Open Thread – 12/19/2020 – Brown Pundits

We’re going to have Glenn Loury on on this Sunday’s Browncast. It was a fun conversation. Already up for patrons, and I also cross-posted to my Substack, because I think it’s such an interesting conversation.

Loury is one of the most important public intellectuals alive today. He speaks for many, many, people. Many people in science who are not on the far Left follow his work closely because he knocks down the shibboleths of preference falsification. If you can, I recommend anyone to be a patron of the Glenn Show.

54 thoughts on “Open Thread – 12/19/2020 – Brown Pundits”

  1. What is the best way to contact Razib? I sent you a DM on Twitter, but it was on a new/throwaway account, so it might have been flagged as spam. Have some stuff I want to get your thoughts on.

    1. It wasn’t my thoughts that I wanted to share so much as it’s your thoughts I want on a handful of things/people- stuff you might feel more comfortable sharing in private to keep things ‘respectable’, as it were. Nothing bigoted or sordid, but you catch my drift? Anyway, I DM’d you again, if you still don’t want to interact on Twitter, I’ll leave a comment here.

    1. Wasn’t expecting India to make more than 150 in both innings, 50 each from Pujara, Kohli and Rahane, everyone other batsman on the lineup is either new or useless.

      Agarwal, Rahane, Saha and Vihari couldn’t even face 100 balls, latter 2 didn’t even face 50.
      Shaw didn’t even face 10.
      If we don’t replace at least 2 of them for the next match, then we’re easily gonna lose by an innings.

      Winning the previous series in AUS probably set a higher benchmark for this series, when in reality we’re playing with a weaker team than before.

      Disappointing to see both India and Barca struggling.

      1. Barca struggling for 4th in such an uncompetitive league is a joke. It’s if Bayern had struggled to be in top 4 in Bundesliga.

        1. “Barca struggling for 4th in such an uncompetitive league is a joke.”

          La Liga changed their TV money distribution policy. Smaller clubs get more than before now sort of like PL. So this season has grown more competitive.

          I wish India had the depth that these small European countries have in terms of sporting culture. Becomes tiring watching the same 7-8 teams in IPL. Same problem with international cricket. Only 10 teams out of which 4 are of any use at any point in time.

  2. Some of the recent data on malnutrition coming out from the NFHS-5 survey is alarming:

    Shekhar Gupta mentioned in his recent Print article: “Over the past five years, our economic growth rate has slowed down. At the poorer levels of our population, this must be more pronounced. So, families have less and less surplus for nutritious foods: Milk, poultry, meat, pulses, vegetables, fruits. Read the NFHS results, therefore, with the GHI’s, and it makes sense.”

    1. It gels with Arvind Subramanian’s research that Indian GDP growth has been overstated. Also, the NSSO consumer-expenditure survey of 2017-18 was scrapped but the details leaked to the press. It showed per capita consumption declining between 2011-2018.

      All that would be congruent with these findings.

    1. In many ways, my sisters and I had an exalted childhood. We traveled abroad, to Paris, Lucerne, Venice, and Tokyo, with frequent visits to see our relatives in India. Even as a young brown man, I felt secure. My parents never had to give me “the talk” that many Black teenagers receive. At the same time, I knew better than to expose my family life, even something as simple as the food in our refrigerator, to the judgment of the white world.

      Can anyone take this clown seriously?

      1. principia, many blacks do not receive “the talk” in the way he thinks. “The talk” centers on how to avoid suffering violent crime at the hands of others. Blacks in the USA in 2019 as per the FBI crime data base were 7.8 times as likely to be victims of homicide than non blacks inside the USA.

        Black boys who do well in 8th grade standardized exams are far less likely to be victims of violent crime, perpetrate violent crime, be incarcerated, violently attack police, be violently treated by police. “The talk” as he puts it often centers on academic excellence.

      2. At the same time, I knew better than to expose my family life, even something as simple as the food in our refrigerator, to the judgment of the white world.

        I would ask my mom to make bland sandwiches or other white ppl food to take to middle school lunch to avoid explaining Indian food to ppl.

        Seems dumb in hindsight but felt like a big deal at the time if I remember correctly.

        1. Most 2nd gen brown ppl i know followed a ‘boomerang’ tendency with regards to brown culture.

          initially they are cool with it as kids, as the parents are the primary influences.

          around teenage years a desire to fit into the peer group makes it a bit embarrassing, so there is a desire to move away from it.

          as an adult its once again cool to indulge in the aspects you find interesting.

    2. Ronen, Asians in the USA do well. What is his concern? That Americans will have a jealous backlash against successful immigrants and foreigners who live in foreign countries?

      Is the situation of Asian expat communities around the world analogous to Jews?

      What he is speaking of is jealousy, not racism. Jealousy (evil eye) is as old as time. Part of what it means to be human is learning to adjust to the jealousy of others.

  3. In the USA, Latinos have a mean 18% Native American DNA. “Blacks” have a mean 73% African DNA. A large number of people with over 2/3 European DNA self identify as Black. I wonder how much more socio-economically “blacks” with a lot of non black DNA (European, Native American, Asian) do compared to “blacks” with a high percentage of African DNA. [“Blacks” with a low percentage of subsaharan African DNA include Kamala Harris.] Could this be partly driving soaring inequality among black Americans (most unequal large group of people inside the USA)? Non Somali African ancestry immigrants tend to socio-economically perform better than caucasians. African ancestry immigrants are one of the leading causes of soaring black American inequality and the soaring size of the black American upper middle class. But we have data on the later (economic outcomes of immigrant blacks). Data is harder to find on the former (economic outcomes of “blacks” with a lot of non subsaharan African DNA).

      1. “latino estimate is WAY TOO LOW. the customer base of 23andMe is skewed to white latinos. also, the af % is low too. closer to 80%.”

        1) Where can I see a distribution of DNA for Latinos (in the USA, Mexico, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Peru, Colombia, Panama etc.)?

        2) Where can I see a distribution of DNA for Black Americans?

        Interested in not just median and mean but the distribution by percentile.


        Does anyone know a way to get data on socio-economic outcomes for Blacks with a lot of non subsaharan DNA?

  4. What do the folks here think off:

    Musa al-Gharbi (political pundit/theorist)

    Robert Wright (Nonzero, Moral Animal)

    Adolph Reed Jr. (black Marxist political theory prof., class-first, anti-idpol)

    Christopher Lasch (Culture of Narcissism, Revolt of Elites)

    Adam Curtis (HyperNormalisation, Century of the Self, etc.)

    Hari Kunzru (Red Pill, White Tears)

  5. Apart from the castes and Hinduism, the RACE is one of the most discussed topic at BP. Many pundits already know:

    Serbia “least racist in Europe” – say Harvard boffs

    The Metro publishes research which shows that people in Serbia have the lowest levels of racist attitudes in Europe. The evidence comes from Harvard, the top university in the world, where researchers interviewed a whopping 288,076 white Europeans to reach these figures.

    The controversial tests do not ask whether you hold racist views or who you vote for. Indeed, the test can reveal the “inner bigot” even in people who hold sincere anti-racist views.

    The research flies in the face of a slew of news which has implicated Serbia in a host of racist vitriol from the wars in the 90s which, according to some in the West, were stirred up mainly by Serbs in order to create an ethnically pure Greater Serbia.

    The article is published in several magazines, one of them is:

    It means that someone must be real THE Moron (मोरोन फुल्मो) to qualify Serbs as racists.

    But, let see this thing a bit deeper and find out the meaning of the word RACE.

  6. The meaning of the word RACE

    RASA is a primordial Serbian expression for single-tribeness, single-bloodness and single-kinness. This primordial word is preserved in English language in the expression RACE, meaning absolutely the same as in Serbian. It is preserved in many other languages in very similar form and identical meaning as in Serbian. To reiterate: RASA is single-kinness, single-bloodness, single-tribeness.

    The essence is in the term of number ONE. RAS for number 1 is preserved in Russian language in a newer form ODIN. In fundamental separation of reality into being and non-being, light and darkness, the term of number one represent: being – light – existence. That is why out of the word RAS (1) evolved the word RAST (growth) as the prime property of being versus non-being. Based on the term of number one the term singularity – uniqueness was built in the sense of originality. The same term viewed from another perspective is the word RAS-LIKA (difference) built out of word RAS (1 – ONE) and word LIK (image). Because, original and unique is the one who is different from others and RACE is the most obvious and visible difference among people.

    Significant number of scholars consider that RASA originates out of Sanskrit word RASYA which means BLOOD. However, Sanskrit word RASYA originates out of pra-Serbian, pra-European word RASA. Argument for this is that no word BLOOD in German, Romance or Slavic languages is connected to Sanskrit word RASYA. All Slavic words for blood sound similar and have direct connection with word CRVEN (red). While English, German and Scandinavian words representing blood are: BLOOD, BLOD, and BLUT. In Romance languages the forms are SANG or SANGE. Therefore, there is no transfer of word RASYA for blood from India to Europe. Sanskrit is much younger language than the pra-language of Serbian Danubian region and so it is logical that subsequently derived meaning of word RASA meaning BLOOD is rarely found today in India.

    The connection of names Rasani – Raseni (how Etruscans called themselves) with the name of Serbian medieval state – Raska, and the name of its capital RAS must be of direct character and not as intermediate via India.

    The term SRB (Serb) in primordial times was used similarly as the term RASA. SRB represents a connection as family so the parallelism of terms Serbia=Raska is not surprising. Serbs=Rasi=Rasani. All these terms represent people related in blood. The names SRB, which means: cousin, or RASA, which means: my image, my blood, my tribe, could have been used by people of same origin to name themselves. Out of this same root emerged the name of Russia and Russian people who pronounce the name of their country: RAS-SEE-YA. (similarly for Prussia, considering that Prussians are germanised Serbs).

    In sum, the meaning of the word – RACE (i.e. RASA) is the same as the meaning of the word – SERBS.

    Ho-ho-ho…. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

  7. The Glenn interview was amazing. It is great to hear Glen to speak on subjects he usually does not publicly speak about. Such as the rise of China.

  8. Glenn posted on Patreon:

    DEC 20, 2020 AT 10:23 AM

    In Defense of Economic Science
    Some people think that’s an oxymoron. I think they’re wrong…

    So, here I am in conversation with two very savvy, South Asian skeptics at their podcast ironically called “Brown Pundits,” offering a full-throated defense of my beloved discipline. We touch on a few other issues relevant to contemporary intellectual life along the way:

  9. What’s this new strain of corona virus that UK has announced?

    Can the educated folks here give us some more info on it?

    1. @ Prats

      There are multiple strains of any vector borne disease. Some strains propagate more than the other, some less and sometimes more or less equal in their R0 values.

      Very rarely does a specific strain gets a huge lead over all other strains so much so that it starts crowding out all other strains in multiple hosts. This one in UK accounts for a staggering 70% of all new cases.

  10. Yo Razib, if I’d like you get someone on BP, can I have them contact you (if they agree)? I also feel like a 1-on-1 with you and the person I have in mind would be the best scenario, but if there are multiple questioners, can we guarantee that you’ll be one of the participants?

    1. eNeM if you follow serbiaireland there is a rocky road to dublin for you (btw all mentioned is in a catholic environment, paganism in orthodox environment is very different, pagan gods and celebrations are often incorporated as saints and christian celebration).
      There are interested David Frawley tweets bellow on the same link. Bhrigu, he mentioned, were a Serbian tribe which moved to Asia Minor and were better known as Phrygians (because Greeks could not pronounce B, I already wrote about this).

  11. @Razib
    What is the correlation between intelligence(all types) and gene? Can malnutrition, prenatal and environmental factors drastically reduce intelligence?

    If a person has less IQ than average( IQ of 70-80),is his all hope gone? Can such a person excel in STEM and creativity?

  12. This is a preview comment which I will make under the text “The original Chinese man – It all begins with the Zhou” at

    It is interesting text which says a lot between the lines. It is good that it was mentioned 3600 years instead of 5000, but what was before that? In all texts about early Chinese history is barely mentioned the role of so-called ‘Indo-Europeans’, often called barbarians. Who were they, which language they spoke, which genetics they had, did they have settlements, have they left their toponyms, what was their role in establishing first dynasties? Were they maybe a stream in the “Indo-European”, “steppe” wave which came to South Asia?…

    And unescapable Greeks? They never had states nor kingdoms. All history texts disguise if they were indigenous Balkan people or colonists. If they were colonists where and when they came from? ‘Mycenean and Minoan Greece’ terms are oxymorons because the name ‘Greeks’ was used widely after Roman conquering. Dark Age? This is a historical joke to prevent asking questions. We don’t know where future Greeks lived or even if they existed in this period. And suddenly, they appeared in history in a big style by organising Olympic Games even they were not close to Mt. Olympus which belonged to the ancient kingdom of Macedonia. What to say about their Olympian mythology 4-500 years earlier at the time of the Trojan battle? And who lived in Troy and so on…

    We expect from the author to answer some of these questions in the future texts. Let’s not be so secretive, the above mentioned ‘Indo-Europeans’ were Serbian speaking tribes which coexisted with Chinese for more than 1500 years. They had periods of peaceful cohabitations, allying against Mongols and fierce mutual conflicts. We will add to our TO DO list to present some happenings and wars from this period. I guess, it will be, as far as I know, the world premiere and another great achievement for BP.

  13. i think the idea is to separate the Punjab/Haryana farmers to the rest of the country farmers. Perhaps the Govt think it can wear them down, and once the vaccine rolls out in earnest, the Govt will get some political capital back. Let see how it goes.


    Use translate function to English.

    Always warms my heart to see a terrorist get caught.

    Modi cannot back down. He has the mandate via consent of the governed and even on major surveys, the majority of the governed support these specific laws. The blackmail job down by these leftists and middlemen, misleading farmers and taking khalistani money, cannot be entertained.

    Heck, even the international community supports getting rid of these ridiculous laws. India needs to modernize and push for economic freedom; agriculture is no exception.

  15. Pointed comment from indiaspeaks subreddit

    “Being a farmer in Punjab is like being a government servant. They have leached off our subsidies for so long and now they are terrified of getting fired lol.”

    1. From the link:
      “”Whatever the starting population, what happened to Indigenous Americans after Europeans arrived amounted to genocide: the systematic obliteration not just of individuals but also of their culture and community — what the philosopher Claudia Card called the “social death” at “the center of genocide.”

      Colonization resulted in such immense destruction that the rich cultures of the pre-contact Caribbean can be reconstructed only through a blend of oral traditions and scientific study, including the new insights provided by ancient DNA analysis. It is a blessing to be able to get closer to this heritage. And it is the loss of the people and cultures that produced this heritage that most provokes our outrage.””

      >>>>>>>>>>> Who were these ‘Europeans’? It should be specific so as in the case of so-called ‘steppes’ or ‘Indo-Europeans’. They were – R1b. Their ancestors (Yamnaya people, future ‘Westerners’) did the same thing almost 5000 years ago in Europe itself when came and destroyed Vincha, the oldest and the highest culture in the world at that time. Maybe it sounds unscientific now (tomorrow probably will not) but they have some genocidal gene in themselves. In last 5000 years they started almost all wars in history and almost exterminated indigenous people in Europe (I2), North and South America, Caribbean, Australia and conducted genocides in Africa, Asia and Middle East. Another (Nobel) chance for Khanishka to explore and confirm this assertion.

  16. Hi. I would like to mail in a piece for the blog. Is it possible? It is about Indian Foreign Policy, and how the Basic Structure Doctrine has transformed amidst changing Indian Nationalism.

  17. Hello Razib, DaThand and others with knowledge of genetics.

    I have a noob question in genetics:

    If the table says “Y-haplogroups percentage distribution in studied regional population groups of India”

    and the data shows:

    View post on

    So take for example Himachal Brahmin, does this mean 30% of Himachal Brahmins can trace their roots (Y-DNA) to “N” haplogroup, 47.37% of them can trace their roots (Y-DNA) to “R1A1”. So if 47% had r1a1, that means all their male ancestors were r1a1 upto when the first mutation occured?

    Am I right in this? Thus Gotras make sense?


    “At every step of the way, the Quaid wanted a progressive, prosperous, pro-women Pakistan, and thought Islam the most tolerant of faiths – and yes, a belief in both is possible without one’s head exploding.

    At other times, our leaders looked at Jinnah and saw themselves. To hail the Quaid was to deny the Mahatma; to affirm Pakistan was to reject India. ‘The Hindus have always humiliated us,’ President Bhutto told an interviewer in 1972. ‘Our religions,’ he said, ‘go too deep into our souls.’”

    1. “The American Revolution would have happened without Washington, there was a China ages before Mao, and the jury’s still out on whether Gandhi slowed down independence or speeded it up.

      But without Jinnah, there is no Pakistan. This was a one-man project as audacious as it was unrealizable. Yet the Quaid brought it to realization.”

      The author doesnt seem to realize that this is more revealing of Pakistan’s weakness than Jinnah’s strength.

      1. “But without Jinnah, there is no Pakistan.”

        I doubt this theory. Pakistan in some form was inevitable due to the demographic changes of the preceding two centuries. Much more so than a united America or China.

        When and how could have varied.

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