172 thoughts on “Open Thread, 03/16/2023, Brown Pundits”

  1. The United States and its allies dropped more than 337,000 bombs and missiles on other countries between 2001 and 2020. That is an average of 46 per day, day in day out, for 20 years.

    But the US had already committed via prepositioning troops and weapons. It would be too costly to keep them in the area if they missed the spring invasion window to wait until the fall. So evidence be damned.

    Rather than paying attention to the impact of the conflict on Iraqis, the US press and pundits promoted jingoism, including an early use of cancel culture in calling for boycotts of French restaurants to punish the French for France having led a group in the UN Security Council to try to set parameters on using force. I was shocked to find that supposedly sophisticated and independent minded (and largely Democrat) New Yorkers fell in line, putting quite a few eateries out of business.

    March 19th marks the 20th anniversary of the U.S. and British invasion of Iraq. This seminal event in the short history of the 21st century not only continues to plague Iraqi society to this day, but it also looms large over the current crisis in Ukraine, making it impossible for most of the Global South to see the war in Ukraine through the same prism as U.S. and Western politicians. (FYI Leigh Stenson).

    For the rest of the world, the peaceful economic rise of China and the Global South has created an alternative path for economic development that is replacing the U.S. neocolonial model. While the United States has squandered its unipolar moment on trillion-dollar military spending, illegal wars and militarism, other countries are quietly building a more peaceful, multipolar world.

    The Not-So-Winding Road from Iraq to Ukraine

  2. whats this, i talked of this couple months back, rajamouli. watch bahubali, second, lots of people think this is propaganda movie. That was not the intention. It was meant to be a kickass movie along the lines of inglorious bastards. Everyone knows this is not true history. one makes movies with x,y,z as baddies. In this case, it was the british. The director told the writer explicitly that not to write anything negative about british in this song. Celebrate one’s own instead. new yorker pretty much interrogated him , his caste, his view on hindutva etc.

    On a more important issue, gpt 04 has come to be. One wonders what gpt 20 is going to be like in 10 yrs

    1. Amazing information. I really enjoyed reading this thread and the discussion by the people. As someone who is involved in this “niche” for many years. I would like to refer NFTs and cryptocurrencies It’s not only focused on discussing the topic inside out but also on “benefits”. Hope everybody enjoys reading the blog.

  3. Was going through Razib’s tweets today.


    “what iranians and arabs call them”-> more important than what anyone calls Pakistanis is what they themselves are. They aren’t separate from Indians in the extended South Asian distribution. Distinct but not separate. So they take a derogatory epithet referring to effectively their own group and then use it on those like them, it is a complete lack of self awareness. Even if not a single Arab/Iranian/anyone else used it on Pakistanis, it wouldn’t make a difference- they would still be hypocritical because they are a part of the group that they are maligning. This is a problem for them because the alternative is to malign specific subgroups they could single the random subgroup out, but they want to malign all of it.

    1. Their most specific hate is for Hindu Gujarati baniyas. Pak media keeps mentioning evil Hindu Baniyees and global Yahudi conspiracies. The country now basically is a mixed Jihadi and Muslim Punjabi feudal land owning military junta state. Imran Khan is being wrecked because he is trying to change it even a little bit.

      Their greatest disgust is with dalits, hence why even Christian convert one’s there are treated badly and manual scavenging jobs so “Christians only.” They are also sold most to China.

      1. And if the West’s primary goal in offering debt relief is to sideline Beijing, as it appeared in Zambia, then that will mean a drastic scaling back of infrastructure projects replaced by austerity.

        She wrote, “our research shows that Chinese banks are willing to restructure the terms of existing loans and have never actually seized an asset from any country.

        Zambia will also cut fuel and agriculture subsidies. So instead of infrastructure investment and social spending, the country gets austerity.

        The US effort to sideline China in Zambia comes at the same time that Washington is trying to tighten control over resources in the region.

        Imran Khan shifted the country’s foreign policy towards a closer alliance with Russia and deepened ties with China, prompting concern and anger in Washington. (And Victoria Nuland visited Pakistan and SL, With many carrots to Pakistan’s military, they overthrew Khan, In SL the Aragalaya protests started and ended with resignation of the Rajapakses)

        According to Reuters, total Sri Lankan debt to Chinese lenders totals roughly 20 percent of the country’s total debt. Fake claim by Reuters, its 13%

        (Sri Lanka) The structural consequences of over four decades of neoliberal policies have exploded into view with the receding welfare state, a ballooning import bill, and investment in infrastructure without returns, all of which relied on inflows of speculative capital.

        Chandra Joshua FYI


        1. The current economic crisis in countires like Pakistan and Sri Lanka are becuase of thier own mistakes. Pakistan has had 22 or 23 IMF bailouts since independence. It literally broke Argentina’s record for most IMF bailouts. The Pakistani elite seem to think that they are entitled to money from Western taxpayers or the oil rich Gulf states to fund their lavish lifestyles and large military budgets.
          Most of those Chinese infrastructure projects in Pakistan or Sri Lanka were never economically viable. Building a few railways or roads or power stations in Pakistan was never going to increase Pakistan’s exports enough to pay back the foreign debt. Those Sri Lankan ports were never going to be profitable.
          In China in the past you could build more infrastructure and expect the economic growth generated to more than pay back for the debt incurred. That may not be true in China now and it certainly isn’t true in most of the BRI coutries . The Chinese made the decision to invest in these projects and they have no one but themselves to blame if they lose their investment.

    1. @Saurav
      Even the collaborator and defeated ethnicities

      Would you think the Sinhalese are defeated ethnicity*. For sure the Jaffna Tamils played the game and lost around 15th century to the Portuguese. The Sinhalese kept playing one European against the other and survived in the Kandy/Hill Country. Then by inheritance thru the maternal line, the last three kings in Kandy were Telugu. The last of the lot, Kannasamy took on the name of Sri Wickrema Rajasinghe.

      The King ordered the children of Adigar Ehelepola and his wife Ehelepola Kumarihamy to be drowned and children beheaded. Even worse the childrens heads were put in a motar and pestle and pounded

      Ehelepola Adigar turned traitor and led the Brits in to the Kandyan kingdom

      *Are Sinhalese (or Sri Lankan Tamils) a separate ethnicity by DNA. No, they are more close to each other than any Indian. However, culturally the SL Tamils are more close to Tamil Nadu.

    2. are there any non-defeated ethnicities in India?

      Maybe Nepalis are the closest in the Subcontinent.

    3. Perhaps ‘ethnicity’ is the wrong word, and group is more accurate.

      Also Europeans defeated everyone in the Subcontinent, so no group really sees themselves as ‘defeated’ by them. Once Europeans came into picture each ‘Indian’ group sees victories of the Europeans against any other Indian group, as their own victories.

      Example would be Sikh victory over the N-Indians in 1857 war, The N-Indian victory over Afghans in 2nd Anglo-Afghan war. Or the N-Indian victory in destruction of Sikh power.

      I wouldn’t count either Nepalis or Sinhalese in any category, as throughout their history they only really fought among themselves , before they Europeans arrived. So the sample size of this group is really small.

  4. A little sad I did not make it for the Royal Thomian. This the 6th year since did not make it for the match since I came back to SL in 2010. Issues of money and not being able to spend without thinking.

    Recall when I was in pre O/L (grade 10) it was a two day match then (1974 I think). Age 15. I went asked my hero cousin Robin Barr-K for a donation. He gave a LKR 200 check. I gave it to my classmate Romesh Arunachalams mother. Romesh is Sir Ponnambalam Arunachalams grandson, not very Tamil though.

    So we get to the match, Romesh is drunk and vomited. We throw him under the Jeep and proceed to the grounds.

    After lunch at the match we get back, drag Romesh out from under the Jeep. Romesh’s mother had promised lunch. So we dusted down Romesh made him look presentable and went his home. Romesh’s mother took one look and said he had been drinking. We said he had only one beer and could not handle it.

    Anyway fast forward, my cousin Robin Barr-K’s check bounced. So I went looking for Robin. Tracked him down to Havelocks Sports Club. Robin said not to worry “I was anticipating profits”. Just present the check again.

    I get a few drinks at Havelocks on Robin (remember I am about 15). The I get on Robin’s bike a yellow 125cc Yamaha. Note: This was pre 1977 before liberalized imports.

    Robin just gets going, fast against the office traffic. Robin could have just onto the proper lane. Did not.

    Anyway Robin ended up in the UK in 84. Fought skinheads. Had head injuries and died at around 50.

    Love you my hero cousin Anton Rabindranath (Robin) Barr-Kumarakulasinghe

    ROYAL & THOMIAN big match papare

  5. India topped the medal table at the U17 wrestling championships.


    Some thoughts

    – India does well at free style sucks at Greco-Roman rules which makes sense given traditional wrestling in India is closer to freestyle (legs used)

    – Women did esp well, maybe thanks in part to Phogat sisters being a role model and Bollywood biopic made on them making it more popular for girls to get into the sport

    – I don’t see slant weight class related correlation.

    1. Almost every single one is a Jaat from Haryana. Other communities hopefully get inspired. I don’t buy idea that only that community from magical high steppe is the only one with potential. They are role models for rest of Indian youth in sports.

      What’s surprising is how classically “Indian looking” the male Haryana origin wrestlers are. Like Deepak Punia can pass in South India.

    2. Some notable non Haryana Jaats

      “Suraj Vashisht became the first Indian Greco-Roman wrestler to clinch a gold medal at any World Championships after 30 years. The last time, an Indian won a gold medal at the World Championships in Greco-Roman wrestling was in 1992 through Pappu Yadav, who claimed top honours at the U20 level. ”

      Suraj sharma, vaibhav narayan patil l, and Kumar Lalit are some others.

  6. After the Oscars’ Controversial ‘Naatu Naatu’ Performance, South Asian Dancers Are Fighting for Representation

    Nearly a week after the Oscars, the hurt and disappointment of a missed opportunity still weighs heavily on the minds of some South Asian American dancers, who are setting out to ensure it never happens again.

    Many in the South Asian dance community were dismayed by the astonishing dearth of South Asian representation in the “Naatu Naatu” performance at Sunday’s Academy Awards. While singers Rahul Sipligunj and Kaala Bhairava were on hand to perform their hit tune from Tollywood smash “RRR” — which made history for India that night by winning best original song — they were joined on stage by not a single dancer of South Asian heritage.


    1. In Sri Lanka Bhairava is considered an evil/dangerous god.

      So looked up the name Kaala Bhairava, which I assume means black bhairava

      Bhairava (Sanskrit: भैरव lit. ’frightful’) or Kala Bhairava is a Shaivite and Vajrayāna deity worshiped by Hindus and Buddhists. In Shaivism, he is a powerful manifestation, or avatar, of Shiva associated with annihilation.

      1. “So looked up the name Kaala Bhairava, which I assume means black bhairava”

        It is “Kaal” (काल) Bhairav so ‘death” or “end of a time cycle”.
        Not “Kaalaa” (काला) as in Black.

        Bhairiv and Bhairavi are Tantric deities.

        Tantric margs are heterodox to different degrees.

        At the extreme they take stuff that is considered taboo or shocking stuff (death, alcohol, sexual impropriety etc) and make it sacred as a means to break attachments.

        At a non-initiated, sort of superstitious layman Hindu level some Bhairav temples offer alcohol as Prasad, they believe Bhairav then fulfills wishes.

  7. I recently saw (most of) RRR with my Caucasian girlfriend, and the whole movie was awful. It was basically like watching a video game.

    Moreover, I’m quite embarrassed at how one story of the movie was about how a British woman has a crush on an Indian guy.

    I think that the whole Oscars are just using this movie as a tool to promote how woke they are.

    1. the whole movie was awful. It was basically like watching a video game.

      I agree. South Indian movies are horrible, lots of violence and not at all believable (like a video game). (I get forced to watch some movies on the buses that go toward the North).
      Even the Oscar winning dance was more movie tricks, than actual ability to dance.

      In a sense much like WWF, where all those watch/fans know its fake but are still avid fans. Or for that matter mindless violence movies like Texas Chain Saw Murders.

      I guess its what you grow up with.

      1. I wonder why no Indian cinema can make a movie remotely comparable to the Brazilian movie Ciudad De Dios (City of God). There was one professional actor, the rest being amauters, and locals from the favelas.

    1. There will be an incoming mass conversion to Sikhism. This isn’t bad on face by any means. But it won’t be sincere. Canada already has enough trouble handling immigration from S Asia. A right to return situation would increase immigration exponentially. Everyone, by hook or crook, will show whatever documentation to get to the first world. It won’t be politically popular among Canadians. Wokeness has to be pushed extremely hard for it to be. And Jagmeet is already testing everyone’s patience. If they didn’t like Quebec go, they won’t let this happen.

      1. Actually the article is more modest. Only suggesting a right to return in the far future not right off the bat.

        Initially the Sikh community would be granted some level of autonomy within the Canadian on the parcel of land that is purchased. This would within the Canadian political framework, SSNA would be recognized as a nation within Canada similar to the Quebecois.

        But yes eventually as it gains full autonomy the immigration policy will be the SSNA’s prerogative not Canada.

        1. I think the ideal location for Sikh State North America (SSNA) would be Surrey district in British Colombia. It borders the USA and has access to the Ocean, so it will allow for maximum autonomy.

          It is already about 30% percent Sikh, but I project this will increase a lot as a result of the peaceful population exchange from places like Yuba City and Brampton.

          1. Sikhs could also mass-migrate to a temperate climate with great agriculture. Perhaps the plains of Mississippi fits this for many reasons:

            * It’s very river-rich in that area, just like the Land of 5 Rivers
            * Exceptionally rich soil
            * flat plains like Punjab
            * temperate climate

          2. Us migration policy won’t favor them, unless educated. Things are already moving towards more academic merit based. That’s why Canada is preferred for more open policies. Largely S Indians taking advantage of US migration. Also fake degrees are harder to get away with. Punjab has to transform its education system to compete for US immigration. Chain migration is there. Patels use it a lot. So there is that option for Sikhs.

        1. Regardless, Canadians aren’t exactly going to give up terrority, at least I don’t think, for this type of thing. Quebec has a stronger case. I may he wrong though. Canadians aren’t Americans.

          “In the aftermath of the close result, the federal government, after unilaterally recognizing Quebec as a distinct society and amending the federal constitutional veto procedure, referred the issue to the Supreme Court of Canada, which stated that the unilateral secession contemplated in the referendum was illegal.”

          Even if passed, courts may have messed with it.

        2. It was a non-binding referendum which was later ruled illegal by the Canadian supreme court and there was some question of how what % constitutes a clear majority.

          The francophone districts did mostly vote yes, the Anglophone, Inuit, and recent immigrant communities voted to stay with Canada.

          1. There is definetely a non-zero chance of this happening. Canada is probably the country with the weakest national identity. The only thing holding it together is the maxim of being more liberal than the US. If Sikhs push it hard enough and with sufficient numbers, I can see something like this happening in two decades. Accuse Canadians of racism or something for not allowing an autonomous Sikh state and they will bend over backwards to appease you. Very easy to manipulate these people. But my God, SSNA is a terrible name. Call it Sikhistan lol.

          2. ppl assuming CA is very big and there won’t be any pushback to giving some uninhabited piece of land. Most of habitable/warm/populated CA cities are close to US border. If our Khalsa brother’s recent behavior is anything to go by they will ask for the choicest regions which will mean uprooting of other ethnicities. Its a pandora’s box probably meant to stir up more trouble in PB.

  8. All in all, I don’t think (and hope) this will ever happen. One possible scenario in my mind is something like Mormonism in Utah but I don’t see anyone benefiting from of a Sikh state in North America asides from India.

    1. I agree.

      Personally I think the best approach for a Khalistan is to consider the background of the first people initiated into the Khalsa (Panj Pyare ) by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

      I think somewhere along the way the Khalsa has failed to live up to the Guru’s vision which was clearly something more than just a Punjabi ethnoreligious thing.

      But just as a thought experiment, what seems like a better place to live between these two:

      1. A nation state in North America with the Pacific Ocean on one side and two developed countries and potential trade partners on the other sides

      2. A nation state in the Indian part of Punjab landlocked between 2 dirty, corrupt. third world poor countries.

      I understand Punjab has historical and sentimental importance. But leaving that aside I think a Surrey based state would be better for its inhabitants.

  9. the dance scene from the clip is a historically accurate reenactment of the ethnogenesis of the kalash

  10. Looking more into this, there are only 25 million Sikhs and their TFR is only 1.6(lower than Sweden). SSNA is toast but quite likely Punjab will become the New Bihar.

  11. After Mearsheimer’s piece a few months warning dems/administration not mess up relationship with Hindu RW in IN, Walter Mead weighs in. In his WSJ paywall piece, apparently he compares bjp/rss with Muslim Brotherhood, Likud, CCP. tbh not a good league to be put in. Some RW handles are going gaga over the “objective” assessment 🤦🏽‍♂️. This reeks of “marks” not figuring out the bad-cop/bad-cop routine of nyt+ liberal media & WSJ +RW pundits.

    1. shared on my FB page.
      Hilarious unless of course exposed to credit suisse.
      Did you know Credit Suisse used to be Swiss Bank.

  12. Kavadi Dance in the Tea estates. The tea estate community is recent (150 years) recent South Indian immigrant.
    In comparison with Kavadi (also for some Hindu God) in the deep South among the Sinhalese* is
    a) Almost all Sinhalese) males are barebodied
    b) no women in the processions (some have gay” females” eg Hikkaduwa Seenigama Devala Perahera)

    I think being bare bodied is possibly a sign of confidence. The Southern coast line has been exposed to
    a) European Invasions
    b) post independence European Tourism.

    Even in NYC after work hours and to local pub I used to wear a sarong. In summer hang out on the street in sarong and bare bodied.

    One time between consulting gigs a local Puerto Rican/Black guy who noticed I was not going to work, offered to get me a job at the local sausage factory. I was not offended in the least, considered to have “assimilated/blended” in to the neighborhood.

    *The Sinhalese in South are considered the bastion against the defenders of the Nation. However, much of the coastline is of recent South Indian Immigration. Very obvious, they are taller and more muscular than the historic Sinhalese in the interior. Not denigrating the interior Sinhalese, they were more subtle and thinking people.,

    St Cooms Talawakela Thiruvila of Srilanka

  13. Found what I assume is a Sinhalese result (last name Amarasinghe). They seem to be like generic South Indians,
    Admix Results (sorted):
    # Population Percent
    1 S-Indian 56.89
    2 Baloch 34.12
    3 SE-Asian 2.56
    4 Caucasian 1.93
    5 Beringian 1.86
    6 SW-Asian 1.17
    7 Pygmy 0.67
    8 Siberian 0.33
    9 Papuan 0.24
    10 American 0.22
    Single Population Sharing:
    # Population (source) Distance
    1 sinhalese (harappa) 3.41
    2 velama (metspalu) 3.6
    3 tamil-nadu-scheduled-caste (metspalu) 3.76
    4 karnataka (harappa) 3.76
    5 tamil-vellalar (harappa) 3.81
    6 velama (reich) 4.14
    7 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 4.22
    8 tamil-nadar (harappa) 4.51
    9 dusadh (metspalu) 4.88
    10 ap-reddy (harappa) 4.88
    11 lodi (reich) 4.9
    12 kurumba (metspalu) 5.16
    13 tharu (metspalu) 5.28
    14 tamil (harappa) 5.75
    15 naidu (reich) 5.88
    16 up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) 5.95
    17 singapore-indian-a (sgvp) 6.3
    18 kanjar (metspalu) 6.5
    19 dharkar (metspalu) 6.65
    20 kol (metspalu) 6.69

    Might be of interest to Razib and sbarrkum

    1. Yes, Sinhalese and SL Tamils are quite generic South Indians closer to Dalits and Scheduled castes.
      Thats because there is a strong substrate of AASI.

      Like I often say, the only country of Dalits/Sudras and ruled by Dalits.

      Quite often Indian Tamils call Sinhalese, Dalits as a slur. No sweat Sinhalese are doing better,

      1. @sbarrkum
        >Quite often Indian Tamils call Sinhalese, Dalits as a slur. No sweat Sinhalese are doing better

        Really?? I’ve only ever heard anything remotely like this from Tambrams speaking about the Malaysian/Sing Tamil diaspora, never towards Sinhala ppl.
        I feel like you might overestimate how much Indian Tamils care about ethnic conflict in SL. It was a conflict that I had at one point a fair amount of curiosity about, having friends on all sides, and I’d rarely find TN people who even remotely cared. If anything the Jaffna diaspora look down on the Indian Tamils for being sellouts, and brainwashed by Indian nationalist narratives, and with an internalized inferiority complex.
        The street cadre of some poltical parties who’d occasionally show solidarity with the SL Tamils are fundamentally unserious, and have long moved on to some other issue.

        1. The big sample of 3-4 Indian Tamils who comment regularly on a Sri Lankan blog/online paper Colombo Telegraph.

          I think one was a Tamil Brahamin.

          Agreed my exposure Tamil Nadu opinion is extremely limited.

        2. “I’ve only ever heard anything remotely like this from Tambrams speaking about the Malaysian/Sing Tamil diaspora”

          Can you elaborate more? Tambrahm’s speaking about diaspora?

          1. @Yadav
            A single anecdote i could share for now; Tambram friends living in singapore on the fact that there is visible Tamil culture in that country remarking “yeah, but they are so ugly looking. who knows what kind of origin they had”
            They would much rather be associated with non-Tamil Indians than the darkies.

        3. WTF..Yuck to their opinions.
          Sounds like pure jealousy, probably irritated by the lifestyle/achievement of Non Brahmin Tamils.
          I’m currently living in Malaysia because of my studies but they’re not “ugly” looking LoL. They looks much better physically and phenotypically than TN Tamils ( lot of them are very tall,it’s a rarest trait in TN and lot of Indian states lol ).

          And Tambrahm’s mostly are dark skinned too. Just kanging over their 15% Sintashta is irritating.

          1. I tend to agree. broadly, tamil working class diaspora in general are better built and put together. It makes some people uncomfortable when the nurture of a different society allows one’s “inferiors” to leapfrog you. It pops the balloon of presumed superiority, it also makes one confront the failure of indian society to nurture its ordinary folk, and that just about anywhere is a better place for a obc/sc to grow up.
            Its a huge opportunity to cultivate this untapped potential. Indians need the humility to recognize that there are lesson to be learned not just from the US/UK/Germany ect, but also from societies like Thailand/Malaysia/SL/Mexico

  14. We/I (uncles for most in this group) grew up in a era where interpretations of music of the world by the west was considered original. eg Rock and the Blues

    Now with the spread of open media, some of us realize that much music was historic and part original native music.

    A Baul musician.
    Bauls are considered the original Rock Musicians.
    to Quote
    “the Bauls reject possessions on religious grounds. They travel throughout India on foot carrying only their musical instrument. The Bauls create their songs spontaneously in front of their audience. They want to transport their public into another world.”
    Much similarity and related to Gypsy Music

    Sound like a Rock Musician

  15. RaGa conviction is wrong move and counter productive. Allows him to paint himself as victim + same “hate speech “ weapon can be turned against bjp .

  16. My take on “AASI” is that there wasn’t just one singular population but multiple South Asian hunter gatherers scattered all over the region, with varying builds frame and facial phenotypes. I think SAHG is just a general term for these people and not a hard-set ethnicity and I think it’s the same way in North, South and Central America where “indios” or Indigenous folks vary from the midget types to being very tall and robust like the Plains folks of America and here in Canada too. On a phenotype note, yeah Cree Anishinabe etc folks look very different from the Eskimos/Inuit tribes up north in Alaska and they look different from the Central American types who look different from the ones in Bolivia for example.

    The general similarity is there I mean and ofc that would exist with the SAHG populations(maybe not as big of a range due to constrained geography?idk) but I do think there were different groups of SAHG.

    1. Good points. Though one thing that is still non-intuitive to me a bit about genetics is lack of correlation between genetic diversity in a population and phenotype diversity.

      So for eg. Two random San people from different tribes are extremely diverse genetically but all look broadly similar.

      AASI are relatively diverse genetically as well compared to non-African populations but not sure if there is that much climate variety for selection pressure or enough natural obstacles to prevent interbreeding / allow for founder effects.

      In the present day there are a lot of sub populations and geographic differences, but not sure to what extent that stuff is just due to caste vs geographic barriers.

      1. Phenotype is a tiny proportion of genome, so it can biased easily in either direction. Razib written about it before. Selection for sure has an impact. Don’t worry…we will soon see my AASI is > your AASI Kangz soon enough

        1. Don’t worry…we will soon see my AASI is > your AASI Kangz soon enough

          Are we heading to Black Power and Black is beautiful.

          1. Rig Veda like xxxx

            My soma shake bring all the pastoralists to the IVC yard cuz my aasi is better than yours, my aasi is better than yours

            Guru Steppani

  17. Why doesn’t Indian cuisine have soups(Rasam is the only thing that comes to mind)? I thought it might be the warm climate but Southeast Asians consume a lot of soup.

    1. Well there is also Kadhi.

      I think possibly many stews and soups stem from using leftovers (for eg bones to make broth).

      Hindus traditionally have taboos against reusing leftover food (Uchchhishta)

      1. Kadhi is better than Tuh-air-ni dar.

        All dals are lentils soups. We have a lot of souls. We just eat the soups with rice and wheat

        My parents had a rule to make a different dal every day for the 7 days of the week.

        1. Food classification can be quite blurry but if you eat a “liquid food” with something else then it’s a curry or a stew. To count as soup it should be eaten by itself not poured over rice or as a dip for bread imo.

          1. Good point, the discrepancy could just be because Indian curries and stews are not commonly marketed as soups.

    2. Soups in SEA cuisine could be function of Chinese influence rather than climate.

    3. I get the overall point, but just offering a few examples of indian soups that I regularly see. Attukal soup / Paya; Sherwa/ Saaru (in KA we have quite a few Saarus that are not just eaten with rice but also sipped on. (I wouldn’t calls these rasams); Kolhapuri Pandhra Rassa; various Shorbas and Salan in the nawabi/ muslim cuisines.
      I wonder if soup in general makes less sense to vegetarians, in that its meant to extract more nutrients from the bones and trimming of the animal. A veg soup is just a matter of taste, to warm you up and to help make carbs palatable.

      1. Growing up we ate soup for dinner about once or twice a week. What we called veggie soup was, veggies, lentils with beef marrow bones (never chicken). I think there was a dash of coriander. Dipped bread or toast coated in butter (real before 1973 or say, margarine later). The butter would melt in the hot soup and really great.

        Not quite Western, nor quite Sri Lankan. Nor do I think it was common among most Sri Lankans. Apparently quite the norm for my maternal grandparents.

      2. I would think a definition of a soup is a liquid/semi liquid dish that needs a spoon. i.e. cant eat it with hands.

        I think another another type of soup is conjee (rice in a liquid).
        Another weekend special by my mother. Rice (red rice at home) first cooked then coconut milk and the juice added. At table add jaggery or sugar according to taste.

        Another common in farming communities for breakfast. Previous days red rice, with water, lime juice, salt, shredded onions and small green peppers.

  18. Saw a Chakrabarty Brahmin sample earlier today, could be modelled as 64% UP Brahmin+36% Bengali. Was certainly interesting to me because that was an insanely high Bengali figure,.

          1. That’s a pointless statement considering g25 has a shitton of outlier ish samples

  19. @PencilMan, then what are you basing your claims off of? Do you have a large collection of WB Brahmin samples at your disposal? I’m referring to the median West Bengal sample on G25, so outliers should have a very limited impact. 30% is not rare whatsoever, I’ve also seen it in quite a few personal kits.

    1. I’m talking about personal kits. I’ve seen quite a few Bagchis and Mukherjees and shit who are literally 92%, 95% UP brahmin+ 5-8% Irula/Pulliyar(high SAHG group). Yes, some have turned out to be more mixed but then again, some have been ultra endogamous too

      1. I’ve literally never seen a single Bengali Brahmin who could be modelled as 95% UP Brahmin ever. The most I’ve seen is 85%. Not even the most UP Brahmin shifted WB Brahmin on G25 scores like that, as well as personal kits.

      2. I’m actually Bengali Brahmin myself and all the kits in my family score 25-35% Bengali Bangladesh + 65-75% UP Brahmin. 90%+ UP brahmin is exceedingly rare.

        1. Which ancestry test did you use? There is no “Bengali Bangladesh” option in 23andme, it’s Bengali AND Northeast Indian. People from Nepal Assam elsewhere score highly in this component. Even Nepali Brahmins score highly in this component.

  20. I’m talking about personal kits. I’ve seen quite a few Bagchis and Mukherjees and shit who are literally 92%, 95% UP brahmin+ 5-8% Irula/Pulliyar(high SAHG group).

    this is a bullshit result produced by using weird outgroups that don’t produce a good population fit. if you don’t understand that, you’re a moron. seriously. smh

    hurricane is basically right and you are wrong.

    if this comment elicits an outburst of vulgar idiocy that you are prone to engaging in i’ll just ban you.

    1. Razib,

      LMAO Razib you can ban me if you want but it’s not like I can’t use VPNs or something so frankly, I don’t give a shit.

      I was playing nice before but it seems like you let the Indians talk all the shit they want and only chastise me when I reply back so fuck that.

      Also no it’s not my models. It’s Oracle stuff on HarappaWorld so something you and your buddies created lol

      Here’s one example. I don’t go around collecting Brahmin kits. 95% UP Brahmin with a bit more SAHG represented by the Irula. It’s so “unmixed” that they’re the same distance from UP Brahmins as they are from the WB Brahmins. Literally 1.5% NE/SE Asian combined. Somebody who is 95% UP Brahmin….is a UP Brahmin.

      Admix Results (sorted):

      # Population Percent
      1 S-Indian 43.32
      2 Baloch 33.08
      3 NE-Euro 11.5
      4 Caucasian 5.84
      5 Siberian 2.03
      6 American 1.12
      7 NE-Asian 0.94
      8 Mediterranean 0.85
      9 SE-Asian 0.59
      10 Papuan 0.58
      11 E-African 0.15

      Single Population Sharing:

      # Population (source) Distance
      1 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 3.34
      2 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 3.52
      3 vaish (reich) 3.83
      4 bihari-muslim (harappa) 4.09
      5 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 5.37
      6 up-brahmin (harappa) 5.52
      7 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 6.01
      8 maharashtrian (harappa) 6.69
      9 meghawal (reich) 6.91
      10 gujarati-b (hapmap) 7.24
      11 gujarati (harappa) 7.56
      12 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 7.91
      13 ap-brahmin (xing) 8.11
      14 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 8.23
      15 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 8.26
      16 srivastava (reich) 8.32
      17 tn-brahmin (xing) 8.45
      18 rajasthani (harappa) 8.47
      19 bihari (harappa) 8.53
      20 up (harappa) 8.72

      Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

      # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
      1 67.8% srivastava (reich) + 32.2% haryana-jatt (harappa) @ 1.78
      2 92.5% maharashtrian (harappa) + 7.5% finnish (1000genomes) @ 2.09
      3 89% rajasthani (harappa) + 11% russian (hgdp) @ 2.13
      4 90.6% rajasthani (harappa) + 9.4% finnish (1000genomes) @ 2.16
      5 89.9% rajasthani (harappa) + 10.1% lithuanian (behar) @ 2.16
      6 88.7% rajasthani (harappa) + 11.3% mordovian (yunusbayev) @ 2.18
      7 93.4% karnataka-brahmin (harappa) + 6.6% finnish (1000genomes) @ 2.27
      8 89.3% rajasthani (harappa) + 10.7% russian (behar) @ 2.28
      9 62.1% haryana-jatt (harappa) + 37.9% madiga (reich) @ 2.3
      10 60.6% haryana-jatt (harappa) + 39.4% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 2.3
      11 60% haryana-jatt (harappa) + 40% sakilli (chaubey) @ 2.31
      12 94.8% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 5.2% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 2.31
      13 94.8% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 5.2% irula (xing) @ 2.34
      14 58.8% haryana-jatt (harappa) + 41.2% chamar (metspalu) @ 2.35
      15 52.4% haryana-jatt (harappa) + 47.6% kol (metspalu) @ 2.35
      16 58.3% haryana-jatt (harappa) + 41.7% kamsali (reich) @ 2.36
      17 91.4% maharashtrian (harappa) + 8.6% russian (hgdp) @ 2.36
      18 89.3% rajasthani (harappa) + 10.7% belorussian (behar) @ 2.38
      19 90.8% up-brahmin (harappa) + 9.2% paniya (chaubey) @ 2.38
      20 82.2% srivastava (reich) + 17.8% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 2.39

      1. 91% UP Brahmin and 9% South Indian Tribal is probably not all that different from 75% UP Brahmin and 25% Bengali. This obviously makes more sense given the history. Also I think HarappaWorld doesn’t do an amazing job resolving minor East Asian. This of course, would also affect the oracles and not show the obvious Bengali admixture.

        1. but it’s not like I can’t use VPNs or something so frankly, I don’t give a shit.

          VNP doesn’t give you an IQ boost. your comments veer regularly into retardation so you’d get banned again and again. it’s probably in your nature.

      2. Modelling Bengali Brahmins as UP Brahmins + South Indian tribal is super disingenuous because you could conceivably model non Brahmin Bengalis as UP Brahmin + South Indian tribal (+ obvious East Asian) so you’re inflating the UP Brahmin admixture. Not to mention, using 1 sample is silly. As you just said, it’s equidistant to UP Brahmins and WB Brahmins. Do you not see the implication in this statement? The average WB Brahmin is farther from UP Brahmins than this sample.

        1. Yeah except you CAN’T for us Banglas lol that’s the difference. There is no historical basis for it. There is, however, historical basis for UP Brahmins migrating from Kannauj/whatever to fulfill priestly duties in West Bengal.

          Also, no it’s not disingenuous. If you’re 95% UP Brahmin on these models, you ARE a UP Brahmin. Like I’m not even joking, this is basic anthropology here. You are genealogically different, objectively.

          Also, why should I assume that there was mixing with Bengali people and not some tribals that were assimilated? What’s disingenuous about that? 95% UP Brahmin as a percentage is very high. Plus, even from my visits to Bangladesh way back I know for a fact that there are tons of tribals there and I mean tons so West Bengal should not be different

          1. Pencilman, you missed my point with this. I’m saying modelling Bengali Brahmins as UP Brahmin + 10% tribal to show how “UP Brahmin-like” they are is disingenuous, because the non UP Brahmin part of their “heritage” could be modelled similarly. So you end up getting something like 70% UP Brahmin + 30%*(60% UP Brahmin + 30% Tribal + 10% East Asian). By modelling Bengali Brahmins as UP Brahmins + tribal, you’re making an individual who is 70% UP Brahmin 30% Bengali (of the modern Bangladeshi variety for modelling purposes), look 90% UP Brahmin, when that is almost certainly not what actually occurred.

            I’m not sure how it would be possible for Bengali Brahmins to be UP Brahmins who admixed with tribals (who have little to no East Asian), and then somehow picked up 2-6% pure East Asian separately from Bengalis. How does that even make any sense, when there is a simple, parsimonious solution that Bengali Brahmins are a product of UP Brahmins and Bengalis.

            As Razib said, it would be absolutely silly for Bengali Brahmins to have East Asian admixture without having Bengali admixture. It simply doesn’t stand the test of either occam’s razor or reason.

        2. this is correct. you can model north indian populations as weird shit like cambodian+isfahani persian. same principle.

          pencilman may actually not be very smart if this isn’t obvious idk

      3. It’s Oracle stuff on HarappaWorld so something you and your buddies created lol

        why are you explaining shit to me you low IQ moron. i don’t use “calculators” I actually test my own models.

        irula is a ‘bad fit’ because the exogenous east asian in bengalis of ALL castes produces weird results. garbage in, garbage out.

  21. for the non-morons out there who want to want to understand without reading through calculator gibberish: bengalis are almost all ‘off-line’ and shifted toward east asian populations on the kalash-irula axis. this is true for bengali brahmins too, but diluted considerably. about 3-fold dilution.

    1. To the onlookers reading this exchange, just gonna say here that I’ve literally never disagreed on this point Razib is talking about I’ve literally seen the same as well. Bangla people(Bangladesh, short form) are SIGNIFICANTLY off-cline though like COMPLETELY.

      People in West Bengal are a mixed bunch but they’re definitely more Indian cline shifted genealogically but yeah they can be off cline too but not by such a significant margin. This depends on background too (Ghoti/Bangal) as I’ve seen results for folks descended from Bangladesh who are ofc shifted to us like no shit

      My qualms was with the Brahmin stuff lol not this

      tho dont know if I’m banned so dont know if this is even gonna post or not so eh

  22. My qualms was with the Brahmin stuff lol not this

    the constant loling makes you seem like an immature retard, which you might be.

    more seriously, bengali brahmins are off cline. do you agree or disagree? it’s obv when i look at the data. yes, it’s subtle and doesn’t jump out, but it’s clearly there. or, have you never run a PCA on the data yourself?

    People in West Bengal are a mixed bunch but they’re definitely more Indian cline shifted genealogically but yeah they can be off cline too but not by such a significant margin. This depends on background too (Ghoti/Bangal) as I’ve seen results for folks descended from Bangladesh who are ofc shifted to us like no shit

    there’s no “genetic” us vs. them. it’s clearly a cline. in contrast, almost no biharis have e. asian ancestry (only seen it in Muslims where it was probably turkic).

    1. It’s a cline yes but I think it’s undeniable at this point that West Bengal has much less Mong than Bangla folks as well as higher SAHG and Baloch. I’d say they are the intermediate between us Bangla folks and the Indians

      re: Bengali Brahmin
      Visualization wise? It’s slight but shouldn’t be too significant to push them completely off-cline unless the Bengali Brahmin in question has significant Asian, as a component. Maybe you’ve seen Brahmins with an elevated Asiatic component so that could be but as you’ve seen from my earlier posts, some of them have negligible amounts of this like the Banerjee guy with a whopping 1.5% NE/SE Asian.

      This is contrast to the around 14% Tibeto-Burman that Bangladeshi folks have, according to formal academic studies. It’s a bit of a different thing in our case. I’m from Dinajpur(Rangpur Div) and I score 17-18%. Razib, you’re from Comilla and you score 17% on g25

      1. why are you telling me about bengali genetics? the people at sanger who looked at the tower hamlets sample called ME to consult on what was going on after they got the first results.

        i think here you are showing just how you are like indians no matter how much you protest: you are trying to obfuscate something straightfwd by yammering on and on. there are some simple facts here that all the bullshitting won’t avoid

        1) bengalis have e asian ancestry that’s a cline from the west to east (low/high)

        2) bengali brahmins are distinct in having much lower e asian, but that’s a function of UP brahmin like ancestry

        3) they clearly almost always have residual east asian ancestry distinctive from any other brahmin communities outside of the himalayan or assamese ones

        this isn’t complicated. all the g25 results or whatever won’t change any of this and it’s straightfwd.

        as least in the previous comment you pulled back from sounding like an immature retard (“lol”), which is good, and indicates you have a modicum of self-control.

        telling me stuff that i knew a decade ago won’t change any of this.

        1. lmao wtf are you talking about? You asked me a question and I discussed it tf do you mean “telling you” you literally mentioned the cline so I talked about it
          Nobody’s obfuscating anything. I don’t even contest any of what you said because I literally say the same thing and pointed out what the percentage of the Mong component was amongst Bangla people using an academic study.
          Please tell me where I was “bullshitting” because nothing I said was obfuscating anybody about anything.

        2. There is “flight from AASI” dynamics as well. Those harping on e asian ancestry in Bengalis should look at the fate of Rohingyas in Burma/Myanmar. Or better yet, meet a Burmese or Thai and harp on shared ancestry 🙂

          1. Bhumiptura,

            another fantastic and snarky comment from an Indian. Very nice. Expand on that point about the Rohingyas.
            Rohingyas have 25-26% Asian heritage on average. What are you trying to imply here?

            The Burmese treated them badly but hey do you really get to talk? You Indians really rape and kill Dalit boys and girls on a regular basis just for existing even though they’re the same race as you. I mean I just find it rich of you to bring up the persecution of Rohingyas when you guys do the same and worse to people of the same RACE as you.

            Also, rational Burmese/Thai people already know about their South Asian heritage, they’re not stupid. I’ve seen posts on r/23andme and other sites, they’re not surprised when they post their GEDmatch results or ancestry results. We’re obv not the same people

  23. Bengali samples range from 4-20% East Asian. They sure cluster more around the 13% Mark, but to say any of the lower end ones are not Bengali doesn’t make sense. How is a specific East Asian amount the definitive Bengali profile, when the amount isn’t fixed itself?

    All Bengalis without East Asian will be having some Bihari counterpart. It’s obvious.

    1. Bangladeshi’s are not scoring that low at all lol 4%? That’s more West Bengal shifted. Bangla folks score 13-14% on average. West Bengal scores far, FAR lower. I’ve literally seen Noakhali and Rangpur samples and shit scoring 17, 18, 19% easily.

      At this point, it’s very clear that Bangladeshis are a separate ethnicity, genetically speaking. Some West Bengalis with origins in Bangladesh score like us, yes. I think somebody like Satyajit Ray whose family lived in Mymensingh for hundreds of years would be similar. This, however, contradicts nothing I’ve already pointed out before this comment.

      The people in Bangladesh that score like 9% Asian which is on the low end themselves always have sort of family history from like West Bengal and shit, just from talking to them about their results.

      Also, what an utterly braindead comment. “How is a specific East Asian amount the definitive Bengali profile, when the amount isn’t fixed itself?” lmao what? Are we supposed to have carbon copy results or something, dumbass? No shit lol it could be 11% it could be 15% it could be 12% but 13-14% is the average.

  24. Interesting developments in Israel esp. the defection of some security leaders to the protesters. Is this the reason why bjp is rethinking Old Pension System.

  25. You Indians really rape and kill Dalit boys and girls on a regular basis just for existing even though they’re the same race as you. I mean I just find it rich of you to bring up the persecution of Rohingyas when you guys do the same and worse to people of the same RACE as you.

    we are the same race as them. your total obstinacy on this point is very bizarre.

    1. yeah yeah all white people are the same, all blacks the same, all asians the same etc etc
      Bangladeshis aren’t going around hunting down Dalits for being Dalits, Razib. We might be part of the same race as the Indians the Sri Lankans the Pakis etc but that doesn’t make us the same. This just doesn’t happen even though I noticed a significant amount of tribals and other population when I visited the motherland. Furthermore, as you already Bangladeshis have no caste structure in our genetics/structure unlike the Indians and Pakis. This is a non-issue for us and you know it. The nexus in our genetic structure is the geography/zones, as you already know.

      1. My neighborhood club has organised a D-hunt for the coming weekend. It’s all planned and very nice. I have two helpers – the Bangladeshi will polish my chariot wheels and the Srilankan will carry my tea/ samosas. The guns and machetes – I will carry myself. R1a bros, please DM me. J2/L guys, please excuse.

        1. Srilankan will carry my tea/ samosas
          That would be a bad move. Sri Lankans specially as a group dont make good docile menials.

          They will either want more pay or something, and if they dont get it maybe assassinate you or take all your stuff and leave,

          Sinhalese were taken as indentured workers to Australian sugar plantations, In a few month they had rebelled and petitioned the Aus govt for pay and better conditions. They got what they wanted, but the planters let them go as too expensive. So the probably blended and assimilated into Australia

          Vaguely remember a similar story about Sinhalese being taken to South Africa.

          Chaps who joined the Brit Army rebelled and tried to take over Cocos Islands

          1. Sri Lankans specially as a group dont make good docile menials

            Apparently they don’t understand sarcasm either.

            On a serious note, is this why the Chinese bring their own labour for working at SEZs in SL?

      2. Pencil man
        Yes it is horrible for Dalits in India. Please tell this to Rohingyas passing through BD on to India seeking refuge. Also pass this on to millions of other BDs. Much obliged.

        1. Lmao tell them yourself. Millions? Kek. Funny how the indian.government is never able to give hard evidence about that when asked by the Bangla government. .
          This ain’t a Mexico US case where there are big economic differences cartels and official documentation and evidence of illegal immigration from ICE the mex government etc.
          You deluded fucking pajeet. See what I mean Razib? These Indians make passive aggressive comments about Rohingyas outta nowhere and then they deflect to other shit to talk trash when I was discussing Bangla genetics. Obv not my fault and ofc Im gonna reply back with “vulgar profanities”

          1. WRT to this:

            “ These Indians make passive aggressive comments about Rohingyas outta nowhere and then they deflect to other shit to talk trash when I was discussing Bangla Bangladeshis aren’t going around hunting down Dalits for being Dalits, Razib. We might be part of the same race as the Indians the Sri Lankans the Pakis etc but that doesn’t make us the same.”

            They are responding to this not the genetics stuff:

            “Bangladeshis aren’t going around hunting down Dalits for being Dalits, Razib. We might be part of the same race as the Indians the Sri Lankans the Pakis etc but that doesn’t make us. ”

            Have be respectful to get respectful treatment from others.

  26. banned pencilman for using the word pajeets. it’s just too cringe. like a taiwanese guy ranting about “chinx”

    fine if he comes back via VPN and doesn’t act like a retard. but i doubt he can help himself, i think that might just be him on ‘normal’ mode. sad

  27. Here I am talking about the coming possibility of AGI. geoffery hinton said, it could happen by 20 yrs. Many here are full of morons still worrying about bs. Guys, atleast up your game and worry about AI’s being used/ abused from here on.

    World is going to be different from here on. Geoffery hinton said, this is like another industrial revolution, impact of electricity and the idea of us being wiped out was not inconceivable.

    We need a permanent on continous blog on AI/AGI developments and social implications from here on razib.

  28. “This summer may push India closer to the limits of human survival. Rising temperatures are forecast in the coming weeks after India experienced its hottest February on record. The region is at serious risk of wet-bulb if global temperatures continue to rise.” @PGDynes

    wet bulb temperature is the relative temperature of thermometer when covered with wet cloth , as the wet cloth dries due to heat, the temperature of thermometer decreases due to evaporative cooling. But that depends on humidity. If humibidity is high, this wont happen . hence high heat in places like saudi is more tolerable than in places of high humidity.

    Pause Giant AI Experiments: An Open Letter
    AI leaders here are worried. when was the last time experts called for 6 months moratorium on progress out of fears of their own accomplishments?. last time was during the development of nukes.
    I have personally realized that talking endlessly about genetics, iq etc takes one down a dark path. talking about things that can equip us to be better has a positive effect.

    1. Could be the reason why modi is pushing for millets. They can be grown in arid climates as well. Free/cheap rice and wheat through PDS can come back to bite us.

      1. the quantity of millets produced can never match the quantities achieved in rice and wheat cultivation.
        modi’s move is more of a fad, also it may help him connect with some voters of north karnataka.

        1. Dude north KA is not that important that he will go to UN to declare international Year of millets. Even south KA has ragi consumption in rural areas. RJ, GJ, MH , TL also have large arid areas where millets have historically been consumed. Even if 1/3 of the population switches to millets it can reduce the pressure on wheat/rice.

        2. @brown
          The yield on a crop like jowar might be 40% that of rice and 60% of wheat, but the key is inputs and soils. The vast majority of lands in india are unsuitable for optimal wheat or rice cultivation without over-allocation of water and other inputs. Much of the struggle of farmers is that they are cultivating what would have been considered wastelands 150 years ago. Because of 6-9X population growth in arid regions, new land has been taken under cultivation with the hope that replicating traditional methods will have both the profitability and risk profiles of cultivation on legacy tracts. This isn’t working out.
          Millets aren’t just a yield game but a hedge and a way to offset regional trade imbalance. Doesn’t make sense to be over-dependent on highly subsidized wheat from the north and rice from AP.

          1. my experience of eating some of these millets in india…
            1. jowar and ragi are almost main stream in north and south karnataka, and these complement rice. so almost mainstream…
            2. the other millets are really hard. it takes hours of soaking and intense cooking.
            3. ragi and jowar are soft compared to other millets, and probably hence their acceptability.

          2. Brown@,
            Making jowar roti is not easy and if present urbanization trends continue, it may die out in couple of generations. The alternative maybe to use jowar in a porridge form.
            Otoh pearl millet (sajje roti) is slightly easier to make since it is more sticky. Tastes better with sesame seeds.
            Millets in general are a hard sell for urban crowd.

          3. @brown
            navanakki is quite decent consumed in uppitu form. preferable to rava personally because it has a nice bite to it.

            demise of jowar rotti will be a civilisational trauma. I’ve never felt more discouraged than after imagining these droopy jawed porridge eating descendants

      2. Millets, eg Finger Millet (Sinhala: Kurakkan .Hindi (I think):Raghi quite a fad in now among yuppie type Sri Lankans (formerly considered low class village food)
        *Gluten free (marketed to western tourists as well)
        *Low glycemic index (good for diabetics)
        *High Fiber (good for older constipated types)

        Porridge with milk tastes like chocolate. A little cocoa powder or cooking chocolate makes it even better.
        Roti, Pittu, Sringhoppers (indi-appa) the variety is as endless as wheat based products.

        Often grown in the dry zone of SL after the Nov-March Maha Rice season in the Rice field. Used to be a staple of the slash and burn type (chena) cultivation.

      1. Previous response got lost.
        The other judge is a her not him. Wouldn’t be the first time that members of a target group cheer lead the attack on said group assuming their privilege/ally status or order imaginary woke points will shield them from any harm. Usually they turn out to be just useful idiots.
        Btw both judges are progeny of former SC judges.

    1. No one knows. The Amrit pal guy keeps showing up in surveillance videos. Today he released a video himself asking for help from sgpc. Wait and watch.

  29. Millie Jackson; The queen of Risque.
    I now take a lot of her advice and parte

    I first heard her on SL Radio probably late 1970s. I think it was “If Loving You is Wrong”. When I used to remark she had a smooth voice, laughter. To most Olivia Newton John type singing was best and smooth.

    Millie Jackson All the Way Lover

  30. Trump indicted in America.
    Rahul Gandhi indicted in India.

    I see calls for a stronger opposition in India, including potential calls for foreign intervention to restore democracy.

    Meanwhile no one questions that 1 party seems to have captured all the important institutions in America’s two party democracy.

  31. ON Agi, I am terrified about the nature of the issue. I didnt care about the problem, thinking it wont be here for next 50 yrs. Now, i dont know. I wish we all thought about this problem more deeply. Solve this problem, we shall solve everything else. Fail to solve this prblem, it might just be that nothing will matter anymore.

    The nature of influence of intelligence is so huge that it cannot be contained like nukes. nukes can only do damage in a grotesque manner. Intelligence is like a scalpel and a nuke, all powerful and nuanced at once. It is not like a game of chess either, where you have 2 players and can get a draw. In a multiplayer world, AGI might have no stable solution for peace with more than 2 players having access it each. It means, after first 2 times its created, no more can be allowed?.

  32. Razib,

    (Revisiting the PIE/AIT question)

    In this Kushal Mehra podcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9uLqwQV3T0), Niraj Rai seems to be saying that R1a is more diverse in India compared to West Eurasia, that there is no meaningful (statistical) variation of R1a distribution among various castes, and that these lineages are deep-rooted in the subcontinent (like 12k years ago).

    This seems to contradict what you’ve said on the topic, unless I’ve misunderstood you. What I’ve got from your discourse on this topic is that R1a in India is relatively recent (~4k years, followed by rapid diversity). Could that be because he has a much larger data set? Rai also asserted that we need millions of samples before we can say anything definitive about the population history of a country as large and diverse as India.

    (Unfortunately for comprehension purposes, Rai is speaking in Hindi throughout, so you probably won’t follow it. Relevant content is in the 30-40 minute mark. Other Hindi speakers can listen, and corroborate or contradict what I’ve written.)

    1. In this Kushal Mehra podcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9uLqwQV3T0), Niraj Rai seems to be saying that R1a is more diverse in India compared to West Eurasia, that there is no meaningful (statistical) variation of R1a distribution among various castes, and that these lineages are deep-rooted in the subcontinent (like 12k years ago).

      chaubey and now rai have been saying this for 5 years but the data/paper never gets published. so don’t ask me this again.

      Rai also asserted that we need millions of samples before we can say anything definitive about the population history of a country as large and diverse as India.

      this is false. statistical power.

      1. chaubey and now rai have been saying this for 5 years but the data/paper never gets published.

        Thanks. I’ve read your comments about this in the past but didn’t know the paper still wasn’t published (I guess you’d have posted about it had they done so.)

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  34. was wondering if this war, the west is making russia loose all its sloth and making it an effective fighting force with abundant ‘ match practice’.
    the way russians are thinking on their feet is amazing. using drones, refitting old tanks, making most most modern western weapons look inadequate.. (javellin et al)
    yes, west is also testing its systems, but their soldier is ????

    1. @brown

      Taleb’s antifragile theory at work. Systems exposed to small amounts of danger consistently develop robust reaction mechanisms.

  35. # girmit
    demise of jowar rotti will be a civilisational trauma. I’ve never felt more discouraged than after imagining these droopy jawed porridge eating descendants.
    lol, making jowar rotti is not rocket science. some other user group will pick up say deep south ladies/lads??.
    interstingly these days, some are rolling jowar rottis like chappati and not ‘beating it’ as is the tradition.

    1. Brown,
      Steaming the jowar flour in pressure cooker and rolling might turn out to be saving grace.
      Making jowar roti the traditional way is not rocket science. It is just that urban folks will not find the time and patience for making it. You can roll out 2-4 chapatis in the time it takes for a newbie to make one jowar roti.
      Lol on southern ladies/lads picking it up. Why would Folks who are traditionally used to rice which is much easier to work with, go and pick up a dry land crop.

      1. I don’t see it as just a time issue. Broadly speaking, anything that requires skill and finesse is on its way out. Being able to make jowar rotti without parboiling the dough or mixing it with another glutinous flour for shaping, and still getting it thin enough to bloom on the tava is a matter of family reputation.
        I’m a fairly practiced cook and wouldn’t consider it an easy thing to make.

    1. Indians are definetely acting like the new Jews. Rich and subversive. But the difference is, if he was a Rosenberg, only the extreme racists would know that he was a Jew and to the normicons he would look like a regular white man. But given that he is a Roychowdhury, its clear to everyone what he is. Keep up like this and its not gonna end well for us.

          1. well couple of your comments on the geopolitical situation wrt ukr, cn etc were almost read from neocon/GAE line.
            I am reminded of a scene from “good shepherd” movie where matt damon character replies to Joe Pesci what WASPs have with ” We have USA, the rest of you (italians, irish, jews, blacks etc) are just visiting”.

          2. Well I have said before that I sympathize with Russia and initially supported them but the facts on the ground have favored GAE so far. I don’t believe there is any point in whats right or wrong wrt geopolitics. The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must and all. So far GAE is the strong and the anti-GAE axis is the weak.

  36. prabhu chawla is not happy with jaishankar.
    ref# https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2023/apr/02/weak-diplomats-sabotaging-vishwa-guru-push-2561745.html

    …Unfortunately, S Jaishankar comes across as an arrogant diplomatic genius specialising in undiplomatic offensiveness. It is on his almost five-year uninterrupted watch as India’s diplomatic goalie when Indian diplomacy has scored the most self-goals and failed to check extremist effervescence…

    i tend to agree, at times jaishankar is a bit jarring

  37. Amazing information. I really enjoyed reading this thread and the discussion by the people. As someone who is involved in this “niche” for many years. I would like to refer Oxford Brookes University London
    It’s not only focused on discussing the topic inside out but also on “benefits”. Hope everybody enjoys reading the blog.

  38. jds and congress politicians in karnataka are making the state parochial, by politicising any and all issues as north vs south etc. the latest is the advent of amul milk in karnataka. amul is being opposed as being gujarathi, greedy of gobbling up nandini, the karnataka dairy.
    cogress is no longer the antional party it was once here, and bjp has taken that role.

    1. Don’t know man, bhimrao bitched a lot (seemed like he had mental issues), although Prats was cool. But truthfully many BP comments feel like theyre coming from low IQ people, or from people with emotional problems, or both. The only bright high IQ guy on here who didn’t sound like a psycho was that Pashtun dude who used to leave interesting long comments. If he reads this, please come back (I always learned something, and you’re an excellent writer)

  39. when i cofounded this blog in dec of 2010 i had no kids and was going to grad school. life is way different. surprised this blog is still around 13 years later

  40. Agreed. Not meant as a swipe against the blog owners. You guys have done really well to provide this platform on South Asian topics.

  41. Hi,

    I’m mostly an observer of this blog, but I would like to ask one question. Does anybody know the email of Seinundzeit (the Pashtun guy), I need to ask him some questions. My email is [email protected] (ik it’s a bit of a weird name)

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