173 thoughts on “Open Thread – 01/07/2022 – Brown Pundits”

  1. There is a phrase in Urdu –

    न ख़ुदा ही मिला न विसाल-ए-सनम, न इधर के हुए न उधर के हुए।

    Woke Hindus in a nutshell.

  2. “Dont give an Inch”
    Q – “What about human rights abuse in India?”
    A – Lies, exaggerations and misreporting. Next question !

  3. As such, we affirm their claims that Dr. Varma’s work has produced extraordinary harm to the subjects of her research and to the anti-occupation struggles of Kashmiris, something that compounds other ongoing violence and trauma caused by the Indian settler state.

    It is hard to put into words my contempt for US “liberalism”. It’s basically identity politics olympics on steroids with meaningless phrases thrown in. The worst part is many Hindu diaspora types try to play that game, especially 2nd gen and more specifically 2nd gen women.

    Some threads ago I voiced my pessimism about Asian-American activism and part of the problem I highlighted was that there is lack of asabiyah and too many buy into the woke ideology. Both issues are present here. They say the revolution always ends up eating its own children and that’s what we are seeing here.

    1. “ Some threads ago I voiced my pessimism about Asian-American activism and part of the problem I highlighted was that there is lack of asabiyah“

      Again , I wonder where u are getting these ideas from..

      1. @Saurav

        The UK Hindu community, which is often viewed as more conservative than its US counter-part, is split on Modi:


        The non-Hindu community *hate* Modi. Weak Asabiyah. As I noted previously, even “liberal” Jews will kvetch but ultimately support Israel no matter how long it is ruled by far-right Jewish nationalists. That’s not the case here.

        UK Hindus are split even on core Indian national security objectives, like allowing international “observers” to go into Kashmir.


        As for the US, only half of Indian-Americans are Hindus. And as you go outside the Indian-American community, it becomes harder to knit a large “Asian” community together. Razib has posted evidence that Indian-Americans get promoted twice the rate of white Americans and something like 4X more often than East Asians.

        So when East Asians complain about the “bamboo ceiling”, it’s not something Indians in America can relate to. Oversexualisation of East Asian women also strikes me as less of a relatable issue for Indian girls. Plus the gender ratio in IR marriages is quite even between Indians and whites, unlike East Asians and whites. So a major source of cultural friction between East Asian (males) and white (males) isn’t present.

        There are many other things you could talk about. But to sum up, there are splits within the Indian community due to far greater diversity of religion than in India (Hindus only being 50% of Indian-Americans) and too different experiences in the diaspora between Indians and East Asians. You add woke ideology, increasing discrimination of affirmative action (which woke believers must uphold) and it’s not hard to see my pessimism.

          1. Modi is already in the same league of demonization as Trump and Bolsonaro. The only saving grace is he practices message discipline and does not shoot his mouth off. I have had normie americans ask about Modi and not in a flattering way. I would not be surprised if survey responders are masking their true preferences.
            UP Hindus need more asabiya and that too for their own good, rather than piss around on others. The current PB issue looks more like latest iteration of PB vs UP issue starting with Anglo Sikh wars in 1840s. It is interesting pattern that whenever there is a full majority government in Delhi backed by UP/Bihar seats, as was the case in early 70s and now, the PB issue starts boiling. This time, Jats have switched sides and SP is acting like willing quislings 🙁 sad. The entire GT Road belt needs to come to its senses.

          2. “UP Hindus need more asabiya”

            Are u kidding? Bro, we are the reason the current Hindu nationalist govt is in power, in the first place. Before asking us, lets have the Hindus of other areas to exhibit a bit more Asabiya. Jats are 2-3 percent of UP pops, no need to exaggerate their influence.

            As i have said before, its high time and we have carried the ‘Hindu’ cross on our back, for far too long.

  4. @principia and others:

    Not sure why this conversation has devolved into a pro- or anti-Modi discussion. The Kashmir issue has always been a bipartisan third rail of Indian politics. It’s not like Modi was the first to take a hardline position in Kashmir; that was begun by Nehru himself. All political parties, including the Congress, and almost all of Indian society, are for integrating Kashmir into India, whether by hook or by crook. The people who are protesting and making woke arguments here seem to be Kashmiri expats in the US: big surprise!

    One can be anti-Modi (or just not a Modi fan) while still favoring a hardline position on Kashmir (including the Article 370 revocation).

    1. b/c from 1999 through 2014, India faced with a series of terrorist attacks throughout India without visible retaliation. At least the NDA made some noise about boycott and parakram etc. During UPA years, Congress ecosystem encouraged us to lie on our back and enjoy it while pursuing Aman Ki asha. To rub salt in our wounds, UPA encouraged bogey of Hindu terror.

      1. “ To rub salt in our wounds, UPA encouraged bogey of Hindu terror. “

        And “Hindus”voted in even greater numbers for them in 2009 then they did in 2004.

        Asabiya, anyone ?

      2. You must be really young, to not know about or under-emphasize what happened before ’99.

        Nothing happened between 1999-2014 that was worse than the insurgency that started in the late 80s and was quite virulent in the early 90s (Kargil and the 2008 Mumbai attacks were bad, but what happened around 1990 left a much bigger impression on my mind). It was the Narasimha Rao govt that managed to get the situation under control, at a time when Pakistan was much more powerful and influential in the world with respect to us than they have ever been in the 21st century.

        Yes, the Congress govt was limp in its response to the 2008 attacks, but then so was the BJP govt during the Kandahar hijacking. On the flipside, the situation in Kashmir never looked better than in the years surrounding 2010, terrorism was basically gone, tourism was booming, etc. Whatever strategy the govt had was working at the time.

        1. I am aware of what happened before ’99 and referenced it in my observation about how PB issue flares up whenever there is a strong central government backed by UP/BH seats. But IG/RG congress (their missteps are another topic of discussion) till 91, PVNR Congress through ’99 and SG congress post ’96 are 3 different beasts. Another categorization error you make is comparing Kandahar response with 2008 response. While ABV rightly gets criticized for not disabling the plane in Amritsar, once the place left India and relatives were wailing in front of TVs there were no good options. The 2008 response has to be compared with Uri and Pulwama response. People rightly recognize lack of will/intent vs lack of options.
          It is curious that you admit that the terror attacks of 2000s were bad but pivot to say things were good in Kashmir around 2010. No surprise. India was being bled all over, people were making money in the global boom with whatever means (ethical and unethical), Congress ATF was hunting the ghost of Hindu terror. But what matters is that Kashmiris were able to peacefully practice Kashmiriyat at the Indian tax payer expense and those of Indian soliders lives.
          This kind of situation is why I keep referencing Thucydides quote–
          A society that separates its scholars and warriors will have its fighting done by fools and thinking done by cowards.

        2. “Yes, the Congress govt was limp in its response to the 2008 attacks, but then so was the BJP govt during the Kandahar hijacking. ”

          I don’t understand how these two scenarios are same, in one case Indian citizens died on the streets of an Indian city. In the other case Indian govt bend to save its citizens on foreign soil.

          The closest comparison of Kandahar hijacking is the Rubiya Sayed episode.

          1. 2008 came as a surprise. What you are asking for is proper retaliation after al those killings occurred, and if so, I agree with you that, well “something” should have been done.

            The hijacking on the other hand, by the time it got to Kandahar, gave enough time for “something” (other than the eventual handoff) to have been prepared. To be fair to the govt, probably they wouldn’t have been able to pull off an Entebbe, but then you can’t single out a political party for blame for that.

  5. Street power in India

    Maharashtra – Shiv Sena
    Tamilnadu – Assorted Dravidians and DK
    Kerala – CPI apparatchiks
    Punjab – All shades of Khalistanis
    Bihar – Yadav/Muslim Bloc
    West Bengal – Whichever regime is in power
    Telangana – AIMIM/TRS
    Jammu Kashmir – Islamists
    Haryana/West UP – Jats

    If you notice the groups and their political affiliation, you will notice that Congress has alliances with almost every one except Punjab & Maharashtra.

    Hard power in India flows to whoever enforces the street. For some reason, this escapes the BJP brand of politics. It is still a coalition of the numerous weak or the silent majority.

    The more one is inclined to think that a ecosystem is made up of only intellectuals and media, the more they tend to kvetch. BJP and Modi are suffering from a surfeit of such supporters.

    1. For a long time, the powers that be expected the foot soldiers to play their varna/karma assigned role for free and fade away for their superiors to enjoy the political/social/economic fruits. Their only consolation prize was sporadic social acceptance wherein they got a temporary certificate of Hindu-ness.
      Things have changed a little bit in last 7 years. Whether this is a tactical change or long term directional change, only time will tell.

      1. @Bhumiputra

        This is true. OBCs played foot soldiers to Congress so that the Gangetic/Delhi elites could kneel at leisure to secular/communal causes. Congress never pandered to its foot soldiers – good boss move!! But hurt itself in the long run.

  6. US is emerging as the hotbed of islamo Marxist alliance. Recent deplatforming of Dr Malone- creator of mRNA. Do watch Joe Rogan’s podcast with him. He explains it beautifully how Global Pharma, Global Health alliances are compromised.

  7. Lalu Yadav’s elder son Tej Pratap Yadav now has a YouTube channel.

    This is hilarious in a very dark way.

    Some guy: “Meri behen ka apahran ho gaya hai”
    [My sister has been kidnapped]

    TPY (to the camera): “Jaisa aap dekh sakte hain. Mere paas log apni samasya lekar aate hain.”
    [As you can see, people come to me with their problems]

    This is the kind of comedy that’d put even Ricky Gervais to shame.


  8. Idle thought:
    Aam Aadmi Party has the wokest most urban base of any party in the country.
    At want point will supporters point out that it’s sexist to use the masculine ‘Aadmi’?

    What do you think their new name will be?

    I think they’d want to keep the acronym intact. So they’ll go with ‘Aam Adhikar Party’ or something instead of ‘Aam Insaan Party’.

    1. Not just woke. They are the dumbest youngsters you will ever come across. I support the name Aam Adamkhor Party.

  9. Random thoughts:

    Recently saw that the Hindu temple in Bay Area has a Parasnath ji idol in its pantheon. I never saw this in any temple in India. Is it common outside India?


    Re: trash in public places
    I just don’t get the apathy in Indians. Even the young Indians are so soul-less. During my college NSS camp, we were deployed to broaden a village road and fill potholes. Very few (<20 out of 400+) folks did all the work, rest just sat under trees bitching . Ditto with the school teaching or surveying deployments. Tall talk, no work, zero vitality.

    1. I find it very annoying that all these Modi fans who hang on to every word of the bullshit he spews just conveniently forget to keep surroundings clean.
      I mean these days almost all urban places have dust bins yet people insist on throwing stuff out of moving cars on the street side. Some weird pathology that’s hard to cure.

  10. @Prats

    At least Indians have reduced defecating in the open.

    Bakchod hain sab. Last year my neighbors refused to pay Rs 100/month for municipal garbage collection and just pile it up in a nearby pond.

    Can’t help them, their lives are their punishments.


    Have you seen Shark Tank India? Liked all the VCs. I found a few pitches and ideas good. Hope this show takes off.

    1. Dude I had an opposite views. All VCs were crap. I didn’t like any ideas yet. But will watch for few more episodes

      1. Bhai in reality Indian ”VCs” are much-much worse. I had low expectations to begin with and the people on the show really surprised me. The bharatpe guy even invested in that shitty electric-vehicle company.

        The Braille literacy device and smart helmet was decent. The home dialysis one was good. Yarn trading one was good.

        I also liked the wall finishing coating people’s pitch because Indian construction materials really really suck. Not saying their product would be an improvement but there is a market there.

        We are a poor, financially-conservative country of low-confidence, low-skill, low-drive people, improvements will take time. I hope this becomes what Boogie-Woogie of 90s was to Dance reality shows.

      2. Recently someone I know was very seriously considering starting a MRI center in interior/small-town Eastern India. The investment math just doesn’t work out. I have highest regards for anyone who figures out a profitable business in rural/urban-poor healthcare (or nutrition).

  11. bjp won the chandigarh mayor post. congress and akali abstained!!!. a a p was denied the prize.
    this is how they will keep a a p out of power in the assembly elections.

  12. Looking at Razib’s latest Twitter feed, it looks like the Hindutvavaadis are desperate to prove the assertions of the most desperate white nationalists that we are a low-IQ people. It seems our (Indians’) capacity for independent thought is very low; when most of these people read something Razib writes, their frog brains just shout “Muslim, Muslim, Muslim”!

    My country’s future really seems desperate. (Not that the West’s future is in great hands.)

    1. Dude I’m deplatformed by the Twitter for sharing a video where a Maulana in Bareilly said that Hindus will be wiped off. I don’t know what happened to Razib.

      1. Sorry to hear that. I hope they “platform” you back soon. I’m under no illusions about where the motivations of those who are shutting you down are coming from.

        That said, though deplatforming is (of course) bad, so is a constant stream of abuse guided toward you on Twitter, especially if it’s inaccurate. Just see what’s going on his Twitter to get an idea.

        1. I don’t think I have that many followers to begin with. The Twitter Administration replied “misinformation”. I don’t know now. Others have shared it but not blocked or deplatformed.

    2. Is this basically it?

      Razib has called some Hindutuva trolls low IQ. They associate Razib with far right groups and also Islam. The prior because they also, well on the surface, seem to value IQ, albeit for often bad reasons. Razib actually values IQ and meritocracy. The latter because they view people through the lens of perceived communal identity largely.

      Nonetheless, because the trolls are mad at Razib about something (AIT/AMT?), they make the strawman that Razib says “82” to refer to India as a stupid nation, when in reality, if he ever makes that type of remark, it is specific reference to low IQ trolls.

      In order to jab back to this perceived slight, they make bigoted remarks against Muslims and say “77,” the same IQ that is cited for Bangladesh (Razib’s parents’ homeland) in the sources that cite the Indian “82.” Then they refuse to let go and keep trolling in groups.

      1. Yeah, I think you summarized it accurately. There’s also that when Razib mentioned the 82 IQ, he was being sarcastic, but if your radar is super-sensitive to what “Muslims” are saying, you probably don’t get it, like the people who tweeted back at him.

        This is just the latest situation BTW. I think whenever he expresses an opinion that’s not popular in RW Hindu circles (like on AIT, caste, or colonialism), he gets similar crap. Other writers of his ilk get that too.

        Why am I bothered by this so much? Because I think critical-thinking and broad-mindedness is crucial to our development. More specifically, Indians will be better-served by reading (and analyzing) publications like Razib’s instead of wandering forever in WhatsApp rabbit holes.

        1. every time one of my tweets goes viral on hindu twitter it expands out to “inbred jihadi woke” stuff cuz of my name.

          these are stupid people, i don’t care. but more educated/high IQ people do it too, and i’m just over it.

          hindu nationalists can fend for themselves, i won’t defend them anymore. they’re as unpleasant as wokes overall, with obvious exceptions

    1. This is encouraging. I wish our RW Hindus can advocate and celebrate things like these rather than try to turn Hinduism into a more fanatic direction.

    1. @Saurav
      Was just going to post the article, heh.

      My impression is most people here are raitas, including yourself. BJP has been in power for 7 years and nobody expects the Congress to storm back to power, even the librandu hardcore believers.

      As such, it is natural that the loose coalition of right-wingers which form the base of the BJP struggle for ideological supremacy. Raitas are basically pragmatists, who view India’s position as tenous and thus accept that significant limitations must be imposed to form a coalition against China as well as develop the domestic economy.

      Trads are ideological purists who correctly understand that a long-term Faustian bargain with the US will culturally destroy India. China may be a military threat but has zero cultural impact on India’s cultural life. America does, massively, on Indian elites. And it is the elites who set the tone for the nation.

      Thus the conflict is an age-old one: do you limit prosperity for cultural ballast or weaken culturally to strengthen economically. Pakistan has had similar debates where the Trads seem to have won out. That has not serviced them well, but if you go too far in the pragmatic direction, you will become a US colony/clone with all the problems associated with Westernisation, and we see this in places like Korea. Economically rich but culturally devastated; super-low fertility, rampant feminism and a general social malaise.

      I find Western descriptions of Modi as somekind of evil fascist monster to be hilarious, completely at odds with how he’s seen by a substantial part of his actual base.

      In other words, it’s about finding a suitable balance rather than going overboard in one direction or the other.

      1. @Principa

        I think most trads mascaraed as Raitas because no body wants to be at the bottom of the pile , right? After all ‘Hindu’ folks who have no political power in less Hindu regions have only one avenue left. Be a trad.

        Thats y most trads here, from time 2 time, say some raita stuff (the article itself points out that there is overlap b/w both groups) , so that they don’t get labeled as Trads. But scratch the surface, u will see the whole ‘Modi is a pussy’, ‘Why no UCC, CAA, NRC’, ‘BJP is left of Congress’ etc tumble out.

        1. There are at least 2 sets of trads, the Casteist and the economic. The caste trads assumed ppl voting for bjp automatically meant that trads would be back in charge and lording it over. These folks talk about 80% being Hindus but always advocate for their narrow sectional interests. This set is very susceptible to false flag operators from congress. I would not be surprised if the core operation is funded by Congress. For e.g. they were kvetching about modi calling Savitri bai Phule the first woman teacher 🤦‍♂️.
          Most OBCs voting for bjp just want a share of power + they see cultural alignment with bjp.
          The economic trads have similar delusions about what voting for bjp means. They assume people want 80s style Reaganism and Thatcherism imported to India. Not sure if they realize that kind of free market fundamentalism is what lead to most manufacturing being offshored to china. Recently I saw a tweet from harsh mudusudan about wanting school choice in India 🤦‍♂️. It made me doubt his other economic prescriptions. If you look back at his and other mantri guy, 2 years back they were going Gaga over gio coming up with their own phone OS + AI technology. Turns out mota Bhai is just going to sell a rebranded google phone 🤣.
          Again most OBCs want good jobs with decent social safety nets. They also have a instinctive distrust of monopolies + crony capitalism. Don’t care if cat is black or white.

          1. “Again most OBCs want good jobs with decent social safety nets.”

            If nothing, we can at least learn from the Chinese that all these cultural wars/ Biswaguru dreams can wait till we become rich.

            I have discussed caste trads, but on economic trads, they are even bigger jokers than caste trads. At least the caste trads are unapologetic about their views. But economic trads are mostly pussies. The farm laws exhibited it as such. Throughout the whole farm law pushback, they either scurried off to their burrows, and worse still wrote articles abt how it was the worst law possible (even while supporting the same law during previous regimes) . Now when the laws are repealed they have come out of their holes, singing paeans of the dead law, and how Modi has lost the growth narrative, etc.

    2. Like who? Don’t see any sort of upper caste supremacist feelings here. No one shits on dalits. If anything, the mistreatment of more AASI heavy people is pointed out repeatedly. And radical Islam is called out, not just simply Islam.

      Modi’s softness is called put more on classical liberal norms. He hasn’t pushed the UCC, he backed down on farmer reforms, and he continues to back down on a lot of econ liberalization. People will still vote for him because there don’t seem to be any alternatives who are not radical idealogy apologists, caste dividers, & pseudo secular woke naxalites.

      1. I agree warlock. I am not a supporter of casteism that some hardcore Trads push, and I abhor misogyny. You can very reasonably claim that Modi has folded like a cheap suit since 2019 on purely classical liberal grounds as you noted.

        I find “Modi right or wrong” types to be baffling personally, almost like they have higher loyalty to a personality than to a set of ideas. Reminds me of the MAGA cultists…

        1. No average voter is ever “Modi right or wrong”. The vast majority of people including raitas know he is best bet.

          Neither has he folded since 2019. Two core issues , the Ram temple and 370 was done in his first 2 years of re-election. If that means folding, i don’t know what folding means. On every other parameter he has done exactly what every other PM would have done.

          1. Even on economy, he brought about ibc and gst on the advice of economic trads which are in the right direction but have not delivered all the benefits touted. For gst, the trads complain that rollout was messy and rates are high. Did the experts not anticipate this when the rates are determined by consensus across all state governments?
            I think the reason there hasn’t been a spurt in blue collar jobs is the friction between the capital and labor, exacerbated by our peculiar caste based networks which have most of the capital. This same dynamic is present in US and other western democracies where capital +Pmc do not inhabit the same reality as blue collar working class. In India, we have trads asking for a free hand in acquiring land , hire/fire labor etc but not ready to share any upside.
            How many Indian companies are ready to offer RSUs or ESOPs while asking for relaxed labor regulations?

  13. Desi dudes – Saurav-Bhimrao-Ugra-Warlock and co
    What side are you on the Trad V Raita fights ?

    Trads seem to think Raitas have infiltrated media houses and are demeaning Trads.
    Also Bharadwaj is now a Trad apparently 😀

    Did anyone read that literal ShitStorm by that toxic handle Ceterpius something

    1. ‘What side are you on the Trad V Raita fights ?’

      LOL, What is ur guess, Lele Bhau?

      Also Bharadwaj always stuck me as Trad.

  14. Some random musings:

    There’s a Hyderabad based company called Godi Energy that has started manufacturing NMC chemistry lithium ion cells. This is quite impressive.

    My company is in conversation with them for some unrelated project.
    Every time I have to talk about them, I end up saying ‘Godi Media’ instead of ‘Godi Energy’.

    I blame Twitter for this. I might get in trouble one day.


    It seems K-pop is huge among Indian females 25 or below. I had no idea what BTS is till a few months back. I feel old.

    Even my maid’s daughters (between 8 to 12 years) from back when I was in Bangalore post WhatsApp stories about these Korean boy bands.

    I used to buy them books to get them into reading. Tried everything from Mahabharata related comics to Harry Potter. In both Hindi and English. The only book they ever actually ended up sticking with was a collection of Calvin and Hobbes comics.


    There’s an old friend I am not in touch with anymore, who I know for a fact used to abuse his ex-wife.
    His parents were even more vicious towards her. He’s pretty vengeful towards her even after the divorce.

    I recently found out that that guy is now on dating apps and puts his gender pronouns (he/him) in his bio.

    This is why I find it hard to take woke people on face value.

    1. “This is why I find it hard to take woke people on face value.”


      ‘A woke man is a person who is so removed from decency that he has to make bad conjectures about what decency might be. Woke-dom is the overcompensation of an unremarkable jerk for his moral or ethical mediocrity. That is why you will find that most wokes so love the world but are very unkind to their own family or their lovers or the people who care for them.’

    2. There’s an old friend I am not in touch with anymore, who I know for a fact used to abuse his ex-wife.
      I recently found out that that guy is now on dating apps and puts his gender pronouns (he/him) in his bio.
      This is why I find it hard to take woke people on face value.

      I find personal character to be evenly distributed across the entire political spectrum. It’s about finding decent people and just ignore the politics. That, to me, is probably the best approach to life.

    1. “ Well, she just doubled down and threw her entire culture and nation under the bus.“

      That’s pretty standard for Indians in both india and American academia. And to some extent in less Hindu regions.

    1. The link does not provide any data about India’s share in global manufacturing exports over time. WB data says that India’s merchandise exports have stayed at roughly the same levels since 2011. The headline claim is hard to take seriously.

      Neoliberals will criticize silly schemes like PLI and with good reason. The government is taking the hard earned surplus from remittances and IT sector and handing it over to corporations struggling to turn a profit. These corps in turn are setting up fly by night operations to assemble components manufactured elsewhere.

      The world does not need two factories. There simply isnt enough demand.

      1. I don’t know we are throwing much money on PLI. Seems more like the major part of the scheme is tax rebates. The govt seems to be putting little money upfront. Or matches what the corporation puts in. At least that what i get from superficially reading the schemes.

        Also most of the PLI are in labor intensive fields. So should we really judge these schemes only on how much revenue they generate? I mean , if nothing these companies would keep large pool of folks occupied.

        1. With PLI, the government is paying corporations to manufacture certain goods in India (through direct payments, subsidies, tax exemptions, etc).

          I think we grossly overestimate the level of unemployment in India. For the foreseeable future, the vast mass of Indians females will not join the workforce, definitely not for labor intensive work. There is no way Indian families are giving up garam roti and bacche for a few extra rupees. Women will work only if the compensation is really substantial (IT, government service etc).

          The government should be working on getting our vocational workers visas to work in Japan, Korea and other countries with a desperate labor shortage. This will lead to a direct increase in people’s incomes rather than work with these near zero margin assembly corps.

          1. Considering recent change regarding Immigration, I see it a hard sell.

            I mean the world might not need more factories, but countries are more sure that they need less immigrants.

          2. Country’s dont want immigrants, but they need workers. Short term worker visas are very much on the negotiating table. We need to get our people in before other countries.

    1. Roy, you have a consistently high standard of posting and just wanted to you know my appreciation. KUTGW.

  15. @Vikram

    Saw the comments on PLI upstairs. PLI’s twin monetary and industrial policy together.

    Higher exports drive FX earnings which in turn subsidize imports. Impact on the rupee is one of a stabilizing force – which can save the RBI in terms of using reserves to prop up a depreciating rupee.

    The rupee will remain at the same level, say 70 to the USD, whether India has a higher or lower quantum volume of goods export. But the reserves used by RBI for stabilization mechanisms will be lower.

    This is good macro-economic and monetary prescription for a country that has a large import bill (and trade deficit). Kudos to Nirmala Sitharaman and Piyush Goyal for driving this correctly. There has been a massive impact in the white goods sector.

    PLI’s do not aim to India the “second factory for the world”. They are initally aiming to be the “factory for India’s domestic consumption”. This is what Ambani Senior did in the 1980s with India’s synthetic textiles.

    1. “There has been a massive impact in the white goods sector.”

      Data ? From the WB data, India’s exports have remained around the same level as 2012. Imports rose from 2014 to 2019, despite a slowdown in economic growth.

      1. Look at the manufacturing capacities being operationalised by all washing machine, LED and AC makers. Some are moving capacities from Vietnam and Thailand to here (as greenfield ventures)

        Also R&D investment on flow pumps for exchangers. These will drive an ecosystem creation.

        1. Right, so where is the data beyond rhetoric ? I noticed a slight up tick in FDI from South Korea and Japan, but its nowhere near substantial.

          Regarding manufacturing for domestic consumption, we dont have much of a domestic market. Rates of washing machine ownership in India are lower than in Pakistan. Disposable incomes are low in India because families have to spend a larger proportion of their incomes (which are low to begin with) on health and education.

          PLI has also made no noticeable impact on employment.
          “The number of persons working has been broadly stable from 2015 onwards, while the number of persons of working age has grown steadily.”

          1. @Vikram

            This is not going to be a laboratory titre experiment that takes 10 minutes to yield results!!

            The macro-economic reasoning is sound, industry and global reception is good, actions on the ground (greenfield proposals) are visible. This is the “1991 STPI” moment that turned India into a IT/ITeS hub.

            In total about 2 lakh crores invested in 10 sectors….the sums are not humongous, in fact compared to MNREGA outlays, these are peanuts.

  16. I was secular once. 2008 Mumbai was shock to me i remember i couldnot get over that for many days. Then i embarked on studying history. I studied Will Durant, Elliot Dawson, Sikh history (half family is sikh), KS Laal etc in details. I studied Gurbachan Singh Talib’s book on partition and it was so all shocking. Now after all these years i still am unable to get over with what i have read. I must say a muslim name draws anger inside me but i know there must be good people there too those who dont subscribe to all things of Islam. As Razib, i admire his work. I however, would wish that if they had done all complete population exchange in 1947, there would have been less problems. But it is what it is

  17. A couple of weeks ago, there was some discussion on here about how Indians make for good managers in the US but do not start companies or whatnot.

    There’s some data now.

    For a sample of 1,078 founders of 500 US unicorns (valuation of > $1 billion) 44% of the founders were non-US born. Out of this the highest number was from India at 90.

    Next come Israel, Canada, UK, China at 52, 42, 31, and 27 respectively.

    Considering the ease of getting visas from the next three and from most European countries, I’d say Indians have put up a pretty decent number.

    I think we should retire these old arguments about Indian-Americans being some sort of lackeys who only make for good managers after the initial hard work has been done.

    The only reason that seems to be the case is because the American visa system is hell-ish.

    Was just recently talking to a friend who went to the US for an MBA. He wanted to start a company but had to take up a job at Big Tech because of visa uncertainty. On the other hand, some of his European classmates did end up starting up.


    1. Why didn’t he try to move back to India and start a company? I see a lot of people in this situation, who would rather be in the US in second (or lower) choice professions with all the immigration uncertainties that entails and being far away from their aging family members (a risk, especially during pandemic times, is that one won’t be allowed to travel to see their dying parents, as happened with a friend). Why?

      1. I see a lot of people in this situation, who would rather be in the US in second (or lower) choice professions with all the immigration uncertainties that entails and being far away from their aging family members (a risk, especially during pandemic times, is that one won’t be allowed to travel to see their dying parents, as happened with a friend). Why?

        Because India’s per capita GDP is 30X lower than America’s? Seems pretty self-evident. Also, there are non-material factors at play that make some people want to move. Everything from cleaner air, less corruption to not being judged for their every move by their extended family etc.

        1. My earlier question was rhetorical in part, though I guess I should not have targeted it at the OP. I know all about the differences between the two countries, believe me. I lived in the US for a decade before moving back to India, and adjusting to daily life here was hard.

          I suppose I was trying to make a political point as subtext, which is that people who choose to live in the US or other rich country (because whatever struggles they face there will pale in comparison to what they will face should they move back to India) somehow don’t seem to prioritize those quality-of-life improvements in India (and in our political process) that would incentivize them to move back. Instead, they seem to obsess more about hot button cultural/nationalistic issues of the kinds that have gotten Modi his two victories (yes, 2014 too). In my opinion, and I have stated so in comments here for years, is that the NRI influence on our election process has therefore not turned out to be a beneficial one.

      2. @Pandit Brown
        Why didn’t he try to move back to India and start a company?

        Because he wanted to escape India. Principia answered part of it.

        The other thing is that he’s Muslim. One of the rare ones who was initially a Modi supporter. He tried working as a policy consultant in Yogi’s government but got disillusioned and decided to leave for good.

        I’ve had arguments with him in the past when he’s said stuff like “he’s disgusted by Indian society” with me trying to defend the country. Now we’ve made peace with the fact that our pov’s on this issue are different.

        I used to think it was mainly because of Hindutva. But he’s also been having trouble with his family accepting his girlfriend for marriage because of Shia-Sunni issue. So there’s something deeper to it than just religion.

        And he does seem to have developed some typical NRI tendencies – “You don’t get enough in return for your taxes in India”, “there are no systems and processes here” etc.

        I know folks who’ve returned back to start companies. But majority do not come back. Life is just too easy for you if you live in Bay Area/Seattle, earn 6-figures, go out in nature every weekend.
        You don’t want to come back to deal with Delhi smog or Bangalore traffic.

        1. “go out in nature every weekend”
          Bay Area trails are full of Indians. Old ones, new ones, families, solos, mixed-race-couples, mtn-bikers, runners, … Indians are by far the largest skin color present.

          A few weeks ago while on Mission Peak trail near Fremont I met this Indian guy (<5 yrs in US) hang-gliding with his own equipment, in Seattle I once sailed and watched whales in a small boat with another similar Indian guy. Having spent many long train journeys in the late teens and early twenties sitting on the floor by the smelly, overflowing toilets of Orissa Sampark Kranti and Awadh Express I can't think of good 'material' reasons anyone would want to go back. Life in India sucks.

        2. “Life is just too easy for you if you live in Bay Area/Seattle, earn 6-figures, go out in nature every weekend.”

          I find life here rather dull. My in-laws (from Delhi) liked it for the first 2 weeks, but are now dangerously bored.

          Salaries are low unless you work in one of the FAANG companies. A 100K salary here is worth 50K where we moved from. Food options are *very* limited, apart from South Indian options.

          If you move to the US, I would recommend NYC area or Austin. In recent times, outside the autonomous driving/flying space, there seem to be more software engineering jobs in the North-East.

  18. @GauravL

    For your earlier question upstairs – I see the trad and rayta emergence post-2017 as a maturation of the Indian non-left-liberal ecosystem. Before Modi, they were living in a 10 by 10 chawl without any privacy for arguments or fights. Everyone would silently fart in a corner with others pretending not to take notice. Then Modi came and did three major things –

    1. Skilfully maneouvered the RJB issue through political and legal minefields. Put temple construction on steroids.

    2. Stopped the 1 bombing-per-week in Indian cities. He even responded to the harassment attacks on military personnel (Pathankot, Uri, Pulwama) with counter-moves.

    3. Scrapped Art 370 with no regard for diplomatic niceties or constitutional compartments or strategic blowbacks.

    These 3 things caused the Indian non-left non-liberal crowd to leave their chawl and move into comfortable gated enclaves. Now they could have independent voices and the freedom to maneuver.

    Trads want consolidation of gains.
    (freeing temples from government control, decolonizing judiciary, conservative economic policies – junk MNREGA, oppose more American/Chinese access to markets etc)

    Raytas want more sallies into deeper enemy territory.
    (end reservation, amend history text books, Ghar Wapsi, prevent love jihad, use Art 356 like water on States, throw Bollywood under the bus, react to negative stereotypes of Hinduism in ads/netflix etc)

    So this is basically a problem of plenty – as in – now we have the hammer, we can see nails everywhere.

    I thinks Trads are operating at an abstract level with strategic concepts while Raytas are the unwashed infantry who want to shoot at anything that moves.

    Meanwhile, Modi is sitting cross-legged in that Himalayan Cave with an inscrutable face………

    1. Nothing out of the ordinary. Before the mobile revolution, most of these things were swept under the carpet, but folks living in UP know what SP really stands for, and not the ‘progressive’ messiah BJP baiters want to portray it as.

      1. but folks living in UP know what SP really stands for, and not the ‘progressive’ messiah BJP baiters want to portray it as.

        I have seen progressive fans of Lalu and Mayawati.
        First time hearing of Mulayam as the messiah. Where do I find these people?

  19. What do folks think about this: https://twitter.com/lfrayer/status/1482399169071521792?

    The lady in question is getting the usual flack from the usual suspects for being racist, but honestly, when I saw that picture of the railway line in LA with trash strewn all over, my reaction was the same as hers.

    I lived in LA for several years and drove around extensively, and don’t recall this level of deterioration. It’s sad if it’s come to this now. Over 90% of places I would visit always looked clean and orderly when I used to live there in the oughts.

    On the contrary, in India, even today (despite what the Swacch Bharat promoters would have me believe), copious amounts of trash is never far away. I literally have to walk a few yards out of my apartment complex when the sidewalks (if they are still paved) become unwalkable because of overgrowth, stink of urine, and trash. I have to drive maybe 10 minutes in any direction from my house to find the side of the road used as a landfill by the garbage collectors. What would have been a pleasant park-like space is completely ruined, and stinking to boot. And this is Bangalore, not some podunk town in Bihar.

    I haven’t been to a railway station since Covid. Before that, from what I saw, the authorities had (commendably) taken steps to keeping the station and the tracks clean. But the moment the train pulled out of the station environs, you would see trash strewn around. At least this is what I saw in the stations I used to frequent.

    1. @Pandit Brown

      Someone on Twitter said it best: Indians only seem to have two modes of reactions to white people: adoration or rage of the spurned. Both stem from the same instinct: a deep-seated desire to impress and be validated.

      You can see this even in China, where there was recent outrage over a woman model who was selling some food snacks in an ad. Her “crime”? Her eyes were “too slanted”, and the ad was castigated for playing into Western stereotypes of East Asians. The model herself noted that she was born that way and there is nothing un-natural about having slanted eyes as her, but this speaks to eurocentric ideals of oval eyes being the norm.

      I think – and hope – that once China and India become more wealthy and self-assured, that these minor complexes will fade away. That in turn should raise the overall level of debate and remove this kind of thin-skinned insecurity. My guess is that India would get there faster, because even if it is poorer it also seems to be more culturally self-confident than China appears to be.

      1. @pandit brown and @principia,
        I agree with you on the overreaction of online crowd.
        But I detect a variation of the “republicans pounce” theme in your and lot of others critique of the online hindutva crowd.
        For starters, An example of “ republicans pounce “ theme is democrats make a mistake. The nyt, cnn, msnbc crowd report on the republican reaction/over reaction rather than discuss the original issue.
        In this case, what the reporter did was equivalent to trump’s hellhole countries comment. I am pretty sure she has/would have a virtue signaled her displeasure at trump’s comment.
        Re the actual scenario about cleanliness in India, yes the ratio of dirty and filthy places in India is higher but is trending in the right direction whereas it is trending in the wrong direction in US. The main critique of msm is that they exclusively focus on negative stories to keep their narrative. And that this narrative is in service of the agenda to keep India as captive market and cheap labor pool for western countries.

        1. The main critique of msm is that they exclusively focus on negative stories to keep their narrative.

          I agree with you that westerners only seem to highlight the worst looking and most chaotic places in India, which is a skewed representation. I think the reason for this is that even “normal” places that aren’t where the super-rich live (like “farmhouses” in the NCR) are quite shabby by anybody’s standards. (I mentioned what my personal daily experience is like above.) In not just the West but in medium income countries (like China, Eastern Europe, etc.), the “middle”of society tends to acquire a level of neatness and orderliness that one associates with affluence, and which clearly demarcates it from the truly poor parts. In India, because the middle and the poor live symbiotically and often cheek-by-jowl that we haven’t gotten to this stage yet. I hope I’m making sense?

          But, as you and principia say, perhaps it is a matter of time.

          1. East Asia and Eastern Europe are ethnically homogeneous and “authoritarian”, so governments can impose hard and fast run rules.
            In case of India, the fact that middle and low income groups stay close together is net positive and major reason for the lower per capita crime. Not sure it is a good idea for us to mimic the west in that respect.
            The Swacha Bharat campaign needs to be complemented with local governments devolution (see below).
            More fundamentally, we need to focus on childhood nutrition to raise cognition levels and income levels. Unfortunately our economists only notice the symptom of low productivity and instead of recommendations to address the root cause, ask us to adopt a consumption driven and services focused economic model.
            Coming back to western media, their bad faith is exemplified by them not just focusing on negative aspects but misrepresenting even the good initiatives of the government as driven by fascist tendencies.

          2. @Bhumiputra:

            East Asian and Eastern European countries can vary in their degrees of authoritarianism. If authoritarianism was the reason for their relatively higher orderliness, then their public spaces would look even better than they are. I believe the nature of public spaces reflects the desires of the public and not that of the state.

            In case of India, the fact that middle and low income groups stay close together is net positive and major reason for the lower per capita crime.

            I confess I don’t see any virtue in this arrangement, though likely many share your view. You may be right (though I’m not entirely convinced) that this arrangement keeps violent crime down, though other kinds of petty crime and fraud are rampant in India to an extent not seen in the West. Also, Western crime rates are highly skewed by the US, which is an outlier in terms of violent crime.

            To the contrary, I believe that this symbiosis has made people too dependent on cheap labor. People get soft, they don’t learn how to do simple chores and take personal responsibility, which build character. Their children grow up very spoiled and relatively less-equipped to handle the challenges of adulthood. Finally, this engenders a kind of feudal system which makes political and cultural change extremely slow. (Again, I regard this as a vice, others may regard it as a virtue.) In a Western society, there is both incentive not to be poor (you live visibly in degraded circumstances) and ample opportunity to get out of that state if you are.

          3. “they don’t learn how to do simple chores and take personal responsibility, which build character”


            Indians are not good at making, cleaning, repairing, and organizing everyday stuff by themselves, are not hands-on, lack of initiative shows in things like how we dress or take care of our bodies.

            I don’t foresee Indians ever becoming hands on like the Americans or the Dutch but things will obviously improve when manual labor costs escalate and when costs of better tools (stuff like dishwasher, better cleaning supplies, better multi tools…) become accessible to Indians. Think about how washermen are going extinct with washing machines becoming common.

            I know this well off Indian guy in America who repairs cars in his free time for pleasure and flips them for meagre money.

          4. On tools:

            Indian aversion to do one time investments on good tools is weird. Makes them extra averse to DIY.

            Most houses barely have one plier, a couple of screwdrivers, a hammer and a few wrenches at most. It is hard to do much with those. The civil works are also not DIY-friendly. No Indian bicycles have quick release levers for tires, all because some poor bike repair guy would happily work extra hard.

            The worst of all are the shitty knives, Indian kitchen knives are just awful. People get away with this because desperately poor folks do all the hard but ultimately useless work.

          5. @Bhimrao:

            I echo everything you say. I’m not sure why people keep using flimsy kitchen knives, but the reason for not using more machinery may be because Indians, especially older people, are just not used to mechanization as much as people in richer countries. I’ve seen people (including in my family) get quite uncomfortable around technology and often resort to a low-tech option if available.

  20. https://twitter.com/rohan_mukh/status/1482595519528861702

    Share of local govt employees in total employment in the US/China is 5 times that of India. Local govt expenditure is 3% of total govt expenditure in India, compared with 27% in the US and 51% in China.

    India’s share of state employment of all govt employees is almost 60%, whereas it is just 10% in China. Is this a reason why state capacity is India is comparatively lower? Most people’s interactions with the public authorities are at the local level, not state level.

    1. Yup… the 74/75 amendments have been passed but no state government is interested in ceding power to local governments. This is mainly b/c they fear local mayors will do what CMs do to opposing party PMs. But mainly it is zero sum mentality.
      At least in KA, there is a concept of District minister, a regular cabinet minister who happens to be from that district and basically manages all overall administration in the district.

    2. is it probably because even employees of village panchayats are ‘ government servents’, who are employed by the state and paid and controlled by them.

  21. https://www.google.com/amp/s/femuscleblog.wordpress.com/2019/02/18/razib-khan-men-are-stronger-than-women-on-average-and-why-men-should-never-hit-women/amp/

    Garbage old hit piece directed at Razib. I looked it up since Razib recently posted about test and sex diff in strength. Lmfao powerlifting. This author is using a bunch of roided up people as examples. Exogenous test has diminishing returns so it radically alters female potential more than even male one (can have a big impact on both). What an awful example. Razib is correct. Elite women with training are about as strong as average men with training. The diff in strength is multiple standard deviations.

  22. Bollywood losing its traditional hunting ground – the teen or the early twenty-something industrial or agricultural male worker – to the Telugu movie industry.


    …. Telugu film heroes resonate with young men in the small, rundown towns of Bihar, Gujarat and Odisha. “Their experience of education will be broken down school buildings and overcrowded classrooms. Their experience of life is about them being pushed into work at too young an age,” he says. They relate more with characters and narrative arcs of films from the south. “One instance I was given: a film with Jr NTR where a son wants to meet his father’s expectations. Bollywood doesn’t match up. It’s too unfamiliar,”…….

      1. I think UP-Bihar is just a bit behind on the whole Telugu-Tamil syndrome which caught up in the North, around late 2000s.

        Plus i feel all the Gangs of Wassepur spinoffs are too stylized and glamorized for UP-Bihar. There is this sweet spot which Telugu /Tamil are delivering, with more earthy looking actors ( most Bollywood shows are still casting models as Gangsters) who look the part (smuggler, delivery boy etc) .

        1. Gangs of Wasseypur spin-offs have been done to death.
          I don’t remember the last good Hindi movie I watched. Maybe Andhadhun.

          Been seeing a lot of chatter about Decoupled. Is it good?

        2. The absolute worst was Super 30 where Hrithik Roshan plays an underprivileged teacher but wears a “brown face” 🤦🏽‍♂️.
          Curious what themes do bhojpuri movies tackle? Somewhere I feel UP/Bihar OBCs/SCs/STs are suffering from the Banyan tree effect.

          1. The absolute worst was Super 30 where Hrithik Roshan plays an underprivileged teacher but wears a “brown face”

            Seems a bit ironic because I have met Anand Kumar and he is not that dark. Hritik didn’t need to put on that make up.

          2. Hrithik is lighter skinned. But I don’t see why they couldn’t have got some more skin tone matched actor (there are lots) to play him if this was such a concern.

            On the other hand is brownface really an issue in India?

            I thought the blackface had to do with minstrel show history in the USA and is a relatively recent thing to take issue with. (For eg ultra pc Canadian PM Justin Trudeau who is the son of another left leaning PM did black / brownface multiple times at parties.

        3. Decoupled is OK i guess. In the age of political correctness, it tried to irreverent, which is a good start.

          Hindi movies move through phases. There was the S-Indian remake phase which Bhai, Canada Kumar and Pan Masala Devgan exploited to hilt. Now is the ‘small town’ phase where Ayushman plays the urban NCR guy, while Rajkumar Rao plays the Kanpur-Allahabad guy.

          Telegu movies have hit the right market with Bhojpuri demographic. They portray a stylized version of what happens in Bhojpuri movies. Not too stylized as Bollywood , but not as crass as Bhojpuri movies. Just perfect mix.

      2. @Prats

        Interesting read……recently some Twitter discussion went on about Arundhati Roy (our faux marx ) complaining that Indian cinema stopped showing poor people. She was probably framing some class war narrative!

        Still her grouse is true for Bollywood at least – it is now a karaoke track solely for rich people voices. Four-fifth of the actors are related to each other and the other one-fifth are activists. Almost no cultural output for Tier 2 and Tier 3 towns other than aspirational and caricaturist genres.

        1. I think her main grouse is she didn’t get to act in further movies after her debut with Shahrukh.

          Had directors been more kind, we all would have escaped her wrath, it seems.

          1. I was not aware of arundhati roy acting in same movie as SRK. The Sailerian theory does explain quite a bit about why high iq women especially from high achieving groups are very active as woke SJWs.

          2. until the same inner circle Khatri family of dominance ends, bollywood won’t regain the same mass appeal. regardless, I am happy to see some appreciation for characters that look more like the Indian people. Worshipping of the relatively lighter skinned more West shifted appearing bollywoodoids was getting old. It still happens, but it appears to have declined.

    1. Funny to see woke aggravated right wing Americans quoting Caravan as an authority on India. Reminds me of a Manu Joseph quote about how everyone wants conservatism at home and wokeness abroad.

  23. @Pandit Brown,
    I agree that need for orderliness might contribute more than authoritarianism and east asian and east european countries. Although this may vary by cultures and countries. Some of it may partly be driven by discipline and long term planning that cold and temperate climate demands.
    Re middle and low income groups sharing the same physical spaces, I do think US, Brazil and SA are the right control groups in terms of socio-economic diversity to compare against IN.
    I agree with you and @Bhimrao, that availability of cheap labor had made the middle and upper class/castes go soft. This has also in turn made these groups servile to westerners. There is no reason co-sharing and economic/social interdependence between high, middle and low groups has to mean all the negative things you rightly pointed out. A counter example is 18th and 19th centuries england. The english elites re-directed their population surplus to new world. This involved massive leaps in productivity of their middle/lower classes.
    As I mentioned US, BR and SA are good examples of the downsides of your approach.

  24. Howdy pundits, still fighting the good cultural fights I see!

    Demographics is a favourite drawing-room topic of discussion in India but for the first time ever it seems like there’s a camp forming that’s arguing that falling growth rates are a matter of concern. Those wedded to neo-liberal growth-first economics might argue that, but all the statistics in the world can’t hide that India is a crowded country with limited physical resources and will forever remain so. I see in my own circle of friends and acquaintances (30+, very well-off and from elite uni’s) that less than half of those in India are choosing to have kids and those that do are most definitely clear that they will not have a second one. Interestingly enough the ones settled abroad (myself included) have all had kids, multiple ones at that. There’s something clearly dysgenic about bringing up children in India, the poor quality of life in Indian cities probably being the most important reason followed by the incessant pressures that living in a competitive, crowded country puts on an individual. I’m sure similar forces are at play in China, they’re just a couple of decades further down the path of Demographic decline than India is.

  25. … in his “Dark Horse out of the Steppe”:
    “The origins of Indo-Iranians in Poland and Byelorussia explain why upper-caste Indians today display genetic affinities with Europeans. These connections are the result of a migration of Indo-Iranians from the lands to the south of the Baltic Sea thousands of years ago all the way to India’s Gangetic plains, a 3,000-mile migration that took over 1,500 years.”
    One assertion is that the term ‘Indo-Iranians’ should be replaced with ‘Polish’. (PS: this comment was not published under ‘Can Linguistics prove AMT & reject OIT?’)

    1. Consequential conclusions:
      – ‘Polish’ people were future Aryans
      – ‘Polish’ language was proto-Sanskrit
      – ‘Polish’ people brought Rg Veda

      1. – ‘Polish’ language left Europe before the arrival of Yamnaya

        – ‘Yamnaya language’ cannot be equivalent to ‘Indo-European language’

        – IE Urheimat is in Poland’s proximity

    2. “Based on the above citation ‘Polish’ people left Europe before Yamnaya arrived there. So, it means that Yamnaya language cannot be equated with ‘Indo-European’ language (as Kurgan asserts). Finally, the IE homeland is in Poland’s proximity.”

  26. https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/philippine/philippines-to-buy-indias-brahmos-supersonic-missiles-01142022133408.html

    worth 350+ million USD!!! the line of credit India had extended was only USD 100 million.

    Seems to be a big deal. @Ugra bhai comments? How come Russians let this happen?


    Why the west does not develop supersonic anti ship cruise missiles:

    Short answer: Supersonic ones like Brahmos fly higher and carry less payload than subsonic ones like Tomahawk or Nirbhay, negating most of their benefits.

    1. Meanwhile in KA, https://theprint.in/india/kannada-vs-sanskrit-war-in-karnataka-as-pro-kannada-bodies-reject-sanskrit-words-university/806915/.
      To recap, a government proposal to provide a kannada option in higher education (in line with NEP) was nixed by legal maneuvers in HC. The existing Kannada uni is languishing but a new Sanskrit university is being allocated generous funds.

      This is trads diligently working to bring congress alliance back in power in KA.
      Trads would rather have the old 70s coalition of Savarnas +Dalits + Muslims with them at the top rather than share power or god forbid play second fiddle to OBCs.
      Keep this in mind the next time you have trads kvetching about conversions or preserving native traditions and languages.

    1. I think the views of the peasantry towards the three savarna castes bear some congruence across region and religion. Brahmins were resented for being able to enter the Raj’s bureaucracy, Bania were loathed for control of businesses, Kshatriyas were admired and emulated. The only exception was in Gujarat.

      What differed was the sophistication of the political response to Brahmin-Bania domination. In the north, the Jats, Yadavs, Ahirs, Gujjars settled on a power at all costs strategy, mixed with some Steppe racism. This strategy seems to have run its course. It is no match for Hindutva. In the south, Reddy, Kamma, Vanniyar power at all costs was mixed with Dravidian nationalism, which has given it an extra lease of life, but not for long.

      In Maharashtra, the Marathas were more sophisticated, aligning with a broader Hindutva movement which had a buy in from the upper castes as well. I will not be surprised if the Shiv Sena is the only regional party that remains an important force in politics in two decades time.

      Pakistan basically evicted its native Brahmins and Banias, and imported some nawabi types from UP. The result shows in their scientific, cultural and business output.

      1. @vikram,
        I agree with your analysis of the views of the peasantry across different regions. Only 1 minor quibble. The Marathas in MH aligned with Punjabi Savarna dominated Congress high command which basically ditched the MH savarnas. In KA, both peasant castes got turfed out.
        I do however disagree with your prognosis. As of now, Modi is barely able to hold his coalition of Savarnas and OBCs together in face of Congress/Trads exploiting all hidden fault lines. This Savarna/OBC fault line also explains the luke warm support the farm laws received in eastern UP/Bihar farmers. They were not sold on the neo-liberal premise.
        You are right that OBCs don’t have much scientific, cultural and business output to show. But that does not mean they will/should accept being relegated to 3rd class citizenship. I am hopeful things will change in future. Maybe moving out of savarna shadow will hasten that process. TBH, if the fault line persists, most OBCs will come around to the Sikh view that it is better to be direct vendor to ultimate anglo masters than indirect vendors through our savarnas.
        sad but true. The first step in resolving these fault lines is states reorganization to more closely align with caste boundaries in addition to ethnicity and a truly federal structure. The union will have limited enumerated powers needed for defence. States will only share limited revenue with union etc. It will provide a dose of reality to both sides.

        1. I agree with most of what you say. And things are probably going to pan out the way you have described. However there are a few mitigating factors:

          1) Savarnas are not as rabid about genealogy as they were in the past. The upper caste matrix today is an increasingly open one, marked by adherence to a religious/national identity rather than hereditary descent.

          2) There is no clear endgame to the OBC/Muslim/etc alliance. What is their ideology ? What is the incentive for the SCs to come on board ?

          The material reasons for OBC party support may remain, but Hindutva will always retain an emotional cachet.

          1. Re #1, it is the trads vs raita. You are describing the raitas.
            Re #2, the same question can be asked to trads in their coalition with Dalits and Muslims.
            The stable equilibrium might be we will have someone like kejri led trad coalition taking power alternatively.

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