To Karan

You seem to be seeking an answer that the IP (a proxy for IVC) killed all the AASI males and took the AASI females. Spencer Wells in his book, you say, has said this. I am saying that a proposal like that would like careful look at the phylogeny of the Y-DNA and cannot be made based on statements that there was less M-130 than AASUI mtDNA.

The reason is not hard to see , Narasimhan “The Indus periphery-related people are the single most important source of ancestry in India.” If the population of IP (which itself is a Iranian farmer-AASI blend) relocating to south and forming IP-AASI admixture, the resulting yDNAs and mtDNA in admixed populations will not be easy to determine. This can be thought (OK very crudely) as an inverse of Razib’s problem of determining skin color and hair color haplos for admixtures where the carriers are small in number.

All I am doing is cautioning against simplistic arguments for complex problems because it is easy to do so), male mediated expansions need not mean kill all different men; even a small founder male-female population can relocate the equilibrium another way.

L-M130 the AASI y chromosome is only found in approximately 5% of south indian males. Whereas in contrast the female AASI mitochondrial DNA is widespread. This strongly suggests that the AASI males were outbred/exterminated by the new L-M20 migrants.

spencer wells has elaborated on this in his book.

td, we seriously need to touch base offline. Razib and Zach, please connect us.

I would love to copy you on e-mail treads with Nilesh.

He is brilliant. I love him. Knows 10 X more than me. Sharp scientific evidence based mind.

This said, the date is a bit far back. Which would further push back the dates of Illa/Buddha (Chandra Vamsha), Ramayana, Parashurama, Vedic period. I would love to see more evidence. I am slightly skeptical it could be “THAT FAR BACK”.

Is the “Vedic period” spoken about by Indologists analogous to early Tretha Yuga? I don’t know.

I believe that the most likely explanation is that there was a pre flood Arya civilization. Hopefully the exploration of Gunung Padang might hold secrets of our past. Several parts of the giant Javanese pyramid have been carbon dated between 13 K and 28 K years ago. And many similar Javanese ancient structures have not yet been explored or carbon dated. [Massive lack of funding.]

Where does the 10 K BC great global flood fit into the narrative Yuga cycle histories?

Razib, more info on R1 and R please!

I have no idea if they are Chandra Vamsha or not. But this is like crazy interesting stuff.

To Razib dada :

“one thing that is clear though: the iranian farmers seem to been very east-shifted ” — So, a possibility of migration from Mehgarh region or a cline extending till the east ?

——–

To Vijay :

“I am not even sure that Aryan or Dravidan invasion happpend with any such violebce.” — Well, the IVC doesn’t show any archaeological evidences of invasion. So, no signs of IA invasion .

“The publications use the word tribal, but a more charitable interpretation would be backward classes and tribals.” — The publication use the word ‘tribal’ bacause the data was taken from a group listed as ‘tribe’. ‘Tribes’and ‘backward classes’ are actually two different constructs.(Even ‘tribes’ inhabiting the neighbouring areas can be different for eg how Todas are different compared to their other ‘tribal’ neighbours ). As for ‘backward’, few days ago, Marathas were declared backward and path for their reservations has just been laid lol.

——–

To AnAn :

“Where did R1 haploid admixture originate from and how many generations back” — I am nowhere an expert like Razib dada but it seems both Q and R split and differentiated in central asia around ~25-30 k years ago.

AnAn, what are your thoughts on Nilesh Nilkanth Oak’s date for the Mahabharata which he puts around ~5500 BCE ? Along with other sources, He cites a paper by Monika Karmin in 2015 which showed a strong bottleneck in Y-chromosome lineages around that time.

Milan Slapstik is a humble guy. And deeply knowledgeable about Sanskrit and Sanskrit literature. He is a big of a savant on linguistic [and basically everything in general] and can make his way around ancient Farsi and Avesta. Honestly, I am in awe of the guy.

I am not sure what Slapstic’s future plans are but it would be of wider benefit if he does some research related to Sanskrit, its history, origins, speakers, today’s situation, relationships with European languages. I already made my assertion and would be happy to assist him in his research related to modern Serbian language. It is not only my opinion, I already referred to Tagore’s granddaughter who studied Serbian (and other Slavic) languages for 30 years and found that 1/3 of modern Serbian and Sanskrit are identical or very similar. I can notice that some simply do not want to accept the fact of S-S similarity even they can see thousands of examples by themselves. Why those, who oppose this assertion, do not offer any explanation for this similarity and similarities with younger European languages (e.g. English/German, 800/600 years old).

One interesting thing for research would be to find out how old are family relationships terms in Sanskrit which are older than Vedas (especially specific, such as: husband’s brother’s wife’s or wife’s sister’s husband, husband’s mother, etc).

Aryans issue and Sanskrit are not my main field of research, I am neutral regarding any findings, but the fact is that we officially still don’t know if they actually existed at all, who were they and which language they spoke. The list of potential suspects is pretty short I almost cannot see more names than one only. SA people should be more interested because it is primarily their history but I can notice a strong psychological (and political?) resistance present at some individuals to make any step further.

Slapstic, if you are interested to do anything (professionally or for yourself) pls ask Razib for my email or I can provide it publicly.

“Mughalsarai was not named after Deen Dayal.”
I didn’t know Mughalsarai was being renamed.

Renaming so much stuff is a waste of time and energy and should generally stop. It also inconveniences the elderly, and people with limited health.

Mughalsarai was not named after Deen Dayal. This is a new trend.

Sorry, Modi’s India has deep issues with the Muslim period.

Kabir, the cities are formally being renamed what they are currently de jure called by locals, and what they have de jure been called by locals for a long time.

This said, we are agreed that it would be better if they were not renamed.

Jagguji, can you join a brown cast session?

:LOL:

Who would you like to have a discussion with and on what topic?

PS. I would love to hear a brown cast with Milan!