The comment thread seems to have started speculating on race and genetics.
It is interesting to understand how class, colour, creed, caste, genetics and community all coincide. I may expand on this as it goes on but it doesn’t seem that the Commentariat are as interested in discussing Nepal, Syria and/or South India?
This is a good question. Before we have this discussion though.
No pushing of the internet’s horrible IQ theories on race. There is an excellent book called – “The Bell curve”. Years of academic study and nearly every researcher got ostracised for it.
Both the Liberals and Racists tend to be obsessively idiotic, and so much as gentleman’s agreements don’t really work online, let me make it.
Rakshabandhan Mubarak to all Hindus who celebrate
thank you 🙂
my whatsapp is spammed with memes on avoiding being ‘Rakhi-ed’ by some of my single friends.
There seems to be some confusion about “race” and “nationality”.
“Indian” is a nationality. It’s not a race.
I have second cousins who are Indian passport holders. I am not racially different from them.
More generally, Punjabis in Indian Punjab are not “racially” different from Punjabis in Pakistan.
Race is a social construct (as has been correctly said by someone in the Commentariat).
However, there are usually three “races”: White, Black and Asian.
Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc are all “Asian”.
If we want to talk about US Census categories, we are all “South Asian”.
I believe the census allows people to self-identify so I can write in “Pakistani” if I really want.
Desis are not the same kind of ‘Asian’ as East asians tho.
And like it or not, accept it or not, ‘Indian’ is the primary label and identity for the Indian subcontinent.
“South Asian” and “East Asian” are different census categories.
In the UK, “Asian” means “South Asian”.
“Indian” is a nationality and not a race.
I would be Indian if I held an Indian passport.
The only “races” are Black, White and Asian.
so………you are agreeing with me then. Good. Laterz.
I have no problem with being South Asian. I never have,
I am not “Indian”. “Indian” is a nationality. That’s what people on this site are wrongly pushing against.
You seem to have a problem with the separate identity of Pakistanis. It’s been 80 years, I think you can let it go.
Great to know that the Indian side was pretty much spot on for this debate. It’s good that you’ve conceded the existence of the Indian race and only have gripes that its named after your archnemesis. The Germanic race exists in a set of disparate nations but that doesn’t make the Czechs, Austrians and Germans a different race. The same goes for the Indian race as well.
You still don’t understand the difference between race and nationality.
“Germanic race”– The only races are “White” “Black ” and “Asian”.
:”Germanic” is not a race. You know who used to go on and on about the “Aryan” race? That’s right, Der Fuhrer himself.
“Indian” is a nationality. I am not Indian. Two of my grandparents were born in what is today India. They were subjects of British India.
British India and “India” are not the same thing.
Don’t attempt to argue with people who are far more intelligent than you.
You’re just wrong in the conception of race. There are many white races such as Germanic, Slavic, etc. Just as there are many black and Asian races as well. Your categorization of people is arbitrary and convoluted while also lacking in any real life utility. The Asian race means effectively nothing if it cannot distinguish between groups as disparate as Indian, Turkic, Chinese and Arab. You don’t understand the concept of a race and the reason for its conception.
In the US, the only races are “White” “Black” and “Asian”.
Anyway, as you said, race is a social construction.
This is a completely meaningless debate. You are free to believe what you like.
If “Indian” is a race then so is “Chinese”.
No one seriously believes this.
Yes, both Indian and Chinese are races. They become racial groups due to the existence of a racial consciousness among its people. There are several such groups of people that act as a race and they don’t fall into the simple buckets of White, Black and Asian. But perhaps you have never felt belonging to another set of human beings therefore you cannot conceptualize it. I sympathize with you if that is the case with you.
You don’t get to define “race” however you like. Words have standard definitions.
Chinese people are East Asian. They are not racially distinct from Japanese etc.
“Perhaps you’ve never felt belonging to another set of human beings”– I feel a sense of belonging to 250 million Pakistanis but that is because we share the same nationality and love the same motherland.
It has nothing to do with race.
All those words to say you don’t understand race. If you did understand race you would simply posit another definition and then explain why my definition doesn’t comport to it. In the lack of that logic you resort to pedantry.
I understand much more than you think.
Still not a single clear definition. In a real debate you’re supposed to counter an incorrect definition by using the correct definition. But I guess this is what happens when you aren’t taught things correctly.
Read the Wikipedia on Race.
The world is no longer “Eurocentric”. High time in fact.
Kabir, maybe try to not take the bait?
Why don’t you advise the Indian trolls not to provoke me?
Honestly you both provoke / bait each other. If everyone wants to have the last word, there’s little beyond deleting comments that XTM or I can do. Neither of us likes to do that.
I like reading some of the American colloquialisms that you use in your sparring matches.
We can all have difference of opinions without being snarky. This is true for everybody. It will just make for a better space.
I will not let Pak Fauj be insulted. The Indian trolls need to get the message.
“Neutering” Pak Fauj is absolutely unacceptable.
Your countrymen joke about driving me to suicide. I am not the problem. The Indians here are off their rockers.
oh I’m grateful for the ‘distinct’ identity that Pakistanis have fabricated for themselves. Imagine having to bear the cross of the whole grooming gangs bullshit?
I got no issues with Pakistanis being ‘separate’. None at all.
And “grooming gangs”!
Your country is the most unsafe for women.
Didn’t Isaq Darr’s grandson literally kidnap some foreigners a couple weeks ago?
https://theprint.in/world/at-centre-of-abduction-sexual-assault-case-involving-pakistan-dy-pms-grandson-a-crypto-deal-offer/2978434/
Sure sweetie, you all are known for ogling every White woman who enters your country.
How pathetic !
It’s an entirely pointless conversation. Most of the 18th and 19th century was spent in creating the Indian racial consciousness. Gandhi was respected primarily because he was the first Indian figure to understand this consciousness during his visit to South Africa and Britain. At this point the consciousness has crystalized to the point where it is obvious for anyone outside it that the Indian race is a coherent social entity. Only those within its framework who feel slighted rail against it like they rail against anything Indian using the white man’s education to highlight their superiority trying to distance themselves from their own skin.
Egg-jhactly. Its a bizarre self-hating schizophrenic concoction of half-truths and bigoted BS. They are simply flailing away quixotically while being seen as of the ‘Indian’ race.
Like it or not, we are all ‘desi’. And the idiocies of the ‘green’ desis impact us as well. Just an example, groypers have increasingly started using videos of Pak/Bangladesh to slander and ply the stereotype of ‘dirty Indians’. In the long run, its best if we pull along these misguided greenbros into prosperity as well.
Heck, the day isn’t far when we can afford it without breaking a sweat. But before any of that happens, we do need to …neuter the terrorism threat that is the PakMil organization.
And back to your usual tricks.
Try “Neutering” Pak Fauj. See what we do to you.
Pak Fauj is the only thing standing between Pakistan and Indian hegemony.
They got neutered in Op Sindoor – with satellite pictures to prove it. From Nur Khan to Bholari. etc etc
Hence desperately looking for sugar daddies everywhere. oh sorry, I meant billion dollar cash arrangements and ‘defence’ alliances.
Try any further misadventures and you all will be taught a lesson. We will respond with disproportionate force.
The reason you hate Pak Fauj is because you want us Pakistani Muslims to be ashamed of who we are and accept India’s hegemony.
We are proud that we are separate from you.
yes, yes “disproportionate force” indeed. PakMil will award itself more shiny medals for getting its bases Brahmosed, while failing to muster any retaliation on Bhartiya bhoomi.
I wonder what comes next? Supreme failed marshal? Ultra failed marshal? maybe they will reverse it. Marshal Failed. Mashallah.
Try it.
I would be happy to see you all being taught a lesson.
Nothing and no one will ever be above the national security of the Islamic Republic.
Is this a rare moment of honesty from you Kabir? Equating terrorism with ‘Pak Fauj’?
What the hell are you talking about?
I mentioned neutering terrorism in a conversation that didn’t involve you, and you jumped in taking ‘offense’ on behalf of ‘Pak Fauj’. The implication is obvious.
The phrase you used was “neutering Pak Fauj”
My reading comprehension is not the problem.
Don’t play these games.
Moving here…
Hold up, lets be clear 100% clear. Above everything else, I want Kabir to be safe. I do not want to have any fun at his expense if he feels mentally affected to the point of self harm.
I cannot stress this enough.
100%, Always, safety first. There is a line between fun and danger, I want to be well away from the red, orange or yellow zones, fully in the green,
Now, as long as Kabir, is calling me names, correcting my english, re-establishing his pedigree, all the usual Punjabi chest thumping howls, I take it that all my rib pokes are mere barbs of annoyance and no real harm has occurred.
You can try to turn this around and point to it as evidence of my subliminal cheering, it isn’t.
That he chooses to weaponise my concern is a good sign, standard Kabirism, weaponise sexuality, concern for him, verbal threats as acutal violence, etc, any silly angle.
Carry on.
“I want Kabir to be safe”–
Joking about driving someone to suicide is not on. You crossed that line.
You don’t get to pretend to have concern for me.
The fact that you admit to “having fun” trolling me is deeply damning and actually undermines your case.
Leave me alone.
My intent is to expose you for what you are. While you keep professing to be a liberal, you are in reality a deeply regressive, insecure, inferiority complex ridden individual.
I admit to enjoy bringing this out.
At the same time, I really am not joking about the self harm issue on the internet and really do not want to engage in that.
So, let it remain fun and games. But raise your hand if it’s not.
Also, stay off my threads and you won’t get slapped about so much.
Stop weaponizing fake concern.
Rest assured any time you try to “slap me about”, I will give you hell.
You are messing with someone far more intelligent then you will ever be.
I want XTM to see that you are the problem child.
That’s right, go running, weepy, whiny, crying. But I’m bullied, but I’m all alone, but i’m a minority, blah, blah, no one really buys your sob stories. Especially when they are followed in the same breath with muh American, muh World Bank, muh English, muh servants, muh mansion.
While you are woefully deficient in vocabulary, wit and mental dexterity you are not completely powerless, you can avoid all this unpleasantness by simply staying off my threads.
Sweetie, this isn’t your thread.
What you are basically saying is you will continue to be a bully.
You really need to be taught a lesson.
Look in a mirror.
XTM, did you delete the comments where Q tries to caste shame?
C’mon man, you can’t do that. You need to leave that sort of thing up for posterity, you can’t just wipe out behaviour like that because the thread is getting heavy.
I especially would like Calvin to see, he seems to be a well meaning liberal, it is an educational experience to see what Pakistanis think and say to us.
Also Kabir’s apostrophe policing as a sign of superiority, despite not understanding basic expressions. It’s a gold mine, you’ve covered up.
Don’t open this up again.
“Despite not understanding basic expressions”– Honey, I got 800 out of 800 on the SAT verbal at age 13. The same cannot be said about you.
My use of English is far superior to yours and always has been.
50 comments were deleted. Some of mine and some of OM’s and RNJ’s.
You always have the choice not to respond to me. The fact that you resort to vicious trolling undermines your moral credibility.
Rest assured that if you insist on playing this game with me, you will be the one crying in a corner.
I just pity how incredibly pathetic you are.
Oooh, I’m slivering, silvering, silver fishing, save me from the SAT attack.
Is there anything more pathetic than a grown adult touting his childhood test scores on the internet?
The most pathetic person on this site is you thinking that you can drive me to suicide.
You are an internet nuisance at worst.
You have zero impact on my actual life.
You seem to have a lot of extra time to troll Pakistanis.
The most pathetic person on this site is you thinking that you can drive me to suicide.
Do I need to point out the poor English usage here, or does your SAT score cover it?
Requesting all to not go down this path again. XTM has cleaned up some comments in the previous thread and I will also be doing the same to maintain the focus on the topic.
Thank you all 🙂 As enjoyable as the entertainment has been with mutual trolling, let us now stop.
Fair enough. No more from me.
I have a long track record of dealing with bullies. You are not the first and you won’t be the last.
I am perfectly capable of destroying any delusions of grandeur you have.
What post?
//I especially would like Calvin to see, he seems to be a well meaning liberal, it is an educational experience to see what Pakistanis think and say to us.//
I know what pakistanis think and say about us, why do you think I have not interacted with Q before or not read the discussion on this site before writing comments.
I know that the pakistanis here look down on Indian culture, Q at least is hinduphobic, I just dont see the point in engaging them again and again on the same point. Ditto for Kabir who engaged with you guys again and again and then cries because his pride cant allow him to leave your criticism unanswered, it’s a toxic, pointless conversation that is going nowhere.
I am surprised that both of you still want to keep repeating the same things over and over.
Cool, just so you know. I was a little worried, thx for the clarity.
“The Pakistanis here look down on Indian culture”–
Indosaurus himself has insulted Urdu and called Arabs “camel riders”. This criticism applies to him as well.
The TNT is alive and well. And yet you all criticize the Quaid for it. Every day on this blog is more evidence that “Our heroes are their villains”.
Indosaurus jokes about driving people to suicide. That’s a new low on this site.
He’s the problem. Not me.
I think your heroes are going to go through a rebranding process soon. Because Ghori and Ghaznavi are going to be become enemies as the Pashtuns abandon this sinking ship as well.
Good luck with that.
My grandfather was born and brought up in Peshawar.
Ghori was Tajik, Ghaznavi was Karluk Turk, but Persianized. They can still be Abbus of some Pakistanis.
Some hot and mostly cold war between Pakistan and Afghanistan is inevitable. Taliban are uniquely incapable of running a modern state and economy. Even though Pakistan tries hard to fail, Afghanistan will keep failing harder than Pakistan.
The Pakistani problem is asymmetry of ambition: Taliban will hold territory and butcher Punjabis if they get a chance. Pakistan has all the advantages in the world but does not act despite repeated betrayals. Pakistanis have taken up some territory across Durand line but it can get a lot worse for Afghanistan.
To be clear. 100% not joking on online safety. Please be safe. All my comments are only for gentle jesting, not to be taken seriously.
If you feel like self harm, please say so, at any time.
“Please be safe”– Stop with the fake concern.
The fact that you think you have the power to make me off myself just testifies to the depths of your delusions.
I’ve dealt with real bullies whom I had to see every day in school. White boys.
You can not do anything to me that a White man couldn’t.
Not fake. Ever since I wrote that Jason Arday post, it has been bothering me. You do seem in fine fettle though. Just making sure.
If you are really concerned, you would stop bullying me.
There’s no law that says you have to respond even to provocation.
The problem with you is it seems you have a pretty empty life and too much spare time.
But anyway, you are just a nuisance. I don’t take Indians seriously.
That’s cool Kabir, as long as you are not taking it seriously.
I enjoy exposing all pretentiousness, you just are an exceptionally easy mark. It is hardly any effort.
One does not stop driving on the odd chance of an accident. Regardless, I will be checking out on others who think they can race but have a faulty engine.
Fake concern.
If I actually did take you seriously and end up dead what would you do? Say “I’m sorry didn’t mean it”.
You enjoy exposing “pretentiousness”. I enjoy putting people like you in your place.
I’ve said many times that we need a ceasefire.
If you insist on being a bully, I will deal with you as such. I don’t bow down in front of anyone–particularly Indians.
You claim fake victimhood all the time and try to censor people on the back of it. That cannot be allowed.
Online safety is important. the instances of people self harming are too numerous to ignore.
Doing the best I can. 🤷 Might come across as fake, sensible people will appreciate what I am trying to do.
So basically you are saying that for you being a bully is more important than any so-called concern.
You need therapy.
I really don’t want to deal with you again today. But if you so much as take my name, I will have to put you in your place.
At this point, a ceasefire is the only alternative because you are incapable of voluntarily following courtesy guidance. Or was that whole scheme dropped entirely? It’s hard to keep up.
“Sensible” people would have recognized you for the troll and provocateur you are.
Get a life. Touch grass. Stop harassing me.
Kind of tired of punching down so much anyway. Stay safe.
Guys, the whole point of the new thread is to do this. Please shift the convo there.
Finally you admitted that you are “punching down”.
You are the very definition of a bully. You think you’re the big man.
I don’t take you seriously but someone else might if you engage in similar behavior with them. So you need to introspect about your own behavior.
“Stay Safe”– After all that nastiness, you condescend to me by expressing fake concern.
You need to get a real life.
“You can not do anything to me that a White man couldn’t.”
Aahahahaha!
Calm down BB.
Anyway, I don’t take any of you seriously.
You all have serious delusions of grandeur.
This was a genetics blog before but it appears that most commentators don’t have any clue about genetic history here. I made the post in the other thread which got deleted.
This is a rough guideline:
South Asia has three main ancestry components based on phenotype
1) AASI – Black – dark hair, dark eyed, dark skin. Mostly hunter gatherers, been present in South Asia for almost 70,000 years. This is the principal component of Indian ancestry. Most Indians have between 30-60% AASI.. Pakistanis have anywhere between 10-35%.
2) Iranian Farmer (Zagros) – brown skin, dark hair and brown eyes- likely brought farming to South Asia – arrived here 8,000 years ago.. this is the principal component of IVC ancestry. This is also the principal component of Pakistani ancestry with anywhere from 30-60%.. Indians also have this from anywhere between 30-40%.
3) Steppe (Aryan). White skin, blonde or light brown hair, light colored eyes including blue.
These were a warrior people originally from the Caucusus with recent European input, and they brought Vedic religion to South Asia including Indo Aryan languages like Sanskrit/proto Snaskrit, almost 3,500 years ago. They form about 5-20% of ancestry amongst Indians, with some castes like Jatts scoring much higher. They also form 15-35% of ancestry in Pakistani groups.. peaking amongst Dards, North Punjabis and Pasthuns.
The mixing of these three groups have happened in various amounts in various places which produces the racial diversity in South Asia. Since the caste system froze genetic mixing 2000 years ago, Indian genetics overtime did not mix enough to produce a uniform race. This is why Indians are not one race, but several.
Steppe Aryans had the most cultural impact on South Asia, since they are the ones that brough Vedic Hinduism and all the Indo Aryan languages and installed themselves at the top of the religious hierarchy.
The first genetics bit is roughly right.
The part about Aryan invasion theory is a colonial construct, and mostly wrong.
Iron age starts in India, specifically in south India. Caste wise distribution of Steppe DNA isn’t conclusive of this theory either, much as it is often made out to be by casual race theorists on the internet.
As usual, a gist of truth twisted to colonial/racist ends & propagated by the doubly colonised mind that keeps having to reforge it’s chains to make sure the inherited links are still secure.
It’s not as if the genetic story is relevant either. The Slavic and Turkic races have a much more brutal history than the Indian race does. Furthermore, if genetics were the only criteria for the categorization of a race then there would be no large racial groups as we see in real life. Race is almost always a social construct based on a shared cultural heritage and a racial consciousness among its constituents. The only place on Earth where the Indian racial consciousness is at its weakest is in India due to the assertion of the sub-racial groups. However, as soon as you move to South Africa, Britain, US, etc you will feel the Indian racial consciousness asserting itself in a much more coherent manner.
Ethnicity is more about shared culture, language etc…
Ethnicities tend to be a lot more tight-knit and homogenous than races. Furthermore, Ethnicity as a concept is a lot older than race which is much more recent in comparison only a few centuries old at best.
“Ethnicity”, “Race” and “Nationality” are distinct concepts.
Punjabi is an ethnicity. Indian is a nationality. Asian is a race.
It’s really not that difficult.
Asian isn’t a race. Its a mere geographical marker. It means absolutely nothing.
OK. Please at least read the Wikipedia on “race”.
Indian is a nationality. That’s the main point.
Aryan inavsion happened.. the only reason we call it a “migration” now is to be politically correct or as a cope ( if you are a Hindunat or a Dravidian nat)
Every single piece of evidence points towards the Aryans being making a very unfriendly entry into South Asia.
The Sintashta were expert metallurgists and caches of weapons have been found at their burial sites far advanced than anything found in India. They had the horse and the chariot providing battlefield advantage.. their migration/invasion is ydna heavy showing disproportionate amount of their males copulating with local females. (Hint: Rape)
Their religion was adopted at the highest levels of Indian society. Upper castes having more of their DNA shows they likely created a caste system subjugation the natives. Their language permeated down to the every village level showing complete dominance.
Their ancestors the Yamnaya pretty much committed a mass genocide of Europeans ( we have proof of this). Their is no reason to not believe their Sintastha descendants were any different. The only thing is that they could not kill 90% of Indian males like they did in Europe. Likely due to higher Indian population.
Indians coping about this being some colonial theory invented to keep them down is total copium. The 19th century linguists were pretty right. We now have evidence.
Except there is no archeological evidence whatsoever. No battle, no fight. The Indus valley decline is conclusively climate change related. The timeline makes no sense as the Vedas keep honouring Saraswati river as a lush expanse of water, but we now know it is the Ghaggar-Hakra with IVC site alignment.
When the Indus script is deciphered and you realise that the Indian subcontinent is the mother of all civs, ushering in the Iron age and mathematics, I will still fully expect you to tighten your choke collar an extra notch.
I literally gave you a list of evidences that support AIT but you now claim there is no “archeological evidence” which is just cope. We already know that Indian government is suppressing archeological evidence by hiding the 80% steppe sample discovered in Sinauli. For Indians this appears to mess with their religious myths. Fact is that the core Hindu beliefs were all brought to India by white European conquerors.
IVC is irrelevant here.. the only relevant part about IVC is that it had no Steppe input. We dont know why it declined.. blaming climate is just a theory which may it may not be true. And nobody knows where Saraswati river truly was.. your claim about it being in India is also politically motivated
There is a reason why nobody takes Indians seriously when it comes to this topic. They have invented complete lies because its religious to them.
Except you provided no real proof did you, just random declarations about how chariots provide a battlefield advantage.
Chariots have been dated in India far earlier, from the Chalcolithic age
https://www.harappa.com/content/chariots-chalcolithic-rock-art-india
Meanwhile the first Iron implements ever known to man were unearthed in south India. I need not emphasise the incredible technological advantage Iron is.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62e36jm4jro
Iron from south India was the source of the famous Damascus steel, it took 5000 years for anyone in the world to come anywhere close in terms of quality.
No one takes Aryan Invasion theory seriously anymore except the colonised insisting on remaining so.
I love that you have to throw in an Indian Gov conspiracy theory to support your inane claims.
The harappa link you posted literally shows the same timeline as the Aryan Invasion : ‘..a date between 1800-1200 BC for these paintings‘
It does not predate the Aryan invasion, and its completely irrelevant.
Irrelevant and not related to the topic at hand.
This is the default theory for pretty much everyone outside India, they changed the name to ”Aryan migration” as a concession so Indians don’t throw a hissy fit. Otherwise the genetic data is pretty clear what happened, and tracks with Yamnaya invasion of Europe. It just wasn’t as complete as the Yamnaya one.
You have not addressed any of the points, not even one that I listed, while deliberately lying or obfuscating the core points.
Predates steppe DNA inclusion. You realise that the painting is in MP, well before the decline of late Indus Valley even according to European scholars stuck on AIT.
Besides, according to people studying their own history, it is a lot earlier.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327011415_BEYOND_HARAPPA_CHARIOTS_AND_HORSES_IN_PREHISTORIC_INDIA_Dr_Shiv_Sastry_2018
There are very inexplicable core inconsistencies to AIT. No.1 being that it does not correspond to archeological data. Nor geographies described in text, nor the opposing myths of Indians, Iranians and the Greeks.
Obv Iron age is completely relevant. It is dated to 2,953–3,345 BCE in TN, that is well before AIT
https://historika.org/sinauli-excavations-revealing-a-4000-year-old-chariots/
Sinauli chariot dated to 2000 -1800 BC in UP.
So when is this AIT exactly? After the Iron age in TN?
Before Saraswati dries up (Dated 3000 – 2500 BC as a lush river)
But the woman at Rakhagiri dated pre 2000 BC has no steppe DNA
Stop quibbling and give dates Q. My point is that AIT has irreconcilable problems, but people will keep trying to fit the square peg because it was given to them by the West.
Unfortunately nothing you have said is relevant here.
1) The Sinauli chariot may not even be a chariot.
2) The Sinauli site is controversial. High Steppe samples from this site were leaked and then retracted after Niraj Rai threatened the leaker in public X post. We know the Indian govt is suppressing data here.
3) Your location of Saraswati is wrong, so your conclusion is also wrong.
4)I don’t see what relation the Iron Age in South India has anything to do with AIT.
So basically there is no archeological data that supports your theory (OIT) while it still lends credence to AIT. While Linguistic and now DNA data proves, beyond doubt AIT/AMT.
This is why nobody outside of India takes kook theories of Indians seriously.
Aryan culture in India came from outside India and so did some of the most core Hindu cultural and religious beliefs. The Aryans were much more brutal invaders than anything seen since by Indians. If Indians were 50% Steppe like Northern Europeans where rapine was more complete, they too, just like European neo pagans, would be currently kanging on the foreign Aryan invaders, but because they are only 10-15%, they have to deny the obvious.
I love the way you argue this with no timelines and instead throw in Indian gov conspiracy theories.
Since we are rejecting science and just getting into polemics.
I get that your fully colonised mind can only accept 19th century theories by Gobineau, Muller and Macaulay and will reject any data that will not fit.
Also, since you’ve opened the door to ‘kanging’, you lot are no longer Aryan as you have rejected our black god Krishna, his teachings and his morality.
Instead, I suggest you spend your time on the origins of the Caananite god you currently worship and try to reconcile his pronouncements through his Prophets promising Israel to the Jews (the covenant) and consider why you’re all still hand wringy about the Palestinian cause.
Our sympathies for the Palestinians are at least logically based on Dharma.
I leave you to it.
And just to be clear what I mean here.
Aryan and Swastika are Indian Hindu terms, they are not racial terms as adopted by the Nazi’s and perverted by them.
Their meaning is very clear in an Indian context and need to be treated as such, reclaimed from the European abominations.
You’re free to call steppe DNA whatever you like, and impute all the rapes etc.
DNA is pretty 21st century but you deny it. So good luck. There are no conspiracy theories, what I say is true:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianHistory/comments/1jpcamn/niraj_rai_and_the_archeological_survey_of_india/
Half truths, once again. The Jews broke the covenant and are a cursed people in the Quran:
“And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.”
-Quran 5:13
Iran is called the land of the Aryans. Nothing to do with Hinduism.
And Swastika probably predates even the Aryans, earliest examples of it are found 15,000 years ago.
DNA studies are very new, and interpreted largely by people with AIT on the brain.
Silly boy, Swasth Tika is obv Sanskrit.
Some poor fellows are worshipping their ishta daiva who’s made all sorts of happy deals with them, when along comes someone else, appropriates, and declares the original gang apostate. Sounds like a recipe for an intractable problem.
“Swasth Tika is obv Sanskrit.”
The ‘symbol’ that we now call Swasth Tika is at least 15,000 years old, earliest discovery was in Ukrain, Europe.
And Sanskrit is a sister language to Lithuanian (if you didn’t know). There is no Indian DNA amongst Europeans, but there is a lot of European DNA in India.
For those with an open mind, this is an open and shut case.
You guys are just stuck at the first stage of grief.
This argument is about where Indian culture originated.
Your argument is AASI is only found in India while there is Iranian farmer and Steppe admixture.
Now your entire claim is that a bunch of rapey steppe hordes came down on some random timeline and insist on calling them Aryan.
The DNA study is very complex because a) there are multiple incursions of steppe DNA at different times. b) a lot of it has been interpreted to fit the 19th century AIT because everyone (including me) was taught that at school
I am arguing that Indian culture is indigenous, there is no proof that large scale invasions happened into the Indus Valley civ (climate degradation only). It is highly possible that steppe incursions adopted local culture and motifs, as they did quite often in the documented cases (bactrians) etc.
I’ll get to writing it out properly, but until then, let me point you to Nick Collins excellent piece
https://nickcollins1953.substack.com/p/the-aryan-invasion-theory-refuses
Anyone calling the Indus Valley Civilization the ‘Indus Saraswati Civilization’ does not deserve to be taken seriously. There is no Saraswati river, and as such no Saraswati civilization. It’s just a forced attempt to connect IVC to Rig Veda and Vedic Hinduism, which is absurd.
Here are my thoughts:
1) OIT is bunk. There is no AASI outside of India, only little amounts in Afghanistan and even less so in Iranians. This alone proves that Indians never went outside India, only recieved ancestry from outside. So nobody should be arguing this. And yet, not only most Indian pseudo historians but even the Indian government is promoting it, even maliciously.
2) If your argument is a step away from OIT in that Indian culture is indigenous +AMT, this is just the bargaining stage on the 5 stages of grief.
Swastika is a not a local Indian motif. Sanskrit is not a local Indian language. Saraswati is not a local Indian river. All these or close sister langages related to this exist elsewhere. The entire Hindu Vedic religion is not local but had a Steppe ancestor or was brought entirely from there.
Claiming some indigeous culture related to IVC is a big cope in of itself. We don’t know much about IVC, but what if we did and it appeared that most of their culture came from Iran? No doubt you will spin that narrative somehow in favor of indigenous origin, no matter how ludicrous, but where does it stop.
So I am not the one trying to fit a narrative here, you guys are.
3) We know that Yamana from the Pontic Caspian Steppe invaded Eastern Europe and their descendants Western Europe – mostly violently replacing the male lineages. This is now documented and accepted widely in Europe amongst those familiar in the subject after revelations tied to DNA and male/female ancestry. Their descendenants (Sintastha Andronovo) went East and either them or their descendents expanded into India. Once again, DNA is proof of this, and linguistic, culture and religion is just the cherry on top. The Europeans don’t have an issue with this, but the Indians seem to be very reluctant in accepting this.
Like all pagan religions of antiquity, no doubt they adopted many beliefs/gods of the people they conquered/mixed with. But the overarching (non indigenous) culture and religion was not lost just modified. This is no different to Islam or Christianity in India. But apparently those are not considered ‘indigenous’ but Brahminical Hinduism brought from the Steppes is.
this feels reasonably high signal; Commentariat need to address, not mock it..
then why is Y-Dna Aryan etc?
they were certainly high status males?
It’s not Aryan. Arya is a cultural marker, not a racial marker. Logically if it is white people conquest you would not have dark gods.
You cannot have dark Aryaputras by this logic, due to caste endogamy. Krishna is the highest status male in the Mahabharat.
This is the trouble, you cannot square this hole without rejecting all Hindu culture, but this is exactly what Q wants.
I do not agree with the conquest theory. I think the Aryan tripartite caste/tribe structure (priests, warriors, merchants) seemed to have blended into IVC substrates.
This argumentation reminds me that the Native Americans are not native because they conquered the land from others. But that is spurious; the Aryan-Dravidian synthesis is ancient and ongoing.
So I agree it is complex but Hinduism is assimilative, integrative and imaginative (it’s been adding to the Pantheon).
I suspect this has a lot to do with Brahmins & Vedic memory, no other polytheistic or pagan culture survived. Even the Zoroastrian Magians didn’t have the same retentive power. But then Iran expressed herself in her Shi’ism..
Not to mention rejecting the chariots in Sinhauli, the identification of Saraswati, the 30,000 year horse paintings in Bhimbetka
https://www.mysteryofindia.com/2014/09/30000-years-old-rock-shelters-of-bhimbetka.html
Indus was supposed to be a civ with no knowledge of horses, and yet…
Basically, what tends to happen here, is that the AIT people reject all non AIT data, and then of course some random reddit posts with Indian gov conspiracy theories show up.
If we want to discuss this, discuss it properly, if you’re going to go around saying ‘copium’, kanging, stages of grief and other nonsense, then I think the door has opened to mockery, and it becomes a mock for all.
Agree. There’s a good discussion to be had without condescension and mockery.
If it descends to that, it’s just being disrespectful of the space.
Just another example of how OIT guys spin stories.. the horse paintings are not 30,000 years old. They are dated to 500 BCE at the oldest.. but obviously “mysteryofindia” is not going to tell you that, I guarantee.
And what reddit posts? The guy in charge of the site was literally posting those threats on X. I saw it myself.
😂 of course, if it shatters AIT, reject the input. Standard practice.
Could have easily searched wikipedia, which cites 5 different sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhimbetka_rock_shelters
If horses have been around for 10,000 years or so, and the oldest iron implements are from south India, the highest status male is a dark skinned icon worshipped as a god – AIT deserves to be in the dustbin of history.
Indians are a mixture of Steppe + Iranian farmer + AASI DNA, no contention there.
Steppe DNA has repeated multiple incursion points spread over more than 1000 years. No evidence of fights/ war/ invasion.
Rather all scripture points to climate change or fights with western facing tribes.
All the Dasu are to the west, with Avestan names.
Zoroastrianism is very Aryan coded.
https://indosaurus.substack.com/p/who-are-the-aryans?r=1mp4jc
The Wikipedia link literally says the horse paintings are “Bronze age or later” not 30,000 years old. Infact there are paintings in that cave there that date to 1500 AD.
>There is no Indian DNA amongst Europeans, but there is a lot of European DNA in India.
Half-empty vessel at it again 🙂
😂 He’s always so desperate to be white, even if it is through rape.
calm RNJ..
The Sintastha/Andronovo culture ( Aryans) were descendents of Europeans.. came about as a result of Yamanaya + Early European Farmer admixture.
Infact they had high incidences of blonde hair and colored eyes.. so they were phenotypically not very different from modern eastern and northern Europeans.
Indians have this DNA.. peaks amongst Rors and Jatts.. but in general Brahmins and UCs have the highest in a north west to south east geographical gradient.
If you dont know about this.. perhaps just stay out of the convo rather than passing snide remarks.
Cool, Jatts are in the Shudra varna. So they ‘conquered’ and put themselves at the bottom of the Varna pyramid.
Jatts are relatively late entrants to South Asia, probably during Kushan empire. Their sycthian origin is invalidated because Scythians have east asian ancestry and Jatts don’t, however very likely there were other population groups during Kushan empire that we don’t have samples of that also did not have east asian ancestry. Proto Jatts definitely came from Afghanistan.
In any case, Jatts lived in relative isolation in Sindh south-west of Thar far away from Vedic mainland of North India/Pakistan. And they only migrated to Punjab and other areas in North West, after the Arab conquests, almost 1,000 years after the Hindu caste system had calcified.
Anglo Indians are very Aryan but have a very low social status
So Aryanism isn’t necessarily correlated to social status.
Its Vedic Aryan ancestry
This is literally not how groups get status.
Ancestry is just one thing, proving it is another, and then you also need legitimacy which comes through religious & political sanction.
+1
Excellent Q, you realise that steppe DNA was a multiple incursion process.
Now, all you need to do is not reject all the other data points which conclusively shatter AIT.
The AIT theory’s biggest pillar and dating has to deal with language shift and Sanskrit diversion from the reconstructed PIE (Proto Indo..).
Sanskrit language drift was effectively halted with the composition of the Vedas using recitation algorithms (Patha Vidhi) with real-time checksum. Vedic Sanskrit is legible to Sanskrit users today 3500-5000 years later (dating the Vedas is subsequently very controversial).
If you consider how illegible Shakesperean english is to the modern day user, Chaucerian feels like another language altogether.
Sanskrit feels eternal and immutable. We know the Vedas were composed in India based on the geography descriptions.
This is where Saraswati shows up. Like the Goddess of knowledge, she points the way to the date when she was an extant river.
Therefore Vedas predate earliest steppe DNA incursion. Therefore AIT’s last pillar gets kicked out from under it.
frequent changes in pakrit and pali was one of the reasons Buddhists adopted Sanskrit.
I am sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about. I cannot even make head or tail of what you are saying here and how you are arriving to conclusions here.
But let’s break it down:
No it has nothing to do with that. PIE was spoken 6,000+ years ago. Sanskrit has been spoken 3,500 years ago. People who spoke descendant languages of PIE went to Europe around 5,000 years ago, mixed there, then came back to Asia mixing along the way right into India 3,500 years ago. Rigveda was composed around this time (3,500 years ago), so it is clear that this was a religion of the Aryans i.e the people who moved in from Europe into India. They had the same religious mythology as Europeans and spoke the same or sister language.
What in the blue hell does this even mean or imply? A lot of languages get their “drift halted” when they become religiously important. Arabic is another language which ‘got its drift halted’ and the 1,400 year old version is just as legible today because it hasn’t changed. But its besides the point because this doesnt not prove anything, and infact something completely irrelevant to anything being discussed here. I don’t understand why you throw in stuff that has nothing to do with AIT.
Any language being chanted in a hymn fashion feels that. Latin, Arabic, etc
In science, feelings do not matter, facts do.
Correction, it is Pakistan, not India. And infact parts of it may even be in Afghanistan (the Saraswati river) is probably the Helmand river as the cognate Haxarvati is present in Avestas and Avestan has no presence in India.
You don’t claim Islam is an Indian religion because the biggest sects today originate in India. So why in the world would you claim Vedic Hinduism is Indian when it is clear that it was brought from outside by an outside people.
“tea is warm, sun is hot, therefore earth is blue”
Does that make sense? No? Neither does your conclusion. Because that’s what it reads like.
It’s clear to me you don’t know what you are talking about and I don’t have time for this level of incoherence.
It’s a bit rich to say it was composed in AfPak..
It was then a part of what we know to be “Indian Civilisation.”
I doubt the Harrapans were chanting Pak sar Zameen..
Admin note: Watch your tone and your language. Desist from tropes.
So what happens here XTM, am I allowed to mock this muppet or not?
Champion cannot understand any of this because he does not know why the Vedas do not collapse in a heap of Chinese whispers remaining immutable over centuries despite not being written down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_chant
Now try not to burst into flames crying ‘shirk shirk’ on reading the article.
PIE is a reconstructed language. The dating of which is done based on timed language drift. When Sanskrit freezes in time, due to the unique attributes of Vedic chanting, dating based on it is subject to speculation.
What we are left with is dating via geography and climate – This dates the Rig Veda prior to steppe incursion i.e pre 5000 years. Also proves Aryans were in India pre 2200 BCE, the Rakhagiri DNA has no steppe element.
Saraswati cannot be in Afghanistan as Ganga Yamuna Saraswati are in the vicinity of each other (Something the Ghaggar Hakra is).
At this point I am just repeating myself. Going to end it here.
Writing an article on the Y-chormosome explanation, it will be out in a few days.
LOL no scholar worth his salt dates Rig Veda 5000 years or more.
RigVeda mentions spoked wheel which was invented by Sintastha (literally look up the archeaological evidence) so it is dated around 1500 BCE at max when the Sintastha moved into North Punjab/AfPak
>Saraswati cannot be in Afghanistan
It literally is. It’s cognate Haxarvati exists in Avestas referring to a river in Afghanistan.
😂😂😂😂
imaṃ me gaṅge yamune sarasvati śutudri stomaṃ sacatā paruṣṇyā |
asiknyā marudvṛdhe vitastayārjīkīye śṛṇuhyā suṣomayā ||
Ganga, Yamuna, Saraswati , Shutudri(sutlej), Asikni(Chenab), Marudvridha, Vitasta(Jhelum).
All rivers in vicinity of each other, in geographical order. And you want to claim this culture as yours, without understanding, rejecting, demeaning, and perpetually attacking it.
I need not suggest where that Afghani cognate belongs, your febrile imagination will do.
This is from 10th Mandala which is composed 300 to 600 years after Mandalas 2 to 9.. after the Aryans have been in South Asia for 600-800 years at this point. You talk about time lines but you have no idea about timelines. There is no real proof of any corresponding Sarasvati river in India here as described in RigVeda. The Sarasvati river is a river in Afghanistan, it is literally documented in the Avesta as well as such with the same cognate Haxarvati. The funny thing is that you never even explain why the Avesta has it.
The Avesta and Rig Veda are done by different branches of Aryan people. This supports my claim much more because Iranians have very residual steppe DNA and are 80-90% Zagros neolithic farmer, the same as IVC (actual Aryan people).
Your dating of the Rig Veda is bogus. Why would they randomly invent a river in the middle 800 years later.
No one thinks Saraswati is in Afghanistan, the geographical order of the rivers is very clear, the vanishing of the river is clear and the position of Ghaggar Hakra matches.
Now wait for my article, or go write your own. Not responding further.
Correct, and they descend from an Indo Iranian group in the Steppe with a shared common ancestor. (This is now proven by DNA) and shared common culture. Sometime later these two cultures may have clashed for them to treat each other’s gods as demons, like neighbours often do, but it is very clear that they descend from the same line.
Wrong, because you are talking about modern Iran. You forgot about the Farsiwaans in Khorasan (Tajiks) who can have upto 45% Steppe ancestry which is the highest in the region. They also have little to no IVC. The Avesta was composed in this region.
Avesta describes it as both a land rich of rivers or a river (identified as a tributary to the Helmand). This is not unusual, as Mandala 1 of Rigveda also describes Sarasvati as a goddess not a river. So is it a goddess or a river? I am not going to get into Vedic theology, religious texts are often contradictory especially when they are composed over centuries and by different people. But this just shows evolving conception of dieties in a culture.
Just to be clear, it took 1 day to violate the online safety protocol by jumping into my conversation with Q.
What happens here? Do we pretend that I am not involved in this conversation? Do we spend the next few days arguing over who is violating or not violating.
Objection sustained – the comment, while not offending, has been removed.
Also how about you attach references to your bogus claims the next time.
In the Avesta’s geography: Haraxvaiti is explicitly a land/country (the tenth beautiful land created by Ahura Mazda).
Not a river.
Admin note: Write a counter view if you think a viewpoint needs rebuttal. Any further such comments will be summarily deleted. They do not add to the conversation.
Doesn’t matter, their direct descendants get to claim them first.
You will cease and desist from making a mockery of the site. I will have no choice but to edit any tropes.
Projection is the most common Pakistani trait.
this is a trope. desist
Admin note: Any more comments like this are going straight to trash.
These Hindu right wing people can’t deal with facts.
Haha, couldn’t help yourself jumping into a thread. Ready for another smacking? I promised N and so, going to just let you off with a warning.
Just try it.
Kabir you don’t win debates in a civilized country with “auqaat” I guess all that American Education has gone to waste on a Pakistani mind.
Since you are not a citizen of a civilized country, sit down and shut up.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DcicD87oSYz/
I don’t click on random links.
That’s ok, the joke is on you, not for you.
You are a joke.
Thank you.
This hindu-hating bigot can’t help himself.
some questions :
1) Aryans being alpha males, apparently did not bring their females. Did these “he -men” leave behind their daughters, wives ,sisters, mothers permanently behind, in pursuit of some greater glory. Looks improbable, unless they were lootera, and had plans of going back.
As a comparison, a larger and more organised Muslim invasions did not increase the Muslim populations of today’s Pakistan and northern india only by rape. It was forced conversions.
2) did the political and religious elite here, without a fight gave all they had for a “vedic religion”??
3) I chant parts of rigveda every day. let me tell you, that this is not a creation of some nomadic tribe etc. The language and imagery is very complex.
4) this is to Indian readers- after hearing these kinds of accusations day after day, some young “upper caste ” guys have owned up and taunt others that they are oppressors and that they defeated the so called mulanivasis.!!!
Aryans, Muslims & Mongols probably had multiple wives.
For instance the Qajars of Iran had so many children that it wasn’t a big deal to be descended from a male line Qajar but it was a very big deal to descend from a female line Qajar.
Islam, pre-Roman Judaism, Hinduism all traced ancestry via the father.
Why did Aryans migrate? What did they do here, which could not have been done there?.
Apart from zoarastrian faith, which is a mirror image of vedic faith, there is no literature in the steppe of vedic religion as was practiced in India.
1) They did bring their females, and some areas of northern Pakistan are more equitable between male and female ancestry and shows females even mixing with others. However genetic data shows that in many other regions, it was ydna that passed on. This is very similar to the Yamnaya “invasion” wiping out a huge chunk of European male farmer population 1500 years before that.
We don’t know which was the larger and more organized force.
Also, the Turks were uninterested in forced conversions, this is just a myth otherwise India would not have any Hindus left today. The Mughals actually stopped conversion to Islam in places like Bengal. The Turks also did not leave much of a genetic impact on South Asia, the Aryans did.
Apparently so. It is very likely that the IVC had already declined and populations got more ruralized, and the elite was disbanded. This could have provided a ripe environment for foreigners to take over.
Who said they were nomads? They had settlements and they were expert metallurgists and lived in permenant settlements.
The Rors of Haryana are the most Aryan people in the Subcontinent even mores than the Pashtuns?
Unlike the West, in the East and South East Asia as far as public health studies are concerned Indian, Chinese, Malay are indeed characterized as races. In the West, these would be classified as Asian, thereby missing the nuances between them.
The West has always defined what ought to classified as anything. Including a lot of the cut-offs of any biological parameters such as BP, diabetes etc. All were based on the Caucasian population.
+1