Obviously not a muslim, though I look one. Dont do prayers.

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        2. The only right wingers in S-India/Bengal present, are on the internet, considering that there is hardly any (meaningful) Hindu right wing space in their own politics(apart from Karnataka, to an extent). That’s why whatever views they have they profess only personally

          The converse is true of N-India where liberals/libertarians are on the internet considering its safer for them there.

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          1. “In my personal life, the most rabid anti-Muslim sentiments I have heard came from a Bengali friend.”

            This has been my experience as well. Most Bengali guys I know are extremely politically incorrect and mouth shit that will make even the most hardcore people cringe. And these are pretty smart folks.
            Think of Garga Chatterjee on Twitter. (He is a Harvard trained neuroscientist who is openly racist to anyone non-Bengali)

            Bengali women are a completely different species, though.

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          2. LOL, my experience has been totally opposite. Devoid of any martial figure, Bengalis tend to be more towards the artistic/leftist facets of life. So more Tagore and less Bankim.

            Also what i have noticed is contrary to N-India , the more lower down you go (in caste terms) the more anti muslim it gets. Somehow anti-muslim ness in Bengal is an OBC-SC phenomena, while the UCs are more circumspect on airing their views.

            One of my Bengali friends who’s family suffered partition , and his dad joining RSS, over corrected by being full leftie. Of course with the wider Bengali social milieu full of leftist characters it wasnt that hard.

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        3. “At least if one were to go by Twitter commenting (or trolling) and commenting on other online fora (including Disqus), South Indians have an outsized representation among people who espouse Hindutva/Indian nationalist/anti-Muslim beliefs.”

          Just wait until the Internet is launched in the BIMARU states.

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    1. Arre Razib, please suggest a good book/podacast on Rome’s early rise. Something which lists out reasons for their rise, rather than their other Italian neighbors

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  5. Would you analogize the push of the now farming-savy Aryans into the forested Gangetic Plains, with what the Muslim Empires did in East Bengal centuries later, during their respective regions into settled agrarian communities, and thus imprinting their cultures onto these newfound societies?

    yes. but the indo-aryans were way more demographically and culturally significant. but yes, you captured the general sense i have: the ganetic plain ~1500-1000 BC is a ‘marcher’ society. not one where a new elite imposed itself, as is true of punjab/sindh.

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  6. to be explicit, i’m rerunning some analysis so will update, but let’s say bengalis are 10% steppe. that’s about right. but by the time the indo-aryans reached the gangetic plain were they 100% steppe? no. the kalash are 30% steppe (~ANI). if muslims made 10-30% genetic impact that would be huge. obv they didn’t.

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    1. 10% seems like a lot for Bangladeshis. I’m thinking closer to 5%.

      If we are talking Aryans who have been mixing with Indians for the last 500 years, its more. But that’s kind of a slippery slope. Most Indian Muslims have very little admixture from Middle-Easterners. But if we are counting admixture from Ashrafs-like individuals as Middle-Eastern admixture, its a lot more.

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      1. using the model in the reich paper in the bangaldesh samples are always above 10% on ‘steppe.’ it’s 12.6% actually. taking into account 10% east asian ancestry, it’s 14%. the indpe+steppe+andamese % proportions is actually very similar for the bangladesh sample to the kanjars sampled in eastern UP.

        . i just reran some qpadmin and will post in a post shortly.

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  7. “If it wasn’t obvious, I’m trying to shit on North Indians. Stop shielding them from my wrath.”

    just curious, how should n indians behave to save themselves from your wrath?

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    1. Pay the Jizya like our Emperor Aurangzeb commanded. I can post a paypal link, you are all required to put in 2.51% of your wealth.

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  8. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/muslim-league-wouldn-t-let-nation-function-if-partition-hadn-t-occurred-congress-natwar-singh/story-frEkyzzruw1uAOvpCHMStL.html

    Muslim league wouldn’t let nation function if Partition hadn’t occurred’: Congress’ Natwar Singh

    “In my view I am glad India was partitioned. Because if India had not been partitioned we would have had Direct Action Days — the first we had during Jinnah’s (Muhammad Ali) lifetime was on August 16 (1946) when thousands of Hindus were killed in Kolkata (then Calcutta), and of course then the retaliation took place in Bihar where thousands of Muslims were killed.

    “Also, it could have been impossible for the simple reason that the Muslim League wouldn’t have allowed the country to function,”

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  9. APP has won the DElhi polls. Kejriwal was like a ‘B’ team of BJP, in the sense that, he did not oppose Art.370, CAA,. Did not visit Shaheen bagh, was temple hopping, chanting Hanuman Chalisa, arranging free trips to hindu pligrimage places etc.
    BJP under MOdi has forced all parties to be BJP lite if they need to give a reasonable fight.

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  10. APP has won the DElhi polls. Kejriwal was like a ‘B’ team of BJP, in the sense that, he did not oppose Art.370, CAA,. Did not visit Shaheen bagh, was temple hopping, chanting Hanuman Chalisa, arranging free trips to hindu pligrimage places etc.
    BJP under MOdi has forced all parties to be BJP lite if they need to give a reasonable fight.

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  11. Long after Modi is gone, he would be remembered as being the BJP’s Nehru. Forcing even his opponents to fight in his own field of choosing.

    Just like Vajpayee had to be BJP’s Nehru (secular-lite), in few years u might need a Congress’s Modi to take on BJP.

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