there has been a lot of stuff thrown around back and forth on these jat threads. this post didn’t get the comments that JR probably would have wanted.

i think that discussion is basically played out, so let’s just let all this drop at this point.

your comment was quite rude, and i think paindu was misconstrued by another commentator as well. no idea why he received this rxns. so i feel bad about this.

in any case, i’m going to just close this thread even though it’s not my post. i don’t think these are comments JR would want to see.

I respect ur decision. This was indded way too personal.

first, again, work on the length of your comments. a lot of time i don’t bother to read them cuz they are so long

Thank you for your reply. A better rebuttal would be to point out what the exact percentage of Steppe ancestry in Bronze age was. As I am not an expert in genetics like you, I would have believed you. Moreover, I always point out my sources, and I would love to be corrected: I have an open mind, and I like to learn. I did not write the previous post to lie; later in this post, I will present evidence about the genetic claims that I made.

looking at my own estimates (which use the same groups as narasimhan et al) a range btwn 5% (south indian non-brahmins like reddys) and 30% is reasonable. closer to 30% in pakistan (punjab) drops off to 15% in bihar.

this is lower than europe, but in the range of peninsular southern europe. also, the 70% value works when you restrict to parts of western europe, and also means corded ware rather than yamna, as corded ware has ancestry from indigeous farmers.

instead of 10% vs 70% i think 15% vs 50% (or 35% for southern europe) is better.

your qualitative argument holds.

This is why Razib is the King and always will be. IQ >>> All else. You’re the boss Mr. Khan.

-Long time fan.

@Razib

No. I don’t have the time or energy. I’ll just elect to no longer post (this stuff is way too personal).

are you threatening a digital ‘counter-strike’ against our tiktok page???

@Razib
Thank you for your reply. A better rebuttal would be to point out what the exact percentage of Steppe ancestry in Bronze age was. As I am not an expert in genetics like you, I would have believed you. Moreover, I always point out my sources, and I would love to be corrected: I have an open mind, and I like to learn. I did not write the previous post to lie; later in this post, I will present evidence about the genetic claims that I made.

Now coming to your review on the cream of civilizations part: I am well aware of Egyptians and Mesopotamians. They were also great; they too qualify, just like Harappans and Mayans, to be considered as one of the best ancient civilizations of all time. My reply in the previous post was in the context of Steppe, IVC people, and the cultural conundrums of the AMT theory.

With regards to Harappans and their position in the ancient world, they appear to follow the Hindu philosophy of “Vasudev Kutumbkam” or in Christian theological terms “Love thy neighbors” (amply visible from the emphasis on trading, governance, egalitarian ethos as seen from the buildings they created, etc.). They brought prosperity to other places too — as demonstrated from the trade and cultural exchanges of the ancient world. This makes them great, perhaps even the greatest according to me. This fact can equally be seen from the kind of architecture created by them: Harappan elites thought about the poorest rather than just aggrandizing benefits to themselves. As far as I know, they were unique in doing so. I would love to be corrected if I am wrong.

Moreover, Harappans do not appear to be warmongering, but were also not passive enough to be beaten so easily; otherwise, they would not have lasted for at least 2000 years. This is one of the points I wanted to make in my previous post.

To prove that I am not a liar, I will present to you the following facts that were listed by your friend on his webpage:

First Quote
“””
The Swat Valley samples are from 2 periods, the first one being around 1200-800 BCE and the second one around 500 BCE – 1 AD. The above Udegram_IA ones belong to the first period and are more or less in the average of the rest. Variation of steppe admixture between individuals is high, ranging between 0 and 20%. You can check a similar model for them here.

From the 41 samples from the first period, 21 of them yielded Y-DNA. None of them belongs to the steppe_MLBA marker R1a-Z93, and there is one R1b (but could be dubious given other R1b’s assigned in the supplements). From the later samples, 15, 6 of them yielded Y-DNA, and one of them does belong to R1a. On the mtDNA side there are more matches with steppe populations.

The burial site at Udegram from where the above samples come from is described is described in this paper³ by Massimo Vidale and Roberto Micheli. The majority of the burials had a primary and a secondary interment.
“””

Second Quote
“””
So where does this leaves us in terms of the steppe migration theory? The archaeology and the genetics tell us that this population from the Swat Valley didn’t descend from the steppe nomads. That part is clear. They do have some steppe admixture, but it’s not much (~12%?) and mostly (or totally) from the female side. Was it due to political marriages from the steppe people involved in trade in order to secure their business (marrying their daughters to locals looks like a safest way to avoid conflicts, robberies, etc… in the risky travel across the mountains passes)? Or was it something else?
“””

Third Quote
“””
The first important detail was already mentioned above: The Swat Valley samples from the Iron Age don’t have a single instance of R1a-Z93, and only one sample has it in the historical period. The paper mentions the R1a connection, but remains silent about the lack of R1a in the ancient samples.

The second important detail is that all the steppe samples belong to a subclade of Z93, that is, Z2124. We have lots of samples across space and time in the steppe, but not a single one with the sister clade L657 has been found so far. The latter is the most common clade in South Asia today. What this means is that L657 did probably arrive together with Z2124, but it was a very rare clade among the steppe populations. Its high incidence today in South Asia looks much more like local expansion of a rare but lucky lineage than a marker for any large migration, making the overall incidence of R1a in South Asia hardly relevant for historical purposes.

The marker that should be more directly linked to steppe migrations is clearly Z2124, which is not too high in South Asia (but it is high in Central Asia). Even then, the details of when and how it impacted those populations is unclear. Was it mostly during the Bronze Age or mostly during historical times? (And then there’s the founder effects in many populations, with Kyrgyz being a prime example).

You can check models with modern SC Asian populations here. The first sheet uses an AASI ghost, while the second one is the same but using Mala instead, for those who prefer avoiding a ghost (just keep in mind that Mala appears in the first sheet as 9.2% Sintashta_MLBA, so that should be accounted for on the second sheet somehow).
“””

So, no presence of R1a-Z93 in the Bronze Age. A lot of people, including you, have written that Y chromosomal lineage R1a1a-Z93 is the marker of Steppe migration. It appears only later. Steppe ancestry is correlated with R1a1a-Z93. No R1a1a-Z93 means 0 relevant Steppe ancestry till Iron age. Not even 10% seems to be correct. I wrote 10% because there was some Steppe derived ancestry from females, though not of the right kind.

Now if we disregard all this, please observe the female mediated invasion of India results in (~12%?) Steppe ancestry.

@Razib, if I am wrong anywhere I ask you to correct me. I don’t lie, and I give facts; I even cite my sources. It is not correct to call me a liar because of this. Also, I have an open mind towards AMT; I have no problem in believing it if facts turn out to be so. AMT is just filled with too many contradictions right now; it carries the baggage of lying, deceit, prejudices, and misrepresentations that are too hard to ignore — the same thing that you accuse me of even though I only try to be as accurate as possible. Hence, my lack of belief in AMT, until conclusive facts to the contrary are provided.

@Razib
This sets a precedent for future posts on the blog. Anything goes.

Young man is a little bit nervous? Let me guess why. Maybe we haven’t learnt anything new in last two days (we knew all this before) but it seems that OIT got caught off the guard and they have to confess that at least one group of Euro-trash ancient migrants came to SA. OIT position was unsustainable and only one small rock removed caused the whole construction to crash. I am sure that Talageri, as mathematician, can count the number of horse ribs. That was one of the key OIT supporting evidence (the other one is that all mouses have Indian genes, i.e. they followed rice, i.e. food, i.e. people, who went from Punjab and populated the whole world).

How otherwise to explain such outburst toward the oldest civilisation since the Ice Age, the oldest language with the oldest literacy which influenced all alphabets in the world, the oldest calendar (Y7528 and counting), first metallurgy, wheel, swastika, etc, etc. It is symbolic coincidence that OIT caved in on the birthday of one of the greatest (and tallest, 187) Ar1ans, Nikola Tesla, who changed the stream of human civilisation as their ancient ancestors did, too. Two magnificent exemplars from this civilisation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp-AW3BO-Cg

Instead of wasting your time on amateurish genetics, linguistics I would recommend the reading of the first Khanishka’s paragraph (the second paragraph, linking Minoans and Greeks, is wrong) and dedicate your research time on studying Mahabharata with a real possibility to become a worldwide expert in this. I can make a referral to A&A to accept you in their research team. To qualify for this, you should answer the question – what the meaning of the name ‘Asia’ is. This is one old BP award question which no one answered correctly although the award (a bottle of red) went to one Jat guy. No, no that one. Alternatively, you can answer the same question for Europe. Forget wiki, a tip is – in one period of time the name of Teheran was – Europe.

Well, I would expect from you to give the priority to answer this question (you can invite other pundits to help you) and not post any other comment in meantime.

To relax this atmosphere let all pundits in the house listen one Indo-Serbian OIT song (Sereno’s favourite). The invitation includes Pakistanis, too (taqiyamen, jihadists, cricketers and con-liberals) because the singer had (she passed away) a muslim name, as the majority of Indo-Serbians, and sings to her boyfriend Omer (also muslim name) who spends whole nights drinking (alcohol?) in the pub instead to be with her. I think that her phenotype will be satisfactory even for a choosy Jat, APthk. Well, we have it all in one – OIT Indo-Serbians, muslims and Jats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhPT7eIdRlY

Noted. I’m done. Sorry boss. Just had to reply to what was a poorly constructed argument.