Will Indians become white, will India become Western?

I was pondering over this last evening since the rate of Westernisation in India is somewhat mind-boggling. Alia Bhatt’s dress to the filmfare awards is what any Hollywood siren would happily wear.  I can’t imagine a Pakistani actress wearing that in the next decade, for better or for worse.

I know it sounds hideously hypocritical but at the same time I don’t know how much would I want the Turanic triangle (AfPak+Iran) to really transform in a cultural space. While I would like to see Islam’s reform I wouldn’t want to see the base cultures become Western.

I also do not think that IndoPak will ever be a thing again; Pakistan is sailing out of South Asia and Indians have let them do so. It’s a mistake since our natural ties are within the geographic range but it’s not something I especially care about. If the Brits were able to shatter South Asia so easily perhaps it was never a real construct..

This Alia Bhatt-Ranbir Kapoor Filmfare Moment Made Neetu Kapoor 'Forget Stress'

Considering that the West is becoming more pagan and spiritual and India is becoming more Abrahamic (Hindutva is like the Bhakti movement, the Abrahamification of Hinduism).

I notice that Westerners now hold India to the same standards and don’t treat it as some “exotic” part of the world.

Contrast this to the Jewish-American travelloger, Drew Binksy:

He was the same chap who called China and India chaotic and his analogy of India to the EU was interesting..

North vs. South INDIA… Two Different Worlds

On my last trip to India, I visited only the North and that's what I thought all of India was like. This trip, I did only the South and it's completely opposite from the North in every way imaginable!The best way to think about India is like Europe. When you move from one Indian state to the next — the culture, cuisine, language and weather all change in the same way that you'd experience by hopping European countries. Have you ever been to India? What do you think are the biggest differences between the North and the South? Please share your thoughts below!Follow Drew Binsky for daily travel videos. Instagram @drewbinsky. Thank you Michael (IG @affinityadventure) for the edits!

Posted by Drew Binsky on Friday, January 25, 2019

North vs. South INDIA… Two Different Worlds

On my last trip to India, I visited only the North and that’s what I thought all of India was like. 

This trip, I did only the South and it’s completely opposite from the North in every way imaginable!

The best way to think about India is like Europe. When you move from one Indian state to the next — the culture, cuisine, language and weather all change in the same way that you’d experience by hopping European countries.

This is just idle speculation but an interesting contrast in how different Pakistanis and Indians think. I have two good friends, one is Indian and the other is Pakistani (we all know each other).

Both had dinners last night but I was invited to the Pakistani one and not the Indian one (I didn’t go to either but the gym!). I told Vidhi that this was a reflection of the Pakistani generosity and extroversion.

As an aside it’s an old trope in Pakistan that we “Muslims” are more generous, glamorous and sociable than them “Hindus”; so much of Pakistani identity is built on comparison to India, what we are and what they are not it’s rather funny.

Vidhi pointed out that actually I was misinterpreting it entirely. That in fact it was a sign of respect that I wasn’t invited to a random get-together but that my time was being respected.

I had never considered that perspective in all my life. I’ve noticed that through my marriage to Vidhi; it ends up that I have the Eastern/traditional perspectives.

Pakistan & Iran will be very Eastern cultures because Islam will inhibit wholesale transformation (Tehran may have wild parties but it obscures the rest of the country).

I don’t know if that’s a good thing or bad thing but in the coming generations the Turanic triangle will be this immensely exotic space, thanks in part to Islam, whereas India will be fairly familiar since Macaulay’s children will glide between both worlds and perhaps even connect them.

For some reason the Japanese haven’t become “white” as they have become Western but in many ways whiteness transcends race. It’s co-terminous with the West and Western identification.

If I had to speculate in a couple of generations the “brown” minorities in the West will remain predominantly Muslim. We could be in the middle of a discrete Northern vs. Southern bloc (SinoIslam & Aframs). The profound victimhood of African Americans seems to be THE original sin of the United States (it’s strange that Native Americans don’t be a central issue since it seems there aren’t as many and they overlap with white society to a much greater extent) which will fuel these fissures.

I first saw the picture of PM Arden in a hijab on a friend’s insta-story. I thought she was some especially fair & rather attractive Aunty/cousin of his (he’s a Punjabi Khan from Karachi, so might even be Pathan). I didn’t code her as white until clocking that this was the PM when it started cropping up in social media much later.

Kirk Hargreaves’ picture of Jacinda Ardern. ‘A blend of different religions as well as her incredible body language.’

Whiteness is a state of mind as much as it is a colour.

Related: Pakistan in Pieces, Part 1

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37 Replies to “Will Indians become white, will India become Western?”

  1. I used to think super-erroneously and stupidly earlier that Indian religions are “pagan” but the accurate way most likely is to describe them is as “super-religions”, likely 10 times more religion-like than Islam, Christianity and Judaism. There is that extreme sense of dislike towards the world that is not real (this one; from their viewpoint) and this does not seem to me as very pagan-like. And yes, even historical lower-caste Hindus were probably not completely pagan-like.

    Now, as you said, India is likely becoming very Western-like in every manner of thought and belief (action and practice may soon begin to follow too) and this process is probably irreversible without some kind of miracle like the sudden rise of the population of orthodox and devout Brahmins and other similar Hindus to 50-60% or so or things like sudden destruction of the world. These processes will I believe be most traumatic to the devout among the Brahmins (who are as a group extremely diverse in their beliefs and to some extent even practices likely) and other generally devout Hindus. But make no mistake, these groups will continue to exist most certainly and they will not at all go extinct.

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    1. Santosh, what is Pagan? What is religion? What is spirituality?

      I would define religion as seeking to transcend all theisms or seeking atheism. Or to search for the truth wherever it leads. I think religion starts with Samadhi. Everything else (Sadhana) is pre religion.

      “There is that extreme sense of dislike towards the world that is not real (this one; from their viewpoint)”

      Why do you see dislike? Is this what you consider Vairagya (detachment) to be?

      I don’t think Indians are becoming westernized as much as the whole world is becoming cosmopolitan and globalized. America is rapidly becoming more eastern philosophy oriented too.

      How do you define “Brahmin”? Do you define it the way Buddha defined it? The way Krishna defined it? For me a Brahmin is someone who is Satwa Guna predominant. Someone who is in 24 hour meditation.

      Most Brahmins alive are no longer Indians. Brahmins are taking birth all over the world.

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      1. Thank you very much for your comment, AnAn! By the word “pagan”, I had in mind some kind of a meaning like ‘irreligious’ or ‘non-religious’, AnAn. I don’t know if attribution of that kind of a meaning to the word pagan is entirely or even fundamentally correct.

        I really don’t know much about the difference between religion and spirituality except to conjecture based on instinct and experience that in traditional Hinduism they are probably one and the same. I would think religion in the most general is more like seeking to break away from this world/state aspiring to be in a higher, more perfect world/state. But lol AnAn, knowledgeable scholars – both religious and secular – who happen to be by-chance reading your and my naive and lay comments are bound to cringe extremely hard!

        Yes AnAn, that is probably detachment, as put traditionally perhaps. But then, I also think that detachment is more of a recommendation to be followed in practice rather than the thought that led to it which is like a dislike for this world. But then, I am not at all an expert and people should not listen to me at all. I just waste my time like all weaklings and fallen people do.

        I don’t know about that AnAn. It seems all religion will ultimately fall to materialism (until the Krita Yuga begins again perhaps) and there may probably be no pure Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. surviving in the future. They may all be progressively diluted, more and more.

        Most of the times I use the word “Brahmin”, it refers to a particular endogamous caste or group of sub-castes who traditionally were the major priestly (and also intellectual) groups within Hinduism.

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        1. Disclaimer – I will only speak from the gaze of hinduism and will judge other faiths based on that to the fullest extent. The word “religion” is not equal to “dharma”. Technically hinduism is not a religion in the abrahimic/pagan sense (pagans some similarities). But in the modern world, it has to be associated with the term – religion for debates to flow to and fro. Long story cut short, in hinduism, the main goal is proper dharma depending on your birth and rooted in karmic baggage, good or bad and the consequent births because of that. Karma drives life and deeds. Hinduism is based on Karma, irrespective of whether one is aware or not. Applies to both Humans and other living beings. So it began with karma and ends with karma, but mostly its cyclical cause breaking off from karma takes a tremendous amount of understanding, application and practice – different forms of yoga, with bhakti and karma yoga being the most prominent in this current societal structure. Abrahimic religions you know there is heaven where your distinct identity still remains. In hinduism, there are multiverses wherever your karma might take you. For argument’s sake the closest similarity to heaven is swarga where Indra resides in Hinduism, but that is only one level up; and is not regarded as a high quality birth for the Adhyatmik seeker because sensitivity towards base pleasures are manifold higher. Their nervous systems are tuned differently. The ultimate truth in hinduism is that all will merge into brahman eventually (but not all will realize brahman). So from my gaze, allah, god, yahweh, pagan gods are not equal to brahman. They may exist or not exist. They may be lower demigods, asuras, devtas, higher devtas etc but not brahman. According to me, the texts that describe them are more in line with asuras, demigods, devtas, yakshas, gandharvas because of a high amount of reward structure pertaining to base pleasures.

          As far spirituality goes, don’t confuse spirituality in abrahimic religions with “Adhyatmika”. A spiritual muslim or christian or jewish is not “Adhyatmik” by internal nature. While on the surface it might seem that all races have different gods and belief in a higher power equates to the same level of spirituality, but no its not. Only sanatana dharma and its derivatives, buddhism, jainism etc have Adhyatmika in them. In very simple terms, two main pointers where you can differentiate between spirituality between religions are – 1.) there is infinite distance between you and god in abrahimic religions. Hinduism there is no god, but brahman which pervades everything. So brahman is what we are eventually, but christians or muslims or jews cannot be god. They are separate from god. 2.) Absence of modes knowing the “I” in abrahimic religions. Look there were ways before during pre-christian and islamic times, but not as much as of a higher standard like that of hinduism. Because India is still a living civilization those modes till exist (but most likely will disappear over time).

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          1. Yes DM, this extreme asceticism and rejection of the highest abodes of all the other religions to affirm the existence of even higher abodes and finally making attempts to merge with only the Highest of all the high is what I was having in mind too, as characteristics of Hinduism (and Buddhism and Jainism) (basis for my super-awkward term “super-religions” in fact). But also one common feature that unites Hindus with Muslims, Christians, etc. and other non-Indian-origin religions is that they are indeed religions and fundamentally they believe there is more to life than life on earth. That is to say, amoralism, social liberalism, materialism, etc. are all completely anathema to all the above-mentioned traditions and so extremely base to be even worthy of mention.

            (Not directly related to the topic but I feel that the western religions/dharmic paths mainly choose two ways or mixtures of them to tackle these: a hypocritical route that consigns people adhering to stuff like liberalism, materialism, nihilism, amoralism, etc. to hell (western religions)/ a mental conception of complete-wastage-of-this-precious-human-life-and-some-more-lives-in-the-future and subsequent pity (Indian ways) without committing violence in the physical world or a non-hypocritical route that actively ensures everyone is having the same opportunities, instruments and thought-processes as the religious person, and at least theoretically does not hesitate to commit violence to achieve this end. I feel that the historical tendency (which is the framework that I predominantly tend to view things as, being a super-westernised person in thought) has been for societies to become more and more hypocritical, tolerating deviation and not actively attempting to eliminating it. But then I also strongly suspect that all of these things come and go in cycles. (I tend to step out of everything that I set foot on and objectify it because it is fear that fundamentally rules my soul and there is also something non-human about me in that my wretched inclinations are always to be a very solitary animal as opposed to social and social is what humans have always been and human progress (conceiving of this as ‘progress’ because my modes of thinking are all highly westernised) is all because.))

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  2. Oh it seems Hindutva (or at least some important schools within it) is construed as some super-Westernised entity by some of the super-orthodox Hindus (who I define as giving utmost importance to tradition and reception of knowledge through disciplic succession from well-established schools as opposed to reform/change through personal/institutional textual reinterpretation, etc. and place the Agama (Shaiva, Shakta, Vaishnava Tantras, etc.) and the Nigama (Vedas) (and also Smritis) on equal footing (unlike Arya Samaj, for example)). It really seems to me to be true – their conception – at least to some extent.

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    1. Santosh, can you define what “Hindutva” means to you?

      Saying “Hindutva” is like saying carbon based life forms. The term is so broad and general to be almost completely useless.

      This said, I am being told that a minority of “Hindutva” people are heavily Abrahamized and westernized.

      “super-orthodox Hindus (who I define as giving utmost importance to tradition and reception of knowledge through disciplic succession from well-established schools as opposed to reform/change through personal/institutional textual reinterpretation, etc. and place the Agama (Shaiva, Shakta, Vaishnava Tantras, etc.) and the Nigama (Vedas) (and also Smritis) on equal footing (unlike Arya Samaj, for example)). ”

      Santosh, this is unclear. Where do you place millions of orthodox Hindu devotees of Shirdi Sai Baba? Where do you place millions of muslim devotees of Shirdi Sai Baba?

      Shirdi Sai Baba is revered by many of the most respected ancient paramparas and sampradayas and lineages.

      In India everything is heavily muddled, fluid and inter-connected.

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      1. Yes AnAn, Hindutva is more unclear to me than all the other familiar terms given the fact that I’m not a very knowledgeable person in this field, and the reason is that it is quite a new thing in practice (or perhaps only a new thing in my personal experience). But I would say Hindutva is characterised by a certain devotion to the Constitution of India, a certain sense of yearning for uniform civil codes, separation of Hindu church from the (Hindu/)Indian polity, etc. all of which do not seem to be traditionally Hindu ideas. The most traditional and even moderately traditional Hindus are likely not naturally inclined towards uniform codes and stuff and retain traditional ideas about caste-based inclinations, beliefs about “things-appropriate-and-inappropriate-for-our-caste” (excepting those of economic importance like education and employment probably; in the domains of culture and religion, Hindus still hold all the above types of beliefs and practices), and such things. In the above I am not making any comments about the provisions in the Constitution as I am not at all well-versed in that topic. Just wondering about Hindutva thought processes. Of course, it is very probable that I have just committed such an extraordinary – but-also-one-that-would-be-very-typical-of-me – blunder due to my very arrogant and superficial thinking to link the two things (traditional Hindu ideas and practices related to caste and the uniform/non-uniform civil codes) like that.

        And yes AnAn, Smarta Brahmins may be the most traumatised of all the old priestly groups of the world. Some Maharashtrian Smarta and Telugu Smarta Brahmins may believe Shirdi Sai Baba to be divine (some Telugu Brahmins have also initially popularised Shirdi Sai Baba worship among non-Brahmin Telugu people who now routinely name their children after Sai Baba) but there may also be some who simply cannot accept the divinity of Shirdi Sai Baba. (If a bonafide disciplic succession is there, then it might be fine as far as even the most orthodox of Hindus are concerned which Shirdi Sai Baba indeed seems to have with some connection to Dattatreya but then why did all the opposition to Sai Baba worship come about from the Dvaraka Math in the first place? Things are not entirely clear to me regarding this question at all.)

        I agree with your the last point. Quite muddled (though, importantly, not as muddled as we might think) it is indeed, though people like me would like it to behave less messily and more orderly lol.

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        1. ” Just wondering about Hindutva thought processes.”

          There are many different Hindutva thought processes.

          Hindu + Tattva = Hindutva. Or the quality of Hinduism.

          “The most traditional and even moderately traditional Hindus are likely not naturally inclined towards uniform codes and stuff and retain traditional ideas about caste-based inclinations, beliefs about “things-appropriate-and-inappropriate-for-our-caste””

          There is an affinity for ones Jati and an affinity for one’s Varna. These are two separate things.

          Lebron James has a very specific fitness regiment. In this way many paramparas or lineages have their own very specific fitness regiment. But they don’t say that their fitness regiment is optimal for others; and for good reason. What is best for one subgroup or person is not optimal for others.

          The reason for specific fitness regiments relate to Chitta Shuddhi (Yogash Chitta Vritti Norodhah or mental health), Nadi Shuddhi (correlated with mental health, intelligence, physical health). Bahu Balam (physical health), Buddhi balam (intelligence).

          These enable a spiritual seeker to fall into meditation and ultimately samadhi more easily; it is believed.

          The fitness regiments are pre religion. Samadhi [deep meditation or conciousness to use Sam Hariss’ terminology] is religion.

          The fitness regiments are neither religion nor the goal; but enable other things to happen. This is why exceptional people are free to break all regiments or rules (Sanyasis, Sadhus, Avadhutas, etc.)

          Strangely enough the above is common with many in all 10 Darshanas. Although some might not use the exact same terms to express it.

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          1. AnAn, as Kashcit or DM once mentioned, the word Hindutva is made up of Hindu, ‘Hindu’ and the suffix -tva, ‘-ness’, Hindutva just means ‘Hinduness’ or ‘the quality of being Hindu’. Not to say that your point is gone. Etymologically at least this is a very abstract term lol. But on a more historical level, this word is used to refer to a particular movement within Hinduism that originated in pre-Independence Maharashtra (I am not aware of the particulars). It is what I refer to too, when I use that word.

            I don’t really talk too much about Varna, AnAn, as it is a religious concept and as I mostly tend to talk about secular stuff for which caste is the most relevant. But I agree that they are two separate things and I also see your concept about people having two affiliations – not always concordant with each other as we generally tend to assume – one in caste and one in Varna.

            I don’t understand much of what you wrote next – because I am currently not even in my earlier devotional-dualist state. I have become kinda non-religious and secular and I will try to understand properly what you wrote when the Lord shows mercy on me again.

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          2. Santosh, can you research Tattva? I think to understand Tattva one has to meditate.

            tva = a reference to tattva.

            It would take a volume of books to describe the many different ways different schools inside the 10 darshanas describe Tattvas. In fact Tattva is one of the main ways I try to interpret any understand different Sampradayas and texts.

            For simplicity let me describe how many but not all schools inside Uttara Mimaamsa (Vedanta) describe the 25 Tattvas.

            Each of the five elements have 5 sub-elements. 5*5 = 25 Tattvas.

            Think of it as a five by five matrix with the five collumns and five rows being:
            —ether or Akaasha or Dyeus (Zeus)
            —Vayu or Prana or energy
            —Agni or fire
            —Varuna or Jala or liquid
            —Prithvi or earth or solid

            Ether by Ether is the mysterious 25th element
            Ether by Agni is Buddhi or intelligence
            Ether by Vayu is manas or mind
            Ether by Varuna or liquid is Chitta or subconscious
            Ether by earth or solid is Ahamkara or ego
            Vayu by Ether is Vyana vayu or aura
            There are 19 others!

            Each school describes the Tattvas in a particular way and they differ from each other.

            Each person or group can be described in terms of their Tattvas. There is such a thing as America Tattva. India Tattva. Iraqi Tattva. There is such a think as Hindu + Tattva or Hinduttva.

            ++++++++++++++++++++++

            One reason I love Trika Kashmiri Shaivism is that I love their 36 Tattvas!

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            “a particular movement within Hinduism that originated in pre-Independence Maharashtra (I am not aware of the particulars). It is what I refer to too, when I use that word.”

            Hmm. Do you really think that describes Hindutva today?

            ++++++++++++++++++++

            “I have become kinda non-religious and secular”

            I don’t understand what “secular” means.

            My understanding of religion is seeking the truth without gross surface level thoughts and concepts.

            My understanding of science is seeking the truth with gross surface level thoughts and concepts.

            Both religion and science search for the truth and share a commonality of spirit.

            How does secularism fit in with this?

            How is secularism related to “love” or “sweetness” or “compassion”?

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          3. No no AnAn, I said I became secular not secularist. I don’t really know what my political beliefs are – I’m probably some kind of status-quo-ist or something like that about most issues because I’m incredibly uncreative, lethargic, self-centred and also sufficiently conservative funnily. Secular means non-religious, that’s all. Non-religious for me means not performing daily worship properly, not remembering God’s names periodically and not singing and listening to devotional songs, not praying wholeheartedly, doubting God, tending to procrastinate, becoming so uninhibited in thinking, and studying foreign and better-not-to-be-studied subjects of Dravidian linguistics, philology and history, etc.

            And I was just describing that particular historical movement in terms of its origin point in Maharashtra; it must have changed quite a bit compared to that point of course.

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        2. Regarding the Sai Baba question, perhaps the controversy is with respect to the question of the nature of disciplic succession to which Sai Baba belongs – whether bonafide or not.

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  3. For some reason the Japanese haven’t become “white” as they have become Western

    I read somewhere that Japanese visitors were given white status in apartheid South Africa, a status that was denied to Indians and Chinese.

    In America, it’s not surprising that the Japanese are not treated as white. Probably Japanese-Americans themselves resist labeling themselves as such, given their history of discrimination, and internment during WW2.

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    1. Numinous, my anecdotal observation is that Japanese Americans are rapidly becoming considered fully “white”.

      I know of many Japanese Americans with caucasian partners.

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  4. Xerxes, Dr. Debrah Soh believes that Asians will become completely “white” in America very soon:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zere8WRepGo

    I completely agree. Asians will demand to become white to avoid rampant discrimination and racism against Asians by post modernists. Asians are massively discriminated against in affirmative action relative to caucasians [who greatly socio-economically underperform Asians inside the United States].

    Dangerously for Asians, the margin of this outperformance relative to caucasians is growing. It is much safer for Asians to be considered “white”. A calculation Jewish Americans made long ago.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    UK friends (including Veedu Vidz) say that Asians in the UK are different. They don’t outperform caucasians. Even Hindus only modestly outperform caucasians in the UK.

    Another big difference is that in America muslim Asians and non muslim Asians are one big family. By contrast, I have heard that the communities in the UK are slowly bifurcating.

    Xerxes, why do you think this is?

    Is part of the reason Indians don’t want to be associated with Pakistanis because of molestation of under age girls, rape, terrorism, LGBTQ, FGM, honor violence and other types of social conservatism.

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  5. “As an aside it’s an old trope in Pakistan that we “Muslims” are more generous, glamorous and sociable than them “Hindus”;”

    For all the tropes( 1 muslim=10 hindus, hindus=baniyas/weak/vegan) I could never understand where did this whole “generous” thing start. Like even certain stereotype have some foundation.

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  6. Zack, main indication of westernization is really music. the extent a country is interested in western classical music and produces orchestras, piano players, sopranos, operas is a good indication of westernization. Not necessarily political institutions.
    Japanese Chinese and Koreans produce internationally top quality western music. India and Indians very much wedded to Hindustani or Carnatic. Zubin Mehta is an exception and shows the particular subculture he is from. Another indication may be dance where men and women dance as couples. And the couple need not be married. This also has not been taken up by Indians due to restrictions by Bharatiya Nari syndrome. Westernization of India is very superficial

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  7. ‘…Pakistan is sailing out of South Asia and Indians have let them do so. It’s a mistake since our natural ties…’

    Lol, you ascribe too much power to Indians. We can’t stop Pakistan sailing anywhere no less than we can stop Sri Lanka sailing into China’s arms.

    In my experience, it’s the Pakistanis who are the more westernised lot. I’ve found them to be better dressed, mannered and with better English accents than most Indians who are sweaty and ‘fresh’ looking as they say around here. In the weddings I’ve been to, the Pakistani guests seem to prefer suits over sherwanis. But then practically all the Pakistanis I know in my circles here are from rich backgrounds, parents either military, business, law or diplomacy and having done their schooling abroad. Comparatively, all the Indian immigrants here are of solid middle class backgrounds. I’m yet to come across a Pakistani from a middle or lower middle class background (unless a 3rd gen mirpuri, the lesser said about them the better, lol). Despite all the caste bashing that Indians get (and sometimes deserve) I would guess Pakistan is a far more stratified society.

    I’ve said it before – India’s destiny is to be an outpost of the West in the East. Our philosophy and dharmic religions have effortlessly taken to the English language and our western-inspired Constitution has survived largely intact. The process that started with the Brahmos three centuries ago will only accelerate with time. And I, for one welcome it.

    Of course, the Sri Lankans I’ve met are by far the most westernised of them all, Sinhalese more than Tamil. The Tamilz be more gangster, innit!

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  8. “Secular means non-religious, that’s all. Non-religious for me means not performing daily worship properly, not remembering God’s names periodically and not singing and listening to devotional songs, not praying wholeheartedly, doubting God, tending to procrastinate, becoming so uninhibited in thinking, and studying foreign and better-not-to-be-studied subjects of Dravidian linguistics, philology and history, etc.”

    We understand religion differently. Religious is to be sweet and loving. Then everything one does is a meditation and prayer. Dravidian linguistics, philology, history. studying foreign {things} are sweetness itself. All things and all moments become religious and spiritual.

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  9. India is meant to be a patriarchal and serious country. Western Liberal influence is sad. At the end of the day, if India isnt able to get it’s act together it will be beaten by Pakistan.

    The problem is most Indians dont have enough understanding of the evil that is Western Liberalism. Many young Indians (and esp Women it seems to me), and also many Pakis are still trying to emulate Western Liberal culture, when that same culture is facing a backlash in it’s own homeland.

    How many South Asians actually know about the backlash against Liberal, Feminist, LGBTQ, Comsumerism culture in the West, very few if any. South Asians are still way behind the West in terms of understanding the nature of the world, still trying to be Western when the West has lost all it’s glory. How ironic.

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    1. mzp1, India has long had very powerful matriarchal influences. Remember the 7 wives of the Sapta Rishis or Pleiades? Remember Sri Vidya? Remember Tantra?

      There are two separate and opposite things:
      —classical European Enlightenment liberalism [which is very similar to and in many ways a subset of eastern philosophy]
      —post modernism cultural marxism woke SJW [a negation of classical European Enlightenment liberalism and eastern philosophy]

      Classical European Enlightenment liberalism is a very good thing. The more it permeates the globe the more we benefit from it. Eastern philosophy operates along a common substrate. Eastern philosophy further examines the brain, nervous system, subconscious, mind, thought. With a focus on freedom of thought and various subtleties of thought.

      First wave feminism is very good and consistent with eastern culture. In many ways it restores the more ancient pre Abrahamic culture.

      The east has their own very ancient sophisticated understandings of LBGTQ along a different frame. Letting this bloom is a good thing.

      Sadly post modernism colonization of the mind threatens the entire world. Most people in the world do not understand the threat posed. The exception is former communist countries.

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  10. India has become as much white as it can in the short run. Liberal democracy, market economy and 24-hour TV, its all there. So level-1 whiteness has been achieved.

    Getting to level-2 white will take sometime, because it is a huge change.

    Level-2 white will be reached when Indians start accepting non-virgin girls as wives.

    There, I have said it. 🙂

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    1. Can you inform us, if you know about the Level 3 case in your neighbourhood? Why is so important for shaheeds that 77 virgins wait for them up there? Why non-virgins are excluded? What is the dynamics of their defloration, (i.e. #/day/week)? And who are they, where they come from? Do people voluntarily give away their daughters and sisters to be groupies and available to shaheeds? And what’s happening after the task is accomplished. Are they are going back to the market as non-virgins or there is a trick to become virgins again (I’ve heard about cases who were virgins several times)?

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  11. DM, thanks for your comment. I don’t fully agree regarding Adhyatmika or on the Abrahamic faiths. Although I would concede that eastern philosophy (here defined as Zorastrianism, maybe Bahai, Dharmics (including Sikhs), Toaists, Shinto, Confucians) deeply misunderstand Abrahamics.

    Could you expand your comment into an article? If so, I think it would be a good stand alone post for Brown Pundits.

    For thousands of years many great eastern writers have written extensively on:
    “Sarva Dharma Sama Bhaava Sarva Shresht”. Many books have been published on this topic in recent years.

    Religion starts with Pratyaksha and Samadhi. Then the Samksaras in the Chitta start to dissolve and the pathless journey begins. The divine romance. Sab ka bhaava ek hai! Everyone’s Bhaava is as one.

    Soteriological all religion leads to spiritual progress and eventual salvation as per the seeker’s deep inner desire.

    The methods by which the various religions reach salvation might appear externally different.

    In my view Sadhana is not religion. Sadhana is pre religion. Only Samadhi and Pratyaksha is religion. Abrahamic faiths focus heavily on saucha, suchi and specific prescribed methods of Sadhana. But the Abrahamic ways also lead to spiritual progress and freedom in my view.

    It is also worth noting that the Abrahamic faiths are rapidly changing. Kabbalah is exploding among my Jewish (and non Jewish) friends. Muraqabah is exploding among muslims. Universalist mystical Christianity is exploding within catholicism (John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila), Eastern Orthodox, many protestant denominations. The dead sea scrolls and the accompanying re-emergence of gnosticism have changed everything. Long ago I read several of the dead sea school manuscripts. They can be interpreted in an eastern way.

    A question for you if I might. How do you correlate the 7 heavens of Judaism, Christianity and Islam with the 7 heavens in the east [Bhur, Bhuva, Swaha, Mahar, Jana, Tapa, Sathyam (or Brahma Lokha)]?

    In my view in general there is a global religious and spiritual revival. This is especially observable in the technology world.

    2+
    1. “I don’t fully agree regarding Adhyatmika or on the Abrahamic faiths. Although I would concede that eastern philosophy (here defined as Zorastrianism, maybe Bahai, Dharmics (including Sikhs), Toaists, Shinto, Confucians) deeply misunderstand Abrahamics.” – Hmm, so what I meant was if I have to take reality as it exists, everyone’s on the same train. But do Abrahimic faiths/doctrines etc really understand “Adhyatmika”, although some of them might be doing it without even knowing is via their karma. Karma is the power source. Being at peace with Karmic baggage is extraordinarily hard. The bridge between that baggage and current birth is dharma according to what you got and hindusim encapsulates it the best.

      “Religion starts with Pratyaksha and Samadhi. Then the Samksaras in the Chitta start to dissolve and the pathless journey begins. The divine romance. Sab ka bhaava ek hai! Everyone’s Bhaava is as one.” + “In my view Sadhana is not religion. Sadhana is pre religion. Only Samadhi and Pratyaksha is religion. Abrahamic faiths focus heavily on saucha, suchi and specific prescribed methods of Sadhana. But the Abrahamic ways also lead to spiritual progress and freedom in my view.”

      – I don’t know if I understand the word Bhava properly. People have different capabilities, each unique to their own body. But, the most highest generalization of karmic tendencies can be seen in different races. Say for example, Aren’t white, aboriginal and african people the strongest, don’t they enjoy the most base pleasures in a higher capacity – sex, liquor, materialism etc. Isn’t their society structured towards liberalism to the fullest? Aren’t their religions entwined accordingly to give them that freedom to pursue their drives? So, any improvement from a lower base state is always better depending on the individual. So does that mean Bhavas are not same?

      “A question for you if I might. How do you correlate the 7 heavens of Judaism, Christianity and Islam with the 7 heavens in the east [Bhur, Bhuva, Swaha, Mahar, Jana, Tapa, Sathyam (or Brahma Lokha)]?” – They are platform for roles, similar to executive positions in a corporate world. If you transcend higher, karma drives your power of your atman and you are given specific roles, sometimes like the average joe like myself and sometimes like my guru, a custodian for some “stuff” he has to manage in this material world. Brahma, indra, shiva, vishnu are all posts, given to run the universe. They change over time. Even Brahma loka is not impervious to maya and karma. There are even higher levels than these. Knowing your proper karma according to your birth is the magic potion here. There are people who even transcend these levels to pitruloka, matruloka, sadhuloka, vaikunth, golaka etc. All is temporary and everything is a game.

      “Could you expand your comment into an article? If so, I think it would be a good stand alone post for Brown Pundits.” – So I come from a state called Odisha in India where we have the most closest form to Brahman worship so to speak – Jagannath and Mahima Dharma. and I’ve been lucky to have been born into a family whose members carried that sort of karmic power. Not me though. So for me it has been all about experience. I have skipped the phase of pinning the existing texts/characteristics/methods into my experience. I just go by what I have seen, heard and experienced, sort of like a peek into the software that runs all of this.

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  12. “Hmm, so what I meant was if I have to take reality as it exists, everyone’s on the same train. But do Abrahimic faiths/doctrines etc really understand “Adhyatmika”, although some of them might be doing it without even knowing is via their karma. Karma is the power source. Being at peace with Karmic baggage is extraordinarily hard. The bridge between that baggage and current birth is dharma according to what you got and hindusim encapsulates it the best.”

    Some of the Abrahamics hint at these deeper understandings of how the Mahat and Hiranyagarbha work. However these understandings are not always fully incorporated in many of the major organized Abrahamic “theologies”.

    Someone does not need to “know” to make spiritual progress or achieve freedom. The spiritual path is a leap into the unknown. For this reason Abrahamics can also obtain salvation, Shunyata, Tao, Satori, Nirvana, Brahma Nirvana, Moksha, Kaivalya, call it what you will.

    In my view without Samadhi and the Satwa Buddhi (deeper intelligence) that unlocks . . . deeper science cannot be understood.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    Bhaava here refers to the sweetest kind. Or the Samadhi kind! [Top 4 heavens or Chakras.]

    But you are right that there are many types of Samadhi or Bhaava from a certain point of view.

    However even the lowest type of Samadhi sets someone on a mystical path I think. The rest follow automatically. Samadhi isn’t the end. It is the very beginning. The marvelous path ahead is vast or Anantha.

    Once a seeker can go into Samadhi, then their own masters (including Abrahamic ones) or Allah can guide them the rest of the way.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Loved your last two paragraphs!

    Please think about writing a long post for BP!

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    1. “Someone does not need to “know” to make spiritual progress or achieve freedom. The spiritual path is a leap into the unknown. For this reason Abrahamics can also obtain salvation, Shunyata, Tao, Satori, Nirvana, Brahma Nirvana, Moksha, Kaivalya, call it what you will.”
      – Hmmm, I mean I agree, but they are slightly different from each other and vary according to each individual. Texts try to capture a generalized result. I say this because the ultimate reality as believed by different religions are different from each other and thereby may give different results. It is for this very reason that hinduism has so many deities. When idols became a deities via certain methods, certain characteristics were called upon from the root deity and captured inside the idol for specific purposes. Technically, you visit a certain specialized deity for a specific purpose. Now, that yuga is long gone and many deities are also lost in time, but that’s a natural part of everything being temporary. Now we have yantra driving a lot of things in society. So as per my learning, the effects are different (as part of karma eventually). But under broad generalized effects of spirituality its okay to attribute an positive upgrade from our base state as being similar to each other. Knowing what I know when I say karma is the power source for all. However, in India if you talk about these to Christians and Muslims they generally don’t reciprocate on equal terms. e.g. salvation has become such a state in the bible and in people’s minds that it comes across as being completely different. Salvation is dependant on allah’s and god’s will, but moksha per say if we understand it correctly is not dependant on Brahman.

      “However even the lowest type of Samadhi sets someone on a mystical path I think. The rest follow automatically. Samadhi isn’t the end. It is the very beginning. The marvelous path ahead is vast or Anantha.
      Once a seeker can go into Samadhi, then their own masters (including Abrahamic ones) or Allah can guide them the rest of the way.” – Yes, correct; but based on the guru’s own capabilities and stage.

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