Intra-subcontinental insults are…

By Razib Khan 103 Comments

One of the weirdest emails I’ve ever received.

Click to enlarge

The insults directed to me by people who are Pakistani or by people who are Hindus are peculiar, because they presuppose a sense of communal identity which I mostly lack. Insults toward Bengalis and Muslims just leave me scratching my head. Also, now that I am no longer 15 I don’t think that the measure of a man is how much “pussy” they bag….

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103 Replies to “Intra-subcontinental insults are…”

  1. >Pashtun
    Grim existence, probably wanted to vent after losing his 10th special goat to a drone strike.

  2. lmfao. I love S Asian wannabe fuckbois. Only kissless virgins bachi bazis talk like this fool

    Take it from a mid 20s S Asian dudebro gains masta, I saw no trends in one type versus another of S Asian subtypes being players vs. not. Actually, the majority just failed and stuck to binge drinking and smoking hookah with brown girls and trying to get at them. Yes some were successful and cleaned up but it was the minority of every group.

    Now, if we count Pakistani Rape Gangs, then yes. They do have quite a bit more sex with underaged white girls in the UL than anyone else. Guess that means they win?

    Jai shree ameen.

  3. The dude sounds like he’s fake. He might not be a Pashtun/Pakistani at all, rather an anti-Pakistani trying to formulate a lousy image on Pakistanis? However, there are some Pakistanis who boast about being the best looking south Asian lol Pakistan defence forum is full of such buffoons, so there must be some in real life as well.
    Most Bengalis are not into white girls anyway; Angelina Jolie or Kate Middleton are not considered more beautiful than an average Bengali girl. We can’t think anything else but Bengali rasgullas ?

      1. What do you mean by sharp features? As in resembling gracile Mediterranean and Nordid? Personally I think that the rugged robust Paleolithic/Mesolithic ones look better.

          1. It is over-represented among Kabadi players and other strength-combat sports types in general. Alternatively, these can be found in non-combat strength based sports like Rugby as well. Fabien Pelous would be a good French example, kind of ironic that he was born just over 200 km from the place where cro magnon rock shelter is located ?

    1. “Most Bengalis are not into white girls anyway; Angelina Jolie or Kate Middleton are not considered more beautiful than an average Bengali girl. We can’t think anything else but Bengali rasgullas.”

      This may be true of foreigners or other ethnic groups, but when it comes to social capital within the Bengali ethnic tent, I do think that the sharp features + light skin trope holds some water.

      In many Bengali language serials and movies, the lead actors and actresses tend to be the more ‘northern’ looking types with lighter skin. Even in matrimonial websites, those with the aforementioned features would always have comparatively more options (look at the infinite number of ads requesting ‘fairer’ brides and taller grooms).

      In general, the rule of thumb in this part of the world is that while people of the same ethnicity (caste throws in more confusion here) are preferred as partners over foreigners and different ethnicities, within the ethnic ingroup in question, fair skin (or relatively fairer skin) + sharp features would lead to greater social capital in most situations, and individuals of that ingroup with these features dominate the local entertainment industries.

      A while back I had a northern European friend who was a film student watch an episode of a Hindi serial with me on her request. After it ended, she asked me why all the maids in the show were darker than the lead actresses. Boy, was that a fun conversation.

      1. “when it comes to social capital within the Bengali ethnic tent, I do think that the sharp features + light skin trope holds some water.”

        I somewhat agree with you. Dunno about India, but in Bangladesh the shyamborno(medium or medium/dark tone) girls are equally preferred as fair-skinned girls, and it is the dominant skin tone in Bengalis. Many actress/model in Bangladesh falls in shyamborno category, but with makeup and lighting they are portrayed as light-skinned lol
        People forget that the world is not just black and white, south Asians should be categorised as different shades of brown.
        Around 70% of Bangladeshis have sharp features or almost sharp features, if the traits like the leptorrhine nose, pronounced cheekbones etc. are considered part of sharp features, but they become fatty due to unbalanced diet.

        ”Even in matrimonial websites, those with the aforementioned features would always have comparatively more options (look at the infinite number of ads requesting ‘fairer’ brides and taller grooms).”

        They almost always hide the real skin tone; even the fair-skinned individuals put lots of makeup to increase fairness. Every south Asian matrimony functions I attended, the bride looked unrecognisable due to heavy makeup.

        ”After it ended, she asked me why all the maids in the show were darker than the lead actresses. ”

        The folks in the poor class are somewhat darker than the upper class, so not surprising. The upper-class women spend most of the day at home mostly taking care of their skin lol
        There are light-skinned individuals among the poor class as well, but they get more sun exposure. Btw in many Bangladeshi Natok(Telefilm or serial), the maids are light-skinned and sharp-featured.

    2. \The dude sounds like he’s fake. He might not be a Pashtun/Pakistani at all,\
      This is not an unrealistic boast of Bradford , etc ‘littered’ with pliant white girls. One would have seen the news of grooming gangs in places like Bradford and other cities of England preying on vulnerable white girls – exclusively white girls. Number of men convicted amounts to hundreds. Considering the fact that only less than 5% of such crimes result in reporting, arrest and conviction, number of men involved should run into tens of thousands. In countries like Germany where Afghan young men have gone as refugees in the last few years, there are equally bad incidents

      https://nationalinterest.org/feature/ive-worked-refugees-decades-europes-afghan-crime-wave-mind-21506

      1. Afghans are white and very European-looking.
        And those Pakistani criminals are fair skinned steppe people who are at least distantly similar to different European groups.

        But the media stereotype them as brown…or dark

        1. Skin tone of Afghan is light as west Asians or in some extent southern Euro, but they don’t have Euro features, I mean in a broader sense they fall in Caucasoid category, but that doesn’t make them same as European. Every group have their own somatic look. Even south Asians fall in Caucasoid category according to pseudo-science and that somewhat proven true by genetic. Most South Asians have lots of west Eurasian.
          I think the von luschan scale is an excellent method to categorise skin tone :
          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Luschan%27s_chromatic_scale

          “may be Punjabi looking? and probably one North African-looking considering his rare super aquiline nose which is probably rare in even europeans).”

          The aquiline nose might be Iran_HG trait, as it’s prevalent among Iran_HG_heavy groups or Iran_hg related groups like Iran_N, Caucasus hunter-gatherer, Anatolian farmer etc. Many Bengalis have a downward nasal tip.
          My sister and I have the same nose shape observed among roman emperor statues, in our case, it’s Iran_hg trait, and for Ancient Romans, it’s Anatolian farmer trait.

          “I have seen eastern european and german individuals who had surprising similarities with some of my relatives.So,may be these “white”(east european?)”

          My paternal grandmom also shows some similarity with some German women I’ve seen. I guess, the large faced south Asian traits have an ancient connection with broad-faced European features, proto-west Eurasian trait maybe? There might have been a palaeolithic migration of a Cro-magnon like west Asian people(ydna H perhaps) into south Asia.
          If you observe the south Asian albinos, they somewhat resemble north Europeans:
          https://i.imgur.com/IDalttj.jpg

          “I am guessing these “white” features are equally found in west bengalis and may be even in higher percentage among bengali brahmins.”

          Phenotype-wise I don’t see any difference between Brahmin and middle castes. Look at Bengali brahmins they have the same feature as other Bengalis. Some of my favourite Bengali writers of Brahmin origin don’t even have light skin or sharp features, see Sunil Ganguli, his traits are more common among SC types like namasudras. Only a little %age of gene affects the phenotype IIRC.

        2. Depends on the Pakistani in question. Pakistanis range from Pashtuns to Balochis to the Lahore type.

  4. Lol…. highly, highly, highly unlikely that an actual Pashtun sent that.

    Definitely a troll.

    And off-topic, but still sorta on the subject in a roundabout way:

    Pashtuns (perhaps in contrast to the peoples of the subcontinent) don’t have a culture-wide bias towards fair skin (except the ones that live near South Asians… like the Peshawaris and Swatis).

    Traditional male folk songs are about “ghanam rang jelkai” (“dark damsel”), and female folk songs are often about their “tor ashiq” (literally “black lover”).

  5. It sounds to me as a recent TTT (tough taqiyya talking) ‘menthol’ (slang for – homo anonymous i.e. anonymous homo(ron), stalker with a mental condition), hidden behind three layers of pseudonyms who always chooses his special goat to be white.

  6. honestly I have seen only a minority of Indic Pakistanis who can pass off as White (Punjabis, Kashmiris, Sindhis, Mohajirs). Maybe 10%, aka Nikki Haleyoids, if that. But places like Pakdefense act like it is 50%. KPK Gilgit Baltistanis (they number like 3 million and again trolls portray them as soke huge minority) are an exception.
    Iranic Pakistanis, a greater portion do pass as White. And that makes sense, insofar as many are essentially fully west eurasian.
    Most Pakistanis to me are just light brown folk with some medium brown and some light and a minority dark. Indians are a medium brown folk with some light and fewer fair and some dark.

    When most people think of Pakistanis in the West, it’s Kumail Nanjiani, Amir Khan (the boxer), Nadia Ali (singer), and Sadiq Khan. I mean they mostly think of brown folk, who look like brethren of NW Indians.

    But yes I realize there is diversity.

    1. Iranian peoples who speak Pashto, Balochi, Dari (Afghan refugees speak both Pashto and Dari-Persian) and Wakhi comprise over 20% of the population of Pakistan. Pashtuns(i.e. North Pakistanis) are usually white-looking.
      There are some other ethnic minorities(Kashmiris,Gilgit Baltistanis etc) who are mostly white-passing. White-passing people probably exist in all other ethnicities also.

      So, I am assuming that at least 35% Pakistanis are white-passing.

      Even the ones who are not exactly white passing are(probably) very similar to white people(from eastern and southern europe?) in terms of facial features.

      1. yeah no.look up a crowd of Pashtuns. Not all of them are white passing by any means. Some are and some aren’t most punjabis definitely aren’t

        1. BTW eastern and southern(and may be even western?) european “white” people may sometimes look very North Indian and not exactly what we mean by “white”. For example, this Serbian actress who looks a bit like Priyanka Chopra is probably very North Indian looking and not exactly “white” looking:
          https://www.imdb.com/name/nm5788330/mediaindex?ref_=nm_phs_md_sm
          May be most Pakistanis(in terms of facial features) also look like these eastern and southern european people. I am not sure though…

          Even I(despite being Bengali) have many fair-skinned relatives from both sides(one ancestral relative migrated from India though) whose facial features are very causcasian.(may be Punjabi looking? and probably one North African-looking considering his rare super aquiline nose which is probably rare in even europeans). I have seen eastern european and german individuals who had surprising similarities with some of my relatives.So,may be these “white”(east european?) features are probably not uncommon in North Indians and Pakistanis.

          1. Those ‘punjabi looks’ you’re bragging about are most probably the result of the rape of bengali’s by losing pak army in 70s or the rape of bengali’s by turkic iconoclasts in 11-12th century.

          2. No. Those punjabi looking? relatives are descendants of some who migrated from India during partition…and if you are talking about rape by Punjabi army,such incidents were actually very little(much less than what the media say) and in most cases the raped women didn’t give birth to children. Plus, the Punjabi army’s target was mostly Hindu Bengalis. so it didnt have any genetic impact unlike Aryan(and other steppe) invasion.

            I am guessing these “white” features are equally found in west bengalis and may be even in higher percentage among bengali brahmins.

            And turkic iconoclasts probably made almost no genetic impact. If they made any genetic impact, it would have been detected in DNA tests

          3. “Plus, the Punjabi army’s target was mostly Hindu Bengalis.”

            Do we know, what’s the reason that in 71 and thereafter this aspect was hardly played up. In India, we are taught that Pak’s army operations was largely against Bengalis (Hindus and muslims alike) and any Hindu specific stuff was random (due to 2 nation theory) rather than pre-mediated. Even foreign correspondents based in Dhaka, didnt feel that the operations were so Hindu specific that it would warrant a specific mention. Even Pak army’s own literature focuses on “Bengali-ness” of the whole event , rather than “Hindu-ness” (they do, but not as much )

            Its only now i am hearing much of this Hindu targeting and all. Pretty sure Indira would have used this as a propaganda tool, but in all her mentions she refers East Bengalis

          4. BTW Priyanka Chopra is perhaps the most “un-punjabi” looking actress (darker skin, round rather than sharp features etc) , at least in terms of what’s expected on the blog about Punjabi features.

            I would say Pri Chops is more S-Indian looking than N-Indian.

        2. @Dravidarya
          “Those ‘punjabi looks’ you’re bragging about are most probably the result of the rape of bengali’s by losing pak army in 70s ”
          I hope you’re joking.
          Bengalis are stabilised hybrid and are homogenous now.
          There’s no Punjabi look in Bangladesh; all are Bengali look even the most light-skinned sharp featured one. Diversity exists in all hybrid groups.
          “or the rape of bengali’s by turkic iconoclasts in 11-12th century.”
          Turkic are east Asian-west Eurasian hybrid. Bengalis west Eurasian and East Asian is not related to them.

          1. Actually, this liberation war of 1971 is a very confusing issue. I dont know a lot about this liberation war. According to Sarmila Bose, the author of ” Dead Reckoning: Memories of the 1971 Bangladesh War”, the death and rape that took place are very less than what the media say.

            The war was mostly city-centric i.e. it didn’t have much impact on rural life. My assumption is that the Pak army was a bit more harsh against Hindu Bengalis than Muslim bengalis. I have heard from my relatives and one of my hindu friend that their villages were not attacked. May be there were a few cases of burning down rural houses…any way the war was mostly city-centric.

            Many Bihari civilians were also killed by Bengali fighters.I know such incidents from personal sources.

      2. Considering Pakistan doesn’t have as strict of a caste system, I’d assume the dating market is much more open.
        So do people like ‘white passing’ Gilgit Baltistanis get to sire more than average number of children?

        Over a long enough period of time, is Pakistan’s destiny to become a white country?

        1. “Considering Pakistan doesn’t have as strict of a caste system, I’d assume the dating market is much more open”

          LOL

    2. i met a guy with white skin and aburn curly hair on an PIA flight in 1990. he was a steward. i started talking to him in english and he only knew urdu.

    3. I highly doubt that anymore than maybe a handful actually pass off as whites. Nikki looks middle eastern, not white. A lot of the supposedly white-looking minorities in Pakistan such as Kalash also look more middle-eastern than white. There are some exceptions among these exceptions who look more white than middle easterners, but if you compared them to the total population of Pakistan, then they would be around 0.1% or maybe even less than that, which isn’t surprising since the fair skin variant of A2 has not been positively selected for in south Asia.

      Its strange to see Pakistanis using very cherrypicked, and sometimes even photoshopped pictures of some of them looking white because for the last few hundred years they associated with middle-easterners instead. I would have expected their trend to be along the lines of light-brown instead. When did the change appear? During the Ataturk era?

      1. too pessimistic, though you are right more kalash seem middle eastern than white *european* looking. the fact is in the USA white middle easterners can often “pass” if they are not muslim. ppl think they are italian (see who tony shalhoub plays). meanwhile, s asian actors play middle easterners, since real middle easterners are too white looking to make a comfortable terrorist

      2. Middle easterners are themselves very white-looking.(except those particular middle eastern face that the media intentionally use to make middle eastern ppl appear like South Asians)

        I think that religious difference is the main issue for their not getting the full white pass

        1. I think there is an implicit communication gap here. When I refer to ‘white’ I am thinking more so along the lines of the English. Though yes there are some English and perhaps in general Britons like that activist guy who overlap with southern Europeans or even middle-easterners. What was his name…Russel brand. Then there is swarthy John Oliver as well who himself could easily pass for a Mediterranean person. There is indeed more overlap than I had thought at first.

          1. /When I refer to ‘white’ I am thinking more so along the lines of the English/
            This IS a racist attitude, there are millions of black and brown English.
            19th C English physiognamy is passè

          2. @Vijayvan
            Sure you can say that there are mixed English people with non-English background (someone with a Swedish and an English parent would still be mixed English) but speaking the language alone wouldn’t make someone English.
            The mixed English would also be outliers in the general group of ethnic English people.

          3. >Your ‘outlier’ concern shows you approach it genetically

            That much is obvious, the link talks about identity while I am referring to the English genetic cluster. The discussion was about appearance to begin with and people appearing similar to groups other than their own nominal one.

          4. \English genetic cluster\
            ‘English’ is a social construct. Given the present identity of ‘English’ circa 2020 – or an attempt at it -as given by YouGov poll , what is the genetic distribution in it.? You can really talk of only along those terms, rather than simply take English as a substitute in for White.
            There is no more English gene than aryan gene or dravidian gene

          5. In social terms- yes you are correct. However we have been discussing different groups of people in terms of ethnicity and their apparently out of place-ish outlier appearances. There is no single English gene, but the English form a cluster which differentiates them from most other Europeans. The only groups of people who would be hard to distinguish from the English genetically would be other northwest Europeans (doesn’t contradict my Swedish example earlier since Swedish are northern and not northwestern).

        2. Gulf Arabs are no way white looking. They instead have similar skin tone as light-skinned South Asians in most cases and sometimes even same skin tone as average south Asians, the Bedouin tribes, for example, are quite dark. The Levantine Arabs sometimes can pass as white European, especially southern European. There’s overlap between Levantine Arabs and Gulf Arabs, so a little %age of gulf Arabs also can pass as south European.

          1. @son goku
            Interestingly Gulf Arabs are also different in terms of ancestral portions when compared to eastern Mediterranean Arabs. Notably, Gulf Arabs like Saudis have a considerably higher Natufian, a notably lower Anatolian, slightly lower CHG ancestry, and roughly similar Ganj Dareh ancestry. Though IDK if the Anatolian-Natufian difference alone can explain the difference in appearance.

        3. Some people from Middle East can pass as White Euros and some can’t. Frankly, to me, majority can’t. I grew up around them and yes maybe like 30-35% can and more among Levantines. But many cannot. Look up crowd pictures of these countries. Look at the people. Draw your own conclusions.

          But yes, they are not as uniformly brown as the American media that uses S Asians to represent them portrays

          1. Bosniacs also don’t look like stereotyped terrorists and they are in high demand because they easier pass through the airports’ controls. They are becoming a part of the growing so-called white Al Kaida.

  7. What is the racial category of Pashtuns in the US? Does it change depending on whether the person is from Afghanistan or Pakistan?

    1. Slapstik,

      “Does it change depending on whether the person is from Afghanistan or Pakistan?”

      Oddly enough, yes. Lol

      The US Census puts Pakistanis in the Asian bracket, and Afghans in the white category.

      Totally nonsensical. Not only because it implies that people of one ethnicity belong to two distinct races, due to the presence of a meaningless political border…. but also because (here in America) no one would ever construe Pakistanis as Asian (in America, people think Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc), and “white” is typified by people of northwestern European ancestry (and thus the term is wholly inapplicable to Afghans). I’ve known Italians and Spaniards who don’t identify as “white” (even a Russian). At least where I live, “white” unambigously means British Isles + Scandinavia + Germany and nearby surrounds.

      1. @Commentator

        Thanks. That does sound stupid. But then most of the American race (or de-race) obsession sounds stupid to me. It’s a bit like caste in India, can’t swallow it nor vomit it out.

        1. so yeah i was wrong. it turns out

          1) afghan are ‘white’
          2) also defined as ‘south asian ancestry’

          so usa census literally classes afghans as white south asians 😉

          1. Does this carry some hold-over from pre- 40, 50s 1960s US laws defining “Asians” due to early 20th century exclusionary policies? Or is it a far more recent thing? I know the whole South Asians wanting to be classed as Asian thing was definitely post 60s (when was it 70s? 80s?) but had no idea how the US dealt with the line between S. Asians and putting Middle Easterners as white up til then.

            I recall hearing about at some point Syrians lobbying to be white earlier in the 20th century for naturalization. Historically, the US really sharply saw Asian immigration from the far east as racially different from whites and likewise with south Asians (eg. early Sihk/Punjabi immigrants as in the case of United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind, or the Bellingham riots) but I dunno how carefully most of the 20th century drew the “color line” on middle easterners and the mid-east/s. asia boundary since that seemed to only really come into the public consciousness later post 60s, and especially late in the 20th and early 21st century with the US war on terror.

          2. @Diasporan: the South Asians not being classified as Caucasian in the US is fairly recent and I believe can be traced to the 1980s, possibly due to some lobbying by Indian businessmen who wanted minority status advantage. As far as the US immigration laws, there was a so-called Asiatic Barred Zone which covered most of Asia including India, the Middle East and East Asia from roughly the mid 1920s to mid 1960s.

  8. I love how all these Indian and Pakistani dudes say “my so and so” look so European.

    Yet to see one who would comment and say my aunt/father etc looks like a Tribal/Andaman Islander/Aus Aborigine.

    Yeah, Indo Europeans/R1a originated from India, so you need to keep reassuring yourself of similarities to Europeans.

    How, many Europeans care to comment that Aunt/Dad looks Indian. OK exception to Elizabeth Warren who is “part” First American, i.e. Red Indian.

    1. Indians think Europeans look better. So aspire to their look.

      There is the question of whether Europeans looking better is objectively true or merely a result of cultural conditioning due to colonialism by “white” C Asians and later Europeans. I do not know the answer to that, and we do not have intelligent aliens amongst us to settle it. However, I suspect the truth has layers of both of those kinds.

      If there is something truly objectively better about how Europeans look, over time sexual selection will make the whole of humanity (unless bits of it have moved away due to other cultural pressures) look like them. Can’t stop humans bonking each other to raise successively “mixed race” kids. I have them in close family, something that would have shocked the wits out of my grandmother only a couple of decades ago.

      1. Ppl from Europe,middle east,central asia and a lot of south asians(not all south asians) have many similarities in facial features. They have differences as well. There are many sub-categories also.

        Not all white European groups look the same either.

        So, when some south asians say that they look european(or middle eastern), they say so not bcz they want to look like them but bcz they actually mean it

        1. i dated a girl who was mostly descended from germans from Pomerania in college. (her parents grew up in a town in indiana of pomeranians?) anyway, in college a german international student came up to her and asked her if she was pomeranian. he said “you look pomeranian.”

          my point is there is lots of local subtle visible characteristics that people within nations notice. so i’ve never seen a ‘white south asian’ who quite looks ‘european.’ rather like many ‘white americans’ don’t look european either (since they are mixed). i’ve had european friends tell me they can pick out white americans in europe because their faces are often ‘out of place’

          1. I’ve heard this too — that some people can pick out Americans from non-Americans of the same race (black, white, even Asian Americans vs. people in actual Asia), but it’s often highly unclear how much of that is genuinely novel phenotypes from genetic combo differences from the old (or multi vs. single country) genealogical roots, as opposed to environment of upbringing including diet-induced height or build differences, social cues, facial expressions etc., including American habits of walking, smiling etc.

            For most Asian Americans vs. Asians it wouldn’t as likely be many genetic differences due to heavy intergroup mixing because of more recent immigrant roots, aside from Japanese Americans and people in Hawaii as opposed to single-origins, vs. more mixed black and white Americans, not sure about if it holds for telling apart Hispanic Americans and Hispanics elsewhere, since both are already heavily mixed and diverse.

            But I still feel like even white and black Americans of long-standing American family roots have been known to “pass” unquestioned while visiting countries where others look like them (eg. European countries, Ghana etc.) if they actually put in effort to dress and walk and use facial expressions like them.

            I don’t know what the typical experience of a desi American, Brit etc. is in terms of not sticking out in the old country but I’d be curious for older diasporas who have a longer history of separation with multiple generations and often some non-desi ancestry. Do Indo-Caribbeans, Guyanese, Mauritians or other older established communities from the 1800s plantation diaspora have a different look from old world desis the way white Americans reputedly do from white Europeans?

        2. @Bengalistani

          Lol. I don’t mean categories are homogenous. I mean that we can write SVM based classification algos to sort Europeans from a list of faces with very high accuracy. This indicates geographical/ethnic distribution of human physiognomy is computable. And claims about people looking European etc are testable scientific claims and we can quantify error around them.

          https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/1301530

          1. if u limit classifications to 3 or 4 for categories *some* asians are ‘white.’ but clearly in any natural system the light-skinned ones usually aren’t european looking at all. i will say though that some pakistanis/afghans look pretty european and not just white west asian. i suspect this is the shared post-yamnaya ancestry

      2. \ whether Europeans looking better is objectively true or merely a result of cultural conditioning due to colonialism by “white” C Asians and later Europeans\

        Aesthetics is always subjective. However aesthetic considerations are only tangential to most people’s life decisions .

        1. @VijayVan

          // Aesthetics is always subjective. However aesthetic considerations are only tangential to most people’s life decisions //

          I think both of those statements are false, and the falsehood of the second one is lot more obvious to most people.

          For the first one, consider the example of flowers. Many flowers evolved in co-evolution with pollinating insects millions of years before hominids ever roamed the earth. Yet we find flowers to be aesthetically pleasing and attractive in all human cultures. In effect, the human is acting like the “alien” here in the world of insects and flowers which share a functional biological relationship. And the alien agrees with the insect. In effect confirming that biological evolution has converged to some structure that has some universal aesthetic about it.

          Exactly why that aesthetic universal exists and whether we can have a whole branch of mathematics behind such aesthetics only time will tell. But the claim of aesthetically pleasing structure being objectively out there as opposed to a concoction of the human mind is not a silly one.

          1. evolution can tell us a lot about what we find appealing. e.g., we are probably evolved in ‘open savanna.’ but for sexual characteristics,

            1) secondary sexual characteristics seem to be important in most cultures, though it varies (e.g., east asians had negative terms for excessively busty women)

            2) long-term cultural changes in preferences. e.g., ancient greeks were a race of “butt” not “breast” men. obv in statues

            if you show someone a good-looking man or woman from any society a certain set of features like symmetry are universal

      3. If there is something truly objectively better about how Europeans look, over time sexual selection will make the whole of humanity

        sexual selection is very strong and quick. i’m generally skeptical that it’s as important as people assume it must be.

    2. many Europeans care to comment that Aunt/Dad looks Indian.

      i’ve known a fair amount of southern europeans make this comment though they mean light-skinned bollywood types. and ‘southern european’ i mean americans. e.g., i knew a sicilian woman (landlady) who told me she often was spoken to in punjabi by cab-drivers. she had olive-brown skin so i got it.

  9. Two observations:

    This is an obvious Indian troll attempt.

    The skin color and race discussions here are becoming increasingly cringe. Nobody passes as white. Most Afghans do not pass as white. Nikki Haley does not look white to anybody. Simply having light colored skin does not allow you to pass as white.

    1. I admit to being surprised that anybody thought Nikki Haley was white. I can understand if people thought she looked Middle Eastern rather than Indian, but to my eye at least she doesn’t look white even like, say, a Sicilian.

  10. Nikki Haley does not look white to anybody.

    this is false. there were plenty of press reports at the time (2000s) about some ppl being surprised she was indian (south carolina republicans) when her parents were around (her dad wears a turban). an indian american professor friend also told me several colleagues (this was at a catholic college) were surprised to realize she was indian and told him so.

    i think the % of ‘south asians’ and ‘afghans’ who pass as white or could is small. closer to 1% than 10%. but i’ve known of random jats and various NW ppl who have. usually though they have lived in the NE and ppl assume they are ‘white ethnics’ (usually this means italian) even if they look ‘off’ (south italians etc. have their own look obv aside from coloring). in the 1965-1990 gen having an ‘american’ nickname wasn’t uncommon so ppl would false-positive them as something else.

    i knew one pakistani woman who was light and looked brunette white who was asked in 1980s by old italian ameriacans where in old country she was from. i know this is so cuz i was there at the convenience store where this happened (she was taking me to get candy cuz my mom was busy cooking).

    The skin color and race discussions here are becoming increasingly cringe.

    they’re cringe from a north american perspective. or at least most north americans. a minority (e.g., jats in vancouver) are invested in them. perhaps even more than ppl in south asia i’ve met. (i’m thinking of central valley sikhs i met who used ‘you look south indian’ as an insult)

    a minority of british pakistanis and sikhs also seem pretty into them, contrasting how light and tall they are with short dark south indian americans.

    1. Yeah Indians were mostly surprised that Nikki was Punjabi. She has that old British memsahib look (crumbled skin and all) which has been stereotypical portrayal in Bollywood movies

      1. I don’t recall such surprise. Jindal and Haley came into the limelight as Republican pols of Indian descent in the latter part of the previous decade, and I can’t remember any questions about their ethnicity (a lot more obvious in Jindal’s case admittedly.)

    2. Where does intra-South Asian feuding in the diaspora get the nastiest? In places like Vancouver, Canada, England?
      Is it about critical mass of desis (enough so feud amongst each other, unlike in places where they are such a minority they unite as brown in opposition to the white majority or at least non-desis)? I’ve noticed this for E. Asians — in California, NY, Vancouver, they identify as hyper-specific old country labels (even within groups like HK Chinese vs. Taiwanese etc.). In midwest, southern states with few Asians, they are more likely to unite under pan-Asian labels (even including desis with E. Asians!).
      Or is it about having one established desi group that was there a long time (eg. Jats in Vancouver, Central valley) carrying “frozen” old country culture conservatively in diaspora vs. newcomer desis (eg. south Indians as part of IT waves)?

  11. Those ‘punjabi looks’ you’re bragging about are most probably the result of the rape of bengali’s by losing pak army in 70s or the rape of bengali’s by turkic iconoclasts in 11-12th century.

    there is no genetic evidence of this. if you leave another troll comment i’ll block you since you are just making shit up or mouth-farting.

      1. jesus fucking christ. control-f “abortion” in the entry you yourself linked to.

        that explains the lack of genetic impact (and likely infanticide, unfortunately).

      2. Liberation war is a very controversial issue. The number of death and rape that took place are highly overrated. Till now, i haven’t heard (from common people) of any case of killings during 1971

        In fact, many Bihari (they look similar to Bengalis) civilians were killed by Bengali fighters. I also know these from personal sources…from distant relatives who were freedom fighters

        1. And yes. Based on phenotype, i think a few people may have some west asian(eg. Qasem Soleimani looks) ancestry.
          But they are very few in number

          1. “And yes. Based on phenotype, i think a few people may have some west asian(eg. Qasem Soleimani looks) ancestry.”

            The assumption of recent west Asian ancestry based on phenotype is nonsensical after knowing south Asian genetical composition.
            Last time I visited my hometown in Bangladesh, I noticed almost every family there has at least one family member that has a western look, ranging from Iranian to Uzbek to Arab.
            An example:
            Compare this Bengali guy in the middle of this video:
            https://youtu.be/7c8lx8eqtNc

            With this Iranian Youtuber:
            https://youtu.be/GS6me_LyJPU

            Similar look, slight difference is the Bengali guy has a hooked nose. I’m very sure these are Iran_HG traits.
            Pretty obvious the Andamanese related AASI genes altered South Asian phenotypes making distinct from West Asians, and when the AASI influence in phenotype is minimal, they tend to look west Asian.

          2. “Last time I visited my hometown in Bangladesh, I noticed almost every family there has at least one family member that has a western look, ranging from Iranian to Uzbek to Arab.”

            Then you must be Sylheti. I saw 7 or 8 individuals in Sylhet who looked completely non-south asian. May be they looked persian/turk/greek idk.
            However,the vast majority looked South Asian.
            I have never seen such phenotypes in Dhaka. So, the logical deduction is that some Sylhetis have some west asian ancestry from west asians who settled there.
            Once Tsar Razib Khan also said that he found some west asian ancestry (may be he was talking about some sylhetis)

            “An example:
            Compare this Bengali guy in the middle of this video:
            https://youtu.be/7c8lx8eqtNc

            With this Iranian Youtuber:
            https://youtu.be/GS6me_LyJPU

            Similar look, slight difference is the Bengali guy has a hooked nose. I’m very sure these are Iran_HG traits.”

            No, those persian? features in a few ppl I’ve seen are much more distinct.
            But yes Caucasoid looking fair skinned south asians may often look Arab and may be North Indians may often look very west asian(Gulf Arab?)

            “Pretty obvious the Andamanese related AASI genes altered South Asian phenotypes making distinct from West Asians, and when the AASI influence in phenotype is minimal, they tend to look west Asian.”

            Yes, possible. But if that is the case then groups with much higher Iran HG should exhibit west asian(persian?) phenotypes in higher amount.

  12. Another one, a propos the above fan of blondish goats…It is known that the word ‘fuck’ is identical in Serbian and Sanskrit, i.e. ‘jebati’ and ‘jabhati’. There is an expression (usually used in similar context for Albanians) – ‘kozojebi’ (=goatfuckers).

    There are several naïve stereotypes here about European people:

    – ‘South-European look’> Which SEs? Serbian people on the coast are the tallest people in Europe and they have all nuance appearances in a range from Priyanka till Cameron Diaz. ‘Classical’ Greeks (like Tsipras) are dark and the shortest (they didn’t consider themselves white in ancient times and they called northern Serbs > Celts, i.e. ‘whites’). Spartan people (from Peloponnese) are tall and blondish because they are genetically Serbs. Italians in Calabria and Napoli are extremely short and dark, Italians in Lombardia (Milan) are tall and often blondish (they are also descendants of the Serbian tribe Lombards) so as Venetians. There is an anecdote about one Serbian prince (from today’s Montenegro) in the 18th century who visited Napoli. He was 2.10 m tall and all his hosts were about 1.60m tall.

    – Roman emperor statues > Again: ‘classical’ or not? There were 18 Serbian Roman Emperors btw. 193-450AC. Interestingly, there was NOT one Greek emperor, neither ‘classical’ nor ordinary! How come?…

    Let see for e.g. one Serbian emperor – Constantine the Great, who legalised Christianity: https://www.google.com/search?q=emperor+constantine&biw=1920&bih=969&sxsrf=ACYBGNSp8ijAHF8FPI_L9iZ1tHRevLVKLw:1578106798920&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=jrZP9YTdAPFEbM%253A%252C3poTzWGuJfeIDM%252C%252Fm%252F021tl&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTWiBDZPkq_f053ZumDRgeC3mILjQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi79Kr5-ejmAhVi6nMBHZMxBasQ_B0wG3oECAkQAw#imgrc=PchB7Z3z79EPBM:&vet=1

    – Similarity btw. Germans and East Europeans. > I wrote before, now briefly, the original Germans who came from Asia were short, stumpy and dark (for e.g. in Bavaria). So-called ‘Germans look’ are actually germanised Serbs, e.g. Prussians. Almost the entire former East Germany (remember their sportsmen who were the best in the world) are germanised Serbs, very similar to Polish. Pomeranians (in Serbian=people who live on the sea cost) are also germanised Slavics (Serbs) who live on the Baltic coast.

    – One of Aryan types who came to SA was similar to the guy bellow:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=alexander+godunov+photos&sxsrf=ACYBGNR0QY8Z60AugCAr1-oOJEaA8vPmmw:1578105081837&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=EeKYGsivGdtZjM%253A%252CUTIrMQj0Fd9mKM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQDKoYyfNuonvT0JduKJgSn-bwQEA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjxcjG8-jmAhX6xzgGHdGcCV0Q9QEwAHoECAoQBA#imgrc=kneuTTHSY69vRM:&vet=1

  13. lol this place has shown to he as bad as the places it mocks with some of these posts

    British were right. Divide and rule is optimal with such ingrained tribalism and concurrent cynical fatalism really

  14. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-45918845

    Khalistani leader of the Pakistani rape gang Mr. Dhaliwal. Maybe epigenetic impact of partition is leading to a reenactment?

    “As married father-of-two Dhaliwal was sentenced, the judge told him: “The extent and gravity of your offending far exceeds anything which I have previously encountered.”

    What Aryan looks. Hitler would be proud

    Jai Shree Ameen

    1. thewarlock,
      How horrible. 🙁
      Was this Khalistani the only Sikh involved in the rape and molestations of under age nonmuslim girls?

      Turns out that about 18,000 minor female brits were annually raped and molested by Pakistani males (1% of all males in the UK in the early years and closer to 2% of all UK males in more recent years) . This represented the large majority of all UK under age females raped and molested. This went on for decades.

      I have heard from my main man hero of Arya varsha Veedu Vidz that this appears to be a Mirpuri Pakistani issue.

  15. Afghans often could not and cannot tell Americans apart from Afghans. This is true of Americans dressed like Afghans. Many Afghans mistake the Afghan National Army for the American Army.

    Afghans often self identify as “white” to avoid being discriminated against in favor of “whites” via race based affirmative action.

    There are some crazy, crazy, nutty comments above.

  16. “BTW Priyanka Chopra is perhaps the most “un-punjabi” looking actress”

    That might be in no small part because she is only half Punjabi. She’s a quarter Bihari and a quarter Mallu.

  17. “I don’t know what the typical experience of a desi American, Brit etc. is in terms of not sticking out in the old country ”

    I have at least found it easy to pick out desi Americans (i.e. people who grew up there) in India. Not so sure about Brits and Aussies.

    Physically, they are bigger/better built than people of the same height. Their facial complexion is more even and skin is tighter (fewer wrinkles) and teeth seem ‘perfect’. They also usually dress better and don’t have the head bob.

    I think a lot of it is cultural, apart from a healthier diet. For example, obsession with skin or dental care is not that big a deal even among upper-class Indians. Also, Americans have a more outdoorsy lifestyle with more time under the sun and that shows in their skin tone.

    (I might be generalizing to folks in California or New York since these are the people I usually run into in tech)

  18. Indthings – “The skin color and race discussions here are becoming increasingly cringe.”

    Spoken like a true pundit. Pundits are supposed to transcend these petty issues.

    For the same reason as mentioned by you, I have nothing to add to this discussion.

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