Documenting selective truth, lies, rhetoric

Continuing present theme of figuring out solutions. One thing we can do is document people making up brazen lies and incidents of bad rhetoric for posterity. Good standards require us to do so at least in regards to journalists and scholars.

“Under a government of the Hindu Right, India is witnessing yet another phase of reaction and orthodoxy, a return to medieval Brahminical values that seek to monopolise rights for a select few and turn everyone else out of the body politic.”
This is said by a historian, Ananya vajpayei .

“You can either erect a Hindu Rashtra that is already always a caste society and a patriarchy, or you can build an egalitarian, secular, pluralist and inclusive India. “

“The first step in protecting our Constitution is to recognize the seamless continuum between caste-based discrimination and communal hatred that provides the very plinth of Hindutva.”

There is a question going around in twitter asking that “if journalism is filled with many inaccuracies and lies, how trustable are historians?”. In this case,it is a clear lie to say that bjp is trying to foist caste once again on India society.

What is interesting is that liberals and left in India seem to keep making arguments, whether journalism or in academia of associating negative values to Hinduism in its totality and exculpating any negative values to other religions or ideologies.

In terms of rhetoric there seems to be little differentiation between bigots of other religions and them. Many journalists in India have used “cow piss drinkers” etc jibes to others, something one finds in common with islamic bigots for example. or disparaging the word “bhakt” which is similar to the word “muslim” or “christian”. It is not surprising that a lot of people dont trust many of these people.

when dhume was pressed on it, he says its merely making fun.

It would make better sense for people to just document lies and such rhetoric for posterity.

25 thoughts on “Documenting selective truth, lies, rhetoric”

  1. If you are making the point that mockery is not conducive to a good-faith conversation or debate and that the people who indulge in mockery are often indulging in virtue signaling, I agree with you. But how do you distinguish those who ARE arguing in good faith from those who aren’t? Doesn’t the blanket assumption of mockery give its targets an easy excuse to check out of the conversation?

    You mention the term “cow piss drinkers”, saying that people use this to mock (some) Hindus. But you do realize that a lot of Hindus (including people in the current Hindu Right) practice and advocate cow piss drinking openly? That modified forms of cow piss are marketed on platforms like Amazon? That “panchagavya”, which (correct me if I’m wrong) contains both cow piss and cow dung is applauded for its healing properties or something? These are facts, aren’t they? So if people really do believe that cow piss drinking is beneficial, why not just own it? Rather than pretend to be outraged when people of a different ideological ilk (and some enemies) point out this practice?

    1. I made a specific point that when one cannot differentiate between bigots of other religions and said journalists or academics in terms of their rhetoric,mockery or arguments, it makes sense for people to not engage them. If after all the goal is to foster better culture and trust, there are things we all do not do. Does it make sense to mock people for their color?. After all, color is intrinsic to people as well. Why should anyone feel offended , there is no intrinsic inferiority in having any color of skin.

    2. Numinous says:

      So if people really do believe that cow piss drinking is beneficial, why not just own it? Rather than pretend to be outraged when people of a different ideological ilk (and some enemies) point out this practice?

      I think the people who are offended by this are probably not cow urine drinkers themselves, it would be comparable to calling Muslims ‘terrorists’ as it will be the non-terrorist Muslims who will be offended rather than the terrorist Muslims.

      1. To add to this there is simply more variance within hindu practice compared to islam.

        I am sure many vegetarian Gujarati Hindus for eg. would be shocked to find out about mass animal sacrifice in Nepal’s Gadhimai festival.

    1. phyecon1 says:

      also, one cannot explain the new habit of mocking people as “bhakt”

      It is to create negative associations with an innocuous word, in this case “bhakt”. This sort of stuff is aimed at the university educated types who move in liberal circles, as the mocking of the term “bhakt” is done with a high degree of cynicism as in “look at these fools, they think they are patriots but are actually leading the nation to ruin”, but this escapes the average person and so they start to see these elites as a *hostile* elite.

      This is a win for the Right as the Left control a lot of the cultural institutions, so public hostility towards these institutions is good from the Right’s perspective.

  2. The liberal and the left in India are useful idiots. Let them be. They are digging holes for the eventual foundation of a Republic that will be based on Indic and Dharmic constituents. In at least 4 spaces, they have provided a fulcrum for the Right to leverage.

    1. The Babri Masjid – Lying, intimidating, setting spurious standards for the truth and denial convinced a lot of Indians that the secular establishment is a very sorry caricature of a fraud.

    2. History writing – Like I referenced Kapil Komireddi earlier, these liberals have been continuously engaged in the artifice of showing European imperialism as exploitation and Asian Imperialism (Persian, Turks, lapsed Mongols) as enrichment. Subliminally this is a gold mine for daily enlightenment and recruitment of Indians to the right cause.

    3. Islam – The rock on which the liberal order will be broken (BP quote). In India, this is the classic steroid that gets liberals going. Support for Triple Talaq – check, support for separate civil laws – check, support for regressive religious laws that discriminate against women – check. The normal, sane, average Indian is totally flummoxed.

    4. Caste – This is not apparent immediately. You see a lot of contradictions in liberal positions when they hope Hindutva is defeated by a caste coalition. This is a slow cooking pit. One day the Overton window will shift decisively here as well.

    The samudra-manthan is going on – let us not deny the left-liberals their churning rope.

  3. The thing is, I am sick of the selective game they play and at times the pushback I see necessary to give.

  4. “One thing we can do is document people making up brazen lies and incidents of bad rhetoric for posterity.”

    Let me document three lies and untruths here at BP which I personally experienced:

    First, let’s call it ‘#1 – NAKED LIE’ is: ‘Byzantine historical documents verified arrival of Slavic colonists.’

    Second, let’s use Razib’s favourite term ‘#2 – DUMBAS’: ‘Alexander the Great was a Greek and Macedonia was a part of Greece’.

    Third, let’s finish on positive and put a positive spin on the untruth: ‘Anatolian G2A genetics replaced Vinca’s genetics’ and name this as – ‘#3 – KNOWLEDGE ZERO’.

    I will address these lies in the following day or two. They are not just lies for the sake of lying they are local reflections of the general serbophobia which is, unlike antisemitism and islamophobia that are protected by global legal instruments, terror or American military power, desirable and encouraged. To be fair, they are also often parts of the official (though falsified) historical mainstream.

    1. Just a clarification…

      Antisemitism and islamophobia are sanctioned and retaliated by global legal system, leftist idiotism, jihadi terror and American military power while serbophobia is desirable, encouraged and followed by history falsifications and media satanisation.

  5. Drinking cow piss is dumb.

    But Hindutuva is a lot more Egalitarian than the Brahmin+elite muslim (clowns and jihadist sympathizers like Owaisi and company) gang that controlled and still control Congress I. The latter just know how to better advertise in the Token dalit.

    Hindutuva is a pan Hindu movement. The whole reason the Brahmin and elite muslim gang of Congress I are scared is that OBCs are no longer fooled by their nonsense and caste based regional party exploitation. They are seeing through the chicanery and have joined the pan Hindu, frankly pan dharmic, movement.

    1. warlock says:

      Drinking cow piss is dumb…

      These Hindutva types need to work on their branding, I have heard of fairly high up officials of the BJP inaugurating gomutra factories and whatnot.

      In the end, Hindutva must be a *real* secular movement with things like temples and whatnot being resurrected more due to a desire to reincarnate architectural styles of the past as opposed to religious reasons. Whether you like it or not, religion is quite retarded and a place like India needs less of it.

  6. BJP politicians are twenty first century compradors. It is an open question whether they serve Indian interests or American interests. The only obstacle to an India that was subservient to the American empire were Indian Muslims. BJP has prepared Indian subservience to the American empire by marginalizing Indian Muslims.

    1. Roy says:

      The only obstacle to an India that was subservient to the American empire were Indian Muslims.

      And pray tell what what exactly is the quality of Indian Muslims that makes them such a powerful force in determining Indian foreign policy? What were the Pakistani Muslims doing all this time when they were more or less subservient to America?

      There is a bifurcation going on between China and America, India would preferably have joined the former in an alliance but due to border line issues as well as China’s all-weather support for India’s ideological arch-nemesis Pakistan, India is forced to join the US camp at long last (note India was in the anti-US, pro-USSR bloc before the fall of the Soviet Union).

      It is becoming increasingly difficult to remain neutral and non-aligned, so USA it is.

    2. Someone named roy, accusing others of collaboration with a foreign power, is the epitome of ethnic dissonance.

      1. Isnt Roy alternate spelling of Rai

        I read names like Saxena and Rowan and see them as very European.

        Had a school mate, Knower. Used to puzzle me till explained. Navaratnam shortened and spelt alternatively

  7. “What is interesting is that liberals and left in India seem to keep making arguments, whether journalism or in academia of associating negative values to Hinduism in its totality and exculpating any negative values to other religions or ideologies.”

    Its alright. It gives the Hindu right, some target to fight against. Especially when you are dominant and the on ground enemies are few, you need as much coherence as possible, lest complacency creeps in. Also gives the left-liberals false hope to cling on, and resurface rather than go underground. Makes it easier to identify targets.

    Best of both worlds i would say.

  8. “This is said by a historian, Ananya vajpayei .”

    Knowing his husband , i am not surprised by the views. Actually surprised, that its still this tame

  9. the man on the street is not bothered. everybody( congress has accepted the hindu majority view.
    the english print media crowds have no listeners outside the campuses.

  10. some count in election cycles, others in decades and some others in centuries. Which one is more accurate?. I dont know. In anycase, this kind of view is myopic. It shows fits and starts approach to things. lose an election and start working. win an election and forget and let things be. That kind of thing is wrong. Documenting by comparison gives one a long term view of things. I get the “ignorance is bliss” view. But this peculiar Indian view of “ignorance is highest wisdom and politically wise and prudent” is something I dont understand for something as simple as merely documenting.

  11. #1 – NAKED LIE

    “Byzantine historical sources verified arrival of Slavic colonists”

    What is wrong (i.e. falsehood) in above sentence? Simply – every word.
    So-called ‘Byzantine’ has never existed. The term was coined by Hieronymus Wolf in 1557AC, more than 100 years after the fall of Constantinople, but it was not in use until the 18th cAC. That was actually the name of the village next to Constantinople. In brief, the term was invented to artificially separate East Roman Empire history from Roman Empire under the influence from Catholic Church and to claim the entire heritage and legal succession of Roman Empire what is actual even in today’s politics.

    We already wrote extensively about false Slavic (i.e. Serbian) migration to Balkan in the 7th cAC. This falsification is a cornerstone of the world history. There is a strong resistance to debunk this falsification (although Italy, Spain and Nederland removed this from their histories) because the whole world history must be rewritten, including ‘ancient’ Greece and Rome, Alexander the Great, Aryans, Germania, etc. It is symptomatic that not one witness account exists about this migration. It is usually quoted a document from K. Porphyrogenite which was forged in 1711, i.e. 1100 years after alleged migration. Apart from obvious falsifications (version of Greek language that was not used, Italian toponyms from the 16th cAC, etc) there are so many humorous parts as well. In brief, Slavic colonists crossed the whole Europe, passed Belgrade came to Thessaloniki (650km from Belgrade) where they were accommodated next to the city, after that they were returned to Belgrade and from there sent over Bosnian mountains to the moon landscape Adriatic coast. The forger was not qualified in logistics, otherwise he would know that the supposed migrants procession would be 1500 km long, that people from one valley near Thessaloniki populated whole Yugoslavia without any explanation what’s happened with local people who suddenly disappeared.

    Even, if this document was original, it was written more than 300 years after the alleged migration. How Porphyrogenite could know in detail what’s happened if there was no any other document or witness account? Vatican’s chronicler Mauro Orbini in the 16th cAC wrote extensive history Kingdom of the Slavs (available on Net) where he did not mention any migration.

    This brief (but still long) description of this falsification is important for pundits to understand that many historical events, including those which are in their focus, might be forged. On several occasions I offered a reward to those who provide ONE evidence, account from anyone, that alleged migration happened in the past, but I did not get any. Despite this, the above lie was repeated several times, probably with expectation that after certain number of times it will become the truth. It is simply unreal that one such obvious untruth, lies in the foundations of the world history. By absolving this, pundits can step ahead of dumb crowd which is prepared to swallow anything what is flying.

    Stay tuned for more debunked lies:

    #2 – DUMBAS (“Alexander the Great was a Greek and Macedonia was a part of “ancient” Greece”) and,
    #3 – KNOWLEDGE ZERO (“G2a replaced Vinca’s genetics” – here we will see how Georgian capital city Tbilisi got its name from a Serbian word which was brought by G2a)

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