From Abstract To Personal

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It is hard to always point out one’s own turning. When do we change our views, why, are there personal reasons, reflections to why we do what we do. How does the abstract knowledge changes our views and when is it that our personal experience changes our views and consequently us. How much do each of us remember in how we change our views regarding anything at all.

I come from a telugu speaking state, I am an introvert. The fact that I could personally experience these data points to me implies that many others have seen much more than this and it isnt one reads in newspapers. And hence the accusation of fake news by liberals, for they believe or rather hope that people dont gather information horizontally within communities. 


A cousin of mine visited USA when he was about 13, at 14 he started claiming to join Christianity, held racist views, I was tutoring him. so he could tell me these things. I was an atheist . He would ask me questions on choice before that side of personality manifested, I would tell him to choose the right side no matter what. I was intending to say that one needed to choose the rational option. As it turns out, it seems those questions were regarding disowning one’s family,country ,religion. On issue of religion, i did say that he can make his choice as an adult. On issue of race however, I did push back hard. I would say that the degree to which he is able to hide his racist choices or isnt one today is entirely due to me. On the issue of religion, i hoped he would grow up and learn to be better. He would disparage India and its people, some thing I countered . As it turns out he is 20 yr old, claims to be christian,has his new christian name and is a bigot and confessed to me that “christianity is the true religion, everyone else will burn in hell” with glee. His intention to convert members of my family etc. He wants to be adopted by new set of parents(white from USA, not Africa).Said to member of a family that he would not cremate his parents as he is not a Hindu anymore. He did read the bible, which is significant investment on his part as the only other books he read were harry potter. His turn was a mixture of his impressions in usa as a child and online christian apologia which seems to be the new thing now. His progression of a character is not surprising since I have come to consider him to be narcissist ,manipulative and shallow. I dont think he would have made many of his decisions had he gone to Africa for example. Now that he has, with every argument he has held on to his views and seems to keep finding only the points that bolster his views, even on issues of morality recently. That he turned out the way he did is one thing. Its just that I noticed a change of my view only today. I was a hard atheist. I have gone softer and come to appreciate Hinduism, and was beginning to see things from Hindu nationalist perspective on issues of demography as essential for maintaining one’s autonomy. I have changed my view from abstract principles of reason, rationality,atheism in abstract to one of recognizing that most of that is bs in regards to social truths when seen as principles in themselves but when applied to see the empirical reality,it is what works that gives us the true picture of social reality and truth regarding social sphere.I have come to this view also because it seems to me that in India.Left,liberals and even atheists in general are only willing to value truth or free speech only if it suits them. I cant and wont defend Hinduism or Hindu nationalism on all issues as I am moved more by sense of moral revulsion and disgust. Though looking at the change in my self, I have suffered a lack of confidence on my sense of hard determination to remain so indefinitely. What i will and have always tried to do is learn to be curious, be open to see things in new light, value reason, truth. I hope to preserve some of the ideals i hold dear from who i once was.For that is the best version of me.

The point is that I have changed and I cant be sure that he didnt have an influence in my recanting of some of those views. As it happens I have noticed that quite a few neighbors are christians compared to what it was 15 yrs ago, some of them are crypto. Now, I do have another member of family in usa who did turn christian, we get along very well with him. He is married and lived most of his adult life in USA. He isnt a bigot. And he did not have any influence on this person.

I am saying this as I see this as not an issue for me alone. Because this is what has been changing in India and this is the issue to which left and liberals are blind to and are in denial. The two religions of christianity and Islam have a history of beginning as a minority and turning into majority and they clearly intend to displace all others. This is not acknowledged by left,liberals and atheists because they are running a model from the west on Indian soil not realizing that we are polytheist.For them CAA is an abstract principle. I on the other hand have seen a woman colleague who took part in a protest from muslim background say to our faces that she wants to kill the prime minister and home minister of India.I had to calm her down and say that laws can be unmade and remade and in a democracy no one is going to keep winning for ever and violence is unnecessary and as it is the economy was bad so things would turn against modi soon enough.When I said that while I support caa for the unfortunate people trapped there and not nrc for the whole country, she said no one wants to come to India among other bigoted things before she calmed down and settled for nrc being wrong and caa being ok. This imported model from west doesnt work as it is here and they cant seem to see this for it would require an original thinking on their part and they are lacking in both intellect and courage. This is not a question in dispute for they dont even champion individualism or free speech beyond a glib comment.They cant even seem to realize that in absence of individual rights and free speech there is only group rights and people are pushed to pick a side. There is no activism for freespeech or individual rights.I am not even sure that individual rights and free speech is a cure in of itself but can bring us much needed time to figure things out. I dont believe this country can sustain similar polity while there is a change in demography .Partition was a good enough example already of that . Certain problems would not matter as much If the world as a whole were polytheist. The issue of religious bigotry would not be as high as it is in this world with evangelical monotheism. This seems to be true.So, the very model that they apply in India of religious majority,minority doesnt apply. It doesnt apply as Hinduism is not responsible for death of any other religion thus far.And the only religions this applies to are Islam and Christianity but they dont see this at all because it is a derived model with different population base that they simply copied from. I dont believe this country can sustain similar polity while there is a change in demography .Partition was a good enough example already of that principle.I have come to realize that one must abandon the abstract and pay attention to religion in its own words because the consequences they bring about are the things one needs to contend. Indian liberals and left live in denial of Islamic bigotry, in 1947 we got partition for denial of that truth.Now there is denial of christian evengelical bigotry as well.There is a reason savarkar found place in today’s Hindu nationalism.He asked questions that left and liberals in India dont have any answers to. So they lie and propagate naive religious harmony and people are finding out on their own that monotheistic evangelical religions are not interested in religious harmony through the turning of their acquaintances,friends and family.

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace, I have come to bring sword, to turn a man against his father, daughter against her mother…”.

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44 Replies to “From Abstract To Personal”

  1. Straight from the heart My bro.
    I don’t think that most Indian Muslims( in the west) are against CAA but aren’t against India as a whole. I hope so.
    If people In cities are abandoning Hindu way of life then the education system ( particularly humanities) and left propaganda has succeeded.
    I haven’t met enough Christians (just one Kerala Christian) to have a concrete opinion.
    My sister asked my dad about why is Lord Hanuman emblem in our New Car and i said that that not a big deal. She said that she’ll replace it with Buddha( thats ok i guess) and you know why she’s complaining to the Hanuman emblem.

  2. You shouldn’t be so essentialist. Most Christians are defanged and harmless today (your cousin is a rare exception even in America), but in 1600 they were worse than modern Salafis. There is a big problem with (especially Sunni) Muslims today, but in most places they aren’t nearly as bad as ca. 1600 Christians.

    What would be your own solution to the Abrahamic question, if you were in charge of India?

    1. My solution is to help build up Hindu institutions , ensure freedom of speech and individual rights and be done with it. That is all. balance is the answer.

  3. Wow! The level of BS is amazing. There is something a little strange about the style of this and seems more filled with a caricature or stereotype. A faux cautionary tale which is probably a straight up copy and paste of some Whatsapp hindutava chat group. I have never heard of a indian who became a christian from another faith suddenly have “racist” views and want to be adopted by “white” parents. The statement of “everyone is going to hell” with glee (without the glee) is probably related to the well known belief of conservative/evangelical christians, that without Jesus Christ you will perish in hell. This is a theological view, so if you don’t believe in the afterlife, then I think you can just laugh this off. Hindutva trolls too often like to spread these false or embellished stories with a malicious intent, which when it causes murderous consequences in India, cannot be laughed off.

    1. Its his cousin’s story mate. How is this Bullshit?
      I think he will know it better than you do.
      Thanks for putting this story in a Hindutva whatsapp box.

      1. “Its his cousin’s story mate. How is this Bullshit?
        I think he will know it better than you do.”

        Do you know him “mate”? How is this not Bullshit? Do you have documentation this story is true?

        If this story appeals to your “heart”, no worries, but I sense falsity.

        This is too much like RSS/Hindutva narrative trying to build a victim/siege mentality to scare mainstream Hindus to their cause.

        You are welcome to you opinion, I will keep mine.

  4. Denial is the response of the simple minded. This is the problem. Because the model running in their heads cant know what to do with this kind of data and hence its mentally easier to deny validity of data itself or pretend its not true. It is a simple matter for omar to call and verify if he so chooses or does not trust this. The only person spouting BS here is this MAH guy. Get lost and have your head examined. The whole problem with the liberal/left types is the fact that the model running in their heads is a simple minded model. And in India it is even more so for they dont even value fos or individual rights.The model they are running on is some kind of gandhian view of religious harmony and that is not stable.comparing this to whats app is really strange.

    1. I think this has now a potential to descend into the “fake news” type debate where one side assumes a story to be true and another to be fake depending upon their already held convictions.
      In the non Metro cities of Maharashtra, 20 years ago, there were no churches for the most part. Some bigger non Metros such as Aurangabad did use to have a single Catholic Church serving mostly Keralite and a sprinkling of Goan Population. The Priest would also always be a Malyali or Goan.
      Those Churches had pretty much no local native Maharastrian congregants, they typically stayed away from proselytization to avoid conflicts with the locals. The priests were popular due to their community service participation beautiful Carol singing and so on…
      Then somewhere along the protestant evangelicals showed up!
      Slowly all manners of evangelical churches started springing up….

      @MAH, here is some casual data for you acquired in less than 5 minutes of Googling.

      Like this one
      https://www.ixigo.com/good-news-church-latur-india-ne-1356044

      or this one

      https://nacindia.org/nanded-new-church/

      or this one

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izMm-9PgkwA

      or this one

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtnyxfO_a5s

      Remember, this sample is from three reasonably small district places from three corners of Maharashtra. Do 15 minutes of Googling and you will find hundreds of this.
      These are typically founded by the Foreign missionaries in collaboration of their Indian partners, (mostly Telugu or Tamil) and are the congregants are almost exclusively Maharashtrian converts. The conversions are by enticement, inducement and sometimes just plain old prestige (you get to sit with a white man/woman as their equals)
      These churches are also aggressive. Both in conversion activity and their attitude toward other religions. Many will routinely disparage Hindu faith in their services.
      So before making an accusation of fake news, do some research. This is provided you are interested in a genuine investigation. If you have a preconceived opinion (with or without an Agenda) that you want to reinforce (or propagate), no amount of data would be sufficient to convince you.

        1. Yes. And an anti conversion law must apply here as well. I will never support a one way law and I have a reasonable conviction that even the staunchest of Hindutva folks would agree that the law must be applied regardless of the direction of conversion.

          1. False, the Anti-conversion law was already presented as a “protection” against all conversions, but the law only targeted christains, they conveniently overlook “ghar wapsi”, hindutva folks, stauch or not, just said oh no they “returning” to their ancestral relgions. Kind of the way Islam talks about “reverting” instead of conversion, hypocrisy all. Anti-conversion laws are Anti-Apostasy laws.

          2. “False, the Anti-conversion law was already presented as a “protection” against all conversions, but the law only targeted christains, they conveniently overlook “ghar wapsi”, hindutva folks, stauch or not, just said oh no they “returning” to their ancestral relgions. Kind of the way Islam talks about “reverting” instead of conversion, hypocrisy all. Anti-conversion laws are Anti-Apostasy laws.”
            I could not find one uniform text of a law that confirmed this.
            What I found instead was this
            “The Freedom of Religion Acts and “anti-conversion” rule, mainly practiced in India, is a state-level legislation introduced to govern spiritual converts and ultimately put an end to them. The laws currently exist to eight of our twenty-eight states: Arunachal Pradesh, Odisha, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Maharashtra, Jharkhand, Uttarakhand, and Himachal Pradesh. There are undoubtedly many differences between the laws of the states, but in their substance and form they are very similar. All these anti-conversion laws are aimed at preventing any person from converting or trying to convert another person, either directly or otherwise, by means of “forcible” or “fraudulent” means, or by means of “allurement” or “inducement.” However, the anti-conversion laws in Rajasthan and Arunachal Pradesh have certain inherent differences. They seem to exclude, from their prohibitions, the conversion to “native” or “original” faiths, which can be described as very small. ”

            If this is true, I support whoever is doing it two way and oppose the one way law.

    2. The only denial here is your agenda, your story is BS and/or has been embellished greatly. Phyecon1 if you are going make a inflammatory posting like this, no I will not get lost, and do not be surprised when you get comments or criticism. . Do not even mention valuing INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, if your biggest worry is christians becoming your neighbors or people become christians (just like people can become hindus, any other religion, or lack of religion). As long as no one is preventing you from living your day to day life, and are no danger to you, then live and let live. You are making imaginary worries for yourself or more likely, to worry others to bring them to your hindutva view. If this is really stressing you out, you really might need to seek other types of help.

  5. Bigotry is an issue or it is not. For me it is. And this is the truth and only you are in denial. I can confirm this to be true. That is all there is to this.

  6. And perhaps you didnt read this. I also said another member of family has changed his faith and we have no problem what so ever. He isnt a bigot.

  7. I have intimated to omar, I have one whatsapp chat from months ago and have intimated another cousin of mine to be on standby to confirm this if necessary . I have omar sir’s trust on this issue. To accuse me that I am using this blog to propagate lies or embellish and create yarns reveals more about the loony mindset of the person concerned who cant accept simple facts as facts than anything. No further questions on credibility of this will be entertained.

    1. Omar can say for himself if you have his trust (that’s a bit presumptious) or if he was just allowing people to post their views. Your views can still be criticized, just roll with it.

      1. Idiot, you didnt criticize, you called this as BS and lies and called me a bigot. Moron like you should understand that I have come to write on this blog precisely due to crisis of faith at a point where I did consider taking to christianity as well. But thank you for confirming beyond doubt with your invective .

        1. phyecon1 are you deleting my comments? Some of mine have disappeared. If you are deleting them (why?) and cannot take a discussion with me, just let me know and we can stop discussing. If you’re responding to my comments, I retain the option to keep responding back.

  8. “As long as no one is preventing you from living your day to day life, and are no danger to you, then live and let live.”
    I will give you the Hindutva argument:
    With many aggressive faiths this is proverbial frog in the pot of water on a stove type argument. As the numbers increase, the cohabitation will require greater accommodation (What if they kill an animal sacred to you and make fun of your Gods?). When those increase further it will require curtailment of your liberties (no abortion mind you! Cant sell liquor on Sunday). When they increase even further, it will require capitulation.( we will allow you to worship as long as you keep it to yourself) Eventually it will result into absorption ( like the Pagans everywhere from Greece to Nordlands)
    Agree or disagree.
    Plus, all he is saying is, be aware and ‘prevent’ conversion. He has just as much right to resist it as the proselytizing faiths have to propagate it….

  9. ” will give you the Hindutva argument:
    With many aggressive faiths this is proverbial frog in the pot of water on a stove type argument. As the numbers increase, the cohabitation will require greater accommodation (What if they kill an animal sacred to you and make fun of your Gods?). When those increase further it will require curtailment of your liberties (no abortion mind you! Cant sell liquor on Sunday). When they increase even further, it will require capitulation.( we will allow you to worship as long as you keep it to yourself) Eventually it will result into absorption ( like the Pagans everywhere from Greece to Nordlands)
    Agree or disagree.”

    Disagree, I find hindutva “aggressive”, it is the political tool of the fascist RSS. The western style political process of India provides some protection against them, but they are still pushing their agenda to restrict a person’s rights, while also using physical intimidation/violence, coordinated along with pushing anti-conversion laws. Their methods are a mirror of US “woke” leftists and funny enough their views of conversion are a mirror of islamic apostasy restrictions

    As for the rest of your so called hindutva arguments, abortion rights, selling liquor on Sundays,etc., are you serious? What kind of strawman argument is that? LOL stop getting your information from 70’s or 80’s american sitcoms.

    Human/civil rights were created in the West and came out of the christian culturlal milieau, Mainstream Hindus have thankfully adopted those values for themselves and I applaud my hindu brothers/sisters for their choosing this path.

    This has provided protections for religious minorities in India, and christians have lived well and only experienced adversity with the rise of the hindutva political project. Vice versa, hindus are treated very well in the christian democratic country of the United States.This system created by both christian and christian background secularists has provided much prosperity, peace and well being to Hindu americans and other nonchristians, who have benefited greatly by immigrating to western christian countries in general.

    I am all for his right to express his disagreement with protelytizing, unfortunately when you start saying something has to be done about, you are stepping on individual rights, you are stepping on civil rights, when you are telling people action must be taken, instead of just trying to protelytize themselves, the hindutva project leads to the use violence and intimidation.

    Just to note to the non-bhakts, Hindus (Malayali Hindus the best, sorry biased) and Hindu civilization (without the caste system and other blots) is great, and I am proud of my heritage and history.

    1. I do not think a dialogue is possible with you as you responded to my post with

      1)Deflection: Attacking RSS instead of responding to evangelical activity and their aggression.

      2)Hyperbole: Comment about 70’s sitcom instead of responding to the points. E.g. Even today there are Blue laws in the US.. Here is additional reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_laws_in_the_United_States

      3)Misappropriation:Crediting Christianity for the Secular Humanistic values of the West.(Especially the Evangelical kind) Those values came despite Christianity, not because of it. A large contingent of devout Christians opposed those. Catholic Church will still oppose covering contraception even for its non Catholic employees all the while claiming tax exempt status. Speaking of the US, Roe v Wade is barely hanging by a thin hair. Intelligent Design demands parity with Darwin in school education. The country’s coins proclaim trust in GOD (not Vishnu, Not Buddha, Not Allah) There are proud ‘Values voters’ who make most Hindu majoritarianism look like kindergarten variety!

      4)Whitewashing: Christian Evangelicals have opposed construction of a mosques tooth and nail.. whether at Nashville or near 9/11. Local bodies routinely put up hurdles for Hare Krishna Vrindavans under the guise of zoning, noise ordinance and what not. Sikhs get killed merely for looking like Muslims. Bobby Jindal has to convert to have any future in politics. (Heck, even Kamala Harris has to claim her faith as Southern Baptist https://www.ncronline.org/news/politics/5-faith-facts-about-biden-s-vp-choice-kamala-harris-black-baptist-hindu-family )

      5) Straw man argument: Yes, you made it by stating "when you start saying something has to be done about, you are stepping on individual rights". The OP never said to trample on anyone's rights. Converting people by enticement or inducement is not a human right.. that aside, he did not even say anything opposed to that. He just cautioned his coreligionists.

      Since you indicated that you may be a Malyali Christian, I have many friends in that community. Most I know are Catholic/Syro-Malabar who do not denigrate their pagan countrymen and largely have no problems with the Hindu community around them and vice versa. Its the evangelicals (and perhaps the newly radicalized ones). Mostly funded by the western missionaries the OP is cautioning against.
      Good luck and Good day (or night)

  10. The man is a lunatic, I myself considered to take to christianity earlier. He is a lunatic who is in denial for that is all he has. And it isnt christianity that has to be given the benefit, its the christian bigotry that led to deaths of millions in 30 yr war that pushed a need to move beyond christianity .

  11. One more point…
    your lens itself is Abrahamic. Your statement “instead of just trying to protelytize themselves” tells me you do not understand what Dharmic faiths are all about despite being among Hinuds and claiming Indian cultural ethos.
    Just because you have a sword, I do not have to pick up a sword to duel with you. I choose have a shield to protect myself and take your sword away.
    Hindus do not want to convert anyone. They just do not want anyone converting them either. Especially en-mass by using inducements, incitements or plain old deception.
    Some of the tricks the evangelists play would put good a snake oil salesmen to shame. Makes me think, whether evangelicals should be regulated under consumer protection laws! There is false advertisement, non verifiable claims, fraud (Jesus dressed in saffron wearing a Tilaka, preaching Yeshu Puraan). Bribe (food, money, housing) Middlemen/Brokers. Even their vocabulary has words like ‘soul harvesting’.

    1. My lens is “Abrahamic” Christian, just saying Abrahamic is misleading. Christianity has vastly different views from islam, unfortunately I suspect this is done on purpose.

      The “tricks” complaint about evangelical christians, is a standard Hindutva trope. Most times there is no basis for this but there is a minority that do engender this stereotype, but I actually hear a lot of the same for certain “godmen” rampant throughout India.

      Hinduism and Buddhism were both missionary religions in the past with mass conversions, it is part of “dharmic”.view. How do you think people became Hindu or Buddhist?. Certain gurus and sects still continue missionary work today.

      Your lens is Hindutva, do not claim some mysterious “Dharmic” view that no one else can understand, and do not act as if hindutva/rss goons have not literally picked up the sword against defenseless christian minorities.

      If not for the Image marketing of Modi’s government and need to draw more investment from the west, it would not have been reigned in and been more prevalent.

      I do not say that Christianity is perfect or is end all to end all, but abrahamic christian culture contributed to the current rise of human and civil rights, to healthcare and mass education in South Asia and other parts of the world.

      Today’s prosperous world can be related to western economic models. Western companies are investing in India, bringing jobs that are helping to give rise to a very large middle class, inspiring western style companies in India to do the same and great innovations are happening.

      I’m not saying any of this is perfect, corruption and other societal ills needs to be fought against, but I feel it is the best option to adopt, and it can be improved upon by different cultures and countries. I even hope India or many countries working together can improve upon the model and find the better way.

      1. My longer comment is under moderation (perhaps because it has many hyperlinks) that addresses many of your points already.

        As to
        ” just saying Abrahamic is misleading”

        and

        “do not claim some mysterious “Dharmic” view”

        In response to the two above, I will refer you to this blog if you have time to read.

        https://jaideepprabhu.org/2015/05/01/riflessioni-indias-religious-other/

        He explains the “Mosaic exception” (common to all three faiths of Abraham) well. If he does not do a good job (or getting it from a pagan is too much for you), read Assman in original! You may see what I am saying if you choose to, instead of the polemic you are engaged in of trying to box and label me.

        People became Hindu because outsiders started lumping together a variety of indic philosophies under the moniker ‘Hindu’.
        If you like, call us Indic, Dharmic, Pagan or whatever.

        “The “tricks” complaint about evangelical Christians, is a standard Hindutva trope”

        May be to you, I see Hindu iconography used in their conversions routinely and no amount of data I give you will convince you that it is anything but Hindutva Trope.

        I now feel that we do not have any hope to educate to each other. Neither will we change any minds here.
        Some of your ancestors decided to choose Jesus from whatever pagan philosophy they followed. Good for you!
        May you attain Salvation by Grace alone! (no Karma needed).
        Good luck.

        1. I should have refrained from the ‘snark’ in the last sentence(Salvation by Grace alone, no Karma needed).
          I regret my indiscretion.

          1. “I should have refrained from the ‘snark’ in the last sentence(Salvation by Grace alone, no Karma needed).
            I regret my indiscretion.”

            Sorry did not see this comment when I posted my last one, but wish you all the best all the same.

  12. “https://jaideepprabhu.org/2015/05/01/riflessioni-indias-religious-other/

    He explains the “Mosaic exception” (common to all three faiths of Abraham) well. If he does not do a good job (or getting it from a pagan is too much for you), read Assman in original! You may see what I am saying if you choose to, instead of the polemic you are engaged in of trying to box and label me.”

    This is a tired excercise to engage in with these “abrahamic” and “dharmic” views of the world, this sounds like some hipster claim to relativity or some new fad.

    Absolutely the Mosaic can be said to be in both Christianity and Islam, christianity includes the Jewish books in their bible, and Islam incorporate certain stories from Judaism, but vastly different outcomes and theologies in the world today.

    My christian ethics overlap with buddhist ethics more so than islam in some cases.

    Islam overlaps with Hinduism in certain views as well

    What to do then?

    We live in a world that if there is a “Abrahamic” view, but Hindus using systems and technology derived from abrahamic countries and cultures with no problem

    The christian west uses Numerals that are invented in a “Dharmic” culture.

    We seem to be doing fine without needing a Abrahamic view or a dharmic view.

    When people start doing this I recognize the same methods used by the American Left/Wokism.

    This is intersectionality, patriarchy, relativism, alphabets, making labels of all sorts of supposedly special ways to view things to dismiss others or paint a false narrative.

    People write about these same things also, and the source you provide as well seem good company for it.

    We are going have to agree to disagree and I wish you the best, and if it is your belief, may you attain a good next life in a higher caste or better yet attain moksha.

    1. My co-traveler on this blog, please go back and re read your posts. Do you ever engage on the merit of the arguments or simply deflect, draw polemical and rhetorical arguments? I k Please feel free not to answer that as it will be rinse and repeat.
      In any event, you seem like a decent person and thank you for engaging. Once again, apologies for the snark.
      If my longer post ever shows up, read it if you care.
      Over and out.

      1. I like that, my co-traveler on this blog as well, unfortunately to me you are engaging in arguments that I feel are rehashed and find no substance in them. You can have your criticism of my comments and I of your and I appreciate your civility. You are good fellow as well, I appreciate recognizing your snark, we all get testy at times, I can cast no first stones lol.

  13. MAH is coming at it from his Mallu Christian perspective where proselytization and conversion are his right, and not just his but that of the global Christian community. This may be done due to their religious belief that non-Christians will go to hell (hence need to be saved) but there is also the “strength in numbers” motivation in a predominantly pagan country. He is advancing his interest in the guise of liberalism and individual choice.
    On the other hand the Dharmic majority has the right to follow its own values (who says Christian values are superior, or the myth of Jesus and his virgin birth is superior to the myth of Krishna, or the cruel OT god is better than the Hindu system of gods) which including following your ancestral creed, and winning over individuals by argument, debate and not inducements. It is also within the Dharmic majority’s right to prevent disruption in society that is engendered by Abrahamics who sow the seed of hatred among Hindu castes to advance their own agenda. So for both moral and practical reasons the Dharmic majority should legally and constitutionally make changes that strike at the root of the evangelical project. This is not about the burning at stake of Hindus by MAH’s spiritual ancestors, or how his ilk still practice casteism in Kerala despite using that as a stick to beat Hindus or how they enslaved a whole country to their benefit and native converts also partook in some of the loot. That would be legilsating past grievances..This is about the future. The future where Dharmics will exist and flourish and compete against the Christian agenda which is using moral arguments and liberal ideology to advance its own interest. It is crusades and inquisition when it suits them, and liberal democratic ideology too when that is better for them. I say, let’s use democracy to thwart their agenda. MAH and his type can cry as much as they want but uncontested they won’t be any longer.
    PS: May MAH be born a higher caste Kerala Christian next time, or if he already is one may he have more compassion towards Dalit converts 🙂
    Peace

    1. @justanotherlurker

      LOL! Ok Mr.late to the party, your post and your name scream troll.

      Good day to you sir, you’re not worth my time. 🙂

    2. Before my attempted dialog with the said Indian Christian gentleman, I was ambivalent and even understanding of this ‘need to convert’ the evangelicals have. Hindus should resist, I said, but it is after all their right to carry their God’s commandment.
      As a side story, my kid’s best friend’s uncle (mama) is a Caucasian American evangelical( 35 years old, very devout but a super nice guy) who has been on multiple mission trips to India and told me how their operation in India works. The operation is professionally managed as a ‘project’. There are goals, progress reports, graphs on harvested souls, best practices, tips on how to work the visa regime, trip retrospectives, new member training, recruitment for mission, public relations talking points and so on.
      I hoped I found in this gentleman someone who would at least recognize that this happens and then on we could get into this debate on whether this should happen or not and why. But alas, he went on offense.
      My experience growing up with Christians in India was different. They were Indic in culture, moderate in their belief, respectful toward native faiths and did not betray any aggression or hostility.
      But after reading all the deflections and polemics he threw at me, I realized exactly what you stated so unvarnishingly.
      Oh well. It seems like it is the Joshua project vs the Hindutva project. I have lived in America for a very long time and I know how good the Americans are at managing large and complex projects (and the massive resources they bring to those). I am not sure if the Hindutva folks are a match for them but looks like they are trying at least.

  14. what we have here is accusations and deflection to deny facts. There is christian bigotry in India too and to pretend otherwise is to support that bigotry.

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