The Banyan Tree and The Creepers

Posted on Categories Uncategorized

This post is triggered by a line I read in XTM’s post on Fire and Saffroniates:

“Iโ€™ll now call them, the Saffroniate (Brahmins or Brahminised). They pretend otherwise, but the numbers donโ€™t lie. The threads light up when heโ€™s around and yes, Iโ€™m aware of the layered joke: threads mean something else too”.

Not sure if XTM realizes how awful this comment is. The straw that broke the camel’s back was Kabir directing his sneers at BP. XTM banned him and made clear the return path. Now the argument is that this should be revisited because “the numbers dont lie”. All of this is XTM’s prerogative so why then direct such a crude comment towards the rest of the commentariat?

Anyway, since mocking Indians citing race, language, religion and caste has become frequent on BP, I will share some inputs about the India that I experience on a daily basis. This is not a post that I will buttress with a lot of data because that misses the point. India is understood by living here and Indians can be understood when you live with all sorts of them, not just by hanging with a few within a cozy circle.

I am taking this liberty because I have traveled to more parts of India than most have. Where all I won’t say, except that I do know first hand what the Punjabi mindset is and what it feels like to live along the border, that too with South Indians for company.

a. Indians do not live and breathe caste. The bitter ones who routinely argue in bad faith on BP will never accept this, but this is the fact. Personal choices may be dictacted by it but in daily life, most Indians do not view each other through this prism.

b. It is easy to ask something provocative such as “were the Keralans Muslim?”. I did not want to respond to such provocation but I will comment now. At first glance, one cannot tell because everyone looks and dresses the same. in this case, they knew all the Hindu temples in the area by name, took me to all of them, were respectful and affectionate. And yes, they were Muslims.

c. I have a really dark friend who is a Brahmin. I have a really fair friend with bluish eyes, who is not. We have colleagues from Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra, all with different skin colours, castes, communities etc. No one knows precisely what nor is there any interest discussing this. Only pitiful fools try to push outdated racial theories to divide Indians.

d. When we travel, for instance to western or eastern India, we all speak in Hindi with the local residents because that is the common language we all know. None of that comes in the way of the genuiness and depth of our relationship with them. This is true for Indians in all parts of India, notwithstanding some disgruntled elements who practice parochialism.

d. Most people in Kerala, Andhra and Karnataka can understand and speak Hindi comfortably. The language is growing rapidly in Tamil Nadu also. I know Maharashtrians and Punjabis who speak fluent Kannnada, Tamil and Malayalam. Indians migrate and settle in all parts of India. 5000 Gujarati families have settled in Kochi for generations. They maintain their culture, celebrate Navaratri with all the gusto, and speak fluent Malayalam. South Indians have obviously settled all over India.

e. When a dear friend passed away recently, the first person to come and pay respects was the head pastor of the local church. The second was the Muslim shopkeeper in the neighbourhodd. Why? because my friend, a Brahmin, was a much loved doctor who made an immense contribution to the community. To all those who keep citing data and examples to the contrary, show some grace and accept that this too is India.

f. Language such as this: “Have you ever wondered why Indo Aryan India is lagging in HDI indicators compared with Dravidian”, those who peddle such race poison do not know and do not care what North India has endured.

Alberuni writes about the exploits of Mahmud in Northern India. “Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed there such wonderful exploits that the Hindus became like atoms of dust, scattered in all directions.”

Dr.Ambedkar: “Mahmud took Kannauj in AD 1017. He took so much booty and so many prisoners that the fingers of those counted them would have tired. The going rate for an indian slave was 2 to 10 dirhams. Over half a million Hindus, beautiful men and women, were taken back to Ghazni as slaves. “

Will Durant described the Islamic conquest of India as “probably the bloodiest story in history”. He estimated that over 50 million Hindus were slaughtered.

Kitne Ghazi Aaye – Kitne Ghazi Gaye, but Indians, especially Hindus, withstood all of it and are now beginning to turn a corner. This is nothing short of a miracle.

India is the banyan tree that is surrounded by creepers. The creepers routinely mock it, flippantly citing race, caste, language. But the banyan tree stays silent, because it has seen many such creepers come and go. These creepers too will be swept away by time but the Banyan tree shall always remain standing. Amen.




5 1 vote
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

48 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
sbarrkum
sbarrkum
23 days ago

โ€œHave you ever wondered why Indo Aryan India is lagging in HDI indicators compared with Dravidianโ€, those who peddle such race poison do not know and do not care what North India has endured.

Your are referring to Muslim era incidents that ended 300+ years ago. What about what happened under British Rule, eg the Bengal Famine that happened about 75+ years ago

What about the Madras Famine of 1877. Killed about 5 million people.

Tamil Nadu is doing quite well. GDP/capita just passed that of Sri Lanka. Could it be the modernizing influence of Christianity and the British (6% of the Population) (That little stat is for Nivedita)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1876%E2%80%931878

Billu
Billu
22 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Well how about it not being invaded little by islamic invaders. Hence the society is higher trust and females haven’t been kept inside doors for long.

X.T.M
Admin
22 days ago
Reply to  Billu

There is the shock of invasion but maybe also structural regional differences

I think the idea of a simplistic narrative..

For instance I totally agree that the invasions of a millennia had a profound societal transformation but also Northwest India has historically been the conduit of all invasions

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
21 days ago
Reply to  Billu

Well how about it not being invaded little by islamic invaders

I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room. Caste. Indo Aryan regions had caste. approx 50% of the population was Sudra forbidden to read or write.

In Dravidian India 5% were Brahmin. The rest were Sudras. No question there was class among the “Sudra” caste. Landowners, Artisans etc. No different from say England with a inherited Landowner class. The big point is that that division could not be justified on religious grounds.

Regarding Invasion. Sri Lanka was under European Occupation for 500 years. As long or longer than the Islamic Invasion. Independence came in 1948.

In India the last of the Islamic power ended 300+ years ago

Last edited 21 days ago by sbarrkum
X.T.M
Admin
21 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Apparently caste was โ€œdyingโ€ as an institution under Muslims but rapidly revived in the European era?

I donโ€™t know if this is true or not

brown
brown
21 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

interesting fact is that the most virulent form of caste discrimination is in present day tamil nadu. there were reports that in certain villages, walls are constructed to obstruct movements of dalits, so called honour killings are common, in some communities, student wear colour coded wrist bands to denote their caste!!!
the ruling dravidians have kept dalits ‘ in their place’ and shooed away brahmins to an extent.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
20 days ago
Reply to  brown

so called honour killings are common,

Have you got a link on some reports

Stats like number per year

Last edited 20 days ago by sbarrkum
sbarrkum
sbarrkum
20 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

I got this reply for TN friend

It’s true in some parts. The intermediary castes Who got empowered thru the affirmative action initiated by the justice party and Dravidian movement now think themselves as ruling class. This is further fuelled By the Hindutva forces with the blessings from the Union Government and RSS. The government is also trying to curb by demolishing Such walls, banning the arm bands etc., But I feel it’s not enough. Most of Such crimes are done by the castes like Mukkulathors (Particularly Maravar), Vanniyar and The Goundars in the west.

Also, the intercaste marriages selectively exclude the Dalit community. Particularly if the groom is a Dalit, then it creates a problem. In few cases, it’s ending with dishonour killing.

Post 2014, Such forces are meticulously encouraged by the Hindutva forces in the Name of past Glory. As We don’t have strong leaders like Karunanidhi, MGR, Annadurai and Periyar EVR in the past, Such things creep it’s ugly Head. The present leadership is not that effective.

Last edited 20 days ago by sbarrkum
brown
brown
20 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

there is hardly any hindutva base in tamilnadu. your friend is correct. the so called middle castes have got a monkey grip on power, which is very difficult to dislodge.
they have very cleverly managed the ‘secular (and national english)’ media to show that the state has a ‘progressive and liberal’ political setup.

once again hindutva is not a issue. the traditional backbone for hindutva forces are brahmins and banias. for example, in karnataka b j p has 7 brahmin m l as and cogress has 3. there are no brahmin m l as in tamilnadu.

brown
brown
22 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

a sliver of north indian ‘upper castes’ have done very well in the ‘socialistic’ public sphere. a spate of officers of central govt. services is evident. in fact, some of this crowd in universities are the back bone of ‘woke politics’ in india!!south india did benefit from the rule of native kings of mysore, travancore, hyderabad, marathas etc. availability of sea ports of madras, bombay, kochi, vizag also helped.direct british rule helped madras against mysore, but eventually evened out.relatively less population also helped.

X.T.M
Admin
22 days ago
Reply to  brown

This is a good breakdown – I prefer granularity, which is always high signal ..

Of course the meta point that the South has been more shielded than the North.

But also at peak โ€œIslamic ruleโ€ (the Mughals?), the number of Hindu kingdoms and principalities were considerable.

Or did tbe Marattha re-Hindufy everything. I wonder how old many of the 540 Indian Principalities actually are

Brown
Brown
21 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Vijayanagar was the first bulwark against Islamic rule. It’s influence in art, religion, temple building, music, irrigation still is a benchmark.

Shivaji’s rule was the beginning of Hindu revival. If fact he used the term ‘ Hindavi swaraj’. He also hinduised administration by removing many Persian words.
Kannada is full of Persian words on revenue administration.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
21 days ago
Reply to  Brown

irrigation still is a benchmark.

Curious about Irrigation systems (dates, sizes) as the Sinhalese have been doing for centuries.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
20 days ago
Reply to  brown

I will reply later with a post on what has been dubbed the Hydraulic Civilization

the sophisticated irrigation system developed in ancient Sri Lanka, particularly in the dry zone, between approximately 200 BCE and 1200 CE

A few points until then
a) First recorden reservoir in 400 BC by Basawakkulama Wewa, also known as Abhaya Wewa. It was built by King Pandukabhaya (2nd Historical king).

b) The ability to build leage reservoirs was because of the development of the Biso Kotuwa i.e. “sluice gate” or “valve pit,”. It is an ingenious device that controls the release of water, channeling it safely to prevent damage to the surrounding embankment 

c) All the reservoirs are connected to each other and called a Cascade System. As it is unique deemed a UNESCO heritage

at about 13mins there are diagrams of the Biso Kotuwa

https://youtu.be/SPOjVLy6KH8

X.T.M
Admin
21 days ago
Reply to  Brown

This is true – there is no doubt that conquest compromised โ€œindigenousโ€ culture, that was more and less hybridised (Aryan, Dravidian, tribal)..

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
23 days ago

In Sri Lanka we had the destruction of the Uva Wellasa Region by the Brits in 1817.

It was the rice bowl of Sri Lanka (a small scale Punjab if you may). Post independence policies have made a good recovery of the region.

The rebellion led to the British colonial government to adopt a scorched earth policy in order to suppress it. This included the killing of cattle and other livestock, the destruction of private property (including homes and stocks of salt) and the burning of rice paddies. In the rebellion, more than 10,000 Sinhalese were killed. In addition to the scorched earth policies, the colonial government also confiscated properties owned by insurgents

The rebellion also led the British to eventually enact mass land confiscations from the Kandyan peasantry via the Crown Lands (Encroachments) Ordinance No. 12 of 1840 (sometimes called the Crown Lands Ordinance or the Waste Lands Ordinance),[9] a form of enclosure; the Kandyan peasantry were reduced to penury. The British found that the uplands of Sri Lanka were very suited for coffee, tea and rubber cultivation, and by the mid-19th century, Ceylon tea had become a staple of the British market, bringing great wealth to a small class of European tea planters. To work the estates, the planters imported large numbers of Tamil workers as indentured labourers from south India, who soon made up 10% of the island’s population**

The Srima Gandhi Reparation reduced the population to 5%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Rebellion_of_1817%E2%80%931818

X.T.M
Admin
22 days ago

this is a good post. the point of Brown Pundits is to encourage voices like urs.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
21 days ago

Fishing boat being blessed by Devol holy water

Devol (also spelled as Dewol) is a deity subjected to worship and belief in Sri Lanka. He is one of the twelve deities worshiped in Sri Lanka as “Dolos Deviyo” (twelve gods), who are believed to be intervening in the affairs of the worldlings.[1] The practice of the worship of Devol deviyo or the cult of Devol is widespread among the Sinhalese, specially in the Galle District, South western lowlands and coastal areas of the country. (there is a wiki on Devol)

https://web.facebook.com/reel/1107031618180545

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
21 days ago

Fishing boat being blessed by Devol holy water
Devol (also spelled as Dewol) is a deity subjected to worship and belief in Sri Lanka. He is one of the twelve deities worshiped in Sri Lanka as โ€œDolos Deviyoโ€ (twelve gods), who are believed to be intervening in the affairs of the worldlings The practice of the worship of Devol deviyo or the cult of Devol is widespread among the Sinhalese, specially in the Galle District, South western lowlands and coastal areas of the country. (there is a wiki on Devol)
https://web.facebook.com/reel/1107031618180545

brown
brown
20 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

how does all these dovetail into core buddhist practices?

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
20 days ago
Reply to  brown

Not Buddhist at all.
Pre Buddhist practices

Gaurav Lele
Gaurav Lele
19 days ago

Guys discussing high HDI and Low HDI of North and South without discussing coastal connectivity?

All states which have a sea barring Odisa are doing well. Bengal used to do well but has gone to shit due to 70 years of Communist and bad economic strategies.

Among “Northern” states GJ has a long coastline.
HR PJ are doing fine due to connectivity to capital and extremely high irrigation and other stuff.

The only places which comprise the “backward” north are UP,Bihar – badly governed since independence and landlocked and JH and CH which have extremely difficult terrains and very very dense forests along with being landlocked.

Geography, historic and economic reasons often supersede cultural though people who want always focus on those.

X.T.M
Admin
19 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

very high signal comment

girmit
girmit
19 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

Isn’t culture deeply connected to ecology and geography? I don’t see cultures as being perfectly funglible in these short horizon scenarios. Consider the high social capital of konkan + kerala, in contrast to the interior deccan people who may even share a language and state resources. Coastal Karnataka , for instance, is not generously allocated to, but the HDI of Udupi and DK districts are practically the highest in non-metropolitan India. The impact of maritime trade in the current social and economic reality of those districts does not explain the gap with interior deccan districts. Likewise look at the HDI outcomes in Himachal and Uttarkhand vs the vastly better connected plains regions. Even Kashmir, despite its challenges retains some cultural patterns that sustain baseline HDI to be higher than expected. I’ve come to suspect that what made certain places highly prosperous in the past, like the gangetic plains and even the imperial cores of the deccan heartland, has in its own complex pattern arrived at some cultural pathologies that make poverty stubbornly persist in the current day. Not unsolvable, and maybe those weaknesses become strengths in another environment. Whatever they are they seem to have deeper impact than an ill-conceived public policy. I’d look for continuity of hdi outcomes where policy and applications are highly varied.

Last edited 19 days ago by girmit
X.T.M
Admin
19 days ago
Reply to  girmit

Maybe Imperial centres were extraction points

Imperialism in India was โ€œforeignโ€ rather than domestic thus UP-Bihar being the centre of Empire but poor

Gaurav Lele
Gaurav Lele
19 days ago
Reply to  girmit

I don’t see it as a single reason. But if TN MH and KN have 4-5 strong factors in their favor – then places like UP and or Bihar have 2-3

And yes geography does influence culture . Indo Gangetic plains were prosperous regions where second urbanization occured and one reason given for that navigation on Ganga. So I would speculate that as economies tranformed post industrialization Indo Gangetic plain was kinda left behind.

Coming to higher HDI of hilly regions – they are populated considerably less. States with lower population densities tend to get better share of central largeses and are generally better managed than giant stAtes like UP and Bihar.

UP on its own would be 5-6th highest populated country while Bihar wouldn’t be far behind at 8-9. They are a governance nightmare.

Anyways point being – things are more complex that going to favorite theme to fill them as you would know

Last edited 19 days ago by GauravL
X.T.M
Admin
18 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

The States are unwieldy; the Hindi belt would do well to reorganise into smaller sub-units

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
18 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

Bengal used to do well but has gone to shit due to 70 years of Communist and bad economic strategies.

Kerala has been communist too. Doing quite well. To me it is the culture, more Dravidian(AASI) and Bengal more Indo Aryan that makes the difference

Gaurav Lele
Gaurav Lele
18 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Very ignorant comment.

Bengal was the leading state of indian renaissance and development during the British Raj- so was it Non Aryan during those time ? And suddently became Aryan after Independence? Parts of it continue to be very prosperous but parts lag behind drastically.

Kerala has drastically high amount of remittances which shape the way state functions. Also Kerala communists have done the basics well – education medicines and stuff when in power – whereas Political violence and Misgovernance in Bengal was at peak.
Kerala does well on basics but struggles versus TN and KN on industrialization and job generation due to generations of communism (apart from tourism which state has developed well)

Basically Kerala’s unemployed find jobs in rest of developed india and being a small state it doesn’t matter as much. Whereas Bengal with population 3-4x of Kerala without thriving tourism sector means of lot more unemployed people.

Can’t blame only communism for the shit stAte of Bengal politics it’s the violent political culture which thrived their which is beyind communism ( maybe a legacy of indian revolutionaries ? I wouldn’t be so sure )

Last edited 18 days ago by GauravL
sbarrkum
sbarrkum
18 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

Kerala has drastically high amount of remittances which shape the way state functions. Also Kerala communists have done the basics well โ€“ education medicines and stuff when in power

Kerala does well on basics but struggles versus TN and KN on industrialization and job generation due to generations of communism

Who cares re Remittances vs Industrialization.

Kerala (like Sri Lanka) spent on Education and Health. The Education has paid of with Mid East Remittances. In Sri Lanka Mid East remittances are 30% of Foreign Exchange earning.

In SL approx 50% Mid East workers are house maids. Make about 750-1000 USD/month and it is all savings. They come back build a house, tiled floors, good bathrooms, fridge and washing machine. Cannot be called the rural poor any longer

X.T.M
Admin
18 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

yes basics really important to make sure that everyone has a fundamental HDI

Gaurav Lele
Gaurav Lele
18 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Who cares ?

Well a lot Keralites do care – they want industries and jobs in their native place like rest of indians.

X.T.M
Admin
18 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

is that important should economic growth be distributed across India or concentrated??

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
18 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

Well a lot Keralites do care โ€“ they want industries and jobs in their native place like rest of indians.

Regardless they are still doing better than other parts of India, including Industrialized TN

girmit
girmit
18 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum


agreed and more so, like SL, i’m sure their median household net worth is still significantly higher than their neighbors

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
18 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

Well a lot Keralites do care โ€“ they want industries and jobs in their native place like rest of indians

If their wishes come true then Industrialization is going to bring in Slums and pollution big time. Delhi is smothered by smog and causing health issues.

At the moment Kerala is doing quite well. even better than TN with Industrialization

X.T.M
Admin
18 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

yes industrialisation I snot homogeneous

X.T.M
Admin
18 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

So it is more Deccan versus coastal versus Indo-Gangetic

brown
brown
18 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

effects of partition are missing in your analysis.

  1. rich irrigated east bengal supported the industrialised west bengal, especially jute etc.majority of poets, revolutionaries, etc came from east bengal.
  2. influx of refugees made calcutta look like a slum.
GauravL
GauravL
18 days ago
Reply to  brown

true

X.T.M
Admin
18 days ago
Reply to  brown

interesting..

X.T.M
Admin
18 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Kerala has a dynamic coastal face to a very prosperous region (the Middle East).

Bengal feels very isolated (Bangladesh & NE).. but I would be interested to know more..

I don’t know if Aryan culture is so dominant but also caste is probably stronger in Bengal than Kerala??

Gaurav Lele
Gaurav Lele
18 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

No. Caste is much less salient in Bengal and even Bangladesh compared to other parts of subcontinent – barring NE and Sri Lanka.

Pakistan has much more caste than WB/EB

Razib has written extensively on this issue. Also even today caste is least salient factor in Bengali politics compared to rest of India

X.T.M
Admin
18 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

good to quote those pieces.

Gaurav Lele
Gaurav Lele
18 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

His old gnxp blog isn’t working I reckon. Need to ask him what’s up with that.

X.T.M
Admin
18 days ago
Reply to  Gaurav Lele

he has substack

trackback

[…] very high Signal Comment by G […]

Brown Pundits
48
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x