The Jats and Indo-Aryan expansion in South Asia

There is this belief that is held by many that the high steppe ancestry in Jats is based somehow on some latter steppe migrations into the region. But obviously there is no proof for it.  The association of Jats with some Central Asian migrants and more specifically the Indo-Scythians is a myth created in the 19th century and does not have any foundation whatsoever. However some people hold onto this myth and feel a vague sense of pride in it.

Nevertheless, there is a very easy and straightforward explanation for why the Jats have such a high steppe ancestry.  Here are a few things to keep in mind.

  1. The Haryanvi and Western UP Jats have apparently the highest ‘steppe’ ancestry among South Asians.
  2. This ‘steppe’ ancestry is associated with the spread of IE langauges in South Asia with Brahmins and Kshatriyas in any region having a higher share of this ancestry than the other groups within that region.
  3. The Vedic homeland was in Haryana and Western UP, the Kuru heartland from where the Vedic cultural influence spread into interior South Asia.

Let me quote Michael Witzel which is an avowed AMT proponent,

Kuruksetra, the sacred land of Manu where even the gods perform their sacrifices, is the area between the two small rivers Sarsuti and Chautang, situated about a hundred miles north-west of Delhi. It is here that the Mahabharata battle took place. Why has Kuruksetra been regarded so highly ever since the early Vedic period?…

…It can be said that the Bharata/Kaurava/Pariks.ita dynasty of the Kurus sucessfully carried out and institutionalized a large scale re-organization of the old Rgvedic society. Many aspects of the new ritual, of the learned speech, of the texts and their formation reflect the wish of the royal Kuru lineage and their Brahmins to be more archaic than much of the texts and rites they inherited. In this fashion, the new Pariks.ita kings of the Kurus betray themselves as typical newcomers and upstarts who wanted to enhance their position in society through the well-known process of “Sanskritization.” In fact, to use this modern term out of its usual context, the establishment of  the Kuru realm was accompanied by the First Sanskritization. Incipient state formation can only be aided if it is not combined with the overthrow of all inherited institutions, rituals, customs, and beliefs. The process is much more successful if one rather tries to bend them to one’s goals or tries to introduce smaller or larger modifications resulting in a totally new set-up. The new orthopraxy (and its accompanying belief system, “Kuru orthodoxy”) quickly expanded all over Northern India, and subsequently, across the Vindhya, to South India and later to S.E. Asia, up to Bali.

This procedure is visible in the Bharata/Kaurava dynasty’s large scale collection of older and more recent religious texts: In all aspects of ritual, language and text collection, these texts tend to be more archaic than much of the inherited older texts and rites. On the other hand, the new dynasty was effective in re-shaping society and its structure by stratification into the four classes (varna), with an internal opposition between ¯arya and ´sudra which effectively camouflaged the really existing social conflict between brahma-ksatra and the rest, the vaisya and ´sudra; further, the Bharata/Pariksita dynasty was successful in reorganizing much of the traditional ritual and the texts concerned with it. (It must not be forgotten that public ritual included many of the functions of our modern administration, providing exchanges of goods, forging unity and underlining the power of the elite.)

The small tribal chieftainships of the R°gvedic period with their shifting alliances and their history of constant warfare, though often not more than cattle rustling expeditions, were united in the single “large chiefdom” of the Kuru realm. With some justification, we may now call the great chief (raja) of the Kurus “the Kuru king”. His power no longer depended simply on ritual relationships such as exchange of goods (vidatha) but on the extraction of tribute (bali) from an increasingly suppressed third estate (vi´s) and from dependent subtribes and weak neighbors; this was often camouflaged as ritual tribute, such as in the a´svamedha.

In view of the data presented in this paper, we are, I believe, entitled to call the Kuru realm the first state in India.

Witzel also states elsewhere in the text,

The famous Videgha Mathava legend of ´SB sqq. tells the story of the “civilization process of the East” in terms of its Brahmanical authors, and not, as usally termed, as the tale of “the Aryan move eastwards.For it is not only Videgha Mathava, a king living on the Sarasvatı, but also his priest Gotama Rahugana who move towards the east. Not only is the starting point of this “expedition” the holy land of Kuruksetra; the royal priest, Gotama Rahugana, is a well known poet of R°gvedic poems as well, and thus, completely anachronistic. Further, the story expressively mentions the role of Agni Vai´svanara, the ritual fire, in making the marshy country of the East arable and acceptable for Brahmins. All of this points to Sanskritization or rather, Brahmanization) and Ks.atriyazation rather than to military expansion.

The M¯athavas, about whom nothing is known outside the ´SB, may be identical with the m´athai of Megasthenes (c. 300 B.C.), who places them East of the Paz´alai (Pancala), at the confluence of the Erennesis (Son) with the Ganges. The movement of some clans, with their king Videgha and his Purohita, eastwards from the River Sarasvatı in Kuruksetra towards Bihar thus represents the ‘ritual occupation’ of Kosala(-Videha) by the bearers of orthoprax (and orthodox) Kuru culture, but it does not represent an account of the first settlement of the East by Indo-Aryan speaking tribes which must have taken place much earlier as the (still scanty) materials of archaeology indeed indicate.

According to Talageri,

…the geographical area of the Rigveda extends from westernmost U.P. and adjoining parts of Uttarakhand in the east to southern and eastern Afghanistan in the west. Strictly speaking, in present-day political-geographical terms, this includes the whole of northern Pakistan, adjoining areas of southern and eastern Afghanistan, but, within present-day India, only the state of Haryana with adjoining peripheral areas of western U.P and Uttarakhand..

…The descriptions in the Puranas about the locations of the Five Aila tribes in northern India clearly place the Purus as the inhabitants of the Central Area (Haryana and adjacent areas of western U.P.), the Anus to their North (Kashmir, etc.), the Druhyus to their West (present-day northern Pakistan), and the Yadus and Turvasus to their South-West (Rajasthan, Gujarat, western M.P.) and South-East (eastern M.P. and Chhattisgarh?) respectively. The Solar race of the Ikshvakus are placed to their East (eastern U.P, northern Bihar). This clearly shows that the Purus were the inhabitants of the core Rigvedic area of the Oldest Books (6, 3, 7): Haryana and adjacent areas, and they, and in particular their sub-tribe the Bharatas, were the “Vedic Aryans”. Their neighboring tribes and people in all directions were also other non-Vedic (i.e. non-Puru) but “Aryan” or Indo-European language speaking tribes. The Puru expansions described in the Puranas explain all the known historical phenomena associated with the “Aryans”: the expansion of Puru kingdoms eastwards explains the phenomenon which Western scholars interpreted as an “Aryan movement from west to east” (the area of the Rigveda extends eastwards to Haryana and westernmost U.P., the area of the Yajurveda covers the whole of U.P., and the area of the Atharvaveda extends eastwards up to Bengal), and their expansion westwards described in the Puranas and the Rigveda explains the migration of Indo-European language speakers from the Anu and Druhyu tribes (whose dialects later developed into the other 11 branches of Indo-European languages) from India..

The evidence is unequivocal. Quite clearly, the Vedic culture spread into the Gangetic plains and later on elsewhere from its central locus of the Kuru realm which was in Haryana and Western UP.

So is it so outrageous that the dominant community living presently in the traditional Vedic heartland from where the Vedic culture, ritual, language and religion is suppossed to have spread across inner South Asia, also has the highest ancestry of the type which is usually today associated with the spread of IE or Indo-Aryan languages and culture in South Asia ?

So why hold onto the unsubstantiated 19th century colonial myths when the evidence is so clear and straightforward ? As Razib has pointed out, a latter steppe admixture into the Jats from groups like Scythians is also difficult to argue because the Jats lack the East Eurasian component which is present in very signficant proportion in steppe groups from Iron Age onwards.

Infact, the close ancestry sharing between the Kalash, Pashtuns, Pamiris and Jats indicates, as I have argued earlier in greater detail, that this shared ancestry with high ‘steppe’ component goes back to the days of Indo-Iranian unity within the northwest of the subcontinent because while Jats are Indo-Aryan and Pashtuns are Iranian speakers, the Kalash are representative of the Nuristani branch which is often taken as the 3rd branch in Indo-Iranian.

One question that is often asked is – why are Jats not at the top of caste heirarchy ?

There is also a good explanation for this. The Indo-Aryan expansion from its Haryana-Western UP heartland is a roughly 4,000 year phenomenon. A lot of water has flown under the bridge since then. Mahapadma Nanda, who established the first major South Asian empire is stated in the Puranas to have  destroyed the Kshatriyas, and attained undisputed sovereignty. The Kshatriyas said to have been exterminated by him include Maithalas, Kasheyas, Ikshvakus, Panchalas, Shurasenas, Kurus, Haihayas, Vitihotras, Kalingas, and Ashmakas.

As you can see, the Kshatriyas among the Kurus, along with those of other kingdoms, were already exterminated during the time of Mahapadma Nanda eons ago.  So it is no surprise that present day Jats don’t hold any special position in the caste heirarchy.

I end here by taking a detour with the beautiful story of Pururavas, who is the ancestral figure of all Vedic tribes and is most likely an Indo-Iranian ancestor from the remote past. Noticeable aspects of the story include the fact that the place of Kurukshetra, Haryana has a mention in the story as a place of action and that sheep herding appears to have been  a feature of this early nascent Indo-Aryan/Indo-Iranian period.

Pururava was a good king who performed many yajnas. He ruled the earth well. Urvashi was a beautiful apsara. Pururava met Urvashi and fell in love with her.

“Please marry me,” he requested.

“I will,” replied Urvashi, “But there is a condition. I love these two sheep and they will always have to stay by bedside. If I ever lose them, I will remain your wife no longer and will return to heaven. Moreover, I shall live only on clarified butter.”

Pururava agreed to these rather strange conditions and the two were married. They lived happily for sixty-four years.

But the gandharvas who were in heaven felt despondent. Heaven seemed to be a dismal place in Urvashi’s absence. They therefore hatched a conspiracy to get her back. On an appropriate occasion, a gandharva named Vishvavasu stole the two sheep. As soon as this happened, Urvashi vanished and returned to heaven.

Pururava pursued Vishvavasu and managed to retrieve the sheep, but by then, Urvashi ahd disappeared. The miserable king searched throughout the world for her. But in vain. Eventually, Pururava came across Urvashi near a pond in Kurukshetra.

“Why have you forsaken me?” asked Pururava. “You are my wife. Come and live with me.”

“I was your wife,” replied Urvashi. “I no longer am, since the condition was violated. However, I agree to spend a day with you.”

When one year had passed, Urvashi returned to Pururava and presented him with the son she had borne him. She spent a day with him and vanished again. This happened several times and, in this fashion, Urvashi bore Pururava six sons. They were named Ayu, Amavasu, Vishvayu, Shatayu, Gatayu and Dridayu.

83 thoughts on “The Jats and Indo-Aryan expansion in South Asia”

  1. The Purus are not related to Kurus in the sense that they are not contemporaneous. Witzel is talking about the Kurus during Mahabharata while Talageri is talking about Purus in the old books of the Rgveda.

    Witzel’s works are perfidy of the highest order – he always treats Greek sources like gold dust. Example – Megasthenes. There is no primary source available of any of his works. All are secondary, like Strabo and Pliny, all of whom diss him for inaccuracy and errors. The same Witzel, however casts doubt on every primary Indian source, if it does not meet his narrative.

    Witzel, for a brief period, was completely off the rails, when he bizarrely proposed along with Farmer and Sproat that IVC script did not encode language. Witzel is just unalloyed ivory tower nonsense sometimes!

    Subhash Kak is very specific that the Jats are migrants during the Saka era. They were already Sanskritized even before they arrived in India, worshipping Shiva. Herodotus called them as MassaGetae (MahaJaat), Ptolemy called them as Getae (Jat). In fact Toynbee proposes that Germanic Goths and Scandinavian Gauts are related to the Jats.

    1. Last paragraph – all true but the word ‘Germanic’ should be removed unless is used in its original meaning because this is a Serbian word. All mentioned tribes were Serbs.

  2. This is interesting.

    The geographic distribution of steppe ancestry among the Jats seems strange using the secondary migration narrative and we would have to accept it just coincidentally lines up with the centres of Vedic culture.

    I also agree with you regarding Vedic Kshatriyas having been destroyed etc.

    Vedic Brahmins could survive more intact because they brought with them a lot of secular knowledge on math, astronomy, medicine, alongside rituals as part of the Vedic Brahmin toolkit. They also posed no threat since were forbidden to rule as kings.

    (Early Buddhists are terrible in this regard and would give kings advice like renounce your kingdom and be a monk, later on they become a bit more pragmatic)

    That said I think the genetic evidence for a secondary migration should supersede if it’s strong.

  3. DaThang and Paindoo:

    Could you both summarize your view of Jats phenotype and genotype in layman’s terms? You both have Jat/Jatt background and also seem versed in genetics.

    We have heard APthk and his views seem a bit extreme – although his point about Jats having more Steppe, and hence distinctive appearance (on average) is true and not being contested. What is being challenged is the degree of difference between jats and others, and whether they are so different as to completely stand out in India + plus pass everywhere from Iran to Bulgaria. Also the BS about Khatris/Aroras/High caste Sindhis feeling out of place among Indian groups

    1. Not either of those guys, and I wouldn’t say I’m particularly versed in genetics either, but I am Jatt so I’ll answer for phenotype at least.

      No, I don’t think we particularly stand out from other NW Indians. Yes, there is a small difference on average maybe, but most of us are still clearly subcontinental.

      I do think he’s somewhat right about us being diverse and some potentially “passing” further West. I’d say I look pretty Punjabi, but my dad could easily pass as a swarthy Balkan/Mediterranean. Not sure if he’s Jatt, but the singer Mickey Singh is an example of someone who could definitely pass as Turkish or something. But those are outliers, and I also know another Jatt who gets confused for being South Indian.

      I think phenotypes overlap a lot more than people typically assume, and yes sometimes Jatts can overlap with various other groups, but on a whole we look like other NW Indians more than anything else.

      1. Are all jatts in the west into genetics?

        Where are our UP bhaiyas at? I want nay demand, our UP genetics guys find a direct linkage with Zeus

        1. Basically Indians aren’t a ‘cool’ nationality in the west. And things are more race driven.

          So 2nd gen people differentiate if they can, ie Punjabi Jatts do look different from UPites (who are the gold standard of Indianness it seems), and Gujaratis (since there are not that many UPites around)

          The really non-Indian ethnic groups I know like 2nd gen Hakka Chinese migrants make it a point to say there families are from India despite being ethnic Chinese. I think because it becomes a way for them to differentiate from mainland Chinese people, who are also not considered cool.

          Genetic differences are real, but identity is shaped by social incentives and interactions.

          1. “So 2nd gen people differentiate if they can, ie Punjabi Jatts do look different from UPites (who are the gold standard of Indianness it seems)”

            Is that even in question, bro? 😛

            “The really non-Indian ethnic groups I know like 2nd gen Hakka Chinese migrants make it a point to say there families are from India despite being ethnic Chinese”

            Wow, never knew that. Do ya know India internment ed Chinese origin folks, in 1962 war, similar to US did to Japanese american. I think there was a movie on it sometime back.

            It would have been funny had it not been tragic that they were interned after the war was over. And like our national culture the govt forgot abt them , and they were released 5-6 years , after someone petitioned the courts.

          2. Didn’t know that. But I have met a few who would randomly mention their family was from India etc.

            Also there are a couple of Hakka Chinese restaurants that are almost exclusively frequented by brown people.

          3. “Basically Indians aren’t a ‘cool’ nationality in the west. And things are more race driven.”

            How did things turn out this way? What determines whether a group is cool or not?

        2. Lol. No, I don’t personally know any others irl who are.

          There’s a tonne of Jatts in the west, that’s probably why (I guess a lot of coolies have ancestors from UP, but they’re more divorced from their Indian identity than us). That and all the speculation regarding our origins.

    2. @justanotherlurker
      Not sure what you are looking for specifically but imo, Hindu Jaats tend to look more phenotypically South Asian shifted on average than Jatt Sikhs (despite being more Steppe shifted and slightly less AASI on average).

      Jatt Sikhs look more or less look similar to other Punjabi biradaris such as Khatri/Aroras, Arains, Tarkhans, Rajput, Gujjar, etc. along with other NW South Asians (Sindhis, Jammuites, Haryanvis, western Himachal, etc.) There are subtle difference between each group though. For example, I think you can distinguish a Sikh Khatri/Arora from a Jatt Sikh on average.

      With regards to passing outside South Asia, there is a minority but notable percentage who can pass in places like Iran, Eastern Turkey, Arabia, etc. but you’ll find more that would pass in Afghanistan/South Central Asia (Pashtun/Northern Dards) before those West Asian countries. Perhaps, there are even a small minority who can pass ambiguously on the fringes of Europe (Cyprus/Island Greeks/Sicilian) but I think a lot of people’s perception changes just based on skintone (even if your facial features are normal for your group).

      I can’t speak for Khatris/Aroras/Hindu Sindhis but I think feeling “inclusive” in a group depends a lot on one’s own individual circumstances/experiences. For all I know, a Hindu Khatri/Arora might feel different than their Sikh Khatri/Arora counterparts.

      My own personal experiences have varied. I felt a bit out of place among the South Asians in my high school (but that’s because they were mostly South Indian Brahmins) but I’m sure I’d feel much more in common (after my own ethnoreligious group) with a Sindhi, non Sikh Punjabi or even a Pakistani.


      Micky Singh isn’t Jatt. AFAIK, he is a Sikh Labana. I wouldn’t consider him the typical/average Punjabi either but he’s also not the most atypical.

      1. If you don’t mind sharing, where did you go school that the majority where South Indian Brahmins? To my knowledge, we are only a few million in the whole world. I appreciate what you are willing to share.

        1. @Berossus
          I went to a private college prep high school in the Bay Area. There were other South Asians there too (such as a few Baniya, Gujaratis and some Hindu Punjabis) but the most cohesive and largest group on campus seemed to be South Indian Brahmins. I’ll note that I didn’t realize they were South Indian Brahmins until taking an interest in anthropology a few years after high school. From what I recollect, there was 2 other Sikh students at my school but one transferred to a public school and I had different interests than the other one.

          It’s worth noting that I also later learned that my private high school had a lot of feeder private middle schools where friend groups or cliques had already formed and carried on into high school. This was news to me since I had gone to public schools throughout elementary and middle school.

          1. Thank you Paindu. I was born in the Bay Area, but grew up in New Jersey. I don’t think there was any predominant group of South Asians where I grew up, though the milieu was more northern than southern. I appreciate your answering my question.

      2. @Paindu
        How about you just speak for your own group? You’re not a Hindu Jatt, nor have you even met many as you stated yourself, owing to the lack of them in the West. You also grew up in the States and haven’t been to Hindu Jatt areas in India. Are you now generalizing about Hindu Jat phenotypes in general based off a handful of Jats you have met in real life? I have actually met many Jatt Sikhs in the US owing to the fact there are tons of them here in the US/Canada. And from what I have seen there is no difference in phenotype between the two groups. If anything, Sikhs have a higher frequency of the “Pappu” phenotype IIRC, at least among the few I met in the DMV area. Maybe they were more mixed? Either way, such generalizations are impossible to make just based off personal experiences and anecdotes. We need a larger sample size to come to a definitive conclusion. Otherwise, all we can say is that Jats have a range of phenotypes from less ethnic to very ethnic, and though none look Indian, they all have a distinct appearance. The frequency of each phenotype/particular “looks” is up for debate and is going to be hard to ascertain, as most of us will have different experiences in our personal lives. This will just end up being one of those futile discussions where one person’s word stands against another and no conclusion will be reached. Its better to avoid talking about phenotype frequency, and just focus on phenotype diversity instead, something much more obvious at the outset. Please refrain from talking about a group you dont know anything about. I noticed you started off neutral in this discussion and only talked about Jatt Sikhs, and now you seem to be covertly veering off into Hindu Jatt territory and are giving out opinions like some authority. Please don’t engage in such stupidity. It wont fool me or other Hindu Jatts. Stay in your own lane.

        1. @Apthk
          In the future, feel free to refrain from speaking to me at all. I have nothing to say to you. I will make one point though. The vast majority and I mean 80%+ of Jatt Sikhs in the US live in California followed by NY. However, their numbers are still less than their numbers in Canada (Vancouver/GTA). There are some in the DMV area but we are not concentrated there in any significant amounts.

          I have friends from India that have grown up alongside Hindu Jaats. I’ve seen enough pictures through them in addition to the ones I have met personally (it’s certainly more than a handful). Feel free to believe Jatt Sikhs have more “pappu” types on average. It doesn’t bother me one way or the other.

          Oh by the way, you have the audacity to tell me not to speak about Hindu Jaats (as if you have some supreme authority in deciding who can comment on what) but speak so freely about Jatt Sikhs? You can piss off man.

          Also, I never spoke as an authority on anyone. I gave my opinion. I never declared it as authoritative.

          1. What are you even talking about my turbaned friend? No one was even talking about Jatt Sikhs until you chimed in and started giving out unsolicited opinions about Hindu Jatts and how Jatt Sikhs are different from them, according to your personal experiences.

            Also, you are calling me audacious when it was you who first told me to not speak for any Jatt Sikhs in your first few posts because I wasn’t one myself. At that point, I hadn’t even mentioned them. Its only when you started comparing them to Hindu Jatts that I added to your personal observations. Hypocritical much?

            You’ve been hostile from the beginning, constantly saying that I don’t/can’t hold opinions about Jatt Sikhs, and using other ad hominems all the while commenting on Hindu Jatts with disclaimers in some cases, and with no preface/caveats in others. Who is the real hypocrite here? I don’t even care about Jatt Sikhs, an oxymoronic term according to the principles of Sikhism. Feel free to believe whatever you want to believe about your Punjabiyat group, just don’t talk about Hindu Jatts like you know more about them than actual Hindu Jatts themselves. Like I said, no one here is being a supreme arbiter but you, and when someone points this out, you start telling them to piss off. I have no interest in speaking to you or your ilk, but I will intervene when you make observations about my own group based on anecdotal experiences and third party accounts/pictures. I have also seen plenty of pictures of Jatt Sikhs, yet you dont see me talking about them. Don’t make me open my mouth, stay in your own lane please.

          2. What’s the point in referencing a pointless physical moniker? Is that some lame attempt to mock me? Most Jatt Sikhs in the diaspora don’t wear turbans. Not that it matters either way.

            I am allowed to give out my opinion. It’s a blog. Everyone is entitled to their perspective. Also, I never told you to not speak for Jatt Sikhs. I said your opinion does not represent the opinion of Jatt Sikhs in the diaspora. Two clearly different trains of thought. Even my opinion is not authoritative for all Jatt Sikhs. I’m a single individual. My experience is my own.

            I haven’t been hostile whatsoever until you came after me. All I did was clarify to everyone on BP’s that I am Jatt with a very different perspective than you. It’s the same for DaThang. You want to talk about ad hominems? Maybe go re-read some of your own posts.

            Again, what’s the point in telling me that Jatt Sikh is an oxymoronic term? That’s clear as day to anyone. No sub-division should exist among Sikhs but here we are with all these Sikh biradari sub-groups. You previously suggested that Jatt Sikhs don’t differentiate from other Sikhs/Punjabis but then why does this term even exist? It’s contradictory to your point no?

            I think my interactions with you are enough to keep me away from BP’s for the rest of the summer and potentially even longer.

          3. Wow, this APthk person just came out with some real anti-Sikh stuff. What is the point of constantly saying “my turbaned friend” and all this “Gurpreet, Sukhdeep” stuff? Going after people’s religious identities is not acceptable. This person is a troll.

      3. Ah, I thought he might not be. Yeah, I agree there are more atypical looking Punjabis than him. And also agree with feeling somewhat out of place around South Indians lol.

  4. This article seems at first glance to promote the kind of science our Prime Minister preaches; Ganesh is proof that ancient Indians knew plastic surgery. They could reconstruct cut off noses, it is known, so they must have been able to do heads too.

  5. Do Begalis, esp more east asian looking ones, like Mamta Banerjee, feel out of place among indians who lack east asian ancestry ?

    1. Mamta Banerjee is a Kulin Brahmin. She’s more related to UP Brahmins than to us Bengalis. East Asian features are present even among Biharis and eastern UPites. Some people think AASI can produce pseudo mongoloid traits, dunno if that’s true.

          1. How can we escape Bengalis sir? They have been haranguing the rest of us Indians, for the last 70 years or so 😛

      1. My point is Bengali people seem to have just as much genetic claim to being non-south asians as jatts do (if not more). But seem to be ok with being considered South Asians / Indic people.

        Maybe I am wrong and just unaware of Bengali caste dynamics. Since I had no idea kulin brahmins are considered non-Bengalis.

        1. Are you talking about Indian Bengalis or Bangladeshis? As for “Kulin Brahmins being outsiders” I was referring genetic point of view.

        2. he’s just alluding to fact that bengali brahmins are 75% up brahmin + 25% bengali. their east asian fraction is literally 1/4th to 1/3rd of what it ‘should’ be.

          anyway, having east asian ancestry is not prestigious. brown ppl think white ppl are superior, so of course jats would be proud to look more white.

          1. “having east asian ancestry is not prestigious”
            It would’ve been prestigious if it was from powerful dynasties, like the Genghisid dynasty.
            Most Bengalis don’t know about the east Asian link. A vast majority think Muslim Bangladeshis are Hindu converts with some Turkish, Afghan, or Arab mix.

          2. Yes ok that makes sense.

            Similar to TamBrahms vs non Brahmin Tamilians in that regard.

            Makes me wonder how UP brahmins compare to Haryanvi Brahmins and Kashmiri Pandits.

        3. I haven’t met any jatts irl who act like this. It’s more a thing I’ve only seen on anthro/genetics forums online. And it’s pretty damn embarrassing tbh.

          You do get a lot of Sikhs claiming to be “Punjabi, not Indian”, but that’s for other reasons I’m sure we’re all aware of (not that I agree with that either).

          Almost all Jatts not on those forums are proud to be Desi, at least in my experience. More proud of their identity than other diaspora South Asians, infact.

          1. I’m actually quite proud to have Indian heritage and even said that I prefer my own ethnic group to all others. The only issue is, at least where I live in the US, there are no other Hindu Jatts to be found, apart from my own extended family. Growing up, I only had White classmates, and as such only White friends, owing to the fact that I grew up in a predominantly WASP neighborhood with an assortment of Jews. This is also why I tend to hang around and date mostly Europeans or Iranians. My youngest sister was obviously more blessed in this regard as her school was more diverse owing to the suburb’s demographics changing over time. All I pointed out was that I had unique experiences in the States and even in certain places in India owing to our “White” phenotypes, which are distinct from other South Asians. If this triggers people that look like the vast majority of South Asians, then I am not to blame. There is obvisouly some insecurity they espouse that causes them to react to this information in a malignant manner. My experiences are different from other people’s and there is nothing wrong in this. Of course, I understand if some people have never met Jatts like us, but they shouldn’t be making wide-ranging assumptions about what they look like in that case. Everyone’s opinion should be respected and given equal weight when it comes to lived experiences. Anyway, I think I’ve said enough about this. I’m not here to convince the willfully ignorant to accept the truth, so they can continue to think whatever they like. It won’t change reality.

      2. Mamta looks South East Asian or even Thai to me, from an etic perspective. I know nothing about Bengalis though, so just ignore me if I sound uninformed here.

  6. Quote /Their neighboring tribes and people in all directions were also other non-Vedic (i.e. non-Puru) but “Aryan” or Indo-European language speaking tribes./

    What happened to the argument that Aryans are not a race or language family but just an honorific term to denote civilized people from speakers point of view? And that anyone could be called aryan with that logic.

  7. Most Bengalis don’t know about the east Asian link. A vast majority think Muslim Bangladeshis are Hindu converts with some Turkish, Afghan, or Arab mix.

    1) muslim bangladeshis are hindu converts (mostly). i think buddhism probably faded before the mass conversions started, which was mostly a mughal period thing according to eaton

    2) both sides of my family have lore of west asian ancestry. on my father’s side it’s his paternal lineage, which is supposedly pathan. tho very distantly. my mom’s is closer, as one of her great-grandfather’s was from delhi, and he himself was of partial west asian ancestry (persian) dating back to the 18th century. i can see a bit of this in my mother, though it’s small.

    3) but both my comilla parents turn out to be 15-20% east asian. they were a bit surprised by this, but since my mom has a cousin whose nickname is ‘jackie chan’ they weren’t totally surprised

    1. I’m not much interested in recent West Asian affinity cuz it’s clear there’s tiny or none but would like to know which Indian groups share most genetic affinities with Bengalis. 85% Indian genetic in Bengalis is UP/Bihari Obc(Kushwaha/Kurmi/Yadav) type or it has some South Indian affinity too? Maybe there’s been migration from coastal Andhra Pradesh.
      Target: Bengali_Bangladesh
      Distance: 1.0221% / 0.01022129
      37.4 Uttar_Pradesh
      33.0 Velamas
      13.2 Kapu
      7.8 Burmese
      7.4 Chamar
      1.2 Dai

      1. i think i told you before, kanjar+5-20% east asian (depending on location) is a good model for non-brahmin bengalis. basically peasants from eastern UP & bihar are good proxies for the modal fraction

  8. I don’t get the fascination with Steppe barbarians — much better to be proud of being associated with Harappans. Can you imagine: IVC even gave Yoga to the world! According to Hinduism, the first yogi was Lord Shiva; and the proof of this is amply visible from IVC seals. [1]

    Further, these people beat out the Steppe horde from India: Proof of this is the negligible, i.e., around 10% to none replacement in India according to SWAT samples versus approx. 70% replacement in Europe during the bronze age. No matter whether OIT or AMT is true, I don’t think Talageri would like to be associated with a backward culture. He is a proud carrier of the Harappan flag, not of some uncouth throng. [2, 3]

    Their lack of intellectual capacity can be gauged from the following facts (assuming AMT is true):

    1. Steppe barbarians did not even know how to count. Even though they had been in contact with horses for at least 3000 – 4000 years, they counted the number of ribs of their horses to be 34 while clearly, their horses possessed 36 ribs. [3]

    2. For 3 to 4 millennia, they could only compose 0 – 10% of Rig Veda; but as soon as they arrived in India, their philosophical and literary capabilities flowered. They succeeded in composing 4 Vedas in approximately 1000 years. [4]

    On the other hand, Harappans were the cream of all ancient civilizations — amply visible from the prosperity they brought to people around the world, and not just to them. So, who would like to be associated with a dumb mob that did not even know how to count?


    1. Further, these people beat out the Steppe horde from India: Proof of this is the negligible, i.e., around 10% to none replacement in India according to SWAT samples versus approx. 70% replacement in Europe during the bronze age.

      you are lying about some of these numbers to exaggerate your argument. i know, because i am personal friends with the person you are actually citing.

      stop lying to bolster your argument (which is viable).

      On the other hand, Harappans were the cream of all ancient civilizations — amply visible from the prosperity they brought to people around the world, and not just to them. So, who would like to be associated with a dumb mob that did not even know how to count?

      you sound like an 80 year-old who has read self-published indian books his whole life. i assume you are younger. ‘cream of ancient civilizations’

      have you heard of something called the pyramids of giza? this sort of dick-measuring is embarrassing. the tendency to engage in these sort of superlatives though is common among indians so i guess i can write it off as a cultural tick.

      the ivc were superlative in some ways. but in other ways they were underwhelming. where is the graves of the queen of ur for the ivc? we don’t know much about these people, unfortunately. if we did, we’d probably talk about it a lot more.

      1. @Razib
        Thank you for your reply. A better rebuttal would be to point out what the exact percentage of Steppe ancestry in Bronze age was. As I am not an expert in genetics like you, I would have believed you. Moreover, I always point out my sources, and I would love to be corrected: I have an open mind, and I like to learn. I did not write the previous post to lie; later in this post, I will present evidence about the genetic claims that I made.

        Now coming to your review on the cream of civilizations part: I am well aware of Egyptians and Mesopotamians. They were also great; they too qualify, just like Harappans and Mayans, to be considered as one of the best ancient civilizations of all time. My reply in the previous post was in the context of Steppe, IVC people, and the cultural conundrums of the AMT theory.

        With regards to Harappans and their position in the ancient world, they appear to follow the Hindu philosophy of “Vasudev Kutumbkam” or in Christian theological terms “Love thy neighbors” (amply visible from the emphasis on trading, governance, egalitarian ethos as seen from the buildings they created, etc.). They brought prosperity to other places too — as demonstrated from the trade and cultural exchanges of the ancient world. This makes them great, perhaps even the greatest according to me. This fact can equally be seen from the kind of architecture created by them: Harappan elites thought about the poorest rather than just aggrandizing benefits to themselves. As far as I know, they were unique in doing so. I would love to be corrected if I am wrong.

        Moreover, Harappans do not appear to be warmongering, but were also not passive enough to be beaten so easily; otherwise, they would not have lasted for at least 2000 years. This is one of the points I wanted to make in my previous post.

        To prove that I am not a liar, I will present to you the following facts that were listed by your friend on his webpage:

        First Quote
        The Swat Valley samples are from 2 periods, the first one being around 1200-800 BCE and the second one around 500 BCE – 1 AD. The above Udegram_IA ones belong to the first period and are more or less in the average of the rest. Variation of steppe admixture between individuals is high, ranging between 0 and 20%. You can check a similar model for them here.

        From the 41 samples from the first period, 21 of them yielded Y-DNA. None of them belongs to the steppe_MLBA marker R1a-Z93, and there is one R1b (but could be dubious given other R1b’s assigned in the supplements). From the later samples, 15, 6 of them yielded Y-DNA, and one of them does belong to R1a. On the mtDNA side there are more matches with steppe populations.

        The burial site at Udegram from where the above samples come from is described is described in this paper³ by Massimo Vidale and Roberto Micheli. The majority of the burials had a primary and a secondary interment.

        Second Quote
        So where does this leaves us in terms of the steppe migration theory? The archaeology and the genetics tell us that this population from the Swat Valley didn’t descend from the steppe nomads. That part is clear. They do have some steppe admixture, but it’s not much (~12%?) and mostly (or totally) from the female side. Was it due to political marriages from the steppe people involved in trade in order to secure their business (marrying their daughters to locals looks like a safest way to avoid conflicts, robberies, etc… in the risky travel across the mountains passes)? Or was it something else?

        Third Quote
        The first important detail was already mentioned above: The Swat Valley samples from the Iron Age don’t have a single instance of R1a-Z93, and only one sample has it in the historical period. The paper mentions the R1a connection, but remains silent about the lack of R1a in the ancient samples.

        The second important detail is that all the steppe samples belong to a subclade of Z93, that is, Z2124. We have lots of samples across space and time in the steppe, but not a single one with the sister clade L657 has been found so far. The latter is the most common clade in South Asia today. What this means is that L657 did probably arrive together with Z2124, but it was a very rare clade among the steppe populations. Its high incidence today in South Asia looks much more like local expansion of a rare but lucky lineage than a marker for any large migration, making the overall incidence of R1a in South Asia hardly relevant for historical purposes.

        The marker that should be more directly linked to steppe migrations is clearly Z2124, which is not too high in South Asia (but it is high in Central Asia). Even then, the details of when and how it impacted those populations is unclear. Was it mostly during the Bronze Age or mostly during historical times? (And then there’s the founder effects in many populations, with Kyrgyz being a prime example).

        You can check models with modern SC Asian populations here. The first sheet uses an AASI ghost, while the second one is the same but using Mala instead, for those who prefer avoiding a ghost (just keep in mind that Mala appears in the first sheet as 9.2% Sintashta_MLBA, so that should be accounted for on the second sheet somehow).

        So, no presence of R1a-Z93 in the Bronze Age. A lot of people, including you, have written that Y chromosomal lineage R1a1a-Z93 is the marker of Steppe migration. It appears only later. Steppe ancestry is correlated with R1a1a-Z93. No R1a1a-Z93 means 0 relevant Steppe ancestry till Iron age. Not even 10% seems to be correct. I wrote 10% because there was some Steppe derived ancestry from females, though not of the right kind.

        Now if we disregard all this, please observe the female mediated invasion of India results in (~12%?) Steppe ancestry.

        @Razib, if I am wrong anywhere I ask you to correct me. I don’t lie, and I give facts; I even cite my sources. It is not correct to call me a liar because of this. Also, I have an open mind towards AMT; I have no problem in believing it if facts turn out to be so. AMT is just filled with too many contradictions right now; it carries the baggage of lying, deceit, prejudices, and misrepresentations that are too hard to ignore — the same thing that you accuse me of even though I only try to be as accurate as possible. Hence, my lack of belief in AMT, until conclusive facts to the contrary are provided.

        1. first, again, work on the length of your comments. a lot of time i don’t bother to read them cuz they are so long

          Thank you for your reply. A better rebuttal would be to point out what the exact percentage of Steppe ancestry in Bronze age was. As I am not an expert in genetics like you, I would have believed you. Moreover, I always point out my sources, and I would love to be corrected: I have an open mind, and I like to learn. I did not write the previous post to lie; later in this post, I will present evidence about the genetic claims that I made.

          looking at my own estimates (which use the same groups as narasimhan et al) a range btwn 5% (south indian non-brahmins like reddys) and 30% is reasonable. closer to 30% in pakistan (punjab) drops off to 15% in bihar.

          this is lower than europe, but in the range of peninsular southern europe. also, the 70% value works when you restrict to parts of western europe, and also means corded ware rather than yamna, as corded ware has ancestry from indigeous farmers.

          instead of 10% vs 70% i think 15% vs 50% (or 35% for southern europe) is better.

          your qualitative argument holds.

    2. Totally agree. IVC admix > Steppe admix any day of the week. There’s a reason modi runs the country and south indians run the sciences. All our steppe cousins up north do the heavy fighting in the military and get to be bollywood stars… so everyone’s a winner!

      Maratha’s are the ideal combination of both though. There’s a reason why Razib wants us all to adopt the Maratha mindset.

      1. the issue is that the mahabharata and ramayana (and vedas and bhagavad gita) are identified with the aryans. these grand myths are foundational to indian civilization.

        same with greek myths. the minoans in many ways had a superior civilization to the coarser mycenaeans, but their memory is mostly lost. their myths were absorbed and transmuted into mycenaean form.

        1. Do you think that will change as evidence mounts about the epics being aryan stories told using IVC memes?

          1. perhaps. everything would change if the language could be deciphered IMO.

            when linear B was translated scholars found that the mycenaeans were greek speakers you saw all the gods of the classical period had bronze age roots (except obv imports like dionysius)

    3. Young man is a little bit nervous? Let me guess why. Maybe we haven’t learnt anything new in last two days (we knew all this before) but it seems that OIT got caught off the guard and they have to confess that at least one group of Euro-trash ancient migrants came to SA. OIT position was unsustainable and only one small rock removed caused the whole construction to crash. I am sure that Talageri, as mathematician, can count the number of horse ribs. That was one of the key OIT supporting evidence (the other one is that all mouses have Indian genes, i.e. they followed rice, i.e. food, i.e. people, who went from Punjab and populated the whole world).

      How otherwise to explain such outburst toward the oldest civilisation since the Ice Age, the oldest language with the oldest literacy which influenced all alphabets in the world, the oldest calendar (Y7528 and counting), first metallurgy, wheel, swastika, etc, etc. It is symbolic coincidence that OIT caved in on the birthday of one of the greatest (and tallest, 187) Ar1ans, Nikola Tesla, who changed the stream of human civilisation as their ancient ancestors did, too. Two magnificent exemplars from this civilisation:

      Instead of wasting your time on amateurish genetics, linguistics I would recommend the reading of the first Khanishka’s paragraph (the second paragraph, linking Minoans and Greeks, is wrong) and dedicate your research time on studying Mahabharata with a real possibility to become a worldwide expert in this. I can make a referral to A&A to accept you in their research team. To qualify for this, you should answer the question – what the meaning of the name ‘Asia’ is. This is one old BP award question which no one answered correctly although the award (a bottle of red) went to one Jat guy. No, no that one. Alternatively, you can answer the same question for Europe. Forget wiki, a tip is – in one period of time the name of Teheran was – Europe.

      Well, I would expect from you to give the priority to answer this question (you can invite other pundits to help you) and not post any other comment in meantime.

      To relax this atmosphere let all pundits in the house listen one Indo-Serbian OIT song (Sereno’s favourite). The invitation includes Pakistanis, too (taqiyamen, jihadists, cricketers and con-liberals) because the singer had (she passed away) a muslim name, as the majority of Indo-Serbians, and sings to her boyfriend Omer (also muslim name) who spends whole nights drinking (alcohol?) in the pub instead to be with her. I think that her phenotype will be satisfactory even for a choosy Jat, APthk. Well, we have it all in one – OIT Indo-Serbians, muslims and Jats.

  9. *Similar to TamBrahms vs non Brahmin Tamilians in that regard.*

    Genetically yes. But antibrahmin sentiment never big. They’re integrated with kayasthas as bhodralok

  10. Saurav: “Does that mean, contrary to Milan’s view, its the Serbs who are actually infact (gasp !) Jats”

    As I said before, Geti, Goths, Sarmatians, Goths, Sakas, Getae, Massagetaeans (from Danube) are all Serbian speaking tribes. The names: Heti (i.e. Hati from N.Africa), Geti from Danube (i.e. Goti=Goths) describe the same tribe which spoke Serbian language.

    Jats in India are probably one of Serbian outfits which reached India and mixed there with local population. I think that everyone agrees that they came to SA (from somewhere), they are not, as OIT would assert, indigenous to the subcontinent. It was aso presented by Janayameya a scorned version of one segment of Roman Empire’s history.

    The fact is that this was a Serbian/Roman history. Some Jats probably know their (Serbian) origins and they assume that this was their history too. They are aware that they belong to the great Vinca civilisation and to Harappa as well. Millions of Indians should feel the same and I encouraged them many times to think the same. I told several times that they should assume that Roman Empire, Serbian tsar Alexander the Great and so-called ‘ancient Greece’ are parts of their history, too.

    The fact is that Serbs founded the city of Rome (western scholars assert that Raseni-Etruscans founded western civilisation), 18 West Roman emperors were Serbs, Spartacus was a Serb, so as brothers Totila (actually Tocilo) and Ostroilo. Some versions of history write about this as – Gothic wars. These Goths are actually Dacian Serbs who are ancestors of Jats. It is not so precise, but Jats can claim that was their history, too, so as Russians, Polish, Czechs, Romanians, etc but they should emphasise that they spoke Serbian at that time, i.e. they had a common name – Serbs.

    I will write about this less known and the most falsified part of European history.

    It was also mentioned that Jats “fought in the Kurukshetra war on both sides”.

    I wrote about this before and asked many times – is there any Aryan (i.e. new Sanskrit speaking migrant) in Mahabharata? This question is still taboo. I also wrote about rivers in Mahabharata, Kurukshetra and few other things. A&A researchers (Arjun&Anan) established similarities btw. Mahabharata and Iliad. I think that they still research where these came from. Jats may assume (depending when was the battle) that both families were Jats.

    Let see if someone can answer – were two Mahabharata families – Aryans? And when was this battle?

    1. PS: Khanishka, thanks for opening BP immediately for my comment. It is the first time that my comment did not have to wait for hours for publishing. It seems that you have resolved IP addressing issues (-:

  11. @Summit
    “Vedic Brahmins could survive more intact because they brought with them a lot of secular knowledge on math, astronomy, medicine, ”

    They didn’t bring any of those things. Medicine/Atharvaveda book 10 came from Harappan and tribal folk medicine (majority Indian plants).
    Astronomy came with Western Ksatrapa and Chastana dynasty in around 3rd CE. Romaka Siddhanta (Latadeva/Arya Bhattiya) astronomy is also found in Sri Lanka and Cambodia( both Buddhist countries).
    Gujarat itself was transitioning from Buddhism to Sivaism during that period(completed in 5CE/AD)

    1. @Roma – I agree with all your points

      I think even the Vedas borrow a lot from the sramana traditions and their supposed antiquity is just a way to establish authority against Joana and Buddhist rivals.

      However the Brahmins were able to outcompete Buddhists and Jainas in India as consigliere to those in power and later on even spread to faraway places like modern day Indonesia and Vietnam.

      I find them to be a very unique, interesting, group.

      1. Sumit –
        I am also now coming around to this view but I don’t know much about it at all. Can you share some examples about borrowings from Jaina and Baudha into Vedic/Santani stream?
        Also, based on what you have written about before, does this sequence make sense:
        1) Indo Aryans came from the Northwest and spread across northern India including the east – Magadh
        2) Vedic Hinduism developed/solidified further after this in the Haryana/West UP/ Eastern Punjab region
        3) In parallel Sramana traditions had developed in the east (Magadha) possibly from an IVC base. These eastern people were also Indo Aryan speaking, and perhaps of the same mix as the Vedics to the west of them (but potentially different proportions – like Punjabis vs. Biharis today)
        4) There was competition between these streams..clearly seen in early Baudha and Jaina literature..and it continued for 1000-1500 years when finally in 9th century AD or so Brahmanism became dominant..Between 500 BC and 900AD, Buddhists and Jainas (to some extent) dominated in many places and times..
        5) Borrowings happened perhaps in both directions but the concept of Karma, Punarjanam, Moksha, Ahimsa etc probably originated in Sramana schools and were coopted later in the Vedic streams

  12. @Paindu

    What are the characteristic features of a “Pappu” look? Since you use this mocking and mildly derogatory term to describe a look, I think I am correct in assuming that you consider it inferior.

    Also from your arguments it seems that this “Pappu” look is more common in higher AASI populations. So lower castes and Dalits would have more individuals who look like “Pappus”, right? So just due to the accident of birth a lower caste person has a much higher chance of looking like a “Pappu” than say a Jutt Sikh.

    Its amazing to me that extra-ordinarily well educated, second generation Indian immigrants in the USA can hold such racist views on one hand while crying racism and “micro-aggression” at the drop of a hat whenever an actual white guy so much as looks strangely at them.

    And Paindu happens to be Sikh to boot. Its continually being drilled into our heads on how egalitarian Sikhism is. But really, a real lot of casual racism in the Indian context is shown by Jatt Sikhs. chura, kanjar are common slurs among them.

    As Naipaul once mentioned, its in the nature of communities with few real achievements to their name, to pick up on something trivial and keep boasting about it in order to feel better.

    All this talk by random Mirpuris, Jats and Jutts of fitting better in the West due to their fair skin and sharp features, all this weird interest in comparing percentages of European ancestry in their castes to others seems very sad from the outside. Are these people really this dumb?

    1. @Janamejaya

      I’m not going to discuss this any further. I did not mean “pappu” in a pejorative manner (even thought it was taken as such or may have across as so). All I meant was stereotypically South Asian looking. People in my own family and friends’ group can have this look.

      If it came across as offensive toward anyone, I apologize. That was not my intention. Also, please don’t project your thoughts and opinions about the inter-dynamics of white Americans and diaspora South Asians on to others. Not everyone has the same experience or behaves in the same manner.

      I know the ground reality of “casual racism” among Jatt Sikhs. No need to lecture me about it. However, it seems you have bone to pick with some of these NW South Asian groups but I have no intention of getting into an argument with you over it.

      1. sometimes diasporic and nondiasporic groups can get their wires crossed.

        i heard of a guju who had curly hair and was dark. he was american-born. his relatives who were lighter told him he looked ‘south indian.’ it was meant pejoratively, but he was quite proud, as where he group up all the south indians were the smart well-off people. he knew them well enough to get what they were saying, but when you are american, brown-is-brown (unless you are white-passing or so dark and ambiguously featured ppl may think you are a black).

        1. @Razib

          Agreed. For example, my own username can be used in a pejorative sense or refer to rural/uneducated village folk back in Punjab. However, some of us in the diaspora take pride in our families being straight from the pind.

          Regarding your example, in the Bay Area, the most well educated/highest paid tech workers are South Indians (both Brahmin and non Brahmin). There are North Indians as well but just not as strong of a demographic.

          1. Paindu doesn’t need my support but I will say this that he comes across as level-headed and not racist at all.
            Paindu – please stay – we could use a diaspora Sikh/Jatt perspective here 🙂

          2. @justanotherlurker
            I appreciate the comment man. I posted before awhile back but decided it was just too hectic. I feel like I might do the same again. This blog just has way too much going on.

          3. I second justanotherlurker. We need some different views from the usual, Hindu-Muslim stuff

          4. i guess i third the vote. i didn’t see anything pejorative in your comments.

            as for more than the standard hindu-muslim stuff…we got enough jat for a year i think? 🙂

      2. “However, it seems you have bone to pick with some of these NW South Asian groups but I have no intention of getting into an argument with you over it.”

        Calling out and making fun of the weirdness of online twerps jerking off about high R1a percentages in their genes is not the same as having problems with entire ethnic groups.

        1. I don’t recall bragging about R1a or Steppe ancestry for that matter (perhaps others did). In fact, Jatts aren’t even close to the highest R1a group. AFAIK, Khatris and certain Brahmin groups are.

          Also, the way you came after Jatt Sikhs for me using the term “pappu” (with no pejorative intent) sure suggests otherwise.


  13. @Jaydeep
    I guess you are not in Talageri camp from the post since he thinks Indo-Aryans went from Ganges to Europe. Indo-European Languages created in Indian subcontinent.
    Jats have fair amount of steppe ancestry to make fair-sided people to believe they migrated in India.
    Caste system is artificial social category created and has no correlation to do with genetics

  14. I appreciate the comment man. I posted before awhile back but decided it was just too hectic. I feel like I might do the same again. This blog just has way too much going on.

    “way too much going on.” wut???

    1. Too much going in terms of “pointless bickering and arguments that don’t go anywhere.”

      Many conversations that don’t further the discussion in a positive or useful manner.

  15. How did things turn out this way? What determines whether a group is cool or not?

    pop culture. for a while in the late 90s early 2000s serbs were the evil guys. after that muslims.

    indians are mostly nerdy stem ppl or minimarket ppl.

    also indian practices like vegetarianism and cow respect are seen as strange. just like chinese eat rats or whatever.

  16. Wow, this APthk person just came out with some real anti-Sikh stuff. What is the point of constantly saying “my turbaned friend” and all this “Gurpreet, Sukhdeep” stuff? Going after people’s religious identities is not acceptable. This person is a troll.

    kabir’s sentiment is not without foundation.

    please chill out bro APthk.

        1. @Razib

          No. I don’t have the time or energy. I’ll just elect to no longer post (this stuff is way too personal).

        2. This is why Razib is the King and always will be. IQ >>> All else. You’re the boss Mr. Khan.

          -Long time fan.

          1. there has been a lot of stuff thrown around back and forth on these jat threads. this post didn’t get the comments that JR probably would have wanted.

            i think that discussion is basically played out, so let’s just let all this drop at this point.

            your comment was quite rude, and i think paindu was misconstrued by another commentator as well. no idea why he received this rxns. so i feel bad about this.

            in any case, i’m going to just close this thread even though it’s not my post. i don’t think these are comments JR would want to see.

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