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fragment_and_activities
fragment_and_activities
2 years ago

There is a phrase in Urdu –

न ख़ुदा ही मिला न विसाल-ए-सनम, न इधर के हुए न उधर के हुए।

Woke Hindus in a nutshell.

GauravL
Editor
2 years ago

“Dont give an Inch”
Example:
Q – “What about human rights abuse in India?”
A – Lies, exaggerations and misreporting. Next question !

principia
principia
2 years ago

As such, we affirm their claims that Dr. Varma’s work has produced extraordinary harm to the subjects of her research and to the anti-occupation struggles of Kashmiris, something that compounds other ongoing violence and trauma caused by the Indian settler state.

It is hard to put into words my contempt for US “liberalism”. It’s basically identity politics olympics on steroids with meaningless phrases thrown in. The worst part is many Hindu diaspora types try to play that game, especially 2nd gen and more specifically 2nd gen women.

Some threads ago I voiced my pessimism about Asian-American activism and part of the problem I highlighted was that there is lack of asabiyah and too many buy into the woke ideology. Both issues are present here. They say the revolution always ends up eating its own children and that’s what we are seeing here.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

“ Some threads ago I voiced my pessimism about Asian-American activism and part of the problem I highlighted was that there is lack of asabiyah“

Again , I wonder where u are getting these ideas from..

principia
principia
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

The UK Hindu community, which is often viewed as more conservative than its US counter-part, is split on Modi:
comment image

The non-Hindu community *hate* Modi. Weak Asabiyah. As I noted previously, even “liberal” Jews will kvetch but ultimately support Israel no matter how long it is ruled by far-right Jewish nationalists. That’s not the case here.

UK Hindus are split even on core Indian national security objectives, like allowing international “observers” to go into Kashmir.

comment image

As for the US, only half of Indian-Americans are Hindus. And as you go outside the Indian-American community, it becomes harder to knit a large “Asian” community together. Razib has posted evidence that Indian-Americans get promoted twice the rate of white Americans and something like 4X more often than East Asians.

So when East Asians complain about the “bamboo ceiling”, it’s not something Indians in America can relate to. Oversexualisation of East Asian women also strikes me as less of a relatable issue for Indian girls. Plus the gender ratio in IR marriages is quite even between Indians and whites, unlike East Asians and whites. So a major source of cultural friction between East Asian (males) and white (males) isn’t present.

There are many other things you could talk about. But to sum up, there are splits within the Indian community due to far greater diversity of religion than in India (Hindus only being 50% of Indian-Americans) and too different experiences in the diaspora between Indians and East Asians. You add woke ideology, increasing discrimination of affirmative action (which woke believers must uphold) and it’s not hard to see my pessimism.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

Yeah this is depressing. Is there a comparative look at other PMs?

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Modi is already in the same league of demonization as Trump and Bolsonaro. The only saving grace is he practices message discipline and does not shoot his mouth off. I have had normie americans ask about Modi and not in a flattering way. I would not be surprised if survey responders are masking their true preferences.
UP Hindus need more asabiya and that too for their own good, rather than piss around on others. The current PB issue looks more like latest iteration of PB vs UP issue starting with Anglo Sikh wars in 1840s. It is interesting pattern that whenever there is a full majority government in Delhi backed by UP/Bihar seats, as was the case in early 70s and now, the PB issue starts boiling. This time, Jats have switched sides and SP is acting like willing quislings 🙁 sad. The entire GT Road belt needs to come to its senses.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

“UP Hindus need more asabiya”

Are u kidding? Bro, we are the reason the current Hindu nationalist govt is in power, in the first place. Before asking us, lets have the Hindus of other areas to exhibit a bit more Asabiya. Jats are 2-3 percent of UP pops, no need to exaggerate their influence.

As i have said before, its high time and we have carried the ‘Hindu’ cross on our back, for far too long.

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago

@principia and others:

Not sure why this conversation has devolved into a pro- or anti-Modi discussion. The Kashmir issue has always been a bipartisan third rail of Indian politics. It’s not like Modi was the first to take a hardline position in Kashmir; that was begun by Nehru himself. All political parties, including the Congress, and almost all of Indian society, are for integrating Kashmir into India, whether by hook or by crook. The people who are protesting and making woke arguments here seem to be Kashmiri expats in the US: big surprise!

One can be anti-Modi (or just not a Modi fan) while still favoring a hardline position on Kashmir (including the Article 370 revocation).

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

b/c from 1999 through 2014, India faced with a series of terrorist attacks throughout India without visible retaliation. At least the NDA made some noise about boycott and parakram etc. During UPA years, Congress ecosystem encouraged us to lie on our back and enjoy it while pursuing Aman Ki asha. To rub salt in our wounds, UPA encouraged bogey of Hindu terror.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhumiputra

“ To rub salt in our wounds, UPA encouraged bogey of Hindu terror. “

And “Hindus”voted in even greater numbers for them in 2009 then they did in 2004.

Asabiya, anyone ?

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhumiputra

You must be really young, to not know about or under-emphasize what happened before ’99.

Nothing happened between 1999-2014 that was worse than the insurgency that started in the late 80s and was quite virulent in the early 90s (Kargil and the 2008 Mumbai attacks were bad, but what happened around 1990 left a much bigger impression on my mind). It was the Narasimha Rao govt that managed to get the situation under control, at a time when Pakistan was much more powerful and influential in the world with respect to us than they have ever been in the 21st century.

Yes, the Congress govt was limp in its response to the 2008 attacks, but then so was the BJP govt during the Kandahar hijacking. On the flipside, the situation in Kashmir never looked better than in the years surrounding 2010, terrorism was basically gone, tourism was booming, etc. Whatever strategy the govt had was working at the time.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

I am aware of what happened before ’99 and referenced it in my observation about how PB issue flares up whenever there is a strong central government backed by UP/BH seats. But IG/RG congress (their missteps are another topic of discussion) till 91, PVNR Congress through ’99 and SG congress post ’96 are 3 different beasts. Another categorization error you make is comparing Kandahar response with 2008 response. While ABV rightly gets criticized for not disabling the plane in Amritsar, once the place left India and relatives were wailing in front of TVs there were no good options. The 2008 response has to be compared with Uri and Pulwama response. People rightly recognize lack of will/intent vs lack of options.
It is curious that you admit that the terror attacks of 2000s were bad but pivot to say things were good in Kashmir around 2010. No surprise. India was being bled all over, people were making money in the global boom with whatever means (ethical and unethical), Congress ATF was hunting the ghost of Hindu terror. But what matters is that Kashmiris were able to peacefully practice Kashmiriyat at the Indian tax payer expense and those of Indian soliders lives.
This kind of situation is why I keep referencing Thucydides quote–
A society that separates its scholars and warriors will have its fighting done by fools and thinking done by cowards.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

“Yes, the Congress govt was limp in its response to the 2008 attacks, but then so was the BJP govt during the Kandahar hijacking. ”

I don’t understand how these two scenarios are same, in one case Indian citizens died on the streets of an Indian city. In the other case Indian govt bend to save its citizens on foreign soil.

The closest comparison of Kandahar hijacking is the Rubiya Sayed episode.

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

2008 came as a surprise. What you are asking for is proper retaliation after al those killings occurred, and if so, I agree with you that, well “something” should have been done.

The hijacking on the other hand, by the time it got to Kandahar, gave enough time for “something” (other than the eventual handoff) to have been prepared. To be fair to the govt, probably they wouldn’t have been able to pull off an Entebbe, but then you can’t single out a political party for blame for that.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yewEUIm2yao

looks like plastic surgery trend has come to India

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago

Street power in India

Maharashtra – Shiv Sena
Tamilnadu – Assorted Dravidians and DK
Kerala – CPI apparatchiks
Punjab – All shades of Khalistanis
Bihar – Yadav/Muslim Bloc
West Bengal – Whichever regime is in power
Telangana – AIMIM/TRS
Jammu Kashmir – Islamists
Haryana/West UP – Jats

If you notice the groups and their political affiliation, you will notice that Congress has alliances with almost every one except Punjab & Maharashtra.

Hard power in India flows to whoever enforces the street. For some reason, this escapes the BJP brand of politics. It is still a coalition of the numerous weak or the silent majority.

The more one is inclined to think that a ecosystem is made up of only intellectuals and media, the more they tend to kvetch. BJP and Modi are suffering from a surfeit of such supporters.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

For a long time, the powers that be expected the foot soldiers to play their varna/karma assigned role for free and fade away for their superiors to enjoy the political/social/economic fruits. Their only consolation prize was sporadic social acceptance wherein they got a temporary certificate of Hindu-ness.
Things have changed a little bit in last 7 years. Whether this is a tactical change or long term directional change, only time will tell.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhumiputra

@Bhumiputra

This is true. OBCs played foot soldiers to Congress so that the Gangetic/Delhi elites could kneel at leisure to secular/communal causes. Congress never pandered to its foot soldiers – good boss move!! But hurt itself in the long run.

Shashank
Shashank
2 years ago

US is emerging as the hotbed of islamo Marxist alliance. Recent deplatforming of Dr Malone- creator of mRNA. Do watch Joe Rogan’s podcast with him. He explains it beautifully how Global Pharma, Global Health alliances are compromised.

Prats
Prats
2 years ago

Lalu Yadav’s elder son Tej Pratap Yadav now has a YouTube channel.

This is hilarious in a very dark way.

Some guy: “Meri behen ka apahran ho gaya hai”
[My sister has been kidnapped]

TPY (to the camera): “Jaisa aap dekh sakte hain. Mere paas log apni samasya lekar aate hain.”
[As you can see, people come to me with their problems]

This is the kind of comedy that’d put even Ricky Gervais to shame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3p8n5ijxqk&t=44s

Prats
Prats
2 years ago

Idle thought:
Aam Aadmi Party has the wokest most urban base of any party in the country.
At want point will supporters point out that it’s sexist to use the masculine ‘Aadmi’?

What do you think their new name will be?

I think they’d want to keep the acronym intact. So they’ll go with ‘Aam Adhikar Party’ or something instead of ‘Aam Insaan Party’.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Aam janta party

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Aam Awam Party (AAP)

but that would be very Urduish

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Amar Akbar Anthony Party

Shashank
Shashank
2 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Not just woke. They are the dumbest youngsters you will ever come across. I support the name Aam Adamkhor Party.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago

Random thoughts:

Recently saw that the Hindu temple in Bay Area has a Parasnath ji idol in its pantheon. I never saw this in any temple in India. Is it common outside India?

###

@Prats
Re: trash in public places
I just don’t get the apathy in Indians. Even the young Indians are so soul-less. During my college NSS camp, we were deployed to broaden a village road and fill potholes. Very few (<20 out of 400+) folks did all the work, rest just sat under trees bitching . Ditto with the school teaching or surveying deployments. Tall talk, no work, zero vitality.

Prats
Prats
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

I find it very annoying that all these Modi fans who hang on to every word of the bullshit he spews just conveniently forget to keep surroundings clean.
I mean these days almost all urban places have dust bins yet people insist on throwing stuff out of moving cars on the street side. Some weird pathology that’s hard to cure.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago

@Prats

At least Indians have reduced defecating in the open.

Bakchod hain sab. Last year my neighbors refused to pay Rs 100/month for municipal garbage collection and just pile it up in a nearby pond.

Can’t help them, their lives are their punishments.

###

Have you seen Shark Tank India? Liked all the VCs. I found a few pitches and ideas good. Hope this show takes off.

Shashank
Shashank
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

Dude I had an opposite views. All VCs were crap. I didn’t like any ideas yet. But will watch for few more episodes

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago
Reply to  Shashank

Bhai in reality Indian ”VCs” are much-much worse. I had low expectations to begin with and the people on the show really surprised me. The bharatpe guy even invested in that shitty electric-vehicle company.

The Braille literacy device and smart helmet was decent. The home dialysis one was good. Yarn trading one was good.

I also liked the wall finishing coating people’s pitch because Indian construction materials really really suck. Not saying their product would be an improvement but there is a market there.

We are a poor, financially-conservative country of low-confidence, low-skill, low-drive people, improvements will take time. I hope this becomes what Boogie-Woogie of 90s was to Dance reality shows.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago
Reply to  Shashank

Recently someone I know was very seriously considering starting a MRI center in interior/small-town Eastern India. The investment math just doesn’t work out. I have highest regards for anyone who figures out a profitable business in rural/urban-poor healthcare (or nutrition).

Brown
Brown
2 years ago

bjp won the chandigarh mayor post. congress and akali abstained!!!. a a p was denied the prize.
this is how they will keep a a p out of power in the assembly elections.

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago

Looking at Razib’s latest Twitter feed, it looks like the Hindutvavaadis are desperate to prove the assertions of the most desperate white nationalists that we are a low-IQ people. It seems our (Indians’) capacity for independent thought is very low; when most of these people read something Razib writes, their frog brains just shout “Muslim, Muslim, Muslim”!

My country’s future really seems desperate. (Not that the West’s future is in great hands.)

Shashank
Shashank
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

Dude I’m deplatformed by the Twitter for sharing a video where a Maulana in Bareilly said that Hindus will be wiped off. I don’t know what happened to Razib.

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  Shashank

Sorry to hear that. I hope they “platform” you back soon. I’m under no illusions about where the motivations of those who are shutting you down are coming from.

That said, though deplatforming is (of course) bad, so is a constant stream of abuse guided toward you on Twitter, especially if it’s inaccurate. Just see what’s going on his Twitter to get an idea.

Shashank
Shashank
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

I don’t think I have that many followers to begin with. The Twitter Administration replied “misinformation”. I don’t know now. Others have shared it but not blocked or deplatformed.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

Is this basically it?

Razib has called some Hindutuva trolls low IQ. They associate Razib with far right groups and also Islam. The prior because they also, well on the surface, seem to value IQ, albeit for often bad reasons. Razib actually values IQ and meritocracy. The latter because they view people through the lens of perceived communal identity largely.

Nonetheless, because the trolls are mad at Razib about something (AIT/AMT?), they make the strawman that Razib says “82” to refer to India as a stupid nation, when in reality, if he ever makes that type of remark, it is specific reference to low IQ trolls.

In order to jab back to this perceived slight, they make bigoted remarks against Muslims and say “77,” the same IQ that is cited for Bangladesh (Razib’s parents’ homeland) in the sources that cite the Indian “82.” Then they refuse to let go and keep trolling in groups.

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Yeah, I think you summarized it accurately. There’s also that when Razib mentioned the 82 IQ, he was being sarcastic, but if your radar is super-sensitive to what “Muslims” are saying, you probably don’t get it, like the people who tweeted back at him.

This is just the latest situation BTW. I think whenever he expresses an opinion that’s not popular in RW Hindu circles (like on AIT, caste, or colonialism), he gets similar crap. Other writers of his ilk get that too.

Why am I bothered by this so much? Because I think critical-thinking and broad-mindedness is crucial to our development. More specifically, Indians will be better-served by reading (and analyzing) publications like Razib’s instead of wandering forever in WhatsApp rabbit holes.

Brown
Brown
2 years ago

interesting, i found this. if kerala can tolerate this, this will spread every where.
https://exmuslimsofkerala.org/about-us/

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  Brown

This is encouraging. I wish our RW Hindus can advocate and celebrate things like these rather than try to turn Hinduism into a more fanatic direction.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago

https://hindupost.in/terrorism/3-operatives-of-canda-based-khalistani-terror-group-arrested-in-moga-punjab-were-planning-grenade-attack-on-church/

saved leftist/woke/frankly even mainstream Western blame on “hindu nationalists”

Khalistan was and remains a small vocal minority. But man are they organized, united, and willing to get their hands dirty.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago

https://www.google.com/amp/s/variety.com/2021/film/asia/ayushmann-khurrana-transgender-bollywood-film-chandigarh-kare-aashiqui-1235133800/amp/

Saw this yesterday with my parents. Interesting stuff. Surprised they didn’t get an actual transgender actor. It just made it hard to believe. Shocked my Dad sat through it.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago

https://theprint.in/india/how-trads-vs-raitas-plays-out-online-as-hindutva-fault-lines-emerge-after-bulli-bai-row/799866/

“The Trads (short for traditionalists) are hardcore ‘protectors’ of the Sanatana Dharma, who are seen to be highly radicalised and believers in the notion that Prime Minister Narendra Modi is ‘soft’ on Muslims and Dalits. They also espouse an upper caste supremacy.”

I see a lot of trads on Brown Pundits…

principia
principia
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav


Was just going to post the article, heh.

My impression is most people here are raitas, including yourself. BJP has been in power for 7 years and nobody expects the Congress to storm back to power, even the librandu hardcore believers.

As such, it is natural that the loose coalition of right-wingers which form the base of the BJP struggle for ideological supremacy. Raitas are basically pragmatists, who view India’s position as tenous and thus accept that significant limitations must be imposed to form a coalition against China as well as develop the domestic economy.

Trads are ideological purists who correctly understand that a long-term Faustian bargain with the US will culturally destroy India. China may be a military threat but has zero cultural impact on India’s cultural life. America does, massively, on Indian elites. And it is the elites who set the tone for the nation.

Thus the conflict is an age-old one: do you limit prosperity for cultural ballast or weaken culturally to strengthen economically. Pakistan has had similar debates where the Trads seem to have won out. That has not serviced them well, but if you go too far in the pragmatic direction, you will become a US colony/clone with all the problems associated with Westernisation, and we see this in places like Korea. Economically rich but culturally devastated; super-low fertility, rampant feminism and a general social malaise.

I find Western descriptions of Modi as somekind of evil fascist monster to be hilarious, completely at odds with how he’s seen by a substantial part of his actual base.

In other words, it’s about finding a suitable balance rather than going overboard in one direction or the other.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

@Principa

I think most trads mascaraed as Raitas because no body wants to be at the bottom of the pile , right? After all ‘Hindu’ folks who have no political power in less Hindu regions have only one avenue left. Be a trad.

Thats y most trads here, from time 2 time, say some raita stuff (the article itself points out that there is overlap b/w both groups) , so that they don’t get labeled as Trads. But scratch the surface, u will see the whole ‘Modi is a pussy’, ‘Why no UCC, CAA, NRC’, ‘BJP is left of Congress’ etc tumble out.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

There are at least 2 sets of trads, the Casteist and the economic. The caste trads assumed ppl voting for bjp automatically meant that trads would be back in charge and lording it over. These folks talk about 80% being Hindus but always advocate for their narrow sectional interests. This set is very susceptible to false flag operators from congress. I would not be surprised if the core operation is funded by Congress. For e.g. they were kvetching about modi calling Savitri bai Phule the first woman teacher 🤦‍♂️.
Most OBCs voting for bjp just want a share of power + they see cultural alignment with bjp.
The economic trads have similar delusions about what voting for bjp means. They assume people want 80s style Reaganism and Thatcherism imported to India. Not sure if they realize that kind of free market fundamentalism is what lead to most manufacturing being offshored to china. Recently I saw a tweet from harsh mudusudan about wanting school choice in India 🤦‍♂️. It made me doubt his other economic prescriptions. If you look back at his and other mantri guy, 2 years back they were going Gaga over gio coming up with their own phone OS + AI technology. Turns out mota Bhai is just going to sell a rebranded google phone 🤣.
Again most OBCs want good jobs with decent social safety nets. They also have a instinctive distrust of monopolies + crony capitalism. Don’t care if cat is black or white.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhumiputra

“Again most OBCs want good jobs with decent social safety nets.”

If nothing, we can at least learn from the Chinese that all these cultural wars/ Biswaguru dreams can wait till we become rich.

I have discussed caste trads, but on economic trads, they are even bigger jokers than caste trads. At least the caste trads are unapologetic about their views. But economic trads are mostly pussies. The farm laws exhibited it as such. Throughout the whole farm law pushback, they either scurried off to their burrows, and worse still wrote articles abt how it was the worst law possible (even while supporting the same law during previous regimes) . Now when the laws are repealed they have come out of their holes, singing paeans of the dead law, and how Modi has lost the growth narrative, etc.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Like who? Don’t see any sort of upper caste supremacist feelings here. No one shits on dalits. If anything, the mistreatment of more AASI heavy people is pointed out repeatedly. And radical Islam is called out, not just simply Islam.

Modi’s softness is called put more on classical liberal norms. He hasn’t pushed the UCC, he backed down on farmer reforms, and he continues to back down on a lot of econ liberalization. People will still vote for him because there don’t seem to be any alternatives who are not radical idealogy apologists, caste dividers, & pseudo secular woke naxalites.

principia
principia
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

I agree warlock. I am not a supporter of casteism that some hardcore Trads push, and I abhor misogyny. You can very reasonably claim that Modi has folded like a cheap suit since 2019 on purely classical liberal grounds as you noted.

I find “Modi right or wrong” types to be baffling personally, almost like they have higher loyalty to a personality than to a set of ideas. Reminds me of the MAGA cultists…

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

No average voter is ever “Modi right or wrong”. The vast majority of people including raitas know he is best bet.

Neither has he folded since 2019. Two core issues , the Ram temple and 370 was done in his first 2 years of re-election. If that means folding, i don’t know what folding means. On every other parameter he has done exactly what every other PM would have done.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Even on economy, he brought about ibc and gst on the advice of economic trads which are in the right direction but have not delivered all the benefits touted. For gst, the trads complain that rollout was messy and rates are high. Did the experts not anticipate this when the rates are determined by consensus across all state governments?
I think the reason there hasn’t been a spurt in blue collar jobs is the friction between the capital and labor, exacerbated by our peculiar caste based networks which have most of the capital. This same dynamic is present in US and other western democracies where capital +Pmc do not inhabit the same reality as blue collar working class. In India, we have trads asking for a free hand in acquiring land , hire/fire labor etc but not ready to share any upside.
How many Indian companies are ready to offer RSUs or ESOPs while asking for relaxed labor regulations?

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago

this article on Sikhs, Arya Samaj and RSS
https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/rss-and-sikhs-defining-a-religion-and-how-their-relationship-has-evolved-6075272/
is very informative for those of us wondering about the roots of this friction.

GauravL
Editor
2 years ago

Desi dudes – Saurav-Bhimrao-Ugra-Warlock and co
What side are you on the Trad V Raita fights ?

Trads seem to think Raitas have infiltrated media houses and are demeaning Trads.
Also Bharadwaj is now a Trad apparently 😀

Did anyone read that literal ShitStorm by that toxic handle Ceterpius something

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

‘What side are you on the Trad V Raita fights ?’

LOL, What is ur guess, Lele Bhau?

Also Bharadwaj always stuck me as Trad.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/8/indian-state-is-afraid-of-strong-women-activist-safoora-zargar

No. They Indian state fears radical terrorism and its sympathizers, whether they be women or men. But Al Jihada draws no distinction as usual.

Prats
Prats
2 years ago

Some random musings:

1.
There’s a Hyderabad based company called Godi Energy that has started manufacturing NMC chemistry lithium ion cells. This is quite impressive.

My company is in conversation with them for some unrelated project.
Every time I have to talk about them, I end up saying ‘Godi Media’ instead of ‘Godi Energy’.

I blame Twitter for this. I might get in trouble one day.

——

2.
It seems K-pop is huge among Indian females 25 or below. I had no idea what BTS is till a few months back. I feel old.

Even my maid’s daughters (between 8 to 12 years) from back when I was in Bangalore post WhatsApp stories about these Korean boy bands.

I used to buy them books to get them into reading. Tried everything from Mahabharata related comics to Harry Potter. In both Hindi and English. The only book they ever actually ended up sticking with was a collection of Calvin and Hobbes comics.

——

3.
There’s an old friend I am not in touch with anymore, who I know for a fact used to abuse his ex-wife.
His parents were even more vicious towards her. He’s pretty vengeful towards her even after the divorce.

I recently found out that that guy is now on dating apps and puts his gender pronouns (he/him) in his bio.

This is why I find it hard to take woke people on face value.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Prats

“This is why I find it hard to take woke people on face value.”

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/arts-and-culture/decoupled-writer-manu-joseph-on-why-his-protagonist-is-anti-woke

‘A woke man is a person who is so removed from decency that he has to make bad conjectures about what decency might be. Woke-dom is the overcompensation of an unremarkable jerk for his moral or ethical mediocrity. That is why you will find that most wokes so love the world but are very unkind to their own family or their lovers or the people who care for them.’

principia
principia
2 years ago
Reply to  Prats

There’s an old friend I am not in touch with anymore, who I know for a fact used to abuse his ex-wife.
I recently found out that that guy is now on dating apps and puts his gender pronouns (he/him) in his bio.
This is why I find it hard to take woke people on face value.

I find personal character to be evenly distributed across the entire political spectrum. It’s about finding decent people and just ignore the politics. That, to me, is probably the best approach to life.

principia
principia
2 years ago
principia
principia
2 years ago

Remember the woke Hindu academic woman who got exposed as having a RAW father? And her book got cancelled as a result? Well, she just doubled down and threw her entire culture and nation under the bus.

https://twitter.com/TheVAGLouder/status/1480909088921776138

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

I just threw up in my mouth.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

“ Well, she just doubled down and threw her entire culture and nation under the bus.“

That’s pretty standard for Indians in both india and American academia. And to some extent in less Hindu regions.

principia
principia
2 years ago

Some good news. India on track to have nearly half of worldwide phone mfg.

charts: https://twitter.com/c_aashish/status/1480908985423351811

full article: https://t.co/XtF2iiE8Si

Modi govt got hounded by neoliberals for using state funds to do industrial policy. But the East Asian experience (and prior to them, Germany, USA etc) shows that you cannot escape using the state to industrialise.

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

The link does not provide any data about India’s share in global manufacturing exports over time. WB data says that India’s merchandise exports have stayed at roughly the same levels since 2011. The headline claim is hard to take seriously.

Neoliberals will criticize silly schemes like PLI and with good reason. The government is taking the hard earned surplus from remittances and IT sector and handing it over to corporations struggling to turn a profit. These corps in turn are setting up fly by night operations to assemble components manufactured elsewhere.

The world does not need two factories. There simply isnt enough demand.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

I don’t know we are throwing much money on PLI. Seems more like the major part of the scheme is tax rebates. The govt seems to be putting little money upfront. Or matches what the corporation puts in. At least that what i get from superficially reading the schemes.

Also most of the PLI are in labor intensive fields. So should we really judge these schemes only on how much revenue they generate? I mean , if nothing these companies would keep large pool of folks occupied.

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

With PLI, the government is paying corporations to manufacture certain goods in India (through direct payments, subsidies, tax exemptions, etc).

I think we grossly overestimate the level of unemployment in India. For the foreseeable future, the vast mass of Indians females will not join the workforce, definitely not for labor intensive work. There is no way Indian families are giving up garam roti and bacche for a few extra rupees. Women will work only if the compensation is really substantial (IT, government service etc).

The government should be working on getting our vocational workers visas to work in Japan, Korea and other countries with a desperate labor shortage. This will lead to a direct increase in people’s incomes rather than work with these near zero margin assembly corps.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Considering recent change regarding Immigration, I see it a hard sell.

I mean the world might not need more factories, but countries are more sure that they need less immigrants.

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Country’s dont want immigrants, but they need workers. Short term worker visas are very much on the negotiating table. We need to get our people in before other countries.

Sumit
Sumit
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Why not incentivize these companies to build factories in India?

Roy
Roy
2 years ago

The difference between an Indian shill for the Anglo Zionist empire and a journalist who cares about the truth on the events in Kazakhstan.

https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/understanding-the-eurasian-turmoil-7716710/

https://www.unz.com/pescobar/after-kazakhstan-the-color-revolution-era-is-over/

principia
principia
2 years ago
Reply to  Roy

Roy, you have a consistently high standard of posting and just wanted to you know my appreciation. KUTGW.

Roy
Roy
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

Thank you.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna893701

Wow 22% latino millennials identify as lgbtq+

principia
principia
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

The word “Latinx” didn’t come out of the blue.

IsThisReal
IsThisReal
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna893701

Wow 22% latino millennials identify as lgbtq+

If you were to survey these people after they’re 35+, would the results be the same (more or less) or wildly different?

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
principia
principia
2 years ago

Elon Musk and the Indian Govt are tussling again.

https://twitter.com/szarabi/status/1481492889603837952

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago

Saw the comments on PLI upstairs. PLI’s twin monetary and industrial policy together.

Higher exports drive FX earnings which in turn subsidize imports. Impact on the rupee is one of a stabilizing force – which can save the RBI in terms of using reserves to prop up a depreciating rupee.

The rupee will remain at the same level, say 70 to the USD, whether India has a higher or lower quantum volume of goods export. But the reserves used by RBI for stabilization mechanisms will be lower.

This is good macro-economic and monetary prescription for a country that has a large import bill (and trade deficit). Kudos to Nirmala Sitharaman and Piyush Goyal for driving this correctly. There has been a massive impact in the white goods sector.

PLI’s do not aim to India the “second factory for the world”. They are initally aiming to be the “factory for India’s domestic consumption”. This is what Ambani Senior did in the 1980s with India’s synthetic textiles.

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

“There has been a massive impact in the white goods sector.”

Data ? From the WB data, India’s exports have remained around the same level as 2012. Imports rose from 2014 to 2019, despite a slowdown in economic growth.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

Look at the manufacturing capacities being operationalised by all washing machine, LED and AC makers. Some are moving capacities from Vietnam and Thailand to here (as greenfield ventures)

Also R&D investment on flow pumps for exchangers. These will drive an ecosystem creation.

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

Right, so where is the data beyond rhetoric ? I noticed a slight up tick in FDI from South Korea and Japan, but its nowhere near substantial.

Regarding manufacturing for domestic consumption, we dont have much of a domestic market. Rates of washing machine ownership in India are lower than in Pakistan. Disposable incomes are low in India because families have to spend a larger proportion of their incomes (which are low to begin with) on health and education.

PLI has also made no noticeable impact on employment.
https://www.mayin.org/ajayshah/MEDIA/2022/middle_india.html
“The number of persons working has been broadly stable from 2015 onwards, while the number of persons of working age has grown steadily.”

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago
Reply to  Vikram

This is not going to be a laboratory titre experiment that takes 10 minutes to yield results!!

The macro-economic reasoning is sound, industry and global reception is good, actions on the ground (greenfield proposals) are visible. This is the “1991 STPI” moment that turned India into a IT/ITeS hub.

In total about 2 lakh crores invested in 10 sectors….the sums are not humongous, in fact compared to MNREGA outlays, these are peanuts.

Ritesh
Ritesh
2 years ago

I was secular once. 2008 Mumbai was shock to me i remember i couldnot get over that for many days. Then i embarked on studying history. I studied Will Durant, Elliot Dawson, Sikh history (half family is sikh), KS Laal etc in details. I studied Gurbachan Singh Talib’s book on partition and it was so all shocking. Now after all these years i still am unable to get over with what i have read. I must say a muslim name draws anger inside me but i know there must be good people there too those who dont subscribe to all things of Islam. As Razib, i admire his work. I however, would wish that if they had done all complete population exchange in 1947, there would have been less problems. But it is what it is
Thanks

Prats
Prats
2 years ago

A couple of weeks ago, there was some discussion on here about how Indians make for good managers in the US but do not start companies or whatnot.

There’s some data now.

For a sample of 1,078 founders of 500 US unicorns (valuation of > $1 billion) 44% of the founders were non-US born. Out of this the highest number was from India at 90.

Next come Israel, Canada, UK, China at 52, 42, 31, and 27 respectively.

Considering the ease of getting visas from the next three and from most European countries, I’d say Indians have put up a pretty decent number.

I think we should retire these old arguments about Indian-Americans being some sort of lackeys who only make for good managers after the initial hard work has been done.

The only reason that seems to be the case is because the American visa system is hell-ish.

Was just recently talking to a friend who went to the US for an MBA. He wanted to start a company but had to take up a job at Big Tech because of visa uncertainty. On the other hand, some of his European classmates did end up starting up.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ilyavcandpe_unicorns-venturecapital-entrepreneurship-activity-6887418859096285184-Al2t

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Why didn’t he try to move back to India and start a company? I see a lot of people in this situation, who would rather be in the US in second (or lower) choice professions with all the immigration uncertainties that entails and being far away from their aging family members (a risk, especially during pandemic times, is that one won’t be allowed to travel to see their dying parents, as happened with a friend). Why?

principia
principia
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

I see a lot of people in this situation, who would rather be in the US in second (or lower) choice professions with all the immigration uncertainties that entails and being far away from their aging family members (a risk, especially during pandemic times, is that one won’t be allowed to travel to see their dying parents, as happened with a friend). Why?

Because India’s per capita GDP is 30X lower than America’s? Seems pretty self-evident. Also, there are non-material factors at play that make some people want to move. Everything from cleaner air, less corruption to not being judged for their every move by their extended family etc.

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

My earlier question was rhetorical in part, though I guess I should not have targeted it at the OP. I know all about the differences between the two countries, believe me. I lived in the US for a decade before moving back to India, and adjusting to daily life here was hard.

I suppose I was trying to make a political point as subtext, which is that people who choose to live in the US or other rich country (because whatever struggles they face there will pale in comparison to what they will face should they move back to India) somehow don’t seem to prioritize those quality-of-life improvements in India (and in our political process) that would incentivize them to move back. Instead, they seem to obsess more about hot button cultural/nationalistic issues of the kinds that have gotten Modi his two victories (yes, 2014 too). In my opinion, and I have stated so in comments here for years, is that the NRI influence on our election process has therefore not turned out to be a beneficial one.

Prats
Prats
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

@Pandit Brown
Why didn’t he try to move back to India and start a company?

Because he wanted to escape India. Principia answered part of it.

The other thing is that he’s Muslim. One of the rare ones who was initially a Modi supporter. He tried working as a policy consultant in Yogi’s government but got disillusioned and decided to leave for good.

I’ve had arguments with him in the past when he’s said stuff like “he’s disgusted by Indian society” with me trying to defend the country. Now we’ve made peace with the fact that our pov’s on this issue are different.

I used to think it was mainly because of Hindutva. But he’s also been having trouble with his family accepting his girlfriend for marriage because of Shia-Sunni issue. So there’s something deeper to it than just religion.

And he does seem to have developed some typical NRI tendencies – “You don’t get enough in return for your taxes in India”, “there are no systems and processes here” etc.

I know folks who’ve returned back to start companies. But majority do not come back. Life is just too easy for you if you live in Bay Area/Seattle, earn 6-figures, go out in nature every weekend.
You don’t want to come back to deal with Delhi smog or Bangalore traffic.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago
Reply to  Prats

“go out in nature every weekend”
Bay Area trails are full of Indians. Old ones, new ones, families, solos, mixed-race-couples, mtn-bikers, runners, … Indians are by far the largest skin color present.

A few weeks ago while on Mission Peak trail near Fremont I met this Indian guy (<5 yrs in US) hang-gliding with his own equipment, in Seattle I once sailed and watched whales in a small boat with another similar Indian guy. Having spent many long train journeys in the late teens and early twenties sitting on the floor by the smelly, overflowing toilets of Orissa Sampark Kranti and Awadh Express I can't think of good 'material' reasons anyone would want to go back. Life in India sucks.

Vikram
2 years ago
Reply to  Prats

“Life is just too easy for you if you live in Bay Area/Seattle, earn 6-figures, go out in nature every weekend.”

I find life here rather dull. My in-laws (from Delhi) liked it for the first 2 weeks, but are now dangerously bored.

Salaries are low unless you work in one of the FAANG companies. A 100K salary here is worth 50K where we moved from. Food options are *very* limited, apart from South Indian options.

If you move to the US, I would recommend NYC area or Austin. In recent times, outside the autonomous driving/flying space, there seem to be more software engineering jobs in the North-East.

Ugra
Ugra
2 years ago

For your earlier question upstairs – I see the trad and rayta emergence post-2017 as a maturation of the Indian non-left-liberal ecosystem. Before Modi, they were living in a 10 by 10 chawl without any privacy for arguments or fights. Everyone would silently fart in a corner with others pretending not to take notice. Then Modi came and did three major things –

1. Skilfully maneouvered the RJB issue through political and legal minefields. Put temple construction on steroids.

2. Stopped the 1 bombing-per-week in Indian cities. He even responded to the harassment attacks on military personnel (Pathankot, Uri, Pulwama) with counter-moves.

3. Scrapped Art 370 with no regard for diplomatic niceties or constitutional compartments or strategic blowbacks.

These 3 things caused the Indian non-left non-liberal crowd to leave their chawl and move into comfortable gated enclaves. Now they could have independent voices and the freedom to maneuver.

Trads want consolidation of gains.
(freeing temples from government control, decolonizing judiciary, conservative economic policies – junk MNREGA, oppose more American/Chinese access to markets etc)

Raytas want more sallies into deeper enemy territory.
(end reservation, amend history text books, Ghar Wapsi, prevent love jihad, use Art 356 like water on States, throw Bollywood under the bus, react to negative stereotypes of Hinduism in ads/netflix etc)

So this is basically a problem of plenty – as in – now we have the hammer, we can see nails everywhere.

I thinks Trads are operating at an abstract level with strategic concepts while Raytas are the unwashed infantry who want to shoot at anything that moves.

Meanwhile, Modi is sitting cross-legged in that Himalayan Cave with an inscrutable face………

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

That’s not how trads and raytas are…

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
principia
principia
2 years ago

Cool minidoc on India’s space ecosystem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vil1U6zJ4Os

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago

https://mobile.twitter.com/KanchanGupta/status/1482612696201641986
Scary campaign ad from SP. Is this normal bakchodi or SP cadre have internalized this level of hate?

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhumiputra

Nothing out of the ordinary. Before the mobile revolution, most of these things were swept under the carpet, but folks living in UP know what SP really stands for, and not the ‘progressive’ messiah BJP baiters want to portray it as.

Prats
Prats
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

but folks living in UP know what SP really stands for, and not the ‘progressive’ messiah BJP baiters want to portray it as.

I have seen progressive fans of Lalu and Mayawati.
First time hearing of Mulayam as the messiah. Where do I find these people?

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Not mulayam but betaji

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago

What do folks think about this: https://twitter.com/lfrayer/status/1482399169071521792?

The lady in question is getting the usual flack from the usual suspects for being racist, but honestly, when I saw that picture of the railway line in LA with trash strewn all over, my reaction was the same as hers.

I lived in LA for several years and drove around extensively, and don’t recall this level of deterioration. It’s sad if it’s come to this now. Over 90% of places I would visit always looked clean and orderly when I used to live there in the oughts.

On the contrary, in India, even today (despite what the Swacch Bharat promoters would have me believe), copious amounts of trash is never far away. I literally have to walk a few yards out of my apartment complex when the sidewalks (if they are still paved) become unwalkable because of overgrowth, stink of urine, and trash. I have to drive maybe 10 minutes in any direction from my house to find the side of the road used as a landfill by the garbage collectors. What would have been a pleasant park-like space is completely ruined, and stinking to boot. And this is Bangalore, not some podunk town in Bihar.

I haven’t been to a railway station since Covid. Before that, from what I saw, the authorities had (commendably) taken steps to keeping the station and the tracks clean. But the moment the train pulled out of the station environs, you would see trash strewn around. At least this is what I saw in the stations I used to frequent.

principia
principia
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

@Pandit Brown

Someone on Twitter said it best: Indians only seem to have two modes of reactions to white people: adoration or rage of the spurned. Both stem from the same instinct: a deep-seated desire to impress and be validated.

You can see this even in China, where there was recent outrage over a woman model who was selling some food snacks in an ad. Her “crime”? Her eyes were “too slanted”, and the ad was castigated for playing into Western stereotypes of East Asians. The model herself noted that she was born that way and there is nothing un-natural about having slanted eyes as her, but this speaks to eurocentric ideals of oval eyes being the norm.

I think – and hope – that once China and India become more wealthy and self-assured, that these minor complexes will fade away. That in turn should raise the overall level of debate and remove this kind of thin-skinned insecurity. My guess is that India would get there faster, because even if it is poorer it also seems to be more culturally self-confident than China appears to be.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  principia

@pandit brown and @principia,
I agree with you on the overreaction of online crowd.
But I detect a variation of the “republicans pounce” theme in your and lot of others critique of the online hindutva crowd.
For starters, An example of “ republicans pounce “ theme is democrats make a mistake. The nyt, cnn, msnbc crowd report on the republican reaction/over reaction rather than discuss the original issue.
In this case, what the reporter did was equivalent to trump’s hellhole countries comment. I am pretty sure she has/would have a virtue signaled her displeasure at trump’s comment.
Re the actual scenario about cleanliness in India, yes the ratio of dirty and filthy places in India is higher but is trending in the right direction whereas it is trending in the wrong direction in US. The main critique of msm is that they exclusively focus on negative stories to keep their narrative. And that this narrative is in service of the agenda to keep India as captive market and cheap labor pool for western countries.

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  Bhumiputra

The main critique of msm is that they exclusively focus on negative stories to keep their narrative.

I agree with you that westerners only seem to highlight the worst looking and most chaotic places in India, which is a skewed representation. I think the reason for this is that even “normal” places that aren’t where the super-rich live (like “farmhouses” in the NCR) are quite shabby by anybody’s standards. (I mentioned what my personal daily experience is like above.) In not just the West but in medium income countries (like China, Eastern Europe, etc.), the “middle”of society tends to acquire a level of neatness and orderliness that one associates with affluence, and which clearly demarcates it from the truly poor parts. In India, because the middle and the poor live symbiotically and often cheek-by-jowl that we haven’t gotten to this stage yet. I hope I’m making sense?

But, as you and principia say, perhaps it is a matter of time.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

East Asia and Eastern Europe are ethnically homogeneous and “authoritarian”, so governments can impose hard and fast run rules.
In case of India, the fact that middle and low income groups stay close together is net positive and major reason for the lower per capita crime. Not sure it is a good idea for us to mimic the west in that respect.
The Swacha Bharat campaign needs to be complemented with local governments devolution (see below).
More fundamentally, we need to focus on childhood nutrition to raise cognition levels and income levels. Unfortunately our economists only notice the symptom of low productivity and instead of recommendations to address the root cause, ask us to adopt a consumption driven and services focused economic model.
Coming back to western media, their bad faith is exemplified by them not just focusing on negative aspects but misrepresenting even the good initiatives of the government as driven by fascist tendencies.

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

@Bhumiputra:

East Asian and Eastern European countries can vary in their degrees of authoritarianism. If authoritarianism was the reason for their relatively higher orderliness, then their public spaces would look even better than they are. I believe the nature of public spaces reflects the desires of the public and not that of the state.

In case of India, the fact that middle and low income groups stay close together is net positive and major reason for the lower per capita crime.

I confess I don’t see any virtue in this arrangement, though likely many share your view. You may be right (though I’m not entirely convinced) that this arrangement keeps violent crime down, though other kinds of petty crime and fraud are rampant in India to an extent not seen in the West. Also, Western crime rates are highly skewed by the US, which is an outlier in terms of violent crime.

To the contrary, I believe that this symbiosis has made people too dependent on cheap labor. People get soft, they don’t learn how to do simple chores and take personal responsibility, which build character. Their children grow up very spoiled and relatively less-equipped to handle the challenges of adulthood. Finally, this engenders a kind of feudal system which makes political and cultural change extremely slow. (Again, I regard this as a vice, others may regard it as a virtue.) In a Western society, there is both incentive not to be poor (you live visibly in degraded circumstances) and ample opportunity to get out of that state if you are.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

“they don’t learn how to do simple chores and take personal responsibility, which build character”

+1

Indians are not good at making, cleaning, repairing, and organizing everyday stuff by themselves, are not hands-on, lack of initiative shows in things like how we dress or take care of our bodies.

I don’t foresee Indians ever becoming hands on like the Americans or the Dutch but things will obviously improve when manual labor costs escalate and when costs of better tools (stuff like dishwasher, better cleaning supplies, better multi tools…) become accessible to Indians. Think about how washermen are going extinct with washing machines becoming common.

I know this well off Indian guy in America who repairs cars in his free time for pleasure and flips them for meagre money.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

On tools:

Indian aversion to do one time investments on good tools is weird. Makes them extra averse to DIY.

Most houses barely have one plier, a couple of screwdrivers, a hammer and a few wrenches at most. It is hard to do much with those. The civil works are also not DIY-friendly. No Indian bicycles have quick release levers for tires, all because some poor bike repair guy would happily work extra hard.

The worst of all are the shitty knives, Indian kitchen knives are just awful. People get away with this because desperately poor folks do all the hard but ultimately useless work.

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

@Bhimrao:

I echo everything you say. I’m not sure why people keep using flimsy kitchen knives, but the reason for not using more machinery may be because Indians, especially older people, are just not used to mechanization as much as people in richer countries. I’ve seen people (including in my family) get quite uncomfortable around technology and often resort to a low-tech option if available.

Brown Pundits