Browncast Episode 104: The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia

By Razib Khan 21 Comments

Another BP Podcast is up. You can listen on LibsynAppleSpotify,  and Stitcher (and a variety of other platforms). Probably the easiest way to keep up the podcast since we don’t have a regular schedule is to subscribe to one of the links above!

You can also support the podcast as a patron. The primary benefit now is that you get the podcasts considerably earlier than everyone else. This website isn’t about shaking the cup, but I have noticed that the number of patrons plateaued a long time ago.

We discuss Tibetan Buddhism and the Tibetan Empire in this podcast.Browncast Episode 103: Abhijit Iyer-Mitra on Indian Defense, Economics, and History

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21 Replies to “Browncast Episode 104: The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia”

  1. Probably explains why Dards are mixed with Tibetans (or why some shifted language). Tired of us being conquered by East Asians. Thank god Cholas provided some payback.

    1. I prefer being invaded by the East Asians when compared to the West Asians. Our physical features might not be aligned with that of the the East Asians but our thoughts are definitely aligned. Mughals are an exception though, though East Asian in appearance their thought is more West Asian. In short I prefer being invaded or mixing with someone who thinks like us, I am a little bit more than “skin deep”.

      1. I think I vomited.

        Please tell me how our thoughts are aligned with Turks and Mongols.

        1. “I think I vomited.
          Please tell me how our thoughts are aligned with Turks and Mongols”

          Your first statement says that you’re just a bit away from being a troll and coming to your second comment, it shows your lack of comprehension skills. I said except Mughals, Mughals belong to Turko-Mongol stock. I am assuming that the Chinese, Japanese, South East Asians, Tibetans belong to East Asians. Their cultures, religions and associated practices are very much like in most places in India. Perhaps you can read more about that?

          1. I think you’re projecting your trolling onto others.

            Mughals belong to Turko-Persian stock like most Uzbeks.

            What about actual Mongols? Those are better representations of pure East Asians. They’re the same stock as Koreans and Northern Chinese.

            It’s better to be conquered by Asians because their cultures are like us? There’s no point in arguing with something so self-evident so good luck with that and have a nice day.

      2. Idk man both seem to be bad options, look at the Japanese attempt to get through to India and how well they treated every one in their way.

        There is also the southeast Asian munda conquest which isn’t very clear in how it played out. There is a munda epic of how they burned the men of some Asura tribe (a related one) in furnaces. I don’t think that the story is quite as old as the Munda arrival but it wouldn’t have played out well for the locals.

        1. They are horrible options either way I agree. Look at how the Japanese treated other East Asians. I wonder how they would have treated Indians had they conquered us? Its cool though because some are Buddhist and at least they aren’t Muslims though right? I would rather at least maintain our ethnicity and language. Religion isn’t important to me.

          1. Japanese have helped Indians in the pre-Independence era. You should read a bit about how they helped Subash Chandra Bose and also read about Radhabinod Pal. Many indian nationals took refuge in Japan. Japan stood for Asian self determination. The only thing that Japanese did wrong in colonialism is that they were brutal with whoever disagreed with them unlike the English and the Americans who pitted natives one against each other and watch them fight instead of directly being aggressive. Perhaps you should also read why the Japs had to attack pearl harbor. So far I found that whatever comes out of West Asia has always had a condescending undertone to it. I am skeptical of West Asians and their intentions. Perhaps it might be my confirmation bias but there is some degree of truth about my assertions regarding West Asians and West Asian derived cultures.

          2. Japanese soldiers in world war 2 cannibalized Indians while the Brits for all of their faults at least made some infrastructure and added a bit of a push to the stagnant local economy so there is no comparison to be made. Of course none of that growth compares to the post independence growth even before the surge of the 90s, and it might have not been done with charitable intentions (mostly for transportation of material) but at least it wasn’t the kind of horrible stuff that doesn’t get filtered into the mainstream.

            I am by no means a fan of recent west Asian interactions with south Asia mind you, but I am also not a fan of other kinds of bullying either.

  2. From Times of India:

    If you thought kissing in public and wife-swapping have nothing Indian about it, you’ll have to do a rethink. For centuries Dards or Brogpas of Ladakh have been indulging in both without any inhibitions. The Dard tribe has around 2500 members in three small villages of Ladakh – Dhanu, Darchik and Garkun. Several historians have identified them as the only authentic descendants of the Aryans left in India.

    Historians say the original Brogpas were a group of soldiers from Alexander’s army.

    The Dards are completely different from Ladakhis physically, culturally, linguistically and socially says, Norboo, a scholar who has done extensive study of Dards.

    Dards find a mention in the Mahabharata and other Hindu scriptures. They have adopted Buddhism but their customs are very similar to those of Hindu Brahmins. Like Hindus. They worship cow and Lha (god an goddesses). They offer sacrifices to the gods and are fond of music, wine, jewellery and flowers. Both men and women dance together for days at the onset of spring in Ladakh. Dards have been following the solar calendar for centuries.

    Brogpa men and women are very tall and beautiful, unlike Ladakhis, they are fair with big, light coloured eyes, full lips and pointed noses.

    “That’s why we consider ourselves superior to others and don’t marry into other communities – declares Tashi, an educated Dard from Garkun village in Kargil. The tribe tries to preserve their ethnicity through this insularity . The Brogpas practice polygamy and polyandry. Pre-marital and extra marital sex are also acceptable.

  3. If Dards, according to the Times of India, are the only authentic descendants of the Aryans left in India and, if historians are right when they say the original Brogpas were a group of soldiers from Alexander’s army, it means that both, Dards and Brogpas were Serbs. I usually research the Aryans until they settle down in India or elsewhere and these recently discovered tribes were surprise for me. What is the supporting evidence that Dards were Serbs?

    % DARDS and similar are Serbian words. There is a town in Serbian Slavonia with a name – DARDA. There are some other similar toponyms and personal surnames as well, e.g. Dardic, Dardanov, Dardanovic, etc.

    % DARDANIA was a pre-Alexander kingdom, widespread in Balkan (today’s Serbia) and Asia Minor, which capital was Naisus i.e. Nis. Seasoned pundits will remember that Nis, now the 2nd largest city in Serbia, was a town where the first Aryan expedition started their voyage to S.Asia. It was also a birthplace of the Serbian-Roman Emperor Constantine who legalised Christianity in this town. Later on, Constantine founded the new Roman capital which got his name Constantinople (in Serbian – Constantine’s field). Dardania was later conquered by Alexander and became a part of his Macedonian kingdom. It was also a Constantine’s Roman province.

    % DARDANIANS were Serbs, citizens of ancient Troy. The strait which connected Europe to Asia Minor is because of them called Dardanelle. Dardanelle were later a natural protection of the city of Constantinople. After the destruction of Troy during the ancient Serbian civil war, some Dardanians, led by Eney (Aeneida), went first to Macedonia and after to Tuscany where later founded the city of Rome. They called themselves – Raseni, what is the alternative name for Serbs (which was adopted by future Russians and Prussians). Other called them – Etruscans.

    % It is interesting that one of Aeneida’s grand-grand-children sailed to British Isles and founded the city of London (London and Temza i.e. Thames are also Serbian toponyms). The greatest English poet, John Milton, in his Paradise Lost poem, addresses the city of London:

    “Oh city, founded by DARDANIAN hands,
    Whose towering front the circling realms commands,
    Too blest abode! No loveliness we see
    In all the earth, but it abounds in thee”

    % Thousands of Serbian toponyms in Tibet, Kashmir, Xinjiang and China are witnesses of Serbian Aryan presence 4000 years ago. Chinese came to Xinjiang in the 6th c.AC and Uyghurs in 842 AC. The podcast is focussed on a period after the 6th c.AC. There is not many information about the period of 2000 years before Chinese arrival. Based on the R1a genetics, Tarim mummies, which are 3800 years old, are probably of Serbian origin (there are simply no other candidates).

    % Several hundreds of previously mentioned toponyms are presented in one of previous BP Threads. Some of them are left in Cyrillic (happy to help to interested researchers). These and many other SA toponyms can be found at:

    https://www.brownpundits.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Aryan-Toponyms-in-South-Asia-I.pdf

    It would be interesting (would be a terrific PhD) if someone establishes the link between Dards, Dardania, Dardanians and Raseni (Etruscans).

    % In honour to the Aeneida and his Dardanians/Etruscans, there are few landscapes of their new homeland in Tuscany, thousands of kilometres from Kashmir and Tibet, adjoined with a few tones of Once Upon In The West (Andre R).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0Umq_ajh7I

    or, for those who prefers Chiquitita – Toskana (Andre R)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmPJ-J-8F5s

    1. PS: Julius Caesar was also a descendant of those Dardanians who came from Troy. His title ‘caesar’ was derived from the Serbian title ‘tsar’.

    2. PPS: Hope pundits enjoyed in the above Tuscany landscapes and Once Upon In The West…

      Just to complete the above information with a couple details…
      Dardanian Aeneid’s grand-grand-son, Brut Troyan, sailed to Albion in 1103 BC. Historian Waddell asserts that Brits and Britannia got their names from Brut’s name. He founded the city on the river Thames and gave the name – New Troy. This name was later changed and now is called – London (Milton: ‘the city founded by Dardanian hands’). It is interesting that some other cities also had their names – Troy. For example – Barcelona, Padova and Jerusalem.

  4. So the arguments are

    -The Japanese helped a guy who tried to ally with Nazis
    -The Japanese were forced to attack Pearl Harbor

    Am I missing something? Recommend me something to read so I understand your POV.

    You have every right to be skeptical of West Asia. We don’t have a great history with them. Doesn’t make East Asia better or getting conquered by them any better. You prioritize religion. I prioritize ethnicity and language. All the East Asian invasions or migrations or whatever you want to call it ended up in a changing of ethnicity and language in South Asia. Same for Central Asia, the Tarim, Azerbaijan and Anatolia.

  5. DaThing,

    Do you have a source for the atrocities committed on Indians by the Japanese?

    1. You can look it up online extensively. The brunt of it was borne by the Chinese. The part about cannibalism is from historian Toshiyuki Tanaka.

    1. Yep, good observation. ‘Migrants’ (many of them are ISIL fighters sent from PITS (Pakistani Intelligence Taqiyya Service) are free to go anywhere like any other tourists. The government had to send in one small town military police because the residents felt threaten after attempted robberies in local shops and because of disturbing local girls. From other side of the river Drina, in Bosnia (one half is the Muslim/Croat federation, the other half is the Serbian Republic) is even worse because muslim politicians secretly organise arrivals of thousands of muslims from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Middle East.

      They are waiting for signal from US to act against Serbs or to execute some other European ‘project’. US consider Serbs pro-Russian and always ask for some anti-Russian measures from Serbia. If Serbia reject, they activate Islamic fighters to do something. Bosnian muslims wait such opportunity to fulfil. in parallel, their own goals – to conquer the whole Bosnia, to expel Serbs (and even their current Croatian allies) and to establish the Caliphate and an uninterrupted transversal from Bosnia via Kosovo, Bulgaria, Turkey, South Asia to Indonesia.

      1. Well there is an ascendant China now. I imagine a scary world for non-American conservatives is a US with 90s era strength and 2020s era woke values.

      1. Yes, everything is followed with strong propaganda which never stopped since 90ies. There are always enough morons and half-brainers to swallow this and taqiyyamen to spread this further.

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