Open Thread – 04/14/2023 – Brown Pundits

Since Pandits and Kamboj always ask me if it’s true if they’re Iranian, Iran through the ages: civilization’s eternal crossroads and Pre-Persian Iran: from the invention of agriculture to the Aryan onslaught. Part 3 and 4 will land next week.

I have a post (right now at 5,500 words) that I’m working on relating to caste, the CISCO case, and the US, for my Substack. I want it to be my “last word” on the topic…but basically, the issue here is that Leftist-prog types who believe in the total malleability of culture somehow also believe that Indian Americans are moving their society in toto to the US without modification. This is obviously false. You can speculate why this is happening, but it’s just a fact.

Also, Saagar Enjeti is asked about his caste on Red Scare. It’s kind of a joke, as the hosts are pro-Indian (especially Dasha). I am hopefully going to on Red Scare in the next six months to talk about genetics (last time I was in New York Anna K. was out of town).

82 thoughts on “Open Thread – 04/14/2023 – Brown Pundits”

  1. It’s interesting to note that Most punjabis baradaris cluster closely
    together. 25-35% steppe and approximately. 16-20 ASSI% (26-34 South Indian on Harrapa). This is based on hundreds of samples on anthrogenica from various parts of west and east Punjab with the exception of chamar/mochi and dalit/chuhra groups who are a small minority. Another exceptions are baniya and labanas in east Punjab, but being almost absent in west Punjab. Another example could be dom mirasi groups originally migrants from the gangetic plains also found in a very small minority, and those dom mirasi groups who intermixed with native punjabi mirasi groups. This variation could also explain the Punjabi Lahore variation. Minority dalit groups were oversampled. The Punjabi samples in between Up Brahmins and punjabis like Jats/Gujjars/Tarkhan were likely a mix of dom mirasis intermixed with native Punjabi mirasis. This made it seem like there was a caste system genetic cline similar to the vedic one when in reality this wasn’t entirely the case.

    1. “ with the exception of chamar/mochi and dalit/chuhra groups who are a small minority. ”

      Chamar /other Dalit are like 1/3 of Punjab Not a small minority

      Also of the top of my head I think non-landowning, non-Dalit groups like tharkans more AASI as well from land owning groups like Jatts.

      1. “Chamar /other Dalit are like 1/3 of Punjab Not a small minority.”

        Yes, your correct with respects to east Punjab. I was taking into consideration West Punjab as well.

        1. How does the feudal system work in West Punjab ? Do the landlords and laborers belong to the same Biradari / Caste or different ?

          If different which castes tend to be landless and which ones land owners ?

          It is a bit tricky to find good information on this stuff in Pakistan. People have different agendas and want to present things in a certain way.

          In India these social structures are a lot better studied.

      2. Depends, Saini and Rajput are a land-owning group in E Punjab and they are all more AASI than Tarkhans.

        And Tarkhans are akin/identical to Punjabi Brahmins when it comes to AASI, so they represent the biraderi average. Jatts and Khatri are just shifted to an extreme end of that average, although many can easily reach same AASI levels as Tarkhans/Brahmins in Punjab, which isn’t much, only a 2-3% difference at most.

        1. How much AASI do castes / communities like Telis, Macchi and Mussalis have in West Pakistan ?

          Would be remarkable if still not higher than Brahmins, Syeds & Rajputs?

          1. Telis may score similar to biraderi average, but Mochi/Mussali are definitely high AASI pops like Chamar/Chuhra of E Punjab. In fact Mochi are basically Chamar counterparts.

    2. Which Punjabi caste goes to 35% Steppe, never seen it?

      And Punjabi biraderis can easily go over 20% AASI, around to 24% especially Rajputs or many West Punjabi groups like Syeds.

      1. “And Punjabi biradaris can easily go over 20% AASI, around to 24% especially Rajputs or many West Punjabi groups like Syeds.”

        Correct, unmixed outliers can get a little over 20% (low 20’s). I was referring to typical Punjabi range. Also certain Pakistani Syeds getting 24% AASI are either Muhajir (Urdu-speaking) or mixed and aren’t fully Punjabi Syed. With regards to Punjabi rajputs, they usually get around 18-20% AASI, especially the muslim ones from West Punjab. However, mixed and unmixed outliers definitely exist in both East and West Punjab. Additionally, there are some muslim rajputs from Pakistan, originally from Haryana (1947 partition) who are referred to as ‘Ranghars’ who get around 24 AASI. They can sometimes have similar surnames as Punjabi rajputs. It seems as though these Ranghar folks are genetically intermediate between Punjabi rajputs and Gangetic plains rajputs.

        “Which Punjabi caste goes to 35% Steppe, never seen it?’

        Sikh Punjabi Jatt individuals can top 35% Central steppe MLBA.

        1. Sikh Punjabi Jatts barely reach 30% Steppe, no chance of crossing over 35%

          sample: Sikh Punjab Jatt [email protected]
          distance: 0.89
          Sistan (N): 42.8
          Eurasian Central Steppe (MLBA): 29.4
          Peninsular India (LM): 18.4
          West Asia (EBA): 5.6
          Pamir Knot (En): 2.6
          East Asia (IA): 1.2

          ^They top off at 29.4% in this model, and to be honest, it’s a little inflated, so in actuality it would be lesser, around 28%.

          35% + is Ror/Jat territory:

          sample: Ror:Average
          distance: 1.12
          Eurasian Steppe (MLBA): 39
          Sistan (N): 34.6
          Peninsular India (LM): 21.2
          Pamir Knot (En): 5.2

          sample: Jat Haryana:Average
          distance: 1.27
          Eurasian Steppe (MLBA): 36.6
          Sistan (N): 34
          Peninsular India (LM): 23.4
          Pamir Knot (En): 6

  2. I heard the term “self-identified Dalit” being used in legal verbiage of the CISCO case. I don’t know what that means from a legal perspective. Also read that the defendant made arguments to the effect that he was not a practicing Hindu and did not undergo the thread ceremony. Effectively a jailbreak from upper-caste characterisation.

    If these reports are correct, we might be seeing a novel American phenomenon of “caste-fluidity”. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome cis-brahmins and trans-dalits in the house!

    1. Well I get drunk, eat meat, don’t wear the thread, live abroad, I guess I’ll be a Dalit.

    some DoD affiliated analyst laying out the IN RW perspective on the DoS attempt at regime change against Modi.
    if you are willing to regime change Modi because he is not compliant about Ukr, then you are likely to get someone who will tell you what you want to hear but will be equally ready to compromise with someone who pays more and/or is more ruthless.

    1. I don’t think they want to regime change Modi because of the UA-RU war. That is a mild annoyance at best. The real reason is that the US understands that a West-leaning liberal government is in the long term better since it is more compliant.

      Modi is turning West purely for geopolitics but is – as they perceive him – turning India slowly into a RW nationalist country.

      Of course, anyone who pays close attention to Indian politics would laugh at the suggestion that Modi is particularly ideological. But Western knowledge of Indian politics is weak, only their knowledge of China is worse.

      1. Ukr-Rus is not the only reason but latest one and seems to have elevated to a different threat level.
        As I have said before, IN is in a tough place strategically. RU getting weaker. US and CN seem to be no longer content with IN neutrality, both want vassalage.

  4. Hi Razib, I have got couple of questions for you that hopefully you will answer:

    Q. Is it possible the AASI with which Iran_HG admixed to form IVCp wasn’t pure but had some minor West Eurasian ancestry, given the presence of y haplogroup H which is limited mostly in india and found mostly in lower castes, and was also found in ancient Europe?

    Q. What’s the odd of an ANE rich population living in the periphery of northern part of South Asia?

    Q. A 2019 study attributed the low lean mass in South Asians to mesolithic hunter gatherers ancestry, which is probably the AASI. Do you think the low lean mass in the AASI was adaptation to the hot climate of India?

    Q. Did Ganj Dareh have low lean mass too?

    Q. What do you think the reason behind why we don’t find neanderthals’ remains and tools in reasonable amount in south asia as we find in Europe?

    Q. Did the Steppe pastoralists practise trading of sex slaves, selling Steppe women to BMAC and IVC before entering Punjab, considering the presence of maternal Steppe ancestry in the Swat culture and modern day people living from NWFP?

    Q. What triggered the migration of CHG rich populations to Anatolia and West Asia during the bronze age?

    Q. Are the black sea Turks turkified Caucasians or did they mix with Caucasian population? They have a lot of CHG ancestry.

    Q. Is it true Ethiopian jews are genetically 40-50% west Eurasian?

  5. congress/ opposition is going for recastifying India/ breaking Hindus, all over again. Nothing else works for them anymore. And modi the moron after breaking 50% quota barrier for his personal reason has given them this way. Should have a law against more quotas for next 40 to 60 yrs. Only this way and nothing else can work.

  6. @warlock – Shower thought on Rahul Gandhi getting in legal trouble for casteist hate-speech comments about people with the surname “Modi”.

    This is one guy with a Gujju Vania surname making hateful comments about Vanias directed at another guy with a Gujju Vania surname.

    But neither of the two are ethnically Vanias / Baniyas.

    (Rahul is half-Italian / quarter Parsi / quarter Brahmin. Modi is from the Teli community)

  7. Today the Indian CJI (Supreme Court Chief) tried to inject American “wisdom” into an ongoing hearing by stating that “the notion of men and women is not absolute based on their genitals”.

    The Attorney-Generals of the SC brought this Lordship crashing down to earth (India, more specifically).

    They asked him, if a man identifying as a woman (ignore his genitals) could contest on parliamentary seats reserved for women or evade criminal laws that target husbands for dowry abuse. Whether they could ride in “ladies-only” coaches and insist on police laws framed (women cannot be taken into custody at night).

    We don’t know yet how this case will pan out.

    But it seems to me that a strong societal defense against gender spectrum is for men to behave like primitive chads – and have society react-produce a gamut of women protection laws.

    American men and women have long since regressed to the point of convivial relationships that is respectful and sexually permissive outside marriage.

    In India, a man can be prosecuted for consensual sex under the false pretence of marriage (if he evades matrimony thereafter).

    Natural dimorphism is not just one for morphology but also psychology. The society that sticks to it’s lanes might also find it easier to stick to it’s lanes.

  8. Jagadish Shettar openly blames bjp national General Secretary bl Santhosh for his resignation from party and in general troubling Lingayat leaders.
    This Santhosh guy is well known in rural north ka villages as kingpin of anti lobster lingayat group within bjp.
    My only hope is things settle down by the time of general election next year.

  9. western exceptionalism was based on homogenity of race. Now with other race immigrants outcompeting them, they have forgotten about merit/. ofcourse it is done for sake of diversity, when it really is about their families/, so, caste/race /reservations dynamic playing over once again. we here now understand the value of homogenity and kinship groups/ networks. It seems reasonable that they existed among elites earlier in west too, but because everyone were same race/ it was hidden. Now with other race immigrants coming over, it is overt. They dont see any other way.

    1. I understand where you’re coming from, but I believe diversity is a strength and should be embraced rather than feared. As for wedding gifts, have you considered something personalized and meaningful? Maybe a piece of art or a special keepsake that reflects the couple’s interests and personality. Alternatively, you could contribute to their honeymoon fund or donate to a charity they support. Ultimately, it’s the thought and effort that counts.

  10. I claim my win, i bet we will have agi before we get ” islamic reform” or whatever. since we dont know what will happen after agi or its variants. I am claiming my win on this issue right away. Its done.
    AGI coming real fast now. 5 to 25 yrs, 25 yrs to 50 yrs, 50 yrs to 100 yrs. lets hope our descendents make it safe and sound to the other side.

  11. Barkha Dutt has an OP-Ed in the Washington Post saying the West should not interfere in India’s democracy since it is counter productive.

    The comments on the article are something else. Completely unhinged calling her a Modi stooge etc.

    (Barkha is left wing ideologically and very critical of Modi, just look up any of her articles.)

    I recommend all Indians give the comments a read.

    Barely 70 years after colonialist disasters, western people who understand nothing about your situation and have no skin in the game. See it fit to tell you who should run your country of 1.4 billion souls.

    Have a look at their track record over the years. And make your own choices.

    1. Her point in the article is that the current regime change tactics of overt interference are being counter productive and that the cabal should switch to more cover tactics.
      But trust some of RW pundits to think that she has turned against regime change mafia 🤦‍♂️.

  12. News Blackout in Effect
    The Michael Morell story is disposed of by press janitors
    By any marker, this is an enormous news story. If we go by the usual measuring stick of American scandal, the Watergate story, this potentially meets or exceeds that, on almost every level. Does it reach into the current White House? Check. Was it a craven attempt to subvert the electoral process? Check again. Did a presidential candidate engineer a massive public deception? Yes, resoundingly. Did it involve intelligence agencies? Yes, and these weren’t amateurs like Nixon’s plumbers. These were 50 of the most powerful people in the intelligence world — including five former heads or acting heads of the Agency in Morell, John Brennan, Leon Panetta, Michael Hayden, and John McLaughlin — conspiring to meddle in domestic politics on a grand scale.

    1. It’s hierarchy not hypocrisy or double standards. The strong do as they wish …..

  13. I once described liberalism as normalizing deviancy to gaurav. can anyone remind him.

    World is going crazy.

  14. There you go, congress is asking for reservation of 75% and also in pvt sector, TN model is now completely being embraced. Get most of H castes and pit them against few upper crust, bjp led by modi allowed this to happen. What should be done?. Make a law against more reservation above 50% for next 40 yrs. Same in pvt sector.

    Modi the moron.

  15. I still say, give quota for intercaste marriage, 15%. solve the problem once and for all.

  16. SG tushar Mehta highlighting the absurd impact on other legal provisions of redefining gender.

    In this thread he highlights how this new gender definitions make it impossible to identify a class of people.

    In earlier communal violence arguments also get seems to have at least stalled the tag team of Joseph and nagarathna. More power to him.

  17. Hi guys I’m back,

    The other thread was closed and I don’t think this website is as active as it used to be. Anyways I’m here again to ask for Seinudzeits email again. I’ve got a lot of questions to ask regarding many things, and I think he is very knowledgable. He doesn’t seem to be active anywhere like eurogenes or here, so I’m hoping nothings happened to him. If you have his email you can double check with him if it’s alright to give it to me. My email is [email protected].

    1. @preachy

      A couple years ago I kept email correspondence with Commentator/Seinundzeit (first got to know him through Anthrogenica). I was even able to meet him in person. In person he was exactly what you would expect. Brilliant guy (essentially a genius). And unlike some of the other gifted people I’ve known over the years, he had the advantage of being a good person.

      Last time we spoke was 2019. I got busy with my own job, and he was busy with a few of his own projects. I haven’t been to the states in awhile, nor have I any need for it.

      But I’ll shoot an email (assuming he still uses the same one). I’ll ask if he visits this website anymore, and if he’s seen your message.

      1. Thanks so much KODonald, I appreciate your help massively. In all honesty I was a bit concerned, as he was active on different forums not too long ago but then disappeared all of a sudden. I pray everything’s alright for him, and I hope he’s in the best of health. I’ve assumed he’s busy as he has said in a previous comment that caught up in things. Once again thanks very much for your help, and your response to my comment

  18. As i predicted here, congress/rest are following TN model. destroy meritocracy to its core and pit castes against each other as also demand it from pvt sector as well. No principles under guise of social justice is what TN model has been. strangely prashant bhushan called it as caste majoritarianism. funny how he did not see this before. congress/ Rahul gandhi have proven themselves to be exactly as i expected who they were, all pretense and no substance. And modi is indeed moron, who got reservations past 50%.

    1. Apart from anti-B casteism, TN model at least builds up manufacturing and decent law & order. What congress is signing up to is more of BH model. Worst of both worlds.

  19. correction, pratap bhanu mehta*
    I am ready for AI to devour the world, cant stand stupidity of left or right. No principles, only the mob. as razib seems to have said it.
    It is quite clear that in absence of homogenity, there are no principles, only the mob. Atleast in america, among blacks there is a culture of intellectual integrity, so some people will speak out. In India, i am yet to find any scholars of sc/st background advocating meritoracy or principles for its own sake.
    To me, this is in some perverse sense, the deeper failing of hinduism itself. lack of integrity , and people doing all this are politically powerful groups and leaders.
    So, accelerating AI , followed by BCI is good overall. I am pretty sure, that until people get to certain degree of intelligence, there wont be intellectual integrity. In some deeper sense. Intelligence and intellectual integrity go hand in hand. Others cannot do that because their intelligence is low enough that it cannot override their identity based insecurities, only those whose intelligence can over ride their identity based insecurities can overcome this. I hope to god that i shall not falter in integrity, not respond envy with envy, distrust with distrust. But already, I am trusting less to be more safe.
    It also goes to show, rejecting humanities dept meant it was taken over by left loonies completely and now the identitarians.

    In a deeper sense, intellectual integrity is only possible by those who eat their egos and admit others being smarter than them, or that the deserving should get better preference at their own expense in some way. I have passed that test and it hurts, how many can do that?. Not many i would submit.

  20. I hate being right about politics etc, being right on pessimistic views fills u with disgust and feelings of insecurity and negative emotions which one has to work over to get past them. And now i know enough that i cant go back to the view of “ignorance is bliss” either.

  21. I always wondered the lack of principles in Indian politics, now it is clear to me looking at usa. principles are a consequence of homogenity. without homogenity, there cannot be principles in politics. China strangely because it underwent revolution already is principled, much more than democratic politics. China does not need to explain lack of equal outcomes. But china is authoritarian, has serious internal law and order problem. And ofcourse, next step is pvt sector quota as predicted before. what is sinister about current quota politics in India is that, they dont even believe in competition between obc groups either. want sub sectional reservations.

    Had India had presidential system, perhaps it could have been avoided. But our founders had no such wisdom. wisdom is first and foremost about avoided worst possible outcomes, no, our founders did not think this through.

    Nehru it turns out, is even more of an idiot and even more deserving of contempt. what a pathetic record.

  22. @phyecon1,
    the anglo and euro RW has been quite consistent that with multiculturalism, elections are nothing but a census. You are right integrity, intellectual curiosity are a function of IQ.
    Saw a tweet about JEE cut off being ~99 for GC, 83 for OBC, 51/54 for SC and 37 for ST. At least gap is closing between the top 2 groups. Maybe b/c GC can go beyond 100 🙂
    Anyway if modi returns in 24, I hope he focuses on nutrition starting from pre-natal, early childhood. Also make all welfare transfers conditional on family planning.

  23. modi / indian rw is moronic, amateur chess players understand the concept of prophylactic moves. Itis more important to avoid loss and adversary plan than to go about own plan. we should have passed a bill against further reservations for next 40 yrs, try to raise all equally. get a slice of m vote. preempt others. what we saw was brazen opportunism. They dont want to defeat islamism, which can be dealt with by education and religious reforms, its clear, they want and prefer islamism for votes. Alsi, without modi, obc will quit bjp, and they have no other obc leader in wings, that is where next politics is abt, them being 50% are going to be wooed with 75% reservations, pvt sector quota etc. as master confucius said, people can be made to follow rituals , only few can understand. principles can only be followed by few in face of temptations of power and fear.

  24. The Brihadeeswarar Temple – built by King Rajendra Chola, the great.
    The temple celebrates that it was built by subduing (and pillage and plunder) of Sri Vijaya (in modern Indonesia) and Sri Lanka. No different from all those magnificent cathedrals in Europe built by rape, pillage and plunder. of the Americas (Spain) Africa (France, English), Asia (Nederlands and English) .

    Rajaraja I (985–1014) and his son Rajendra I (1012–1044), was another South Indian invader who destroyed Northern Sri Lanka,. They had a strategy of ruthless plunder and destruction of major political and religious centers and followed by the establishment of semi-permanent and fortified encampments.

    The period of Chola entrenchment in northern Sri Lanka lasted in total about three-quarters of a century, from roughly 993 CE (the date of Rajaraja’s first invasion) to 1070 CE,

    The Culavamsa says that the capital at Anuradhapura was “utterly destroyed in every way by the Chola army. Note: this was the end of Anuradhapura that was capital of Sri Lanka for over a 1000 years.

    The capital of the conquered Rajarata was moved to Polonnaruwa which was then renamed “Jananathamangalam”, a title of Rajaraja. The Chola official Tali Kumaran erected a Shiva temple called Rajarajeshvara (“Lord of Rajaraja”) in the town of Mahatittha (modern Mantota, Mannar), which was renamed Rajaraja-pura.

    Chola conquest of Anuradhapura

  25. Chozhagangam Reservoir now called Ponneri Lake is considered to be the biggest ancient reservoir in India. Build by Rajendra Chola I around 1025AD near his capital of Gangaikonda Cholapuram. It is claimed to 16 miles in length. However on Google Maps it is 2.45 mi (3.94 km) in length and maximum 1.2km in width.

    In comparison the Parakrama Samudra the largest reservoir in Sri Lanka, the dam itself is 8 ½ miles (14 kilometres) in length and 40 feet (12.2 meters) in height. The oldest portion of it is Topa Wewa Reservoir built around 386 AD. King Parakramabahu I (1153 to 1186). combined five separate reservoirs (thopa, dumbutulu, erabadu, bhu, kalahagala) to make one giant reservoir.

    Another ancient reservoir is Kala Wewa built by King Dhathusena (454 – 473). It is a twin reservoir complex (Kala Wewa & Balalu Wewa). The Yodha Ela canal (also called Jaya Ganga) feeds the reservoirs of Anuradhapura City, i.e. Nachaduwa, Nuwara Wewa, Thisa Wewa and Baswakkulama.

    The Yodha Ela canal in itself is a engineering masterpiece. It meanders over 87 km (54 mi) at a slope of 6 inches per mile (0.32 m drop along 1.61 km). The Yodha Ela is also a moving reservoir because of single bank . The Yoda Ela cana is essentially a reservoir with and area of 470 km2 (180 sq mi) feeding 4,630 ha (11,400 acres) of paddy lands and 120 small tanks on its way from Kala Wewa to Tissa Wewa.

    The Sri Lanka Kings be they of South Indian descent (eg Parakramabahu I a direct male descendant of Tamil Pandyan Prince) for the most part kept the Buddhist Egalitarian* principles. They mainly spent public funds on work (eg reservoirs and irrigation systems) that benefited the masses.

    This laying of the reservoirs in an image next to each other on the same scale gives one a comparison. It was painful, getting finding Ponneri Lake and then scrolling to find the SL reservoirs. But got it done.

    Image Comparison of Ancient Reservoirs in Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka

    1. The largest lake constructed by the Cholas is the Veeranam. It is about 15 kms long and 5 kms long.

      1. Not quite as big as the Sri Lankan reservoirs and many much older.

        Realized I dont need to scroll to find other on same scale.
        Just find the other object and make sure the data=!4m (or other scale) is the same. Then on the same scale.

        Veeranam Lake, Tamil Nadu, India,79.4649848,12z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x3a54cfd84c45e249:0x1390b454b9a03325!8m2!3d11.3216231!4d79.5434841!16zL20vMDc3bWxx

        It was impossible to use any water from the lake since it had run dry, and the face-saving proposal adopted by the authorities was to dig 45 deep borewells

        Incidentally SL reservoirs dont run dry as they are fed by rivers originating in the highlands.

      2. Another fantastic construction by the Cholas. Veeranam Lake (Veeranarayanapuram Lake).

        The lake remains dry for the major part of the year (yay). It was impossible to use any water from the lake since it had run dry, and the face-saving proposal adopted by the authorities was to dig 45 deep borewells around the area and pump the resulting water 235 km (146 mi) to Chennai via the pipeline.

        Many, even Sri Lankans dont know the complexity and engineering feats of the ancient reservoir systems in SL. There are 30,000 reservoirs and almost all are connected to each other, so that spill water feeds other reservoirs down stream. The two largest systems are that from the Mahaveli River and the Kala Oya/Kala wewa.

        The Mahavweli system feeds the Parakrama Samudra, Minneriya, Giritale and Kantalai Reservoirs being the largest and most well known. These reservoirs and provide water to the Medieval City of Polonnaruwa and much of the area around it.

        One section of the Kala Wewa system uses the 87km cross basin canal the Jaya Ganga to feed the Nachaduwa, Nuwara Wewa, Tisa Wewa and Baswakulama and eventually in to Yodha Wewa near Mannar. The Nuwara wewa, Nachaduwa etc supply Anuradhapura and its surrounding areas. Keep in mid the Cholas completely destroyed this city, forcing the capital to be relocated to Polonnaruwa.

        The other branch of the Kala Wewa system, some being Siyabalangamuwa, Rajanganaya, MahaVillachiya and the last being the Nelum Wewa a minor reservoir near where I live.

        The Chola invaders could well have got some knowledge transfer. But I guess they were not that smart, just loot and destroy. Reminds me of another such modern “Empire”

    1. Interesting re the Mauryan water technology. I wonder if there was technology exchange with SL. SL knew enough of the Mayuras to devote a whole chapter to their genealogy (

      Anyway the Sri Lankan reservoir system has been named the cascade system. Little reservoirs, feed larger and larger. Or vice versa, large river feeds a series of large reservoirs, which in turn feed smaller and smaller reservoirs.

      Much like a tree or a fractal system.

      A big jump was solving the problem of releasing water from a big dam with high water level. The invention of the “Biso Kotuwa” solved the problem of high pressures and the excessive potential energies stored in the water at these depths. (see for image)

      Studies of similar tank cascade systems in India found that they increase well recharge by 40 per cent and decrease surface runoff by 75 per cent (Vandiyur tank cascade system (VTCS) in the city of Madura, see reference in wiki link below)

      There is a lot more in the wiki

      Tank (Reservoir) cascade system

    2. The link below gives a diagram of part of the Mahaveli River Reservoir system.

      Contains both ancient and modern reservoirs. Victoria is modern (70’s) and Parakrama Samudra is ancient,

      There are quite a few other Projects still going on. The Largest being the North Central Province Canal project. The first part of the project, the construction of the Kalu Ganga-Moragahakanda Transfer Canal including two tunnels is complete.

      Eventually the canal feeding various reservoir like Iranamadu Reservoir will take water all the way to Jaffna. This was the brain child of the Rajapakses. There was resistance, basically why give Sinhalese water to the North.

      The Rajapakses seem to have prevailed (though not sure now with political climate). The thinking was that economic development, specially agriculture will decrease divisiveness and separatist agendas.

      I have to add my cynical thought. The politicians want their name entered into history. Specially thru the Mahavamsa that gets updated on and off. Special mention is given in the Mahavamsa to those who built large reservoirs and irrigation systems.

      1. “Special mention is given in the Mahavamsa to those who built large reservoirs and irrigation systems.”

        Interesting fact. Never new the Mahavamsa was updated. Is there a group that has the authority to update the Mahavamsa? What would prevent a ruler from erasing the achievements of previous rulers and exaggerate his own achievements?

  26. Gangetic OBCs wilding…..RJD claims Brahmins have come from Russia, asks them to go back. Hopefully Putin will provide an enclave.

  27. TN model is the goto and moron modi/bjp/rss has let this to happen.

    One has to go after TN model and break its 67℅ quota block and robustly defend meritocracy. No other way.

  28. bjp is a party that wishes to benefit from endless anxiety, by amit shah and modi, they do not wish to solve problems, it can easily get some ex muslims to be part of it, solve a lot of problems by ensuring religious autonomy in hindu temples across country while getting enough people to be part of board of governors from all background.

  29. Is there such a thing as ‘traditional Indian parenting’ or is it too diverse to pinpoint to something like that?

    Is traditional Indian parenting almost always abusive, whether physically or verbally or emotionally?

    Feels like traditional Indian parents are pretty bad in general. Granted they tend to stay together and provide material basics compared to some other groups.

    1. “Granted they tend to stay together and provide material basics compared to some other groups.”

      Probably the most important thing parents can do. Also not kicking you out when you turn 18, free childcare for their grandchildren etc. I maybe biased because I have a very good relationship with my parents, but I do think Indian parenting is just as good if not better than most other cultures.

      1. I think there’s a lot more to good parenting than providing shelter and food. In my experience, traditional Indian parents have a lot of issues.

        * Using verbal and physical abuse to incentivize academic performance

        * Extreme pressure to get into a small number of career options, namely medicine and engineering

        * Zero sexual education; they leave you entirely in the dark about the subject

        * No dating allowed

        * Extreme pressure to get married to someone from the same caste

        * Very different treatment of sons and daughters

        * Once they pressure you to get married, extreme pressure to produce grandchildren for them. As if it were any of their business.

        * Inability to have conversations of any emotional depth; just pressure and demands.

        * ‘Children are to be seen and not heard’ type of mentality

        * Always comparing you to successful friends and family members

        * Extreme concern over ‘what will other people think’ for anything and everything

        Overall just a mentality of emotional neglect. Just shut up, get good grades, marry who they tell you to, produce offspring for them. No wonder so many Indians turn out to be smart in tech but otherwise autistic in many ways and beaten down, lacking self esteem, having any sense of creativity and independence stamped out of them.

        And of course tons of guilt tripping.

        1. There is truth in your criticisms and things can always improve, but your criticisms are a reflection of a population that mostly lived in abject poverty until a generation or so ago and millions who still do. It would be impossible to adopt the positive attributes of Western parenting culture overnight. In fact the lax Western parenting culture of today is a product of at least 4-5 generations of high living standards. Change takes time and Indian parenting is already changing rapidly each generation(My parents were much more lenient with me, compared to their parents, a reflection of wealth and security built over the generation it seems).

          “Once they pressure you to get married, extreme pressure to produce grandchildren for them. As if it were any of their business.”
          Its just billions of evolution at work. 200 years of liberal individualist ideology just cannot match that in a poor country like India though again it is changing each generation.

        2. This version of indian parenting is reflective of a slice of the ambitious middle class in my experience. Behind every IITian there’s a judgmental tiger dad.
          What I’ve observed in my extended circle is quite different. A bit provincial, modest ambition, but a lot of family expectation to be looked after. India is full of its own version of rednecks.

    2. Parenting like food has to be judged on how good it is in enlarging and improving your brood over generations. Rest everything is commentary/hostile manipulation.

      1. “Parenting like food has to be judged on how good it is in enlarging and improving your brood over generations. Rest everything is commentary/hostile manipulation.”

        Why is that the sole criterion? And does it justify physical, verbal, and emotional abuse and neglect?

        Just because something is a biological imperative does not make it something that ought to be done.

        I can think of a myriad of other considerations when evaluating whether parenting was good.

        1. “Why is that the sole criterion? And does it justify physical, verbal, and emotional abuse and neglect?”
          Because rest everything is subjective. That which survives and flourishes does not need to argue with something that did not.
          Btw if abuse and neglect is serious then it will negatively impact next generations.

          Take for e.g. circumcision. Abrahmic religions have been flourishing with male circumcision but they look down upon female version.

  30. What do the Hindu nationalists who claim Modi and the BJP are the symbol of Hindu pride and true representatives of Hindu interests have to say about this? One cannot think of a more abject surrender to the cultural values of Anglo American elites than this:

    Republic Day 2024 to be an all-woman affair, only females to be part of marching contingents, bands, tableaux and performances
    Read more At:

    1. Hindutvas pride themselves on being more progressive than Muslims. So this is just a logical next step.

      Tbf at this point most people around the world operate under the Anglo American liberal framework. Its only a matter of degrees. Even it’s purported enemies have adopted this framework. China will criticize the US for being too “racist”. Russia will give women the right to vote but not allow gays to marry. Anti-racism, female suffrage, LGBT, none of these are the traditional values of Russia or China. They adopted the first two but not the last one yet. All these “values” are all Anglo-American imports, the only difference being the time of their import. The only state in the world that’s closest to bring fully sovereign is probably Taliban Afghanistan.

    2. WaPo has a column on BH caste census. West is openly aligning with kaste kanging in IN. Given the multi pronged attacks, it makes sense to give prominence to “women’s “ issues and have them on your side rather then on your opposition side.
      Look at how SG pointed the absurdity of reading spouse as person in SMA.
      This feels like IN leftists complaining about modi not allowing them to paint him in stereotypes and this making their regime change advocacy that much harder.

          1. hope SC will soon end the same sex marriage nonsense it has spent time so much .

      1. “West is openly aligning with kaste kanging in IN.”

        Once again the beastly Hindu reveals his inherent casteist mentality. If you had this much energy for the Brahmin and Rajput trads who support your movement in droves, I might actually believe that you had a principled stance against people promoting caste division. But of course, “kanging” is fine as long as it’s your folks doing it, amirite?

        “The left is dividing Hindus by caste,” the BJP activist says from the confines of the Kshatriya Mahasabha and the TamBrahm sangam.

        1. Dude I have opposed trads in this forum many times before. The basic idea being modern nation state is inconsistent with endogamy and inherited hierarchy. But every now and then non Hindus like you come and discover a son of soil speaking up for multitude of others like him who don’t want to give up the ways of their forefathers.
          Anyways the reasons for opposing caste census
          1. It is a prelude to private sector quotas when global economic conditions are just turning favorable towards India. It will dampen any supply chains moving to India.
          2. Next step is proportional representation in everything. The vision that will be sold will be that of Germany but we will get Lebanon. Mind you both options are different degrees of vassalization.
          3. Last but not least it undercuts OBCs as being incapable of competing on merit. The demand for proportional representation in everything is no no longer based on any deprivation but just numbers. Mind you the OBC quota demand itself started after SC/ST quotas came into effect after 47 and upset the rural power balance. UCs thought they could play high + low game without blowback.
          But you as ex-Hindu should already know these as goals of your team. You think your group will benefit from it. I think you guys are a bunch of useful idiots.

  31. It is remarkable the degree to which the US has been able to hide its reliance on mercenaries and other contractors.

    At its core, the war on terror sought to create an image of the U.S. abroad as a beacon of democracy and the rule of law. Yet there is probably no better evidence of how poorly this worked in practice at home and abroad than the little noted (mis)use of security contractors.

    Covid-19 pandemic had changed the Pentagon’s (and UK) war-making strategy as the public began to question how much money and how many lives were being expended on war abroad rather than healthcare at home.

    At least the Russian president and his state-run media make no secret of his regime’s alliance with Wagner. The American government, on the other hand, seldom acknowledges its own version of the privatization of war — the tens of thousands of private security contractors it’s used in its misguided war on terror, involving military and intelligence operations in a staggering 85 countries.

    The involvement of private companies has allowed Washington to continue to conduct its operations around the globe, even if many Americans think that our war on terror in Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere has ended.

    As recently as December 2022, the Pentagon had about 22,000 contractors deployed throughout that region, with nearly 8,000 concentrated in Iraq and Syria.

    At its core, the war on terror sought to create an image of the U.S. abroad as a beacon of democracy and the rule of law. Yet there is probably no better evidence of how poorly this worked in practice at home and abroad than the little noted (mis)use of security contractors.

    *There seem to have been quite a few Sri Lankans employed as contractors in Iraq war and Afghanistan. Seem mostly food service and grunt gofer mechanic types. Really advantageous for the US, low pay, no real insurance or necessity for long term injury after care, minimal compensation is case of death.

    The Mercenaries Who Fight for American Empire

  32. @Roy: I’ve been saying for years that Modi has completely surrendered India to the US. The principal reasons are partly geopolitics (US is needed to balance China) but also just a general capture of Indian elites by the West in a sociological/cultural sense.

    @Bhumiputra: It will be *much* easier for the West to divide and conquer India once they realise nobody cares about liberal democracy in India but they do care about caste and religion. Western elites are still stuck on liberalism because those are their own priors and they project that onto India. Once they pass that hurdle, they will make big inroads.

    They will also be helped on their way by “native informants” who emigrate to the West. The people introducing legislation on caste in the US are often Indian-Americans.

    @HJ: It’s inaccurate to portray all liberalism as per definition Westernisation. China never had slavery the way that we understand it in the West. The Ottomans were never as homophobic as e.g. Victorian England.

    I think people underestimate the internal drivers towards liberalisation in non-Western societies. The West has very little cultural reach in China and yet the Chinese state can’t force women to start having more kids because they want to make careers instead. That’s not something they read in a Western newspaper. The same reason why Dangal was a big hit in China. It’s internal.

    1. @Principa,
      The caste and religious fault lines within IN currently being exploited were first pried open back in early 20th century. Nothing new there. The new woke toolkit is to divide the UCs and the educated elite.
      The retrospective from the Raj is that the Hindu Upper class/castes should not be allowed to unite and become the leader ship of a nationalistic struggle. Even in late 80s/90s the erstwhile janata dal was able to unseat Rajiv Gandhi based on mid caste mobilization against high + low congress coalition. The west expects woke ideology to peel off enough UCs from nationalism.

  33. Just quickly on Pakistan. The Pakistani Supreme Court has already put the kibosh on the government’s draconian plans regarding Imran Khan and PTI. This is the problem of the Pakistani establishment. No side dares go for the win.

    Khan himself isn’t better. When he was booted out in an army-led coup he also constantly equivocated when pushed about his claims about US involvement. There were so many supposed marches which he called off or toned down.

    As long as this bizarre stalemate is constant, the country will not have peace. One side must decisively push the other out.

  34. Been reading through your old posts and saw this one about mean melanin index

    How legit are the figures that you posted from those studies? They look kinda sketchy. Are Tamil Brahmins really a couple shades lighter than UP Brahmins despite the fact that they are…originally UP Brahmins who mixed with Dravidians? Also, the Haryana Ror average is essentially the same as the Kapus/Reddys. What’s up with that?

    Yeah Ik selection is a thing but there appears to be some discrepancies there.

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