235 thoughts on “Open Thread – 05/20/2022 – Brown Pundits”

  1. Seeing many recent TV debates where people claiming that many Hindu temples were built on destroyed Buddhist sites and how far do we go in history

    Another oft-repeated talking point is that conquerors destroying religious structures in vanquished kingdoms was also very common in pre-Islamic times in India.

    The sad part is none of the people on the right seem to pushback against this narrative.

    1. There is nothing to push back on. The Left can claim imaginary ‘moral victories’ on TV debates, while the right ploughs through and makes real temples made. When the courts which are filled with Indian urban left elite, know which way the winds are blowing, and ‘allow’ certain surveys to takes place, you know where the narrative is going.

      There is nothing to worry on supposedly destroyed Jain or Buddhist temples. Jains are UCs hindus (by a different name) , while no Buddhist from Ladakh is gonna come down and claim some temple is destroyed. The only jokers one has to worry about is woke-sters from ‘less-Hindu’ regions.

      1. Jains are toothless. They have no army prescense. No food growing abilities. They cannot survive without Hindu masses. Hindus are all their customers. It was integrate voluntarily and try to lead or by default.

  2. It is more important to remove institutional discrimination. and discrimination by govt in name of minority/majority, be it schools or temple administration, etc. create H schools/services to the poor and let education of the next generation do the rest. Power is good, but merely making laws and reclaiming temples back means nothing much. Have a law similar to holocaust denial law, anyone who denies islamic bigotry under guise of economic/politics motives is playing a game of no true scotsman fallacy. This has caused and is causing severe consequences to nonmuslims in many places. Parliament should first acknowledge armenian genocide. which was the original inspiration for hitler and nazis.

    1. Armenian Genocide is usually recognized by countries that either have a large Armenian diaspora or countries that have bad relations with Turkey or both. Morally it would be the right thing to do, but I don’t think the Indian foreign ministry would support it at this time. However, if Turkey gets too close to Pakistan, the genocide can certainly be recognized to annoy Turkey.

      Also, wth Pakistan is the only country that doesn’t recognize Armenia. Even Turkey and Azerbaijan recognize it! I said it in the other thread but its truly pathetic how much Pakistan sucks up to Turkey.

  3. Too many “idiots” still believe in arguments. Rather than using power to make laws, institutions, strengthen community. If arguments worked, why even vote?. The purpose of vote is power to fix things. This whole “argument” is just soft cover over the hard power/policies. Dont get angry and upset, organize,get power. set incentives, dinincentives, punish those who cross the line. arguments are in the end cheap, requires least amount of commitment i guess.

    1. arguments/debates are softcover over hardcover of real power to punish. If you dont have that, people wont even be respectable to you. will be as crass as they can because there is no cost.

  4. https://www.indiatoday.in/india/video/gyanvapi-masjid-row-matter-of-faith-or-question-of-law-1952138-2022-05-20

    The level of arguments by Indian historians is so juvenile that for once i must use razib’s critique of 82 iq.

    Basic logical fallacies, no truescotsman fallacy, the argument that one isnt a bigot unless one is bigoted every single day of one’s life. That a bigot cannot be calculative or show any restraint.

    No wonder India and hindus are doing so badly. This level of debates would not sustain even in online forums.

    can we first teach logical fallacies in all school textbooks please?.

  5. The kashi mandir-masjid issue is a bigger lightning rod for both Muslims and Hindus and in some way it ain’t.

    The temple of abode of shiva, who for lack of better word , is no Ram. Doesn’t arouse the same passion. Yet its demolition is quite clear cut unlike Ayodhya, so Hindus are on far stronger footing.

    The Muslims have the opposite predicament. They defended with much zeal for Babri, which for all practical purpose was a depilated mosque with no Namaz being held, come the 90s. Unlike babri, the Gyanvapi Mosque is bigger and functional. But they are on a weaker footing on the demolition front, so they are arguing for Indian law.

    In the middle, there are jokers from “less-Hindu” regions, in the lookout for that imaginary jain or Buddhist who would lay claim to their temples/viharas below Hindu temples.

        1. The Hindu Temple and Community Center in Sunnyvale even has a Parshvanatha deity.

          1. I stayed with a American Gujju Jain family which curiously enough celebrated Rath Yatra. I dont know why.

  6. Well I, for one, welcome the global upheaval that is set to dominate the 2020s.

  7. In 1992, I was too young to follow or even understand the socio-political aftermath of the Babri demolition. The only dim memories I have is that we got 2-4 weeks of an unplanned school break. Looking back, it seems almost surreal – even in that pre-mobile/internet era, the tension spread to every corner of the country. Even my cousins in small towns received long school breaks.

    Following Gyanvapi in this social age feels like a franchise re-run. The cast has re-assembled, some are older, some are wiser, some have passed away, some have battle scars – the audience though is predominantly new – and the audience from the earlier prequel is giving us cues on what to expect and what not to!

    Some things have not changed at all – the societal incompetence of the Gangetic folks to enforce their writ even in a local setting, the ability of Indian Muslims to play off smaller stakes against pan-India aims and the cultural faultline in New India – Hindutva driven West India vs the secularism ridden Gangetic plains.

    Close to 70% of Indian Muslims live in the Gangetic Plains – in an arc starting from Delhi all the way to the Hooghly Basin. As a result, the political epicentre and cultural locus of secularism is also the Gangetic Plains. The greatest exponents and beneficiaries of secular theory also come from this area.

    The sea change between 1992 and now is that – Hindutva from Western India has put one over the Gangetic secularists in the last 2 decades. Gujaratis and Marathis now determine political expediency in the Gangetic Plains (Yogi as CM is a successful Western India imposition).

    And now it remains to be seen, whether Hindutva will once more spend political capital on Gyanvapi/Gangetic folks. The locals have messed it up again – gloriously – another 50 year legal battle looks set up. The last time, a Sindhi gentleman carried water for the Gangetic folks.

    I can see 3 main reactions from the Gangetic Hindus –

    1. Outrage, outrage, outrage (wuzu)
    2. Pleas to Modi to scrap Places of Worship Act
    3. Murtipuja is against Vedic ideals (shades of Arya Samaj and copium)

    Bharatendu Harishchandra, also coincidentally hailing from Kashi, wrote these immortal lines in the 18th century – Andher Nagri, Chaupat Raja, Takke Ser Baji, Takke Ser Khaja…

    1. Close to 70% of Indian Muslims live in the Gangetic Plains
      Truly a “More Hindu” region! More Muslims than Pakistan&Afghanistan combined, Mughal landmarks&Mosques everywhere and an alleged National language marinated in Farsi&Arabic loanwords.

  8. As I said beware of woke-stars from “less Hindu” regions.
    Especially the ones who have no dog in the fight.

  9. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFPRxi6n76U
    shekar gupta is calling for reconciliation with regards to the muslim temple demolitions. the very fact that the likes of shekar gupta wants a reconciliation itself is a big step.
    well, karnataka has revised its school text books. others will also be forced to do so.
    the fact that ex muslims are coming out and showing their faces is also a radical step.
    i foresee gharwapasi of muslims at least of the pasmanda variety.
    we are living in very interesting times indeed.

  10. https://aninews.in/news/national/politics/cm-pramod-sawant-calls-for-reconstruction-of-temples-destroyed-by-the-portuguese-in-goa20220522205957/
    when you about making things up as you go along. Problem in hindutva is there are no concrete goals. No concrete investment in terms of what is its real ideology. No enunciation of dharma. making and reclaiming temples is easy way out compared to making institutions and giving people autonomy with regards to religion. When your ideology is every day incitement to win the next election. Good luck making India a place to attract capital once riots start. As I said, win first and then fight over what needs to be reclaimed without worrying about backlash. we need to be where china is. Hide your strength and bide your time.

  11. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9yreKBlwlU

    About the e1b1a conversation. The African e1b1a probably has nothing to do with Eurasian ancestry directly. But maybe there is some indirect effect. E1b1a could be descended from some North African ANA-like population (which itself would be phylogenetically between Eurasians and Sub-Saharan Africans). But when the e1b1a was carried down into West Africa (or westward from an Eastern African source for that matter), the original ANA source may have arrived in an admixed state with some Dzudzuana (actual Eurasian) ancestry. So e1b1a could have arrived WITH western ancestry but not FROM western ancestry.
    As for that Natufian e1b, it is a very different clade from e1b1a, sort of ridiculous how e doesn’t have other letter subclades, imagine saying f4b2b2b1a1a…. for r1a1a or something like that. Natufian e1b split from e1b1a over 40,000 years ago (both descending from e-p177 I think) so it doesn’t have anything to do with e1b1a’s recent spread as far as being related is concerned. And the Natufian e1b is intrusive into west Asia from a North African source (like Mushabian) I suspect, but I can’t be sure until some Kebaran ydna is sampled, and enough is sampled to rule out pre-Natufian era presence of e in southwest Asia.

    1. The lactose tolerance conversation is interesting. I agree with Razib’s fermentation point.

      Additionally I have read that among modern day Arab peoples, the gulf peoples (original Arabic speakers) are more lactose tolerant than Levantine Arabs (who are more so Semitic people accultured into the Arabian Semitic language branch). -> though I do not know how much of the claimed difference in lactose tolerance between these 2 populations is true.

    2. Regarding Sumerians, I agree with Razib’s point about the Iran neolithic component probably being the biggest source, but I think they will have more Anatolian than Natufian.
      Also it looks like the earlier part of the first comment about the 30K year old E1b transmission is irrelevant since Razib brings it up later on in the conversation.

    1. India needs to get rich before it is powerful enough to go to go toe to toe. Otherwise it will be a competition as to who will lose the least to China or mostly slowly

    2. The article seems to suggest that reinforcing territory already under its control counts as victory for China. I don’t think India really intends to ever make good on its claims to Aksai Chin, but has done well in holding ground and building up capacity and infrastructure. Both sides are just digging in like the India-Pak on Siachen. More wasteful expenditure for both sides but China can obviously better withstand it.

  12. why do american blacks aks and not ask? i saw this on razib’s interview repeatedly.

      1. I would say yes, you can see the replies to the DGISPR tweets, getting ratioed pretty badly.

  13. on the sham sharma show yesterday, AIM was advocating changing the population mix in kashmir as a low level solution. kushal mehra mentioned about falling t f r of muslims in the valley. well if this is true, this will have long term implications.

  14. anons have pushed ideas in past 10 yrs that has in many ways changed cuture and offered solutions. crypto being a visible example. This is incredible. Our culture is being impacted by anons now more than ever and many dont take credit, just want to push ideas into mainstream culture.

  15. There used to be this guy back in the day called Arindam Chaudhury who ran the Indian Institute of Planning and Management (IIPM). Quite an iffy B-school.

    Had a decent personal brand thanks to front page ads on Times of India and photo ops with SRK, MMS etc.

    His institute was shut down sometime in 2010s and he seemed to disappear off the face of the earth.

    I just learnt today that he is on Twitter where is LARPs as a Marxist atheist! Also quite the debonair narcissist.

    Nice bit of nostalgia there.

    1. Shameless asshole. Scammed thousands of folks with sham unaccredited degrees in 2000s when the business schools started mushrooming in the north.

    2. Debonair is quite generous 😀. I remember a wet set pony tail and rimless specs.

  16. Mohammad has been criticized by bjp minister on television channel . Lets see if Modi backs her or cowardly throws her away. With all due respect to razib, until criticism of islam/ mohammed is tolerated to the degree as is the case now with respect to other religions. No amount of historical arguments, cognitive science arguments will cut it. It will be different from other religions and on a wholly different trajectory than has been the case for other religions. In order to make progress, this needs to be normalized. And severe penalties to the community, because crimes in this regard are not individual crimes, they are communal crimes. Problem with “secular” law is just that it expects people to be treated individually for individual crimes, but ideological, communal crimes of this nature will often overwhelm law and order eventually if they are seen and treated as one off incidents.This will happen due to severe strain on police logistics and also through elections where their votes will subvert this progress.
    As to the secular/liberal judges and intellectuals, you can be assured that they will slink away. reminder that only recently a professor was given bail for making obscene remarks with hindu faith.
    Indian state has to do everything it can to deal with this. even remove the word secular from the constitution temporarily if it has to.

  17. Pakistan and Sri Lanka have around the same levels of reserves to external debt. How likely is a Sri Lanka style implosion there ?


        1. Nor the Chinese. Keeping Pakistan afloat is in their interest. A few billions in Pakistan, is worth half the Chinese defense budget.

          1. Thats two big sugar daddies. Is the world really that scared of India ? I wonder what China and America’s worst case scenario wrt India is.

          2. I thought China would come to aid SL but didn’t. Hard to say what is going on within the opaque machinations of the CCP.

            The timing of the whole IK thing leads me to believe that Pakistani military establishment thought CCP won’t come to the rescue after seeing what happened in SL.

            Also the level of popularity of IK and anti American sentiment is high. So it is possible he comes back to power.

            Imo in that case possible America hangs them out to dry. Then possibly China steps in to help / influence.

            Overall a very chaotic situation.

          3. Sumit
            I thought China would come to aid SL but didn’t. Hard to say what is going on within the opaque machinations of the CCP.

            China has come to SL aid, in medicine etc. Same as India. No dollar handouts so we shop elsewhere.
            We just got a tanker of Russian crude. That means our only refinery is back in business. It was built by Iranians and geared for their crude or Russian crude.
            Had post on that. Must be in moderation as had zerohedge link.

          4. My understanding is India gave 3 billion or so in monetary aid (1 billion actual line of credit) in 2022. Which probably isn’t getting repaid for a very long time, if ever.

            China has barely given anything in 2022.

  18. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB0VTOC8J8E
    david frawley’s interview cited above. he speaks with a calm voice and is fairly aggressive, without raising his voice.
    konrad elst also puts across points fairly aggressively.
    i feel a need for the ‘english speaking hindus’ to learn ‘tarka’ and the art of argument to put their points across effectively.

  19. Its impossible to starve in Sri Lanka. Maybe those in the flats made for the slum dwellers in Colombo. A really thin sliver of even Colombo population. In rural areas (80% of SL) are quite self sufficient in rice and veggies. Fishing in the umpteen reservoirs and river, Even a little hunting (illegal) adds fish and meat to the table.
    Lankans will have to get used to eating locally produced food. Even lentils a staple in almost every meal is imported from Australia and Pakistan.
    Lanka does not have good soil (a little mulch helps), but we have plenty of water. A little elbow grease and a family can be more than self sufficient. A classmate who lives in Colombo is self sufficient in veggis. Grows them in pots on balcony and flat rooftop.

    In other news
    That means the Sapugaskanda refinery will be back in operation. The refinery was built by the Iranian and is geared to process Iranian heavy crude.
    I wonder how SL avoided US sanctions. Maybe the shipment is donation or on long term credit denominated in non USD or EUR currency.
    I guess the US wont seize Russian tankers, unlike the seizing of Iranian oil shipments. That would be an act of war.

    1. About an hour ago went to the village
      Oysters cleaned LKR 900 (less than USD 2) for a kilo.
      Free with a little elbow grease in the nearby lagoon.

      Brought it home Got the lady who helps to cook.
      She said she does not eat oysters and mussels as she had eaten too much of it when she was young.
      Same with the fish, doesnt eat. I too am not big fan, because bony. OK fried.

      I was reminded that pre 1900’s fish, lobster etc were the food for servants and field hands in the US. Even in SL very few people ate lobster even though they ate shrimp. My cousin who was a diver couldnt give lobster away to neighbors in the eighties when he caught more than needed for tourist hotels.

      Not too sympathetic when Sri Lankans say they starve.
      Plenty of food all around.

  20. Just to be clear, i only advocate the necessity of flexibility in laws to bring order and fear of law which is the primary point. And such flexibility should also be used sparingly, judiciously. And one can make any such rules timebound, expires automatically unless renewed by parliament. Until society adjusts to basic freedom of speech. And enough introspection exists as to be able to run without any such laws. It is about incentives and disincentives to bring people to the mean and there should be judicial independence to ensure some checks and balances.

    1. WTF MAN!!! This is shocking!

      I thought his antics were just fun and games.



      “I urge @HMOIndia to order an enquiry into how & who leaked the confidential list of people whose security was withdrawn by @AAPPunjab Govt @ArvindKejriwal & @BhagwantMann
      are responsible for the brutal killing of #SidhuMoosewala whose security was withdrawn yesterday”

      Seems suspicious given (taken from dnaindia):

      ‘In April 2022, Sidhu Moose Wala had sparked a row after he targeted the Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) and its supporters in his latest song ‘Scapegoat’.

      These things don’t just happen.


      The singer had allegedly called AAP supporters ‘gaddar’ (traitor) in his song. ‘

      As Saurav said, AAP’s Chikna Chaddha(s) from Delhi will get a taste of ‘real’ India in Punjab.


      1. LOL, soon the Delhi-wallah Hindu chaddhas will find out that Punjab is still the same one of the 70s and 80s which their parents ran away from. They all this talk of ‘Punjabiyat’ will end.

  21. warlock’s comment on Moosewala death and my reply disappeared.


    WTF? I though Siddhu’s antics were fun and games.


    His new song called AAP Ghaddar(traitor), his security was removed yesterday, not only that it was made public (leaked?) that his security was removed, he was shot today. This sounds too suspicious.


    As Saurav said:
    AAP’s Chaddha(s) from Delhi are on ‘Discovery of India’.

  22. how common are trads? I see some vile stuff from that group. Seems like another Steppe supremacist group like Khalistanis and the more secular Pak biradri ethnonationalists

    1. If you mean bitch about reservation, caste-ist (as in mentally calling someone ‘chamar’, ‘bhangi’, ‘maleccha’) slurs then very common (almost everyone) in villages and towns. If you mean IQ/genetics/history/katua/… then it is a online phenomenon.

      On caste trads say stuff Baman-Thakurs from hinterland used to believe in anyways, sort of like Khalistanis but their Khalistan is Hindustan so not my problem. Mostly shit post about reservation in jobs/colleges, IQ of the rest, and so on…

      The bakchod Trads to me seem to be first-second gen Baman-Thakur folks who live in cities and can’t say things in the open like their fathers and grandfathers used to in villages/towns.

      Not worth worrying about. Just like Madraasis (vis-a-vis Dravida Nadu), trads are too nice and too soft to do any major damage.

      1. This is horrible. even one person posting vile stuff is bad, it also leads to disgust that many others feel. Which leads to numbers for left and such types. We need IC marriages on steroids, a separate quota for them so that they dont merge into whatever their paternal castes are. And we need to have own schools and own eco system. Law is a blunt force. If there was local level strong asabiyya,making new laws would be unnecessary. People have wrong notion of dharma as some pravachan, it is first and foremost punishment of wrong and evil. Every one should in their hearts must carry that, if everyone did, we would be better off already. So much of Indian state is about weakneing asabiyya of H’s and strengthening of asabiyya of others, with bjp being a beneficiary of cowardice that develops as a consequence of loneliness as a result for lack of asabiyya. I keep reading people saying it is not worth saying x on twitter, be careful about the mob etc. cowardice is in the air. I can feel its stench. I atleast think building of asabiyya helps overcome it. bjp seeks to continue to remain the political beneficiary of it, even if it means that its spokesperson lose life. They have taken martyrdom of their workers to new heights.

        I hope people will now agree with my view, that there are no liberals/left in India. They are just colonized idiots. call them colonized left/liberals.

        1. colonized left/liberals because they violate their own principles

          1)They dont support minority rights.
          They abandoned minorities in 47, opposed caa. They support criticism of hindu minorities in the west/ america.

          2) They cant criticize chrsitianity or islam, not even during the past centuries. One can hardly point to any literature of these types even writing one book regarding this.

          3)Again/ minority rights is not the issue or they will criticize these things in muslim majority countries/ pakistan of all places, but dont, infact greet pakistanis quite well. Even now these media idiots will happily bring on afridi for interviews or parvez musharaff . What kind of mental slavery was going on?. You will struggle to find 5 articles by 5 muslim jouranlists in last 10 yrs that criticize what is happening on the other side of the border. People they left behind and have zero conscience about it. Hindu lives are cheap and good bait to appease crocodiles.
          4) freedom of speech/expression is about carrying on the masters vulgar form of fun of dual colonialism.

          5) Will criticize the west in forms approved by the west/ left.

          One cannot explain their behavior by any other way than through this recognition that we underwent dual colonialism and that explains their behavior. Just look at ram guha and pratap bhanu mehta to understand this. X list a,b,c as their principles. But X never applies those principles to two of its earlier masters and will bocott anyone who ever does so. Cowardice might explain with regards to islam for some, but they cant even get themselves to criticize Christianity either not here where in minority, but even in places where it is majority.Will solicit every western academic and activist, even bigots to criticize Hindus in India, without ever being invited to discuss anything american, except once again to criticize hindu minority in the west. Anywhere else in the world, people expect parity/ mutual respect. Here it is one way. seeking to be lectured upon. seeking to be insulted. Remember that uk lady that shashi tharoor and other congress members and media invited with “India’s daughter”. tharoor insisted that we should be shamed upon.

          Aroup Chatterjee was the only person who revealed what was behind mother teresa. And he is settled in uk. No one in India did that, even when communists were in power in west bengal. And her work if any was an insult to them. you think xi jinping would have governed a district and allow this sort of publicity ? or stalin?

          I suggest people to call them colonized liberal/left. when you call them left/liberal, you assist them in their own mythmaking.

        2. IC marriages are booming, almost the norm already. This trad/raita/Baman-Baniya-Chamar will (hopefully) resolve itself.

          1. 1) It wont, “booming” means what in terms of numbers?. One needs a separate IC political community, with quotas for being IC. Once the number reaches 15%, things will change.

            2) All IC marriages that result in people becoming part of paternal caste ultimately is meaningless Unless it results in deliberate political IC community.

          2. “It wont, “booming” means what in terms of numbers?.”

            Government says ~5% not changing for the past 40 years. Can’t be true. This paper from mid 2000s says rate is ~10% : https://epc2010.princeton.edu/papers/100157

            “Table 1 shows that in India the percentage of inter-caste marriages is about 11 percent out of which in 5.58 percent cases women marry to men of lower caste and in another 5.38 percent cases, the women belongs to lower caste but husbands belong to higher
            castes. ”

            I expect the number to be at least 15% maybe into low 20s (%) by now.

          3. “One needs a separate IC political community, with quotas for being IC. Once the number reaches 15%, things will change.”

            That seems too drastic. (Indian) Government can never match the support Indian joint families provide. Kolis/Jatavs are real communities with or without quotas. We can’t make a ‘community’ of folks who married IC, the level of persecution is not the same, the social/economic standing is not the same. When quota gets involved, people will play dirty.

            “All IC marriages that result in people becoming part of paternal caste ultimately is meaningless Unless it results in deliberate political IC community.”

            No becoming part of paternal caste is not that bad. What will be the pilgrimage sites of ‘political IC community’ (making things like Navayana’s Deekshabhoomi, Nagpur). What will be their festivals, what will be their wedding rituals, their …


            Most of these drastic things don’t work. Sab muh-chodi kar rahe hain. Folks on BP not that long ago were saying reduce India’s population. Now folks say increase it. Kaeshour bhai used to suggest send UP-Bihar Hindus into Kashmir, but advocates Pak Hindus convert. Folks don’t know shit. On time tends to 20 years, if all these modelling and statistics folks knew anything Japan’s population collapse wouldn’t have happened, and Pakistan’s coming water crisis would have been averted. People were shitting their pants when pandemic hit. (Rightly) Changed their opinions multiple times on things like masks. Despite their fifty degrees from fala-dhikana couldn’t do anything useful. ‘Public intellectuals’ are nerds looking to play the celebrity game in an entertainment industry big enough to accommodate them.

            I am not saying remain confused and inactive. But recognize which cat will catch the rat and which won’t, spend resources wisely. Life is short.

            Another point I am making is we do not know if creating a government neo-Periyar movement of caste eradication is even beneficial. Let things be the way they are, scoring handsome/smart men and beautiful/intelligent ladies from a different caste as potential spouse is already a big incentive. Time and trends are on our (pro IC marriage) sides, India will change one grave/chita at a time.

          4. One could say I don’t care about the caste/village/family specific ritual/sites/traditions and will assimilate into the overall Hindu identity just like the rest of non-practicing folks. This is totally fine. But becoming deracinated should not be promoted by the government.

            Incentivizing behavior with quotas is bad policy. For example, Ahirs (Yadavs) are not OBCs, their backwardness is a lie. Now Patidars and Jaats want to get in too.

    2. Never met a trad irl.

      I think anti-Muslim sentiment is 10x anti-Dalit sentiment.

      And to put things in perspective a BJP supporter uncle of mine chided my cousins wife for going to Hajji Ali shrine after marriage (she also went to some hindu temples)

      I thought that was quite intolerant of him. So it is still milquetoast by regional standards for religious hate.

    1. All sorts of groups have emerged to bask in of other (Gujju+Marathi) people’s glory.

      BSP’s Baman+Jatav alliance to VP Singh’s reservations are reminders of how ephemeral political things are.

  23. Any idea if the Kaleshwaram project has been a success ? Has the area under reliable irrigation in Telangana increased ?

  24. if the punjab situation develops into an insurgency, then this time center will be forced to seek control using army or c r p f, and also having governor’s rule. i feeling is that , then the supreme court will not intervene and strike down the certral rule.

    1. I think the situation will not escalate to that point. For the BJP, Sikhs occupy the same spot, what Pathans occupy are for Pak Punjabi army.

  25. Rumors has it that Bajwa’s wife was harassed by other army wives at a recent AMC meeting in Pakistan. She promptly left after just 15 mins. Bajwa’s sister has left for the US some time ago. His extended family already make most of their money there (Papa John’s franchises).

    The entire family seems to be under the thumb of the US. Won’t be surprised if he ends up there too. Quite amazing how little it costs for the US to corrupt a significant part of a 220 million country’s elite. I’m almost impressed.

  26. So the origins of the “Indus Gang” are 1996 at least. Interesting


    “In this new order that emerged, the Indus Valley civilisation acquired a unique significance, for this was not as “Hindu” as some of the other historical sites and buildings in the country.

    At the time of the Indus Valley civilisation, Brahminism, popularly associated with Hinduism, had still not emerged.

    There is, in fact, a popular theory, rejected by several experts of the Indus Valley civilisation, that its cities were destroyed by the Aryans of Central Asia, who eventually laid the foundation of Brahminism.

    Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro were, therefore, not “Hindu” cities.

    Divorced from their Hindu influence, these cities became acceptable. Their archaeological digging continued while the museum at these sites remained open.

    In 1996, Aitzaz Ahsan, a Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) senator, wrote a book, The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan, in which the implication is that the Indus Valley civilisation was always separate from the Gangetic Valley civilisation that was to emerge in north India later — thus, in a way, Pakistan was always destined to be separate from India.

    The most recent appropriation of this history was in 2014 when PPP chairman Bilawal Bhutto-Zardari decided to use Mohenjo-Daro as the site of the Sindh Festival, a cultural event.

    Sindh Festival: More than bread and circuses?

    The message is clear: Pakistan’s pre-Islamic history is acceptable as long as it is separated from its Hindu influence.

    This message can also be clearly seen in the Taxila region, where dozens of ancient Buddhist sites are well-maintained and open to visitors.

    What is, however, missing from the boards that contain the histories of these sites is how they were once “Hindu” sites before they were appropriated.

    The situation of Sikh historical sites has improved with several gurdwaras renovated in recent years.

    Compare this to the Katas Raj, an ancient Hindu temple in the heart of Chakwal in Punjab province, constructed around a sacred pond believed to have been created from a tear drop of Shiva.

    See next: Enter the Katas Raj temples

    The sacred pond has dried up several times. In November, the Supreme Court of Pakistan took suo moto action to inquire about the drying pond.

    With Imran Khan, sworn in as Pakistan’s 22nd prime minister, promising a “New Pakistan”, there is much expectation that the state will undergo a massive transformation.

    However, would a transformation be experienced in this context?

    Would the state under its new prime minister become secure enough to acknowledge its Hindu past and the Indus Valley civilisation without using it as a political tool to separate from “Hindu” India?”

    1. I dont think Pakistani’s acknowledging their Hindu past will make any difference to what Indians think.

      1. On the contrary, Pakistan won’t be Pakistan, if it acknowledges its Hindu past…

  27. Counter point to Medium Altitude Drones’ strengths.
    Hope our Generals and Strategists have not over learnt their lessons from Armenia-Azeri war. I remember the other day Samir Saran @ORF mocking russian war performance. Some sober western analysts have acknowledged that russia is fighting against entire NATO might. So russian performance needs to be seen in this backdrop.

  28. Speaking of Pakistan, I find the distinct disinterest that people here have of their current crisis to be puzzling. Can India and Indians more generally afford to be so lackadaisical?

    Imran Khan is not giving up, which is sending the country towards an internal crisis while simultaneously being on the brink of default. Seems people are implicitly assuming that because they are a nuclear state they won’t be allowed to spiral into chaos by “international community”. IMO, that is complacent.

    A country of 220 million with nuclear weapons careening towards a crisis right across your border is not good news.

    1. It about time an organic revolution of the people burn down the elite in Pakistan.
      The current government just increased petrol prices by 40%, electricity, oil and wheat prices by 25%-30%. Meanwhile, the elite are still enjoying all the subsidies and tax breaks and kickbacks from the government. Corruption cases are being dropped, and preparations are being made to rig the next elections while media channels are bought. The PM meanwhile has spent more time outside the country than in it since he took oath in April.

      However the public sees right through all these shenanigans. Pakistan’s economic problems can be solved by a government willing to end the subsidies, tax the rich, and chart an independent foreign policy. Obviously, the current government has no plans on doing that. Imran Khan will win 2/3rds majority if free elections are held today. In hindsight, his government was way more competent than the current lot, his management of COVID crisis was exceptional, and he was steering the country out of economic trouble slowly but surely after some early setbacks. Most of his naysayers have realized that faster than expected. He will come back to power, either as PM (or if things get worse – as a President).

    2. Punjabis are a loud people. They (and mojahirs) love drama, exaggerations… Don’t take their words too seriously.

      “Speaking of Pakistan, I find the distinct disinterest that people here have of their current crisis to be puzzling.”

      Nothing bad is going to happen, Pakistan will be just fine. Their forex has not been falling significantly. Everything is just the way it has always been.

      “Can India and Indians more generally afford to be so lackadaisical?”

      Yes, because nothing is going on. We have played this game many-many times with far better odds. Remember the early 2010s with Swat TTP, OBL,… Nothing happened then. Nothing will happen now.

      “Imran Khan is not giving up, which is sending the country towards an internal crisis while simultaneously being on the brink of default.”

      PTI will not be able to take one proper police lathi charge. There are 10 other solutions I can think of which the ‘actual Pakistani state’ can consider : first being bullet to Kaptaan’s head. Folks will riot, a few buses will burn but Pakistan has survived far worse.

      “Seems people are implicitly assuming that because they are a nuclear state they won’t be allowed to spiral into chaos by “international community”. IMO, that is complacent.”

      No, there is no sign it will spiral into anything. Forex reserves are stable. Army is strong as ever. Earlier PML folks used to rant online now PTI folks do.

      “A country of 220 million with nuclear weapons careening towards a crisis right across your border is not good news.”
      Pakistan is not heading towards crisis. Just Imran being noisy.

      1. //PTI will not be able to take one proper police lathi charge. //

        This is false

        Punjab and Sindh were locked down Kashmir style on May 25. PTI rally still reached Islamabad despite lathi charge and tear gas, the government had to call the army to protect the capital. 75,000 tear gas pellets were used, without avail.


        This is just an example of what happened last week. No other political party has any street power rivaling this in Pakistan, not even religious parties.

          1. This is nothing. (Sikh) Farmers did far better in Delhi just last year.

            Following link is the benchmark to be considered even regional level serious:

            Even if ten thousand die, state will prevail. Pakistani state is Pakistan army. No group in Pakistan has any gumption for a real fight. ‘Long March’ lol! all tall talk. Who will trek into the mountains and fight? Fawad Chaudhary and Zartaj Gul?

            Kaptaan deserves some respect, but even he is hoping some sections of the army will rescue him. Pak army is too disciplined for such a stunt.

            idk why some folks hate SS, he is a competent man. Pakistanis are too poor and dependent to do their own thing internationally under anybody’s rule.

            Realizing (and acting like) one is unimportant is good. Theatrics like insulting the US, or spurning Saudi-Emiratis by pappiyan-jhappiyan with Erdogan is bad policy. IK had nothing to gain from Russia. He had all the opportunity to do appropriate empty talk, dump on Indian ambiguity. Adventures in Afghanistan were too fresh. He fucked up.


            I also do not think having a nuclear warhead is a big deal. It does not make Pakistan special. South Africa had a nuclear bomb, I am sure at least one dozen other countries can make it in <5 years if they tried, another one dozen in <10 years.


          2. You claimed PTI workers cannot stand a lathi charge, but just a few of them caused enough ruckus in the capital against the police that the government had to call in the army. There is no comparison with Sikh riots, which was devoid of any popular leadership. IK today is a popular leader, on whose single call people are more than willing to do violence. It’s just that he is a pacifist, and he called it off before things got out of hand.

            We already have seen organized groups like MQM and TTP set up a parallel state in Pakistan against the will of the establishment for a prolonged period of time. MQM gun battles regularly saw 50-100 people dying in single day in Karachi.. just one example


            People give too much credit to ”the establishment”. This is common among liberal jouranalists in Pakistan (and Indians who share the same views as them). The ”establishment” is not as powerful and does not enjoy mass support outside Punjab. And with PTI ouster, they have lost face even in Punjab.

            Indians forget that Pakistan is not just Punjabis/Sindhis. Perhaps there is merit in the argument that Punjabis & Sindhis are too steeped in Indian/Hindu culture that they do not have the capability to rebel against an authority. This is certainly true for Sindhis. But things are changing fast in Punjab with easy access to social media. Also, Pasthuns are more than willing for a streetfight, and they are present in every city in Pakistan in significant numbers. You don’t need 220 million to come out to overthrow a government, you only need a few thousand to do so. .

          3. “You claimed PTI … things got out of hand.”

            I will believe it when it happens. Before that this is ordinary gundai and pathrao (sang-rezi?).

            “We already have seen organized … Karachi_riots”

            But PTI is no MQM or TTP. Those folks had all sorts of criminals. Who does PTI have? Those folks had no alternative, negotiation was not an option. Are burger-ati of PTI prepared for such sacrifices?

            “People … they have lost face even in Punjab.”

            I am actually quite happy that the Army is weakening.

            “Indians forget that Pakistan is not just Punjabis/Sindhis. Perhaps there is merit in the argument that Punjabis & Sindhis are too steeped in Indian/Hindu culture that they do not have the capability to rebel against an authority. ”

            Laughing in Marathi and Punjabi. Does Bose laugh in Bengali or Hindustani (Kadam Kadam badhaaye… and all). Pakistan is populated with converts who took up Arabian gods, its founding father was a colonial collaborator. Since the fall of Hindu Shahis, save the rare Dulla Bhatti and an occasional Fakir of Ipi, I can’t think of any from that area who resisted.

            “This is certainly true for Sindhis. But things are changing fast in Punjab with easy access to social media. ”

            Like I said. Punjabis (and Mojahirs) love tall talk.

            “Also, Pasthuns are more than willing for a streetfight, and they are present in every city in Pakistan in significant numbers.”

            When Hari Singh Nalwa comes you start addressing them as Hindkos and now they conveniently become ‘Pashtuns’ as if PTI folks are militant Talibans from Paktia. Pak army (and British Indian army before them) has annihilated Pashtun resistance many-many times. Their proxies rule even Kabul.

            Imran did not even win popular vote. He was propped up with all sorts of defectors. Without IK there is no PTI. PTI is no CCP or Taliban.

            “You don’t need 220 million to come out to overthrow a government, you only need a few thousand to do so. .”

            If it happens it will happen with the blessing of the army. Not via coercion of the Army.


            Getting rid of army hegemony is bad for Pakistan, good for India. I want Imran to win, I just don’t think it will happen.


          4. ”Imran did not even win popular vote. He was propped up with all sorts of defectors. ”

            This is incorrect, Imran’s party won the ‘popular vote’ both on the federal level and in Punjab – PMLN’s stronghold.


            The ‘defectors’ have all left PTI now, yet IK is more popular than ever.

            ”But PTI is no MQM or TTP. Those folks had all sorts of criminals.”

            Yes PTI is no MQM or TTP, these are ethnic organizations that went against the state, while PTI at this point represents the unity of the state. However if you are talking about militancy, MQM started of as a peaceful organization yet soon became militant. However I don’t think PTI will become militant, but they have a much much bigger audience than MQM or TTP.

            //When Hari Singh Nalwa comes you start addressing them as Hindkos and now they conveniently become ‘Pashtuns’ as if PTI folks are militant Talibans from Paktia. //

            Hari Sindh Nalwa never forayed into actual Pasthun dominated regions, he died at the Khyber Pass. Peshawar was ”Hindko” majority during Mughal era.

            //Pak army (and British Indian army before them) has annihilated Pashtun resistance many-many times. Their proxies rule even Kabul.//

            Most Pakistani Pasthuns support Pakistan so there was hardly any real resistance. I would call it Jinnah’s masterstroke, he granted FATA full autonomy as they wanted, and that status quo remained until 2018. TTP does not enjoy mass support outside Waziristan, and Pak army’s current hold on Waziristan is quite tenous at best.
            Winning a battle is one thing, holding territory is another, as the British, Soviets and the Americans found out.

            ” Since the fall of Hindu Shahis, save the rare Dulla Bhatti and an occasional Fakir of Ipi, I can’t think of any from that area who resisted.” ”Like I said. Punjabis (and Mojahirs) love tall talk.”

            As I said, there is credence to the theory that Indic groups are quite passive and do not rebel. All successful militant groups in Pakistan are either non-Indic or Islamist. Any successful militant organization in Sindh have ethnic ”Baluch” in them, including PPP’s militant wing. MQM is probably the only militant Indic group which was not Islamist, but then it consisted of deracinated immigrants free from their ancient societal bonds.

            ”Getting rid of army hegemony is bad for Pakistan, good for India. I want Imran to win, I just don’t think it will happen.”

            Pak army as an institution and Pak army’s hegemony are two different things. the institution is not going anywhere. But if army’s hegemony is reduced, it’s only good for Pakistan, the generals may spend more time against external enemies and less time on domestic policy.

          5. “ Perhaps there is merit in the argument that Punjabis & Sindhis are too steeped in Indian/Hindu culture that they do not have the capability to rebel against an authority. This is certainly true for Sindhis“

            I think even by Indian standards Sindhis are perhaps the most docile lot. During the 1857 mutiny, Sindh was pacified without “firing a single bullet”, boasted the English Governor.

          6. @Bhimrao

            My previous post got swallowed in a blackhole so posting summary of it again:

            – PTI got the popular vote in 2018 elections not just on the federal level but also in Punjab. So it’s an oft repeated lie that establishment engineered their victory and that without establishment, they would be toast. The only thing establishment did was to engineer defections in the opposition, and gather electable politicians under PTI .. about 20 seats. These defectors are now with PDM (at the behest of the establishment), yet PTI is still the largest party today and IK even more popular than before.

            2) Hari Singh Nalwa could not even enter the Khyber pass (where actual Pasthun heartland starts, not Hindko majority Peshawar) before he was killed. If this is the best Indic general to fight the Pasthuns, it doesn’t bode well on the Indics. Even today, there are very few Indic militant groups.. Most militant groups are either Non-Indic or Islamist or both. It’s a funny observation but Baloch or Pasthun militant organizations are much more effective than Punjabi or Sindhi orgs. Even militant wing of PPP consisted mostly of Baloch in Karachi. MQM is probably the only effective militant group that was Indic and non-Islamist. But its probably because Mohajirs are deracinated from their roots and therefore not bound by societal constraints that other ethnic groups have. And ever here, not all Mohajirs were equal, most of MQM’s militant cadre was made up of Biharis who knew how to fight (they learnt in 1971).

            3) It’s one thing to ”smash” Pasthun armies, another thing to hold their land. Most Pakistani Pashtuns are satisfied with Pakistan so there are no rebellions. A very small minority in Waziristan are not, so they are feeding orgs like TTP and PTM. Pakistan army’s hold in Waziristan is tenous at best and writ of the state there is pretty absent.

            4) Pak army as an institution is not going to be weakened if their hegemony is reduced. Reducing their hegemony is actually bad for India, generals may start paying more attention to India and less to domestic politics.

          7. I genuinely wish Imran wins.


            Reduced hegemony → reduced funding → diminishing ability.


    3. Pakistan is viewed predominantly through the lens of security in India. That threat has receded, China has taken its place, but in a more remote manner.

      I dont think Pakistan’s economic woes will register in India unless there is illegal immigration, like there is from Bangladesh.

    1. Meanwhile ‘less-Hindu’ region OBCs


      ‘Dravidar Kazhagam workers booked for derogatory slogans on Lord Krishna’

      On another note, i find it funny that unlike every other ethnicities, who happen to be lions in their home-state and mouse outside their home state, Hindus from less-Hindu areas are mouse in their home-state and portray themselves as Hindu lions outside the state (including on the internet and blogs) 🙂

      1. Idk how you can come to that conclusion, we didn’t have to fight for decades to build a Rama Temple in our own state and neither do we cry over the remains of temples in Mosques.

    2. I think the ‘more Hindu’ analysis here is wrong. Patidars are not OBCs, just wannabe OBCs.

      In Gujarat politics Patidars have been disenchanted with congress and KHAM (Kshtriya [rajput + koli], Harijan, Adivasai, Muslim) caste alliance since the 80s.

      Patidars rioted against the initial creation of OBC status in the early 80s.

      Hardik Patel attempted to join the system get OBC status and create a ‘KHAMP’ alliance , but failed for a combination of reasons (modi popularity, congress ineptitude, historical animosity, wrong subcaste). There is also of course a natural disincentive for existing OBC groups to include a large, relatively prosperous group in their quota as it would dilute it tremendously.

      If the Patels were granted OBC status in the 80s I think maybe they would be much more congress leaning in line with the KHAM castes.

  29. Bhimrao

    Yes, nobody knows the future. As to deracinated, its happening by itself, Lack of own institutions is doing this anyway. Going down this path ensures total owning of political future of the country for creating a new voter base that shall go beyond others. And this will go against periyar etc crap for there is not much ICM going on there. If anything, the anti -B characteristic is what essentially what holds it together.

    One should cut down weaknesses in our position that others have exploited in past and might exploit in future. The correct thing to do all the time is to keep improving our position demographically.

  30. The person posting this tweet is an economist based in the US,

    I find it hard to fathom how people can make such strange and evasive comparisons. Pune generates more taxes because it has high levels of human capital and substantial foreign investment.

    Sindh, like the rest of Pakistan has low levels of human capital, and thus generates few taxes. There is no ‘hidden wealth’ in property/real estate. The underlying cause is decades of low investment in both human and physical capital.

    1. Two things.

      I think u lay too much emphasis on ‘human capital’.

      He makes Sindh’s comparison because of Karachi, which is Pakistan’s Mumbai. So he says even the whole state doesn’t stand against a poor man’s Mumbai (Pune).

  31. An Indian American hasn’t won the National Spelling Bee since 2019. Is the community regressing to the mean?

    1. a) IA girl won this year.
      b) It is very strange that of all the things Indian American kids could be diverted towards, parents choose spell bee. I never saw the point.
      c) Why isn’t Math Olympiad a bigger deal among IAs? With the firepower and time available, Indians could do very well.
      d) Why not something like Olympics? IA could do quite well.
      c) I do see a lot of Indian American students doing very well ACM ICPC. That is far better use of time than this silly spelling bee.

      When I was that age in India, studious kids were going after NTSE and dreaming of Olympiads. During JEE days no one had the time, I got my teeth knocked off in KVPY (Kishore Vaigyanik Protsahan Yojana), by the time of RMO (Regional Math Olympiad) I knew this game was clearly beyond my ability.

      1. I mean I grew up as an IA around a lot of high achieving kids.

        I have no idea why Indians don’t pursue other stuff as much. Spelling bees are just very meh thing.

        The math olympiads are dominated by American Chinese students. I remember their parents would give them math textbooks meant for olympiad training (eg. art of problem solving) in early middle school. It was a very big deal in that community.

        Only one Indian American won at an olympic level. A guju guy, that too in gymnastics.


        Another prominent Guju American gymnast, is Akash Modi.

        1. I did not know about Raj Bhavsar. This is so cool and inspiring.

          There is another one too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohini_Bhardwaj

          But she has a Ukrainian mother so I guess that helped with the training.


          Indian American parents play safe and encourage children to pursue professional degrees.

          I see so many IAs in crypto, e-vtol, self-driving,… because the salaries are stable and some gora has convinced the world these are good ideas. No IA would pursue (via investment or starting up) things like Neuralink. IAs are like a Series B investor, happy making modest gains when the game is set.

          IA kids (2nd gen onwards) in general are very high academic achievers. When I used to TA I saw a few slacker IAs but never a dull/dumb IA. I have very high hopes from Indian diaspora in America (except the activist types). I just hope they go after Nobel prizes, Astronaut,… type stuff and not settle for things that normal Indians manage.


        2. As an IA, but having lived and worked in India extensively, my takeaways:
          a) Indians have more individual confidence and street smarts vs IAs. This is why you guys become CEOs and can navigate corporate hierarchies so well.
          b) IAs have a slight inferiority complex. Natural as we grew up as a racial minority and compensate with self-deprecating humor. We don’t have a civilizational inferiority complex however. We’ve grown up around a lot of different national cultures and thought/studied world history more. India’s role in the world, its journey makes sense. Its not a 0 or 1.
          c) Even for the most confident Indians, your pride in Indian civ seems hollow. Can’t seem to overcome linking it to where it “ranks” in concrete achievements. The love for it is real, but that is a different matter.
          d) Have studied abstract math at a pretty high university in famous department ect. Regarding Indian underrepresentation vis a vis other groups. The chinese and slavs just have more aptitude on average. Its a numbers game (no pun intended!)

          1. You are the first person to say that Indians have more confidence than Indian-Americans. Street smart, maybe, but more confident? No way.

          2. I think Girmit is spot on.

            Indians do have a greater sense of internalized self-respect / confidence. I it think stems from growing up in a place where they are the dominant group.

            (Might be different for people from marginalized groups in India. I am not sure)

            Also I think Indians have a greater immunity to the American cultural narrative bubbles, mostly because they have also experienced Indian narrative bubbles. So they are more able to see through elements of nonsense in both bubbles on avg.

          3. @saurav
            IAs being cocky *towards* Indians is not the same confidence to be a leader of all people in society. The former has to do with grooming and style and taste in popular culture. Is sort of a silly thing to hang one’s hat on because over time, even a kid from tier-3 town and poor english can ,and often does, “improve” oneself over the years as they assimilate and surpass people in these categories.

          4. “Regarding Indian underrepresentation vis a vis other groups. The chinese and slavs just have more aptitude on average. Its a numbers game (no pun intended!)”

            There could very well be a IQ thing going on. But there are simpler explanations.

            Indians come in full force to applied math classes (intro ODE/PDE/Control/Chaos/…) which had overlap with FEM/CFD… type things. But except Numerical analysis stay away from core math courses Real/Complex/Functional/Topo/Algebra/Geometry. I had only taken one math course on Laplace Transforms in my undergrad. That too didn’t have proof writing. Over time you learn there are only so many epsilon-delta tricks in Real Analysis. But it was painfully new for me.

            At best there are statistics folks from ISI or ‘math and computing’ folks from IITs, who can hold their own. You can’t expect engineering majors, especially ones as poorly taught as Indians to perform miracles and just skip 4+ years of undergrad math training. China sends a lot of proper Math majors.


            IA on the other hand almost never show up in graduate math courses. They can only be found in premed, business, CS-ECE and maybe in ME-CE-AE. They at least have the chance to take proper courses but choose not too.

            Most IAs are from Gujjus/Punjabis/Telugu families, all of which are pretty money minded (not a bad thing tbh) and make pragmatic decisions.


          5. @Girmit
            Disagree on IQ part. There was a S Indian T am Brahm and believe or not a Guyanese 1st gen guy who were the #2 and #3 behind the USAMO qualifier from my school. None of these kids pursued pure math in the end. And that Chinese guy was locked in his room from the 7th grade on and forced to do math by his mother, a math prison of sorts. It sounds made up but it happened.

            I went to a ton of math comps in NY metro area as a teen and trust me there were enough Indians doing well. But it was definitely a much more Chinese cultural affair. Whereas stuff like Intel Science Fairs were more Indian. Debate competitions were more Indian too but that shocks absolutely no one.

            Some of the most prestigious math prizes are won by Indians in graduate math. But the laser focus and prestige isn’t there for math olympiads like it is for stupidly misplaced spelling bees.
            Maybe the later is closer to memorizing Vedas…

            Chinese parents were way more obsessed with elite Ivy League degrees. Indians just wanted their kids to make money. Education was a means not an end goal of asserting prestige. Prestige was from the job. So stuff like comp sci, engineering, and medicine were encouraged. The rebels did investment banking, consulting, and law. But that’s just the culture of Gujarati, Telugu, and upper caste N Indian communities (largely Brahmins and Khatris).

            There is a reason Jatts do more creative shit and have a different experience than many of other groups. But they are becoming like other Indian Americans within a generation. Nonetheless, their blue collar standing gives them a different set of experiences. Hence stuff like becoming a hip hop star is much more prevalent from that N American diaspora community.

            Patels are incredible. They come as blue collar but with usually a lot of cash from selling farm land. They buy businesses. Do well. And within a generation most of their kids are in elite white collar positions.

          6. Indians are def more confident.
            Indian Americans are more insecure. They have a false bravado and outward arrogance that can be misleading.

            Indians as a racial category, especially when I was growing up, were considered bottom tier on the coolness scale. That has changed somewhat. But it was the reality then. Now I am not saying that was a main cause of bullying for most. It was easily overcome by athleticism, style, and real confidence.

            I was mostly bullied for being a skinny, short (late bloomer), unathletic mega nerd. Hell other Indian kids picked on me plenty. I did stand up for myself, but I could have played the social game a lot better.

          7. Looking at the USA IMO website indian Americans are roughly 1/6 team members over the last few years.

            That’s still an over representation by a factor of 10 relative to overall population.

            Chinese Americans are way more overrepresented but that is a different story.

    1. 🤢

      In America the basics of life get covered with very low effort. Opportunities are aplenty, everyone here thinks they are really-really smart. Try even half-assed-ly and I guarantee one can get into Ivy league, or the best engineering schools, even Med schools here have a 40% acceptance rate. Life is good.

      The fundamental job of a plumber (or a dentist/electrician/doctor…) in India is the same as one in the US, the one in the US will have far better off everything from upbringing to resources to training to healthcare to work life balance.

      In order to distinguish themselves folks here pursue things like sports, entrepreneurship, activism, public-service (politics), …

      Indian women like her have found their niche in activism which also acts as a path to leadership. Maybe they don’t have women Indian American women role-models in sports and entrepreneurship. But most likely they are just sly.

      ‘Caste among IA’ is being heavily egged on by gora folks. There is not much competition in taking up this cause either. Most Indians in America are H1B hamsters who were compliant and fat even before they left India. You don’t have to be a scholar, you don’t have to come up with compelling economic arguments on housing/educational/… disparity among Indian Americans. Just make noise, take a dump all over the place. Fame is a virtue in America.

      1. True. Happy to be in America. Owe so much to this country and my parents for immigrating. Life is so much easier here. Feel bad for bros in India. But things are improving there

      2. Indian americans ran away from India for this. Now they are facing the thing they ran away from. Hence, lets be clear about this. ICM and IC quota is the only solution to all this. incentives for C, but not incentive for ending it is too dumb, Incentives for ICM and IC shall over period of decades end all this.

        1. But there is no substantial evidence of caste based discrimination in the US. Where are the statistics, where are the numbers? Anecdotes from people with vested interests mean nothing. Even if we assume IAs are rotten they don’t have the numbers and power to discriminate.

          All this drama is to show IAs their place and invent sticks to beat them with.


          What I do think is required are interest groups that go around suing folks who screw with IAs. Fight fire with fire.

          If IAs thought they can just come to a place, work hard, and enjoy the goodies. World is not that simple.


          1. Evidence does not matter. story sells better. And all suing does not change the opportunity , discord and distrust it sows and someone might very well discriminate. Once that happens, that story will be sold even more. It is foolish to think cracks will not be taken advantage of. Where there are cracks, there will be people taking advantage of them. Hence the only solution is IC. otherwise you believe people can be divided but the divisions will not be taken advantage of by others.

  32. https://youtu.be/41VZj3jZXVI

    Great video explaining criminal nexus origin of pro Khalistan sentiment criminal gangs originating in Canada and their connection the modern ruckus in Punjab, of which Moosewala is the unfortunate most recent embodiment. I can see these gang types getting along with Miripuri gangs of UK as well.

  33. One thing can be done. A fair minded group of sc/st from similar ideology can be created to counter this. same with ex muslim etc. There is value in having allies. Who wins will depend on credibility of alliances.

  34. asabiya is the only answer, it is the first, it is second, it is third, only after that comes economics/ etc.

  35. Hey, a question to Razib (or to anyone who knows the answer).

    So, in population genetics studies especially the ones on uniparental markers like Y-haplogroups, I see older papers having much older dates for formation of haplogroups compared to the estimates given on Yfull.com . What’s the reason for the wide variation in dates ?

    – A follow-up question. I see even some recent papers use a tool known as BATWING to date coalescence time of haplogroups. How accurate is this BATWING tool ?

  36. Today I learnt that Shias refer to Sunnis as machchhar and Sunnis refer to Shias as khatmal.

    Is this a common thing or only limited some parts of UP-Bihar?

  37. https://theswaddle.com/google-cancels-a-talk-about-caste-bias-showing-casteisms-prevalence-overseas/

    ‘Indian leadership at the world’s biggest companies is a badge of pride that the nation likes to flaunt. Underscoring the narrative are vaguely distilled words like “representation” — thrown around to trumpet a post-racial narrative. Here are “people of color” CEOs who are leading the world’s innovation — it simultaneously paints a picture of supposed diversity, while also celebrating the people in question for “making it” as immigrants far from home. But their overwhelming location as privileged-caste, mostly Brahmin or Baniya men, is the missing link in the narrative.’

    1. remember Baniya well get extra hate for money lender role and relatively more AASI. they are by the far the most shit on group among the so called “privileged” caste peoples .

      This idiot writing this doesn’t realize that any animosity towards IIT aspirants from lower castes is actually in part because they had to literarily score, on average, often standard deviations lower to gain the same acceptance. They are on average less academically prepared. Make the requirements the same for everyone, and this will largely go away. Reservation only adds more animosity. Yes there is definitely a racialized element to the discrimination. But that isn’t the whole story.

      The funniest part is that that asset rich groups like Patels and Jats will start to reach these same positions and then everyone can hail them as subaltern success stories. When in reality, they possess more power in their geographic domains than any other group, just dominating everyone else with lands in crores

    1. South Indian cinema seems to be gaining in popularity, despite language barrier in the North.

      There is an upcoming Indian TV show called “The Archies” (based in the Archie comics) but set in India (?).

      The poster is really something else. These ppl are out of touch with Indian reality.

      Incidentally I think this is why Amir Khans movies are popular even outside India, he deals with real social issues in his movies.

      1. The Khatri mafia of Bollywood and the Indians who buy into their BS are all to blame. Thankfully educated Indians are calling out the foolishness of having a cinema that doesn’t even feature good looking members of the majority groups. Khatris are a minority among Punjabis, already a minority in India. And they pick the lightest ones or have them undergo fairness treatments or have them do brownface to play a darker character. It is moronic. There are plenty of good looking people in other groups. Some of it is definitely color and West eurasian feature bias among Indian audience. But a bunch of it is nepotism. Sushant Singh Rajput called it out.

      2. Not to pile onto the ample criticism this class of people already receive. But the haute-convent class, you know the one’s who went specifically to those 2-3 schools that had anglo-indian teachers and grandparents who took jive lessons and saw Cliff Richard once. They might be the most deluded folks in India, imaging a connection to the western world that never existed or was too tenuous to even remark on. The casting choices in “the Archies” almost suggests, despite shooting in Ooty, that these lighter skinned Indians are more suited for the roles based on appearance. Side thought: has “cringe” made itself into Punajbi vernacular the same way a “swag”?

  38. “There is an upcoming Indian TV show called “The Archies” ”

    I am not sure why there is a such an opprobrium about this. The Mahabharata has been a base for many plays and shows in the West. Just strange to see Indians living, working and raising a family in the West criticize people actually living in India making a show with Western influence

    1. only peter brook. one more and gandhi/satyagraha. who else?. And this is not a play or a one off movie, it is a show in netflix.

  39. “Have studied abstract math at a pretty high university in famous department ect. Regarding Indian underrepresentation vis a vis other groups. The chinese and slavs just have more aptitude on average. Its a numbers game (no pun intended!)”

    If Ramanaujan is the infinity norm, the average Indian has a lot of mathematical ability. Indian kids genuinely interested in science do not typically move abroad.

    If you see the career trajectories of Indian teams at the international math olympiads, they tend to have deeper and longer productive careers in math than the teams from Russia and China.

  40. another correct prediction, jordan peterson and some christian thinker on impact of bible on India. missionary propaganda is on.

  41. An Indian-American drama unfolds thus –

    1. Thenmozhi Soundararajan (tweets as DalitDiva) is an American caste activist.

    2. Tanuja Gupta – a senior Google Employee, invites the above Diva for a talk at Google.

    3. After some internal deliberations, Google cancels the planned event.

    4. The Washington Post runs a long article (with quotes from the Diva and Gupta) insinuating that the CEO, Sundar Pichai (who is incidentally a TamBrahm) had something to do with it.

    This news is now filtering back to India, where Delhi commentators are now alleging that Tamilnadu and Madurai (Sundar Pichai’s hometown) has been at the top of caste atrocities always!!

    Meanwhile – Gupta-ji resigned her job at Google.

  42. @phyecho1

    …Hence, let’s be clear about this. ICM and IC quota is the only solution to all this. incentives for C, but not incentive for ending it is too dumb, Incentives for ICM and IC shall over period of decades end all this.

    ICM as a concept indicates that varna/jati were racial constructs, which they were not. The practical basis for varna/jati was always occupational – that is now both eroded and strengthened simultaneously by the circumstances of the modern condition.

    Today anyone in India can become a doctor, a farmer or an armyman. Although it is much more likely that the son/daughter of a doctor will become a doctor, the son of a farmer will become one most probably. But this is true in all parts of the world!

    So what exactly is the remedy for jati/varna? It depends on the observer – if one is following the colonial gaze, then it becomes a suppurating wound on the Indian psyche. People advocating ICM are firmly entrapped in the colonial definition of jati/varna.

    Just as there are perfect legal mechanisms to transmit wealth across generations, there is also a need to bequeath social capital and privilege across generations.

    At its root, what are anti-jati/varna protestors clamoring for? Stop bequeathing accumulated social capital and wealth to one’s children?? This is the very raison d’etre for Indian parents – to successfully ease their children into the complexities of life.

    I have seen some really bullshit prescriptions for ending jati/varna without really seeing what is inside the forest.

    The predicament faced by Asian Americans today is basically envy from the host society (Blacks and Whites) – who generally suck (with exceptions) at inter-generational transfer of social capital to heirs.

    Asians (including Indians) have evolutionary advantages in this area. It can be mediated by multiple mechanisms – varna/jati is just one of them.

    1. @Ugra
      Don’t support @phyecho1’s zeal but what you are saying is clearly bullshit.
      “ICM as a … condition.”
      There is a significant component of race.
      “Today …of the world!”
      Has profession in itself made marriage among kids of Chamar Doctors and Baniya Doctors as easy as Baniya-Baniya?
      “So what exactly… Indian psyche.”
      No it does not depend on any gaze. People marry within their caste, lower caste touch feet of higher caste, people practice untouchability, places like NAL and certain IISc departments were infamous for not letting in any non Brahmins.
      This is at the limits of obfuscation.
      “People advocating ICM are firmly entrapped in the colonial definition of jati/varna.”
      No they are calling a spade a spade.
      “Just as there … generations.”
      Individuals and groups with advantages could feel there is such a need but a country or the larger society that sustains these elites does not support it.
      “At its root, what are anti-jati/varna protestors clamoring for? Stop bequeathing accumulated social capital and wealth to one’s children??”
      No, we are saying for stopping discrimination on basis of one’s caste. Stop giving trouble to IC marriages. Not clamoring for anything, we have deduced from IC marriage trends today that in due time we will win.
      “This is the … complexities of life.”
      raison d’etre? really?
      “The predicament … to heirs.”
      Overwhelming number of Indian Americans become caste blind. This statement makes no sense.
      “Asians …one of them.”
      The costs are not worth the benefits.
      Groups with advantages will resist. Thankfully, democracy is a number’s game. Urbanization is already breaking the back of Jati-Varna apologists. Good luck trying to force 25-somethings.

      1. @Bhimrao

        Fact: Depending on convenience, ICM couples try and get their kids out of General Category.

        Parenting instincts are much stronger than teen ideals. Manu Joseph says that the biggest conservatives in India are parents (virtually everyone after a certain point).

      2. “Thankfully, democracy is a number’s game. Urbanization is already breaking the back of Jati-Varna apologists”

        There are people who have weird sort of eugenics and psychosexual take on this. The one with eugenics take claim that due to generations of endogamy and past occupations, IQ distribution is highly skewed across groups so ‘mixing’ of high and low IQ groups can flatten whatever little IQ peak that’s present. The ones with psychosexual take , like this guy’s comment
        https://twitter.com/handle_anonymus/status/1533519204426448897 (his OG tweet was over how many OBC and SC/dalit groups hate UCs groups to the core), claim that being unattractive and desire to be with girls of other groups is what drives many such people subconsciously to keep talking about IC/ICM all the time. @Bhimrao, what are your thoughts ?

  43. b j p has thrown nupur sharma under the bus. it is time that r s s gets one more shock that muslims will not fall into their lap even with all fine tuning by bhagawat.
    the sub altern hindu movement has gained its own momentum and is more muscular. it may not need r s s to guide it.

  44. Death threats take priority than ugra on this issue.

    BJP abandons its spokesperson who has been threatened with death/rape etc. Classic cowardice, predicted. Infuriated, nothing more cowardly than to abandon women threatened with violence. Bjp allows its workers to risk their lives and abandon them at will. workers in bengal, kp in kashmir, now own spokesperson. Use and throw, bait H lives, like in delhi riots. Sacrifice a few, this incites many, make merry by funneling the anger and incitement. No intent to solve issues. Win the next election and then another and then another. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/centre-changing-goalposts-on-minority-tag-leaves-supreme-court-fuming/article65400740.ece backtracks from granting H’s minority rights in many states.

    As to ugra bullshittery, In order to pass laws, one needs political solidarity. If it was a social capital, how come India offers constitutional reservations on this basis.How do you explain the previous tweet of it leading to division in a micro minority even in the us. How come India remains a third world country for all this long and this social capital has historically not served well and continues to elicit division in society and allows others to take advantage of the divisions as a consequence of this. How come significant percentage of people in kerala converted out of this “social capital”. caste breaks down the asabiya of H’s as a unified block. As I once tweeted a meme,
    “quick enemies are coming!”.
    everyone else: unite and stand together.
    Hindus: quick , divide ourselves and make it easy for them!
    Keep your bullshittery on this subject to yourself. You do the job of the enemy easier that way. Or perhaps you do not even possess the basic wisdom of when to shut up. In which case, I pity that people like you are on this side.

    1. @phyecho1

      Stop mixing up things. Arguing for ICM does not make one anti-caste. Neither does questioning dogmatic ICM make one pro-caste.

      The biggest barrier for ICM is that the children of such unions end up in the General Category or the paternal lineage today. As a result, there is very little traction among the incentivised jatis for ICM.

      1. @ugra
        Hence one needs a new category for ICM with incentives both political and professional to stay as such and not once again fall into paternal group.

        Fake atheist farhan akhtar, many hidden jihadis have showed themselves up now. We should remember this and also remember the way behaved in all this, especially NM and AS.
        It is a day of clarity for all. Perhaps this will lead to a more purer Hindutva party. Nothing radicalizes people than to see ordinary m’s show up their islamist zeal. It is an undeniable visible proof. What is unstoppable is India becoming a superpower, 25 yrs or 50 yrs, we will get there. What is also for sure is that oil will fall down and the education in many of these gulf countries is quite pathetic. Win first and then fight. I do hope Indian muslims will turn out for the better for over all good, if they fail this opportunity. Then I fear, India will no longer be “secular”.
        What I advocated thus far was to use small fires to prevent larger forest fire catching on . To prevent something worse for happening, one needs to relieve the pressure. This will only add more and more. 20 to 30 yrs. 2050. Also, state/bjp is has refused to condemn threats or make arrests or apply same law to go after those who mock hindu deities or call on M’ countries on persecution happening there.

        Also, some version of useful AI is already going to come. The advances are going exactly as i thought about. Language model leading to language and image, that leading to some motor control and now, getting groups of AI to collaborate using language with each other. Language seems to be the first base for humans in representing the world and communicating to each other.

      2. @phyecho1

        Arabs will find a way, they have diversified beyond the catastrophic failure point. In a hundred years even without oil Qatar-Emirates will be closer to today’s Singapore-Malaysia than Cambodia/Laos.

        Arabs are a old and wise people, they built Pyramids when perhaps the first brick of IVC had not been baked. The buildings and airports and ports that they have built will endure for a hundred years. Decay takes a long time if ever. Look at Chicago for example with its’ corrupt politicians and stagnant economy, but building like Marina City, 875, and Willis, all well over 60 yo. Still splendid, from railways to riverways a formidable city.

        Hoping others fall on tough times is not a good strategy.

        1. I am not hoping on others “fall”. I am betting on the relative decline and ours and others relative rise compared to them. It still comes down to talent.

          What I am pissed off is that NM and AM created the environment and now are abandoning these people. Cant think of a more pathetic bunch. One could have played all this in a cooler manner. Rise, win first and then fight. But they chose to turn election into everyday cockfight and cowardly abandon their own people. And even now do not condemn death threats or make arrests of those who do. Or arrest those who mock H dieties. You are responsible for the environment you created.

  45. Bjp is incredibly cowardly, did not just suspend but also released the address of the lady.

    1. Saurav would cause the mass cucking: “consolidation”

      Reality is that it’s a weakening and that’s pretty much it

    1. Not taking them lightly. See so many ‘sohni kudi’ Kurta Paijama + Jhumka from Fresno and chodu fatso truck drivers from Brampton on twitter hailing Bhinderwale. They will be dealt with. With baat or laat as needed.


      Fundamentals come before all these more ‘entertaining’ pursuits. I experienced how shitty India’s health infra is firsthand during Delta wave, experienced firsthand the horrible education, saw the mad rush in ‘campus placements’, travelled in general class where one can’t get up even to pee for 16 hours because the coach is 5X capacity, travelled on roof of buses, saw Indians literally crying and begging at American Embassy for visa.

      Dalo ahuti bhai log is anusthan mein. Theek karna padega sab. Banao companiyan, lagao paisa. Make kingdoms in new territories, IT-services/consulting and ass licking works for individuals not countries.


  46. BJP has thrown Nupur Sharma under the bus.

    Basking in the success of Indian Expats/Diaspora and everything is fine. But they serve their adopted countries. Our poor folks manually toil in Arab heat, and Arabs have threatened. No dignity in poverty.


    India-Euro/US love story is only till we are weak and poor.

    India should buy as much Russian oil as possible. Even take sanction every now and then to make a point.

    Bhai logg jaldi ameer bano. Trust in the financial markets, state monopoly on violence, severely punishing fraud, streamlining taxation, good-efficient governance in cities, and product based large companies.


  47. BJP is now firing its own members for “blasphemy” against Islam? This is the beginning of the end of muscular hindutva, isn’t it? Yogi won’t be kicking hindutva to the next gear and the future of Hindutva is probably just going to be rebranded Ganga-Jamuni-Tehzeeb.

    1. Interestingly, has Yogi ever made disrespectful comments against Prophet Muhammad? Comments against Islam or Muslims or Quran is one thing, but I think it should be clear to everyone by now that Muslims worldwide draw the line on ‘blasphemy’ against the Prophet.. there is precious little that would invoke condemnation from Arabs, and this is one of those instances where it will.

      1. People underestimate the losses BJP is willing to incur for long term gains. They know who gives them oil and how precious that is for India’s growth.

      2. “Muslims worldwide draw the line on ‘blasphemy’ against the Prophet”

        You are making this up. No one gives a rats ass about ‘blasphemy against the Prophet’ unless the target is juicy. Plenty of folks like Abdullah Sameer and Harris Sultan doing good work. French State had called out the pedo-slaver not that long ago. This is just the beginning of things to come in India.


        “who gives them oil”

        No one ‘gives’ us oil. Just like America does not ‘give’ India weapons. Indians pay for it through their noses at global prices.

        Not that long ago India showed it’s palm oil supplier Malaysia, it’s place but keeps mum on Turkey as we make money from them.

        The leverage most likely are our people in Arab countries.


        1. //You are making this up.//

          No. Indian envoys being summoned in Arab countries over comments made by some local BJP leader shows you I’m not making it up. Don’t know who Abdullah Samer or Haris Sultan are, I suspect nobody important because they could not generate any outrage.

          1. the extremely strong reaction of arab countries against the comments made by nupur sharma is quite perplexing. if i am not mistaken, she simply raised the most hackneyed, done-to-death topic of muhammad’s cohabitation with an underage ayesha. but isn’t this well known undisputed fact? in fact classical islam acknowledges that ayesha was underage when she was married to muhammad, and it is duly recorded in hadiths that most muslims deem authenticate. so what is the outrage about?

            in fact, on this very blog muhammd has been called a pedo at least 50 times, and nobody bats an eyelid. what is so special about nupur sharma’s comments? she isn’t even part of the government. just some party functionary. i hadn’t even heard about her before this controversy.

          2. All the gulf countries have faced domestic pressure right from the time, Kashmir issue started in 2019. During both the CAA-NRC movement, and recent Karnataka Burka issue, there was pressure on the officials to do something.

            So they need to let off steam from time to time. This whole issue is mostly a non issue, which gives them an easy win, and get back to collaborating with India.

          3. I am also quite surprised about this outrage in the Arab world (especially diplomatically) but I think it has to do with her clip becoming viral there and local pressure exerting on their respective governments. I take it with ongoing controversies about mosques in India, and this just added to that. The issue of Prophet Muhammad’s marriage to Ayesha is quite disputed but one thing the Muslim traditions unanimously agree is that she was married after she reached puberty, whether that age is 9, 13, 16 or 18, exact ages were never kept properly then (the hadith in Bukhari mentions 9, there are others that point to a higher age). So technically not really ‘pedophilia’ since she was not biologically a child, and marriage of girls at or soon after puberty was always the norm throughout the world..

            This topic maybe done-to-death in non-Islamic circles as a criticism of Islam, but most Muslims who are not exposed to these discussions would take the pedo insult quite literally since

            – it was not pedophilia (which is considered banned in Islam),

            – and it relates to two most revered personalities in Islam: Muhammad and Ayesha

            – and there is a recent history of controversy behind the two figures (starting with the fatwa against Rushdie)

      3. The bjp spokie’s defence is she quoted what is apparently written in quran and hadith in response to derogatory mocking of Shiv Ling.
        I am not sure the M side would be happy if blasphemy law gets expanded to protect hindu deities.

        1. No what she said was a direct quote. That is not wrong, whether it was a response or not.

          But ME has leverage with energy supply and our big diaspora there. Yes India pays but OPEC can screw us harder. That’s the calculation BJP is making. Maybe it is a bad one but these are variables

          1. These are the moments when you wish the Arabs had democracy. Imagine the Emir of Dubai campaigning for the Indian vote?

          2. @HJ wouldn’t matter because the Indians there aren’t citizens.

            Insulting people’s religion is a loosing game.

            It’s a dumb fairy tale. But it’s a dumb fairy tale dumb people are willing to die for.

  48. OIC raising shitstorm to Indian TV channel comments and BJP throwing Nupur under the bus are related to the ongoing churn in oil markets.

    There is an actual oil glut today in markets. But an artifical shortage drives prices upwards, courtesy sanctions on Russia, Iran and Venezuela. If Europe falls out of the Russian basket, then the Russian oil has to go somewhere – if it ends up in India, then ME players are the losers.

    Nupur is not the first nor will be the last to make such comments online. Thus a calculated move to take offence by the Arabs.

    I remarked earlier on this open thread that Gangetic folks have neither the willpower nor the brio to dominate even their local society. Very quickly you see a spillover into international affairs from a hyperlocal event.

    The unravelling of Political Hindutva will happen because of the pan-Indian burden to keep carrying water for Gangetic folks.

    Muslims living in the Gangetic regions successfully inject their international allies into local disputes. Gangetic Hindus cannot even enforce their own streets.

    Just waiting for the “More Hindu Warlord” Saurav to apply some icing on this cake 🙂

  49. The triumph one hears from IM on twitter is incredible to watch. Savarkar/ambedkar turned out to be correct. I am sorry to have harbored doubts and was at times quasi agnostic. I believed this problem could have been sorted out through education alone. It is not beyond doubt these are the very same people who created pakistan. Gaurav et al have been proven wrong. Harsher measures now seem inevitable.

  50. Lol Folks here seem to be more pissed than BJP and they are the ones who lost couple of spokespersons.

  51. I still hope with all my heart a peaceful resolution to all this is possible. It is not fear that bothers me, it is what it can make of all of us to accept that bothers me. As a student of confucius now, ethics / dharma is very important. One should not lose ethical restraint. In fighting monsters, we should make sure that we dont become one.

  52. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wql3KfLXaM
    kushal mehra’s pod cast cited. his guest puneet sahani says or rather proves that 5 k s which we all thought was mandated by guru gobind singh has no references.
    if this line is agreed, the supposed guilt of sikhs trimming their beard etc can be washed away…

    1. Sikh Rehat maryada of 1945 has codified modern Sikhism, since then only minor updates.

  53. While the right wing twitterati loses hope, and liberals exclaim about this ‘moral victory’, the liberals who can see a bit far than their nose, know what’s incoming.


    ‘To understand why this tactical reprieve should not make us complacent, we have to understand the BJP’s long-term strategy. It is what might be called a “heads we win, tails you lose strategy.” The strategy is this. Say things with impunity about minorities, show your toughness by baiting Islam. Convert tractable political disputes into a whole-scale ideological attack on Islam or Muslims. If you get away with it, you claim credit for showing the strength of Hindus, for a kind of tough bravado. If, on the other hand, there is a reaction of any kind, a push-back, you turn around and claim victim status. If impunity succeeds, you gain power. If impunity fails, you convert that into fodder for a feigned victimhood on which Hindutva thrives. And that is exactly how the BJP will play this humiliation in the broader poisoning of civil society.

    The purpose will be to make speech an object of competitive mobilisation and drive home one point: To re-instigate the view that there are double standards, that Hindu gods are victims left to fend for themselves, while the whole world rushes to defend the Prophet, using state power. So liberals will have to be careful about how to handle this trap. ‘

    1. If, on the other hand, there is a reaction of any kind, a push-back, you turn around and claim victim status.

      How did BJP claim victim status here? They just fell flat on their face and apologised profusely. The Nupur Sharma episode was just an L for Hindutva. It showed the limitations of the BJP.

      At some level, that’s even a good thing. India needs to get along with the Islamic world, if not only for oil imports but even more so because 40% of the subcontinent’s population is moslem.

      Besides, the OIC and other Islamic organs have shown remarkably little concern for Pakistan’s desperate pleading about isolating India due to the BJP’s supposed islamophobia. I suspect once this kerfuffle is done away with, they will continue doing just that.

      1. The BJP ‘can’ claim victim status by playing the whole ‘Muslims have extra-national allies’, plus having foreign nations browbeat a country has the same ‘back to wall’ effect. Imran Khan is playing a similar trope.

        The whole thing didn’t show the limitations of BJP. It showed the limitation of India. Any leader/party cannot transcend the inherent power of the nation it leads. Again, Pakistan recently found that out. We have been finding that out from Nehru’s time.

  54. Indian chattering class suffers from amnesia.

    A few weeks from now there will be another brouhaha. And depending on the offending party, some folks will become champions of ‘Freedom of Speech’ and others will plead exception to it. Then a few weeks later, the roles will reverse. And so on.

    Bunch of jokers.

  55. https://twitter.com/_sabanaqvi/status/1534045271948423168

    ‘We need to put this matter triggered by a former BJP spokie to rest and not gloat over nations with poor human rights records raising the insult to The Prophet. The issue of blasphemy takes us into a tricky terrain and it’s better to avoid going there as a multi cultural nation’

    ☝ As i said, no win is an unqualified win, no loss is unmitigated disaster.

    The liberals know what type of Pandora box the whole issue has opened.

    1. Saba Naqvi is a Lakhnavi, she knows the mentality of Gangetic Hindus inside out – offer the slightest hint of a climb down and Gangetic Hindus will lap it up like a great win – exactly what our More Hindu Warlord is doing here.

      1. https://twitter.com/johnstanly/status/1534065909328773120

        ‘From a diplomatic pov, the govt did the right thing by distancing itself from the controversial remarks made by 2 ruling party officials & taking action against them. India shouldn’t allow it to affect its overseas ties. But taking it beyond the realm of diplomacy is problematic.

        For two reasons. One, the whole outcry over the so-called blasphemy has no locus standi in an open democratic society. Two, most of the countries that attack India over these comments have draconian religious laws and do not even respect basic human freedoms .’

        Is someone name Stanly Johny also a Lakhnavi? But its expected. Dravidians butt in issues which they have no comprehension about, or stuff which doesn;t concern them. But this is what we have to live with.

      1. Opinions should be weighed with the *individual* achievements of people who make them.

        Mass media, ‘intelligentsia’, ‘andolan-jeevis’ are full of wind socks making appropriate noises. From S. Gupta to Dhume, folks will say whatever is convenient.

        I agree with Ugra when he says, “slightest hint of a climb down and Gangetic Hindus will lap it up like a great win” (except of course the ‘Gangetic’ bit).

        Muslims have crossed a Hindu red line of extra-territorial loyalty (again). All this is what Yadav considers ‘appropriate noise’ to assuage Hindus. I can write these articles 3 weeks before Yadav or Dhume do by just anticipating the winds.

        Yadav knows what has happened will be used as a ‘Shah Bano’ in future. When ‘Shah Bano’ happened it was not that big a deal either but Hindu Right theorists (folks who don’t have a stomach for rioting, street enforcement but think their opinions matter) NOW make a big deal out of it to serve their cause in online bakchodi.

  56. it appears the only govt.department active in tamil nadu is the hindu religious endowments dept. sad to see that dravidians waited 10 years for this.

    1. I am just surprised that it took Dravidians so many decades for this. Half expected it to happen during Periyar’s time itself.

  57. “For two reasons. One, the whole outcry over the so-called blasphemy has no locus standi in an open democratic society. Two, most of the countries that attack India over these comments have draconian religious laws and do not even respect basic human freedoms .’”

    Morons parroting this Western nonsense are too obtuse to understand India or the Arab world.

  58. The Anglo world (5-eyes folks) go easy on Muslims and Blasphemy(no support when Macron went crazy) because they have bigger fish to fry. Their immigrant portfolio is diverse and they believe they can digest the Muslims who do immigrate. The French and the Indians don’t have bigger fish to fry. Indians don’t have the ability to bomb Yemen or Somalia, never needed to take on USSR with jihadism, don’t print Petro dollar. Stakes are low just like France. What screws us up are our diaspora.

    1. Anglo world will patronize whoever has no chance of being a rival or upsetting a power balance. Domestically, means indigenous peoples and blacks are at the top. French are odd in that they wager a multi-polar world might suit them. They have a a fair bit of cultural and political capital that could be leveraged in an Anglo decline.

  59. https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/tamil-nadu/2022/jun/06/hindi-language-of-underdeveloped-states-will-make-us-shudras-dmk-mp-creates-row-2462394.html

    “Hindi language of underdeveloped states, will make us shudras”~~TKS Elangovan
    A based&redpilled take from…. DMK? lmao Even the Dravidians are starting to embrace dharmic banter, thx Hindutva.

    “Many said you will get jobs if you learn Hindi. Is it so. Look here in Coimbatore, who is selling pani puri.~TKS Elangovan”
    And he refuses to apologize lol Nupur Sharma 0, Elangovan 1

      1. Like the the famous S Park quote on World of Warcraft Addicts

        “How can you kill that which has no life”

        Anyway, you’d be surprise at the Hindu devotion at my local S Indian temple. Saurav, I am surprised you haven’t seen it in America

  60. The Nupur Sharma episode vindicates the “trads” and their critique against the “raytas” who they predicted would collapse once any significant pressure was applied. Which is what happened.

    But being right isn’t enough. Trads are still too radical to take power, even among other Hindus. Many of them despise the anti-caste rhetoric of the BJP, which is actually one of the great achievements of the 2010s for the Indian RW.

    Moreover, many of the memes about love jihad are patently ridiculous. Hindu-moslem mixing is very rare, even in liberal metropolises.

    A bigger issue is more mundane: fertility differentials. The fertility patterns in Kerala are such that it will soon be a moslem-majority state among the newborns.

    This is simply a price of modernity. Moslems are more “backward” but backwardness has advantages: fecundity. Hindutva keeps chasing ghosts about a non-existent “love jihad” while ignoring the elephant in the room: low Hindu fertility.

  61. IMO, the whole prophet saga has shown that no matter how big your economy is, the two most important things are energy independence and the ability to generate jobs for your population. If you can’t do either or both, then it’s better to keep shut.

    India should’ve started looking at investing and researching in alternative fuels long ago, especially green hydrogen which is estimated to be commercially viable somewhere in this decade when the price reaches $1-2 per kg.
    As for oil and gas, I’m sure there’s some oil lying around in the Andamans, as it’s a subduction zone. The govt needs to let private companies start exploration instead of giving everything to ONGC and state owned companies.

    Lastly, I think one positive outcome of this whole saga is that BJP is unlikely to move any further right, esp if you look at Mohan Bhagwat’s recent speeches. They’ll also probably try and distance themselves from Pragya thakur, Yati narsinghanand et al. We need some reconciliation at some point.

  62. The righta/ doubtful /agnostic secular types like myself are more hardier than you think. we can dream scenarios “trads” cannot even conceive of.
    if Interested i shall let it be known.

    1. Yeah Trad casteism is more dangerous to pan Dharmic unity project than radical Islam is at times. At least the latter is a unifier

    1. Seems like a reasonable take. There is very little in common between Muslims from the same region, let alone Hindus.. I mean I have seen Bangladeshi Muslims hanging out with Pakistanis (had a couple of close Bengali friends) but never seen Bengali Hindus mingling with Gujjus or Punjabis.

      1. “never seen Bengali Hindus mingling with Gujjus or Punjabis”

        Why do you keep making up bullshit?

        Don’t I defer to your judgement and experience (expertise?) on things I don’t know, things like Pashtuns or Pak Army?

        Sometimes it helps to keep quiet. Makes one appear more intelligent.

        Bengalis are ordinary everyday Hindus to the point I find it laughable to explain myself. There is unprecedented levels of ‘mingling’: from intermarriages with Khatris, to Marwaris restoring temples in Bankura, to ISKCON being centered in Mayapur, to Ramakrishna Mission, to Bharat Seva Ashram and others.

        I and Gujju-Tamil peers of mine have been surrounded in a sea of Bengalis and Telugus.

        Atleast think before you speak.

        1. What language do you communicate in? Gujjus at least have taken up Hindi, but Bengalis are averse to it even if they understand it. If your answer is English (a foriegn lang), then you already conceded his point.

          Come to Canada, where there is a significant mass of 4 Indian communities living in close quarters, Gujjus, Punjabis, Bengalis and Tamils.. and you can see this division as clear as day. Gujjus and Bengalis don’t mix at all, nor do Gujjus and Tamils, nor do Bengalis and Tamils. Punjabis are the only group that mingle with all the other 3.

          1. “What language do you communicate in?”

            What are you talking about dude? I find it absurd even having to explain this. It is retarded to even to say this aloud: “Bengalis are averse to it even if they understand it.”

            I have multiple parts of my family in Bengal (and TN-Karnataka-MH + all over Hindi belt), visit often. My hometown neighbors were Bengalis. My college senior-junior-friends-teachers-advisors-janitors-cooks were all Bengalis. I lived in Bengal for a long time. From Digha-Gangasagar-Sundarban to Dareeling-Siliguri-Cooch Bihar, from Drugapur-Asansol to Kolkata and everything in between from Bolpur to Bishnupur to Nabadvipa, from Kopai to Subarnarekha to Rupnarayan to Hoogly to Teesta, I have experienced more of Bengal than any other state save UP.

            “Come to Canada”

            Come to India.

          2. “Bengalis are averse to it even if they understand it.”

            Hindi-Hindi-Hindi, Hindi works everywhere in Bengal.

          3. You are UPite, not Gujju. I was referring to the tweet about Bengalis and Gujjus not being sem2sem.

            UPites, Biharis, Punjabis, these north Indian groups don’t have strong asabiya or nor a strong identity since they are not one ethnic group nor one historical language. They also happen to be in the middle geographically. This is why they think other groups with greater ingroup cohesion are like themselves (sem2sem). Gujjus, Bengalis, Tamils they have greater cohesion and more distinct identities which they will try to emphasize at every turn.

            So I don’t see it that way, and hardly ever saw the aforementioned groups mixing that much outside India (firs gen immigrants)

          4. @Bhim

            There is nothing amusing in the tweet u posted. As i have said, less-Hindu ethnicities, have limited understanding of Hinduism. Which is somewhat understandable considering they either ‘adopted’ Hinduism , or they are today majority non Hindus (Sindhis, Bengalis, Punjabis etc)

          5. I was just giving my credentials about understanding Bengal and Bengalis. I explicitly said me, Tamils and Gujjus lived in a sea of Bengalis and Telugus.

            Bengalis are present in hoards all over India from Gujrat to TN. Madraasis/Gujratis being richer in general don’t go out as often within India but in Bengal’s colleges there are plenty of them. Marwaris (discount Gujjus or vice-versa) are present in hoards in Bengal.

            Gujjus, Marathis and Bengalis are ordinary North Indians, no different from Biharis or Marwaris. All of them can speak Hindi.

            Won’t expand anymore.

          6. Yeah I don’t agree about first gen identification stuff among gujus. They are heavily assimilated even among hindi speakers from the get go. Even great grandparent generation gujus speak Hindi.

      2. Canada sounds weird. I have seen Bengalis, Punjabis, and Gujaratis all mix in USA. Some Sikhs may separate a bit more than Hindus. But they still mingle.

        But yes there is some Aryan Dravidian divide in older generation. In younger, they all mix. Actually Christians do remain insulted a bit too.

        Go to any college with big Indian populations. The Indian associations are very mixed. I have friends of pretty much every major every single major immigrant demographic. There is a pan “browness,” much to the chagrin and disappointment of some ethnic chauvanists.

    2. ‘ Even our main gods or festivals aren’t same.’


      Gajab chutiya hai janta.

  63. https://twitter.com/AsimAli6/status/1534508019719229440

    “And it further posits the Hindu view of religious tolerance- believing all religious paths have the same validity- as the only true and universal notion of religious tolerance. This paradoxical gambit opens up Christianity and Islam to charges of being fundamentally intolerant.”

    night is day, up is down.

    “It does not imply mocking the God of others, just believing in the truth of your God,”

    Such shameless lies in the face of overwhelming evidence. Pay back in the same coin. It is what it is.


  64. massive muslim protests. if the kafirs go on provoking muslims, how long these protests can go on.
    there was a time that every dec 6th (day of babri demolition) used to be a day of violent protests, now hardly any one notices a stir.

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