In the spirit of all the Indo-Pak back and forth that happens on BP, here is one more perspective. This is strictly my view. Naturally there are several layers to the Indo-Pak relationship that cannot be captured in one article and I am certainly no expert on this subject. With these caveats, here goes.
1. Religion
The first, obvious dynamic that plays out between India and Pakistan is religion. The Muslims case for the creation of Pakistan was based on two points:
(a) Some Muslims wanted a ethnically homogeneous state because they believed Muslims themselves constitute a separate nation and desired to have their national home
(b) Because some Muslims claimed experience showed that Hindus want to use their majority to treat Muslims as second class citizens in an alien state.
(Ref: Pakistan or the partition of India by B.R.Ambedkar – Both Jinnah and Gandhi considered this book to be the authority on the subject)
Those who chose India completely rejected these notions then, and do so even today. That DOES NOT mean Indians reject the reality of the Pakistani state. If anything, its the exact opposite. Only fools would want partition to ever be undone.
Why is this relevant today? Well, listen to Asim Munir:
He repeats verbatim the same two foundational principles of partition.
How do these principles manifest on the ground? During the Pahalgam terrorist attack. Tourists were asked to state their religion, Muslims were let off and Hindus were asked to recite the kalma. those who could were spared and those who couldn’t were shot dead. These tourists had come from regions of India that had nothing to do with India-Pak dynamics.
Naturally, Indians saw this as a challenge to the very idea of India and the military response reflected that. Incidents like Pahalgam serve to only strengthen the prevailing view today in India that Pakistan is a failed Islamic state that is stuck in the past, with nothing to offer but violence.
Well, what about Muslims, Kashmiris, and their “struggles” ? It’s best to see this video by Shah Faesal (2010 Indian Administrative Service examination topper and first Kashmiri topper).
In this video, the segment on ‘terrorists not misguided youth’ is particularly powerful. He talks about his father’s murder by militants and his father’s views on India. The entire podcast is a great watch. Anyone dismissing Shah’s views is denying the obvious. There are some hard truths here to ponder on.
The first –Β The Pakistani belief that the Indian Muslim is a second class citizen, is fiction. The indian state does not discriminate. There is hard public domain data that anyone serious about wanting to know, can verify.
Second – The Kashmir door has closed for Pakistan. Keep on harping about disputed territory but that game is over.
2. Pakistani elites are dangerously ignorant
The Pakistani establishment elites have zero understanding of modern India. They don’t make any serious effort to understand it. Sahir Shamshad Mirza’s keynote address at NUST on 16th october is a typical example of this ignorance. He says Pakistan has come to certain conclusions about India and its armed forces, after deep study. The conclusion according to him was that the Indian system has a βpoliticised military and militarised polityβ, calling it a βdangerous combinationβ. Such conclusions are laughable but the Pakistani brass loves it’s own kool aid.
Another evidence of how ignorant Pakistani elites are about India can be found in an interview Najam Sethi once took of the Indian chief election commissioner M S Gill.
(I had seen the video on youtube but it is no longer available. A discussion on that interview can be found here).
Sethi expressed surprise that Gill, a Sikh, was made India’s chief election commissioner. He asked Gill whether India followed some sort of a quota system to provide representation to individuals from non-Hindu religious denominations. Gill firmly responded that whether it was him or his successor S. Y. Quraishi, they were all appointed on merit and the Indian system doesn’t consider religious beliefs when appointing individuals to positions in Government. Sethi’s body language showed he didn’t believe it.
Pakistani elites are in complete denial about India’s success, despite hiccups, as a modern, secular democracy. It’s understandable because acknowledging that would bring into question the raison d’Γͺtre for Pakistan itself.
On the economic front, read this article by Mosharraf Zaidi ().
Regarding Pakistan’s economy and human indices, here is Hussain Haqqani from 12 years ago.
Highest population growth in south asia, half the population below the age of 21, 1/3rd below poverty line, 1/3rd just above poverty line, very poor school enrollment. Furqan too has written about this.
To state the obvious, India and Pakistan have drifted far apart and there is no comparison now. So why is there still an India-Pak discussion at all? Β Because India does have a dumpster truck problem (Thank you for the analogy, Asim Munir). Ask any Indian on the street and he/she will tell you that another terror attack is around the corner. The Pakistanis, notwithstanding the bluster, were hammered during Op-Sindoor. They are now smarting and hurt. Sahir Mirza’s lecture at NUST and Asim Munir’s lecture at the Pakistan Military Academy all hint at a restless Pakistani establishment itching for retribution.
All that Indians will do now is look for ways to prevent a future attack from Pakistan. In short, Pakistan survives in Indian consciousness only because of the cycles of violence. There is nothing else left to sustain the link. A few years more and this too will end.

great post – congrats on your first posting π
judging by what drives on this blog, I completely disagree.
The Saffroniat are razor-sharp focussed on Pakistan and Islam and all that.. they may benchmark against China but emotionally they are very linked to Pakistan.
ANI % and Pakistan focus seem correlated π
Social media ‘froth’ and clickbait articles shouldn’t be misinterpreted. There is….a certain schaudenfreude that gives Indians especially on the RW a sort of cheap thrill when punching down on Pakistan. Personally I think its more than a bit silly because if you over-fixate on your past rival which is a basketcase, then you don’t focus enough on improving.
“Entertainment” does not mean “focus”. Or ‘link”.
There’s quite a bit of unsubstantiated mythologies that never seem to go out of style when it comes to Ind-Pak. Another one is the canard that the negativity towards Pakistan is mostly a “North India” thing. The number of Chennai-based friends and acquaintances who are strong Pakistan hawks that I have encountered….completely disprove this.
what is their caste?
no idea.
They are predominantly Tambrahms. Dravidians don’t care about Pakistan.
Dravidians donβt care about Pakistan.
ο»Ώ
Thats what I would have guessed.
But let someone more knowledgeable to comment
Wholly unsubstantiated BS.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/12/07/how-people-in-india-see-pakistan-70-years-after-partition/
This is as of 2017.
Absolutely.
Here is a pew survey from even before.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2011/06/21/chapter-6-how-pakistanis-and-indians-view-each-other/
Dravidians donβt care about Pakistan.
Wholly unsubstantiated BS.
Noting in you link about Tamil Nadu.
Just a blanket India.
Sure, because all those Tamil movies with Vijay and Vikram beating up Pakistani terrorists are for Brahmin consumption?
Cool, now movies (fiction) used as evidence.
Excellent, I always enjoy when you open your mouth and fall on your face with the weight of the ignorance pouring out. No one with an understanding of South India can dismiss movies as both a barometer and influencer of sentiment.
Understood. Since you have zeroed in on caste, let me be blunt here. Thanks to my work, I get to travel to different regions of India and interact with down to earth, hardworking folks from all walks of life, which is a privilege. The post captures the common sentiment I heard post Pahalgam, from people in Interior Assam, Central Maharashtra, coastal Karnataka and Kerala. The common sentiment towards Pakistan was one of hostile indifference.
I can say for a fact that none of these folks fit your Brahminite/saffronite defintion.
I dont think a social media echo chamber will ever faithfully reflect this view.
coastal Karnataka and Kerala. The common sentiment towards Pakistan was one of hostile indifference.
I know two Tamils from Tamil Nadu living in Tamil Nadu. They both are anti Brahmin and Anti Hindi. They are against Hindi speakers working in TN.
However, they seem anti Islam. They support Israel against the Palestinian. I found that surprising as I thougjt TN Tamils and Muslims got on quite reasonably.
In Sri Lanka the SL Tamils are reasonably hostile to Muslims. They are seen as helping the SL govt as for most Tamil is their first Language
I live in former border village, 40% Muslims and 40% Sinhalese mostly Catholics.
just a side wide glance.
how ‘peaceful’ are the buddhists in real life?
tamils lost to buddhists very violently in srilanka,
rohingyas in burma,
politics in cambodia and thailand hardly peaceful.
were those Muslim Keralans?
nice try π
Also by no means a monolith. Almost all the PIL cases filed for implementation of UCC come from Keralite Muslims.
Xerxes – no comment on this article but can we get Bhimrao, Saurav and Prats back please. Also the Tam Bram guy married to a Sri Lankan. All of these had such insightful and unique perspectives.
Also the Tam Bram guy married to a Sri Lankan
If I remember right his wife’s relative was a member of separatist got wiped out by the LTTE
Not sure of that, but he visited Colombo and liked it. Wife was SL Jaffna Tamil
I love Colombo
Iβm not going to go source authors to be honest.. if individuals want they can reach out.
The Saffroniate have to realise that they have to do some of the work as well π
That’s fair. I hope they return on their own.
PS: Saffroniate is cute:)
Thank you π
I think a lot of old regulars read but donβt comment
Thank you π
I am not surprised there is interest in Islam. Religion in general will always remain a topic of interest for Indians, just as caste is, because India is burdened by the problems of both.
Regarding interest in Pakistan, I did not say there is no interest in Pakistan. My point was that this interest is motivated mainly by the security threat Pakistan poses, and if not that, a sense of schadenfreude, as Daves has so rightly stated. It’s not driven by some emotional connect that has survived the times gone by.
I am going from what moves this Blog..
I think the statement ‘The Pakistani belief that the Indian Muslim is a second class citizen, is fiction.’ is just as much fiction as the Indian belief that the Pakistani Hindu is a second class citizen. A lot of Pakistanis still have families in India and everyone we have spoken to: none of them have anything good to say about religious persecution they face or the trajectory of the Hindu-Muslim divide within India. So the difference seems to be on paper.
Also the author claims: “The Kashmir door has closed for Pakistan. Keep on harping about disputed territory but that game is over.”
Perhaps at this point, but doors have a habit of opening and closing. What’s closed may open again. Pakistan’s obsession with Kashmir (now) does not have much to do with the Kashmiri Muslim’s right of self determination or the unfinished business of partition. It uses that argument but the real basis is that Kashmir is geographically inside Pakistan and an enemy stationed at this forward base can target Pakistan. No country wants an enemy base deep inside its territory. Then there is also the issue of water, rivers flowing into Pakistan via Indian occupied Kashmir. This is why this issue is not going to be resolved anytime soon.
Outside of that, Pakistani elite is definitely ignorant. However Indians are celebrating before the eggs have hatched. At $2,700 GDP per capita, India is a dirt poor country.. especially when the US is set to hit $100,000 per capita in the next couple of years. Most of the world is also turning sour on Indians, so watch out when they start squeezing.
So, is there a way forward for peace? Unfortunately no. In the past, it were the governments playing games, now the hate and division has seeped down to the local villager. There is no ‘real’ reconciliation possible for the next couple of generations at least.
>I think the statement βThe Pakistani belief that the Indian Muslim is a second class citizen, is fiction.β is just as much fiction as the Indian belief that the Pakistani Hindu is a second class citizen. A lot of Pakistanis still have families in India and everyone we have spoken to: none of them have anything good to say about religious persecution they face or the trajectory of the Hindu-Muslim divide within India. So the difference seems to be on paper.
welcome to BP.
Now how about you point out for us the Pakistani equivalents of Shahrukh Khan, Abdul Kalam, Azim Premji, Mohammed Azharuddin, etc before you try to peddle this sem 2 sem fiction of how religious minorities fare in post-British India and Pakistan? Heck one of the pilots feted with bravery awards over Op Sindoor recently, is a muslim. I highly doubt Pakistani officer corp has any hindus in such high status roles. Let alone a top gun pilot.
This is not to dismiss criticism of Hindu-muslim issues in India, and the presence of outright bigotry, at a social level. It’s surely an issue, and has gotten more overt compared to a couple of decades ago. But in spite of that, comparing minority rights and ‘persecution’ in India and Pakistan is like comparing South Korea to North. Facts simply are what they are.
On the subject of ‘reconciliation’ – yes. The 30+ years of terrorism attacks all over India – not just in J&K – has bitterly poisoned the relationship and what the “common man” in India feels towards Pakistan. It will take many years of sustained peace, to bring things out of the negative zone. And that process hasn’t even begun yet. The PakMil Fedual zamindars that call the shots in Pakistan won’t allow it. Ganda hai par dhandha hai unka
Whether Pakistan chooses to dwell on its insecurities over water, or a “dushman mulk” in geographically difficult zones, its up to itself. The reality of geography is that it is destined to be a small country bordering India, for eternity. The sooner it comes to terms with that reality, it can start emerging form its self-imposed well.
Welcome back Qureshi/Kishore Kumar
Qureshi can come back under his real name with Authorial rights if Interdiction is lifted..
though the Saffrionate are waking up so let us see.
Hi Qureshi.
If India is dirt poor what does that make Pakistan?
And “most of the world” is not turning sour on Indians. Online white nationalists are.
And they are as powerless and impotent as Pakistanis.
Indian immigration is still up and they will soon form sizeable voting blocs (already have tbh). More and more companies are setting up manufacturing/service units in India.
India has signed an FTA with the UK and will sign one soon with the EU. US trade deal is also coming.
And the reason Kashmir is solved is because of TFR. Kashmiris are aging and decreasing in number. There are so many Biharis/Jharkandis there that Durga Puja is being celebrated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moow-Lq1mUE
It is Pakistan with high TFR in Balochistan/KPK and Afghanistan that has to worry.
> The Pakistani establishment elites have zero understanding of modern India. They donβt make any serious effort to understand it.
This has been my experience. They extrapolate from the India they understand, the northwest part, which leads them to overfit their mental model. This is assisted by a lack of curiosity, and a mild racial disdain, for the eastern and southern parts. India makes a similar error in seeing Pakistan as purely ideological and overlooking its unique ethnic character. If you want to understand the Pakistani mind, you’d do better to understand the Punjabi mentality than to study Islam.
Wrt to whether southerners care about Pakistan, i lean towards thinking only trivially, insofar as that conflict is a liability and risk that’s been acquired, about which one must not be naive or in denial. Its proportional to whether they know Hindi and ingest that media, along with the brahmin variable. I have several relatives in defense who spent huge chunks of their lives stationed near the border or in northern cantonment towns, and I don’t reckon their antipathy to Pakistan to be all that deep. As for common southerners, they range from opportunistic and highly performative in the hawkishness to a contrarian openness, but you’d find far more authentic antipathy to northerners tbh, and not unusual to hear a joke or two about how delhi should have ended up on the other side of the partition line.
Thanks girmit a proper southerners viewpoint. To me these sentences stood out/
but youβd find far more authentic antipathy to northerners tbh, and not unusual to hear a joke or two about how delhi should have ended up on the other side of the partition line.
If you want to understand the Pakistani mind, youβd do better to understand the Punjabi mentality than to study Islam.
anybody who disagrees with you is a “uncle tom” right?
The funny part is he is the ultimate uncle Tom. His ancestors converted to Christianity to improve their status under the British and lord it over the “natives”. Now that the British have gone, he’s turned around and creates a fake oppression narrative to join in the liberal-marxist elite oppression status game.
Currently spends his time tom-tomming for China.
ancestors converted to Christianity to improve their status
No different from your ancestors who created the the Hindu Varna Dharma caste system to oppress the original natives of your poor backward state.
Even better you or your recent ancestors Uncle Tom’d and Embraced English and Western Education to consolidate your caste oppression.
It does help to have introspection which you seem to be sadly missing.
a fake oppression narrative to join in the liberal-marxist elite oppression status game.
Dont know about marxist opression, but for sure advocate equality and end to racism/casteism
Wasnt Libersal Marxist/Socialism advocated by the founders of India, Nehru. Or are you spitting on them
Currently spends his time tom-tomming for China.
No different from India Uncle Tomming the US. Hasnt turned out too well I see.
Never ceases to amaze me how many times a person can be wrong firing wildly in the dark. Keep trying buddy, you’re bound to hit something someday with your scattershot.
Until then you remain sir barks a lot up the wrong tree
My ancestors “privilege” was grabbed by murder and mayhem in the 12th Century.
Magha of Kalinga who invaded North Central Sri Lanka. Destroyed the Rajarata which had existed for over a 1000 years and never recovered.
Those Kings in Jaffna lasted till the 15th Century and the Portuguese invasion ended that dynasty.
No different for other dynasties, internal murder was the norm. Just before the Portuguese invasion a hal brother killed my direct ancestors two elder brother. My Direct ancestor saved his life by becoming a Catholic and going over to Portuguese.
Anyway our the family name was CinkaiAryan (In Sinhalese Arya Singhe)
From Ramanathanswamy Temple in Rameswaran
Below is from the Roper Lethbridge (1900) Golden Book of India and Ceylon.
Thats my Grandfathers eldest brother (Kumarakulasingha) who was married to an English Missionary
Its not even subtle. But I think its a generational thing.
Donβt be anti-national Girmit π
Excellent comment btw and welcome back
Donβt be anti-national Girmit
Not anti nationalist, realist with balance for his “Dravidian” roots.
it’s joke sbarrkum
girmit really should be an author | he has been a very high signal commentator the last decade
update: I have just made Girmit an author
The largest voluntary enrollment in Hindi classes and growth of hindi in the south has been in Tamil Nadu….the dravidians have gone mad…you should come and save them..
growth of hindi in the south has been in Tamil Nadu
I hope you understand “growth”
from 1 to 2 is a 100% growth
Anyway, good for them.
In Sri Lanka Sinhalese, English and Tamil are taught and required in school upto O/L
To get a white collar job one needs to be competent in both Sinhalese and Tami.
>In Sri Lanka Sinhalese, English and Tamil are taught and required in school upto O/L
To get a white collar job one needs to be competent in both Sinhalese and Tami.
What even is your point. Sri Lanka only has 2 languages to deal with, not 30, like India.
India in many ways, is a microcosm of the planet. And warts on all, a fairly successful model for how diversity can and should be united.
Thanks, although i never really went anywhere, its always remained bookmarked in my browser. BP being properly back has been a pleasant surprise this year.
Maybe we shouldn’t fear its ebbs and flows and we can count on a decadal resurgence from here on out π
Oh yes – we need to supercharge
I had quite a few lines on the Pakistani Punjabi Muslim in the article. I deleted it all because this mindset is very well understood and constantly belaboring the same is akin to flogging a dead horse.
@Archer my point was broader than just the Pakistani Punjabi Muslim framing. You might be giving Punjabi Sikh separatism an undeserved pass, which has in many ways been just as problematic, with its huge death toll and willingness to use terroristic methods. I don’t agree that the ethnographic dimension of Pak attitudes has been sufficiently decoded on this blog, and its far more substantive than essentialist projections of islamist vs dharmic constructs.
This blog may not have captured the relation between ethnicity and Pak attitudes but this has been very well studied and there is sufficient material outside of this blog space.
[…] girmit on India-Pakistan: A link sustained only through violence […]
For those who are from the backward state of Bihar
However, it all appears to have boiled down to the perennial theme of caste-based politics, with every party fine-tuning .fine-tuning its manifesto and candidate list to gauge how vote and how best to retain their traditional voter bases
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/124763893.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
[…] X.T.M on India-Pakistan: A link sustained only through violence […]
[…] also want to use this opportunity to respond a bit to the recent post that argued that India and Pakistan are only linked by violence.Β I am a singer of Hindustani classical music and an ethnomusicologist. Hindustani classical music […]