Open Thread – Brown Pundits

Talk about whatever you want.

One thing: most of your comments on “OIT” end up making me more skeptical of “OIT” (sometimes blog contributor JR is an exception insofar as he tends to present his arguments more tightly and offer plausible hypotheses). Half the time is spent in arguments that I don’t even necessarily hold. Anyway, just had to be honest about this.

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INDTHINGS
INDTHINGS
3 years ago

India once again scoring own goals through their terrible messaging. This is the problem with too much nationalism, it makes you stupid. Some nationalist parties like AKP’s Erdogan only act stupid to exploit stupid voters, but the BJP is actually stupid.

Why claim China has invaded your territory if you aren’t either going to:
A: fight them back, play to your nationalist base, and show the world India is tough and China ain’t shit.
B: portray China as a bully and make your case internationally, avoiding costly military mobilization,.martial allies (like US) for help.

Instead of doing one correctly, they just half-assed both, and accomplished neither. And then Modi goes and says China never was in India territory to begin with! Agh! For fucks sake man!

You are giving the territory to China, and doing so after your troops were wrecked (making India look weak and conquered), but can’t even martial international support because you are claiming that territory was always China’s to begin with (so China did nothing wrong), and are implying the Indian soldiers were rightfully killed for trespassing in Chinese territory!

To top it all off, India is NOW spending resources to organize lots of military at the border (which everyone knows they will not use). China had no decent plan coming in , but has somehow accomplished everything they could have dreamed through horrific mismanagement by India. Taken the territory they wanted, made India look weak, made themselves look strong, and all without looking like an imperialist bully.

I thought India flubbed Balakot last year but this was just awful.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  INDTHINGS

Totally agree. China has shown “Hindu Hriday Samrat” his place (as we say in Urdu “auqaat”).

If Pakistan had killed 20 Indian soldiers, India would have attempted an invasion by now. But since it’s China, their great “nationalist” leader says “No one crossed into Indian territory”. So Indian soldiers crossed into China and were killed in self-defense?

India can only bully smaller countries like Nepal. It is no match for nuclear-armed Pakistan and certainly not for China.

“Hindu Hriday Samrat” is right about one thing though. Ladakh is not “Indian” territory. it is part of Occupied Kashmir.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

“If Pakistan had killed 20 Indian soldiers, India would have attempted an invasion by now.”

Like the way we attempted to invade Pakistan, just after Kargil-99 and Mumbai 2008, right?

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

If not an invasion, you all would have done some “surgical strikes”.

The point is you people are not even capable of taking on the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, let alone China. And you think you are a “superpower”. Indians are seriously the most delusional people on earth.

As a Pakistani, I’m sitting back and enjoying your national humiliation. Not above a bit of schadenfreude.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

LOL, enjoy it bro, after what u go thru here, i dont envy whatever little solace u get

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Your schadenfreude is illusory. The fact is there is much more information coming from India , both from the govt and press. In the case of China, there is a total blackout as in other things. Very likely Chinese casualties were more than India’s.

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Pakistan’s tactics are the self-defeating ones of 18th century Indian princes who bitterly fought each other and had tremendous schadenfreude in a beggar-thy-neighbor policy , ceding all their sovereignty to the British.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

VijayVan,

“Very likely China’s casualties were more than India’s”– If that were the case, “Hindu Hriday Samrat” would not be shamefully lying and saying that China did not invade India’s territory.

You people are totally delusional. You are nothing in front of China.

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

India-China clashes in Ladakh have given Pakistanis like Kabir an overdose of joy and sent them to the seventh heaven as if Pakistan is going to gain something from it. China has long term strategies in the Himalayas to grab land and India is also wiser to it and prepared in wherewithal and psychologically. In any case China gives a fuck to Pakistan as all it’s policies are self centered . Even as the irrational exuberance of Pakistan is on full throttle , it is losing women and sovereignty to China.

This is not 1962 , where Nehru was under an illusion the two asian neighbors won’t fight. The shattering of that illusion more than loss of men was a shock to India in 1962. The naive trust with China when India was instrumental in supporting China against Taiwan or bringing it to Bandung conference has long gone.

Now not only India , all other countries – except China’s lapdog Pakistan – are aware of China’s expansionist designs.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

As long as China makes Hindutva India suffer, it’s a good day. I hate Hindutvadis with all my heart. You people are absolute scum.

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

India could turn the Islamic republic into glass if it felt like it but would likely rather not risk losing Mumbai. Given how the energy sector is beggaring the country I doubt we will enjoy being a client state of China in the forthcoming decades. Meanwhile we can continue holding Kashmir Black Day while we fall further and further behind Bangladesh (Best Pakistan).

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Ali Choudhury

Against the Islamic Republic, India is only capable of “surgical strikes”. That’s the benefit of being a nuclear-power.

Nice to see you have such negative views of your own country and are on the side of Hindutvadi India.

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Lol. Hardly. I have the capacity to recognise 70 years of antagonism towards our largest neighbour have left us far weaker and poorer than we otherwise could have been. And seriously warped our domestic culture.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

That largest neighbor is a hostile power which continues to Occupy Kashmir and which helped to break Pakistan into two (in Mrs. Gandhi’s own words).

As an ethnic Kashmiri, I will never ever forgive the Occupation of my people.

Fraxinicus
Fraxinicus
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I’m sure all those Tibetan Buddhists in Ladakh rue the day that India stole Kashmir from the Land of the Pure.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraxinicus

India stole Kashmir from the Kashmiri people.

I have never said that “Kashmir banega Pakistan”. It is for the Kashmiri people to determine their own future.

And Ladakh is only part of the former princely state because it was conquered by the Hindu Dogra.

Onlooker
Onlooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

It is nonsense to say that India stole Kashmir from the Kashmiri people-as nonsensical as it is to say that Jinnah stole Punjab from the Punjabis. The Sovereign of J&K Maharaja Hari Singh acceded formally to India.

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraxinicus

We lost Bangladesh ourselves by treating it like a colony to be drained. India stepped in before we could slaughter and rape more of the people who wanted us gone.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Ali Choudhury

I’m not going to defend West Pakistan’s treatment of East Pakistan. But the fact that the two wings of Pakistan were separated by a hostile power certainly helped East Pakistan to secede. We are not going to forgive that.

Onlooker
Onlooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Ladakh was won by Gulab Singh’s general Zorawar Singh on behalf of the Sikh empire. Just as Gilgit was won by the Sikhs and then lost by Gulab Singh to be re-won by Ranbir Singh. The British won Hunza and the areas adjacent to Chitral.
Kashmir came into possession of Ladakh, Gilgit Baltistan and Jammu as a result of Nehru giving Sh. Abdullah dominion over the bits of the former Princely State that Pakistan had failed to occupy. Ladakh was never Kashmir.
When the East India Company put Sikh territories on sale they included all the hilly area North of the Beas river. Unfortunately for the Dogras, Gulab Singh could only muster enough to buy territory North of the Ravi. Had he had the resources to accept the original British offer no doubt Kashmiri fantasists would be claiming half of Himachal Pradesh including Chamba, Kangra, Kulu, Lahaul and Spiti as occupied Kashmir too

Kabir
Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Onlooker

The simple point was that Ladakh is part of the erstwhile state of Kashmir only because of the Dogra conquest. Before that it was part of Tibet.

As far the disputed territory goes, Pakistan claims the entire state since the entire thing was Muslim majority. Kargil is still Muslim majority.

When I say “occupied Kashmir” I am talking about the entire former princely state under India’s control.

Fraxinicus
Fraxinicus
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Your only argument for Kashmir being rightfully Pakistani (or not Indian at least) is the violation of the self-determination of the Kashmiri people. Right?

So why does it matter if Ladakh and other non-Muslim parts of Kashmir were part of a princely state with dumb borders? Putting Buddhists from Ladakh and Hindus from Jammu into Pakistan (or even an independent Muslim-majority Kashmir) would be hell for them, and it certainly wouldn’t be something they want. No right-thinking person who cares about the plights of oppressed minorities or the self-determination of peoples could support such a thing.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

The greatest Indian of all–Pandit Nehru– promised the people of the princely state a plebiscite.

I would personally be OK with a zonal plebiscite. If the Buddhists of Ladakh and the Hindus of Jammu want to stay with Hindu India, that’s fine. But the Valley would certainly want out. Kargil is Muslim majority and would want to join the Valley (they didn’t even want to be part of the “Union Territory” of Ladakh). The Chenab Valley in Jammu province would probably want to join the Valley.

India would be left with Leh and two and a half districts in Jammu province. Fine by me.

Muslim-majority areas cannot permanently live under the Hindu boot.

H.M. Brough
H.M. Brough
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Lol, by this logic Byculla would get a referendum.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

The only Disputed Territory is Occupied Kashmir. And only the Kashmiri people were promised a plebiscite.

Muslims in “India proper” are the descendants of those who chose to stay in India at Partition. Their ancestors made their choices.

Onlooker
Onlooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

The name of the territory of the Princely State was Jammu and Kashmir, and Ladakh belonged to a Dogra King. It became the independent State of Jammu and Kashmir for a few months before acceding to India where it was till recently the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Onlooker,

Repeat yourself all you like. My country calls all of the former princely state under India’s control OCCUPIED Kashmir and I will continue to use that convention.

Deal with it.

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

\My country calls…\
I thought you were US citizen

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

There’s such a thing as dual citizenship. This is really not that difficult to understand.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  INDTHINGS

I dont know where did u come across that Chinese doesn’t come across as bully, in recent engagement. I mean unless u r reading global times. Everyone knows what happened, its different thing to acknowledge publicly.

On International help i think unless in case of full scale war, India would not Marshall allies. Kargil would be a good example.It has no outstanding military arrangement with anyone. On diplomatic front Chinese have done far more on other fronts for so much longer with hardly any blowback.

The choice is to de-escalate to live and fight another day, or to escalate and be prepared for a limited war. From what i can see the only non-partisan people who are criticizing Modi are mostly ex-army men. Others had chosen a side and their views b4 the conflict.

The doves of yesterday , have become nationalist today, the nationalist of yesterday, pragmatist today

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  INDTHINGS

I mean the US blames China already for this fiasco. That’s been reported on already. India and Australia recently signed an agreement to use each other’s bases. And India got more votes than Ireland and Norway to be a rotating UNSC member. Many reasons for that but clearly India has a good international image for UN leadership. It is also going to be part of the leadership of the WHO and push for upcoming Corona probe.

And yeah I have no idea why Modi didn’t admit territory was lost. Disputed territory became Chinese territory. He should have just said it.

But yeah India is in trouble in general with Nepal. Commies have taken over. And now China is emboldened to do more. This is quite messy. I can see why Pak is gleeful. But China is not to be underestimated. Once again India got a hard lesson.

Shahid
Shahid
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

I live in Yorkshire and also lived in the Midlands. Ill tell you if you go to foster care homes in the northern towns. It is filled with Zayn Maliks and Dynamos in every alley. You will see more Pakistani boys with white girls than any other combination in these parts. If you think grooming gangs are rape then you’re wrong. I can post thousands of askfm accounts of white females in these towns admitting they’re Pakki shaggers.
Here is proof down here
https://mobile.twitter.com/svhevns/status/1086751355312787458

There is a reason the BNP and Britain first use words such as Pakki shagger to describe these females and not Indian shagger.

Also another fact is Mirpuri guys are much tougher than black guys. Ive seen Mirpuri guys fight white and black Nazis at the same time and drop the boys clean to the ground. Go to any prison in the northern towns. The Mirpuris run it by margins. If you Google the most dangerous areas of britain and homicide rates. Its not brixton where black guys live and its not liverpool either. Its all mostly in the west yorkshire regions around bradford, oldham, burnley, manchester, and parts of Birmingham. Another fact is Mirpuris are heavily more marginalized than black guys in the sports areas of Britain and income areas. Black people have higher incomes than Pakistanis. Also black people integrate much easier with white people than Pakistanis. If you go through the different MMA leagues in britain like Combat Challenge, Solid Impact, and also UKMMA. Its dominated by Mirpuris and Pakistani Pothwari guys
Look at this Solid Impact poster, half of the fighters are Pakistanis but these are all in the rundown minor leagues of Britain

comment image?1569601169

Even with undefeated records these guys dont get sponsorship for bigger fights like black guys in london who have horrible records would get. An example is Shoaib Yousef who is a top notch fighter who has won European MMA gold medals and fought in 3 major domestic MMA leagues but never got a legit professional promoter. You think Amir Khan in boxing is suppose to be good? The WBC champion at the moment was Muhammad Waseem but never got any promotions by any Pakistanis or British sponsors and were forced to go to some Korean promoters to get promoted. Even the British Olympic boxing team has Pakistanis on it. You’re honestly comparing Pakistanis to Indians in terms of getting females or in fighting sports? Ive never met an Indian in britain who can fight but met dozens of Pakistani guys who throw down. Go look up 2 Pakistanis vs 60 english defense league members on YouTube. I find it funny that some gujju little gujarati Indian guy on the internet is trying to act like Indians are in similar leagues with Pakistanis in britain when it comes to throwing down. Where are all the Indian gujju guys against nazi tattooed bald guys when they burn your neighborhoods down? No where and name me a time when a bunches of Indian guys ever fought back against white and black guys in Britain in any major riot? Never, the Pakistanis in the Lozell riots killed black guys after they started the riots in lozell. The Pakistani guys injured 200 police officers in the bradford riots also. All these race riots were necessary because white and black guys regarded Indian desi(gujarati) guys like you as weak and cowardly people who cant fight back and would just take abuse. This is exactly what happened too. You Indians should never think you’re in the same league as Pakistani guys in toughness and ability because everytime when it was time to show your fist in Britain. You ran for your houses and this includes all your Indian Sikh coward friends too. Its just Mirpuris and Pathans who fought back. The Lynx gang in the 1980s was a Mirpuri and Pathan gang.

Another misconception is the looks factor. Most Mirpuris are not even brown, they’re olive white toned in Britain, look at Meggy Khan the drug dealer in areas of Bradford. He looks nothing like any Indian person. A lot of the Mirpuris have blue and green eye in the northern towns. Look at Sham Idrees the Mirpuri Kashmiri youtuber in Britain. These are typical looks for Mirpuris. The ONLY thing that differentiates Pakistanis from black guys is black guys and girls marry out and assimilate with whites by a lot. At least 59% of black females marry white guys in Britain statistically.
Almost 35% of black caribbean women marry white guys too
These numbers are way too high for black females marrying out.
The difference is Pakistanis don’t assimilate with mainstream society in general but run the most dangerous parts of the country generally
comment image

Shahid Hunza
Shahid Hunza
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

You live in new jersey and you want to talk about Mirpuris? The Mirpuris would run New Jersey and New York if they were there. Also majority of Mirpuris I’ve met a scores lighter than Indians with colored. Meggy Khan, Sham Idrees, Gucci Khan are all Mirpuri or half Mirpuri. In America 99% of Americans consider Pakistanis as middle eastern and even the government labels Pakistanis as a greater middle eastern land. I dont think Pashtuns/Baloch/Mirpuris/Wakhis/Paharis/Northern Punjabis look at all similar to Indian people. Many Hispanics and MENA people look more Indian than most of these men. They’re just 500,000 Pakistanis in all of America and they’re Muhajirs and Lahoris. They look like Indian people and act like them too.

Onlooker
Onlooker
3 years ago
Reply to  INDTHINGS

Typical Indian behaviour, half bluff and bluster, half stern determination, and failing at both. This is what Vajpayee did as well when he marched his men up the hill like the good old Duke of York, and then down again, after the terror attack on Pakistan.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Onlooker

yup even pro India parts of reddit and quora are angry. Modi behaved just like the former Poet PM. India needs someone with resolve of Indira. Maybe that MP from Ladakh. He shows fiery promise.

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

thewarlock:
this sounds clever but you are totally wrong. read up 🙂

Shahid Hunza
Shahid Hunza
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

90% of MMA fighters in the higher division weights in britain and lower division weights are Mirpuri Pakistanis. All this brown guys this and brown guys that. All Mirpuris look lighter than MENA and Hispanic guys and much taller with fast hands too meaning they’re not pot bellies either like Indian guys are. Okcupid said Indian guys but not Pakistani guys. Half of Pakistan is Afghanistan and Afpak is a known middle eastern concept land in America. According to 2016 survey, Pakistanis were rated as the third most attractive men whereas Indian guys never make top 100, and don’t get me started on how nasty Indian women look.

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/pak-origin-plotter-tahawwur-rana-behind-26-11-mumbai-attacks-arrested-faces-extradition/story-JAd01AdFnQyfZT3QWztbnO.html

Pak origin Mumbai 26/11 plotter Tahawwur Rana arrested – faces extradition to India

“Rana, 59, a known close associate of David Coleman Headley – one of the main conspirators behind the attacks on India’s financial hub that killed 166 people – was serving a 14-year sentence in a Los Angeles federal prison when he was granted an early release last week because of poor health and being infected by the coronavirus.”

Siddharth
Siddharth
3 years ago

Counties far poorer or smaller than India could have achieved outcomes far better with better management from the top.

The events as we know them still don’t add up, despite the cottage industry in satellite imagery that’s sprung up. By keeping everyone in the dark, the govt is only playing into the CCP’s hands and giving yet more fuel to the opposition. And the messaging has been contradictory and terrible. I don’t know why they don’t come out with the full story to garner some international support, the time for giving the opponent a chance to make a face saving exit is long gone.

Like most things, I think the blame lies somewhere in the babu-dominated defence and diplomatic establishment that looks at the world based on what it wants to see as opposed to the ground reality.

But I think there’s more coming.

Ronen
Ronen
3 years ago
Reply to  Siddharth

“The events as we know them still don’t add up”

Some of the events don’t add up, others pretty much do.

The north section revolves around the Galwan valley:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Gallowan+River/@34.7651295,78.2024173,11244m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x38fe8ef048f02ea9:0x2ceab753912f46f1!8m2!3d34.7589668!4d78.1701053

See the dashed line? That’s the LAC on the ground, PP14 where the fighting broke out is in that area. The local Chinese commanders had agreed to withdraw their positions but did not follow through on the agreement.comment image

The north-south valley to the left of the image is where the DS-DBO road is being built. The Galwan river is in the West-East valley which opens up to the Shyok river.

Now keep in mind the diagram below:comment image

The pink dashed line to west of the blue line is the LAC, the area India lost in the 1962 war is the region between the blue line and the western pink dashed line. You can observe that there’s a slight gap between the Shyok river and the pink dashed line where Galwan is written. That small region corresponds to the western part of the Galwan valley that remains in Indian control and shown in the first link above.

What this means is that China is now claiming new territory that they never claimed before: Galwan valley right upto the Shyok river, i.e. the entire western section that’s under Indian control. Even Zhou Enlai didn’t claim it in his map which he presented to Nehru.

Now as for Pangong Tso:comment image

As said before, China claimed the LAC was upto finger 2 while India claimed upto finger 8. Both sides patrolled the region from 4 to 8. The crisis was set off by the Chinese buildup as shown in the red circles, which are tactically advantageous as they are on higher ground, and blocked the path of the Indian patrols.

Before there used to be an agreement with the local level commanders on both sides about having a no-man zone in between the LAC where both could patrol and brandish slogans etc. but carry no weapons. What has happened is that both in Galwan and Pangong Tso, there isn’t a no-man’s land anymore, the LAC is eye-to-eye in these areas after the Chinese attempted a coordinated takeover of no-man’s land in contravention of local agreements. The only way this could happen was orders from someone higher-up, possibly the top.

The following conclusions can be drawn from this experience:

1. At the local level, there is unlikely to be the necessary trust from the Indian side to draw up such agreements again, primarily because the Chinese follow them only until they sense an opportunity, move in with machinery and large numbers, and claim that the area under their control always belonged to China.

2. At the strategic level, China is now claiming areas to the west of their 1960 claim line, which effectively means that they are liable to expand their claims whenever they see an opening, thus any agreements drawn between the two countries would be void when China does not have the use for it anymore. This will make any such border agreements far more difficult because there is no faith that China will follow through on its promises.

3. Modi is unlikely to make any trips to China for the rest of his term in office. While some analyst attribute fault to him for mismanaging the relationship this is not really the case. Xi appears to desire a big brother relationship with all of China’s neighbors and his behaviour is unlikely to change. One could compare this to what the Philippines tried to do, get closer to China with Duterte in power by ending the lease of American military bases, then figuring out that China doesn’t see it as its equal and occupies the Spratleys anyway, and ending with the Philippines inviting the Americans back in.

Siddharth
Siddharth
3 years ago
Reply to  Ronen

Thanks for the detailed response mate, I’m mostly aware of the situational background.

I’m not interested in keeping this vexed topic of discussion going ad infinitum, but the bits that don’t add up to me are –

– it doesn’t make sense for even military folk to disagree among each other where the LAC lies in the P Tso area, or even the naming convention of the ridges. And I don’t believe that no de-facto, agreed maps exist that can be shared on this. This is two ostensibly modern nations we’re talking about with satellites of their own, how come they can’t agree on a damn line in the sand

– the events of the deadly clash are still murky to me. Where exactly did it happen? And if there were significant casualties on the Chinese side (I’m not disagreeing with that), then weapons were probably used by the Indians as well – knives maybe? Maybe the Sikhs brought out their Kirpans? Lol. There are survivors from that scuffle who should be able to pinpoint these details, surely that should give the Indians enough proof to take international if it indeed was a pre meditated attack on the Indian side of the LAC. What’s being hidden?

I believe these things will reveal themselves in due course, but the govt secrecy isn’t helping one bit

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

This following comment was misplaced, sorry Anan….

Taqiyyaman: “My word is my bond!”

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago

Steve Hsu was forced to resign his position at Michigan State for observing there was no racial bias in police shootings, a finding by black Harvard economics professor Roland Fryer. Twenty years ago I used to think people in America were living in the best country on Earth. Now it is in the midst of the world’s most boring and lame civil war. No person of intelligence with self-respect can say what they think without self-censoring or knowingly mouthing moral platitudes they know to be false. It is a Dar al Harb where taqqiya reigns.

H. M. Brough
H. M. Brough
3 years ago
Reply to  Ali Choudhury

Yeah. I actually signed the petition supporting Hsu with name and title (and I don’t like showing my identity online). But I had to, for myself if nothing else.

America is definitely on a bad trajectory, both in government and civic society. We will see what happens.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

The only positive thing to come out of the clash , hopefully is the pack up of India “s left liberal cottage industry of media , colleges, political parties and babudom, to get into full on overt alliance with USA.

Again, knowing India, hopeful but not optimistic.

Raz
Raz
3 years ago

India couldn’t do anything against Pakistan let alone China. Surrender is natural outcome of same mindset. Indians know well in advance that they cannot win against them but that shouldn’t matter.

If India want to stop China then make cost of war prohibitive for both sides even with possibility of ending on losing side. This is what Pakistan have done successfully.

China has been watching Indian surgical strikes and have come to conclusion that its worth taking risk against them to gain some more strategic land in Ladakh. 27th Feb humiliation played huge role here.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Raz

China told India that unilaterally making changes to the status of the Disputed Territory would have consequences. It is those consequences that you are seeing on the ground.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Raz

harder to do because India is way more economically dependent on China than Pak is on India. I mean India can attempt some.cross border terrorism and support separatism directly In Tibet but China will kill a shit ton of people to put it down and will block any international media from seeing it. India has a lot more to lose with asymmetric warfare with China than Pak has with India. China is a superpower, economically and militarily. It’s economy is interwoven with everyone else’s. It’s not so easy to play Jihad games with them.

I sincerely hope they clean out terrorists in Pak once CPEC is done. I hope that in order to protect their road, they wipe out the Jihadis.

India is also not a military Junta state where the armed forces owns the whole country and participates in massive rent extraction. Pak has average HDI of Bihar and is falling behind in GDP per capita to a nation it recently committed horrific genocide against, all the while siphoning more and more.money to its military, including Corona aid. Also, they received and continue to receive military equipment and billions in aid from the top global super power for decades. All of of this makes Pak a lot better at punching above its weight militarily but at the cost of their nation moving forward.

India has not played that game. Hence for its size, it’s military is worse off.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

lol too many it’s vs. its errors

Before I hurt the sentiments of our resident grammarians, I apologize 😉

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

LoL!
It is ‘ITS’ not ‘IT’S’, you uneducated HINDUTAVADI…
You shouldn’t be commenting on anything …
You are clearly not educated from the BEST institutions in the west like me.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

Lol you folks and ur theories ?

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

It’s not a theory. They actually told you right after August 5 that annexing the Disputed Territory would be very bad for you. Too bad you didn’t listen.

You people are total idiots and you think you are a “superpower”. China is teaching you your auqaat.

Jason
Jason
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Wow, it’s just like I’m reading The People’s Daily.

H. M. Brough
H. M. Brough
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Cute, but China has also started shit with Japan, Taiwan, and SEA recently.

If you’re actually fooled by their excuse-making and grandstanding, that speaks more about you than anything else.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

Why u acting so weird? Have u lost it? It’s as if rather than Indian , Pakistani soldiers were killed or something.

No one in the blog has ever called India superpower and all, as far as I can remember.

And man , u folks gloat on 27th feb as if u did some reverse 71 or something. Lol. Keep ur sanity and proportions in measure.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

not sure how much of this has to do with Modi even. UPA probably would do the same shit. Other than Amit Shah’s big pushes, Modi is behaving a lot like prior UPA governments with these types of situations

Kabir
Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Manmohan Singh ji never went around claiming he had a “56 inch chest” or “laal ankh” or anything like that.

“Hindu hriday samrat” was supposed to inaugurate an era of muscular nationalism. Instead he has ceded “Indian” (really Kashmiri) territory to China. His own words are being used as Chinese propaganda. Great going Indians.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

same would have happened under Manmohan. Modi is not the leader he promised in this crisis. That’s the disappointment. He should have declared war. Some independent institutes do give India the advantage in mountain warfare for a crisis like this. A Harvard Kennedy school and another prominent study went into greater depth. This advantage won’t last long at all or even semblance of some symmetry, even if this advantage isn’t real. India needs action. Modi behaved just like Nehru. Worse in some ways because he did not admit that he lost. This is a sad state of affairs.

Onlooker
Onlooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

By what power and when did Kashmir acquire authority over Ladakh? As far as facts go, Gulab Singh was a Hindu Rajput Dogra, not a Kashmiri, and Zorawar Singh was a Hindu Rajput from Bilaspur, HP then called Kahlur. Ladakhis detest Kashmiris even more than they do Dogras.

Kabir
Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Onlooker

You’re not refuting anything I said. Ladakh became part of the princely state through conquest by the Dogra.
It is part of the Disputed Territory and not “India proper”.

Good enough for you Mr “I have all the facts”?

Onlooker
Onlooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Not good enough Mr. Narrative. It belonged to the State of Jammu and Kashmir. It did not belong to the valley.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

The entire former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir is DISPUTED TERRITORY and therefore not part of “India Proper”.

You can acknowledge this or not, I really don’t care. The United Nations and the International Community acknowledge that Kashmir is Disputed (which is why they use “Indian-controlled” and “Pakistani-controlled”) and the UN’s opinion is much more consequential than that of Indian nationalists online.

Jay
Jay
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

As a “Kashmiri”, kick out Pakistanis and Pakistani army out of PoK, get back Aksai China from China, then India will talk about what’s in store for the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago

The standoff just underscores how important it is for India to become rich and more assertive.

1) Become economically strong so China can’t bully other countries against you.

2) Focus on HDI. Develop know-how internally so you can match China technologically.

3) Become at least 5x GDP/capita than Pakistan so those fuckers stop pestering. Drop a few bombs near big cities to shut them up.

4) 30 years from now, China will be an ageing society in the midst of a demographic collapse. We need to stare them down, bide our time, and strike when the moment is ripe.

None of this peaceful co-existence shit works in practice.

Kabir
Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Please threaten to bomb the Islamic Republic again. You try it and we will nuke you hindutvadis out of existence

You bastards are no one to ever threaten the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. China is showing you your place. Pathetic delusional fools.

Kabir
Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I hope the Chinese destroy all you Hindutvadis. How dare you threaten to bomb Pakistan? You all are truly the scum of the earth.
Only sympathy for India’s Muslim minority stops me from wishing that your benighted Hindu nation is completely wiped out .
Never ever threaten the Islamic Republic again. Bloody Hindu fascists.

AnAn
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

How about this. Give the Afghan National Security Forces $500 billion over 30 years, sit back and watch.

Can the Pakistani Army absorb 300 K killed in action over 30 years?

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

I’m breaking my policy of ignoring you just this once:

Anyone who threatens the Islamic Republic of Pakistan will be annihilated. We are the world’s only Muslim majority nuclear power. Never forget it. Bloody Hindutvadi!

AnAn
3 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

How about give the Afghan Air force over 100 additional A-29 light attack fighters and enough spare parts, fuel and ammunition to operate them over their life time.

And give Afghans over 2000 additional D-30s with enough spare parts and ammunition to fire them continually for 30 years.

And then just watch.

Go Afghans! Heroes of Khorasan 🙂

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

Anan,

Listen you stupid Hindutvadi. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a nuclear power. We are the world’s only Muslim-majority nuclear nation.

If your precious Afghans ever try to threaten the Islamic Republic, we will utterly destroy them. Is that clear enough for you?

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Are you ok Kabir?

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

“You try it and we will nuke you hindutvadis out of existence”

Kabir, does that mean you don’t mind bombing the good folks who work at Wire and Scroll?

That’s really fascist of you.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

You’re the asshole who suggested bombing Pakistani cities.

If you threaten the Islamic Republic, we will destroy all of you. Scum.

You talk big about Pakistan, but you’ve just had your ass handed to you by China. You are the most delusional and pathetic people on earth.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

One silver lining that I hope comes out of this is that Indian media and the populace in general stops being so Pakistan focussed and instead starts comparing themselves to China in terms of development parameters.

We have a long way to go but we can start by admitting that we are far behind China rather than feeling good by comparing ourselves our shithole neighbours to the west.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

“Shithole neighbors to the West”– Listen asshole, you all are a shithole Hindu majoritarian nation.

Don’t get too big for your boots.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

There’s degrees to everything, right?

Pakistan’s most developed province (Punjab) is at the same level of development as India’s least developed state (Bihar).

India is a shithole, sure, but significantly less so than Pakistan.

Onlooker
Onlooker
3 years ago

This OIT thing is like a religion to its protagonists. Nothing can change their minds. The Rakhigarhi dna was supposed to settle the debate, yet they spun it into threads of different colour, and wove new fabric out of it. It seems foreigners began invading India only with Alexander, ending with Panipat in 1761. After Alexander invaders proliferated, though no one before him. According to Golwalkar, this was because there were true Hindus then. When they lost it they became prey to foreign invasions,

H. M. Brough
H. M. Brough
3 years ago

Kinda laughing at Indian Lefties going from doves to hawks overnight just to hate on Modi.

They must think browns are utter imbeciles.

Maybe they’re right, but I don’t think so.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
3 years ago

Lol, did Kabir just have a meltdown

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

lol Pak Defense is doing its racialist and religiously bigoted propaganda again about cowardly dark hindoos. The 7:1 stuff. They will rue the day when China turns their nation into a concentration camp like it did to Uighurs. All Indians are weak and cowardly to them. Inherently they are the superior race. A nice theme that shows up over and over again. Hindutavis hold less than one one hundredth of the contempt Pakistanis do for Indians. Hindutavis think of Pakistanis as brethren lost to a bad idealogty. Pakistanis view Indians as subhuman.

Their time will come. China spares no one in its quest. India has lost the battle. It has lost land. The miscalculation has had bad consequences. Moving forward, hopefully they can do better.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

All of that racial supremacy stuff is BS, but no denying that Pakistan utterly humiliated India last year. Understandable that they would be confident and proud given how they put India in its place in front of the whole world.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

The pak defense forum people are paying a lot of attention to the release of Indian captured soldiers but they don’t seem to be uttering a word about the Chinese soldiers that the Indians released.

Walter Sobchak
Walter Sobchak
3 years ago

What is “OIT”?

Slapstik
Slapstik
3 years ago
Reply to  Walter Sobchak

@Walter
Outrageously Inconsistent Theory

Walter Sobchak
Walter Sobchak
3 years ago
Reply to  Slapstik

: Thanks. That is really useful information.

Slapstik
Slapstik
3 years ago

This thread is worse than youtube comment threads 🙂

Janamejaya
Janamejaya
3 years ago

Lol. Kabir is really foaming at the mouth here.
A Hafiz Saeed inside a woke veneer.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Janamejaya

It was one of your compatriots who suggested bombing Pakistani cities. Don’t be a hypocrite.

I don’t advocate bombing anyone. But if you think about bombing any part of the Islamic Republic, we are capable of bombing you right back. Mutually assured destruction.

Harshvardhan
Harshvardhan
3 years ago

I’ll request Razib to close this thread.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago

It’s kind of ironic to see a nationalistic militaristic authoritarian like Modi get utterly humiliated year after year. Pakistan humiliated India last year in front of the whole world, and everyone called out liar Modi on the “surgical strike” on trees. How is it any surprise that China would also humiliate India? It wouldn’t surprise me if China takes all of Ladakh soon.

India needs dramatic changes to its military and a leader with some courage and tenacity like Indira. Cowards like Modi can’t even brief the public about things; he just sulks in silence.

That said, China is 10x India in everything, so it is silly to expect India to defeat China. That would be like expecting Andamanese tribals to defeat the US.

Janamejaya
Janamejaya
3 years ago

Is it Pakistan studies curriculum that completely deteriorates mental ability or is it the islamic practice of marrying one’s cousins.
How does one become like Kabir?
I have never seen another like him from any other country. No understanding, no self-awareness and no shame!! Still frequents a forum where he is constantly humiliated by the moderator.
And oh, Kashmir is India’s ‘atoot ang’. India removed Art 370 and made it a union territory and Pakistanis could not do zilch about it, except crying themselves to bed every night. 🙂

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Janamejaya

I was educated in the United States. Never had to take “Pakistan Studies”.

And keep telling yourself the “atoot ang” crap. No amount of repetition will change the fact that Kashmir is a DISPUTED TERRITORY.

Don’t worry about Pakistanis. Kashmiri Muslims will never accept being part of a Hindutva Regime.

Syed
Syed
3 years ago

I don’t get the whole Out of India Theory. The theory if correct would mean AASI and Indus DNA would be all over Europe and Central Asia. besides a minute percentage in Southern Central Asia it’s no where to be found. The theory should be put to rest.

Anyways about the whole China and India scuffle. Amit Shah publicly stated that India should take back Askai Chin back in August 2019. I don’t get why everyone is so surprised by China’s actions. They took the initiative to protect their borders. Last thing they want is for India to start making incursions into Tibet and threaten the belt and road. They didn’t want India to start making roadways along the Ladakh and Askai Chin border. Because if India does so they will be able to transport troops much faster to the border and disrupt Chinese interests.

I think people need to realize that China does not screw around. They don’t think in years. They think in decades.

H. M. Brough
H. M. Brough
3 years ago
Reply to  Syed

This is like reading People’s Daily, just saying.

It would be more credible if China hadn’t been trying to salami-slice India’s borders for decades, and if it hadn’t made contemporaneous moves against Japan, Taiwan, and SEA.

China doesn’t care about what Amit Shah says. They saw an opportunity to kick India while it was down, and they took it.

Janamejaya
Janamejaya
3 years ago

Time to plan my next trip to Kashmir. 🙂
Lol @ Kabir who can’t visit despite his ‘ancestors’ being from Kashmir.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Kabir and Prats

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago

Never really cared about OIT vs AIT.

But been looking into OIT stuff recently, and honestly most of the stuff reminds me of ‘intelligent design’ people trying to poke holes in evolution back in the day.

I see some colonialist type bias (Max Muller) in AIT stuff as well, but more scholarly overall. Are there any good scholarly OIT proponent resources ?

Numinous
Numinous
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

OIT: Read Shrikant Talageri and Koenraad Elst.
They are not conversant with the genetics, and pay undue attention to the text of the Vedas (in my opinion), so overall I’m not convinced by their position. But they do a very good job of pointing out he holes and inconsistencies in AIT.

The following 3 options exchaustively cover all possibilities:
1. The posited Indo-European language family is bogus, and any links between Indian and European langauges are mere coincidence.
2. The IE language is real, originated in India, and spread from here to other parts of the world.
3. The IE language is real, originated outside of India, and eventually came here as a splinter branch.

The largest number of known pieces of the jigsaw puzzle seem to fit #3, though #2 can’t be categorically refuted and may gain in favor if a lot of new and unanticipated evidence is unearthed. Believing #1 is like believing in Intelligent Design or Flat Earth.

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

@Razib – I couldn’t reply back to you on the previous thread wrt all the IVC/Aryan stuff – the Reply button got left out at your last comment – so I let it slide.

Some of the closing comments from my side weren’t core but circumstantial. I can see why you got turned off.

Vasant Shinde vs Reich sparked off several leading Indian archaeologists to come back and state very categorically that there is no field evidence for any intrusive culture in the period 2000-1000 BC. This is BB Lal and RS Bisht. Both of them have been feted with India’s third and fourth highest civilian awards for their archaeological services to ASI – barely the kind of unlettered ideologues. There is no abrupt and distinct intrusion like the bell-beaker or corded ware artifacts in the Indian archaeological record. Its very highly suspicious – this lack of a corresponding field evidence.

Ignoring this “curious incident of the dog in the night-time” is pure non-empiricism. Reich is being simple minded when he argues about pastoralism. The same people who have left approximately 36k pieces of bronze, pottery and stone artifacts north of the Caspian region surely didn’t turn into minimalists just before entering South Asia.

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Hi,
I have summarized all the points I wish to make. I hope this post is small. I will be grateful if Razib can point out the problems in my thought process (I wish to learn about the lacunas there are in my approach):
Hypothesis: Central Asians followed and spoke (or were influenced by) Harappan “culture” and “language” respectively.
Explanation: To answer whether OIT is true or not depends on the following question:
Did Central Asia follow (or were influenced by) the culture and language of Harappa? There are ample proofs that Harappa maintained trading colonies in Central Asia and there was population mixing between Harappans and Central Asians (of which Yamnaya are a part) [1, 2]. There are examples in Indian history where trade relations have led to dissemination of Hinduism/Buddhism, e.g.: diffusion of Hinduism/Buddhism in South East Asia; and expansion of Buddhism on Silk Road. In conclusion: Yamnayas spread a version of Indian culture all over the world, which they had learnt from Harappans in Central Asia while trading/interacting with them.
References
1.https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/vagheesh/files/piis0092867419309675.pdf
2.https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/10/13/the-clearly-evident-out-of-india-migration-from-ancient-dna/

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

“……most of the time (there are exceptions) OIT ppl post about the genetics, which i know very well, an have analyzed myself, they seem totally clueless. this makes me less likely to take seriously their other points where i am not familiar with the literature and methods…..”

@Razib, I noticed the same cool disdain in Vasant Shinde’s interviews for outsiders who trivialize the accumulated worth of archaeological wisdom.

Then what shall we, the laypersons, do? Consider this….

The IVC civilization, spread over an area of 0.8 million sq kms (the size of France), built no less than 8 cities along with dozens of other towns. All of these settlements display the same kind of standardization, a formalism unparalleled, a sophistication unmatched for its consistency across all these sites. The channels in the ruins work exactly the same way when it rains in Harappa today. Yet linguists insist, almost dogmatically, that the language of the people is unknown. How did they communicate across all these distances? (Harappa and Lothal are just 900 kms apart)

On the other hand, there are Sanskrit speakers – who built up a corpus of works in that language that dwarfs the output of Egyptians or the Sumerians. The language itself is rigidly ordered with hundreds of non-trivial intricate rules. Example – the consonants are ordered in the way they are produced in the mouth – from the back to the front. And historians place them in an era where there is no archaeological record and then also insist that this is quite normal. While this logic is never extended to other IE speakers such as Greek or Hittite.

Ancient massive cities got built by people with an unknown language.
An ancient language with an enormous body of output was produced by people who leave no archaeological evidence.

Shall I bring out Occam’s razor?

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

>Someone built a civilization
>Someone had a literary tradition

Forcing these two things as being one in the same period is a huge stretch.

Razib didn’t even have to go for ancient aliens. Could have gone for Celtic Egyptians.

Scorpion Eater
Scorpion Eater
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

“Yet linguists insist, almost dogmatically, that the language of the people is unknown. How did they communicate across all these distances?”

Unknown doesn’t mean non-uniform.

“The language itself is rigidly ordered with hundreds of non-trivial intricate rules. Example – the consonants are ordered in the way they are produced in the mouth – from the back to the front. And historians place them in an era where there is no archaeological record ”

the ordering of sanskrit consonants as per the location of articulation in the mouth was first done by panini in his famous ashta-adhyayi, and panini lies firmly within historical period.

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

@Razib – pretty much sure that its 75% cultural and 25% the topic at hand. It is an uphill struggle. Note that I am disputing the date only!

The 1500 BC date is quite the most circular piece of referenced and cited dates today. Why not 1400 BC? or 1575 BC? Is there a stratigraphy based or a C14 backed paper? None…..there is no original source body of durable scientific field papers.

Compare this to European field research where there is a highly networked dense core of archaeological field papers that lay the foundation for the dates for the Bell Beaker culture spread across Europe. The field research and artifacts came first, not the theorizing.

RS Bisht stated it very succinctly “One measure for European and another for Indian!” The closest archaeological candidate is Cemetery H culture that starts in 2000 BC but still fails as rice cultivation and rice storage has been found at the sites. No dissonant practices that differ from IVC practices bar one – burial mode changed.

Its an inversion of accepted empiricism. If someone theorizes the existence of an additional planet between Earth and Mars, would this become mainstream consensus until observational astronomy confirms this?

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Tell me more about the 1990s bbs.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

LOL, looks like everyone had a bad week. Seems even worse than the week Indian military had.

Anyway my view is the glass is half full, India did well to block off the Chinese from its controlled territory. As far as claimed territory is concerned , lets see how things pan out. My money is on it will go back to some form of status quo ante. But the Chinese have at least made sure, that their Indian agents have come out of the woodwork, and for the foreseeable future all the commie Bong/Mallu babus masquerading as modern day Kissinger would get the boot.

Our desi wokes turning nationalist all of a sudden is a scene to behold. I guess that’s y no one really takes them seriously, and that’s Modi’s saving grace. That even after all this, the public mood hasn’s shifted, since they know they alternate leadership might as well shift the whole of Ladakh to the Chinese.

Siddharth
Siddharth
3 years ago

Dafuq did this thread devolve into! Proper schoolyard taunting!

Do the good folks here think that there’s any way for Modi to resurrect his nationalistic cred, short of launching an offensive and winning it? (Fat chance of that ever happening)

Let the Pakistanis have their moment gloating at Indian reverses, god knows they need all the vicarious joy they can get, lol

Ronen
Ronen
3 years ago
Reply to  Siddharth

“there’s any way for Modi to resurrect his nationalistic cred, short of launching an offensive and winning it?”

I don’t think he needs to since nationalism comprises a cornucopia of things in India, some assigned as good and others as bad by the movers and shakers of elite culture. He already ticked many of the boxes- Ayodhya and 370, the UCC’s left but something might happen by the end of this term.

His detractors need to analyze his non-sociopolitical decisions to see how he gets so much support. For example, earlier this month landmark agricultural reforms were passed that would see much greater farmer independence in decisionmaking, and would likely account for a good chunk of the rural 2024 vote. Ergo, Modi has enough political capital to occasionally make decisions that upset some people (in this case middlemen traders) but are good for the country and wider public in the long run. A coalition government would try pleasing everyone and end by falling between stools by not doing anything.

Even in international relations, Modi is seen as a religious, celibate, portly 70-year-old man, and at least from a western perspective doesn’t give off the domineering male vibes that someone like Bolsonaro emanates. He makes the occasional stupid decision like demonetization and has an issue with communication but it isn’t out of control as it was with UPA-2. His bombastic speeches are reserved for state and sometimes national elections along with the occasional mention of Pakistan.

Aside from this, he doesn’t make mistakes that other strongmen do: he doesn’t say outrageous controversial stuff like Duterte, doesn’t piss off half the world within 2 months like Xi, doesn’t make bizarre lockdown decisions like Bolsonaro, doesn’t tweet like a child as Trump does, doesn’t assassinate journalists in embassies in foreign countries like MbS, keeps his mouth shut on LGBT affairs unlike Orban, and doesn’t have an interest in being a dollar billionaire like Putin. Outside of the immediate neighborhood, he gets on well with everyone and just likes making business deals that are beneficial for India, others see him as non-threatening, and that is good enough for a functional leader.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Ronen

“His bombastic speeches are reserved for state and sometimes national elections along with the occasional mention of Pakistan.”

Also lot of his Pakistan moves in a way he has been forced to. Both times he had to react (in his last tenure) were at the back of events out of his hands. As long as he doesn’t have to react militarily, he cares 2 hoots abt Pakistan. The whole last year Imran Khan has been going on and on abt Nazism, and Modi sees that it hardly has any impact domestically, so there is no reaction.

He is interested in keeping his political power intact rather than have some mega design of “Akhand Bharat” and all. In a way he is deep aware of India’s capability and limitation, since he does come from the lower strata of society rather than India’s bombast Middle or Upper class ( who populate India’s intellectuals, media , bureaucratic, armed forces) who currently are baying for military retaliation against China.

Dravidarya
Dravidarya
3 years ago

I think Kabir is choking on his frothing mouth. Anyone knows his address!? I’ll give a 911 call. Lol

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago

Some random thoughts, completely unrelated to current events:

MMA absolutely humiliates traditional martial arts like Aikido, Karate, Wing Chun, Kalariapatu and the myriad variations of Kung Fu. It is my understanding that Thai/Burmese kickboxing, Brazilian jiu jitsu and boxing are the only traditional real deals and have been very thoroughly adopted in MMA.

I am looking for gyms to join because my university gym is closed. The number of yoga classes/gyms is astounding while there are absolutely no tai-chi or traditional Chinese martial arts places in town.

My prediction is that in another generation yoga will be become a main organic part of mainstream American (all of Western?) culture on par with football and barbeque. On the other hand the BS (both in utility and efficacy) that are the mysterious ‘oriental martial arts’ will completely die out.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

In food East Asians beat us badly. But, the non-punjabi food has still not been exported well enough.

One obvious idea is that with vegan/vegetarianism type movements coming up more and more Indian food will be popularized.

I can think of a few reasons why Indian food is not picking up in a big way:

1) First generation immigrants are F-1/H1B people with no chance of green card and no money to set up a restaurant, while second generation are all doctors.

2) Indians look down on setting up such businesses, a few ABCD freshmen that I tutored as a TA were under intense pressure to do well in academics (engineering/pre-meds). It is far more common to find young American born Chinese running a restaurant.

3) Indian food is messy. Not very well suited to small kitchens.

4) Cooking with sauces is much easier than cooking with whole and ground masalas.

Dravidarya
Dravidarya
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

I love East Asian food. I am sick of eating the same Punjabi crap packaged as “Indian Food” all across USA. Being from Hyderabad, I’ve never ever heard about some this Punjabi Crap when I was in India.

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

Indian food is popular in the UK even when much of it is mediocre fare served by Bangladeshis. Mexican food appears to occupy the same niche in the US. Judging from the one week I spent in DC, it is difficult to find good food unless food trucks are in proximity.

Shahid Hunza
Shahid Hunza
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

Pakistanis run the MMA gyms in bradford nowadays

Look at Solid impact and combat challenge its filled with Pakistani guys and UKMMA too

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

“Do the good folks here think that there’s any way for Modi to resurrect his nationalistic cred,”

I would say he doens;t even need to resurrect anything . Someone is seriously out of their mind that they can really take back nationalism from Modi. Especially by this Indian opposition which consists of Congress (62 fame) ,Commies ( the less said the better) and the fragile wokes.

The Indian opposition (contrary to their social media supporters) realizes that its fruitless exercise to out flank Modi on nationalism front. In a way he is like Ramayana figure Bali

H. M. Brough
H. M. Brough
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Agreed. INC set the bar so low that Modi just has to do *anything* and he becomes India’s vindicator hahahaha.

Let’s not even get into the Indian Left proper…nobody with half a brain believes they want what’s geopolitically best for India.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago
Reply to  H. M. Brough

Modi might have bigger breasts than Indira but smaller brain and balls for sure.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago

A majority of the country is comprised hardcore sycophants who have pledged their lifetime loyalty to Modi. Nothing Modi will do can shake them out of it. I presume India will be militarily humiliated yet again next year; maybe this time Bangladesh will do it? But it won’t affect anything domestically, where many of his hardcore sycophants want him to be a lifelong dictator.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Hoju

…Or perhaps majority of the those people actually live in that country rather than practice long distance nationalism , and far more pragmatic with the political choices they have

Just saying.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Anything is possible, and perhaps that’s what they are doing. But it’s hard to miss the hardcore nationalism and associated sycophancy for dear leader.

And you could say the same for any people, including the people of Kerala and West Bengal who RW Indians despise. Perhaps majority of the those people actually live in those states rather than practice long distance hatred, and far more pragmatic with the political choices they have.

Onlooker
Onlooker
3 years ago
Reply to  Hoju

How does 37% make a majority?

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/galwan-fallout-india-seeks-to-start-new-round-of-talks-over-us-fta-120061901656_1.html

Galwan stand-off: India takes another shot at free trade deal with US

“The current situation is that non-alignment is not an option, and the RCEP is out of the question for us. The recent clashes have given us a clear choice on matters of trade and commerce, and that is to go with the US to counter China,”

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

Pakistan is continuing to send and sponsor Islamic terrorists in Bosnia. Recently, in cooperation with islamist leadership in Bosnia, they sent 3000 fighters based on fake travel visas. They also sponsor several thousands Afghan and Iraqi islamists. They are now in Bosnia, waiting for the sign to move on. They did the same in a 90ies civil war. We could see, although it rarely passed Anglo-American censorship, atrocities, raping and cutting the heads of Serbs as they did several years after that in Syria. Bosnian muslim member of Presidency said just before the war – we (muslims) will sacrifice peace for caliphate. And they did. They started a war one Sunday by attacking a Serbian wedding ceremony and killing wedding guests. They have been preparing for new war since 90ies. We will see what will happen. Another attempt to import primitivity from dark ages in Europe. Having pre-modern nations and ‘nations’ in post-modern time simply is not sustainable.

td
td
3 years ago

As i was going through the comments, i saw that some comments were “liked” by me which i didn’t like . What’s the reason for this ?

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Yes, same here. Some posts I can like, others I can only unlike despite seeing them for the first time.

Samuel Isaac Andrews
Samuel Isaac Andrews
3 years ago

Indian Americans have the highest average income in America out of all racial groups. I just learned this. Why don’t any politicians talk about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

Systemic racism is bull shit. I understand it is mainly very skilled, hard working Indians who immigrate to America.

Which further proofs systemic racism is bull shit. Indian Americans do well because they are skilled, hard working. Brown skin doesn’t hold them back. And Skin color is not what makes money in America. Skill, work, family your born into do.

Which, makes me extra ticked off at Indian Americans who buy into the people of color are held back by the white man.

Samuel Isaac Andrews
Samuel Isaac Andrews
3 years ago

My general feeling is that…….

If, the left ideology wins over America and the whole Western World. Then the future of the world is Asian.

Asian societies have their priorities in order.

Western Leftist do not. They take for granted the wealth they have which was created by 100s of years of Western civilization. By, Western societies who knew what really mattered and how to make a society prosper. The left doesn’t know how to create wealth or a powerful society. Nor do they care how to do it.

China does know. China is very aggressive. If the Left wins in the West, they won’t challenge the rising power of China. Then China will eventually overtake them.

This is just my general feeling. Reality may be more complicated.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

“ Asian societies have their priorities in order.

Western Leftist do not.”

I guess U havent met our Indian leftist

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago

“Asian societies have their priorities in order.

Western Leftist do not.”

I guess U havent met our Indian RW

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  Hoju

Hoju:
No judgment, just a genuine question.
Are you a communist, ex communist or ultra leftist? Like you would be associated with Association for India’s Development (AID), heroworship Arundhati Roy etc
Just for context

AnAn
3 years ago

Hoju is a million times preferable to Arundhati Roy and company. I deeply enjoy reading Hoju’s comments. Thanks for commenting Hoju.

Plan to engage with you eventually. You have an interesting mind.

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

I totally enjoy and appreciate Hoju’s comments even if I disagree with his latest tirades..Keep posting!

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago

How old is mtdna M5 supposed to be? It is found in both modern Indians and a Laos hoabinhan sample as well.

Brown
Brown
3 years ago

how many chinese died?

Brown
Brown
3 years ago

V.K singh says india also released chinese soldiers.

well….

Ronen
Ronen
3 years ago

According to this India Today article 16 bodies were handed over to the Chinese:
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/3-separate-brawls-outsider-chinese-troops-more-most-detailed-account-of-the-brutal-june-15-galwan-battle-1691185-2020-06-21

So if the reports are to be believed, the number would be 16 + x, where x is the number of Chinese soldiers who were critically injured and died later, plus all those who died in the fall but whose bodies were already recovered by the Chinese before the Indians found them.

There’s so much grey area here that it’s better to have a degree of healthy skepticism about any reporting on deaths by ‘unnamed sources’. That being said, India Today is classified as High on factual reporting by the media bias fact check website, so there may be some truth behind these numbers.

INDTHINGS
INDTHINGS
3 years ago
Reply to  Ronen

“India Today is classified as High on factual reporting”

India Today is also the same outlet that ran footage of India’s downed Mig as a downed Pakistan F-16. They also reported 200 Pakistani casualties in Balakot (a strike that perhaps killed one crow).

China has reported a few casualties, but not fatalities. This is doubtful. The Indian claim of near 50 fatalities is also doubtful. I’d guess anywhere from 5-15 Chinese fatalities based on what we know of the encounter.

Violet
Violet
3 years ago

Boy it is sad to see that Dr. Hsu resigned his administrative position.

Despite the pessimism of Razib, I was maintaining some optimism that there could be pockets of good sense.

No more will the good empirical research be in public domain or with public dollars. This makes all of us dumb, reinvent the wheel all the time and just… ugh. Reminds me how L’Hopital’s rule is named.

AnAn
3 years ago
Reply to  Violet

Violet,thanks for informing us (me anyway) about Dr. Hsu. Very sad and outrageous. Should Brown Pundits interview him?

This is the first I have heard about Dr. Hsu. I am not familiar with him.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

On Chinese fatalities , i am deeply skeptical. There could be some , but i would be surprised if its similar or more than Indians. Reason being, from all news reports, it seems like it was an ambush, and the Chinese were well prepared, with their numbers and weapons. The Indian side provided them provocation by burning down their tent.

If the Chinese lost as many people as Indians even with an ambush, perhaps they are worst ambusher in the history ever.

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Like I said it is either overconfidence or self flagellation for the Indians. There were already many bits of evidence pointing to the fact that the Galwan clash was not even close to one-sided. Now we have a detailed account from Shiv Aroor, a known defence hand in India, based on military accounts…The Indians gave it as good as they got to the Chinese, perhaps even more..Also prisoners were taken on both sides.
Would encourage Saurav and other Indians to not fall for psy ops..The battle is not over yet, and the Chinese are obviously serious about taking over territory, but Modi has not given up nor thrown the towel.

Read this account:
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/3-separate-brawls-outsider-chinese-troops-more-most-detailed-account-of-the-brutal-june-15-galwan-battle-1691185-2020-06-21

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

No one is falling for psy-ops. Both could be simultaneously true, that Indians gave back to Chinese as good as it gets, while also losing men because of initially being overwhelmed by numbers.

There is no shame in admitting it, i would say considering that with so many advantages the Chinese had, that they could not alter the status quo on the ground, itself shows that the Indian side gave a good account of themselves.

Justanotherlurker
Justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Yes, I am just countering the propaganda about no Chinese deaths or very disproportionate casualties on the Indian side. You and others on the thread seemed to be going by those theories ( bolstered by the fact the Chinese didn’t release any casualty information and Indian official comms sucked as usual). Didn’t you write above that you don’t believe the Chinese lost many men at all. All the new reports coming in indicate they lost as many if not more.

INDTHINGS
INDTHINGS
3 years ago

Its the Indian accounts that make the encounter seem one sided. The article linked above explicitly states that the Chinese surrounded the Indians from high-points, bombarded them with stones, and then assaulted them with spiked rods. It also says that for much of the melee, the Indians were outnumbered.

The fact that the Indians retreated from the Chinese side of the border after the fight also speaks to the dynamic of the encounter. I don’t think the Chinese had zero fatalities as some secondary Chinese sources have said, but I think its equally implausible they lost as many men as the Indians.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago

The UK government came up with some data on Covid death risk by religion and ethnicity.

It seems Indian males in UK have a ~1.5 times higher risk of dying from it than White males even after controlling age, population density, class proxies, household composition, self-reported health, occupational exposure.

What could be the missing confounding factors? Or do you think its biological? Or is the sample size not large enough to draw any strong conclusions?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/methodologies/coronaviruscovid19relateddeathsbyethnicgroupreligiousgroupanddisabilityenglandandwalesmethodology

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

physical fitness and body composition

and most are more likely underreported or screened diabetic and hypertensive with a good amount of atherosclerosis. Basically they have enough micro and macrovascular damage. Endothelial damage is the first step of hypercoaguability risk. Blood vessels are lined with endothelial cells. Main way COVID kills fast is more blood clots secondary to inflammatory state. These men are more likely to have blood clots from what are thought of as lifestyle diseases but do show genetic predisposition in desis. Basically, modern Western diet is really bad for Indians and even Indian one for their low activity levels.

They have to do their cardio, lifting, get enough protein, and fewer total calories more avoid smoking and drinking. This will be only way to have long term fix for mortality differential from “lifestyle” diseases

Btw Type II diabetes per twin twin studies is even more genetic than Type I. But there are epigenetic modifiers that have to do with starvation that influence that. I think indians eating better, exercising more, and getting further away from famine conditions over generations, will ameliorate the situation.

Dravidarya
Dravidarya
3 years ago

It’s Yoga day today folks!

Brooding on sense objects causes attachment to them. Attachment breeds craving; craving breeds anger. Anger breeds delusion; delusion breeds loss of memory (of the Self). Loss of right memory causes decay of the discriminating faculty. From decay of discrimination, annihilation (of spiritual life) follows.
—The Bhagavad Gita II:62-63 — Read more: http://yogananda.com.au/gita/bhagavad_gita_quotes.html

ight imma head out …do my yoga and shiz…

Jatt_Scythian
Jatt_Scythian
3 years ago

Someone on gnxp hypothesized that Ydna T came to South India from Egyptian and/or Somalian traders with knowledge of Sahel crops, How likely is that? I’m not well versed in y T subclasses found in South India.

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  Jatt_Scythian

@Jatt_scythian, iirc, there is also a decent frequency of Y-HG T in tribals of eastern india and tribals and jaatis of south-eastern india.

Jatt_Scythian
Jatt_Scythian
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Either way does it make sense for it to have been spread by Somilian/Egyptian traders?

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

I am not AIT, but my comments are in line with this (main)stream. I am not happy because OIT is getting more and more sidelined. I did offer them, because I think that it is possible, to reconcile both streams. I could propose some exit strategy. However, my offer was rejected so far. I think that OIT is still relaying on segments without much knowledge and they have pretty good financial backing from government agencies under the banner that they protect Indian culture. Malhotra even used his speech in British Parliament to invite them and their government to help OIT fighting ‘unscientific’ AIT. I cannot believe that he did not use this speaking opportunity to say something more important for India. If they keep rejecting dialog they will finish in lunacy. A guy who recently came out as an OIT, did this silently, without much pride. A couple of them, I guess OITs, lost nerves after my comments, tried to shout my mouth and asked for me to be banned. It was a bit strange alliance with crypto jihadists, taqiyyamen, who tried the same thing. There are some tolerant OITs such as MMK, but he also rejects the dialog. Yet, guys who are on AMT positions also show some sort of autism by avoiding thinking or even to hear who Aryans were, in spite of genetics, language, mythology and toponyms evidence. One guy even rejected a potential Nobel for this potential discovery. What is the lowest common denominator for AMT to start progressing from there? For example – Aryans were East Europeans (i.e. so-called Slavics)? Any other suggestion?

Brown Pundits