Open Thread – 12/26/2020 – Brown Pundits

By Razib Khan 67 Comments

Brown Pundit emeritus Zach pointed out on Twitter that BP launched at the end of 2010. A lot has changed. At BP and the world.

There is actually MySQL table data with archives back to 2010. I should resurrect those at some point.

A lot has changed in the last 10 years. The biggest thing is the size of the brown faction on the internet is now huge. About as many Indians read this website as Americans.

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67 Replies to “Open Thread – 12/26/2020 – Brown Pundits”

  1. https://www.orfonline.org/research/islamist-agitation-sculpture-politics-bangladesh/

    There is a lot of focus on Indians, for understandable demographic reasons, but I still feel there is far too little attention given to Bangladesh. I’m getting mixed signals. Some are saying the Islamists are on the rise, others that this is just the death rattle of a defeated movement. I’m getting the feeling that both sides are engaging in quite a bit of wishful thinking.

  2. @Mukunda, @Razib – you guys should get this guy https://twitter.com/porbotialora on your podcast. He is like the weirdest Hindutvawadi you will find. He is a tribal Hindu from Meghalaya (most tribes have become Christian), speaks Bahasa and is weirdly obsessed with TFR. Fascinating character.

    1. Seconded on Porbotialora, would be a very insightful conversation. He is one of the most interesting voices in the broader Hindu twittersphere.

      On top of that, he actually exhibits curiosity towards non-Indian cultures, which many so-called “Internet Hindus” do not, to their own detriment. Being curious about some combination of Chinese, Persian, Arab, Turkic, and SE Asian history at the very least is important for Indian Hindus.

      The trend among the Hindu Right recently to start posting more on Roman, Chinese, and Japanese history is a welcome trend and hope to see more of it.

  3. The brown population on the internet is now humongous. Younger Indians are now running all sort of cancel campaigns like downvoting Amber Heard’s videos on YouTube to downrating Tiktok on Google play store. My favourite one is where a desi zoomcrashed a Kashmiri solidarity meet and played Bholenath songs.

    A lot of Twitter and other folks on popular aggregator sites are waking up to the brown army. They are now called as Rohirrim. Ready to come whenever Gondor calls for aid!!

    The earliest commentator to notice these online tykes challenging the establishment view was Sagarika Ghose. She called them the “Internet Hindus”.

    1. Up/down voting is there so that viewers can express like or dislike for whatever reason. that does not mean cancel culture. Cancel culture is not allowing divergent voices to be heard, with social or economic pressure

        1. You get Youtube for free and Youtube is at liberty to profit from it. If Youtube has broken any terms of user agreement, you are free to take it to task That is capitalism for you.
          So also Facebook, Google and any other service.

  4. “There is actually MySQL table data with archives back to 2010. I should resurrect those at some point.”

    If that includes comments on the WordPress site before the move to Blogger then it might have some pretty embarrassingly naive stuff from me 😛

  5. Are there any well-planned Pre-British cities in South Asia? A couple of Rajasthani cities, Srinagar and Varanasi seem to fit the bill. However this may be wrong as I have only seen a few videos of them.
    Also, Congrats to Razib. Here’s to another 10.

    1. Hyderabad and Warangal were both laid out on a four-quartered plan produced by four avenues extending out from a central crossing-point with a large plaza directly north of that crossing-point.

      1. Are they going to come up with some LatinX equivalent for Desi?

        When I look at such articles, I start to sympathise with why white supremacists might not want these retards in their country.

        Kya ch*tiye hain yaar.

        1. As i have said earlier, all the social envy of the Jews , without the protection of anti-Semitism, is the future of Indian Americans.

          This is what happens when u get too big for ur boots

          1. Saurav,

            I lived for three years in an African country that came *very close* to kicking it out its Indian community in the 1970s, and frankly, given how much of a market-dominant elite they were, I wouldn’t have blamed them. People tend not to like market dominant minorities, and it seldom works out well for them in the long run. As you say, Indians in the United States need to be very careful that we don’t become perceived as a super-elite group and thereby become the targets of social envy.

          2. Why Africans, Indians like Marwaris, Jains etc face social envy from other Indians because of their success, through out India. The current farmer protests going on have 3 targets Modi, Adani, Ambani. No surprises why the latter 2 are being targeted.

            In US, Indians would be better trying to ape Chinese community, then white. US-China relations are always fraught. But then there has been hardly any blowback on Chinese Americans , not even politically.

            Because their woke to success ratio is better than Indian Americans.

    1. The joke’s on us. He can be a glue eating retard and gets paid 1K per month. In a Country like India, that’s like cheat codes for life.

    2. Unbelievable bullshit. If you are prof in a prestigious Uni esp in Sociology, you have a license to spew any bullshit

  6. I see some Indian and Pakistani woke-sters sharing Omar bhai”s recent articles on BP. Seems like there are more (woke) BP lurkers than I first thought.

    No safe space for us.

  7. “The funny part is every other alternate term for Desis in that article is also vociferously contested.
    https://scroll.in/global/975071/is-the-term-desi-offensive-some-south-asian-americans-think-so”
    Not sure if there is a common Indo-European root for the words desh/dutch/deutch…. it does have a very similar identification and connotation for the land and it’s people. Not sure why someone perceives deshi to be demeaning. It has a provincial slant perhaps, but nothing more…. I have seen it become less common in usage. It could have become a pan-South Asian term for old Hindustan…. an ‘inside out term’ rather than being defined by others or part of a regional geography.

    1. Its kind of like “paesano”. Only thing, it could only be used in the most tongue-in-cheek way to refer to indian-americans and metropolitan types, or humorously in the sense we are all “desi breed” not “jersey cow”.

    1. whats wild is that I am even seeing dissenting opinions on /rindia, the bastion of Indian leftists, khalistanis, and radicalislamoapologists. People are pushing back on these protestors, who are largely led by rent seekers and government welfare leeches.

    2. What a lot of the critical commentators (and even some of the BJP’s own supporters, especially NRIs) are loathe to admit that despite its majoratarian outlook the BJP is the political entity that is ideologically closest to the Constitution’s values and vision.

      The old Muslim grandmother’s protesting the CAA in Delhi are very likely to think that Ahmadis should not be allowed to call themselves Muslims. The Jatt Sikh protesters campaigning against the farming liberalisation laws have been undermining the rights of Dalits for decades now. Sundry caste based ‘regional’ parties only have a narrower and sharper majoritarian vision than the BJP to offer.

      Not to mention that the party is actually the most egalitarian one out there, where merit can still trump family.

      1. True. What is sad though is that Congress has that reputation among educated elites and global elite and BJP is mischaracterized as a “far right fascist” party.

  8. https://swarajyamag.com/politics/caa-is-compromised-india-needs-right-to-return-law-for-hindu-sikh-jain-minorities-anywhere

    Article makes a strong case that CAA – which Modi has cucked on and refused to implement due to upcoming Assam polls – is insufficient. India essentially would need a dharmic version of Israel’s “right of return”, but that would require an official change to a de facto Hindu Rashtra, possibly by a new constitution.

    So far, the right in India seems surprisingly timid on this, despite the overheated media campaign among the Western neoliberal media. Perhaps it is precisely because of India’s increasing reliance on the US that Modi+Shah have collectively decided to lay low. If true, then it’s quite sad.

    I personally believe that India needs a state-led conversion campaign, but for that to happen the official rhetoric and the de facto constiutional documents would need to change. That would invite huge opposition from the liberal elite in India and their friends abroad. Would the Indian right have the stomach for that fight?

    1. I personally believe that India needs a state-led conversion campaign, but for that to happen the official rhetoric and the de facto constiutional documents would need to change. That would invite huge opposition from the liberal elite in India and their friends abroad. Would the Indian right have the stomach for that fight?

      even most muslim nations don’t do this. so this seems unlikely

    2. funny that hindu nationalists are dreaming of this solution in 21st century. the window for such a solution, i.e. mass conversion of the population closed in 18th century.

      by 18th century most of india was in hindu/sikh hands and there was indeed a possibility of mass conversion of entire non-hindu population to hinduism, and permanently solve the problem of persistent religious strife in the subcontinent. pre-modern populations lived on malthusian margins, and would have happily traded their nominal religion in exchange for being left alone to till their lands in peace. they were not invested too deeply in their religions anyway, with having to feed themselves being a much greater concern.

      there indeed are examples in history of rulers completely flipping the religion of their subject population entirely. iran was converted from sunni to shia islam by safavids. shia (fatimid) egypt was turned sunni by saladin. closer home, the tough ruler of afghanistan, abdur rahman converted the province of nuristan to islam as late as 1890s, with the connivance of neighboring british.

      but the modern world is different. now religion is a strong marker of identity. having filled his stomach, modern man (and woman) have time on their hands to quarrel over ideologies and identities. so mass conversion of the population is off the table.

      the best possible outcome is that hopefully, in next 100 years or so, religion will cease to be a deciding characteristic in the identity of the individuals, and will be relegated to the background. it will become a trivial individual preference, like someone’s favorite dish or color. till that happens, we are condemned to stew in our own juices.

  9. Modi is compromising with the cultural reforms but staying true to economic ones. He recognizes that market liberalization is the key way for India to move forward. Yes, in the end, this will lead to a continued non-ideal situation for both the dharmic majority of India and the dharmic minorities in other parts of S Asia, but it is necessary for balancing the interests of the nation moving forward. Modi lacks the capital currently to do both. He will buy time and push again near the election.

    1. I agree with you warlock. He seems to be backpedalling on the cultural reforms and becoming more of a vajpayee figure. Basically a neoliberal in a saffron garb. Sad!

    2. Cultural reforms require a large ground movement. Elite pushing will not cut it. They are also typically multi decadal in progression. RJB took about 80 years if you count Nayyar’s action as the political matchstick that brought the issue into administrative focus.

  10. Yeah bro. He delivered on 2 of the 3 core items of the bjp/rss. And modi is one backpedaling here. Lol.

    1. You forgot the most critical item, the 4th item. It is the unsaid item but the second most important, after Kashmir integration of course, the glorious UCC. It shall come in due time. No longer will radical shariah be able to dictate and oppress any part of civil society. Sadly, it will have to wait. Appeasement politics must continue for the time being to move through the next phase of opening markets. Pathetic it has to come to this. But swallowing one’s pride is sometimes necessary to do the most long-term good.

  11. https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/indians-abroad-atmanirbhar-bharat-modi-7125412/

    Sanjaya Basu writes about brain-drain. He references the recent Indian Express deep-dive into CBSE and ISC toppers for class 10 and 12 from years 1995-2015. The deep-dive found that over half no longer even live in India.

    Basu notes that outward remittances for studies in the period 2014-5 to 2019-20 has increased from threefold. These years are *after* the Indian Express deep-dive about CBSE/ISC toppers which only counted those up to 2015. So it seems that brain-drain is increasing.

    Is this a problem? Jagdish Bhagwati certainly thought so, and proposed a brain-drain tax in the 1970s. It was successfully lobbied against and squashed, despite the problem being far smaller an issue back then. Today it would be unthinkable. Both Modi and MMS before him have talked about a ‘brain bank’, a reserve pool of talent that India can draw from. But this data suggests that this is a fantasy, and the outward flow is increasing without a conmitant inward flow to balance it.

    This obviously benefits Western countries, which is why many have become more liberal to work and study migration – the principal streams that Indians come through – while cracking down on refugee migration. The US’ temporary immigration strictness will dissipate with a democrat in office, as they realise the damage that Trump has done. So the gates will once again be re-opened.

    At some level, what individuals do cannot be judged by other people. To sacrifice someone’s personal ambition and welfare on the altar of “the greater good” is unethical and possibly even totalalitarian. But India is sending its finest minds to work in other nations where they reap the fruits of their labour. India pays for their education, often up until undergraduate level, and then they pay out of pocket at exorbitant prices to foreign universities and then end up contributing to those economies. This persistent brain-drain is a form of neo-colonialism. There should at the very least be some kind of compensation to the sending countries.

    1. @principia, a lot of the outward remittance is due to the changes in the US laws regarding the investment green card. The cost of that visa rose from $500,000 to nearly a million in November 2019, leading to a rush of applications.

      Also, regarding studies abroad, Baru’s claim’s seem a bit exaggerated. The number of Indian undergraduate students in the US was around 16,000 in the late 2000s and this had only crept up to 25,000 in 2019.

    2. We have counter examples of JP, KR and China which have had “brain drain” but still achieved tremendous social and economic progress. We all know what happened to the communist bloc which tried to stop “brain drain”. Compared to East Asia, I think the difference in case of India is that there is a tiny slice of population in India, which is competent with Western and east asian levels but a large (~80%) of population is somewhere between sub-saharan and mid-eastern levels. One thing that UPA did was focus on increasing nutrition of pregnant mothers and infants. But as always, the handing out of free/easy money means that most of these gains were flushed down the drain of liquor consumption and other vices. It will be good to get an overlay of MNREGA spending versus state liquor income by district and states. I would bet that there would be high correlation.

  12. https://thepunjabpulse.com/alarming-rise-in-conversion-of-sikhs-to-christianity/

    One reason cited is Sikh non dalits treating dalits badly. The supposedly “caste-less” faith needs to start acting like it. The poor will only stay loyal to the exploitative Jatt Sikh zamindar class for so long. Funnily enough, some of the ethnic chauvanists will view this as a good thing. Many always disregard, ignore, or outright insult these dalits as “fake punjabis” anyway. Punjabiyat to them is Jattness and they cling to Sikhism as away to push a contrast between themselves and Hindu majority India. One good thing is that these conversions will draw the ire of the more egalitarian minded ones. I hope they are in majority and have power. They can bring reform to society.

    1. I mean they are leftists w/ a lot of separatist money at least, some of which can definitely be traced back to terrorist Khalistani and therefore indirect ISI support.

  13. https://twitter.com/AsadRahim/status/1344344934699192320

    “Though our far-right likes to forget, this country was founded only so a minority could breathe free. Chief Justice Jillani’s landmark judgment holds, ‘The very genesis of our country is grounded in the protection of religious rights for all, especially those of minorities.”

    Pakistan was founded “only so a minority could breathe free”. And there is also a far-right in Pakistan.

    Indus People.

      1. I am surprised that a temple existed in KP in the first place

        Seems like Pakistanis didn’t do a thorough job.

  14. https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/china-post-covid19-era-how-will-ccp-tackle-image-problem/#click=https://t.co/3RdGp2T9a5

    “ Indeed, China’s ‘image problem’ might be one evident only to liberal elites around the world and Western governments. For the rest of the world, which in practical terms makes up the greater majority, there is no such problem or at least none that cannot be forgotten or set aside for the right price and for the right incentives. Both of these Beijing is always happy to provide. What is more, there is now a demonstration effect evident on sections of Western elites, especially their corporate entities as well as governments elsewhere that are considered allies of the West, as they try to soft-pedal on taking stronger measures against the Chinese political regime and its economic mercantilism and industrial-scale thievery. “

    1. Come on! It has converted the state funded madarasas to normal government school!!

      Why should a secular government fund madarsas?

      To top it all, these schools were started by the scum Suhrawardy (or was is Fazlul Haq, I don’t remember).

    1. It has to be Sinauli. I do not know of any other necropolis being excavated. A very distant possibility is a stone urn burial in the Deccan.

      The degree of certitude that the tweet is displaying indicates to me that R1a or one of its descendants has been found in a time period. That comprehensively antedates the 3500 ybp chronology.

    1. Aakar Patel says :The only issue on which Hindutva has been consistent is the demand that Muslims give up their mosques, their personal law, their autonomy in Kashmir and now, more recently, the right to marry hindu girls or eat beef.
      This is mixture of lies and truth. No one in India, even the most Hindu rastraist demands or even thinking to demand such a thing. Therev are 1000s of mosques all over India with hundreds added each year, who cares . What BJP or some sections of it are asking for few temples , may be 2 or 3 , that is all
      Personal law- yes , Actually BJP has so far not touched the Muslim personal law or have serious discussions about it.BJP might get serious with if they win the next election with a resounding majority
      Autonomy in Kashmir – that is past, done and dusted, there is nothing to demand now. the now dead Article 370 issue was never about Muslims
      ‘right to marry hindu girls or eat beef. ‘ – even though there is public unease esp in north India around this , it is not BJP’s ploicy or even electoral promise. In many parts of the country, beef is available to muslims or anybody else.
      Truth content is far less than lie content in patel’s words

      Beef and marriage issue – I think BJP is sitting on the wall without actively taking sides

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