Open Thread – 05/08/2021 – Brown Pundits

New Browncast up. It’s about the ’71 genocide (if you haven’t, please subscribe on a podcast app).  I haven’t talked up the Patreon in a while, but all the hosting/editing (we need more than the usual storage since sometimes there are 4-5 podcasts in a month!) is supported by that, so if you like what we’re doing, please chip in. I usually post episodes early for patrons.

My first steppe piece on Indo-Europeans is up at my Substack. It, and the subsequent steppe pieces are going to be paid.

Unherd will be posting a review of The Horde: How the Mongols Changed the World on Monday.

Also, I think it is high time I spotlight some work/projects of BP contributors: The Emissary and Meru Media.

Make sure to follow me on Clubhouse and the Brown Pundits Club. We’ve been doing a lot of impromptu discussions on the club, so once it opens up to Android you’ll want to join.

190 thoughts on “Open Thread – 05/08/2021 – Brown Pundits”

  1. On the vaccine patent issue. Vivek Dehejia argues that it’s a red herring and the real question is scaling up production, which temporarily suspending IP would not affect as much as people would like to think. Maybe. I personally think overly zealous IP laws hamper innovation so I am in favour of suspending the IP, but even if that were to happen, people shouldn’t delude themselves that it will be a magic bullet.

    The EU had a summit yesterday where the noises coming out where decidedly skeptical about suspension of IP, so we’re looking at months of negotiations on this issue at best. At any rate, we should not forget that the US and UK are the ones with de facto export controls. The EU has exported almost half of its vaccines produced. So the ball is in the Angloid corner.

  2. Hindutva’s BIMARU problem – Part 1

    In the absence of coherent and cogent political theories for the BJP’s Bengal debacle, there is an unreserved amount of glee and triumphalism in liberal quarters on behalf of Mamta and her Minions (Moitra, Derek, PK et al). It was quite clear that they had donned on their funeral whites and sombre faces (PK’s leaked clubhouse chat, Mamta’s xenophobic calls) – but quite unexpectedly in the end, the corpse woke up to their own surprise and delight. Exactly like “Shining India” more than 17 years ago, there is now a retconned brainboxing underway. But what if the underlying iceberg is bigger than anyone thinks?

    I had commented in the past that the non-Mughal regions or the earliest Mughal regions in India to break away are/were the highest performing economic powerhouses today. Punjab, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka, Tamilnadu – even the industrial laggard Kerala possesses an HDI that is European-like. Bengal – another early ex-Mughal region to leave the fold – was the preeminent Asian dynamo of its age that caused even Lee Yuan Kew, the Singaporean reformer, to idolise it.

    A Brown Pundit, Querishi, opposed this conjecture stating that the coastal regions are always well developed rather than their inland counterparts. This is clearly an excessive stretch. Chengdu, the IT/electronics giant of China is 1350 kms inland while Patna is barely 600 kms from the sea. Switzerland, which is landlocked, is by far the richest region compared to the sunny South European countries. Another Pundit, Prats, supposed that the Mughal regions suffered the curse of zamindari while the ex-Mughal regions had the ryotwari system implemented that gave land directly to cultivators. Both of these objections are ideal foils – but they do not completely detract/support the original proposition.

    What if there is another societal multi-century phenomenon that is common to all these economic power houses of India?

  3. Hindutva’s BIMARU problem – Part 2

    It is well known and acknowledged in European political and economic theories that the Protestant Reformation had the single greatest impact on that continent. Long run economic success is intimately linked to Protestantism – the more Protestant a region is, the higher per capita income it possesses. The reasons proposed are many, from “work ethic” by Max Weber to “entrepreneurship”, “not believers in pre-destiny” by others. The term WASP uniquely captures this selfsame cultural phenomenon in the New World as well.

    Is there a similar dynamic in the powerhouse regions of India that we know of? Let us examine the evidence – take Karnataka and Tamilnadu – the earliest regions apart from the Nastika philosophies to remove or supplant the Vedas authority with the Agamic code. The Lingayats in Karnataka took the Nayanars’ (63 Saivite saints) teachings further to create a vachana-based social order that defied authority. Unlike Buddhism (Gangetic Reformation), these Saivite philosophies survived all the way into the 20th century as fecund political forces. While the Dravidian movement is infused with caste reformation, they and the Saivite movements have been fellow travelers for a part of the journey (no collaboration on linguistic aspects). Although there is a wider acceptance of the confluences, the Adheenamś (monasteries) have prevented any further digestion.

    Similarly Maharashtra presents a higher and much more radical re-ordering of Hindu religion in the 19th century than any other region of India. Bustling with social and religious bodies – Satya Shodhak Samaj, Prarthana Samaj, Poona Sarvajanik Sabha – many of them led by non-Brahmins – Maharashtra set the tone for the profound changes that would emerge in the Indian independence movement. A lot of the festivals were democratized in public consciousness for the first time without the need for a presiding Brahmin clergy. Many of these were led by Chitpavan Brahmins like Govind Ranade and Savarkar.

    A Hindu revival and reformation singularly marks its presence in most of the economically dynamic regions of India which also happen to be the earliest regions to free themselves or be freed from Mughal rule by Native or European intervention. This is remarkably similar to the Protestant flowering in Europe which not only disordered the polity but commerce as well.

  4. Hindutva’s BIMARU problem – Conclusion

    Coming to the present – we see the remarkable advent of Hindutva, originally from the Maratha strongholds, advance into the Gangetic Belt – the core ex-Mughal area. However only in the coming of Modi and Shah, we have seen a capture of the electoral and public consciousness of the BIMARU/ ex-Mughal regions with remarkable clarity.

    The original Modi-Shah duo, while in Gujarat, were known for their panache and industriousness that was well appreciated within the richer and reformed states. But the electoral triumphs in UP, Bihar and MP are now causing a new association with the backward, stagnating societies of the Gangetic Belt.

    Only a content and prosperous Hindu can be a better Hindu. Only such a body of Hindus can freely dabble in eclectic religious, intellectual and political pursuits. Only such Hindus will receive the admiration and praise of their fellowmen. The Gangetic societies – they have ceased to exhibit these qualities – they are the ritualized, static strongholds of tradition bereft of innovation – who are only Hindu in name – neither the intellectual spirit nor the economic sinews of strength.

    In the Assembly Elections just concluded, Yogi Adityanath was called to campaign in Coimbatore for the BJP. My whatsapp groups were blanketed with memes and posts – about the frivolity of a leader from a backward region coming to a city that was by, magnitudes of order, more urbane, cosmopolitan and representing the dynamism of the New Hindus. Many of these dissenting voices were BJP supporters.

    This brings us to the age-old dichotomy of political science and theories – should politics be normative or descriptive? If we apply this to BJP – then “should Hindutva demand that all Hindus be united?” or “should Hindutva respect the wisdom of the Successful Hindus?”

    After all this is how societies modulate their behaviour – social and economic superiors demand and receive the supplication of their inferiors. The Gangetic societies have wasted away their appetite and capacity for change in the last few centuries – they have fossilized into a steady state of decay – while Hindutva promises to elevate their living standards – it is also being tarred as a BIMARU philosophy by the successful parts of Hindudom – guilt by association.

    I believe this is what happened in Bengal – Mamta successfully invoked the lost glory of a dynamic Bengal. It is reported that in one of the rallies, she asked “Will the taxi-drivers rule us?” It is also happening in the other dynamic regions of India. Nobody wants to be ruled by a social inferior – this is the descriptive reality of politics. Normatively all are supposed to be equal – but it is not like that at all. Hindutva has a BIMARU problem.

    1. +1

      Well put mate, agree with large parts of it. I’d go one further and add that Hindutva has a BJP problem too in that the failures of this government and the strongman in charge will revese whatever successes Hindutva has enjoyed of late. Anecdotally I’m seeing the covid crisis and central incompetence + BIMARU guilt by association as you put it causing many middle class folk to look elsewhere politically – I know their votes don’t count for much yet but their money and support does.

      The buck has to stop somewhere – and at the head of the PM it does. India needs a breather from BJP rule and all the negatives that have come with it. It’ll also allow Hindu movements to develop more organic grassroots regional linkages and re-evaluate it’s bonds with society away from the overtly political.

    2. ugra, good post man. by and large i agree with your basic premise. the regions that have lived longer under a feudal order are the one least developed. feudalism has a way of sapping the vigor and enterprise of a people.

      I will write more later.

  5. Hindutva has a ‘Hindu’ problem. That will it follow the path of its inventors or will it follow the path of its followers.

    1. @Rose
      I am far from an expert but in the main heading it says mitochondrial dna, which we get from mothers (female line) . If that is the case then it makes sense because west eurasian would be more present in the male ancestry (It is in steppe and I guess it should be the same in ASI)

    2. those numbers are low. did not take into account ASI had west eurasian ancestry. i would add 10% to those numbers at least?

      1. @Razib Khan
        Would it be this high for mt dna or am I misinterpreting and they are talking about total ancestry

          1. @Razib on a different note why did the Golden Horde tolerate Christians but kick out the Buddhists?

      2. Even if you add 10%, North Kannadis are very non-West Eurasian(32.3% West Eurasian) and Bengalis are predominantly non-West Eurasian(49.2% West Eurasian) according to Eupedia.

        1. @Rose
          Tribal Indians are around 30% West Eurasian IIRC; North Kannadis — who are a SC group? — should have more. Bengalis East Eurasian has two different source thus its high, however their West Eurasian might be around 55%? India’s average also should be around 50-60% West Eurasian?

        2. Razib said here( ):
          “in the supp of this paper you get a fraction around 55% east eurasian for their bengali (bangladesh) samples.”
          So may be Bengalis(specially Bangladeshis) are predominantly East Eurasian. Onge-fraction is said to be 42% in Bengalis. But I have also seen claims that Bangladeshis/Bengalis have only 30% AASI.

          But what about non-upper caste average South Indians. Are they also predominantly East Eurasian(due to AASI)?

          1. @Rose
            I always interpreted Bengalis(especially Bangladeshis) as 30% AASI, 15% East Asian and 55% West Eurasian. Nonetheless, the precise number is not discernable perhaps due to the enigmatic nature of AASI?

            Same goes with South Indian middle castes. However, I don’t know what you mean by non-upper caste as Reddy’s are considered a forward caste in Andhra. The Dravidians like Reddy or Velama should be 55-60% West Eurasian and 40-45% AASI?

    1. I though Shiva sena would tread a path close to BJP. That is would have happend in bal thackery days. In the aslt 15 years SS is striking a path of it’s own. What do ppl from MH think about SS/BJP

      1. SS hindutva was a sham anyways. It’s good that they have come out in the open. Less division of Hindu votes

  6. It amazes me that so little attention is paid to Pakistan, a country with a higher population than Brazil, constantly being on the brink of insolvency.

    They essentially live hand-to-mouth, based off foreign loans. If the loans would dry up, the country would go bankrupt. Neither the Chinese nor the Americans want to deal with Pakistan but both realise it’s “too big to fail”.

      1. “BJP’s cowardice is also sickening for its supporters.”

        They may be stupid, but they have repeatedly proved that they are not cowards. Their inaction is best explained by the paralysis induced by their plight and inability to penetrate the establishment, something armchair critics don’t consider because they don’t want to. It doesn’t help that the incompetent IT cell is more of a liability than an asset in such trying times.

        The vultures that have started circling India want to feast on all of our deadbodies, not just Modi’s. Many supposedly RW/Hindutva voices, including some of the BP commentators, have started amplifying the vultures.

        1. As i have said earlier, people/communities who don’t vote for BJP expect more from the BJP then the party they vote, Also they think that they know more about the BJP/Hindutva then BJP supporters

          1. You guys need to trust experience over ambition. Deccanis and dravidians have the track record of maintaining and expanding hindu rule. Sooner realized the better.

    1. Bookmark or save the post. We will take a relook at the post on August 1 2021.
      These people need to ‘exposed’. Their so called models and medical education need to be contested. I anticipate that when ‘caught’ red handed and convicted of ‘intellectual dishonesty’ and ‘intellectual prostitution’ these scientists will resort to same political reasoning like’ numbers are fudged’

    2. We deserve to go extinct because we don’t call out this sort of bigotry. [Update: that was a response to Warlock’s comment]

  7. New Balti genetics paper:

    Tracing the Genetic Legacy of the Tibetan Empire in the Balti (Yang et al. 2021)

    The rise and expansion of Tibetan Empire in the 7th to 9th centuries AD affected the course of history across East Eurasia, but the genetic impact of Tibetans on surrounding populations remains undefined. We sequenced 60 genomes for four populations from Pakistan and Tajikistan to explore their demographic history. We showed that the genomes of Balti people from Baltistan comprised 22.6–26% Tibetan ancestry. We inferred a single admixture event and dated it to about 39–21 generations ago, a period that postdated the conquest of Baltistan by the ancient Tibetan Empire. The analyses of mitochondrial DNA, Y, and X chromosome data indicated that both ancient Tibetan males and females were involved in the male-biased dispersal. Given the fact that the Balti people adopted Tibetan language and culture in history, our study suggested the impact of Tibetan Empire on Baltistan involved dominant cultural and minor demic diffusion.

  8. At least two burial urns with complete skeletal fragments found at the Konthagai excavation site on the banks of the River Vaigai. This dates to the 6th century BC. The skeletal remains will be analyzed by a joint Madurai Kamarajar Uni – David Reich Lab team.

    1. Ugra , don’t know whether you pay attention to Tamil phonetics. The Tamil news reader completely drops zh the liquid sound of Tamizh, and replaces with l for zh. Many ‘tamil’ speakers don’t get that liquid . Perhaps 50% don’t get it. Malayalam has that sound and I believe malayalis don’t have a problem. Centuries back Kannada and Telugu had that consonant

      1. kannadigas generally take life easy, so they didnt take trouble continuing with tz sound. also some of them might have got their tongue struck in their throat saying this!!!

        1. Not just Kannadigas, i would say rest of Indians have their tounge stuck at tz

      2. @VijayVan

        The news reader is a “Vandheri” 🙂 I was more concerned with the contents.


    “ With the opening up of vaccines sales for manufacturers, states and private healthcare entities may no longer enjoy the cost effectiveness they enjoyed as a result of economies of scale due to centralised procurement by the Union government. “

    Every state wants de-centralization of the benefits and centralization of blame on to the centre.

  10. I am interested in comparing the Indian and American experience with Covid. For now, I am thinking of Covid skepticism on the American right. Covid became another partisan issue in America, liberals associated with better-safe-than-sorry lockdowns and believing Science; conservatives associated with a desire to get back to normal, and suspicion towards the claims and motives of all authority figures.

    From what I can see of India, there isn’t a major faction of opinion which dares to say that the crisis is exaggerated or nonexistent. Instead, the difference of opinion revolves around whether the BJP should be attacked for negligence in the past or present, or whether the central government is doing its best in a difficult situation. For example, the debate over lockdowns – should the center demand a national lockdown, or is it right to let the states decide…

    1. @mitchell
      There is a debate here about the extent of lockdown necessary. One group is suggesting that full lockdowns are elitist becuase common folk have neither wfh jobs nor digital wallets to shop and do groceries.. And there are alarmists who think we should have been locked down more restrictively and longer ago.

    2. @Mitchell Porter

      There are both civilizational and political differences in the way India has approached Covid.

      Manu Joseph wrote a fine article on it in Livemint. Indians favour informality over a systems approach to pandemics. Informality puts people first, while systems put processes first.

      The political parties in India are not obsessed with principles. They reinvent themselves on the fly. You can see it on BP as well. Three months ago, Numinous posted that India overreacted to Corona – exactly similar to what Rahul Gandhi and Rajiv Bajaj were uttering. Now in May, every Thambi, Digvijay and Hari is saying that the government did not do enough!!

      This is India in a nutshell.

    1. Ignore such articles. They add zero value to you since these stupid media outlets are obsessed with BJP. Policy critics are welcomed but seeing the track record of “The Print” platform, you can ignore such things also.

  11. Though i am overall happy on TN results. Too much resources being spent to keep the AIADMK alive, with negligible ROI.

  12. Good timing for this podcast episode. As the Indian RW grows ever more hateful of Bengal and its people, a reminder of what this hatred can lead to will hopefully have a chilling effect.

    1. Leftists and radical islamists are slaughtering people in cold blood and committing gang rapes like no tomorrow. They are the target of contempt. Not Bengalis as a whole.

    2. BJP workers being killed by TMC goons are also Bengalis. It is also very likely and plausible that the majority of Hindu Bengalis voted for the BJP (I’m sure we will get some good data on this soon). The right doesn’t hate Bengalis – it is a trope used by TMC and the Leftists to beat back a political challenge. Shame on you folks for sowing division like this for your political ends.
      Finally, the BJP hate is led by the old Bengali elite – upper class, upper caste people protecting their privileges against a groundswell of Bahujan (OBC, SC etc) awakening finding a vehicle through the BJP. Bengal is dirt poor and the elite is to blame for digging a leadeing industrial state into the ground. Bengali pride etc are just a way to suppress the aspirations of the poor.Shame on the lefits/seculars for their hypocrisy of protecting old privileges while talking up the cause of the poor. Bengali elite using the North Indian scare tactic and Bengali pride in ways very analogous to how Pakistani elite uses Islam to keep the majority pacified and controlled, with very similar results – elite success, and the remaining 80% forever suppressed.
      Shameful yes, surprising no.

      1. Accurate analysis of BJP electorate. India has seen, and I suppose, the entire world has seen the majority submission by a small minority. Since we are talking about West Bengal, a fun fact I discovered, The Senas who ruled West Bengal from 10th to mid 13th century had “Kannadiga origin”. History repeats itself in first have of 18th century when “Murshid quli Khan” who was a “Kannadiga” by birth established the independent kingdom of Bengal 500 years later. The elite of West Bengal has , not all, but most owe their origin to the South of Vindhyas.

        1. @Shashank:
          Interesting – didn’t know about the Kannadiga origins of the Senas. Most Bhadraloks, especially, Brahmins are UPites who settled in Bengal around 1000AD. Anyways, distant origins don’t matter – they are Bengali as anyone else. What does matter is that this 10-15% elite has used Bengali pride, culture etc to perpetually extend their cultural and economic privileges at the expense of the majority Bahujans – OBCs, SCs of Bengal. Very similar to Muslim Ashraf elites in pre independence India, and the Paki elite even now. The Bahujan have risen with the BJP just being a vehicle – it will be interesting to see how things evolve going forward.
          Bangladesh is lucky to have not had either type of elite – Ashraf, Paki feudal type or Bhadralok (or the Muslim equivalent) in any big numbers.

  13. covid numbers have started to fall in india.
    if 13 crores are vaccinated (at least one dose) and 3 crores are infected and cured, that makes at least 16 crores ‘safe’ on records. as the ‘experts’ say if the number of undetected cases is 4 times, then 13+(3×4)=25 crores are safe.
    this is how the second peak will flatten.
    am i correct?
    further, as some westerners say if we are under reporting by 10 times, we are further safe.

  14. I have a feeling that the Covid pandemic is going to stay around and we’ll play a global game of whack-a-mole as new variants keep arising in different parts of the world.

    Not sure if even a 100% vaccination coverage will help. The immunity will fade over time or some variant will achieve immunity escape.

    1. What does the law say about specialized skillset workers brought to the US temporarily for specific jobs? Regardless paying them $1/hour is just bad.

      It also seems that the lawyer, Sawant, is playing up the caste/Dalit angle. There is on caste angle here – if they are being exploited it is because they are poor – not because of their caste. I am 100% sure that not all of these laborers are Dalits. But caste plays well – and Hindus will be beaten up using caste by all the usual suspects. That’s how it is now in the US.

    2. “The organization has strong ties with Narendra Modi, India’s prime minister, and his ruling Bharatiya Janata Party. Mr. Modi has said that Pramukh Swami Maharaj, the spiritual head who built BAPS into the largest Hindu sect in the United States before dying in 2016, was his mentor. Mr. Modi gave a eulogy at his funeral and laid the foundation stone for a temple that BAPS is building in Abu Dhabi.”

      To me its more intresting is how any Hindu orgs worth its salt, anywHere in the world over, the only ties it has is with BJP/RSS. Even the ones who are non politcal.

      So much for this whole idea of non -poltical, grass root Hindu orgs, non RSS ones taking root, as many here on BP dream of .LOL.

  15. Razib: One of my comments from yesterday seems to be stuck in moderation or spam. Normally I wouldn’t care, but it was a response to Hoju’s tarring of the BJP which deserves a counter 🙂

  16. Covid situation is improving in UP. Vaccines are not available. ​


    Questions for better informed people:

    How do so many rockets get smuggled into Gaza?

    Why did Israel help Azerbaijan even though Turks seem to hate them?

    Will the Israel-UAE-Bahrain love last?

    Why does Gaza look so pretty in pictures even with low per capita gdp while comparable Indian cities are dumps?

    1. @Bhimrao – doesn’t look very pretty to me. This clip doesn’t show signs of being the kind of insufferable unfit-for-human-habitation dumps that Mumbai, Delhi etc. are, but it seems hardly better than some of the towns in our South or North East.

      On a semi-related (only semi because nonurban) note, here are some traditional spaces in Kerala:

      1. What the video shows is actually better than most (not all) cities in UP+Bihar+Jharkhand+Bengal.

        Kerala is beautiful. Chennai sucks (and smells) though.

        1. As someone born and raised in Jamshedpur, a big chunk of the city that is managed by the semi-corporate JUSCO (inheritor of the Tata Company’s city management agency) looks as good or better than any part of India. The rest of the city, which is managed by the municipality, is indeed as dumpy as other places in JH and BR.

      2. Wow, those walkways and such are beautiful. I hope they preserve them. Maybe they can restore some of the older ones that used to exist?

    2. -Will the Israel UAE Baharain love last?
      As long as the common threat of Iran persists, the love will last. @S Qureishi has given a decent answer but missed few important points- Israel Arab relations grew closer due to Gulf war of 1990 because palestine supported ‘Occupation” of Kuwait- which is a Gulf cooperation Council Member. Foreign policy of Arabs is NOW anti palestine and pro israel because these countries don’t want compromised friends to Iran.

      1. ME and North Africa is a fucked up place tbh. Islam keeps bringing more and more peace there.

        Why don’t Arabs disturb the Iranians on the inside? And if they do why are they so unsuccessful?

      2. I was generally talking about the public.. even authoritarian governments have to tow public opinion on issues as like these.. this is why I don’t see any long term acceptance of Israel by Arab states unless public opinion changes.. In fact the previous infographic I posted was from 2018, 2020 polls are out and Arab public opinion on Israel is even worse now, including that in Saudi Arabia

        Also, the Saudi-Iran rivalry only intensified due to the events in 2010’s with the Arab Spring, Syrian civil war, ISIS, Yemen etc. In 2006 for example, Iran still had a generally good perception on the Arab street but later events changed this. However with US abandoning the region and oil becoming less and less relevant, rivalry between Iran and KSA will also subside as the oil rich region of Eastern Saudi Arabia which is Shia dominated loses its value. In all cases, the odd duck out here is Israel, they are losing allies in EU even faster, perhaps that’s why they want to expedite the annexation of Palestine.

          1. When China starts voting for Israel in the UN or when they replace Americans in Israeli weapons import, then maybe.. right now very few countries are backing Israel .. could count them on one hand.

          2. Agree on China. It seemed less worried on the fuck all sitatuion unfolding next door in Afghanistan , y would it worry about Israel-Arab conflicts. It might sell to both sides in future though.

            But i am less sanguine on Arab-Iran conflicts subsiding after US withdrawal. Till the US was in picture one side had disproportionate power, which maintained the balance. Once Arabs realize they are on their own, might lead to unforseen tactics if their is an Iran or Iran-backed attack. US withdrawl would also make Iran somehwat more confident and daring to conduct more such attacks.

            Israel i assume would be fine. As long as there is a Christian right in US, the money taps will stay open, and thats what they are mostly concerned on. Not really on EU type condemantion and resolutions in UN and such. The US withdrawl is also precipating a closer Arab-Israel detente (notwithstanding arab public mood), so its not all bad for them.

    3. >Why does Gaza look so pretty in pictures even with low per capita gdp while comparable Indian cities are dumps
      putting far too much weight in per capita gdp. india isn’t ramshackle because of poverty or graft. low income southeast asia, like yangon, doesn’t even bear comparison. Downtown nairobi, dar es salaam and dakar are all more civilized feeling than the urban core of any indian metro. Indians lack a fundamental air of respect for their surroundings, and are proud of it. There are (were) clean cities in india like trivandrum, but as it gets assimilated into the ethos of core india, good luck sustaining it. Lahore is far cleaner than delhi, and colombo far more advanced than bangalore/chennai.

      1. “Downtown nairobi, dar es salaam and dakar are all more civilized feeling than the urban core of any indian metro.”

        Pulling this out of thin air, have no proof whatsoever: Is it because really rich people still live in these downtowns while in India really rich people don’t live in city centers (sadar)?

        1. Sri Lankans (my classmates) who worked in Africa (Botswana, Malawi and Kenya) used to comment roads, cities and toilets were much cleaner than in Sri Lanka/Colombo.

          I think its the South Asian ethos of not cleaning after oneself (or dirtying ones hands). The younger SL generations seem to be getting past that mind set, but still a lot to be done.

          My opinion is that, heavy fines like in Singapore will be the only way to make a big change.

        2. @bhimrao
          There are very wealthy CBDs in metro india, they just aren’t nearly as impressively maintained as they ought to be. Inside the gates of the residents, sure, very beautiful, but the footpath outside will be shoddy, even if clean. One guess I have is that Indians civic infra tendering largely excludes foreign contractors (both planning and execution). So its been very slow progress in raising standards. The main highways in SL and Pak look absolutely impeccable. Even mumbai-pune has shoddiness if closely inspected. There are trade-offs to indigenisation. Also sense that Indians sort of eschew global dress and hygiene standards. If you do business in Africa the people are groomed so well in relation to their economic standing, down to drivers and service staff, people value elegance. I think this applies to SL and Pakistan too, the standards of dress and hygiene are higher, controlling for income. Overall, Indian populism and its low standards leaches into everything.
          One might advise, no matter how mentally sharp, you’ve got to wake up on time, make your bed, and dress for the job to really reach your potential, the small rituals matter. On a societal level, india needs to put its informal labor in boots and safety gear, promote pride in the trades, build sport fields and parks, enforce civic decorum, and a number of small things to present itself as competent on a societal level.

      2. I think Indian cities will remain garbage dumps for the next two decades. Then suddenly we’ll see a movement to clean up the cities all at once.

        Nothing in India happens in a traditionally chronological fashion. Everything happens at random times. Either there’s a crisis or some leader decided to wake up on the wrong side of the bed one day.

    4. @Bhimrao

      The Gaza rockets are scratched together from sugar, fertilizer and TMT rebar. It is quite openly procured and converted. Israel has been suffering the “humanitarian” demands of EU and the US to let these materials be not controlled. They are not “smuggled”. Our Pulwama bomber also did some medium grade reprocessing – although not at the Gaza levels.

      The Israel-UAE-Bahrain alliance will continue as long as the Turkey-Iran-Qatar grouping lasts. The Saudis are also pulling weight behind UAE. But Turkey is playing both sides – they are allied with KSA in Syria while fighting against Iran/Assad. In Yemen, UAE and Iran are arming Houthis against KSA. This is the ME game of thrones.

      1. I am estimating the cost to build one rocket ~ USD 1K. For proper countries artillery/mortar is cheaper and much better. Would you agree?

        Also very specific use cases, Rockets would be quite useless for Talibans for example. Hence no proliferation.

        I don’t remember reading UAE and Houthis are allies. Aren’t UAE aircraft bombing them?

        1. These Gaza rockets are relevant only due to the size of Israel’s limited geography. For countries like China or India, they will not even make any impact to civilian populations (cities far away from borders).

          UAE is playing a very risky game – Houthis are their insurance against an eventual KSA domination of the peninsula. They have provided medical services and economic assistance to the Houthi regions even as they have done some bombing.

  17. >Will the Israel-UAE-Bahrain love last?

    Acceptance of Israel amongst Gulf Arabs seem to be increasing ”according to several surveys” with Saudi leading the pack. Here is a 2018 graphic where Arabs of different countries were asked if they should normalize relations with Israel.. ( 36% of Saudis replied ”don’t know” to answer a question whether relations with Israel should be normalized or not.. however Israel isn’t popular with rest of the Arab world .. Other surveys like Zogby research found mixed results.. which general Arab acceptance of Israel as a state pre 1967 borders but not in its current shape.

    I think it’s obvious that Israel’s aim is to eventually absorb and annex entire Palestine, expelling the Palestinians from their land. This will keep Arab states away from normalization of ties with Israel.. If the Americans lift their hands off Israel’s shoulder (which could happen as US is increasingly concentrating away from ME towards Asia Pacific) – things could start to get a bit ugly for Israel.

    >Why does Gaza look so pretty in pictures even with low per capita gdp while comparable Indian cities are dumps?

    People throw the trash in the bin and don’t litter. Even Kabul Afghanistan seems cleaner than most big cities in South Asia. I’ve been to Turkey, Azerbaijan, Morocco and GCC countries.. was always surprised by the cleanliness even in the poorer areas of town. I found Istanbul much cleaner that even New York or London. I assume it’s the same for Gaza. The shadier areas of Dubai reminded me of home but then Dubai is majority South Asian and it showed..

    1. New York is very dirty for being a first world city so being cleaner than it isn’t a big surprise.

    1. Basu is a good example of how very smart people – nobody doubts his accomplishments as an economist – can make extremely stupid statements due to cognitive biases and wishful thinking.

  18. a malyali has been killed in israel by the hamas rockets.

    Newly-elected MLA and Nationalist Congress Kerala leader Mani C Kappan condemned the incident.

    In a Facebook post, Kappan, who is representing Pala seat in the Kerala Assembly, said thousands of Keralites working in Israel were living in fear.

    note the word ” thousands”


    Biggest Hindu temple under investigation for forced labour and worse.
    Possible accusations: Visa misuse- religious visit visa for working ; paying less tha minimum wage ; forcible confinement of workers within a compound.

    I hope any charges against right entities are duly established and workers given their due. usually the tempels give big works to building contractors who have a chain for getting people and employing them

    We will see how the case develops and who gets punished ultimately.

  20. “I think this applies to SL and Pakistan too, the standards of dress and hygiene are higher”

    girmit, I see that you have left out Bangladesh, which is as un-Indian/Hindu as Pakistan and SL are. Why do you think Bangladeshi cities and citizens are on the under groomed and unkempt side ? Indonesia and Philippines are two other countries which have a reputation for being unclean.

    I think this has something to do with the nature of city building in these regions. It was mediated strongly by colonial-era mentalities, seeking to carve out enclaves and not emphasizing inclusion. Or could be a simple matter of population density.

    1. @Vikram
      That would explain why the cities of former princely states (Mysore, Thiruvananthapuram etc) are better (dont know much about Rajasthan’s cities)

      1. Vikram’s idea holds merit.

        Jaipur is a very beautiful city almost as clean as Indore but just much more stunning. Most of Kota is good too almost on the same level of Jamshedpur or New Raipur.

        Gaurav Bhai can comment better but I really liked Pune too although I spent most of my time in Pimpri-Chinchwad.

        Bangalore’s traffic sucks and their landlords suck. People are nice though and it is not as trashy as Kolkata or parts of Delhi.

        Kolkata is the all time worst big city in India. Charming to me, but smelly, broken, vain and dysfunctional.

        Kanpur(British) sucks at a whole another level compared to Lucknow(Nawabs).

        1. My view is most of sub continent planned cities (Chandigarh, Islamabad) or older cantonment areas like Pune are cleaner than older ones (Delhi,Karachi, Lahore, Mumbai)

        2. towns of rajasthan are actually pretty clean. my guess is that this not really owing to any better civic sense of its people. we are all really same. the reason is that rajasthan is pretty dry. it rains quite less, and as a result water does not accumulate and stagnate. relatively sparse population also helps.

    2. //I think this has something to do with the nature of city building in these regions. It was mediated strongly by colonial-era mentalities, seeking to carve out enclaves and not emphasizing inclusion//
      I think this is an important observation, but I’ve usually related it to thoughts on participatory government. British India constructed massive cantonments inside cities (as they were meant to rule people not defend them), and public offices are inside compounds with check points, not friendly to a common pedestrian. These are really bad habits for indians to have adopted, the architecture of foreign occupation. This is far from being able to shake hands with the mayor in front of the county courthouse in a participatory democracy. Oh well. Panjim is a nice exception to this.
      I left out bangladesh because I haven’t been there, although my experience in college was that bangladeshi elites were qute polished and ahead of my elite acqaintances in metro india at the time. India’s furiously playing catch-up and that’s probably been the best part of liberalization, the government can’t fully mediate the relationships with the outside world and people are free to engage with and aspire to different lifestyle paradigms. Honestly though, from an outside perspective, Manila and Jakarta are far more tolerable than India. They have horrible congestion no doubt, that really puts the damper on things, but the javanese and balinese are reasonably conscientious. The very resort-oriented parts of philipines are hard for me to generalize about as I realize they may be outliers. I don’t particularly like Manila, and would choose quite a few indian cities above it, but the layout of the commercial district has a logic to it, it seems like a ramshackle north american city with unsolvable congestion, not the complete beehive of chaos we see here. In india, a decent stretch of south mumbai gives one the sense of being in a grand globally important city. Thats about it.

      1. Girmit, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with your comments. The state of Indian cities is one that is close to my heart and it’s only after emigrating did I realise how important the look and feel of a city is to the way that people carry behave and carry themselves. The stunning lack of green spaces and parks is well known, but the sheer lack of aesthetics in the design of residential apartments is mind boggling. Building with flats that sell for some of the most astronomical sums of money by even global standards are nothing more than tall glorified concrete chicken coops. I often wonder what students of architecture study in India, it doesn’t look like there is much effort to combine Indian aesthetics with building construction in any way. Most Indian city roads have also been shorn of most green cover so issues around heat stress are going to get worse in the future. In addition, the frantic construction that always seems to be going on throws up fine dust in the air that when combined with the smog of winter makes me realise what living in London in the 1800’s must have been like with heat and humidity thrown in on top.

        My own city of Mumbai has gone from being bad to worse to unlivable in most parts. The BMC is probably the most corrupt organisation on earth and it absolutely doesn’t suffer from a lack of funds, just the lack of political will to do anything. The charming village-like part of town that I grew up in (Bandra) is now unrecognisable and the city just keeps growing like a concrete behemoth that will probably cross the western ghats and combine with Pune one day.

        The contrast with African and SE asian cities has been pointed out by others which I totally agree with. At the risk of sounding elitist (not my intention at all) I wonder if one of the reasons that people have given up with trying to better their urban surroundings is the constant influx of rural migrants who come with the (lack of) civic sense of the villages which bleeds into the rest of the populace. Other issues like lack of autonomy to cities and inability to use their tax revenue don’t help either.

  21. 1. simple things like clearing rubbish from the streets is missing in bangalore. lately rubbish is being collected from the houses. if only the officials who run the city visit the streets once in a while, things can improve.
    rain water drains is a scam in the city.
    if these two are issues are taken seriously, cities will become clean to a great extent.
    2. @ narasingha deva: ironically, the capital cities of the princely states are not industrial hubs and hence, we do not see the huge population which makes it difficult to maintain the cities. Mysore city, Thiruananthapuram, vadodara, pune cannot be compared to bangalore, kochi, mumbai respectively.
    3. was old hyderbad clean?

    1. Post is more about its use as an insult.

      Most Hindus obviously don’t drink it (just like most Muslims don’t drink camel piss). Some do, and that’s their dumb choice.
      Pretty sure that the person who made the post doesn’t drink it either. Many in the reply section are also making it clear that only a handful of people do it.

      Some people throwing around “cow piss drinker” jibes in the reply section are only proving the post’s point.
      Jibes like these are just cope mechanisms for people who can’t argue facts (Twitter is generally a shitshow with every group typing garbage).
      Seen many “gaumutr” and “gobar bhakt” jibes from “liberals” even when someone raises a valid point in a civil manner.

      1. People need to just go on any Pak dominated forum to see the degree of ethnic hatred towards non Birdari Indians and religious bigotry towards Hindus.

      2. You are drawing false equivalency. Muslims do not venerate the camel or the horse so these types of jibes against them is not a weakness they really care about. Hindus (in the cow belt) do venerate/worship the cow and it’s hard to deny things like these

        or this

        for regular Hindus..

        So people will use it as a general insult. The good comes with the bad. People can call others terrorists, fascists etc why are they sensitive about remarks like piss drinkers.. It’s twitter, it’s even worse than the Youtube comment section. Complaining about these things are just feeding one’s own victim mentality even more.

  22. “Palestinian” is a misnomer. Embrace peace and your arab israeli identity. Muslims Arabs have a higher standard of living and more freedom under Israeli controlled area than despotic terrorist sympathizer governments of “Palestinians.” I hope “Palestinians” make the right choice and put down their arms.

    1. It’s ok, the birdari supremacist ethnonationalist online intelligista will do lots of mental gymnastics and brag about these “alpha” men and talk about how this is revenge for what was done to Muslims by the British and then go talk about how Indians are filthy gang rapist “gangus.”

      There is no moral compass. Hence, the double talk with Kashmir vs. Uyghurs even.

      Brits are idiots for admitting so many radical islamists with backwards views and values into the UK. What morons.

    2. Dozens of child grooming cases have come to court over the past 15 years, involving 100s of men, mostly pakistanis with a sprinking of whites and even occasional Indian name. This has been over dozens of smaller and bigger towns in north east England esp Yorkshire. If the cases which come to court are this much, the actual happening would be 50 times bigger than that. Some police officers have admitted that they were afraid of charges of racism if they take a hardline on these grooming gangs. It is a great moral failure of Britain , both politicians, police and media., to protect it’s children from predators who are even illegal immigrants; no doubt about it. Today is the eid and I see lots of bangladeshis in arab costumes making their trips to mosques or friends

  23. From what I am made to understand, most of these trash came in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Since then, the barriers have been erected much higher. But once you’re citizen, you can bring in more people from your tribal areas through “chain migration”. This is not illegal and it would be illegal to make special provisions for a specific religious and ethnic group, effectively barring them from a privilege that all other citizens have. It may be morally defensible, but it would de facto create two different classes of citizenship, so the hands of the authorities are tied.

    It is a timely reminder that immigration policy is not like tax policy, which can always be changed. Once you have a large group of people inside your borders, you need to accept them for decades, centuries. You don’t get second chances, at least not in a liberal democratic system, and some of us don’t like the atavistic alternatives to the current system, so it is not a bargain we’re willing to make. It’s a complicated situation with no simple answers.

    1. This thread reminded me of this

      “Police tried to enforce immigration raid in Glasgow on Eid. Thousands of local residents blocked street & the raid.

      Tearing up watching this, and remembering direct action of thousands to stop cbsa deportation of Laibar Singh.

      Solidarity is beautiful.
      Solidarity is powerful.”

      How did we Indians become woke before becoming successful? And why aren’t Chinese becoming more woke even when they are becoming successful

      1. Just wait 20 years, the children of deracinated nautanki brahmins of about our age will flood all Indian American discourse with woke-ness.

        1. this hasn’t already happened? Its worth making a hedge that the woke game will be over, in hibernation for another incarnation in 2060

      2. All this drama will only make getting visas for legitimate reasons more difficult for Punjabis and Sikhs.

        I have seen Sikhs pleading their hearts out to immigration officers in Delhi US Consulate and getting their visas rejected. It seems the entire communal energy of the Sikhs is majorly directed towards getting into some western country through any means necessary.

        Whereas if you are going to the USA to study or work via legit means, there are still hoops to jump but the process is pretty much clearly defined.


    200 people forced to work for $1 a day. The workers were lured from India and then locked inside the compound, with guards and 50 cameras watching. This could be the biggest forced labour case in the US for many decades.

    I’ve seen similar stories, but at a much smaller scale, where I live (Northern Europe). Often it is business owners who bring in workers from their homeland, luring them with higher wages, and then forcing them to work very long hours for minimum pay. All done under informally, often with the explicit threat of deportation if they don’t co-operate. Some of the most virulent parasites seek their victims in their own groups.

    1. At least 10X undercounting, most likely much higher. I get predictions wrong all the time but l am almost sure that Yogi will lose in 2024.

      I told you guys weeks ago that situation here has gone completely out of control. This is the price to pay for being the kind of people we are in UP. Also, I am sure nothing will change here either. The wealth of this place will increase via real-estate, consumption, pointless education and such not via innovation or industry.

        1. Compared to a few weeks ago it is much better now. The desperation has died down, people are not scrambling or calling for help. The improvement has largely been due to oxygen availability in hospitals which is much better now. I don’t think SP could have handled it any better, people just didn’t follow guidelines here.

          People I trust had reported one day long wait lines at shamshans in Bithoor and Ayodhya.

          1. Thanks for the update, man.
            Hope some change does come out of all this – its too much to hope for uncles and aunties to change but the school kids will remember this and be hopefully more serious about personal responsibilty in adulthood. And on the bright side, Yogi losing the election should kaisbosh any possibility of him becoming a national leader or (shudder) the next Modi.

          2. Yogi is a reasonably good administrator, has good work ethic and tries to make things work, quite honest too. No one could have controlled this in UP.

            Police patrols, traffic lights, traffic cameras, big hospitals, roads etc. He has tried hard.

      1. Thanks for the update man. If (or rather when) the true death toll fro Covid in India ever does come out it’ll destroy any chances of this BJP government being re-elected unless there’s another Balakot type incident to divert attention. One can expect more suppression of any press or media that tries to reveal the true numbers.

        One hopes that there’s change in people’s behaviours after all this. It’s too much to expect the uncles and aunties to change but one hope the school age kids will remember this and take more personal responsibility in their adult lives. On the bright side, at least Yogi losing in 2024 will decisively kaibosh any possibility of him becoming a national leader or (shudder) the next Modi.

    1. They can’t annex it because if they did they’d have to offer the Arabs there citizenship (including voting rights) lest the apartheid state be even more official.

      1. @Ummon

        Yes, the 2-state + population exchange (not necessarily compulsory) solution seems to be the most viable and logical solution in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the long term from a dispassionate point of view, and Jerusalem should be divided into two or three (the third part as a neutral zone between the two states) in such a solution like the Cold War Berlin and the current Nicosia. But how dispassionate the two sides will be to accept and execute such a solution is debated.

        1. Any state is not viable if –

          It is not contiguous.
          If contiguous, a majority of its borders are with one country.
          If a majority of its population lives within spitting distance of those borders.

          In case, such a country exists after meeting one or more of the above three conditions, it will face tough tests of survival. Pakistan fit all three conditions at independence….hence the breakup.

          Palestine cannot become a reality, these are the laws of geopolitics.

          1. @Ugra

            How will Israel give citizenship and voting rights to so many non-Jews, most of whom are Muslim? Preserving the status quo is an option, but increasingly unviable with the increasing pressures and sanctions on Israel, including from the West.

          2. @Onur Dincer

            If a garden is left untended, it will fall to a natural equilibrium. No effort is needed to return to entropic states. Israel is that default state now while Palestine is a high-energy well requiring constant replenishment.

          3. Israel’s garden is being tended from 5000km away. when the gardener loses interest, the garden will wither away and it’s colonial settlers will be expelled, just like the French in Algeria.

          4. Nah @Qureshi, you sound wishful and upset now.

            Let us discard our biases for a moment and think about it – countries like Azerbaijan, Syria and KSA have got away with worse quite recently. Muslims are riled up because it is convenient and they are a dishonest people.

            To be fair to Israel, imagine if the tables were turned. How would Arabs have treated Jews? And how would have their co-religionists like you reacted? They would have brushed criticism with ‘thats your narrative, I don’t buy it’ and other BS.

            Correct me if I am wrong on any of this. The central point is that Arabs (and muslims in general) are not a smart and productive people, Jews are. You can try to shut me up with GDP number of GCC or show me Turkey’s drones or Pakistan’s agricultural output or Malaysia/UAE’s skylines. But Israel and Jews are just a brighter, better people.

            With Gangu-Paajit sem-2-sem humility to prove to you that I am not insulting ME-Muslims I will admit that Indians are no match for the Chinese either.

            ‘Seek truth from facts’

            Look at CS, EE, ME, AE, Math department of Technion and compare it to KAUST or Sharif University or Qaid-e-Azam University and you will see the piss poor quality of Muslim minds.

          5. @Bhimrao

            I think you are looking at it from an emotional viewpoint not me.

            I am under no illusion that there is ever going to be a two state solution. People say Palestinians don’t want that, I say Israel does not want it and it makes geopolitical sense, Israel knows its a small thin state with a small population with no significant natural resources, so in order to be viable, it needs to expand geographically to secure its core population. It will not be satisfied with just the annexation of Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon are next.

            People thinking that just because GCC governments are warming up to Israel will legitimize it are wrong, when the local public is not. Governments eventually will toe the public line if not today, then in a few years, so all this is a mirage. Israel has no real allies in the region and it’s fast losing support in the Western public, which is why they will scurry to annex as much land as possible before the clock runs out. Their other major problem is demographics, they are barely a majority in Israel+Palestine, they will find it hard to expel the Arabs from the annexed lands, and democracy might just end Israel, so apartheid is the only option. Not every society is India-like, apartheid only ends one way.

            //To be fair to Israel, imagine if the tables were turned. How would Arabs have treated Jews?//

            Jews were genocided in Europe while they generally thrived in Muslim lands and were quite welcomed in the Ottoman empire. In fact the current crisis is in part because of this accepting attitude of Muslims towards Jews.. If there was one religion Islam has been historically tolerant of, it’s actually Judaism because Judaism is just Islam on steroids.

            I also think Jews are smart, but mostly the Ashkenazi ones. The Sephardic ones, are just mediocre. The Ashkenazi settlers are more deracinated and have a more global outlook, they will be the first ones to ditch the sinking ship if it comes to that. I also don’t want to fall into this trap of labeling people smart or dumb (I’m assuming by this you mean the current IQ level of a population group). Europeans were considered dumb for the longest time, they turned it around. (although Euro nats will say whites always had higher IQ). What differentiates civilizations is the ability to inflict violence on others and appropriate resources.. Smartest people don’t always win, but most violent ones generally have more success.

          6. Forget the racialized IQ crap. This is geopolitics plain and simple. Israel has nukes and American support and is just geopolitically too important. It also has a ton of backing from the powerful American Jewish establishment. Palestine is finished. The arab states are becoming more pragmatic and opening ties. The world is recentering around two poles: China and America. Turkey, Iran, Pak Taliban, and Pak military support China. Russia is a wild card. Arab states, Australia, EU, UK, India, Japan, S Korea, and Taiwan are with the US.

          7. Saying this:

            “It will not be satisfied with just the annexation of Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon are next.”

            and this:

            “I think you are looking at it from an emotional viewpoint not me.”

            are mutually exclusive.


            “annexation of Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon are next”

            Yahoodis gave Sinai to Muhammedans in charity. Thoda toh sach bolo.

            “People thinking that just because GCC governments are warming up to Israel will legitimize it are wrong, when the local public is not.”

            Opinions of GCC governments (and all Muslim countries) and their people don’t matter. Maybe Israel is deliberately wasting their time just like India toys with Pakistani diplomats, wannabe NSAs and IR people.

            “Not every society is India-like, apartheid only ends one way.”

            I did not understand the reference about India.

            “Jews were genocided in Europe while they generally thrived in Muslim lands and were quite welcomed in the Ottoman empire. ”

            if Islam != Peace:

            “Europeans were considered dumb for the longest time, they turned it around. ”

            Who considered them dumb? Maar ke rakhi hai duniya ki Europe ne kabse. 380 BC mein Aristotle jaisa paida ho gaya tha unke yahan.

            But letting in infiltrators and refugees does prove they are kind of dumb.

            “What differentiates civilizations is the ability to inflict violence on others and appropriate resources.. Smartest people don’t always win, but most violent ones generally have more success. What differentiates civilizations is the ability to inflict violence on others and appropriate resources.. Smartest people don’t always win, but most violent ones generally have more success.”

            Bacche sochte hain itne reductively on the clean whiteboard of their imagination. But maybe you are right, idk.

          8. Bhimrao

            Me predicting that Israel will grab more land in the future is not me being emotional, it’s me being logical. The more you read about geopolitics, the more you will know that Israel’s current position is untenable and indefensible. One of the reasons why Israel acts aggressive and preempts war rather than wait is because it can easily be overrun, it’s small country. Like any nation state, it will want depth and cushion. And like any nation state, it will want to expand. This is human history, why do you deny it.. humans are not peaceniks. (maybe some cultures are- those get overrun)

            //Who considered them dumb? Maar ke rakhi hai duniya ki Europe ne kabse. 380 BC mein Aristotle jaisa paida ho gaya tha unke yahan.//

            Aristotle was Greek, I am talking about Western Europeans, Franks/ Anglo Saxons /Germans. They have little or no far reaching military or civilizational achievements before 1500.. and were considered dumb, unhygenic, violent & prudish by the Arabs/Turks in the middle ages when they encountered them crusading. If Greeks are so smart, why is it a shithole today? Resting on 2500 year old laurels still.. So I don’t believe there is any inherent group that is bound to remain intelligent or dumb.

            And you can list down every pogrom ever committed against Jews. the biggest evidence of Jews being treated well in Muslim lands vs Europe is in the IQ of European Jews vs Oriental. The dumb ones got culled in Europe, while they thrived in the MENA.

          9. @Qureshi
            I really don’t know enough to contribute meaningfully anymore.

            What was the reference about India?

            Either ways, bahut zyada maar padne waali hai hamas ko.


            On a different tangent – Greeks are fucking great at applied and pure math, maybe its their schooling, maybe it is societal pressure, maybe something else. Check this guy out:


            Anecdotally speaking cream of academy (in my field) is full of Greeks. Hardly any Turks though.

        2. Don’t wanna start some IQ debate but there is a clear difference between the jewish groups with regards to IQ.. the Ashkenzis are theorized to have higher IQ precisely because they were so persecuted in Europe that only the intelligent ones bred.. a form of artificial selection.. ( I hazard a guess that the same applies to American blacks w.r.t. physical ability due to slavery (although I am not well read on this particular group)

          Also, the thing is, in the future: Israel may not be important geopolitically to the US or to China or even to Europe. And just putting this fanciful idea aside that Israel would be able to expel half its population without issue, I don’t see how Egypt, Syria or Jordan are going to be taking in millions of Palestinian refugees? They might just pull a Turkey and direct them towards Europe, that would be hilarious to see how Europeans deal with it.

          1. I don’t want to get into this stuff. But Ashkanazis as a group dwarf all others in human intellectual acheivement this past century. So yes, I agree. The cause is uncertain. Many groups have been persecuted. All we have are current data that support their high IQs.

            And African American greater observed on average athletic potential in explosive sports is highly linked to the typical West African body frame (strong posterior chain, long legs relative to torso) and muscle composition (more fast twitch fiber), including relative greater prevalence of homozygosity of ACTN3 in West Africa peoples.
            Also there is an inverse corelation between CAG repeat (forget if this is exact sequence) length as a post translational mod on the androgen receptor. West African people have fewer repeats on average and despite that still slightly higher testosterone levels compared to Whites, thus a more favorable hormonal profile, on average, again- favoring more lean tissue and less body fat on average.

            Slavery and its impact don’t appear to be the main factors. Go to any beach in Ivory Coast or Ghana. Or go to Igbo dominated areas in Nigeria. The average baseline muscularity of people is awe inspiring.

          2. I didn’t even say IQ or racism. Just look at the end result of Israeli industry and academia and compare it with Arabs, north Africa, Iran and Turkey. Israelis come up with better ideas, funding, and execution over and over again.

            Look at how China handled the epidemic and how India handles it. The results speak for themselves.

          3. It says oriental jews are 14 points lower. Most put Ashkenazi average at 115. 101 for oriental jews is greater than the numbers for pretty much entire Islamic world.
            But again IQ is not the whole story. Flynn effect is a thing. And it is an incomplete measure. But we know ot correlates well as a predictor of many life outcomes. Using it in this civilizational context is dumb. Geopolitics matters most. And Israel is in a better spot than “palestine” is. I think Jordan is where many violent radical “palestinians” may end up.

          4. For that study, the main logic here is money lending promotes high IQ in a population. By that logic banias and khatris should be geniuses…

            I think not. We don’t know. That’s the real answer. But we do know Ashkanazis have acheived more than much of humanity put together, at least intellectually, in the past 100 years.

      2. “Palestine” requires more support to “exist” than Israel, living on subsidies of theocracies and foolish leftists. The artificial state will soon by absorbed and Israel will be united. The barbarism of radical islamic terror will no longer have leftist cover as Israel quells it initially with force but with all of the freedoms and progressiveness of a democratic state thereafter. This is the tough phase, when terrorists need to be dealt with. A heavy hand must be used.

        Thankfully, the current regime is not bending to leftist pressure. The old democratic guard, which the sometimes synchophant Biden tends to embody, is not caving to the radical leftist compact of AOC and company.


    The Jewish people have historically suffered, often in silence. All they want is to have their ancestral homeland in peace. They have historically, not since Biblical times, NOT taken up arms to defend themselves against violent forces. They have a right to defend themselves against terror. I stand in solidarity with them and the peaceful minded Muslim arabs of Israel against the radical islamist forces.

  26. @S Qureishi
    You’re forgetting that Israel has nukes. Or were you talking about the settlements in west bank instead of whole of israel with your algeria analogy (if yes, i also think this would be the case if they lose US support (seems unlikely to me, at most it would become a partisan issue))

    1. He is in the “one ummah” dream land like most of Pak. Palestine is finished. The radicals will either be killed or forced to go as “refugees” to other places, if they want continue the violence. The Republicans are steadfast with Israel and establishment democrats are as well. Leftists are just a vocal and annoying minority. Americans stand with Israel, as a whole.

    2. Nukes don’t prevent disintegration from within. SU had the largest nuclear stockpile, it still disintegrated. I don’t think Israel is going away anytime soon, it maybe decades.. but they have no allies in the neighborhood, their western patrons are slowly losing interest and their global support is waning. They had more support back in 1948 or 1967 or 1990 than they do today. They also have a demographics problem, and their country is geographically indefensible in its current state, (which is why their military doctine is aggressive rather than defensive).

      1. Israel is not USSR lmfao. Disintegration from within? Are you serious? The levantine states around it all have a greater chance of falling apart with the amout of division radicals have sowed. Israel will directly administer more and more land and those who seek violence over peace will either be killed or forced to move.

  27. And Q is being funny about Ashkanazis again. Some brainwashed leftists pay lip service to pro two state or talk “apartheid” nonsense. But all the money to Israel is from them and birth rates are highest among conservative jews. Papa Sheldon is one after all. And the American Jewish diaspora is loyal. I know a few myself who grew up entirely in America but joined the IDF after birth right. No other pro freedom entity has such loyalty.

    And Israel is ready for violence, another one of Q’s odd points. That part is moot. Israel will defend itself at all costs.

  28. Quereshi is right on Israel, for the most part. One area where I disagree is his view that Israel’s utility will have any bearing on the support it can command from the West. Israel is already a burden on the US – several US generals have said as much over the past decade:

    The reason why Israel can get such massive support – despite essentially being an apartheid state á la South Africa in the 1980s – is thanks to the Israel lobby. If the Afrikaaners had even 10% of the resources and positive media spin, then Mandela would have died in prison and Apartheid would never have ended.

    So, I don’t think Israel’s relative utility here is the main binding constraint. But there is no question that a large-scale invasion of Iran – which Israel would argue for if all other options fail in preventing its regional rival from getting nukes – is out of the cards. So Israel gets a lot, but it doesn’t get everything.

  29. IQ differences don’t necessarily imply culling. My gosh Q. Don’t be so fallacious. Differential jobs can cause selection, as can mericratuc exam emphasis like is hypothesized by Chinese. Reality is that we don’t know. We just know jews over acheive in modern era and did in fact face tons of discrimination everywhere throughout history.

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