Open Thread – 10/17/2020

By Razib Khan 196 Comments

The thread is open. Three new podcasts this week in case you aren’t subscribed. Sometimes I get overwhelmed with things and I just can’t be bothere with detailed show notes.

As I mentioned before I’m recording interviews for a new podcast I’m starting up separate from the others I run. I’m just throwing them on Patreon for now. Today I recorded an interview with the author of 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed. Looking at the tracks…he’s a very good talker!

I really recommend the book, it’s pretty well written. He also talks about his follow-up book, in terms of when we can expect and what it’s about.

Also, I may start trashing stupid comments now and then. Just to keep you guys “honest.”

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196 Replies to “Open Thread – 10/17/2020”

  1. random fact:

    – one of my brothers is a shingon buddhist priest

    – one of my brothers is a devotee of yoga & shit like that (he’s basically an ‘affluent white female’ in his views and lifestyle, except he’s a brown crytpo-bro)

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  2. R u the oldest ? Weird how all of you aren’t Muslims.
    Religious conversions always surprise me. That seems pretty Hindu with internalized “dharma” I guess. Leaving faith ( especially Islam) doesn’t surprise me as much as changing into other faith

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        1. yeah. idk if proud. but it explains some tendencies on my dad’s side that he got from my mom. a lot of stuff ‘made sense’ after that.

          it definitely makes me more comfortable with passing around anti-brahmin memes 😉 [as jokes}

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        2. yeah. idk if proud. but it explains some tendencies on my dad’s side that he got from my mom. a lot of stuff ‘made sense’ after that.

          it definitely makes me more comfortable with passing around anti-brahmin memes 😉 [as jokes]

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  3. I will write a comment but very briefly for now. Amazon says (for the period after 1177):

    “No more Minoans or Mycenaeans. No more Trojans, Hittites, or Babylonians. The thriving economy and cultures of the late second millennium B.C., which had stretched from Greece to Egypt and Mesopotamia, suddenly ceased to exist, along with writing systems, technology, and monumental architecture. But the Sea Peoples alone could not have caused such widespread breakdown. How did it happen?”

    What’s happened with all of them? ‘Dark Ages’ were invented to hide historical falsifications. After Minoan civilisation wrongly assigned to at that time non-existent Greeks and impressive architecture, Greeks in the following 600 years haven’t built anything. How to explain this? We just say – ‘dark ages’ and no questions asked.

    At that time Greeks almost did not exist in today’s Greece. Because, we talk about Sea People none can say that they were Greeks although it was a period of Troyan battle with all non-existent Greeks bells and whistles and 900 years before Alexander. During his rules Greeks still haven’t seen Mt Olympus although they had Olympic games for 400 years (MT: hahaha).

    And who were Sea People (e.g. Serdans)? What small horns on their helmets meant? It is still a big dilemma who they were, but none asked – where they came from and what was their basic haplogroup? And there are coming Philistines, too. They settled in today’s Israel, had ‘European’ (!) genes, came from Aegean but they were not Greeks, either. Where future ‘classical’ Greeks were hiding during this ‘collapse of ancient civilisation’?

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    1. Actually many sources said that Serdans came from Sardinia (lived before in Sard, Asia Minor). In this case they probably had the same haplogroup as Chuck Norris but we will see if this is right.

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  4. https://theprint.in/national-interest/advani-brought-new-friends-modi-and-amit-shah-doing-ashwamedha-yagna/525272/

    You can judge Modi-Shah for being what they are, the most ‘political’ government in India’s history, but they aren’t apologetic about it. You have to give it to them for their 24x7x365 obsession with politics and power of the kind never seen in India. Even their economic decisions, each one of them, is guided by politics.

    That’s why interest rates will not be cut further, the Centre will not give a fiscal stimulus because that might increase inflation for the poor. Whatever fiscal sacrifice the government makes, will essentially go towards ensuring the extremely poor don’t go hungry. That compromise, between inflation, welfare and growth, is pure, de-risked politics. Similarly, it does not hesitate to keep taxes at the highest level ever on petroleum products. Because only the middle and the lower-middle classes drive automobiles. Their votes are in its vaults anyway.

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  5. Autumn is my favourite season, not least because I live in a place that has actual seasons. Which is far more rare than many in the Global North are aware of. Had a family member which visited California for a student exchange program and ended up hating it. All the sunshine and warm weather was grating, even in the autumn, this person was used to varied weather.

    For some reason, the perfectly manicured grass laws also rubbed this person the wrong way. Maybe because it added to the feeling of insincerity. Americans are often stereotyped as false in Europe. (Personally, I prefer the gregarious social mores of Americans).

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    1. Are you of Indian origin? Just wondering, since your English sentence structure is a bit different from the Germanic first language speakers I’ve known. Or did you live somewhere else for a long time?

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      1. I’m of Northern European descent and I live here too. Just curious how come you think my English is different and in what way.

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        1. There were some lexical similarities, but it’s just that there is a large overlap in the online literature that you’re familiar with and what upper-middle class Indian expats read. So I was curious as to how you were exposed to this information as northern Europeans generally don’t know much about India, and aren’t interested to know in so much detail compared to vice-versa. In Indian-oriented online fora, it’s possible to guess whether someone is non-subcontinental-origin after a few comments, but with you, it wasn’t as evident until you pointed out where you were from.

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          1. Am I from (non)-subcontinental-origin? (note: this is a trick question to find out if you are an amt or oit)

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    2. Autumn is also my favorite season. I live in the Great Lakes region, so we get all four seasons. It’s great, although by February I start wondering why people chose to live here and whether I should move.

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  6. Coincidentally reading this book now. Great overview of the dynamism and connectedness of the arguably first international era.

    Would like to know more about the ideas that animated the cultures described. Thank you for interviewing Cline and spreading the word!

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  7. Razib, can you request Prof. Doudna for a browncast? I realize she’ll be rather busy after her win, but it would be good to hear from her on CRISPR and how her field evolved from the ’80s and ’90s.

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  8. @Razib Khan
    What are your thoughts on Yuval Noah Harari. His writings have influenced me a lot and I am curious about what your opinion on him are

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  9. I do hope BP can somehow get the writer of blog_supplement (https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/) on the podcast.

    I was reading this article:
    https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2017/07/16/the-ramaya%e1%b9%87a-and-a-para-ramaya%e1%b9%87a-in-numbers-ii-evolving-early-indo-aryan-warfare/

    This is the para that caught my attention:

    While the RV’s primary concerns are the rituals of the ārya-s directed to their gods it incidentally preserves several features of early Aryan life. We can clearly see that cows, chariots and horses were of enormous importance: An approximate count indicates at least: 354 sentences mentioning the horse by its common name aśva; 586 sentences mentioning the cow by its common name go; 639 sentences mentioning the chariot by its common name ratha.

    On the other hand common words for a dwelling amount to 167 (gṛha; 97; dama 53; chardis: 17). Place names are very rare, while rivers, seas, pastures, mountains, trees and forests find common mention.

    Our ancestors offered a seat of grass to the gods, barhiṣ, mentioned at least 155 times, a practice we continue to follow to this date in our rituals. They had continuously lit fires into which oblations were made. These features emphatically indicate that they were a mobile people living in higher latitudes in grasslands with great rivers and gigantic water bodies that qualified as seas. We even hear of fire within the sea. Importantly, they were a war-like people. Common words indicative of conflict occur at least 572 times: the root yudh indicating battle (71); samar- indicating military encounter (28); pṛtanā, battle (97); śatru, enemy (98); different kinds of weapons specific or generic (278).

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    1. that individual wants to be anonymous. so i doubt he would want to come on (i have been told who it is; tbh i forget, he’s not someone who is famous so he’s got a right to privacy)

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    2. Manasataramgini leaves out references to another important animal in the Rgveda – the elephant. It is described in both superlative and expressive forms throughout the old books and new books – as ibha, hastin, varana, apsah, srni. The word ibha (stemming from rbhu, meaning to grasp) is the root for describing the animal and ivory throughout the IE speaking world. In the other Vedas, more words are used – danti, gaja etc.

      The best imagery and illustrations of captive elephants in the Bronze Age comes from the IVC during the Mature phase starting 2600 BCE. The elephants in the seals are caparisoned and in some seals the tusks have been sawed off – implying a considerable extent of exploitation and breeding.

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        1. Talageri is extremely critical of this Manasataramgini in his blog – not just scholarship but also his motivations (alleged).

          I have devoted a section to the “Hindu Imperialist” writers who promoted the AIT out of racist brahmin caste obsessions. Earlier, the main culprits were a section of Maharashtrian brahmins (notably Lokmanya Tilak). Today, I find sometimes on the internet that it is some stray Tamil brahmins (both Iyers and Iyengars, one example being Kalavai Venkat), who are not leftists but fervent religious Hindus, who promote the idea that the Aryans were a race of people who invaded India from some ultimate homeland situated far outside India, and that they themselves are scions of the invader race. I am almost 100% sure this blogger, who is supposed to be anonymous, is a Tamil brahmin, but he proudly declares.
          These rabid writers are staunch Vedic Hindus, staunch ritualists and staunch opponents and critics of Abrahamic religions, but they are also staunch casteist brahmins and staunch proponents of the AIT/AMT.

          Interesting perspective though I would try to not go too much into individual’s motivations.
          I found the Manasataramgini interesting – especially for some rare tales from Puranas etc!

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          1. What are the objections? can one elaborate?

            @Ugra Why is it surprising that Rig Veda contains “elephant”. RV contains non-IE words, for example “Bana” for arrow. But the frequencies of these words are less and from a later period. I understood this from Manasataramgini blog post. RV does contain many non-IE words. This is not suprising given that it was written down in the Kurukshetra region. But this does not refute the fact that many of its myths and stories do originate from the steppes.

            Is there an analysis of how many times do the words for elephants appear in Rig Veda? What period do they constitute.

            @Gaurav
            btw: reading “Manasataramgini” blog post, I got the sense that he is from Maharashtra and not TN

            I am now going through “Manasataramgini” blog posts and plan to read most of them relating to Hindusim, Rig Veda and Indo-Europeans, the wealth of knowledge and the depth of analysis and the logic is amazing.

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          2. Manasataramgini’s dharma in this cycle of birth is to show that Hindutva can be on AIT’s side as well. Every age produces its Karna!!

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          3. Is Tamil Brahmin identification as Aryan Invaders a reaction to the Dravidian movement or is it vice versa and the Dravidian movement is a reaction ?

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  10. as long as one does not tell to members of family they will burn in hell forever . I guess, its ok. maybe that is the best one can hope for.

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    1. I read the killer was Chechen. Not surprised. Even the Russians are appeasing them, by essentially buying off Kadyrov and letting him run an Islamic carveout in ways he deems fit. Some of the most violent, nastiest people around.

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        1. Damn somehow I never heard of this before.

          Some moderate mullah should make an argument that getting so worked up about iconography and insults is considered “shirk”, and try to reform the religion that way.

          This hair trigger violent interpretation of Islam is a plague upon humanity (including Muslims themselves).

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        2. @Sumit and others:
          Apologies, the comment I had made above is factually wrong. The list of Blasphemy accused people killed in India is not very long. I was careless in comprehending the question asked and made a mistake.

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      1. The earliest known case is that of Swami Shradhananda in 1920s. Mr G thought it was somehow justified.

        Ambedkar was aghast at this position. He mentions this in his book on Partition.

        There have been more cases as well

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    1. Yes, but the women aren’t innocent either. They knew full well what they were up to. They wanted to get a ticket to a better life – perfectly understandable! – and the shortest way to do that was to snag a Westerner.

      I know a Filipina who was more adept at choosing a suitable man than those ladies. She found one from my country, moved here in the 70s and is since thrice-divorced. She now has two homes and one hotel back in the Philippines. She isn’t very bright but she has amazing business instincts – and human/social ones, too.

      She’s very frank about the fact that she chose her 1st husband mostly on materialist grounds, and she defends it by saying that so do most domestic Filipina women when they are looking for men in the domestic market. So what’s the difference? Good for her, I say. Those women basically tried the same tactic as her and failed. Given the Philippines strong Catholic culture, with its tabboo on abortion, they felt socially pressured to give birth. Should the men be faulted for that? Contraception is the responsibility of both. Now the children will suffer. And no, the men are not without fault either. Just saying it isn’t black/white.

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  11. @NM

    The Harappans were trading Indian ivory all over the place. Ivory has a very distinct grain structure (Schreger angles) based on point of origin (India vs Africa) and is used like a fingerprint. Ancient ivory from India has been found all over Eurasia – Afghanistan, Iran, Mesopotamia/Sumer, Greece, the Balkans and Rome from Chalcolithic to Late Bronze sites. The oldest and furthest Indian ivory ever found is from 3000 BC in the Iberian peninsula.

    The word for elephant in all these regions have followed the Indian “ibha” – bwa (Egyptian), erepa (Greek), ebur (Latin), lahpa (Hittite) and all these words have been historically attested. The trade and ivory artifacts predate the supposed Aryan arrival in India (1500 BC).

    Like you said, this must be a definite non-IE loanword to the Aryan lexicon. But the evidence suggests that the word ibha carried both linguistic and religious significance to the Aryans. First of all, ibha’s root “rbh” means “to grasp” in PIE, a definite nod to the elephant’s trunk. The modern word “Hathi” is a derivative of “Hastin”. Meaning hand, again a functional expression of grasping as in the original root – rbh.

    The second more important and organic link is the word “labh” which is also a derivative from the root “rbh”. The meaning of labh is profit in the modern context. but its exact meaning is “to catch or seize”, similar to ibha. In the Rgveda, the consort of Vishnu is Sri (modern name Lakshmi). She is always worshipped as the Giver of Riches and Wealth. Modern Diwali is the quintessential Hindu worship of Lakshmi. If you look at any historical or modern illustration of Lakshmi, there ARE always one or two elephants in the background. Now we have a complete circle from rbha to ibha to labha (grasp -> elephant -> profit) implying a common source for all these words from the ivory trade.

    Such a complete set of linkages is exceptional for a loanword. The odds are astronomical that the Harappans were using a word for the elephant in their language (what?) which makes complete phonetic, liturgical and functional sense in another language family that was 1000 years in the future (supposed arrival in India).

    All credit for this research goes to Talageri and Schuhmacher.

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    1. @ugra

      I still need to completely read up Talageri’s blog post on the elephant (https://talageri.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-elephant-and-proto-indo-european.html)

      The crux of the matter as I understand is whether the word “ibha” meaning ivory was introduced to other IE languages by trade or by migration of vedic people (OIT)

      If we consider that trade flourished when IVC was flourishing, then it must be before 3000 years ago. (https://www.sciencealert.com/maths-shows-how-an-ancient-civilisation-was-toppled-by-climate-change) This sounds plausible to me

      Talageri’s blog post on this comprehensive. @Ugra do you have TLDR version of why Talageri says it must be due to OIT and not trade by IVC?

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      1. @NM

        Talageri’s theory is OIT – all the branches of the IE saw extant elephants in the Indian homeland, constructed the word for it and carried it to their final destinations.

        I think that Harappans were IE speakers and the word for it was spread via trade to the Egyptians and Sumerians (non-IE). The finding of Indian ivory in Iberia (3000 BC) is important – the trade was valuable enough for intermediaries to ship it further, carrying the word to other European branches of the IE family.

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      1. eNeM, perhaps you will be interested that RB is a part of SRB (=Serb or SRBIJA=Serbia) which is the name how Serbs call themselves. Can I delegate to you to follow up and find out what were Serbian connections with elephants?

        So far, I knew that it was organised the first ‘triumph’ (this is a Serbian word) in history when the first Aryan leader returned from SA to Europe on elephants and which was conducted every third year after that.

        BTW, I am still waiting that someone explains RG.
        This linguistic discussion is becoming very interesting.

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        1. @Milan Todorovic
          I did answer your question. I don’t think you know how PIE has been constructed. Otherwise, you won’t be asserting that the word Veda has got anything to do with deciding PIE.

          Sanskrit Veda meaning can be both “find” or “know”.

          Now, Veda comes from the PIE root word *weid. It has potential three meanings “to see, find; to know”. According to Mallory’s definition of PIE, the meaning should be “to know”; less likely, but possible, is “find”. “to see” is linguistically impossible (according to Mallory’s PIE definition); it is only found in the later attested IE languages.

          If this answer is not sufficient, I will start from the basics: Do you know how PIE has been constructed?

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      2. @NM
        Sorry, I could not reply. I will be progressively very busy in the future. My free time is getting over :(. Let me also answer the genetics question you asked in the previous thread. I know and have looked at the Y-DNA haplogroup of every single skeleton sample — related to IE languages — found until now.

        1. For comprehensive view on elephants, read Talageri’s blogpost “The Elephant and the Proto-Indo-European Homeland”.

        How elephant is related to PIE?
        According to Talageri:
        “”
        The word íbha- in the Rigveda is found right from the oldest book 6 to the latest book 10. It is the oldest Vedic/Sanskrit word for “elephant”, and, like many other older and PIE Vedic words (nakta and kṣap for “night”, uda- and āpa- for “water”, etc) which fell out of use in comparison with newer words in later Indo-Aryan (even in Classical Sanskrit), it also fell out of popular or common use in comparison with newer words after the period of the Vedic Saṁhitā-s: in fact, it is found even in the other three Vedic Saṁhitā-s only in repetitions of Rigvedic verses.
        “”

        Also, there are other proofs: (read here https://talageri.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-full-out-of-india-case-in-short.html)

        2. Genetics: What is Ganj Dareh?
        Ganj Dareh is the location from which Iran Neolithic samples were obtained. They are the source of Iran_N ancestry used by Narasimhan et al.

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        1. To add on elephants:
          Talageri from full OIT case
          “”
          But most important of all is the name of the elephant:
          1. The word is found distributed over the entire spectrum of Indo-European languages: it is found (a) in both Asia and Europe, (b) in both the south-easternmost branch (Indo-Aryan) as well as the north-westernmost one (Germanic), (c) in all the oldest recorded Indo-European languages: in “the earliest attested Indo-European languages, i.e. Hittite, Mycenaean Greek and Indo-Aryan” (MALLORY-ADAMS 2006:99), as well as in the oldest attested European branch languages in every part of Europe: the south (Latin), north (Gothic), and east (Old Church Slavic).
          As per Mallory and Adams, the criterion for determining a word to be definitely Proto-Indo-European is “if there are cognates between Anatolian and any [one] other Indo-European language”, to which they add: “This rule will not please everyone, but it will be applied here” (MALLORY-ADAMS 2006:109-110): here there are cognates for the elephant in Anatolian (Hittite) and five other branches!
          2. Unlike the other animals named above, the elephant is found in only one of the historical Indo-European habitats: that of Indo-Aryan. There are two distinct species of elephants: the Indian elephant (elaphas maximus), found in India and in areas to its east (i.e. southeast Asia), and the African elephant (loxodonta africana), found in sub-Saharan Africa, in both cases far from the historical habitats of all the other branches of IE languages other than Indo-Aryan.

          “”

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  12. recent survey of indian american voters reports 40% arrived 2010 or later. that’s crazy! the vast majority 2000 or later.

    the ppl who grew up in this country 1980 to 2000 are WAY outnumbered

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    1. whats crazy is I had a geeat uncle come in the 1950s on a student visa and he went to school in the South for his grad engineering education. He said things were pretty safe on campus. But he’s a super thick skinned person in general.

      I have another who is a vascular surgeon and came in 70s. Even then in nyc, there were white patients who refused to see him for his race.

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    2. Yes, and these are mostly IT professionals and thereafter their families. Primarily driven by the Y2K frenzy which started to build up in the mid-late ’90’s.

      Another source was the liberalization of the Indian economy and the ability to repatriate funds abroad. This enabled a lot of (newly) affluent and aspirational Indian families to send their children to the US for undergraduate studies. Something that was inconceivable for all but the elite in India up until then.

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  13. RE: Beheading an jihadists

    First beheadings happened in Bosnia in early 90ies. Foreign and local jihadists started a war against Christians, beheaded in front of camera a dozen of Serbian heads and played soccer with them. They repeated all this later in Syria. Western public and media knew about this, but they ignored all evidence. The secret directive was – everything is allowed against Serbs. Moreover, they organised never seen before in history Satanisation propaganda against Serbs and presented the situation very opposite – Serbian monsters terrorize peaceful, innocent muslims. Western secret services together with local muslims organised several bombings of local crowded markets in Sarajevo and accused Serbs of this. Immediately, they started bombing campaigns to punish Serbs for terrorist actions executed by themselves. They repeated the same scenario a bit later in Kosovo. All this is known now but who cares anymore?

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  14. Usually in private conversations, not in public, I say that Serbs in spite of many outstanding individuals and geniuses in their several thousands of years old history and culture very often made wrong collective actions which I would assign to dumb nations. However, there is one collective talent (visible even here at BP) which everyone recognises to them. That is – ability to unite all, sometimes very disparate opponents, who are often mutual enemies, against themselves. So, there is a united front of jihadists, globalists, imperialists, artificial nations, leftist liberals, neocons, western secret services, Hollywood, Vatican, history forgers, controlled media, censors, various converts during their long history (Croat ustashas, Bosnian muslims, Bulgarians, Albanians), 77virgin-sehids, oit, 40ies (4T-taquiyamen & triple talaq) and a range of other various ϕυλτωmorons.

    How they accomplish this complex task of building a united coalition against themselves? It requires a longer elaboration but, in a nutshell, – because they say what others don’t like to hear. Or, as Julian Assange said – the future always first comes to Serbia.

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    1. Good writing, I may comment more extensively if I get some time. Only, the identity of Alexander’s duke Seleukic is wrong – he was not a Greek, he was a Macedonian Serb (so as Tolomej Lagic in Egypt).

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    2. @Razib

      I learned a few things from that insightful piece. Nice castigation of the House of Saud. If there’s one group of people I despise the most in this world, its the Saudis, along with all Qahtani and Adnani Arabs. May they burn in hellfire for eternity.

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  15. I read this interesting study about Hong Kong racial perceptions towards South Asians, Filipinos, Whites, Japanese and African minorities. I wasn’t really surprised that all non-East Asians are not as treated as well as they are in the Western world but there were some surprises like: Filipinos being perceived similar to Indians, Pakistanis having generally the worst perception amongst all minorities and Africans not being excessively penalised as compared to all minorities. http://www.unison.org.hk/DocumentDownload/Researches/R201203%20Racial%20Acceptance%20Survey%20Report.pdf?subject=Enquiry%20for%20Research%20hard%20copy

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    1. dont worry. The internet will still be flooded with links of White western bloggers paid to visit Pakistan and comment on how it is better than India. The ISI is rivals any propaganda machine every created. What happens when they indirectly control huge swathes of the GDP via corrupt feudalism and military junta islamist state
      e

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    2. Well, there are two bands here, people from rich countries and co-ethnics are desirable, while those from poorer communities are undesirable. I would say that this is a consistent pattern across the world. You should see the gymnastics Indian parents in the US pull to make sure their kids go to schools with predominantly white and Asian populations. The segregation is quite stark, whites, Indians and Chinese are in one set of schools, Blacks and Hispanics in another.

      I would like to see some work on how segregated India’s rural schools are with regards to caste. I hope they are doing better but I am not very confident.

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  16. https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/india-is-hindu-hindus-are-india-why-indian-americans-think-the-way-they-do/525792/?amp

    ‘India is Hindu, Hindus are India — Why Indian Americans think the way they do’

    Rants:
    1) US of A is important, just not that important. Media write-ups abroad unnecessarily inflate the influence or importance of USA. This veneration by outsiders is stupider than the self anointed ‘greatest ….’ nonsense some random fatso senator from Texas/Oklahoma/Louisiana might have. Just Fuck you guys! stay in your lane. Look at your own history before bitching about casteism and smugly passing pithy one liners about why is India this, why is India that. You are rich because you stole a shitload of land and murdered a bunch of native people. India should behave itself for her own sake, cow-lynchings, pogroms or gang-rapes are shameful blots on our own face. But we don’t give a fuck about what Americans think.
    2) I don’t like evangelicals. I don’t like any overtly religious people and very much prefer a passive-cultural-Hindu/Muslim/Christian. But these assholes have an itch in their ass that cannot be scratched without trying to convert. The itch is of domination and validation. ‘We are not happy that we have cracked some divine code, we want you to believe us too. We will knowingly ignore and underplay our BS but bring out the primitive barbarity of your religion. Even our charity is not free, we will give more to our co-relogionists.’ I mean these Gora guys are such primitive, insensitive and tribal people in their religious conduct, not a shred of universalism or understanding. Pure egomania. Good! Now Hare-Krishna are going to flip it, infact every time we see a evangelical in India we should donate vigorously to Hare Krishna. I never felt pissed about converting Hindus. What makes me mad is converting tribals (by anyone including Hindus). That is so unequal and unfair. Their traditions and lives are a window on what Humans could have been or could be. But No! How can they be colorfully different, we will paint them in the greys of organized religion.

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    1. Even our charity is not free, we will give more to our co-relogionists.

      US or UK charities by law cannot give only to Evangelicals. Considered discrimination.

      What makes me mad is converting tribals (by anyone including Hindus). That is so unequal and unfair. Their traditions and lives are a window on what Humans could have been or could be.

      So says a guy who is westernized and living it up in the US.

      Its the US (mainly) Christians building of hospitals and schools, that pushed the Buddhists in Sri Lanka to build schools as well. Even Buddhists building schools was spearheaded by the Theosophist Society.

      That said the Buddhist Temples with vast wealth dont engage in charity. So many of the marginalized Estate Tamils are converting to Evangelical. All the Buddhist’s had to do was to do a little charity and treat them like fellow humans. Ever been into a Evangelical church, everyone calls each other brother or sister. Everyone hugs each other, same cups and plates. Not a big deal (NOW) in SL, but I think many Sinhalese will draw the line at hugging Estate Tamils.

      Pretty obvious worse in India, with so called liberal Hindus not allowing the help to eat using the cutlery reserved for the family.

      On another note, you give electricity and TV, tribals or whatever will desire modern stuff. So anyone offering to help and treat them as equals will make headway.

      People with who kind of made it like to see tribals, slum dwellers remain in their station. Then can do “cultural tourism” or “slum tourism” and feel better about themselves.

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      1. Is my English that bad that you can’t understand what I said? Anyways here goes:

        “So says a guy who is westernized and living it up in the US.”
        What? Tell me what would you have me do to de-westernize or how not to ‘live it up’? I live in their country and I try my best to make them feel comfortable with me being here as a non-immigrant student. And ‘living it up’ yeah on a grad stipend sure!

        “Ever been into a Evangelical church, everyone calls each other brother or sister. Everyone hugs each other, same cups and plates.”

        Yes, been around them in my early years growing up.

        Random Story: Sat through a Sunday service in Nagaland, the entire 1.5 hour talk by the chaplain(‘father’) was on how people in Indian Punjab have to be brought into Christianity, how they have already moved away from Idol worship(i.e. become Sikh) but have to be made to see the light of Jesus.

        Give us time, they had 500 years of colonization/slavery/loot to cushion their evolution into embracing equality of man. Buddha spoke of much higher ideals 2400 years ago, very soon when our stomachs will be full we will outdo them in universalism and brotherhood.

        “Pretty obvious worse in India, with so called liberal Hindus not allowing the help to eat using the cutlery reserved for the family.”
        So what is your solution? Worship a (middle eastern) God? Completely prostrate? Is the already low self-esteem of Indians not low enough for you that you want to make them truly rudderless? Should we also get on our knees and shuffle in-front of the Americans and Chinese ?
        Here:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians

        “On another note, you give electricity and TV, tribals or whatever will desire modern stuff. So anyone offering to help and treat them as equals will make headway.”
        They are richer than us! we make $2,000 a year they make $60,000. We lost all our major battles they conquered half the world and exterminated thousands of tribes. In due time we will fix our resource problem on our own. They have good-talented-educated-resourceful men to spare, most of our people don’t even have money to buy reserved train tickets, forget proselytizing.

        “People with who kind of made it like to see tribals, slum dwellers remain in their station. Then can do “cultural tourism” or “slum tourism” and feel better about themselves.”
        Are you implying I am like that? Are you high? And even when I do make it I will (and already am) help(ing) my people out.

        8+
        1. I live in their country (US) and I try my best to make them feel comfortable with me being here
          The point I was trying to make was you are willing to adapt, embrace Western culture and dress to “get ahead”.
          So why do you have problem with tribals doing the same.

          was on how people in Indian Punjab have to be brought into Christianity, how they have already moved away from Idol worship(i.e. become Sikh) but have to be made to see the light of Jesus.
          So whats the problem, up to tribals to decide. Hinduism or Christianity. Like I said actions, hugs and kisses to demonstrate equality are more powerful than words.

          called liberal Hindus not allowing the help to eat using the cutlery reserved for the family.”
          So what is your solution? Worship a (middle eastern) God? Completely prostrate? Is the already low self-esteem of Indians

          Like I said in the previous paragraph, actions like hugs and kissed are more powerful than words.

          Does enforcing using separate cutlery increase “self esteem” of tribals or lower castes. Maybe a little more of equality actions may draw more into the Hindu fold.

          4+
          1. I applaud you for being able to see the positives of christiainty in charity, I applaud you further in being able to see the negatives in buddhism and hinduism along with the nasty behaviors as well. I wish to applaud you further once more by getting you to see that charity is tied to bigotry ,racism,colonialism,pedophilia and sexual exploitation by clergy of young tribals in many parts of the world as well through the same faith. And those seeds of charity is to further the bigotry to next generation and generations after that without an end. It is not surprising that republicans in america draw their support from both the racists and evangelicals. They had after all , centuries of alignment before that.Hitler was therefore not an accident of history either, neither was the persecution of the jews. Or perhaps you can just own it up and say, all of that centuries of racism, colonialism ,genocides brought together by bigotry of faith did do much good , like some already do. In which case, bigotry of other religions or by communists are not a thing you can legitimately criticize. Hugs and kisses to you.

            5+
          2. phyecon1

            A strike home and some get hot, bothered and defensive.

            First I am a atheist, been since about about 13. I have a low opinion of religious mumbo jumbo, be it Christianity, Islam, Hindu or “Buddhist Religion”. (Note not Buddhist Philosophy).

            I was not endorsing Christianity, just pointing out the Evangelicals have better marketing schemes that maybe Hindu or Buddhists could adopt.

            re Child Abuse(pedophilia and sexual exploitation by clergy of young tribal )

            Strong power structures have the weakness for abuse, including child abuse. In any society, where priests, godmen are held in high esteem, child and pedophilia will be rife.

            What has happened in the west is that a large segment of society is not religious. Plus there are laws for large payouts for victims of child abuse. This results in more victims stepping out.

            I am seeing the same process in play in Sri Lanka. More and more of the Buddhists are just Buddhist Religion in name. Getting to be critical of Buddhist Priests and ordination of samneras (buddhist priest in training, some as young as 10). So far just posts on FB and in conversation. The moment laws are passed for payouts to victims of child abuse, the flood gates will open.

            2+
      1. @Raj
        Yes, a significant minority of Rors/Jats are born with Blonde or Red hair, and an even smaller minority retain it into adulthood.

        I know of two cases in my extended family (one was blonde at birth, the other red haired, both got darker with age. One is now light brown haired, the other a dark reddish-mahogany)

        But Blonde/Red hair also occurs with appreciable frequency among Kashmiri Pandits, Kambojas, Khatris, Upper Caste Sindhis, and even some Gujjars. Look up Rohit Bal, guy has the Blonde haired/Blue-eyed look retained even in adulthood.

        I’ve seen folks with that Blonde/Blue eyed combination as adults in the Ror/Jatt community too, though most prefer to dye it black as adults in order not to stand out from the larger crowd in South Asia.

        0
        1. //I’ve seen folks with that Blonde/Blue eyed combination as adults in the Ror/Jatt community too, though most prefer to dye it black as adults in order not to stand out from the larger crowd in South Asia.//
          This should be more controversial, all these blonde and ginger rors done up in brownface like OG kardashians.

          1+
      1. @Prats

        Shobha De looks nothing like her lol. Shobha is a Latina Harniza in appearance and clearly looks admixed, while the woman I posted looks fully West Asian/fully Caucasian/Criollo.

        Shobha could only pass as a non-White Latina outside of India, but the Ror woman above passes as a MENA/West Asian woman and even a Mediterranean woman — the same group Nikki Haley belongs to.

        1+
          1. @Prats
            Try this out, and you’ll understand what I mean:

            I’m assuming you have Netflix; navigate to the show “What the Love?” By Karan Johar and instead of watching it in its original Hindi or English audio and subtitles, switch the audio/soundtrack to Spanish and turn the subtitles off.

            Then, before you start watching the episode, Google definitions and examples of individuals from Latin America by typing in ‘Indios’, ‘Indio Mestizos’, ‘Mestizos’, ‘Harnizos’, ‘Castizos’ and ‘Criollos’ into Google, one search at a time, and looking at the definitions and the images of the people that show up in the results each time.

            Now watch the Karan Johar show with its Spanish audio track, and tell me whether you now see how perfectly South Asians fit Latin American racial classifications — they all look like they would be right at home in Latin America. You can try the same thing with Sacred Games — switch the audio source to Spanish and turn off subtitles — they will suddenly start looking Latin American to you, not Indian.

            All of the folks in these two TV shows have their doppelgangers and racial counterparts in LatAm. India is like Latin America with Masala and different cultures and religions. It’s really that simple. The only difference is, India has very few Castizos and Criollos in comparison to Latin America. Most South Asians are in the Indio to Mestizo range, with the uncommon Harnizo here and there. Criollos are super rare, like 2% of the country.

            0
          2. @APThk

            I don’t watch Netflix (ethical issues) but I’ll check it out someday. In any case, those are American categories.

            In my India-centric world view, everyone south and east of Italy is somewhat brown with varying frequency of white passing individuals. Even the odd northern European looks suspiciously brown (eg – Alicia Vikander).

            Check out the comedy duo Jordindian. The guy from Jordan doesn’t seem all that Caucasoid to me.

            If India becomes a rich and powerful country, these same West Asians would have no qualms calling themselves brown. As a lot of the PoC brigade already does albeit for different reasons.

            Btw is your aunt American (or lived there)?

            She has a very “American” look, which is agnostic to race – aligned teeth, symmetrical frown lines, even tan, low facial fat.

            Don’t find this in Europeans who seem to show more diversity in how they look (apart from melanin).

            2+
          3. Dude, that’s a really long response.

            “I only care about Global perspectives.”

            All of us are parochial. Only Americans think their parochialism is universal.

            “”Brown” is — it is an utterly useless and scientifically invalid term.”

            Brown is as valid or invalid as white.

            “Also, people with origins in MENA countries are counted as “White” here in America.”

            Who cares? If Indians were as obsessed with race as Americans are, these people would be classified as Browns or Arabs in Indian government records.

            “”Indian” as a label to describe ethnicity and race is meaningless”

            Based on how you slice and dice the data, you can call Indians a race. But I don’t want to litigate this point since I don’t think it is the best way to look at the data.

            Ethnicity can be nested. You can be Basque, Spanish and European. You can be a Lingayat and a Kannadiga and Indian. Futile to bin them in just one way.

            “Skin color has little to do with race anyhow”

            Race is multi-dimensional. In some cases, skin colour might have a lot to do with it, in others not much.

            “I find that these terms are far more malign than terms like “Brahmin” and “Vaishya” and “Chamar” and “Dom” that have a monstrous, negative perception to them not grounded in science.”

            I am assuming you meant benign.

            If I had to choose between grounded in science and grounded in reality, I’d choose the latter.
            (In as far as running PCA and using your favourite classification algorithm can be considered science)

            “these are all physical markers of good health, fertility and the end result of a lifetime of living in a high SES environment, all things found in other countries.”

            More like markers of vanity. Eg- putting veneers on your teeth.

            It’s not about these particular traits but the uniformity with which they are present in Americans. I mention that Europeans show more diversity in their looks. No one would contend that they are not as healthy as Americans.

            Everyone from Sanjay Gupta to Stephen Colbert to Donald Trump to your aunt looks some variety of orange.

            Last words:
            There’s a lot of scientism when it comes to race. It’s a useful concept but boundaries are often fuzzy. Based on snapshots of population distributions, these boundaries change. No point getting too fixated on them.

            The concept might not even be very useful in other kinds of population distributions as is the case with India with its multitude of jatis.

            My hypothesis is that people brought up in low entropy populations are more sensitive to these differences.

            I don’t know why you get so worked up about this thing. I readily admit that Jats/Rors look slightly different from other groups around them but then a lot of other groups do as well. I can pick out a TamBram from a room in Bangalore. In some cases even a Gujarati in Mumbai. There’s nothing exceptional about looking different in India.

            I only have a passing interest in physiognomy. Don’t wish to argue further. You can draw whatever conclusions you wish to draw from this. Neither of us is changing the other’s mind.

            6+
          4. @Saurav
            “What’s the ethical issues on watching netflix?”

            I am trying to cut down on frivolous consumption. I think Netflix encourages the worst kind of frivolity (wastage of time).

            Ironic considering the amount of time I spent composing responses here over the last couple of days.

            1+
          1. https://www.researchstash.com/2018/12/24/haryanas-rors-western-flavor-indus-valley/

            https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929718303987?dgcid=author

            The Ror are small community found in Haryana. Potentially they have the highest admixture of steppe DNA in India.

            There is an interview with Anurag Kadian who did research about Rors (above paper), but its in Hindi. Essentially he mentions that Rors DNA must be quite close to the Kshatriya’s of Mahabharata period. There were empires stretching from India to modern day Pakistan.

            2+
          2. What is the traditional occupation of the Ror castes ?

            If they are farmers esp. pastoralists why couldn’t they be Vaishyas in so far as the Kuru era caste system goes rather than Kshatriyas.

            1+
          3. Thanks, eNeM. I will read the links. It seems, Rors are a mix of local people and ancient ‘Slavics’. This explains APThk’s phenotypes.
            Pls, keep me posted regarding the progress of RB exploration.

            0
    1. I used to follow him on Twitter and get his newsletter. Stopped as he kept recycling content and warning every 3 days that Twitter would soon be banning him for thought-crime.

      0
  17. https://www.yahoo.com/news/german-court-rules-muslim-refused-160202583.html

    “A German court has ruled that a Muslim doctor should not be granted citizenship after he refused to shake hands with the woman presenting him with his naturalisation certificate.

    According to the administrative court of Baden-Württemberg, the Lebanese man had forgone his right to become German because his refusal to shake the bureaucrat’s hand was evidence that he saw her as “posing the threat of sexual seduction.”

    LMFAO

    5+
  18. hindustantimes.com/india-news/pak-plan-to-neutralise-telecom-blackout-in-kashmir-includes-new-mobile-towers/story-bNXWhSYyFiPr0lVlym7soL_amp.html

    rabid they are

    1+
  19. Bhim would be interested…There was a significant turnaround in the war for Karabakh. Only, not on the ground but in the air. During Oct 19, the air defence forces of Karabakh destroyed “5 enemy drones”. The Ministry of Defence of Karabakh published a video with what was left after the shooting down of the tactical combat drone Bayraktar TB2 of Turkish production. Such drones are worth more than $ 5 million.

    Military experts explain that the video shows the Canadian optoelectronic system Wescam CMH15D, which is being installed in “Bajraktar”, plus – the engine of the Israeli reconnaissance and strike drone IAI Harop. This may affect the further course of the war and its final outcome, because “Bajraktar” have been an important Azerbaijani trump card in recent days because they destroyed a large part of Karabakh’s war equipment with their high-precision missiles.

    There were assumptions that the Armenians received “a new and deadly weapon which was delivered by an unknown country”.

    0
    1. @Milan Todorovic

      Sadly, Armenia is still loosing. I think Russia is colluding with Azeris, by any measure Russians are unreliable allies if Armenia was an American ally all hell would have broken loose by now.

      https://jamestown.org/program/armenia-is-losing-in-karabakh-and-russia-stays-on-the-sidelines/

      btw I looked up the Selçuk Bayraktar guy, Erdogan’s son-in-law, MIT Electrical PhD dropout and basically Turkish Tony Stark who makes these big drones.

      @Ugra Why is Turkey doing so well in tech? they have Rokestan, TAI, Bayraktar, MILGEM, Otokar…

      @Milan
      Why is Indian-Serbian trade so measly?

      1+
  20. @Razib @Dathang

    I came across this blog post by “manasataramgini” https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2005/04/14/non-africans-and-their-migrations/

    about steps of migrations into India.

    Some points that caught my interest were:

    One major descendent of M9 was the M20 lineage that moved south and brought about the first major colonization of India around 30,000 years ago. It is one of the dominant Indian Y- types accounting for about 50% or more of the South Indian Y-chromosomes. This population appears to have displaced the coastal migrant males on the large scale while acquiring their females enmasse. The connections of this group with the Dravidians is worth exploration.

    Could this also explain also the difference in genetics of people as it ranges from West coast in India to the east/east coast?
    Reference prevalence of M20 gene in modern populations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20#/media/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_L_Y-DNA.svg

    Another point the author mentions is:

    11) Another branch of M173 that moved southeastwards was the M17 after arising in the steppes about 10,000 years BP. It is spread in central Asia and Europe and is very prevalent in India. It appears to be the marker of the Aryan invaders of India. Its prevalence in India suggests a massive Aryan invasion and not a trickle as proposed by some naive but widely accepted mainstream indologists like Witzel. The coalesence time of the M17 lineage suggests that Aryan invasion occured somewhere between 4000-2000 BC. This date is earlier than the mainstream dates and may have implications for the nature of the Indus civilization.

    So interestingly he is pointing out that Aryans arrived in India in masses and not a trickle.

    Could you please provide your thoughts on this?

    1+
    1. Good finding eNeM. Let read the first couple sentences…

      “One of the most idiotic ideas that has entered the minds of many contemporary Indians is that the Aryans never entered India from outside and are probably autochthonous. However, the wealth of evidence from recent genetic studies points to exactly the opposite. The newly launched National Geographic project is likely to lay to rest this myth of the “Out of India” theory and restore the Aryan Invasion theory….”

      0
      1. @Milan “manasataramgini” is AIT proponent, I dont know enough about AIT nor OIT to agree and disagree with the theories. Currently I am exploring both.

        I am interested in the L-M20 phenotype which seems to be prevalent among Tajiks, Northern Afghanis and South Indians on the West cost. Which “manasataramgini” touches upon on this topic.

        Also the timing of Aryan immigration seems to now coincide with the peek of IVC if we consider the mathematical model and the genetic theory referenced by “manasataramgini”.

        Would be great to get views on this topic by knowledgable folks here

        1+
    1. LOL. The whole article does not even name one medieval Muslim Krishna Bhakt. Its purely drivel and a better article could have been generated by GPT-3.
      Some time ago Gaurav Lele had written an article claiming that the CBSE school textbooks were not as biased as commonly believed. Maybe so, but its in the university level works that these bigots (Romila Thapar, DN Jha, Irfan Habib) who call themselves leftists really bare their fangs.
      I do not have time right now to write a full article detailing their blatant lies. However will just mention their duplicitous role in falsifying history in order to support the Muslims’ case in the Ram – janmbhumi case was legendary. How can these people who have spent their whole life in a field have so little regard for it.

      4+
      1. The first piece covered only till 12th century. The CBSE books arent biased against Early Muslim conquerers. (Ghazni – Ghori).
        I haven’t written the follow up piece – will do at some pt. But on reading i found them neutralish towards Delhi Sultans too. But every now and then they have thrown in BS- like Khilji’s reforms (LOL he screwed up the peasants as much as Brits). or they also ignore Delhi Sultante temple destruction. (which was highlighted for Mahmud)
        Mughals seem to be given different treatment though though – apart from Auzi everyone is shown in positive to moderate light.

        2+
        1. Its not just that leftist Indian historians like Thapar, Habib, DN Jha are biased.

          Its more that they are so banal.
          What original research have these people ever done? What interesting insights into Indian history have ever come from them?

          Time and again their methodology has been to try and force fit a leftist narrative which they may find useful in fighting modern ideological battles into historical events.

          Take for instance the article by Thapar linked above. Its conclusion is “Rajput-Mughal joint patronage helped make Vrindavan the focus of Krishna bhakti”. However the article itself is just a garbled, stream of consciousness style mishmash of random stuff Thapar has been saying in interviews all her life. (“Brahmins bad.” “Syncretism good.” “Mughals great” etc). Nowhere does the article even try and support its hypothesis with real historical events. Which Mughal patronized Vrindavan, what year, which historical documents were referred to? It mentions nothing. Its just bad historical writing.

          And this is Thapar, the supposed doyen of history in India. Frankly I believe she owes her position to being born in an elite family and repeating fashionable bullshit (“Dissent” anyone?) all her life than doing any great research in her field based on primary sources.

          Years ago I tried reading Thapar’s “Ashoka and the Decline of the Mauryas”. I was disappointed. The book barely had anything more than what I already knew from history text-books in school. No new facts, no insights, nothing.

          Atleast the western Indologists like Witzel et al. who also come with an agenda do primary research and uncover new facts, come up with new ways of thinking about history. Reading their works is illuminating even if you may not agree with their narratives. Even idiotic Wendy Doniger much given to modern intersectional feminist takes on Hinduism, is way more interesting than Thapar.

          One thing Thapar is fond of mentioning in interviews is how during British times, many ostensibly Muslim peasants of India would in surveys reveal that they followed many Hindu practices including celebrating Holi, Diwali etc. She intends this example to show how the common people are very syncretic and if only the evil Brahmins, Mullahs, imperialists, capitalists would leave them alone it would be so great. Its absurd that she does not realize that increased literacy would lead to hardening of religious boundaries by itself (especially wrt to a religion like Islam) and that common people are not sheep with no agency.

          If any of these historians had been really interested in Indian history, they would have scrambled to master Sanskrit and pore through the copious manuscripts we have (Not much scope for field archaeology for ancient Indian history). Online blogs like Manastaramgini have shown that so much historical insight can be gleaned from these sources.
          eg. Kurus like Dhritarashtra, Parikshit and Janamejaya find reference in the Vedic Samhitas, brahmanas and shrauta sutras which leads to independent corroboration of the historicity of these individuals. Very surprisingly there is no reference to the Pandavas anywhere except in the Mahabharata.

          http://michaelwitzel.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ejvs0104article.pdf
          https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2006/05/04/the-mystery-of-the-pandava-s/
          https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2013/12/26/the-successors-of-the-kaunteya-s-in-the-national-memory-of-bharata-s-and-bhota-s-and-related-discursions/

          3+
    2. Not to worry, all these theatrics will fall flat like Piddi or Shashi Tharoor “Hindu” volte face. Perhaps it can fool trads for a while. But Hindus increasingly know who now acts, and who really is.

      Though i see it as a victory of Hindutva that even Commies have to now use Hindu terminology to reach out. Just by taunts and tone of the article, clearly shows the uncomfortable-ness of it.

      4+
  21. Not sure if my previous comment went through or if it was well formatted. If its not please post this comment instead:

    This blog post on “manasataramgini” blog is quite interesting: https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2005/04/14/non-africans-and-their-migrations/

    A couple of points of interest are:


    6) One major descendent of M9 was the M20 lineage that moved south and brought about the first major colonization of India around 30,000 years ago. It is one of the dominant Indian Y- types accounting for about 50% or more of the South Indian Y-chromosomes. This population appears to have displaced the coastal migrant males on the large scale while acquiring their females enmasse. The connections of this group with the Dravidians is worth exploration.

    Could this explain the difference in genetics of people from West coast to East coast in India?
    Reference M20 prevalence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20#/media/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_L_Y-DNA.svg

    Second point:

    11) Another branch of M173 that moved southeastwards was the M17 after arising in the steppes about 10,000 years BP. It is spread in central Asia and Europe and is very prevalent in India. It appears to be the marker of the Aryan invaders of India. Its prevalence in India suggests a massive Aryan invasion and not a trickle as proposed by some naive but widely accepted mainstream indologists like Witzel. The coalesence time of the M17 lineage suggests that Aryan invasion occured somewhere between 4000-2000 BC. This date is earlier than the mainstream dates and may have implications for the nature of the Indus civilization.

    Interestingly the author points out that Aryans arrived in India in masses and not a trickle. He also states that it could have occurred between 4000-2000 BC, which will be 6,000 BP – 4,000 BP which clearly overlaps the mature and late phase of IVC? https://www.sciencealert.com/images/2020-09/indus-riv-2.jpg

    @razib @Dathang Could you please provide your thoughts on this?

    0
  22. sbarrkum
    Being atheist means nothing here. It does not even mean being intelligent, it does not mean even being unbiased either. Its relevance is far less here. I said very simply, do you see the connection between the theology and bigotry. It seems you do not, not even now. The person being defensive about a religion is you,remember, it is you who replied first and later with with your explanations. I did not even bother to defend anything here with you. I began by agreeing on the nasty aspects present in Hinduism/buddhism.This was simply to test whether you can see the pattern or not. As to it being personal, ofcourse it is, and i already said it so. If a family member becomes a bigot, it does have consequences, and as their numbers increase, that has consequences to society as well. Again, a pattern you seem to uniquely chose to not see in case of Christianity. Or you can simply admit that you think it is better, many do, if so just say so.

    5+
    1. phyecon1
      Being atheist means nothing here. It does not even mean being intelligent, it does not mean even being unbiased either.

      I am totally biased against any mumbo jumbo religions like Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc.
      As they say, He who does not believe in God is a fool, so for sure I not the smartest. By the same measure I am sure you are extremely intelligent because you believe in Gods

      If a family member becomes a bigot, it does have consequences, and as their numbers increase, that has consequences to society as well.

      Being very paternalistic noh. You decide what Tribals should do that is best for “your society”.

      If you had said Tribals who become Christians are Extremists who are prone to violence, arms and separatism I would be sympathetic to your arguments to prevent freedom to chose ones religion.

      The person being defensive about a religion is you,remember

      You really have problem of comprehension. When was I being defensive of any religion. Quote me please.

      4+
      1. The person who has comprehension problems is for people to see. Nothing more to say. Once again on a pointed question, you chose to be evasive with some general statement. I will not be evasive on any pointed question. All Indian citizens are free to chose. People from other countries are not free to enter here under false pretenses and every country can choose much like france is now doing so . As to evidence. Nagaland, north east India.

        4+
  23. phyecon1

    Once again on a pointed question, you chose to be evasive with some general statement.

    I have no idea what was your pointed question and hence my purportedly evasive answer.

    A little tip, quote your question and my evasive answer.

    Heck, I am not even PC, why would I be defensive or evasive.

    All Indian citizens are free to chose. People from other countries are not free to enter here under false pretenses
    Maybe you dont see the inherent contradictions in the above.

    Another point, in Sri Lanka proselytizing Evangelicals are locals. Dont see any White people running around. Some of the Sri Lankan evangelicals have mega churches (for Sri Lanka) and big money from locals. No different from the “Godmen” of India.

    I have the feeling, you really dont know whats happening in Tribal lands. Are there really “White” people running around.

    As to evidence. Nagaland, north east India.
    I dont know much of Nagaland.
    What I know is they have light skinned, very pretty Chinky looking women. Apparently, when they go Delhi etc, they are considered prostitutes by Indians in those parts.
    Was that the evidence you were referring to in Nagaland.

    I will not be evasive on any pointed question.

    So here is a pointed question.
    So what are the advantages or disadvantages that Tribals have becoming Hindu/Buddhist/Christian. Discuss

    2+
    1. This is the question I asked,
      “I said very simply, do you see the connection between the theology and bigotry.”
      “I applaud you for being able to see the positives of christiainty in charity, I applaud you further in being able to see the negatives in buddhism and hinduism along with the nasty behaviors as well. I wish to applaud you further once more by getting you to see that charity is tied to bigotry.”
      Answer you gave is that you are an atheist. you dont support any religion etc. I am however happy, that you are capable that you can see racism directed towards northeastersn in mainland India. so it seems, you can see only certain kinds of bigotry and biases. To that degree, you can see some wrongs atleast.
      This is an example of why “I am an atheist” largely does not mean much in today’s world.Javed akhtar is an example, who calls himself atheist, is being awarded by richard dawkins, but cant get himself to criticize verses of quran when challenged by anandranganathan.

      Nothing more to say.

      3+
      1. phyecon1

        I guess I missed it as question, probably because you write in one long paragraph.

        This is the question I asked,
        “I said very simply, do you see the connection between the theology and bigotry.”

        No question, eg Christains seeing non christians as heathens and pagans. Hindu Varna Dharma, In Islam kill the kafirs

        however happy, that you are capable that you can see racism directed towards northeastersn in mainland India.

        You gave me impression no racism in India.

        1+
    1. Thanks Vijay
      Dutch museums to return artefacts stolen by colonists to countries such as Sri Lanka and Indonesia.
      Wonder what we will be getting back.

      26 villages bordering Anaimangalam were donated for a Buddhist shrine (vihara), known as Chulamanivarmavihara, built by the Malay king of Sriwijaya in Nagapattinam (985-1012)

      So I guess a peaceful donation.

      In contrast Chandrabhanu Sridhamaraja was the King of Tambralinga Kingdom sent an expedition (1247) to the island ostensibly to acquire the Buddhist relic from the island.[2]:184–185 His forces, using poison darts, were able to occupy the Jaffna kingdom, the northern part of the island in 1255. Repeated attempts to conquer the rest of the island ensued.

      I have 1% E/SE Asian in my DNA. I wonder was it from them

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrabhanu

      1+
        1. Did Sri Lankan (Indians) ever manage to send an army out? or were they lame like the(non Maratha/Sikh) rest of Indians?

          Parakrambahu I (1123–1186)
          undertook military campaigns in South India and Burma. The adage “not even a little water that comes from the rain must flow into the ocean without being made useful to man” is one of his most famous utterances.
          His ultimate weakness was the lack of restraint in his spending, taking Sri Lanka to greater heights that it had reached in a long time, but exhausting the island’s resources in the process.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parakramabahu_I

          A few other Kings too sent armies to South India, to help the Pandyans.

          Sri Lankan kings did not engage in wars of invasion to other countries. Any foreign wars was to help allies (Pandyans).

          Why would Lankans bother to invade other countries. It not like SL population was starving, plenty of water. (note: its starving barbarians who invade other countries).

          Anyway, the lame Sri Lankans chased out the IPKF. Left SL with their tail between their legs. A year later, the LTTE trained by India, assassinated Rajiv Gandhi. Just like the Sikihs assassinating Indira Gandhi.

          Bhimrao, in shinhalese we have saying “dont look up and spit”

          1+
          1. “A few other Kings too sent armies to South India, to help the Pandyans.”

            Who would those Southern Kings be fighting with , if they were allies with Tamils?

            0
          2. I did not know about Parakramabahu(PB). Seems like an accomplished general. Stupid question: how big were the armies(both Chola/PB) that invaded SE Asia? How big were the fleets? How big the ships? Were there any attempts made to the coast of Africa? I do know that Socotra had Indian people in medieval times, but were any invasions made or was Arabian Sea left entirely to
            the Arabs? What was going on with Maldives? Were monks sent out even when Islam took over SE Asia?

            Another curiosity, are any of claims of Advaita Vedantins about Shankaracharya true? Buddhist criticism of him sounds non convincing but was there any large center of Buddhism left in mainland by the time he(supposedly) reconverted people to Hinduism? Shankaracharya was Mallu, Sri Lanka was next door, if he was what he is made out to be why did Sri Lanka remain Buddhist? What does Mahavansa say (non propaganda bits)?

            ‘Anyway, the lame Sri Lankans chased out the IPKF. Left SL with their tail between their legs.’
            Yeah yeah! I am clearly not as adept at playing 26 dimensional chess. But may you win. Celebrating killing an allied PM and his forces to now having a super duper plan that involves inviting foreign nuclear submarines to port, but then who knows perhaps people do know what they are doing. Only time will tell.

            ‘A year later, the LTTE trained by India, assassinated Rajiv Gandhi. Just like the Sikihs assassinating Indira Gandhi.’

            Ahh! assassinations and Sri Lanka! lots of history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations_of_the_Sri_Lankan_Civil_War
            Whatever was your sentiment(sadness? God forbid Happiness?) about Indira and Rajiv consider that I feel the same just multiplied by the ratio/population of deaths.

            ‘Bhimrao, in shinhalese we have saying “dont look up and spit”.’
            So generic… what applies to everything applies to nothing.

            Not my style to trade ‘sayings’, not as well read or old as you so don’t know many that sound cool in English.

            0
          3. Saurav,
            Who would those Southern Kings be fighting with , if they were allies with Tamils?

            There was no pan Tamil conscious.
            It was Chera, Chola, Pandyans and Kalinga.

            Sinhalese and Pandyan and Kalinga have been intermarrying since the time of Vijaya (approx 500 BC).

            A little after Parakramabahu I, Lanka pretty much dissolved into chaos. Thru ParakramaBahu marriage, one of the subsequent Kings Nissanka Malla was a born and bred Kalinga. After his death his relative Magha of Kalinga claimed the throne. Ravaged and destroyed North Central Sri Lanka including Buddhist Temples (he was a hindu).

            The Jaffna kingdom was created by him.

            1+
          4. @sbarrkum

            Do Sri Lankans feel offended when mistaken for Indian/considered more or less the same people as Indians?

            I ask, because one of my former classmates at the Fire Academy/EMT class was a Sri Lankan woman (surname Karunaratne) who (born and brought up in the USA), identified only as Sri Lankan. The South Asian aspect of her identity didn’t mean much to her. On the first day of class, I asked her if she was Indian, and she got really worked up and was quite offended, and then reminded me that not all “Brown” people were the same.

            She insisted upon a unique Sri Lankan identity that was quite different from mainland Tamils and extremely different from all other South Asians. I found that quite interesting, not just because Sri Lankans have an origin story that places them firmly in West Bengal (The Sinhalese majority does) but also because her facial features and general appearance didn’t seem all that different to me than other South Indians, and even some East Indians that I had seen.

            On a rather unrelated note: She was quite touchy-feely and liked slapping my behind as a way of greeting me. Of course, I took the hint and eventually had my first an*l experience with her. Wild woman, had soome great times with her. She had the most beautiful mocha skin too, shiny and soft to the touch, with a great hourglass body. Her parents worked for the World Bank and lived in the DMV area. Last I checked, she was married to a US navy sailor. Needless to say, I rather like Sri Lankans. I follow one on Youtube currently, he travels around the world and is a Cambridge-educated M.D. Very cool dude. Chamath Palihapatiya is yet another role model for me, IMO he has the potential to be the next Bezos or Gates if he accomplishes his goals/ambitions. Visionary guy. What makes Sri Lankans so cool and full of swagger? Is it the String Hoppers?

            0
          5. Do Sri Lankans feel offended when mistaken for Indian/considered more or less the same people as Indians
            Yes, prefer to be considered different. No different from English and French. Most could not place me, so reply “Sri Lanka, a small island”. In the Caribbean, uhh. No lying.

            Re female you mention, plese dont use names or specific locations Sri Lanka is very small, and with all the info you had given, I could find out who she is, her relatives in a couple of days/emaisl.

            The South Asian aspect of her identity didn’t mean much, and all “Brown” people were not the same.
            We like to think we are exceptional.

            Re the experience, Sinhalese practiced polyandry, even till 1950’s in very rural areas. Under the British, they had a very very thin veneer of victorian morality. Lot of sleeping around. Women more likely with outsiders, as in not from community etc. Less likely to become an item gossip Holds for Tamils too.
            One of the many reasons we tend to assimilate well where ever we go.
            Just found out my classmates son is married to an Af Am and daughter to a White. My grandfathers brother was married to American Missionary, late 1800’s, dead by 1908. I have second cousins, half Chinese.

            so cool and full of swagger?
            Island nation plus a egalitarian country. Foreigners have been visiting, marrying into for centuries. Even rural villagers are used to seeing different people. (kind of stopped for 30 years during civil war).

            I dont think we are in your face pushy. Just a dont care attitude. Our saying “win or loose we booze” describes us to a T.

            2+
          6. Bhimrao

            You first came up with a put down question.
            Did Sri Lankan (Indians) ever manage to send an army out? or were they lame like the(non Maratha/Sikh) rest of Indians?

            I pointed out, the lame Indian Trained Tamil LTTE gave the Indian People Killing Force (IPKF) a licking and capped it with assasination Rajiv Gandhi

            big were the armies(both Chola/PB) that invaded SE Asia? How big were the fleets? How big the ships?
            Then you came up with a snarky “how big” question. Maybe I have thin skin, so answered appropriately.

            0
        2. Stupid question: how big were the armies(both Chola/PB) that invaded SE Asia? How big were the fleets? How big the ships?

          Aha a dick size contest.
          In SL in general it is black Sudra dicks. Big or small compared to others, who knows. However, when necessary we know how to use it properly.

          Another curiosity, are any of claims of Advaita Vedantins about Shankaracharya true? Buddhist criticism of him sounds non convincing
          No clue as to who he is. I doubt Sri Lankan Buddhist monk even knew of him let alone, criticize him.

          Celebrating killing an allied PM and his forces
          Apparently you idea of an ally, is to train terrorists to destabilize the country.

          Whatever was your sentiment(sadness? God forbid Happiness?) about Indira and Rajiv consider that I feel the same just multiplied by the ratio/population of deaths.

          Rajiv Gandhi forced
          a) Change in the consitution
          b) Force the IPKF.
          c) IPKF raped and killed the very people they came to defend

          Ended with the LTTE defeating the IPKF and later assassinating Rajiv Gandhi.

          Note it was the LTTE, trained by Indira that assassinated Rajiv Gandhi.

          Yes, we (Sinhalese and Tamil) were happy for different reasons
          a)end of India supporting LTTE (invasion)
          b)revenge for IPKF raping and killing Tamils

          0
          1. @sbarrkum

            Wow I had no idea that the LTTE was backed/spawned by the Gandhi family, nor was I aware of the sordid history of the IPKF. Weirdly enough, the whole situation mirrors the U.S government’s propping up of the Taliban to counter the Russians, only to have them turn around and become their opponents in the longest war, as well as providing refuge to their greatest nemesis, ol’ Osama. Funny how interfering with other countries’ business bites you back in the ass. One would think history has taught us this on more than one occasion and yet some people never learn. Tsk tsk.

            Thank you for your wisdom, as always.

            2+
          2. ‘Aha a dick size contest.’
            Have you completely lost your mind? I did not mean any of this! It was a simple honest question! we know all about Chinese flotillas but nothing about our own. There wasn’t even any sarcasm or hidden meaning, What is wrong with you?

            1+
      1. 1% E/SE from Chavakacheri in Jaffna ? Chavakacheri is a coruption of Java cheri , a habitation -cheri- populated by people from Java. Joking

        0
    1. I pointed this out in an earlier post as well. The Hindu RW misreads the supposed antipathy of feminists to Islam and sharia. For feminists, life in a harem with an alpha dog during sexual peak is much preferred than drudgery of lifelong monogamy. In modern Muslim societies, women have more number of life long sexual partners. Again this is preferred by feminists.

      0
        1. This is my controversial take. If you look at all our Epics and myths, the focus is all on reducing the natural instincts of the dominant alpha dogs through filial and societal obligations aka dharma. And I do agree that they are noble and possibly sustainable reasons behind them. OTOH if you see shariah it is very much Carte Blanche to alpha dogs as long they control anarchy. This explains the Islamic appeal to central Asian hordes.

          1+
          1. makes sense. Incel community apparently is noted to be huge fans of Islam and view it as the most “alpha” religion.

            2+
          2. Bhumiputra, thanks for the reply. One aspect that i’m not certain about is if hindu RW folks are more inspired by epics and religious parables than the general population. My casual observation has been that if anything hindu RW has a strong foundation in the urban english speaking savarna middle-class (hence the OBC crooked politician angst), where it gestated for quite some time before establishing its credibility among agrarian “bhumiputra”. My sort of controversial take is that this urban middle-class is remarkably celibate compared to both the rural subalterns and the elite. Not ridiculing anyone, but among male acquaintances, getting married at 32 as a virgin is absolutely normal. If you had a gf from college or office you were one of the cool ones, and having had 2-3 by that age implies you were an absolute playboy. Visiting sex-workers is frowned upon, and as a professional in training, you are unsuitable to get married until you are finished with higher education and fairly established career-wise. Every social expectation forces containing sexual adventurism. Anyways, just my roundabout way of introducing the class angle.

            1+
          3. @Bhumiputra
            Do you live in India?
            “My sort of controversial take is that this urban middle-class is remarkably celibate compared to both the rural subalterns and the elite.”
            Definitely true. People in villages fuck around a lot. I was too young to see this part of village life when I had the chance but my friends in college who had spent all their lives there confirmed the much higher medal tallies in rural India (all of it i.e. Bundelkhand, Mithila, Rohilkhand, Purvanchal, Awadh, Braj, and Bengal).

            “Not ridiculing anyone, but among male acquaintances, getting married at 32 as a virgin is absolutely normal.”
            Yes! but I think it is just a phase, Indian parents(1960s-70s people) currently believe that education and good corporate job is all that stands between their bloodline and having lives of gora/rich people. Very soon their progeny will figure out that education or job is a necessary(in India) but not sufficient requirement for a full life. Most Indians do not work hard, consequentially are not rich and thus have a reason to make up convoluted schemes to get glory the most obvious one to stumble upon being celebacy. The not working hard or passionately bit means they never develop the discipline or face real work/performance related stress that breaks their shell and makes them see the world as it is seen by other professionals i.e. work and party.

            “If you had a gf from college or office you were one of the cool ones, and having had 2-3 by that age implies you were an absolute playboy.”
            So true.

            “Visiting sex-workers is frowned upon”
            Sex-workers and their importance are over-rated all across the globe mostly because thinking about them is titillating to arm-chair economists.

            “and as a professional in training, you are unsuitable to get married until you are finished with higher education and fairly established career-wise.”

            I agree, but the risks are grave for urban people, a large percentage does not own a home or property in village. Boils down to pretty women finding well-earning men. There are hardly any jobs and real self-made (non-trader) entrepreneurial stories (like a factory/workshop owner) are nonexistent. On top of this Indians really look down on actually working hard (mostly because of an oversupply of labor), by and large a job = sitting at a chair and dozing off.

            “Every social expectation forces containing sexual adventurism.”
            True. But there might be more to it I expected our incest/child-abuse rates to be through the roof but they are not.

            So many of my friends in Bangalore complain that they are handed trash projects while all the meaningful work is given to teams in EU/US. Slowly Indians are realizing that beggars cannot be choosers and they mis-spent their self-denial currency on meaningless things, that their family’s multi-generational naïve plan was a non-starter and they have already hit the glass ceiling. Then they will raise their kids differently.

            2+
        2. So ironic though, Islam is the most Beta religion there is, whether its examined through Quranic exegesis, or when interpreted by Wahabists and conservative mullahs through eisegesis. Jihadists have a Beta element to them as well, how else do you explain the incentive for martyrdom and the cowardly acts of suicide bombings and innocent beheadings? Virgins in heaven etc. Islam essentially revolves around controlling women in any way possible. And (unsuccessfully) preventing gay sex.

          Its a codified set of rules created to legislate gender and sexual relations in favor of insecure Beta males, with filler material added in, about a pedophile and his rantings in the desert, to make it all look as “legitimate” as possible. All of this is couched in the implicit understanding that Allah AKA the figment of imagination of goat herders who drink camel urine, communicated the contents of this sexist manual to heathens in need of “enlightenment.” Ah yes, please tell me why having sex with your own daughter is perfectly moral, healthy and legal:

          “Ibn Al-Arabi said, “Lineage is an expression referring to the mixture of fluids between a male and a female from a religious legal point of view. However, if this union (between male and female) occurs through disobedience (fornication) then the resulting child is not considered a part of a person’s true lineage. That is why a daughter born from adultery is not mentioned in Allah’s saying, ‘Prohibited to you (for marriage) are: your mothers and daughters’ (Surah 4:23) because she is not considered a daughter according to the most authentic teaching of our Islamic scholars and the most authentic teaching of our religion.

          If there is no legal lineage then there is no legal relationship; for adultery does not prohibit from marriage the daughter of the mother (you committed adultery with) nor the mother of a woman (you committed adultery with). What is lawfully prohibited is not also prohibited due to sin, for Allah has bestowed lineage and relation through marriage upon His servants and greatly esteemed these relationships. Allah has also established laws identifying what is legal and what is prohibited, which are not equal to each other; therefore falsehood cannot be a part of these laws.” (Tafseer Qurtubi, Surah 25 verse 54; Translated from Al-Azhar’s official website).

          Thus, it can be noted that in this instance, incest between a father and daughter is sanctioned in Islam for two reasons. Firstly, it is because Allah does not recognize the lineage of the daughter who is born out of wedlock. Secondly, it is because Allah did not forbid this form of incestuous marriage in the Qur’an.”

          How much of an incel do you have to be to approve marital/sexual relations with one’s own daughter? Jesus Christ.

          3+
          1. I doubt medieval central Asian warlords took a fine comb and pored over all the religious material that they were adopting. Like most CEOs/leaders they were more concerned with their bottom line I.e. unfettered power and legitimacy of battle field victories.

            1+
          2. @girmit,
            I feel what you are describing is current state maybe at a slightly deeper level but does not go motivation or ideals. Also I used RW in a more broader sense because those ethos permeate bhumiputras as well at least in the urban areas. This is where I thought myths and epics play a role. I do agree that class has a role to play as well. Even in US, David brooks of the times has written extensively about how WEIRD whites have very conservative social mores while publicly advocating libertinism to lower classes. But again here the stories and myths of Christianity especially catholic might play a role. Catholicism in particular emphasizes life long marriage. The long interaction between convents in India and urban elites in India reinforced these preexisting tendencies. I remember reading about one Roman custom where a married woman of child bearing age has special ritual significance. This has striking resemblance to a similar practice in south India. Point is what does a particular society/history approves as legitimate behavior by elite males matters.
            @bhimrao,
            Currently I am not based in India.

            0
      1. I think Hindu RW anyways has a blind spot for feminists and muslim women.

        No need to help communities who cant help themselves. Make your laws more and more modern and leave the others to their fate. And then u will see the rise of “Hindu” feminist like we see “Hindu” atheist. 🙂

        1+
  24. In the future I cannot waste my scarce free time on specimens without or with little subject knowledge and with poor interpersonal skills. To save some time I will sometimes post Google translated comments from original sources (as this bellow) which I will try to edit and hopefully, they will be comprehensive and will add value. There is a lot of linguistic (and other) material, at least for the next two years of commenting. So, pundits, fasten your seat belts and enjoy the journey…

    Just to remind pundits that we still haven’t received any explanation for the meaning of

    RG, RB (or, even better – SRB), PIR, etc.

    “…Let’s touch on the lexical weight of contemporary Serbian treasure. It would be a huge job for several dozens of associates, because after all that we have done as a result of work in the field of so-called “Indo-European studies”, we will have endless trouble and we will clearly single out every Serbian word, and deeply analyze it and prove that it is primordial Serbian. One does not have to be a linguist or a specially educated person to understand this. In the first phase of the work, every Serbian peasant who can read would be able to find and single out thousands of Serbian words on 1333 large format pages (each page with three compactly printed columns) of the largest and most authoritative Sanskrit-English Oxford dictionary, which since Veda has not changed at all up to today. I will mention here first the Vedic TATA (dad), and another Vedic family term that is appropriate for the mother – NANA. Let me then mention all the relatives of the unchanged ancient Serbian names – BRAT, SESTRA, STRINA, SVEKAR, SVEKRVA and even DEVER, KUM, SVASTIKA (=BROTHER, SISTER, AUNT, FATHER-IN-LAW, MOTHER-IN-LAW, and even DEVER, GODFATHER, SISTER-IN-LAW), etc. Then the Serbian folk names of people and they are all in the Vedas, and numerous geographical names, which pleasantly surprise us when carefully examining each side …”

    “…And when, with “linguistic microscopy”, the names of Vedic deities begin to be examined, which in the Serbian language still retain a specific meaning, such as: OGANJ, OGNJA, NAPAT, JAMA, SURA, SARAN-JU, VIŠNJI, PARJANIJA, DAN-U, DEVA-VAT, APSARA-S, DASA, MANA, RAJ-I, RAKA, RASA, URANA, VAJA, VALA, VARUNA, MITRA, ŠOMA, JADU-U, VALA, PRIJA-MED-A … among these names we have the following – DIVODASA, so as UČANA, so as KUČA, etc, etc. DIVO-DASA is almost astonishing because the same kind of compounds in the Serbian language still exists?….”

    0
  25. We are continuing our linguistic discussion…

    We mentioned earlier that I2A haplogroup was the only haplogroup on British Isles between 5500 BC and 2500 BC when R1B arrived. We also mentioned that their language influenced later Proto-Germanic. Although, there are only 5% of I2A today (one descendant is Chuck Norris), many British toponyms still have original ancient Serbian names. We will list hundreds of these toponyms later, but today we will explain only one.

    The name of the English river Dervent comes from word DRVO (Tree).

    It is interesting to mention that the Old Germanic form for the word Tree, which reads Trewo, or Drevo, i.e. from West Proto-Germanic trewwo. It cognates with Middle Dutch ‘trouwe’ (Dutch trouw), Old Saxon ‘treuwa’, Old High German ‘triuwa’ (German Treue).

    From this will later remain the language minimum in English – TRE…
    The English today do not say Trevo but only Tree.

    NOTE: We still haven’t received the meaning of the word RG. Could oit at least cite Tallageri who knows everything about Rg Veda? If we do not receive any contribution soon, I will escalate this thing to Anan.

    0
  26. I feel like South Asia would be better off if India and Pakistan were led by Rahul Gandhi and Bilawal Bhutto rather than Modi and Imran Khan.

    0
    1. All of them are dull as dirt. I am telling you this is because of Urdu, thinking in Hindi burdens you with obvious-pedestrian dharmic religious virtues and naive worldview, thinking in Urdu makes you overconfident as rubbish sounds deep and thoughtful. Pick most urdu shers and ghazals and just think what they say, most of the time it would just be meaning-less, the more convoluted the word the better it sounds. Pick most hindi poem and without any rhyme or reason there would be Hindu motifs. I don’t know of even one Hindi sci-fi novel. It is almost as if Indians can’t do world building without borrowing heavily from Hindu epics.

      The only people to fear in Pakistan are the Air force, N-bomb generals and the ISI. Everyone else is boring.

      0
  27. Many pundits are probably interested in the origins of their mother tongues which, themselves, originated from Sanskrit while Sanskrit itself is a young offspring of much older European language. BP is one of the first places in the world which provide evidence that Serbian language is the direct offspring of the pra-language (often called: ‘Indo-European’ and ‘PIE’).

    Let see what French Ami Boue (1794-1881) in 1840 writes (Google translated) about Serbian language:

    Ami Boue, “LaTurquie d’Europe”. Tome deuxieme. Editeur Arthus Bertrand, 1840. Pp. 36, 37, 38, 41.

    https://books.google.com.au/books?id=LqcQMQAACAAJ&pg=PP3&hl=sr&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

    “The Serbian language is rich, laconic, energetic and harmonious, it suits both men and women equally well and is used just as happily to sing love tenderness as well as the great and bloody feats of the god Mars.” Serbian unites a number with a measure, it is sonorous, elegant, eloquent, strong, it is also the language of heroes and speakers. The Serb speaks more slowly than the German, taking breaks and in a way that adapts wonderfully to debates. No discussion in any European language reminds us anymore of the decency and eloquence of English speeches, like the one that takes place in Serbian. The whole difference is that the Englishman is too often phlegmatic and cold in his interior, while the soul of the Serbs is warmed by the southern sun…

    The construction of Serbian sentences is so simple, Serbs have so much sense of precision, their imagination is so miraculously Eastern, everyone speaks so politely when it’s their turn, that we can only admire their language, compared to the stuttering of Greeks, accompanied by gestures and frequent interruptions. present, either with French and Italian too inflated and full of rhetorical flowers, or with the language of sullen Germans, with their sentences in which the day is lost and with their ability to see beauty half-wrapped in a veil. If ever one language and one people were created to rule by public debates, it is certainly the Serbian language and the Serbian people.

    It is very inconvenient that the study of the Serbian language has not yet been facilitated by complete works … Serbs have a lot of beautiful poetry and that alone should oblige us to learn their language … “

    3+
    1. What to say on the above comment?

      Maybe just to cite Patrick Louth (1976) and TBH* (2020):
      – “…what a beautiful human group….what a marvellous race…”

      …………………………………………………………….
      *TBH – Top Ghan Hors

      0
      1. I will Hojislav, as soon as I get some time, there are so many, old, very old, modern and postmodern, I have even old ritual songs from Serbs who, after pressure, long time ago returned from India and Kyrgyzstan after living there for more than a thousand or two years…

        Also, in the above citation should be TGH instead of TBH (apologies TG).

        1+
  28. IIM Bangalore organised a talk with Muhammed K K of Archaeological Society of India.

    Chambal Dacoits and Conservation of Heritage: Management Lessons by

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0VCpgQy4Bs

    K K Muhammed worked relentlessly to restore and conserve around 200 temples in the Chambal valley. He worked with dacoits who had records of murdering around > 200.

    Photo essay: https://road-to-nara.com/2020/08/03/bateshwar-temples-from-the-eyes-of-the-legendary-archaeologist-kk-muhammad-a-photo-essay-and-film/

    Shorter video: https://vimeo.com/422665403

    2+
    1. I like the way the right in India is trying to create an alternate intellectual system. Perhaps it will sustain once they are out of power, but nascent today though

      3+
    1. Have you ever considered posting your viewpoints and hypotheses to the test at The Apricity where you can have discussions with actual Europeans and West Asians?

      3+
  29. As always it will remain in election manifesto. And if by chance there is some movement, our Dravidians will take care it remains in the dustbin.

    1+
    1. I dont think dravidians would have a problem with it as it says that they were only talking about bihar (It’s a state election manifesto after all)

      1+
  30. Austin, we have a problem!

    I am not getting any response on my question to explain the words ‘rg’ (‘veda’ was explained but we may need other possible explanations). I initially ignored the existing English translations considering that they are descriptive, but I simply cannot see the right one. It does not mean that they do not exist because I haven’t seen all. If someone knows, he/she is seriously invited to tell us. Oit – welcomed.

    This has a global significance. I am forced to issue a mayday call. This is not a drill.

    If nothing helps, I will be pressed to go to the last instance – to escalate the case with Anan.

    0

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