A pattern has emerged in these comment threads that deserves naming directly. When the Hindu hammer retreats, the space does not become neutral; it becomes anti-Hindu. The two are not the same thing, and conflating them is itself a form of intellectual dishonesty.
Hinduism is one of the most theologically complex systems humanity has produced. It is the root of Dharmic civilisation, the origin point of concepts, reincarnation foremost among them, that have radiated as far as East Asia, Southeast Asia, and arguably into the mystical strands of Abrahamic tradition. The sages, the philosophers, the vast literature: none of this coheres with the dismissal now fashionable in certain quarters, that Hinduism is simply a colonial administrative category, a British label slapped onto undifferentiated paganism.
This is the Pakistani foundational ideology speaking. It must deny Hindu civilisational continuity, because acknowledging it makes Temple destruction look like what it was: a pattern, not a series of unrelated incidents. It must deny that India had a civilisation, because if India had one, then the last pre-British colonisers of South Asia were Muslim; and that sits uncomfortably with postcolonial victimhood framing. The logic is circular and self-serving, but it is internally consistent. One cannot claim the mantle of the oppressed while being the penultimate oppressor.
The Dravidian
This does not suppress the Dravidian question. South India has a genuinely distinct cultural substrate; older in some respects, differently inflected, not simply a variant of the Gangetic norm. If there was an Aryan migration (and the genetic evidence increasingly suggests there was), it introduced power asymmetries: Brahmanisation, Sanskritisation, processes that unfolded over centuries as economic and cultural accretion rather than overnight conquest. The complexity is real. Acknowledging it does not undermine Hindu civilisational claims; it enriches them.
The Punjabi Muslim case is the sharpest illustration of the pathology under discussion. There is a tweet circulating, pointed and accurate, noting that Punjabi Pakistani Muslims so thoroughly disown the Punjabi label that they reach instead for Peshawari chappals and Kashmiri bangles, despite both being manufactured in Punjab. The denial of the Punjabi self in favour of a constructed Arabised or Persianised alternative identity is not cultural evolution. It is cultural self-erasure. Iranians have no such ambivalence: the average Persian owns the Achaemenids, the Sassanids, and Lord Zoroaster with a pride that is entirely unselfconscious. Pakistani Muslims have no equivalent relationship with their pre-Islamic past, because the Pakistani foundational ideology requires that past to be a void.
The Mughal Apartheid
The Mughal precedent is instructive. Even within the Muslim world of South Asia, there was a hierarchy: foreign Muslim over native Muslim, Turkic over local, an internal apartheid that the Mughal court institutionalised. Indian Muslims and Turkic Muslims are not the same civilisational product. Pakistan’s ideological founders, QeA-Jinnah & Allam Iqbal, both of proud Hindu convert stock; drew their intellectual energy from the UP Persianate tradition, not from Punjabi soil. The irony is that the state they created is demographically Punjabi but ideologically alien to Punjabi roots.
Sunni Shield
Both nations are now moving in divergent directions, and this may ultimately be clarifying. Pakistan is orienting toward the Sunni bloc and Iran; Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and now Islamabad joining a broader Persianate-Islamic geopolitical axis. India is becoming Asian in the fullest sense: economic growth paralleling China’s, a civilisational confidence returning after decades of apologetics. The trajectories are no longer mirror images. They are genuinely separate.
What remains to be said about Bombay Badshah, and about the right-wing Hindu tendency he represents, is this: when they lose their composure, they lose the argument. Their Muslim interlocutors, whatever one thinks of the substance of their positions, have internalised the grammar of liberal discourse. They know the rules of the room. The Hindu nationalist tendency, by contrast, has not yet learned that you cannot out-compete someone at a game they wrote. The slickness of Dhurandhar as a film, whatever its propaganda problems, is evidence that India can produce that polish. The comment threads show that individual hotheads can still undo it in a paragraph.
The post-BB vacuum is not a victory for nuance. It is an invitation for a different kind of distortion. This site exists to resist both.

But this does not necessarily mean people were not bowing in their greetings before the PIE migrations.
The language used changed but maybe not the actual body language?
Would this be a fair statement to make considering what we now know of Harappa/ IVC? And it just seems like head bowing might be a very ancient thing to do across cultures.
And does Vannakam not mean the same thing?
do people bow when they say Namaste? I thought that’s when they take pranam.
nos ancêtres les Indo-Européens
this is low-key funny
we have updated the thread
Arg….so I’m not seeing things….there was just that image when I posted my comment? And I was thinking it was strange.
And yes, you are generally supposed to bow/ bend slightly….just like the definition says.
We moved the picture to the header of the post..
I don’t remember seeing the thread when I posted my comment…just the image, was thinking it’s strange.
And yes, you generally bow/ bend slightly.
I think it’s not accurate to use the word “colonialism” in reference to the Mughals. In pre-modern times, people lost kingdoms and went in search of new ones. Babur lost Samarkand and conquered Kabul and Delhi. This was perfectly normal.
The Mughals were not sending India’s resources back to Samarkand.
The British were deliberately sending India’s resources back to London.
Over the centuries, the Mughals came to think of themselves as Indian. European colonialists were clear that they were racially separate from the “natives”.
The discourse on here over the last twenty four hours or so has been remarkably civil. It’s amazing how people can debate in the absence of those (not just BB) who want to be triggering. No nasty remarks about “kleptocracy” or insults to Pak Fauj. It’s refreshing.
the point is that it’s civil because the Commentariat are agreeing that Hinduism is an invented tradition..
Not everyone is agreeing about everything. But people are disagreeing without being nasty.
In any case, what I find particular triggering are insults to Pak Fauj and remarks about the “slavery of the awaam”.
The Mughals were certainly a colonial-Imperial power in that sense they did not enhance the indigenous character of India but syncretised it.
The same way the Arab-Macedonian conquests were colonial-Imperial as well.
“Colonial” is still a strange word to apply to the pre-modern era.
So the below article regarding India’s wealth during the Mughal era & other literature is lying?
It does not make sense to me to conquer a land, change its religion and language, destroy it’s buildings & not have ulterior motives about its resources.
If Brown Pundits has never done an article on this issue, perhaps someone credible and non biast does. And if it can be verified, that Mughals made the subcontinent poorer to make the Muslim countries richer….it should be accepted.
https://www.indiafacts.org.in/islamic-loot-how-the-mughals-drained-wealth-out-of-india/
And Hindus must accept it too, if there were valid reasons for the way the wealth was distributed.
India is 80% Hindu as of today so the Mughals didn’t do a particularly great job of “changing its religion”–if such was ever their intention.
The Mughals didn’t take India’s resources and use them to enrich Samarkand. The British took India’s resources and used them to enrich London.
Using the word “colonialism” for pre-modern empires is a-historical.
Professor Harbans Mukhia (neither a Pakistani nor a Muslim) has written an entire book called “The Mughals of India”. The Mughals Indianized themselves. By the end, they were even genetically mostly Rajput. This is settled history.
I’m not the one on here debating about borders, civilisation states verse national states & whether the country known as India today always existed. So kindly leave me out of that.
Perhaps I was careless regarding the names of geographic territories in question.
So when you say ‘80% percent of India’ regarding how successful the religion change was. Do you mean that 80% of where the Mughals had a strong rule over is still Hindu today?
Or are certain parts of the subcontinent being wrongly excluded or included in order to get to your statistics?
It was a very simple point.
The Republic of India (the nation-state) is 80% Hindu.
No serious historian believes that the Mughals were actually interested in converting people en masse.
shouldn’t you be comparing the religious demography of the entire subcontinent before and after the central asian incursions?
The Indian Subcontinental is 30-40% Muslim; while there were forced conversions (no doubt) and coercions, its very likely that Islam was very successful spread in liminal areas like the Punjab & Bengal.
Islam has always had a very successful missionary wing; Sufism, trading etc.
The Indian Subcontinental is 30-40% Muslim;
Islam is India’s second-largest religion, with 14.2% of the country’s
Assam: ~34.22%
West Bengal: ~27.01%
Kerala: ~26.56%
Uttar Pradesh: ~19.3%
You need to check stats before making such erroneous claims
The Indian Subcontinent, not India Proper, which we would take to be 1946 India, would be roughly 30-40% Muslim.
The Indian Subcontinent, not India Proper, which we would take to be 1946 India, would be roughly 30-40% Muslim.
So I guess partition was a good thing. Otherwise “The Indian Subcontinent” would have been at constant civil war
Who can say ..
Was “Nuristan” converted by missionary wings. Was Kashmir?
Lets not be disingenuous. Claiming that majority of muslim conversions were forced is unsupported. By the same token, claiming that majority were converted without force – is also unsupported.
Weaponizing the historical conversions to push personal biases or agendas is …silly.
It is fair to demand/expect that Hindus not be overly fixated on historical ‘oppression’. Correspondingly, it is unreasonable to demand that we simply gloss over the history of multi-century invasions by Islamic ‘foreigners’ and somehow pretend it never happened.
80% of where the Mughals had a strong rule over is still Hindu today?
Dravidian India, i.e.Tamil Nadu and Kerala which were never under Mughal rule is less Hindu than Indo Aryan India.
What I mean is more percentages of Christians and Muslims
Umm … Tamil Nadu was 88% Hindu on the last count? Some of that has certainly changed due to rapidly increasing Xtian missionary activity but it is still one of the more Hindu states in India – far more than UP, or Bihar – states I assume you call Indo-Aryan India
Tamil Nadu
The numbers dont tell the whole story. Vert Westernized (Christianized) with many Christian Schools and Institutions
Some of that has certainly changed due to rapidly increasing Xtian missionary activity
The Christian Missionart activity was in the late 1800 and 1900. Schools and hospital were built. No different from Nothern (Jaffna) Ceylon.
That gave education to many regardless of caste.
.
This Christian Missionary schools made a huge difference. A significant portion Hindus and Christians became English educated. They ended in manning white collar Jobs even in Malaysia. and Singapore
https://sangam.org/from-jaffna-to-malaya-the-unseen-architects-of-modern-malaysia/
Oh so the majority of Malaysian Tamils are Sri Lankan Tamils?
Oh so the majority of Malaysian Tamils are Sri Lankan Tamils?
White collar workers in Malaysia and Singapore are Sri Lankan Tamils
The rubber estate workers are Indians, just like the Tea Estate workers in SL
>White collar workers in Malaysia and Singapore are Sri Lankan Tamils
> The rubber estate workers are Indians, just like the Tea Estate workers in SL
🙂
The converted generally tend to have a more …vigorous hate of the faith whose folds they left. Its an eminently human tendency. Quite understandable really. The effect is documented to last for a few generations.
While rulers themselves never made that claim – so it is Historian’s word Vs actual Rulers {pick your poison}.
// Using the word “colonialism” for pre-modern empires is a-historical. //
It is not if one is consistent & willing to acknowledge uncomfortable truths like linguistic imposition & denial to engage with critical challenge to the Abrahamic core esp. cloaked behind modern framings
Sanskrit moved into many new regions, it’s stories got locally adopted & yet it found ways to integrate all that difference into systems which preserved those differences aka diversity while also getting transformed into the proccess {honest give-take process unlike linear progress Abrahamism subscribes to}.
I always reference this paper as it highlights the actual diff. b/w orthodoxy Vs orthopraxy aka Abrahamism Vs. Non-Abrahamic framework –
The spaces of religion: a view from South Asia★https://rai.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1467-9655.13955
// The Mughals didn’t take India’s resources and use them to enrich Samarkand. The British took India’s resources and used them to enrich London. //
Neither resources nor value is same in different periods thus it is misleading atleast if not completely false.
// India is 80% Hindu as of today so the Mughals didn’t do a particularly great job of “changing its religion”–if such was ever their intention. //
This is one of the most dishonest argument, overlooking the history of whole region in the longe duree.
E.g. – Religion & Empire
11 Religion and Politics in the Mughal Empire of Indiahttps://www.degruyterbrill.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783111342009-014/html
Read paper – I disagree with conclusion’s faulty comparision with Protestant reformation but it is a good paper highlighting the condition of religious communities in empire.
>This is one of the most dishonest argument, overlooking the history of whole region in the longe duree.
You are clearly new to the BP comments. Welcome
I am not new but rarely comment anymore.
Great comment! It may be a broad brush but I think it is not far fetched to say that Islamic conquest of India was at least cultural imperialism (if not materially so) and this is why it cannot be compared to prior outside influences like the Sakas, Kushanas, Bactrian Greeks etc because they assimilated in local culture – not different from the various outsiders who conquered Imperial China but got assimilated in to native culture. For all their claims to indigeneity, sub-continental Muslim mores are distinctly Arabic or Arabic aspirational.
And what’s more worrying, is the trend to increasingly distance themselves from their own cultural heritage.
Not really Indic Islam is extremely hybridised.
Urdu is the daughter of Sanskrit not Persian.
Trust me I would know; I’m learning Urdu from a Persian base and the similarities are very overstated. Pakistanis are essentially Hindus when looked from the Middle East 🙂
>Pakistanis are essentially Hindus when looked from the Middle East
The entire planet knows this, except for …many Pakistanis 🙂
I think it actually different as maybe from the perspective of SE Asia; Pakistanis will seem very Muslim.
It’s what angle you look from.
Sophia Khan has written an entire series on “the family of Urdu”.
In her scheme of things, Persian is Urdu’s mother and Arabic is Urdu’s father. Sanskrit is the disapproving paternal aunt.
More seriously, Urdu has a lot of Persian vocabulary but the grammar is that of Hindustani. Languages are usually defined by their grammar.
Urdu isn’t the beginning or end of Indian culture. Also it is highly overrated – Urdu is nothing but a register of the Khariboli dialect, heavily influenced by Persian and Arabic vocabulary.
So glad we are finally going back to our roots and its overwhelming and imposed presence is finally starting to wane.
You do realize that Urdu and Hindi are essentially the same language. They are both standardized registers of Hindustani. This is the linguistic consensus.
So by insulting Urdu you are essentially insulting Hindi.
As for “overrated”, that’s a subjective judgement, which you are certainly entitled to.
I take my words back. It is not overrated. It is the language of the oppressor. I have no love for Faiz – the guy who dreamed about destruction of things my community considers sacred.
Once again, Urdu and Hindi are essentially the same language. So if Urdu is the “language of the oppressor” so is Hindi.
With all due respect, you clearly have no idea who Faiz sahab was.
“The guy who dreamed about destruction of things my community considers sacred”– If you are talking about “Hum Dekhengay”, that is not what that poem means. It has nothing to do with Hindus at all. It was written as a protest against General Zia ul Haq.
“Sab but uthwaiye jaingay” (All the idols will be removed) is a normal Islamic metaphor. It doesn’t mean what you think it means.
In general, your thoughts on Urdu poetry are meaningless since you clearly have very little understanding of the tradition.
Abrahamic sects are exclusionist. It is a binary.
If there is a whole bunch conversion as in Indonesia, they can be comfortable with their Hindu /kafir past.
However, When Islam is in a minority, acknowleding their earlier faith will submerge them in the main stream.
Acrually there is a stronger case for material imperialism {slave trade, rentier state etc.} than cultural imperialism since it remained incomplete {the last paper i shared in my response post highlights the complexcity of centralizing power of state-religion nexus while managing the empire}.
Until & unless one won’t engage the framework of orthopraxy Vs orthodoxy one will not be able to comprehend how differently ‘mixing’ happened in them historically.
Mughals lacked the logistical capacity or the motivation to ‘send resources back to Samarkand’. And btw, there’s plenty of documented evidence on thousands upon thousands of Indian slaves sent to Samarkand.
The Mughals were colonizers who stayed on and looted locally. The Brits had the Industrial revolution empower their abilities to send the loot further.
The whole reason Babur even came to India was because he lost Samarkand.
If there was an Aryan migration (and the genetic evidence increasingly suggests there was), it introduced power asymmetries: Brahmanisation, Sanskritisation
Was there Aryan migration into the South?. Then you could also call the South Indian Muslims are a result of Arab Trader Migration into South India
Brahmin asymmetrical power and influence was during British times. The same in Brit Ceylon, a CLASS of Sudras became the power.brokers. The Mudaliyar Class (a title with office) became the admins of Brit Power.
A) can some one clarify this ‘aryan migration’ issue?
i) from where did they migrate? iran? russia?
ii) at what point did the invasion theory got discarded? on what grounds?
iii) why have the aryans not mentioned about the lands they came from, rivers, mountains etc.
iv) these were alpha males. apparently they did not bring their females. how can one leave their mothers, wives, daughters to a weaker set of men and come here.
v) what was so great about this place?
vi) who were the elites here? why did they willingly give up their language, gods , wealth, and women to these foreigners?
B)
(i) brahmin migration to south is documented. 64 groups had left gangetic basin and 60 groups survived.
ii) agatsya is supposed to have come to south and given the tamil language.
iii) these brahmins came with their families to royal courts many a times on the invitation of the existing kings and gave ‘aryan’ legitimacy to their rule.
iv) since most brahmins are not wedded to land they are constantly migrating even now!!
C) caste system
i) aryans had varnaashrama, even sudras are a part of this system.caste (jati) was not evident.
ii) based on the location and sizes of dwellings in the indus valley, iravatham mahadevan had opined that they had a caste system.
“Sindhi, Urdu’s Beloved Maternal Uncle”
By Sophia Khan
https://apinksamosa.substack.com/p/sindhi-urdus-beloved-maternal-uncle
All regions with the so-called inter-faith harmony are those where the native religion and culture has been almost entirely eradicated by Islam.
You know very little about Pakistan. You have no basis to make such broad generalizations.
Hindus comprise approximately 9% of Sindh’s population. By far, the majority of Hindus in Pakistan live in Sindh.
Perhaps actually read the essay.
Assertions of ‘inter-faith harmony’ in Sindh are difficult to obfuscate in the 21st century. The truth outs. Forced conversion of minor girls is an issue where again?
Ah yes! And the typical anti-Pakistan tropes come out again.
Lynchings of Muslims is an issue where again?
Bahadur Shah Zafar II looks like he was 40% AASI, meaning he was more Indian than most Brahmins.
People equating them to the British cannot point out any British monarch with 5% AASI. Infact not even the Gora officer class posted in Britian would crack 5% AASI.
“Brahmin Hindu overlords” 🙂
Tell me you don’t know anything about Indian politics and society without saying you don’t know f-all about Indian politics and society.
Below a photo of my Grandfathers eldest brother. He was next to the Governor in Northern Ceylon in late 1800’s. Mentioned in Roper Lethbridge. Golden Book of India and Ceylon 1900 .
Extremely dark, black.
Married to an American. Protestant Christian. His father had converted.
We are proud to be Sudras
mudaliar caste
The Mudaliar (or Mudali) is a prominent, historically high-ranking Tamil title and surname primarily used by communities in Tamil Nadu, Sri Lanka, and among Tamil diaspora. It is associated with forward castes and groups like Thondaimandala Vellalars, Sengunthars, and Kondaikatti Vellalars. Historically, the title was bestowed upon elite administrators and army officers during the Chola era.
Key details about the Mudaliar community:
Significance: The title signifies “first person” or “leader” in Tamil.
Primary Groups: The title is largely used by Vellalars (land-owning/agrarian, specifically Thuluva and Kondaikatti) and Sengunthars (traditionally weavers and traders).
Historical Role: They were highly influential in administration, agriculture, and local governance, often holding commanding positions under kings.
Social Standing: They are traditionally classified as a forward caste within the Tamil Nadu, though various subgroups exist.
Variations: Mudaliar, Mudali, Mudaliyar, and Muthaliyar are common spelling variations.
Regional Usage: While predominantly in Tamil Nadu, Mudaliyars also held high positions during British and Dutch rule in Sri Lanka.
Note: The Mudaliar title is sometimes shared across distinct community groups (Vellalar vs. Sengunthar), which can have different sub-caste origins.
SUDRAS hold power in India. The supposedly brahminical b j p has become sudrafied , and hence the aggression. This is making everybody uneasy.
In the case of Sri Lanka the Mudaliyar title was given by the Brits and Dutch to both Sinhalese and Tamils
They could be of any caste/community (all Sudra). But prominent leaders in the community. A variation of the English Baronet title (Sir) that does not get inherited
Why go all the way to Bahadur Shah Zafar?
Jahangir was 50% Rajput.
This is why the Mughal Empire cannot be compared to European colonialism. It’s completely a-historical.
The Mughals co-opted local dynasties by marrying Rajput women and incorporating Rajputs into the royal family. They effectively “Indianized” themselves (not that “India” as a nation-state existed).
Under the model of European colonialism, the ruling groups never intermarried with the “natives”.
Unfortunately, people on BP have much less training in History than I have.
they did intermarry. that’s how we have angloindians, burghers in Sri Lanka, Eurasians in Malaysia etc.
good faith engagement, with bad faith low signal nonfactual nonsense, is a Sisyphean task.
Just because you don’t like a comment doesn’t make it “low signal” or “nonfactual”.
I don’t appreciate passive aggression. In fact, it’s one of the things I hate most in the world.
Don’t play this game with me. I do not tolerate rudeness.
You are correct.
However, the British did not incorporate “natives” into their royal family.
The Mughals did. Rajput women became the mothers of future emperors.
So there is a qualitative difference.
this was a invader’s prerogative. no mughal princees was married too Hindu royal male.
so it was one sided.
According to Shariah, a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man without him converting to Islam.
Muslim men cannot marry women other than Christians or Jews without the woman converting to Islam.
I may be wrong (don’t quote me on this) but I believe Mughal princesses rarely got married since they were superior to even Muslim noblemen. I would assume the only appropriate match for a Mughal princess would be Safavid or Ottoman royalty.
Edit: I assume Mughal princesses could marry within the family since Islam does allow cousin marriage.
Just because Shariah rules don’t allow for true integration, doesn’t mean that the one-sided integration/oppression project Mughals indulged in can be called assimilation.
I don’t think you are going to change your views on the Mughals. But keep in mind that your views are not the academic consensus.
The Mughals were translating the “Mahabharata” and the “Ramayana” into Persian. So they were by no means the “oppressor” you want to paint them as.
My very limited point is that the word “colonialism” doesn’t apply to pre-modern empires. I don’t think any serious academic would argue that it does.
I thought in this forum we don’t really care much about academic consensus? Anyway, history of the subcontinent has largely been written and influenced by the Islamo-Marxist academic elite that can accept nothing but deification of all things Muslim and a demonization of all things native.
I am willing to agree that not all of them were tyrant-oppressors. Akbar was truly a great ruler who tried his best to synthesize something unique and was a true patron of native culture. That does not however, undo the more than 2 centuries of extractive misrule by the dynasty.
I can’t speak for other people but I very much care about academic consensus. The views of Phd holding historians are worth taking much more seriously than those of members of the general public–most of whom have no training in the Humanities. The state of Humanities education in South Asia is generally abysmal. Engineers and computer programmers are not meant to be taken seriously when it comes to History, Sociology etc.
“Islamo-Marxist academic elite”– Honestly, this sounds like a conspiracy theory. Everyone who has views that you don’t like is not out to get you.
Unfortunately from your perspective, Hindu Nationalists don’t tend to succeed in academia.
I really don’t mind if you never change your views on the Mughals since it seems those views aren’t affected by historical evidence.
I can’t speak for other people but I very much care about academic consensus. The views of Phd holding historians are worth taking much more seriously than those of members of the general public–most of whom have no training in the Humanities.
It wasn’t too long ago that ideology forward Indian historians arrived at and pushed consensus on AIT. Heck, I remember reading it Romila Thapar’s books that were part of my college history curricula. And yes, I am a humanities student too. Just took me a while to see past the brainwashing that was delivered to me in college.
Consensus is just that – what a bunch of people believe and there is nothing special about beliefs of academics especially when we know how politically driven views on Indian history have been. The problem is Pakistani/Islamic voices never turn their critical gaze inwards whereas Indian humanities types can only criticize the Indian/Hindu. As the
Unfortunately from your perspective, Hindu Nationalists don’t tend to succeed in academia.
Very true. Thankfully things are changing and awareness is gradually increasing. Hopefully things will hit a critical mass before long and we’ll see some sort of balance restored.
Ndg: The problem is Pakistani/Islamic voices never turn their critical gaze inwards whereas Indian humanities types can only criticize the Indian/Hindu
XTM: Very true +1
“There is nothing special about beliefs of academics”– There is. Academics are trained to critically assess texts. They have to cite their sources.
The average person just goes by WhatsApp history. This applies to Pakistanis too–many of whom believe very stupid things.
You’re entitled to your POV but I don’t take people without the proper credentials seriously.
As for “politically driven views” on Indian history, currently your government is re-writing textbooks to state that the Mughals lost battles that they actually won. This is disinformation and propaganda.
The Brits translated all types of literature into English.
The point is that the Mughals created a syncretic Indo-Islamic culture.
They are not some kind of evil “oppressor” as Hindu nationalists would like to paint them as. No serious historian would subscribe to this point of view.
Yeah Aurangzeb was really the epitome of a liberal ruler under whom India’s culture flourished.
I feel both Akbar & Aurangzeb are excessively glorified and vilified..
I doubt conditions in India were all that different.
Do we see it from the vantage of aam admi (common folk), lower gentle (bhadralok) or high cultural (raja’s).
In pre-democratic societies; it’s really difficult to assess such things.
Hindu nationalists of course have their views on Aurangzeb Alamgir.
But professor Trushke has written an entire book sifting the truth from the propaganda.
Anyway, Aurangzeb was one emperor. His brother Dara was translating Hindu texts into Persian.
also by Akbar’s time, Muslims were ruling northindia for more than 500 years.
there were obviously many Muslim commoner young men. but they were desi. So…..
The point is that royal families don’t intermarry with commoners (whether the royal in question is male or female)
I believe Princess Diana was the first commoner to enter the British royal family in quite a long time.
when you resort to such pathetic nastiness, then an obligatory reminder that studying “musicology” is not the same as studying ‘history’.
Settler colonialism is a form of colonialism, as we have seen in Australia, North America and Latin America. The fact that the Indians of the subcontinent were simply too numerous to be genocided to minimal numbers, unlike the aboriginal natives of Australia and North America, and also too stubborn in their faith unlike, say the Persians, does not somehow mean that the Turushka invaders who decided to squat in the subcontinent for a few generations weren’t colonial invaders.
The actual history is coldly unambiguous, but because the facts don’t support your prejudice, you resort to such low-signal nastiness.
To pretend that Babur, Mahmud Ghazni et al were not “invaders” and that calling them as such is a “Hindu Nationalist” position, is gaslighting.
This is the mention in the Golden Book of India and Ceylon
I am aware that many EIC officers in the early days heavy mixed with Indians, but this fell off later (especially post 1857) and the divide became permenant. And no British monarch was marrying Indians, even with Indian royalty.
Exactly.
The British didn’t incorporate “natives” in their royal family. The Mughals did.
William Dalrymple has written “White Mughals” which discusses a famous marriage between an Englishman and an Indian (Muslim) noblewoman.
But when British women started arriving in India in large numbers this kind of “race mixing” became forbidden.
Colonialism as such depends on separating the rulers from the “natives”.
became permenant. And no British monarch was marrying Indians, even with Indian royalty.
Not directly/ Princess Diana gggMother was an Indian woman.
https://abcnews.com/News/princess-dianas-hidden-ancestral-secret-revealed/story?id=19401903
Indeed. However broad the term colonialism, there is a qualitative difference between conquest by a population who’s homeland is in marching distance and one that is on the other side of the world. While Razib and others have cited (on this blog) that Khorasan/Turan people did have a self-conception as being not-black (as opposed to most Indians). They existed on a continuum with N Indians, and clearly didn’t practice anything like a one-drop rule to perpetuate racial separateness. Colonialism as a label is most apt when the demographic encounter is between two highly diverged groups within humanity, i’d say. The way Ireland and the plantation of ulster is considered a laboratory of colonialism is, however, inconsistent with this.
>They existed on a continuum with N Indians, and clearly didn’t practice anything like a one-drop rule to perpetuate racial separateness.
The migration into and domination of the Mughal court with Persian and Turkic immigrants bears evidence otherwise, no?
+1
The Mughals were Imperialists not colonists
Thank you.
“Colonialism” is an absolutely a-historical term to describe pre-modern empires.
Admin Note: there is no need to be adversarial. This is an academic discussion; shall write a Precedent post tmrw.
We removed “personal comments.” Everyone should remain above board otherwise email or get in touch.
Agreed.
Mughals were just the average conqeurors of the pre modern age. They came, defeated the previous kingdoms, replaced those guys as the sovereign and continued to collect taxes from the peasantry. Intermarried with other royalty, formed alliances, and became part of the land. Same happened in Turkey with the Ottomans, or Persia with the Safavids, etc etc. Nobody ever called Alexander a ”colonizer” for defeating everyone in Asia.
European colonial pursuits were uniquely different since they never planned on intermixing or settling down, but were doing so to loot and plunder. Their taxes were not spent locally but to enrich a foriegn nation half a world away.
+1
The India Subcontinent, and its cultural behemoth, Bollywood, dances and swoons to Urdu but makes money and learns in English (as is this blog).
English however is “owned” by certain powers.
Urdu is fundamentally owned within the Indian Subcontinent. We are taking a pause till tomorrow for any substantive posts.
Note To all; any of the Authors are welcome to write a Precedent post on this Topic.
Bahadur Shah Zafar II looks like he was 40% AASI, meaning he was more Indian than most Brahmins.
@XTM – Pray tell how this completely a-factual conjecture is not a “personal attack” by the same token that you removed my comments for.
How is it personal; we removed the Overlord bit..
Then how was my comment calling Mughals the Holy Cow of South-Asianists personal?
If you like repost it and we will remove the offending bits.
Its fine. No big deal but you should’ve probably done that instead of removing my comment completely. Consistency is all that is needed.
Tbh this is a long arc of moderation; it’s now come to the sniff test.
But apologies next time we’ll be more precise
“In pictures: Sikh pilgrims arrive in Pakistan from India to celebrate Baisakhi festival”
https://www.dawn.com/news/1990522/in-pictures-sikh-pilgrims-arrive-in-pakistan-from-india-to-celebrate-baisakhi-festival
I will also be singing bhajans at a Baisakhi event in Lahore next week.