Have we seen the face of Rama?


One of the problems with looking up pictures of the Kalash people of Pakistan is that photographers have a bias toward highlighting the most European-looking villagers. Let’s call this “Rudyard Kipling Lost White Races” syndrome. Therefore for your edification, I post the YouTube above which is probably more representative of what the Kalash look like.

The reason I post a link to what the Kalash look like is that it is germane to the answer to the question: what did the Indo-Aryans look like? The past tense is key since “Indo-Aryans” today means a lot of people in South Asia, in a literal sense.

In the post below Zach L. made a passing comment:

(1.) The AASI’s, which are sort of co-equivalent to the Negritos and Anadamese Islanders (one of the first coastal waves out of Africa that somehow also ended up in the Amazon). It’s interesting that they are substrate to every South Asian population (I think there are trace amounts in Central Asia, Afghanistan and even Iran).

(2.) the “Dravidian” farmers out of Iran. They are probably related to the J1/J2 types and might be an olive skinned population. Prominent in Sindh and Southern Pakistan through to South India (high % in Gujarat – must have been a locus of some sort).

(3.) our beloved Aryans who are especially prevalent among Brahmins, the Punjab and Haryana (though arguably the Haryanvis and East Punjab descend from Scythians to some extent). These look “European” but it’s a very different look to #2.

The Aryans are conventional European (light eyes, light hair, white skin) the ancient Dravidians would have (probably) looked like Middle Easterners (olive skin, dark hair dark eyes) and the AASI, ” looks like Papua New Guineans.

I can’t see any disagreement with point number two.

As for the AASI (“Ancient Ancestral South Indians”), we need to be careful here. They diverged from the ancestors of the people of Papua New Guinea ~40-50 thousand years ago. The divergence from the Andamanese, who probably migrated from mainland Southeast Asia, was not too much later. Aside from being very dark-skinned, the various extant “Australasian” people can be quite distinctive in appearance. The people of Papua, and native Australians, are quite robust. A substantial minority have blonde hair color due to a mutation common among Oceanians. The “Negrito” people of Southeast Asia and India all seem to be have adapted to a narrow relic niche, and may not be representative of their ancestors.

That being said, there is a particular non-West Eurasian look that many South Asians have which we can presume is the heritage of the AASI.

The comment about Aryans looking like Europeans raised my eyebrows a bit. This is a touchy subject, and to be honest my initial reaction was to be skeptical. But the more I read the primary literature to check up on Zach, the more reasonable this seemed to be. The dominant steppe signal into South Asia does resemble the people who were pushing into Central and Western Europe 1,000 years earlier than the Indo-Aryans, who were moving southward probably ~3,500 years ago. This is clear in rather simple statistical genetic analyses-populations such as the Kalash and Pathans for example show strong evidence of “European-like” gene flow.

Current work out of David Reich’s lab suggests that the Kalash are the best modern proxies we have for the “Ancestral North Indians,” the ANI. This population is modeled as:

– ~30% “steppe”, which is very similar to the ancestry which expaned westward into Europe between 3000 and 2500 BCE
– ~70% “Indus Periphery”, which seems the likely ancestral contribution of the people of the IVC, and is a heterogenous mix of Iranian-farmer and AASI

The mid-range estimate for the emergence of the Kalash mix is ~2,500 years before the present, but these usually have some downward bias, so it is reasonable that it would be greater than ~3,000 years. The samples from the Swat Valley dating to this period show gradual increase of “steppe” ancestry over time.

So one reason to be skeptical that the Indo-Aryans were “European-like” in appearance is that by the time they were flourishing in the lands previous inhabited by the IVC they may already have been more than 50% genetically like the people of the IVC. In which case, a minority would be very European-looking, but most would look vaguely West Asia, with some looking more stereotypically South Asian. If you look at the video above I think you do see the Kalash look this way.

One reason I’ve always been skeptical of the idea that the Indo-Aryans looked European, or, that their demographic impact was large, is that it seemed unlike both could be true. The expression of blue eyes among Indians was too low of a percentage.

Here is the frequency at a major SNP which predicts a lot of the blue vs. brown eye color.

What you see here is that the Kalash have the derived (“light”) variant at 25-30%. Notice that some Northern European populations are >75%.

Here are the frequencies from the 1000 Genomes:

I was a little surprise of the lack of variation from Punjabis (PJL), to Gujaratis (GIH), and Bangladeshis (BEB). Using the above logic the ~10% result would imply that a bit more than 10% European-like Indo-Aryan ancestry. This is reasonable.

But there are more SNPs than that that impact pigmentation. SLC24A5 is derived and fixed in Europeans, but pretty high frequency in South Asians (I have two homozygote derived copies and I’m rather brown). But some SNPs in SNP SLC45A2 are much more European specific in derived allele frequencies. So the 1000 Genomes surprised me somewhat:

Here you notice that the derived variant is nearly fixed in Northern Europe.  But in South Asian populations it’s not as high as you would expect. The frequency of OCA2 derived variant is higher than SLC45A2 in South Asia, while in Northern Europe it’s the opposite.

One explanation could be in situ selection in Northern Europe or in South Asia (or Central Asia). So these two markers suggest to me we can’t draw a straight line between physical affinity and total genetic ancestry/affinity.

 

52 Replies to “Have we seen the face of Rama?”

  1. Just wanted to put a good word in for my Kalasha brethren – their language (which they call bAshA < Skt. bhASA) is arguably the most conservative of all Indo-Aryan dialects.

    Extremely atypical for the Dardic sub-group of NW IA prkRta-s they retain voiced aspiration! And betraying their bonafide IE antecedents (like Kashmiri) create affricate aspirates too (dzh, tsh). I think the baseline affricative (/ts/ < Old IA /c/, i.e. "ch" sound in "chin"), a transformation that Kashmiri and Marathi underwent too. But /dz/ was probably borrowed from Tibeto-Burman (cf. khang-chen-dzong, the Tibetan name of the 3rd highest Himalayan peak) where it is ubiquitous.

    Nonetheless creation of new aspiration even for borrowed phonemes is a smoking gun of Indo-European-ness. Aspiration is the IE superpower! And all uvular consonants in Kalasha are in (Turkic? or Arabic) loanwords. And they retain the entire Vedic retroflex series (with little modification)!

    The rAjataraGgiNI frequently calls the darada-s, wine-drinking mleccha-s who were a bad influence on the Kashmiri court and in some cases tried to usurp power too. However, I apologize to modern day darada-s for pitAmAh kalhaNa's remarks, for their speech is pitridhvanyUpamA, the best echo of our forefathers.

        1. We should probably do a podcast with you on South Asian linguistics – I would like Pakistan to introduce Sanskrit education upto university level.
          It would also be interesting what was the extent of Sanskrit; did it extend to Afghanistan.

          1. Yeah right. In India everyone wants their child to run English while the other person’s child to learn Sanskrit in the name of “we are forgetting our roots” BS.

          2. What is the compulsion for Pakistan to introduce Sanskrit? Every country should have the right to decide which parts of their heritage they are interested in. The Hindu past does not form part of the self-definition of Pakistani identity. Today’s students can’t be bothered to learn Arabic and Persian so Sanskrit would really be a stretch.

            Every individual has the right to learn whatever they want for their own reasons but there is no reason for the Pakistani State to encourage the study of a dead language that is deeply rooted in Hinduism.

          3. Thanks, but you should get a non-commentator to speak on the browncast.

            Sanskrit-speaking zone almost certainly existed until Kabul (kubhA) up to ~900 CE, i.e. until the Samanids & later Qarluq Turks started ghazi raids into S Asia.

            The 1005th anniversary of the fall of Hindu Shahis is on the coming Sunday (25th Nov).

          4. The country is called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The Buddhist past–just like the Hindu past– is not something that most Pakistanis are interested in.

            I don’t make education policy for the Pakistani government. But frankly, I don’t see the non-Muslim past as being a very high priority.

          5. “But frankly, I don’t see the non-Muslim past as being a very high priority.”

            Dont you think we should also expect that from India regarding its non-Hindu past. what’s fair for the goose is fair for the gander

          6. “Dont you think we should also expect that from India regarding its non-Hindu past” — But Saurav, India is a secular country . India has not declared herself as the Hindu Gantantra yet.

          7. But what has secularism got to do with it? Turkey is secular, dont think it acknowledges its Orthodox past. Doesn’t it depend on the people as to what they want to remember ? We hardly acknowledge our British past (apart from when we are trying to denigrate it) and have changed the names of most British places. In a curious way, Pakistan acknowledges its British past more than India does.

          8. India is free to deemphasize the Mughals, Urdu etc. And it is already doing so. Actively rewriting history is a different matter.

            In principle, it is up to any country to decide which aspects of its heritage it is interested in. As has already been pointed out, the Republic of India is a (theoretically) secular state. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a Muslim homeland.

          9. “The 1005th anniversary of the fall of Hindu Shahis is on the coming Sunday (25th Nov.”
            Did anybody or any body commomorate 1000th anniversary of the fall of HCs by lectures or exhibits or TV programme? I guess the date precision – if it is- comes from Rajatarangini.

        2. Mea culpa.
          Meant to ask how long you’ve spent studying Sanskrit till now. Also, any tips for beginners. Self-study vs finding a group etc.

          I’m trying to climb my way through ‘Sanskrit Swayam Shikshak’ of late but haven’t made a lot of progress. CBSE Sanskrit has mostly been forgotten by now.

          1. I had the benefit of a fantastic guru, whom I am forever indebted to.

            I never really stopped learning Sanskrit since I picked it up when I was 12 and I am 35 now. So many years of incremental study. Though I am still no where near the level of somebody like manasataraGgiNI on twitter.

          2. Hah. My mother sent me to our family priest to learn Sanskrit when I was 11 or 12. But I rebelled against the overtly religious content (and loss of play time).

            This time I hope I’ll persevere with it.

          3. My reasons for learning Sanskrit were more mundane. (Actually not quite mundane)

            My family had to re-settle in Maharashtra because we were rendered homeless after the “Migration”. And I took up Sanskrit to avoid Marathi in school; though I can read and understand Marathi too.

    1. Also, no mention of any light eyes, light hair features in the RgVeda, am i correct Slapstick ? The people pray for dark hair.

      “the “Dravidian” farmers out of Iran. They are probably related to the J1/J2 types and might be an olive skinned population.” — Razib, Zack , What about Y-HG L ? Do you think L dudes also arrived to IVC region from West Asia around 6-7 k years ago ?
      Razib, do you have info whether Todas have any Steppe_MLBA related ancestry ? It’s sad that the Narsimhans paper didn’t include them. They are a very interesting ethnic imo.

      1. manusmRiti, RV refer to kapila (cf. the sage – founder of saMkhya school of philosophy) meaning red/tawny-haired. Also, references to characters as haryakSa (green-eyed) in kAvya literature.

        Do people pray for it? Not that I know of.

        Indo-Aryan culture was far more obsessive about correct speech and customs in judging people than how they looked. Sometimes, looks of mleccha-s are commented on too (e.g. yavana-muNDAH, i.e. shaven-head Greeks etc) but mostly it’s their speech and their lack of correct etiquette. Very much like the Romans in that respect.

        1. “meaning red/tawny-haired” — Is that the only the meaning of the word kapila when it comes to RV ?

          “Do people pray for it? Not that I know of.” — This , i have been told by a person who has been studying the vedas . He said that the vedas know of dark pitch black hair and is prayed and longed for by women. The colored hair trait is mentioned in the later works as you wrote .

        2. Slapstik, there are many Kapilas. My guess is that they are regarded as reincarnations of each other?
          Some Kapilas are not human. For example the Vedic Kapila, the previous life of Buddha, the Kapila that meets Sagara’s 60K sons, But he might have taken birth as a homo sapien also. For example as the child of Bharadwaja. Unless Bharadwaja just introduced Kapila as his son–another common ancient practice.

          For people who are confused by this reference, “Bharat” is named after king “Bharata” of the Chandra Vamsha . . . ancestor to the Kauravas and Pandavas who fight the Kurukshetra war during the great Bharat or Maha Bharata.

          “Bharata” is one of the most impressive rulers of all time. Much of the world is described as being ruled by him. The Gods bowed before him. Bharata felt his children were not worthy of being emperor after him. So he appointed the sapta rishi saint Bharadwaja as his successor. Bharadwaja appointed Vitatha and Kapila.

          Is this the same Kapila reincarnated? Maybe?

          Kapila partly communicates though humans through the human brain and nervous system while humans are in deep meditation and Samadhi. My guess is that the method for this is similar to what modern neuroscience calls neuro-telepathy.

          For this reason, I doubt Kapila appears all that similar to the humans “he” (might not really have a gender) communicates with, unless Kapila chooses to appear very similar to a human.

          Many of the great saints are described as being different looking from normal people. Kapila included. Why is this?

      2. the L-M20 men genocided the AASI men (M130) and took their women.

        Razib, were the L-M20 men farmers as well? does this mean that there were two major waves of male farmer migrations into india? and that the J2 proto-?elamo-dravidian speakers conquered the L-M20/AASI hybrids and imparted their language at a later date?

        J2 is the modal haplotype among the Tamil vellalar caste in TN who are descended from the Dravidian Velir chiefs. They have maintained traditions in Old Tamil literature from 2000 years ago of being a ruling class that migrated from the North millenia ago.

        1. you tell me re: waves.

          genetics in other areas shows multiple migrations. see greece before mycenaneans.

          one thing that is clear though: the iranian farmers seem to been very east-shifted. before iran became more homogenizing 6-4 thousand years ago with anatolian/levant ancestry.

          (lazaridis et al. suggests that the west-east farmer divide has mostly to do with a very early wave of gene flow from north eurasians)

        2. I think this is all too graphic with no evidence, where we are extrapolating ideas from Steppe-MLBA spread to Dravidian. I am not even sure that Aryan or Dravidan invasion happpend with any such violebce.

          First, not only Y-Dna but mtdna also relocated from Iran; that is the nature of farmer expansion.
          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25832481; and https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326540178_Neolithic_phylogenetic_continuity_inferred_from_complete_mitochondrial_DNA_sequences_in_a_tribal_population_of_Southern_India
          suggest mtdna spread from Iranian plateau to Indian. The publications use the word tribal, but a more charitable interpretation would be backward classes and tribals.

          Regarding L ydna from Iran:
          Sengupta (2006) and Wells (2001) are responsible for mapping L-M20 in Indian Dravidan population (but not found in tribes)

          L-M20 is strong in Dravidian castes (17-19%) but rarer in Indo-Aryan castes (ca. 5-6%)
          reaches up to 68% in some tribes and castes of Karnataka
          38% in some castes in Gujarat
          48% in some castes in Tamil Nadu
          rare among tribal groups (ca. 5,6-7%)
          68% in the Korova tribe from Karnataka,
          38% in the Bharwad caste from Junagarh district
          21% in Charan caste from Junagarh district in Gujarat
          17% in the Kare Vokkal tribe from Uttara Kannada in Karnataka.(Shah 2011) the single largest male lineage (36.8%) among the Jat people of Northern India and is found at 16.33% among the Gujar’s
          It also occurs at 18.6% among the Konkanastha Brahmins of the Konkan region and at 15% among the Maratha’s of Maharashtra.
          found at 32.35% in the Vokkaligas and at 17.82% in the Lingayats of Karnataka.
          found at 20.7% among the Ambalakarar, 16.7% among the Iyengar and 17.2% among the Iyer castes of Tamil Nadu

          The point in typing all this is to note that this is not a Dravidian-only yDna but represents all InPE people. Given that InPE people dominate both ANI and ASI, this is not surprising.

          At this point, there is lack of clarity whether L originated from Iran or Caucasus, bu definitely not from Elam. The Elamite proto-dravidan is a language hypothesis, not a genetic origin model.

          I generally do not believe coalescence age model, but J1/J2 is an ancient Y-DNA between 27 K to 45 K and from Anatolia or Caucausus. Atttaching a Iran origin to this yDNA origin is weak. However, this is not intended to say that the INPE originated from Iran carrying J1/J2 and moved to Mehrgarh an dthen to IVC between 9000 and 5000 BP. Once again, the idea of violent Dravidans murdering AASI men and taking AASI women is unproven. Framers spread is different from Steppe Pastoralist spread. I do not even have evidence that ANI came to India that way because the Aryan invasion is viewed increasingly as INPE-Steppe_MBLA into India about 3500 years ago.

          1. the only Y that has a star-phylogeny in south asia is r1a i think. that’s the one that is probably associated with coercive spread.

            and it’s found everywhere

          2. Razib, Vijay, geneticists et all:

            Where did R1 haploid admixture originate from and how many generations back?

            Where did R haploid admixture originate from and how many generations back?

          3. To Razib dada :

            “one thing that is clear though: the iranian farmers seem to been very east-shifted ” — So, a possibility of migration from Mehgarh region or a cline extending till the east ?

            ——–

            To Vijay :

            “I am not even sure that Aryan or Dravidan invasion happpend with any such violebce.” — Well, the IVC doesn’t show any archaeological evidences of invasion. So, no signs of IA invasion .

            “The publications use the word tribal, but a more charitable interpretation would be backward classes and tribals.” — The publication use the word ‘tribal’ bacause the data was taken from a group listed as ‘tribe’. ‘Tribes’and ‘backward classes’ are actually two different constructs.(Even ‘tribes’ inhabiting the neighbouring areas can be different for eg how Todas are different compared to their other ‘tribal’ neighbours ). As for ‘backward’, few days ago, Marathas were declared backward and path for their reservations has just been laid lol.

            ——–

            To AnAn :

            “Where did R1 haploid admixture originate from and how many generations back” — I am nowhere an expert like Razib dada but it seems both Q and R split and differentiated in central asia around ~25-30 k years ago.

            AnAn, what are your thoughts on Nilesh Nilkanth Oak’s date for the Mahabharata which he puts around ~5500 BCE ? Along with other sources, He cites a paper by Monika Karmin in 2015 which showed a strong bottleneck in Y-chromosome lineages around that time.

          4. td, we seriously need to touch base offline. Razib and Zach, please connect us.

            I would love to copy you on e-mail treads with Nilesh.

            He is brilliant. I love him. Knows 10 X more than me. Sharp scientific evidence based mind.

            This said, the date is a bit far back. Which would further push back the dates of Illa/Buddha (Chandra Vamsha), Ramayana, Parashurama, Vedic period. I would love to see more evidence. I am slightly skeptical it could be “THAT FAR BACK”.

            Is the “Vedic period” spoken about by Indologists analogous to early Tretha Yuga? I don’t know.

            I believe that the most likely explanation is that there was a pre flood Arya civilization. Hopefully the exploration of Gunung Padang might hold secrets of our past. Several parts of the giant Javanese pyramid have been carbon dated between 13 K and 28 K years ago. And many similar Javanese ancient structures have not yet been explored or carbon dated. [Massive lack of funding.]

            Where does the 10 K BC great global flood fit into the narrative Yuga cycle histories?

            Razib, more info on R1 and R please!

            I have no idea if they are Chandra Vamsha or not. But this is like crazy interesting stuff.

          5. L-M130 the AASI y chromosome is only found in approximately 5% of south indian males. Whereas in contrast the female AASI mitochondrial DNA is widespread. This strongly suggests that the AASI males were outbred/exterminated by the new L-M20 migrants.

            spencer wells has elaborated on this in his book.

          6. To Karan

            You seem to be seeking an answer that the IP (a proxy for IVC) killed all the AASI males and took the AASI females. Spencer Wells in his book, you say, has said this. I am saying that a proposal like that would like careful look at the phylogeny of the Y-DNA and cannot be made based on statements that there was less M-130 than AASUI mtDNA.

            The reason is not hard to see , Narasimhan “The Indus periphery-related people are the single most important source of ancestry in India.” If the population of IP (which itself is a Iranian farmer-AASI blend) relocating to south and forming IP-AASI admixture, the resulting yDNAs and mtDNA in admixed populations will not be easy to determine. This can be thought (OK very crudely) as an inverse of Razib’s problem of determining skin color and hair color haplos for admixtures where the carriers are small in number.

            All I am doing is cautioning against simplistic arguments for complex problems because it is easy to do so), male mediated expansions need not mean kill all different men; even a small founder male-female population can relocate the equilibrium another way.

  2. For anyone:
    Who are Indo-Aryans? Who are Aryans?
    Where they originated and where they moved?
    Which language they spoke?
    Which genes they had and what is their age?
    Who are ‘steppe’ people? What is their language?
    Who are farmers and which language they spoke?
    Who are Indo-Europeans? In the literature there are 25 their homelands (7 in Asia, 18 in Europe). For 200 years Indo-European languages were studied more intensively than any other language but experts have not been able yet to determine the time and place of Indo-European origin.
    Whose mother tongue is Sanskrit?
    Etc, etc…

  3. I probably am an odd one, but I am not at all interested in my ancestry, color, genetics etc(except for health).

    Would be happy to know, whats the % of people actually interested in this(ancestry,color). How does this vary?, where is this interest more?.

  4. One thing that I’m not sure of, is that why should it necessarily be that the steppe signal has to correlate with some stabilized modern European phenotype. It is clear from cheddar man and the general WHG phenotype that the selected swing in phenotype in west Eurasia is far more rapid and recent. Steppe could have come in but they might have looked round faced dark skinned 6kybp in central Asia. As it is we accept that the Mongoloid phenotype is a later intrusion to the area. Why would it be difficult to accept that a stabilized Europoid phenotype might also be a later intrusion and that Indians are rather a very old repository?

    Some of these constructs seem highly steeped in ideas like following from 19th century called the Degenerative hypothesis
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degeneration_theory
    Basically that all populations of this planet descend from Caucasoid ancestry and various populations have degrees of separation from that due to environmental factors like diet/climate etc. This kind of theory holds a lot of sway in subcontinent in general.

  5. My impression was that the Yamnaya people had dark hair, dark eyes, and light skin (but not as pale as modern Europeans). Is that incorrect, or was there admixture into Indo-Aryan populations which introduced light eyes/hair before migration to South Asia?


  6. Zack Zavidé says:
    November 20, 2018 at 10:01 am
    We should probably do a podcast with you on South Asian linguistics – I would like Pakistan to introduce Sanskrit education upto university level.
    It would also be interesting what was the extent of Sanskrit; did it extend to Afghanistan.

    My guess is that many languages, including Sanskrit and Pali co-existed in Turan, Afghanistan and Sistan and Baluchestan Province Iran (Sakas) before the Islamist Jihadi invasion.

    Using relatively modern sources, we can read about the armies Darius and Xerxes brought to fight in Greece. My view is that the Persians brought over 300,000 troops during each invasion. Many of these troops were Indian. [I would suggest that readers study Darius’s invasion of many different nations in India.]

    More recently, Alexander fought three major battles with the Persian Army. The last of which was:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaugamela
    Half or more of the Persian army might have been Indian.
    “According to Arrian, Darius’ force numbered 40,000 cavalry and 1,000,000 infantry,[29] Diodorus Siculus put it at 200,000 cavalry and 800,000 infantry,[30] Plutarch put it at 1,000,000 troops”
    Today we discount these ancient estimates as fantastic. But my own view is that ancient populations and GDP were much higher than current estimates. [I think populations might have been stable or shrunk during many centuries.] Perhaps ancient sources on the size of the Persian Army are closer to true than today’s historians imagine possible.

    By then I imagine that Sistan (ancient Sakas) were no longer considered Indians, although I might be wrong. Indians probably referred to what today is called Afghanistan, areas north of Afghanistan, and Baluchistan. These would be the historic areas were Sanskrit flourished alongside other Pali, Pharsi, Avesta and other ancient languages.

    I could write a 50 page paper about this battle, one I have long been fascinated by. But let me summarize by saying this . . . after Darius III and his cavalry were smacked by Alexander’s cavalry, Darius III fled. Alexander wanted to capture Darius III, but Alexander’s men would not let him. See, the Indians didn’t know that their side had lost and were on the brink of killing the remnants of Alexander’s infantry (this was happening far from where Alexander and Darius III were). Alexander was forced to let Darius III flee. Alexander then faced one of the toughest battles of his life. He had to fight his way through yet another Indian army (that had their own cavalry) that was between him and the infantry battle. Somehow Alexander (and his cavalry) broke his way through and was able to save his infantry.

    The Persian empire and Persian army were akin to the modern NATO alliance or UN. A plural loose confederacy of many different nations and many different national armies. Each had their own methods and practices of military operations. There were many different Indian nations and Indian armies inside the Persian empire and army.

    The Persians also loved and celebrated diversity, pluralism, free art, free thought and religious freedom. This was a pan Arya phenomenon. I suspect that this extraordinary linguistic, cultural, civilizational and religious diversity extended throughout Arya Varsha (Persian empire, Turin, Afghanistan, Tibet, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Indonesia, Bali, Singapore, Malaysia, Myamnar, Sri Lanka, Vietnam).

    [At that time most of Vietnam was ruled by Hindu Cambodians. Modern ethnic Vietnamese probably moved to Vietnam from modern China circa 4 centuries ago.]

  7. “Saurav says:
    November 20, 2018 at 5:14 pm
    But what has secularism got to do with it? Turkey is secular, dont think it acknowledges its Orthodox past. Doesn’t it depend on the people as to what they want to remember ? We hardly acknowledge our British past (apart from when we are trying to denigrate it) and have changed the names of most British places. In a curious way, Pakistan acknowledges its British past more than India does.”

    My observation is that Turkey and Iran take great pride in their ancient history, Iran in Arya culture. Turkey in pre Islamic Turkic and Mongol culture. Afghans also takes pride in their ancient history. Pakistan is unusual in having no interest in her pre Mongol history.

    For the record, Indians continue to remember and take pride in their British and Mongol past.

    The Indian army remembers her victories as the British Indian army in WWI and WWII with great pride. The British Indian army won two world wars and made world freedom possible. The British Indian army defeated the Asura Hitler (who tried to use ancient Arya and Sanathana Dharma and dark Tantra technologies for dark purposes) and the Buddhist [Hindu] Tojo (who also tried to use Buddhism for dark purposes).

    The BJP, RSS, Hinduttva forces love Dara Shikoh and Jahanara Begum and take great pride in Bharat’s Sufi lineages. I imagine this is also true for people such as Yogi Adityanath.

    Of course they are not Aurangzeb fans. But seriously, doesn’t every reader of Brown Pundits think it would have been better if Dara Shikoh and Jahanara defeated Aurangzeb?

    1. No, because I dont think its about Aurangzeb alone. He came and went away. Ideas are the issue. And I dont believe in rss/bjp in being either good or bad, I dont trust them because they dont stand up for their own supporters.A bunch that leaves out its own people and uses and dumps them as they see fit cannot be trusted. Such greed and lust for power cannot be trusted.

      1. Yeah right , as if the older hindu right did a superb job of standing up for their own supporters. Read a bit when the RSS/BJP was gaining ground ,the so called intellectual/cultural right used to actively dissociate with them and used to call them all sort of names. Even today they know that the only reason anyone want to even remotely associate with them is due to political power they have. Something which they have created for themselves against a hostile eco system from day 1. And their success/failures are totally their own creation. They have every right to use or dump because its their hard work. Why would they share the spoils with the so called intellectual/cultural right when the only thing they have done in the last 70 years is hobnob with the Nehruvian elite. The RSS is hardly in the south , East. Where is this supposed cultural/intellectual Right there?

        1. Smashed, traditionally, it was education/temples that kept them employed, those have been cut down. Rss/bjp are beneficiaries of that policy of congress. I do fear them because elements of fascism in them are true. Do they believe in dharma is the only question I have for them.
          They prey on Hindu anxiety for their victory. It is not good.

        1. Kabir, the cities are formally being renamed what they are currently de jure called by locals, and what they have de jure been called by locals for a long time.

          This said, we are agreed that it would be better if they were not renamed.

          1. Mughalsarai was not named after Deen Dayal. This is a new trend.

            Sorry, Modi’s India has deep issues with the Muslim period.

          2. “Mughalsarai was not named after Deen Dayal.”
            I didn’t know Mughalsarai was being renamed.

            Renaming so much stuff is a waste of time and energy and should generally stop. It also inconveniences the elderly, and people with limited health.

  8. I’d like to see an episode where Slapstik and Milan debate the finer points of Serbo-Aryan linguistics.

    1. Hv u considered the poss that maybe milan = slappy? Both always talk aryan shit.

      and anan = barki, or if not the same then maybe partners. Discussions r so charged. Bring their domestics online.

      also vijay = vijayvan
      saurav = bharat
      jaggu = sbarrkum?

      Basically bp is all of 5 nutters bored of life talking shit in aliases.

    2. Jagguji, can you join a brown cast session?

      :LOL:

      Who would you like to have a discussion with and on what topic?

      PS. I would love to hear a brown cast with Milan!

  9. I read previous comments (no one is answering my questions but it is ok). I was impressed with yesterday’s discovery that Slapstic is almost an expert in Sanskrit. I will ignore continuous malicious, counter-productive comments and even humorous comments (Jagguistan). He is free to call ‘aryans shit’ but the fact is that 200 years of discussions and all Harvard, Oxbridge papers go nowhere and can continue another 200 without any results. He is not aware that (as one geneticist said) that he is possible one Aryan byproduct himself.

    I am not sure what Slapstic’s future plans are but it would be of wider benefit if he does some research related to Sanskrit, its history, origins, speakers, today’s situation, relationships with European languages. I already made my assertion and would be happy to assist him in his research related to modern Serbian language. It is not only my opinion, I already referred to Tagore’s granddaughter who studied Serbian (and other Slavic) languages for 30 years and found that 1/3 of modern Serbian and Sanskrit are identical or very similar. I can notice that some simply do not want to accept the fact of S-S similarity even they can see thousands of examples by themselves. Why those, who oppose this assertion, do not offer any explanation for this similarity and similarities with younger European languages (e.g. English/German, 800/600 years old).

    One interesting thing for research would be to find out how old are family relationships terms in Sanskrit which are older than Vedas (especially specific, such as: husband’s brother’s wife’s or wife’s sister’s husband, husband’s mother, etc).

    Aryans issue and Sanskrit are not my main field of research, I am neutral regarding any findings, but the fact is that we officially still don’t know if they actually existed at all, who were they and which language they spoke. The list of potential suspects is pretty short I almost cannot see more names than one only. SA people should be more interested because it is primarily their history but I can notice a strong psychological (and political?) resistance present at some individuals to make any step further.

    Slapstic, if you are interested to do anything (professionally or for yourself) pls ask Razib for my email or I can provide it publicly.

    1. Milan Slapstik is a humble guy. And deeply knowledgeable about Sanskrit and Sanskrit literature. He is a big of a savant on linguistic [and basically everything in general] and can make his way around ancient Farsi and Avesta. Honestly, I am in awe of the guy.

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