Open Thread – 11/28/2020 – Brown Pundits

I’m on the road now, so this is prescheduled. Hope Americans had a good Thanksgiving.

For those who are asking, I’m keeping the Patreon because I allocate it to Brown Pundits related costs (hosting podcasts, recording software, etc.). I will be cross-posting some, but not all, podcasts from my paid Substack.

139 thoughts on “Open Thread – 11/28/2020 – Brown Pundits”

      1. just as an aside, I don’t know anyone that wants to voluntarily move to a third world country that they didn’t grow up, except as an expat for retirement.

        1. depends on the country. i know several americans and europeans that have moved to southeast asia. young ppl. thailand viet indonesia. i don’t count singapore as 3rd world

          1. hmm. I don’t personally know of those people but now that you bring them up, I’ve read some stuff about that. Some even make a living “begpacking.” Wild people even given them money

        2. What makes you think that? I have several friends and a cousin who moved back to Pakistan permenantly after spending more than a decade working in Canada.

          As long as you have enough money to buy a property and marketable skills, its not a problem finding a very decent job and living a very good life. Life in North America is based on around the nuclear family and work, many people dont like that culture and want to spend more time with family, or live in an environment that they feel they really belong in.

          1. if you have family there already maybe. Idk man, going to a new third world country to move permanently. That just feels sketch to me. Maybe I’m not adventurous enough. I would go to travel. I can see someone actually traveling and liking it there and then moving permanently. But going with plans to permanently settle in a third world country, where you know like only the person you are going with or no one else. Just seems very odd to me, unless maybe you are going to retire with tons of money as an expat. But again this is specifically referring to young people in the 1st world moving to a 3rd world country they have neither lived in before nor have any known family in.

          1. Lol no. There is no such thing. Grooming Jihad of minors is different or coercion Jihad w/ black mail or threats of violence if one does not marry. These are two consenting adults, perhaps fictional ones, but two consenting adults, if the story is taken at face.

        3. If you are an ambitious person and work in tech/tech adjacent fields then India+SE Asia are pretty hot destinations. I know plenty of expats in Bangalore and Delhi.

          I guess moving to India is for either the least ambitious hippy folks or the most ambitious ones. The middle majority would be better off where they are. Or if you have very specific interests like mountaineering and want to spend time in the Himalayas.

          If you’re in an Indo-Pak marriage then Dubai or Singapore are the best possible places to live in.

      2. Numbers don’t quite add up, also the redditor has just one post ever.

        18 when out of school + 0-2 years cram school + 5 years in MBBS = 23-25 before even stepping out of India.

        My money is on this being some chomu Pakistani teenager who is bad with filling details.

    1. Lol, OP used the word “janab”, which is pretty much a meme at this point, and said that it “is a word used regularly in india too” (can anyone living in north India back this up? I’ve only seen “saab” “sir” “bhai” or “bhaijaan”)

      And one user said that OP will keep running into discussions on how and why they should convert to islam if they move to pak (which is obvious unless OP has been living under a rock), and just like that, OP says “Time to convince him to move back to UK I guess”. Even on the off chance that this is real, that’s pretty dumb and careless to be making such important life decisions based on random comments.

      1. The person who replied caught it out flat, no one says janab other than bollywood writers when representing brown pant army. That whole thread is just BS. With all that is happening in the sub-continent in the name of religion, there is no reason for an Indian Hindu to move to Pakistan of all the places.

        1. , there is no reason for an Indian Hindu to move to Pakistan of all the places….

          ….Unless the person doesn’t see herself/himself as a Hindu , which many of the Upper class Delhi/Mumbai folks don’t anyway.

          1. May be, they could live in a western liberal society, but to move to Pakistan marrying a Muslim, that’s a bit of a stretch. Right now, the Hindus in the Sindh are fighting for a no-conversion law similar to the one that India passed, because of the abductions of Hindu women, so I will doubt these Bombay/Delhi types can survive Pakistaniyat in its raw form.


          Exact same format of a post today. LMFAO. This is just amazing

          “Salam, Just hoping for some input on an interfaith relationship, and hoping that this forum is the right place to post in. I recognise that this is a bit of an unconventional issue and would appreciate any constructive, open-minded advice.

          I am a 23yo F doctor, Indian by background but born/brought up in a western country, family is culturally Hindu but I consider myself spiritual and believe in God but don’t affiliate myself with any particular religion. I am in a relationship with a British Pakistani Muslim man who is also the same age – he is Pakistani by background, but like me, born and brought up in a western country. We’ve been in a committed relationship for over a year and have every intention of getting married in the future, as we have a very similar worldview and are culturally very similar as well (Indian/Pakistani origin brought up overseas).

          Our pre-marital relationship has a strong emotional foundation and we haven’t committed zina and have no intention of doing so before we are married. However, he has had a premarital sexual relationship in the past with a long-term Muslim girlfriend. He also drinks alcohol, eats pork etc, but at the same time is spiritually Muslim and prays, fasts etc. He himself is evidently not super religious, but his family is – his grandfather is actually an Imam (ofc his family don’t know about his drinking, relationships etc.). He said there is no compulsion for me to convert/revert, and I appreciate this as although I consider Islam a good religion based on my reading of the Quran, I don’t think changing myself so drastically for marriage should be required, and it would also hurt my family’s feelings. Despite this, I would be happy to educate myself about Islam, and raise my children as good Muslims who are culturally sensitive and can appreciate that other people follow different religions/cultural traditions (e.g. Diwali).

          Was just hoping for some advice/input on how to best navigate the situation of disclosing this relationship to his family and seeking their blessings. This relationship is genuine and loving, and I hope that marriage will be possible with family approval on both ends.

          Many thanks in advance.”


    “99 percent indians are haters and jealous …jealous of our culture… prime minster… even the indian women hate the pakistani men only because we are more aesthetically pleasing then thier small johny levers… inside they have sp much inferior complex its shocking…they lick so much western ass yet pakistan is still doing well without licking ass… even these scammers online who scam when they get caught chat shit saying they pakistanis cuz they just hate thier own existence so want pakistanis to feel same… so they make indians look better infront of western world and not pak… gandhi was a gandu in reality a piece of uneducated filth who licked western masters ass and this now runs in india… jinnah stopd up took action which kills these indians…greed and power? Lmaoooo what about kashmir? With your modi? Ill give you advice speak to pakistani women better looking speak better more respect still cultural”

    One of the greatest comments I have ever read lol

    1. I don’t really get y they hate modi, though. I mean he is hardly indira. He is doing stuff to Kashmiris which other Indian leaders have done too. Apart from that it seems odd to hate on modi (more).

      Unless the real reason is he is a self avowed hindu, which our earlier leaders were not. So perhaps there is an expectation mismatch where Pakistanis felt that all Indian leaders (should) be secular.

  2. Wiki: Grotte du Bichon is a karstic cave in the Swiss Jura. It is the site of the discovery of the skeleton a hunter-gatherer of the Azilian (late Upper Paleolithic to early Mesolithic), dubbed “Bichon man”, a young male about 20 to 23 years old, carbon dated to 13,770–13,560 years ago (95% CI).[1]

    A genetic analysis of the man showed membership in the “West European Hunter-Gatherer” lineage known from younger fossils of the European Mesolithic. He was a bearer of Y-DNA haplogroup I2a and of mt-DNA haplogroup U5b1h. Y-DNA haplogroup I2a probably arose in Europe prior to the Last Glacial Maximum.

    1. He also had Aurignacian ancestry. Though not nearly as much as La Brana, Chan, Moita do Sebastiao.

  3. Comment on your post on your other blog without the links. I thought people here could benefit from it too. I took out some of the links, so it makes it through moderation more easily.

    Much of the BMI stuff is related to bone structure. South Asians have smaller bone structures on average.

    Smaller boned= less cross sectional area for lean mass= less lean mass overall so less baseline BMI to begin with

    Also, modern diabetes guidelines don’t dictate too much difference between E and S Asians, maybe falsely so. For example, bariatric surgery referrals are done for otherwise asymptomatic people who have failed diet and exercise intervention, with a BMI of 40. For Asians in general, not just S Asians, the cut off is 35.

    Even E and W Africans have this divergence in bone structure. West Africans are known to have powerful mesomorphic builds on average, the same people who many American athletes descend from. E Africans are known to be good distance runners and have quite slight builds. The same BMI parameters for an average Kenyan or Somalian cannot be used for say an average Ghanaian or Nigerian.

    And yes the modern vegetarian diet sucks. The older one in farming areas of India emphasizes consumption of a lot of whole wheat, millet, tons and tons of dairy, and lots of fruit/vegetables. The dissemination of products like Coca Cola or even just Indian fast food in general has transformed this diet to utter trash, in terms of nutrition.

    “The dyslipidemia in South Asians is characterized by elevated levels of triglycerides, low levels of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, elevated lipoprotein(a) levels, and a higher atherogenic particle burden despite comparable low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels compared with other ethnic subgroups. HDL particles also appear to be smaller, dysfunctional, and proatherogenic in South Asians.”

    A lay good article on super “sticky” type of LDL and its relation to diabetes, a disease S Asians are more susceptible- postulated, with some good evidence, to be 2/2 to “thrifty phenotype” 2/2 to frequent famines- some probably anthropogenic but others perhaps due to the unique degree of high land fertility in the subcontinent, particularly the confluence of the gangetic, indus, and brahmaputra plains, resulting in massive boom-bust population cycles, subject to highly variable Malthusian constraints.

  4. hmm. I don’t personally know of those people but now that you bring them up, I’ve read some stuff about that. Some even make a living “begpacking.” Wild people even given them money

    ag scientist. geneticist. philosophy professor. teacher.

    there are normal ppl moving out of usa now

        1. Yeah. Weird. I guess I just haven’t met a ton of these types. I know some that grew up in these places and want to go back. But never the other types. I guess I just have to talk to more people. I know some older expats. But young people, not so much.

          Now that I think of it, I know one nature photographer dude who moved to part of East Africa. I suppose I know of one person. But he also plans on returning eventually, or so he said.

          I know of one young attending who I had who did a stint for a few years in a poor country in S America. But he also always planned on coming back and came back in 3 years.

          Just a young person permanently moving to a third world country they have never lived in before, it just blows my mind a bit.

      1. For a lot of jobs you can earn the same income remotely. But your money goes a lot further in 3rd world so you can live comfortably.

        So for eg. I know a software developer who saves like 80% of his income for Early Retirement. His wife works part time and homeschools their young kids on the US curriculum.

        Says he is on track to retire / live of investments and pursue his own projects in a couple of years.
        Indonesia seems popular as it’s low crime, cheap and has nice natural beauty.

        North Africa and South America for people who need to be in the same time zone as Europe/ North America.

        This trend is only going to increase imo.

        1. I don’t get why these jobs just aren’t outsourced there. Is it a case of the best talent just being here, so no option but to recruit and pay. Then these people go elsewhere? Software sounds pretty sweet. Medicine has its perks (going away day by day lol), but this type of situation is not one of them.

          1. “I don’t get why these jobs just aren’t outsourced there.”

            Outsourcing is viable for somewhat low value/disposable/portable skills, very often ones that don’t involve a high degree of communication/networking skills. These expat people living in Indonesia and making money from the US must be some of the most bakchod people out there to be able to negotiate such arrangements.

            Is it a case of the best talent just being here, so no option but to recruit and pay.
            Then these people go elsewhere? Software sounds pretty sweet.

            Hiring across countries is complicated, there are risks, biases, inertia. No outsourced job comes back simply because others do it better and cheaper. To me it appears that most Americans are way overpaid for the work they do and there are scores of people in India who can do a better job for less. I can understand the difference if someone is innovative or entrepreneurial but mostly it is just living in a better off country. Having said this, I concede that the average American coder is superior to even the above average Indian coder, has better education, exposure, experiences and ideas.

            Medicine has its perks (going away day by day lol), but this type of situation is not one of them.


          2. “I concede that the average American coder is superior to even the above average Indian coder, has better education, exposure, experiences and ideas.”

            This has more to do with the circumstances of each group mentioned here. The average and even above-average Indian coder went into computer science because that’s what his (most coders are male) family told him to do for a safe upper-middle-income white-collar job. Post-college this is what is top on student’s lists since big tech pays the most without looking much into things such as how cultivated they are. Outside of the better-off urban classes, many Indian coders now in their late-20s and 30s grew up without a computer. Given a choice, these programmers may have preferred another line of work if income wasn’t a factor.

            By contrast, American coders are those who primarily want to code and were exposed to it from their early teens. There’s far more scope for them to set up something of their own since they won’t have to deal with H-1B issues, so more innovative push factors there.

            The goals are different too, leaving aside the cream of the Indian crop (who eventually venture into startups or VCs), most would be satisfied with an upper-middle income living in a safe neighborhood with the family. Many of the Americans otoh will be aiming for the next big thing, even if it doesn’t work out they normally have something to fall back on.


    ^The issue is the double standard. Show a Hindu man kissing a Muslim woman inside a mosque. That will not be done. Actually, those movie producers who see this hypocrisy should do it. Granted, they are risking getting blown up or beheaded by some radical. Like I said, islamic forces and the Left are in an unholy alliance. The Left has taken over the executive in the most powerful nation in the world. Things are about to get bumpy.

    1. “Islamic forces and the Left are in an unholy alliance”
      Why will the left ally with right-wing Islamists? There must be some strategic reasons.
      Even different Islamist factions are heavily opposed to each other.

      “The Left” of different regions of the world are not connected. So, I am assuming that you are talking about Western Liberals.

  6. @Razib How much European, West Asian and West Eurasian ancestry do people from Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia have?

    1. Probably around 2-5%. Filipinos might’ve gotten from Spanish. In Indonesia it might vary from island to island, the easternmost isles might have none. The most West Eurasian shifted Southeast Asians are Burmese and Thais. They’re about 10% IIRC.

        1. “Indonesians and Malays got from Arabs?”
          I’m not sure. It could be from both South Asia and the Arabian peninsula with the former being the principal contributor.

          “Burmese got from Bangladeshis?”
          Most likely.

          “and what about Thais?”

          Razib made lots of articles about Southeast Asia in the past. You can read them.

  7. there are many indians who have come back, including my relatives and friends. many have come back because of visa issues, and some more because of “cultural” issues of not wanting their young daughters going the “western way”.
    but, one thing is that all of them have accepted the ‘indian’ wages and style of working and are sort of ok with this.

    increasingly, there are many cases of returnees from uk, and europe in general as they could not get jobs after their studies.

    1. Makes sense. Returning is one thing. Even moving, if you have enough family yet you’ve never lived there also works.

      Going as a young person to one you have no family in and have never lived in that is known to be a theocratic state that persecutes the religion you are from and stil practiceto some degree, as the commercials would say…priceless

    1. Yeah read it this morning myself too. Well written.

      The irony that such publications mention stuff like benefits of the farming bill, yet won’t support central government in its efforts to withstand the pressures of the protesting farmers who want continuation of the socialist policies. At least in the US, the free market oriented media houses support free market based moves of the government.

      Demonitization I totally get the protests. GST roll out was bad too. But this is a good reform, IMO

          1. U really think bongs give a damn. For them u are all baniyas. U can fight all day long as in who’s the agarwal and who’s maheshwari and all. U should visit Calcutta once

          2. I visited. Never again. The trams were a nuisance. The old taxis were charming though. I visited because my cousins used to own a printing press there. They settled in the 1970s. They do other stuff now but never left of course.

            But summarize really what the issue is. I’m still not getting this animosity. What the heck did Gujaratis do to Bengalis? Also, there is a comment in there that directly distinguishes Gujaratis from Marwaris, stating Bongs respect those with their own language. So there is distinction mentioned on that webpage itself.

    Video on village Delhi bouncers come from. Happy to see such physical people. Granted, even more evidence Indians across the board, even the so called martial race types from Haryana, as depicted in the video, are still not huge people.

    These men are going to work as bouncers. Bouncers are generally about 2 SDs above the mean size of a societu, from what I have seen. These guys would be considered small in America. And yes I know, American ones probably have access to more roids debately. But even then…

    And yes not denying Indian doesn’t have huge freaks. The thing is that there are a lot of people. And some groups are a bit bigger on average but still small compared to American Blacks and Whites bone strucutre wise, even with good nutrition. But they have a big ego because their distribution shifts such that their disproportionate representation at the top in terms of hige dudes makes them feel their average dude is bigger by a much bigger margin than what reality dictates.

  9. Published paper that provides preliminary evidence of Dravidian substratum and loanwords into several IE languages – Russian, Greek, Lithuanian, German, Latin and English

    Igor Tonoyan Belyayev prepares the reader by stating that linguists treat AIT as gospel and never undertake comparative studies between IE and South Indian languages. They limit comparisons to Semitic and Uralic families. Any comparison is discarded as a mere coincidence. Although he cautions that this work is preliminary and not final, he also points the readers to ideological blinkers. One that has historically prevented linguistic studies suggesting OIT from attaining a critical mass.

    Belyayev lifts the veil on the deep relationships by pointing to not just loanwords for animals, plants, foods and human activities but also delineates important structural similarities between South Indian languages and the IE family in totality. Belyayev specifically concludes that this can only be possible if the IE Urheimat is in the Indus-Saraswati valley and South Eastern Iran.

    1. Good contribution to our linguistic debate. The guy is an oit similar to Konrad E. We discussed before his “Five waives…” brought by mmk. However, it is pretty unconvincing to me. All linguists are pretty sloppy with calendar and it is impossible to follow a certain timeline. They jump thousands of years up and down. There is no even slight intention to explain HOW and WHEN Dravidian language met English, Lithuanian, or Latin and Greek. Such meetings should follow genes flow and crosscheck each other.

      Because neither geneticists alone nor linguists alone cannot make a comprehensive framework of synchronised gene/language dispersion (plus – soon we will discuss mythology and toponyms will be icing on the cake). If someone notices that for e.g. Sanskrit and English/German have something in common, he should explain how it is possible if there is 3500 years between them. And, how the birthplace of so called Indo-European (again this meaningless term) is Iran/India if Indo-Iranian and Sanskrit are less than 4000 years old? I would ask this guy and everyone else – which language(s) was spoken in Europe for 9000 years btw 12000BC-2800BC.

    2. I am stumped: How can @Milan Todorivic’s ignorance be so boundless to not even know the names of languages that were spoken before PIE? @Razib Khan did a piece “The Basques May Not Be Who We Think They Are” on Basque, the oldest surviving *Pre Indo European language* that was likely spoken first in Neolithic Europe. The conclusion was:

      “A new paper in Human Genetics supports the contention that the Basque are just like other Europeans, A genome-wide survey does not show the genetic distinctiveness of Basques.”

      A few facts for widening of the horizon:

      1. There were various Pre Indo European languages. Some of these are: Tartessian, Aquitanian, Iberian, Etruscan, Rhaetian, Camunic, Urartian, etc.

      2. Genetic research has decisively revealed that PIE’s earliest attested descendants — Hittites, Mycenaeans — have Y-haplogroup J2; it was spoken in West Asia — in Iran or Armenia (South of Caucasus) which borders Iran — and it has nothing to do with Europe. The most fascinating part is that all IE groups have Iran_N/CHG ancestry — including Harappans.

      3. Linguistic research asserts that, most likely, PIE was spoken in the 4th millenium; other periods 5500 – 4500 BC and 7500 – 5500 BC are also proposed. The mainstream theory believes that PIE languages were first spoken in the Steppes before spreading into Europe. PII is assumed to have existed since 3rd millenium BC.


      “ Yet, Sikhs are not Hindus. They are not impressed by Hindutva. If they were, they would not have rejected Modi at his peak thrice.

      We learnt this in Bhindranwale’s heyday. The RSS then wouldn’t believe that the Sikhs could turn on Hindus in Punjab. Balasaheb Deoras, then Sarsanghchalak, made a statement that there was no difference or dispute between Hindus and Sikhs, who were, after all, keshdhari (hair-bearing) Hindus.

      Some of us journalists happened to be sitting in Bhindranwale’s durbar at the Golden Temple, as was customary. He said, with a smirk the width of the Sutlej in flood, if that “knicker-dhari” says we Sikhs are keshdhari Hindus, what will he call the Muslims? Sunnat-dhari (circumcised) Hindus?

      To understand how complex and different Punjab is, stay with me. Bhindranwale and his people now demanded distinct minority status and a separate personal law for Sikhs. A delegation of the richest Sikhs came to his durbar with folded hands. “Don’t do this, Sant ji,” they pleaded. “We shouldn’t lose our tax benefits under HUF (Hindu Undivided Family).”

      Warlock the last part ☝️ Has the solution u want. U want greater assiabiya ? Apply cost to non/less hindu ethnicities. And the u will see how there would be a race for everyone to become a “hindu”. Same with love jihad etc.

      1. yeah Shekhar gupta repeated this exact words. I watched the video this morning. Economics is a big motivator

        But like I said, Hindutuva made the mistake of not recognizing Sikhs as a distinct entity. No need to suck up to them but also do not just say they are one and the same as Hindus. They are not.
        Respect the differences.

        For these protests, I hope they stay firm but civil. Market based agricultural reforms are necessary. This has to be done.

        The protest leaders share one thing in common with the Khalistan movement; they are largely of Jatt Sikh origin. There is a racial and tribal component to this all as well. Birdari ethnonationalism is very real from the islamoapologists across the border to the bhinderwale reverents. Religion is often just a disguise.

        Gupta did give me food for thought, when he said something along the lines of: Sikhs don’t have apprehension about Muslims like Hindus do. They are into Pan Punjabiyat to some degree. They know they can “take care of them,” if things get out of hand.

        Honestly a lot of that is population based. As soon as the population gets high enough, they change their tune. Look at the UK. The relationship is poor between the two communities because of the Pak rape gang behavior, etc. This is even despite a disproportionate khalistani presence there.

        Punjab had truer population exchange. It was bloody but it did settle feuds of a millennia. Maybe the rest of India needed it too. Just thinking how it could have been done with less bloodshed. Probably the best would have been a hardcore secularist like an Ataturk.

        1. Honestly, I cannot help but think a lot of this falls on the shoulders of racialism. Religion just isn’t it. It isn’t consistent. Only thing that is consistent is the steppe: aasi, as usual.

        2. Gupta also mentions in the video that if sikhs were Hindus (according to RSS-BJP) it should have been electorally sweeping Punjab (which it doesn’t), just like it does in ‘Hindu India’.

          That would mean the regions which Modi does not sweep are non/less Hindu India.

        1. Gupta exaggerates a bit, but the Durbar incident seems genuine. He did cover blue star etc and before 90s political leaders were accessible to beat reporters and such.

          Plus wouldn’t put it past bhindrawale. He was a wisecrack.


    “In a shocking interview with the Triggernometry, rape survivor Dr. Ella Hill has revealed that at least half a million Non-Muslim (Kaffir) girls have been raped by grooming gangs, operated by Muslim men in the United Kingdom, in the past 40 years. The interview was conducted by two comedians, Konstantin Kisin and Francis Foster.

    Recounting her tale of horror from 20 years ago, Hill informed that she was targeted as a teenager by her Pakistani Muslim boyfriend. She said that the relationship soon turned into a ‘controlling, obsessive, and religiously charged’ one. She reminisced about being taken to different flats around Rotherham, Sheffield, and Bradford and subsequently raped, tortured, and strangled. “You know (I) was covered in bruises that lasted over a year.” Her Pakistani boyfriend also threatened to kill her and her parents if she confided in them, the harrowing tale of brutality. As such, she was coerced into silence.

    When she tried to run away from her perpetrator, he stalked her and then barged into her house. The Pakistani man tried to execute an ‘honour killing’ along with his friends but Hill survived to tell the story. She was hospitalised for a week and had suffered multiple fractures and lacerations. Her only way out from the Pakistani grooming gang was to change her name, shift somewhere else, and start life afresh. “At that point, the police told my parents to move me away and change my name which is what they did.. and that’s how I got out of it,” Hill narrated.”

    Halal Haleem Owaisi

  11. China successfully steals nuclear reactor technology

    China brought online Friday what it claims to be its first nuclear reactor built with homegrown technology, a state-owned plant operator said, marking a significant step toward turning the country into a major industry player.

    The Hualong One, developed by China National Nuclear Corp. and China General Nuclear Power based on U.S. and French designs, is now undergoing a trial run. The third-generation pressurized water nuclear unit will soon start commercial operations as the fifth reactor at Fujian Province’s Fuqing Nuclear Power Plant.

  12. I have not been following the news. When did the farmer protests turn into this whole Khalistani, Sikh, Hindu thing?

    1. I think his wife is Punjabi.

      In any case, that’s beside the point. If he wants people to ‘understand’ the appeal of Bhindrewala instead of labelling him a terrorist then it stands to reason that he should extend that same courtesy to Hindutva instead of labelling everyone who shows sympathy to that world view as Fascist.

      But unprincipled moral relativism like this is the bread and butter of Indian ‘liberals’.

      1. A mallu knows as much about Punjab or north India for that matter, as much as Rajiv Gandhi knew about Tamils. And we all know how that one ended.

        And it doesn’t matter who he married to. Or else razib would have been white.

        1. “A mallu knows as much about Punjab or north India for that matter, as much as Rajiv Gandhi knew about Tamils.”

          Unless he’s Raftaar.

          “And it doesn’t matter who he married to.”

          I only brought this up because you mentioned he might think of himself as Punjabi on account of heroines. Couldn’t care less who he’s married to.

  13. Actually just googled Sidhu Moose Wala after reading his name here, didn’t know he’s the reason for the “jatt da muqabala” meme.

    And he looks VERY similar to my half-Tamil half-Telugu (possibly Brahmin) friend, although Sidhu’s lower lip has a more defined curl/dimple (or whatever you call it). Phenotypes are cool, I guess.

    1. I think consensus is that the dude is fugly lol but he makes good hype music for that crowd

      Just his wiki. This dude is a fucking lmfao. Jatt life studios. Just amazing.

      Moose Wala has a rivalry with Karan Aujla, both have been replying each other through their songs, social media handles and live performances.[36][37] Also, both the singers have been criticised for singing songs promoting violence.[38] Elly Mangat, both Sidhu and Aujla’s then colleague in an interview disclosed that the dispute between two singers began when Sidhu’s video targeting Aujla in his song was leaked to Aujla’s management, and they threatened attacking Sidhu. Following the incident, both started targeting each other on social media.[39][40] The rivalry was resolved temporarily till Karan Aujla released a diss-track “Lafaafe”, followed by Moose Wala’s “Warning Shot”.[41] Aujla in an interview stated that he didn’t wrote the track “Lafaafe”, and didn’t revealed anything about their rivalry, but praised Sidhu’s work.[42] In fall 2019, their rivalry was most-active as both the singers were on India tour, and targeted each other in almost every performance.

      AK-47 training
      On 4 May 2020, Moose Wala’s two videos went viral in which he was training to use AK-47 with five police officers,[43] and personal pistol in another.[44] Six police officials who assisted Moose Wala were suspended following the incident.[45] On 19 May, Moose Wala was booked under two sections of arms act.[46] Later that month, police started conducting raids to arrest him, but he went underground and evaded the arrest.[47][48][49] On 2 June, Barnala court rejected his anticipatory bail, among five accused officers.[50] In July, he gets the regular bail after he joined the police investigation.[51] On 6 June, he was fined for black-tinted glass of his car in Nabha, and was released despite being under lookout.[12] In July 2020, he released a single “Sanju”, in which he compared his charges with Sanjay Dutt. Indian shooter Avneet Sidhu criticised Moose Wala for promoting gun culture.[52][53] On the next day, case was registered on him for the song.[54] In an interview Moose Wala stated that he is being targeted by news channels and some lawyers.[7]

      Other ventures
      5911 Records
      Following the various successful songs with Humble Music, Sidhu started releasing songs independently in 2018. He released the first song “Warning Shots”, which is diss track to Karan Aujla’s track “Lafaafe”.[41] In the same year, his debut album PBX 1 was released under T-Series, following the album Sidhu released most of his tracks under his own label, and released tracks from other atists. In 2020, Sidhu released his second studio album Snitches Get Stitches under his own label.[55] On 31 August 2020, Moose Wala officially launched his record label titled “5911 Records”.[56]

      Acting career
      Sidhu is making his debut in Punjabi cinema with the film titled Yes I Am Student under his own production company Jatt Life Studios.[57] The film is directed by Tarnvir Singh Jagpal and written by Gill Raunta.[58] In 2019, Sidhu appeared in Teri Meri Jodi.[59] In June 2020, he announced another film titled Gunah.[60]

      Sidhu actively campaigned for his mother, Charan Kaur, who won the sarpanch election from Moosa village in December 2018.[61]”

  14. “The Mazhabi Sikh soldiers have a reputation for their loyalty and reliability. During Operation Blue Star in 1984, when the Indian Army entered the Golden Temple, Jat Sikh soldiers broke out in mutiny against their officers in the Sikh Regiment and Punjab regiments A total of 2,000 Sikh personnel took part in the mutinies. In the most sensational case 1,400 mainly Jat Sikhs deserted after killing their commanding officer and armed themselves. A significant number of those were also new recruits who were incited easily into mutiny and some were forced at gun point to take part in the mutinies.[23][need quotation to verify] Despite that, the Indian Army officers were correct when they expressed confidence to journalists that the Mazhabi Sikhs of the Sikh Light Infantry would not mutiny.”

    More evidence the Khalistan movement was really a Jatt Sikh semi ethnostate project

    This bleeds even into British Punjabi music scene


    “Interesting that some of the people who doubt agriculture reforms are the very same who STRONGLY supported it in the not too distant past i.e. last year. So your appeal to logic, much as rationality will support, may fall on deliberately deaf ears”

    “Reforms in India is defined as whatever the government has not done yet. As soon as it is done, some new criterion will be discovered which disqualifies it from being a True Reform (TM).”


    “n May 19, Ashwin Sah posted the best result ever on one of the most important questions in combinatorics. It was a moment that might have called for a celebratory drink, only Sah wasn’t old enough to order one.

    The proof joined a long list of mathematical results that Sah, who turned 21 in November, published while an undergraduate at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (he posted this new proof just after graduating). It’s a rare display of precocity even in a field that celebrates youthful genius.

    “He has done enough work as an undergraduate to get a faculty position,” said David Conlon of the California Institute of Technology.”

    HIs partner in crime is Mehtab Sawhney ( a 22 year old prodigy from Long Island.

    Sah (Odia or Bengali?) and Sawheny (Keshdhari Punjabi Sikh) among the most promising undergrad Math prodigies in the country.

    No Khalistani bullshit or Biradari supremacy 🙂

  17. saurav:
    Sorry, I check this site off and on and missed your response on the previous Open Thread post.
    To you Agrawals, Maheshwaris, Jains etc may be interchangeable and indistinguishable but the differences and sometimes rivalries are real and ancient.

    Here is a 13th century incident at Mt Girnar in Gujarat, which is considered the Nirvan bhumi of Neminath, the 22nd Tirthankar (Arishtanemi in one of the Vedas). Neminath is considered a cousin of Krishna, and this place Girnar is 250KM from Dwarka.

    Sometime in the 13th century, two sanghs (groups/congregations) of Jains came to worship at Girnar. Both were led / sponsored by prominent wealthy Jains: one from Yoginipur/Delhi led by Purnachandra Agrawal of the Digamber sect, and another by Pethad Shah Porwal of Mandavgarh/Mandu in present day MadhyaPradesh, west of Indore, of the Shwetaber sect.

    Purnachandra Agrawal was immensely wealthy and close to Alauddin Khilji who ruled in Delhi at the time. Pethad Shah was a Porwal Jain seth who was a minister in the court of the Parmar king (Jayvarman?) of Mandu/Mandagarh. There was caste and sect difference between the two groups. Both wanted the right to worship first at the temple on the Shikhar, and they resolved it in the way Banias to this day do – auctioned the right to the highest bidder.

    Bidding went on for a long time with both Purnachandra and Pethad raising the stakes constantly but ultimately Pethad won with a “Boli” of 56 ghadis of gold = 1200 kg or equivalent of 500 crore rupees today.

    1. NP lurker, when u are not here, i just think warlock does the job. For me all baniyas are same too 😛

  18. Good origin story

    “It did not matter to the Tat Khalsa that the real name of the Golden Temple is Hari Mandir and, “Of the 15,028 names of Gods that appear in the Adi Granth, Hari occurs over 8,000 times, Ram 2,533 times followed by Prabhu, Gopal, Govind and other Hindu names for the Divine. The popular Sikh coinage Wahe Guru appears only 16 times”. (Khushwant Singh).

    After several decades, the Tat Khalsa emerged victorious. According to W. H. Mcleod, it ensured that “in 1905, idols were removed from the Hari Mandir”. (Historical Dictionary of Sikhism). Modern Sikhism is a creation of this movement.”

    “To retain effective control over Punjab, the British drove a wedge between the Jats and Khatris. They passed the Punjab Land Alienation Act of 1900, which created a favoured, dominant, agriculturist class and a non-agriculturist class. The former included Hindu and Sikh Jats and Muslim tribes, and the latter, Hindu Brahmins, Khatris and Banias. The Act made tribe and caste the basis for land ownership. The British sought to anchor itself in Punjab by playing up the distinctions between Hindus and Muslims, while nurturing Muslim and Sikh Jats as loyal subjects.

    In this manner, the British supported the Jat Sikhs who were the prime movers of the Tat Khalsa movement.

    The consequences were many. One, the birth of the Akali Dal and its control over gurudwaras heralded the tradition of mixing religion and politics. Control of the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee is key to political power in Punjab. Two, it made Jats a powerful community. Three, it started a tradition of Khatris and Aroras raising their first son as a Sikh. Children of the Sikh son became Sikh and so on. Today, future generations of the same family having similar surnames, say Kohli, are known to the outside world as followers of two religions, Sikhism and Hinduism. Four, it created a divide between Jat and Khatri Sikhs, such that the latter are called “Bhapa”, a term dismissively used by Jats to describe Khatris and Aroras. Five, “since Jat Sikhs consider themselves superior to others, non-Jat Sikhs in the Indian Army never reveal their surnames for fear of being ridiculed in the Sikh community”. Instead they suffix their first names with Singh.”

    1. I think these have to be seen as normal inter-ethnic or inter-racial (steppe-steppe) marriages and not really as inter-religion marriages. Most ‘white’ South Asian guys just happen to be Muslims.

      This is a very different than the grooming and forced conversion racket in North/Central India.

  19. Razib, see if getting Karan Bhasin for a browncast is possible, he writes on Indian economics from a reformist perspective.

  20. it is amazing that all ex economic advisors and rbi governors of india seems to have enormous time on their hands. we see some comment or article by rajan, and many subramanyams.. literally every date..

    1. Brown

      Raghuram Rajan (and Satyajit Das) can yabber away every day and I will listen.

      I made USD 80K betting against the market after reading his 2005 paper. PUT options of less than USD 100 every month even though I dont gamble or do stocks. I worked on Mortgage bond Securities (MBS) so his paper made sense.

      At the Federal Reserve annual Jackson Hole conference in 2005, Rajan warned about the growing risks in the financial system and proposed policies that would reduce such risks. Former U.S. Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers called the warnings “misguided” and Rajan himself a “luddite”
      Incidentally Governor of RBI is just one of the jobs he did. See wiki.

      2005 paper


      1. I think in India u can always bet against the economy. It’s more like head I win, tails u lose thing. Nothing india does economically will suffice economist or ex – governors.

        The issue related to banking surfaced when Rajan himself was the governor. He did zilch about it, and didn’t implement his own sayings when he was in power.

        1. Saurav

          Never really followed Rajans career as RBI governor. Just read the stuff he writes.

          So more a academic/researcher than a implementer.

          For my purposes, that just fine.

          1. Rajan’s acreer as RBI gov does not affect SL’ans , that is fine. After few high profile fiancial misdemanor cases like Mallya and Modi (not NaMo) who fled India after peculating thousands of crores of Rupees, Rajan wanted the Indian banks to take the cudgel on a outstanding loans to Indian banks which by some account run into 3,00,000Crore Rs.
            Whther due to this or not, the powers that be in New Delhi did not like him and he was guven the boot , or he did not get the extension

            Rajan’s idea was that control the inflation, lot of other things will fall in place was not not favoured by GoI

          2. VijayVan
            Rajan’s acreer as RBI gov does not affect SL’ans

            Was mainly interested in pronouncements, warnings on US and World Economy.
            Any linkages I saw to SL would in the passing by myself.

            eg if some action was taken about his warnings* in 2005 the US would have been spared a whole lot of pain.
            At the Federal Reserve annual Jackson Hole conference in 2005, Rajan warned about the growing risks in the financial system and proposed policies that would reduce such risks. Former U.S. Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers called the warnings “misguided” and Rajan himself a “luddite”

            *I was working hands on as Analyst/Coder in the Fixed Income, MBS, CDS and ther Derivatibes space. Second tier Wall Street, eg FGIC, GE Asset management. So his warnings made a lot of sense.

  21. On the topic of languages, I found this clip of nahali (the isolate) on youtube.

    Interestingly, it sounds more like hindi or bhojpuri to me. My parents are tamil and it doesn’t sound like that. I know it could be because of loanwords. I looked up Brahui as well but that actually sounds similar to me, maybe because of certain sounds and the way they emphasize consonants

    1. This is an opportunistic appeal to the Sikh vote in Canada.

      I am a bit out of the loop on these protests. But in general I find Indians tend take any foreign comment too seriously, need to be more sceptical of motives rather than treating them like unbiased observers.

  22. zafar heretic is one more ex muslim on the net. sounds indian, he is ok and signs off with ‘ science hafiz’!!!.

    1. Just played whatever video showed up when I googled his name

      He said “Jai Hind” before science hafiz, def. Indian

  23. “since Jat Sikhs consider themselves superior to others, non-Jat Sikhs in the Indian Army never reveal their surnames for fear of being ridiculed in the Sikh community”. Instead they suffix their first names with Singh.”

    I don’t get it, weren’t all 10 Gurus Khatris? Am I being dumb or is that not a bigger flex?

    1. No idea. It is very weird. Khatris also have a shit ton of acheivements in modern India. Granted, a lot of the modeling and acting stuff is because of nepotism and the industry starting in Lahore and more west eurasian average looks of khatris. But the acheivements in areas of business cannot be ignored. Also military but again, the Sikh ones especially, benefitted from martial race theory and India’s continutation and entrenchment of the colonial order.

    2. “I don’t get it, weren’t all 10 Gurus Khatris? Am I being dumb or is that not a bigger flex?”

      Well 90 percent of Pakistani Muslims descend from Hindus, doesn’t make them jelly with Hindus

      1. I think most of them think they’re descendants of mughals/arabs or whatever else (based on the shit they type online)

        Better analogy would be imagining Arab muslims feeling inferior to subcontinent muslims

  24. I am getting feedback that Pundits are very interested in the ‘ancient’ and ‘classic’ staff (but truthful) related to the Roman Empire and the beginnings of Christianity. We will further explore this topic and especially the roles of Roman-Serbian Emperors (Diocletian, Constantine, Licinius, Julian, Jovian and later Justinian). Licinius lost in a battle with his co-Emperor Constantine, but his later descendants founded the strongest Serbian dynasty which ruled btw 10th and 14th cAC, when Serbia was the strongest kingdom in Europe. We already mentioned the wars btw. Romans and Illyrians which lasted for several hundreds of years. Wiki says that this war finished as:

    “9 AD. After fierce fighting Bato I surrenders to the Romans marking the last Illyrian attempt for independence”

    Actually, it was a settlement that Illyrians get Roman citizenship (available only to the those who lived in the city of Rome) with an obligation to send conscripts to Roman Army. Mainstream books do not say, but this was a moment when Roman republic became the Empire.

    Mindful BP readers will remember from our language discussion that the above term ‘Bato’ (now meaning – ‘a little brother’) previously created a confusion when was taken by Greeks, who assumed that its meaning was a ‘father’ and subsequently in all languages (Latin English, Spanish, etc) was accepted as the ‘father’ although its original Serbian meaning was a ‘brother’.

  25. Razib, Warlock, HMBrough:

    Have you read Lifespan by David Sinclair? Would be interested in your thoughts on anti-aging and the approach recommended by Sinclair. Intermittent Fasting + HIIT is now pretty noncontroversial, but what do you think of supplements to reverse/halt aging? Sinclair recommends NMN+Resevatrol+Metformin and claims to have seen real results himself plus in his Dad. Of course mice studies show significant improvement in aging related conditions but also markers based on this regimen.

    His talk at Google:

    His TED talk in Sydney 4-5 years earlier in which he actually looks older :

    1. No idea. Not very big on anti aging. Datawise metformin has good mortality data for diabetes and so a ton of S Asians end up on it. I don’t rule out many things on face. But I don’t give a ton of credit either. I let data dictate it for stuff like this, unless I am at the forefront of all known research of the field and my guess is worth something.

      Sorry for the lack of info in my response. But I am cautious with such stuff. In general though, intermittent fasting works mostly because of caloric restriction, another thing shown repeatedly to extend life. HIIT is great too because it hits cardio and resistance work at once. But most people cannot do HIIT that need cardio the most. Ths issue is that HIIT is very hard on the joints compared to steady state cardio or even controlled weightlifting. And the heart rates one may need to get up to may preclude less healthy people.

      The ways to live longest is keep body fat low, maximize lean muscle mass naturally (trust me, it is very hard to get “too big,” while lean), sleep enough, get all your vitamins and minerals and enough protein (so lots of high protein foods, veggies, and fruits), stress less, be surrounded by family and have a family if you can (married people are happier), avoid smoking, minimize alcohol, and live with purpose (prevents depression and improves will power).

      1. Thanks warlock. The research on anti-aging is fascinating and reversing/halting aging (or aspects of it) is a question of when not if. The societal implications of that are going to be phenomenal. Combine this with designer babies and AI revolution, the next 50 years will be amazing but also potentially scary.

        On your point about building lean mass and having the right diet, any pointers on how to for a lactovegetarian that is not into weightlifting. Thanks

        1. If you don’t like weighlifting, still do some form of anerobic work. Learn to sprint, either on a bike or running to build lower body. Get into calisthenics. Get really good at push ups, pull ups, and dips at first. You don’t have to lift weights. But that is the most efficient way.

          Low fat milk, greek yogurt, lentils, soy, etc are good options. If you can afford whey, buy it. It takes a lot of thinking out. I don’t personally use it but it makes life easier. Aim for 1.6g/kg of protein. Eat at or slightly above caloric maintainece.

          The key is to find a diet and a set of aerobic and anerobic activities that respectively fulfill your protein+calorie needs and train your heart+big muscle groups.

        2. @thewarlock
          brother, how do I build my entire back muscles at home without pull-up bar/any equipment? Will “Overcoming Isometrics” using a bed sheet be enough?

          1. It won’t be. Even do pull ups on a tree. Fill a bag with heavy rocks and do rows. Buy sand bags. They are pretty cheap at 20lbs a piece. You need some sort of resistance. Towel work is ok for general mobility work. But you need resistance to promote growth.

  26. rajani kanth- i feel he will get 20 seats? and will be a one election wonder. bjp will eventually thank karunanidhi ( a telagu mother tongue guy) for destroying the so called dravidian movement.

    1. So even Karunanidhi isn’t Dravidian enuf ? I mean he even named his son Stalin after the great Tamilizhhhhh king Stalin Stalin Chola

      Oh my Periyar !


    Good thread on the crazy price floor that is the MSP. The license raj must end for real growth to continue. Prelim reforms have been made, but we have to keep going. There will be growing pains. But we pust perserve through short term harms. Modi has one of the strongest popular mandates in Indian history. He was has not wasted it entirely thus far. He must keep going on this front, as well as integrating kashmir, resisting Chinese imperialism, fighting radical islamic terrorism, and pushing for rule of true law, something that begins with a uniform civil code.

    1. There are quite a few celebs who are vocal about Khalistan tbh

      Some like jazzy b outright make songs glorifying Bhindranwale and call him sant ji

      I can understand Sikhs who feel that JSB was heavily targeted by Congress media propaganda, and that many Hindu killings in Punjab by other groups were wrongly blamed on him, after all, victors write history

      Even then, plenty of Sikh leaders who had devoted their life to Sikhi were called enemies and gunned down by JSB and his people.
      One big name I’ve read of in many places is Giani Partap Singh, the first acting Jathedar of the Akal Takht. Partap was 80 when he criticized JSB and his people for stockpiling weapons inside the temple. And just like that, after devoting his entire life to Sikhi, he was gunned down by JSB’s men.

      Don’t get why/how they justify such killings. Are their deaths merely seen as things “for the greater good”? Who exactly was JSB fighting for by readily gunning down apne?

      One thing I feel kinda certain about is that despite 57.7% of Indian Sikhs living in Punjab, 90+% of the hardcore Khalistan supporters are the ones who’ve spent most of their lives in Punjab. Living in diff. parts of India and making new friends would definitely bring about a change of heart in many.

  28. Punjabi farmers are being affected by the bill and they are peacefully protesting it as is their right.

    Drawing equivalence with the Delhi riots is stupid. Folks need to chill on the whole Khalistani bit.

    The way the RW (and the LW) in India gets triggered, we’d be ripe for some nasty psy-ops. Good thing most people are not on Twitter.

    1. I think BJP may just have lost some support in certain places due to how the media and online trolls behaved

      Kangana did a number on herself and the RW with her behaviour

  29. Hate-Filled Hindu: Priti Patel Is Sycophantic to Jews, Psychopathic to Whites

    Gujju bitch Priti Patel.

    No, Priti Patel looks like what she is: a nasty piece of work. As I said in “A Shameless Shabbos-Shiksa,” she’s a high-T fem-pol, that is, a female politician with typically elevated levels of testosterone. She’s aggressive, ambitious and entirely without principle or loyalty to the country of her birth. That makes her an ideal shabbos-shiksa, or gentile servant, for Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI), which the Jewish Chronicle described as “the biggest lobbying group in Westminster” (i.e., British politics). Lord Polak, CFI’s very powerful but little-known chief, steered Patel to a long series of secret meetings with important Israeli politicians. That definite conspiracy was finally exposed in 2017 and Patel lost her job as International Development Secretary in Theresa May’s government of grovelling goys.

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