it appears indian army has shown its risk taking and out of box thinking in this chinese war. this is a good thing. pak is also having difficult time guessing indian moves.
Narasingha Deva
4 years ago
Bangladesh gives traders special permission for hilsa export to India
1. Definitely from the Bronze Age – the amount of copper sheathing and rods in the chariot structure is quite high.
2. I always wondered about the typical chariot that one could see in Bhagavad-Gita illustrations. Where the chariot would have a significant canopy. Even the ones in TV Mahabharata would have such canopies. And the Sanauli chariot has exactly such a copper tube for holding the Canopy (which might be cloth or straw construction)
3. Now Piggott reconstructed the vipatha (Rgveda word for chariot) more than 150 years ago based on the descriptions in the Rgveda. The excavated Sanauli chariot matches that largely including the yoke angled upwards.
4. The evolution of wheels in the modern era have been like this – solid, spoked, disc, multi-spoked, single alloy. Notice the third stage – a disc wheel is also a solid wheel but cast on one piece. Solid/Disc wheels are cheaper to make and replace. That’s why so many temple chariots in India have solid wheels even today.
@Ugra
Thanks for the Piggott link; I will definitely read it when I get time. Wheel technology tree is very intriguing. Do you know any book that describes it?
Roy
4 years ago
Kamala Harris Is An Anchor Baby, Not A ‘Natural Born Citizen’ Of The United States
The key question is whether Kamala Harris is a “natural born citizen” of the United States. According to the clearly written definition, which has been acknowledged for over two centuries, argues Mr. Sayre, if one of her parents was not a US Citizen at the time of her birth, she is not a natural born citizen.
Roy, I not know who Mr. Sayre is, nor do I much care.
The question is entirely within existing statutes:
8 U.S. Code § 1401 – Nationals and citizens of United States at birth
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
The language of (a) is taken directly from Am. XIV §1:
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States”
The force of that provision was established in U. S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) where the US Supreme Court held that a child born in the United States a citizen of the United States entitled to all the rights and privileges of citizenship, even though his parents were foreigners ineligible to be naturalized at the time he was born.
Sen. Harris was undisputedly born at Oakland CA and is a citizen by birth, and is therefore a naturally born citizen.
Even if the birth was by C-section:
MACBETH: I bear a charmed life, which must not yield, to one of woman born.
MACDUFF: Despair thy charm; and let the angel whom thou still hast served tell thee, Macduff was from his mother’s womb Untimely ripped.Scottih Play A. V, S. 8
@Razib, i was looking at the qpADM estimates of different jaatis in narsimhan’s paper and i found that some of the bania castes like Agarwals of Delhi, Banias of UP have less steppe than many of the OBC jaatis of UP and similar steppe as some of dalit jaatis of UP like Jatavs . In that case, how true is this claim of ritual/varna status being correlated with steppe ancestry in the non north-west regions of india ? (Of course, varna has little correlation with dabangai(bullying behavior ) on ground but that’s a different story)
Yeah I found that odd too. I am of Gujarati Jain vania origin and my steppe percent is roughly the same as Tambrahms. But the banias in Narsimhan paper are a bit lower. maybe just selection bias either way? Or the merchant castes just mixed more because capitalism leads to pragmatism more than hardcore honor culture orientation of priests and warrior caste? who knows. all conjecture
@thewarlock, i consider it pretty normal considering the banias from UP and Bihar(and even Delhi) i have come across :).
” hardcore honor culture orientation of priests and warrior caste” — my understanding is that as we sample more rajput clans from MP and bihar, we would find some heterogeneity among them too.
yeah most likely. Gujaratis also cluster a bit west of gangetic plains types, when adjusting for caste among priest, warrior, and merchant castes. Gujarati Brahmins are about as west shifted as Khatris actually per Narsimhan.
I think gangetic plains had more tribal populations encountered as forests cleared by more westerly migrants
In that case, how true is this claim of ritual/varna status being correlated with steppe ancestry in the non north-west regions of India ?
a correlation of .5 will have lots of residuals.
i knew of all that. it looks like “IVC” is enriched in the guj=>south India zone. in contrast, steppe and AASI is enriched in the eastern gangetic plain. eg gangetic plains brahmins have way more steppe that some sindhis and guj, but also more AASI!
So my view on Hinduism vs Paganism – a while back Razib said that Hinduism was not simply inchoate Indic Paganism.
I have to say that to some extent I agree, but I think he overestimates its internal development. My theory is that “Hinduism” as we understand it was a result of post-vedic Brahmical cults trying to explain their beliefs in the terms of the Śramaṇas, either to them, or against them.
With the end of the Vedic period there is a solid period in which we actually see very little in the way of Hindu Iconography. There are descriptions of cults, like those of the Vṛṣṇi heroes, but it isn’t until much later that we see them actually depicted. Similarly, in the South, there were still very “shintoesque” local cults that continued to thrive (continued megalithic until first centuries of common era). Even in South India today there are plenty of village temples that are unaltered, and a simple stone or pillar enshrines a local deity (though they today tend to be associated with more pan-Indic deities.)
However, there is very little from the early classical period that indicates that these forms of worship had merged with the Brahmanical forms of religion, leading to a kind of triple division of between Śramaṇas, Brāhmaṇas, and local cults. At some point by the Gupta period, however, we see a merger of vedic deities into local cults. This creates a kind of scholar-priest class presiding over the recognisable “temple religion” we might understand as Hinduism today.
As the Śramaṇas were the dominant intellectual strain, and the largest influence on outside invaders and neighbouring societies, the Brāhmaṇas now had to start explaining their beliefs in these terms, which creates what we recognise as “Hinduism” today.
I’ve read your views closely, but I think there is a significant gap. “Hinduism” may not be inchoate paganism, but you’re assuming that it has seriously departed from paganism. Vedanta etc were relatively elite beliefs, and until the 1950s, the majority praxis resembled inchoate paganism. It wasn’t until broadcast media that the average villager had much of a conception of religion outside their village.
It’s the same as Shinto, which for most people was just better organised animism, more like Totoro than Spirited Away. The more organised forms were never part of mainstream practice, but existed in an attempt to explain native religion in Buddhist and Taoist terms.
CreativeLogical
4 years ago
Where does one get a DNA analysis done completely privately?
Is there any company that will provide you the report and delete the master copy completely?
The closest I have seen is https://nebula.org/whole-genome-sequencing/
But even they keep the copy in their database and supposedly allow you to control/sell it. Not good enough for me.
Brown
4 years ago
i have been reading comments to pepe escobar’s article in unz review. might be some of you are also contributing comments. although the article is pedestrian, many comments show a deep bias against indians. who is this malla?, posting very long comments!!
Unz is either a Mossad-sponsored honeytrap for WNs or he is the incarnation of Bobby Fischer. Depending on my mood when I wake up, I oscillate between the two explanations.
More generally, his website is extremely pro-China. He was very early on in pushing the conspiracy theory that the US was the one who tried to genetically engineer a virus to kill millions of Chinese but it backfired and mutated.
In other words, don’t be surprised about the bias on that site.
lol I remember him from India vs. china IQ puzzle debate that spans thousands of pages lmfao. Same dude.
But you’ve got to admit he is part of a tiny minority. The blog is pretty pro China. also, lower castes are trashed by pretty much everyone. No one is egalitarian pro India
Rec1Man is like a caricature of a self-hating Indian guy, trying to differentiate based on his caste (probably a Brahmin)
There is boarding school (Shantibhavan) started by an Indian American businessman that comprises of 95% Tamil Dalits and enrols the poorest of the poor based solely on need (no IQ selection)
According to people who fixate on IQ as some sort of immutable characteristic (and just ignore the Flynn effect, circularity etc) like that Rec1man guy these kids should have an IQ that is lot lower than the Indian average of 84 right ?
Since Rec1man thinks Brahmins are 2sd higher than average maybe Dalits are 1sd lower. So let’s say 70.
Well school has been running for over 20 years to a lot of the early batches have gone on to become professionals and you can find videos online. There was a Netflix documentary.
Go have a look and let me know if you think the kids have an average IQ of 70.
“IQ realists” are engaging in motivated reasoning to reaffirm their own prejudiced views of people.
I don’t know what India’s true average is but 84 is kinda bs and mainly based on Richard Lynn’s works. He used some very dumb sources and methods to come up with the IQ scores (already posted about it in the past). He’s highly criticized in general.
Methodology aside, I don’t view the 84 figure as set in stone, as I am not entirely convinced that IQ is measuring what it purports to measure.
To use a Machine Learning analogy I think it may be measuring the relevance of the pre-test training data, in addition to the quality of the neural network architecture.
It is strange that the Flynn effect is the strongest on more supposedly culture neutral g-loaded tests like ravens progressive matrices.
It is a 2 sd increase in the last 100 years in Europe, so it’s not a small effect.
I think we need to be careful with statistical constructs in general. People talk about IQ like it is height, it isnt.
I think most (almost all?) Unz.com commenters are Steve Sailer commenters, and if you’ve read Sailer for a while (I encountered his writing in the mid-2000s), he and his blog commenters have an “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom”-like attitude towards India and Indians.
Anyway, why does it matter that a bunch of random commenters on the internet (all on the white nationalist spectrum) dislike India?
thewarlock
4 years ago
lol Unz has always had a hate boner for Indians. The comments tell the same story as the article.
Violet
4 years ago
Last week there was a discussion about white-presenting vs. White-passing.
Many South Indians are black-presenting (I am not sure if any took up to be black-passing given all the stories of people passing as WOC).
I am curious to hear if there are any 1.5 or 2nd gen Americans with this experience.
Someone like Russel Peters (comedian) can be black-passing if they chose to.
Does anyone think future Indian-Americans will try black-passing for competitive advantage?
it’s taboo to pass as black if you are indian American, but i have heard of cases of ppl who do it besides mindy kaling’s brother. the best story is a woman (Bangladeshi) who hooked up with a guy who she had assumed was black but it turned out he was tamil. he just shaved his head and wore ‘black’ style clothing and spoke in a black inflection. he did it cuz it was easier to find women to hookup. with (see. above)
but i’m brown enough if i shave my head i think i can pass as a black American. one time at a Mexican place they referred to me in Spanish when my head was shaved as ‘the black guy’
“Jessica Krug, the white George Washington University professor who faked being Black, resigned Wednesday. Krug revealed she was actually white in a Medium post last week. * * *
“The university announced Krug’s resignation in a tweet. She’s also been removed from the university website.
“* * * In June, Krug called into a New York City Council meeting, called herself “Jess La Bombalera” and presented herself as a Latina woman.”
Did Quaid-e-Azam want Pakistan to be a secular or an Islamic state? – Dr.Ishtiaq Ahmed
principia
4 years ago
IMHO, the only reason why some desis can ‘pass’ as black is because Americans are so ignorant about them (still). There may be extreme outliers (as that Bangladeshi girl who fell for a black-presenting Bangladeshi man) who can genuinely pass, but even Mindy Kaling’s brother definitely wasn’t black.
It is *not* about the skin tone. It’s the facial structure. If you see enough desis you can definitely tell who is and who isn’t black in the vast majority of cases, even for very dark people. I assume as more desis become more common in pop culture (which is still far from the case), these opportunities for ‘passing’ will start to fade.
Also height length index. African blacks have long heads wrt skull height. Not always but on average, while south Indians are usually hypsicranic (the opposite).
anyway, if you are an immigrant, you walk differently than Americans. so that’s a tell. i had a friend who saw a black guy at a math conference which was rare. but he realized something was off with the way he walked, and it turned out to be a very dark south indian academic.
Yeah that’s why 1.5gen or 2nd gen Americans are a different matter.
If not for cultural markers, it’s hard to tell. Like that Tamil guy, people may try it for other advantages.
I have seen a few 1.5gen Sri Lankan Tamils who can absolutely pass as Blacks if they chose to. But then, their Tamil wins out when they hear anyone speaking Tamil.
About that supposed ’84 Indian IQ’ thing that someone referenced, which originated from Lynn. Aside from his serious methodological flaws which have been mentioned, it’s worth bringing up the fact that Indian-Singaporeans earn as much, if not more, than ethnic Chinese despite mostly coming from poor indentured servants.
There has been an influx in the last 30 years of more skilled Indian migrants, but even if you look at 1990 earnings, Indians were barely 10% behind the Chinese.
So if Indians from a very poor and disadvantaged background can rise to that level, then there are good reasons to be long-term optimistic about India. I am that, just as I am short- to medium-term pessimistic about India due to the state governments’ utter failure to properly educate their children.
1) india is the home of cretinism. the average is suppressed by bad nutrition/hygiene (the until recent ubiquity of outdoor defection might. be underestimated hit to child dev)
2) India is genetically diverse enough that average for a quant trait is not useful. some group are higher some lower. china is homogeneous enough average is more useful
3) seems consistent that when you take unselected/filtered indians and Chinese the latter do do better on psychometric tests, though in some places gap is not large. in. the USA the earliest Chinese and Japanese communities were from poor classes without land, but these became the core of the ‘model minority’
“In ‘How many lives would a more normal president have saved?’ New York Times columnist Ross Douthat wonders how many Americans died because of President Trump’s “abnormal” reluctance to embrace stricter lockdown measures. Douthat’s speculations probably never get close to the likely correct answer, though, which is zero: a “more normal” president would have saved zero extra lives.
That’s because recent studies find little evidence that differences in lockdown policies have had any effect on the pandemic.
It’s a mystery why governments were and remain eager to plunge along a path with such meager benefits to offset daunting costs. The costs include not only the worst world recession in modern times but also the emergency powers states have seized to enforce the lockdowns and the resulting loss of civil liberties by citizens.
The citizens’ loss has been the state’s gain. A new study finds that governments have declared emergencies mainly because of the new powers they stand to gain, not the severity of the pandemic.”
@Milan Todorovic
I have no problem in talking about Steppe or genetics. What is true is true. However, your posts on Indian issue — that have nothing to do with Vinca/Balto Slavics — are not right. If you have anything to say regarding Indians — good or bad — you are welcome, but won’t it be great if you can limit yourself to topics that the post mentions? After all, OPs expect discussion regarding what they have written, and it is disrespectful if random matters are discussed on their posts. You can post whatever you want in Open Thread.
Also, swastika has been used in India since before Harappan times. So, I don’t know what you wish to say through it. Random similarities mean nothing on their own.
@Milan Todorovic
Since you asked when the earliest Swastika is found in India: The earliest evidence of Swastika in Madhya Pradesh, India is dated to at least 10,000 B.C. — if not earlier — suggesting indigenous origin of swastika .This predates Vinca by 5000-6000 years, and it is at least contemporary to or predates Ukraine Swastika. Furthermore, it was wrong on my part to post such a harsh message earlier, and I recognise that I should not have done so.
Link: http://www.iitkgpsandhi.org/Swastika_Monograph%202016.pdf
The spread of swastika in India is probably associated with the spread of Iran mesolithic/epipaleolithic populations into India. I think that the spread of swastika ultimately shows the spread of ane ancestry just like in the Americas. Maybe also associated with the spread of the micro blade culture types which originated in northern Asia. This association is more clear in Europe where it is easy to distinguish ane based groups from those that are not while the association in India may not appear as clear because of multiple ane waves. At least 2, maybe even more.
@DaThang
I don’t know much about Indian ancestry, but I would definitely like to learn more:
1. Is AASI also ANE?
2. Also, is SE Asian ancestry from which AASI branched off also ANE?
3. When was ANE formed?
4. Is there any book with chart that mentions all these ancestries?
ANE comes from ANS. ANS has some ancestry from an eastern non-African source. It seems to be Salkhit though the Tianyuan yDNA (K2b) looked like it would be a close match.
Some west Eurasian (maybe Aurignacian) + Some ENA (maybe Salkhit) = ANS
ANS -> ANE (might or might not involve Dzudzuana-like input)
Proto WHG + basal Eurasian = Dzudzuana.
Dzudzuana + Basal + ANE (+ maybe other minor inputs) = Iran mesolithic.
Iran mesolithic/epipaleolithic could have inherited the Swastika from ANE.
The ubiquity of the swastika symbol is easily explained by it being a very simple symbol that will arise independently in any basketweaving society. The swastika is a repeating design, created by the edges of the reeds in a square basket-weave. Other theories attempt to establish a connection via cultural diffusion or an explanation along the lines of Carl Jung’s collective unconscious.
While the existence of the swastika symbol in the Americas may be explained by the basket-weave theory, its American presence weakens the cultural diffusion theory. While some have proposed that the swastika was secretly transferred to North America by an early seafaring civilization on Eurasia, a separate but parallel development is considered the most likely explanation.
Yet another explanation is suggested by Carl Sagan in his book Comet. Sagan reproduces an ancient Chinese manuscript that shows comet tail varieties: most are variations on simple comet tails, but the last shows the comet nucleus with four bent arms extending from it, recalling a swastika. Sagan suggests that in antiquity a comet could have approached so close to Earth that the jets of gas streaming from it, bent by the comet’s rotation, became visible, leading to the adoption of the swastika as a symbol across the world.
Bob Kobres in Comets and the Bronze Age Collapse (1992) contends that the swastika-like comet on the Han Dynasty silk comet atlas was labeled a “long tailed pheasant star” due to its resemblance to a bird’s foot., and further suggests that many swastika and swastika-like motifs may have been representations of bird tracks, including many of those found by Schliemann.
Barbara G. Walker, author of The Woman’s Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects, claims that the crux dissimulata, an early swastika, represented the four winds. Concerning the short-armed version of this symbol, known as the gammadion because it is made up of four Greek gammas, Walker says this symbol was an emblem of the ancient goddess and probably represented “the solstices and equinoxes, or the four directions, four elements, and four divine guardians of the world.”
“””
It seems, you as a recent visitor, should first study this blog and find out who is writing what. I already suggested Razib to introduce the induction procedure at BP, where rookies would be assigned a buddy to work with them. You do not need to patronize me and give me directions what I could or should write. I do write about Euro-SA historical connections (especially ancient) and historical falsifications. I also make parallels related to practicing the taqiya in Europe and SA. Rarely, I write about global topics (e.g. culture, geostrategy, military, etc). I do not write about modern Indians although I know personally many of them. In the past, I wrote about English genocide in India where they killed several dozens of millions of people, about Churchill’s opinion about Indians, etc. I even offered to make a first draft of the request document for apology from British Crown and Parliament for their past deeds. No one was interested to be involved probably because of the fear of losing their residency status or future benefits. After that, I do not write about contemporary Indians because all other know these things much better than me.
I don’t understand the statement about me negating (?) the link btw. Indians (?) and so-called Balto-Slavics(who are they?). The fact is that ancient Slavics (=Serbs) have the same genetics with 150+ million SAsians. This should be explained. You may suggest your knowledge, opinion or speculation. The fact is that swastika was found in Vinca and it was a ‘letter’ in the world oldest alphabet (=rising sun, infinite energy). I did not say that Vinca’s swastika is the oldest. Who lived in today’s Ukraine? Do you know the boundaries of Vinca’s civilisation? And, there was a swastika 5000 years before Vinca in Harappa (it means cca 11000 BC)? Tell us something about Harappa in 11000BC, I would be interested to know. Tell us how, when and by whom the swastika from Harappa was transferred to Vinca (and Ukraine). Or, you can tell us where future Indians lived during the Ice Age (12000+ BC)?
You can make a comparison with Lepenski Vir, ‘the oldest city in Europe’, at the same time. It would be probably the last from me, it is pretty time consuming going back to square one and repeating basics again and again.
Your BS is getting ridiculous. Everything is Ancient Serbs to you. You have the most warped and racist attitude that strips others of their achievements, and steals them for you own. Your ridiculous and incoherent ramblings should stay in your ultra-nationalist troll farm.
It seems you are definitely the top serbofob here, overtaking all taqiyamen. You should ask for professional help. I only said above that Slavics, before this term was invented in the 7th cAC were Serbs, based on the language they spoke. In the 8th cAC, first of future Slavics’ names appeared was the Russian name, other came much later. Also, the fact is the same genetics btw Serbs and millions of SAsians. You are occupied with your hatred and unable to say anything specific. Are you saying that this genetics similarity is untrue? Can you state in which direction genes went 4000 years ago (either way is good for me) or give us a simple answer – who were Aryans? East Europeans?
That isn’t English, and barely makes any sense, so I am guessing at what you might be trying to ramble about. I have no idea what a Serbofop is, so you might want to get some English lessons before typing nonsense.
The Slavs never called themselves Serbs prior to the 7th century, and their original language was not Serbian, and Vinca was not Serbian. The ethnogenesis of the Slavs is agreed to be in the Pripyet marshes region, with the Serbs emerging amongst the South Slavic people in a migration south.
Get it through your head – Vinca wasn’t Serbian, the Steppe people were not Serbian, Alexander the Great was not Serbian, Constantine was not Serbian, and ancient Indians were not Serbian. Your anachronistic geographical references are as stupid as saying that Moctezuma was Spanish.
I predicted long time ago that oit if continue their way would finish in lunacy. You are such example. What is the significance of any your opinion about history if you do not recognize the existence of Aryans? Because you are avoiding to explain the same genetics btw some Indians and Slavics. It is illusory asking who Aleksander Karanovic the Great was. Why don’t you comment on Francesco’s comment?
What remains? Just plain, naked, a la taqiyamen serbofobia (or serbophobia).
@Milan Todorovic
What do you get by posting stuff that is patently wrong? Stop denigrating Vincans; they have nothing to do with Aryans; embrace their Anatolian identity and revel in their accomplishment. Your abuse and slander of Vincans is seriously reprehensible.
@Violet
What is this Big Dipper rotation hypothesis? My understanding is that Swastika is a common symbol created independently; if I knew about ancestral streams and their charts I could be more sure.
@Milan Todorovic
IVC originated in Mehrgarh, which formed pre 7000 B.C. (exact date unsure) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh) Were there other influences on Mehrgarh too — like from interior of India? Nothing is known. You ask people about AASI genetics, they become quiet because they don’t know. Archaeologically, India is a virgin territory; Indians are busy trying to make a living rather than understand past.
Now, Harvard researchers have been trying to tie IVC with Elamite civilization; even that has failed. Now it is impossible as IVC does not have Anatolian ancestry. Right now the only thing we know is that Iran_N and AASI that descended from east asia mixed. Reich has been hypothesizing that AASI was the first to arrive, but we don’t know that for sure. Not many people know that he has been consistently wrong on India since 2009. So, I don’t know how much we can rely on him.
Agree. Its not a certainty that AASI arrived first. Ydna H has its brothers mostly in the west. Could be basal eurasian arrived first or something similar to crown eurasian.
NREGA, much-maligned by the neoliberal ‘right’, proves to be a lifesaver for India’s poor. The Indian Express has a great deep-dive, travelling to West Bengal and talking to the families there.
Desis cant pass as Blacks to even the most race-blind observer IMO. A good test would be to place these so-called Black passing Desis in a SSA country and vice-versa and then see if the natives recognize them as their own. It wouldn’t work. Also, as far as America (and the New World) goes, race is a complex and touchy subject. African Americans in particular have a long and complex ancestral history, and people who identify as “Black” in America range from Barack Obama to Wentworth Miller; this makes for a lot of flexibility and a certain “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” approach when it comes to Black self-identification and ancestry. It also allows a whole range of people, with different complexions from Black to White, and with different bone structures, facial features and skulls from Negroid to Caucasoid to pass as “Black” as well. Daniel Hale Williams anyone? The first “Black” surgeon to do an open-heart surgery successfully (and the first open heart surgery, period) and yet he doesn’t fit the description of even a “mixed” “Black” man according to most Americans.
The lack of familiarity with dark-skinned peoples, both dark-skinned Caucasians, Latinos, and Asians, also complicates things quite a bit, leading to some ignorant and uninformed people to make some truly dumb observations or guesses about someone’s ancestral background. Most people just assume that only SSA or heavily SSA-derived people can be darker than a Fitzpatrick 4 on the Fitzpatrick scale, when that is clearly not the case. People all across Eurasia, including many in MENA countries can have dark brown skin, sometimes bordering on an almost-Black complexion when heavily tanned. This isn’t something that is limited to South Asia. SE Asians and Latin Americans also have many people with very dark skin, even when they lack any Black ancestry. Would all of these people be classified as Black by outsiders? I don’t think so.
Besides, South Asians have 0% SSA/Black ancestry anyway, and lack the anthropological features of Black people; they don’t have a Negroid or Negroid-influenced skull, or prognathism, or the flared nostrils and wide and low bridge of the African “nose”; they dont have the same eye-shapes as Africans or the same spacing of the sockets, nor do they have the dentition found in Africans, nor the lips, nor the steatopygia commonly seen in many African men and women. They don’t have African hair texture, and they lack the wide foreheads that Africans often have as well. Furthermore, they lack the body and limb proportions and build of Africans as well, in addition to possessing different compositions of muscle fibers used in things like sprinting, and have different skin undertones and shades, as well as different genes for pigmentation as well.
If anything, even the Arabs, who all have varying levels of SSA ancestry, don’t pass as Black in the vast majority of cases, except when they have heavy amounts of SSA. African Americans like Colin Kaepernick have more than a passing resemblance to many Gulf Arabs due to obvious reasons and there’s plenty more where that came from. Arabs thus have a much better case for passing as “Black” than any South Asian. Add the “one-drop” rule and the complicated history of Black self-identification in the United States to the mix, and it further strengthens the case for the “Blackness” of Arabs. But this is on a case-by-case basis, and even then, not set in stone.
Rachel Dolezai sure fooled a lot of people by just getting a tan and a perm, yet she’s of full European descent, and there’s plenty more examples where that came from. So even European people without any Black ancestry can “pass” as Black in social settings in the New World/United States, but I dont think this means anything in the anthropological and “real” sense. Given all of this information, I dont think Vijay Chokalingam’s experience means anything as far as South Asians “passing for Black” is concerned. The same applies to other South Asians who try to pass as African American as well. Its an anomaly/fluke with no real significance for the racial classification and perception of South Asians, any more than it holds significance for Arabs, or Latinos/Hispanics, or dark SE Asians, or even Europeans with a Perm and a tan.
Brought over recently by Islamic rulers, most of them are in modern day Pakistan and are Muslim. But they are also present in Gujarat and Karnataka, where some even follow Hinduism.
Ah, but the Siddi are a hyper-minority of endogamous people that don’t really constitute a caste in the traditional sense, due to their huge amounts of SSA ancestry/isolation from others/ostracization in South Asian society. They are also a remnant of the Arab/East African Slave trade, when some Siddis were brought over to the West coast of the subcontinent, and many actually established their own little kingdoms for a short while, as the Siddis did in Janjira. On the whole, they don’t have much visibility in South Asian society, far less than even the Parsi, who have played a much more siginficant role despite being a small minority as well.
An actual African/South Asian mix that IS drawing attention in South Asia, or India to be specific, is Masaba Gupta, the illegitimate love-child born of a one-night stand to Neena Gupta and Vivian Richards. She apparently commands enough importance to merit her own high-production value Netflix show that portrays her as a celebrated fashion designer and socialite in Mumbai. Quite progressive for a South Asian-centric Netflix show.
I don’t think you have seen enough South Indian phenotypes to comment that desis can’t pass as black.
Many black people on Toronto subway and Bay Area transit mistook me for black. I am not an American born and so, my accent is a dead giveaway. I am as regular as any South Indian (I.e. you can’t pick me as stand out in any group pictures from back-home).
Also, it appears you don’t know enough Ethiopians to know how “Indian” they look. Be it facial structure or hair.
@Violet
I have read a lot of your posts, and I must say you are very knowledgeable. So, I thought about asking what do you know regarding Brain computer interface (BCI). Is it a promising technology?
Nowadays, Wireless Power Transfer + Back-scattering communication seems to be all the rage in BCI. Will there be an industry around it or will it die off?
The IQ discussion always makes me laugh. When most of the subcontinent is barely able to feed and clothe its populace, taking IQ tests at face value is really a rather low-IQ thing to engage in. Apart from the obvious things like malnutrition and disease, cultural and academic barriers due to poor access to education and generations of illiteracy further complicate things as well.
The other issue is, the Indian diaspora, which largely stems from a lower-caste and lower SES background in many cases, has done rather well for itself on the academic front and with SES status. Nearly all diaspora communities exceed the average SES of the natives, even in White-majority countries. In most cases, it is higher than East Asians as well. I don’t think this would have been possible had their genetic potential/genetic IQ not been at the very least, equal to other Asians, be they East or SE Asians. In fact, IIRC, the digit-span test that was administered to the children of South Asian immigrants/first generation of South Asians in America showed an average IQ higher than the Ashkenazim, and at the 80th percentile of the White American IQ. Keep in mind, this was done without collating data with respect to caste, but it is safe to say that the people sampled were definitely not all “Jats” or “Khatris” or “UP/Kashmiri/Gujarati/South Indian Brahmins” etc. In fact, they probably mirrored the Indian American community pretty nicely, which is to say that they represented low to middle-caste Gujaratis, Tamils, Telugus, Malayalis and Gangetic/Cow belt generic/lower castes pretty well, in addition to Bengalis as well.
Finally, I dont see why high-AASI folk would have lower IQ than their other Asian brethren. AASI is after all, a fundamentally “Asian” component, and as Razib stated once, deeply nested within the larger Asian cluster/race. As such, folks with large amounts of AASI ancestry as found among the non-Twice born and non-NWners, would only have higher IQs than those with less AASI. Take a look at the Nobel Laureates of India, none are NW elite castes, and with the exception of Sen, all are part of what is considered “lower caste” in the North/North West. Even the vast majority of the most erudite and academically successful Indian Americans dont hail from Brahmin castes with huge amounts of Steppe and InPe ancestry; on the contrary, a quick look at the prominent list of Indian Americans on Wikipedia shows that the vast majority are no different from the generic North Indian UP-wala or South Indian middle caste, and are even more admixed in many cases. Keeping in mind the fact that high SES is correlated with IQ, and the aforementioned average IQ of Indian Americans, and knowing that the vast majority of India’s population is concentrated in the North, which shares an AASI profile similar to most Indians in the South and East, I don’t see why the average IQ/genetic potential of Indians as a whole in not in the mid 90’s to 100 at the very least, which is not any different from White Americans, for instance.
also arguably the smartest brahmin groups are about as AASI as Gujarati mid caste like myself and the most AASI brahmins in India. So this stuff breaks down.
Anyway,one can still argue artificial selection pressures and endogamy all day. racialist have nothing better to do.
thewarlock
How AASI are the Saraswat Brahmins from MH/Goa/KT coast? (SB/GSB as they are called).
This community seems to be over represented in all things academics.(Perhaps second only to Bengalis and the Iyengar/Iyers)
Upper castes are over represented in the American diaspora. Which one are you referring to? UK?
As for india iq talk, I sound like a broken record by this point saying that it is more than half an sd above the commonly cited numbers. A good way to know for sure would be to do the polygemic tests on as many indian populations as possible. India has many distinct subpopulations and as razib said a singe number while it is obtainable will not be meaningful since group averages will differ within India. I would expect this not so meaningful result to be comparable to Latino averages which is more than 0.75 sd above what is commonly cited as the supposed indian amount. The exact polygenic score will vary as estimations improve over time but I anticipate that it will be in the Chilean or Argentinean range for the not so meaningful average value.
@DaThang, I think you posted it before, but do you have an email address I can reach you at? I need to learn from your big-brained wisdom. (And in case that comes across as patronizing or if it sounds facetious, its not, I promise.)
Real face of Jinnah: New book says he never wanted a united India
“Eventually when Partition happened, Jinnah complained about having received a “moth-eaten Pakistan”. But it appears that he wanted further division of India with a separate state for the Sikhs comprising the princely states in East Punjab and a separate Dravidistan in South India.
“His main offer was to agree to substantial autonomy for Sikhs if they agreed to support his demand for partition. Similarly, he encouraged the Dravidian leaders to demand a separate state – this idea was originally of Rahmat Ali. However, in early March 1940 when Dr Ambedkar and Periyar met Jinnah at his Bombay house, no agreement was reached to form an alternative party to the Congress. Both Ambedkar and Periyar were disappointed with Jinnah. Ambedkar wrote against Islam using very strong words which up until then he used for Hinduism’s notorious caste system,” Ahmed says
This was in keeping with the League’s ‘hostage theory’. “The assumption was that there would be substantial minorities in both India and Pakistan. That would mean that if Indian Muslims were coerced by Hindus in India, then Hindus in Pakistan would be given a tough time,” Ahmed explains. “Interestingly, on March 30, 1941 he was asked to explain what the fate of Muslims left in India would be… Jinnah in a fit of anger told them that he would make 2 crore Muslims taste martyrdom and be smashed in order to liberate 7 crores. The actual numbers left in India were 35 million,” Ahmed says.”
The secular Pak myth has been created by the present day Pakistani secularists to appropriate Jinnah (since Iqbal is totally out of bounds to them!) It is largely based on his non pious personal life but singularly pivots on that August speech.
I think this guy came on the you tube channel of Arvind Saharan.
The two main takeaways-
a) The speech was made mostly for the Western audience and was more of a pragmatic/political speech.
b) It was also directed to the Indian leadership…to prevent flooding Pak with millions of additional Mussalmans and creating resource problems. (another example of Jinnah’s pragmatism)
Make perfect sense.
I have seen many explanations as to how this speech does not fit the pattern of Jinnah’s actions and also all the rest of his speeches/utterances, but these two points do not get made often enough.
I got into this twitter argument with one such secular Pak Nationalist named Yasser Latif Hamdani. I tried to pick apart his ( and by extension Ayesha Jalal’s) arguments but then he started abusing me.
I wished him well and got off his timeline.
Frankly, perpetuating this myth is better for them as a nation!
I would rather have them build Jinnah up as some kind of secular humanist idol and make Pak in that image than follow the Zia model.
I only discovered this blog last week over the long weekend but I think I have learned so much from the thoughtful discussions here. Unfortunately a lot of it has confirmed by already held opinions, but at least has reinforced my reasoning with additional data/insights ( special thanks to Razib, Warlock, Slapstik,Apthk, Gaurav, Burnt out and many more) . I hope more Pakistanis engage with the Blog.
Oh, the Blog also explains why I feel this strange affinity to the Serbians!
Anyway, speaking of racial dynamics, it seems that the Jats have been making a name for themselves for quite some time now, even in Hollywood blockbusters like the ones directed by Steven Spielberg.
The Lost World, which is the sequel to Jurassic Park, had a main character played by a White British guy no less, named Ajay Sidhu, Sidhu being a common Jatt surname. Surprisingly enough, they didn’t alter his appearance for the role, apart from a slight tan that is evident in the film. And he looks fully Jatt as well. Still from the film:?itok=1odfca5L
I thought it was incredible that Spielberg recognized way back in 1996 that there were different races in India, and that one of these races was the great Caucasian race, represented by Jatts in the NW of India. He even gave the character a Hindu Jatt background and name and chose a WASP who looks and easily passes as a Hindu Jatt to play the role. I didn’t realize Hollywood was so aware and culturally sensitive back in the 90s, not to mention the fact that even some WASP individuals can pass as Jatts with ease.
Of course, Jeff Goldblum, despite being a Jewish Caucasian, also easily passes as a Hindu Jatt. Reminds me of my uncle actually, almost a doppelgänger of his. We have some connections with the Semitic Chosen People that I can’t explain. I’ve seen quite a few Ashkenazim that pass as Jatt with flying colors.
Ajay met an untimely demise in the film, like many other characters, but he was quite memorable for me, even as a child, when I was unaware of how his Indian identity was so significant in a social sense. I was just glad to see a familiar name in a dinosaur movie. They even got his accent right, instead of using a caricature of an accent, they used one typical of educated NWners: https://youtu.be/raXWIDbugag
Man you think Spielberg went from depicting Indians as monkey brain eaters in temple of doom to understanding the minute details of Jaat samaj surnames And accent ?
And then hired a white actor to play the Jaat in recognition of Jatt steppe ancestry / looks?
You are confusing Spielberg with some other director I am afraid.
“We have some connections with the Semitic Chosen People that I can’t explain”
>>> I wrote before about Ramzes’s II daddy Seti (Sethos) II, city of Kedem, etc.
Ugra
4 years ago
Read some online commenter recently that Indians are the new Jews in US media depiction.
They are untrustworthy, penny-pinching and dishonest (Apu). But they are also intelligent, prudish and wonkish (Koothrapali). Glad that Hasan Minhaj regularly show up the supposedly anti- M acts and behaviour of everyday Indians. Gives the average American something new to digest.
Stuff I found the most concerning( I haven’t heard the third one anywhere else, I’d like to know if you guys think it’s true/likely) –
Beijing intends to take control of the entirety of the Himalayan massif, the South China Sea and Taiwan. There needs to be a military victory as in 1962, not a stalemate as in Vietnam in 1979. The South China Seas are crawling with naval craft of multiple countries, including India, and is at present therefore a difficult location to score a swift triumph. As for Taiwan, from almost the start of her first term in office, President Tsai Ing-wen has focused on linking her country to the US defence supply chain…………. in the absence of a clear understanding between India and the US about mutual security, the Himalayan massif seems to be the option offering a higher chance of a PLA success in 2021 than clearing the South China Sea of foreign navies by the PLA Navy or an attempted takeover or even blockade of Taiwan.
Much of the difference between what took place in 1962 and what happened in 1971 was the result of the Indo-Soviet Treaty that was the brainchild of former Ambassador to the USSR, Durga Prasad Dhar. The treaty ensured the entry of the USSR into any conflict involving India and a hostile force, and this was sufficient to keep China out of the ring despite plaintive cries from both Yahya Khan and Henry Kissinger for Beijing to send in its troops now that India had committed so many of its forces to the ongoing conflict with Pakistan
The not insubstantial task given to Moscow by Beijing is to ensure that New Delhi does not enter into a security pact that involves the United States, whether this be a bilateral treaty or as part of a newly formalised Quadrilateral Alliance. In the absence of such a treaty, it would be problematic for Washington to ensure the degree of logistical support that would be needed for the Indian armed forces (Army, Navy and Air Force) to take the battle into the territory of the attacker and humiliate the latter.
Narasingha Deva
4 years ago
Indian Solar Module Manufacturer Lands $105 Million US Order
theorize possibly mine. I’m K1a, so the same as Colbert and Katie Couric. But I don’t know. It could also be Iranic related.
Narasingha Deva
4 years ago
@Razib
Does editing a comment multiple times make it take a long time to appear. I had written a comment on the India-China conflict some time ago and it hasn’t appeared yet (the edits were mainly regarding the spacing as I needed to differentiate it into 3 parts)
timepaas
4 years ago
What do people think of chip transplants and brain computer interface technology’s potential? Is it just hype, or is there any future? Recently, chips were transplanted in chimpanzees and pigs. Powering them is a problem, but wireless power transfer and back-scatter communication is now attempting to solve the problem.
If you are thinking of Neuralink, since it is linked to Musk, there is obvious hype. But from a technical stand point, there is some progress as well. From what I know, Musk has recruited a lot of smart people and started developing a platform which implements some of the low hanging fruit. Brain computer interfaces are actually very primitive and it is hard to design them properly because of low S/N ratio. It is very hard to classify the electrical/electromagnetic signals. We also don’t know of a good way to record and store the electrical signals generated in the brain.
UW actually had a good group doing computational neuroscience. If you are joining for masters there, its worth doing a side project there. I am sure they need some student who is familiar with coding.
This is a gleam of hope for a group in Balkan which had a half of brains removed couple hundreds of years ago and this became a hereditable feature. This sounds much more promising than the stem cell approach to regrow the other half. My full support to continue this research and let’s hope that not much timepass until we get some tangible results.
@Chittadhara
Thanks for your comment. Yes, UW is a nice place for BCI as well anything related to CS. Are you connected to UW? You know a lot about it. What do you think how many years it will take for commercialization of BCI? I think it will 5-10 years or so.
Don’t know if anyone else knows him, in my circles he was well respected. He seemed like a rare thing, a truly genuine gentleman. A social activist, working to bring harmony as well as to address injustice. God bless you and keep you, may you find your eternal peace.
+1
Another fun positive thing about him, he was always dressed handsomely in bright Saffron. Never a wrinkle, never a stain!
Today is just a day to offer condolences and solace to his comrades and his followers. (He had no family as a Sanyasi that I know)
justanotherlurker
4 years ago
APthk’s tone has mellowed but his content is getting even more cringe:)
Its a shame we didn’t have social media around during the Indian Mutiny. Imagine the sympathy points that could be aroused from Brits back in England, as they read the tearful account of a loyal sepoy’s sufferings, abused by the masses of Hindu and Muslim “extremists”, who turned their weapons against their foreign British occupiers, and would not spare the poor “native” collaborator.
I mean for a Pakistani U surely hold strong views about Indian mutiny. It would almost seem as if Pakistanis and their forefathers fought for Indian freedom. Lol.
That;s the fate of all de-racinated Hindu communities.
Milan Todorovic
4 years ago
Re: Wends (Wiltzes, Vendi) (cont.)
Pundits simply cannot get enough of knowledge…
We mentioned about the time when Wends were converted from paganism to Christianity, that English Wiltshire got its name from them, that they founded and lived in Brandenburg (i.e. Branibor), etc.
For pundits would be interesting a Wends’ practice of satya similar to their cousins in SAsia. There is one description of ‘sati’ in a Serbian tribe Kuci in India.
Wiki says: “Historical sources about the Wends are scanty, although, for example, St. Boniface 745-746. In a letter to King Eltibald of England, he describes them as follows: And in Veneda, that worst and most terrible human race, wives and husbands love and respect each other so much that women, when their husbands die, do not want to live. And among them is respected a woman who inflicts death on herself with her own hands and burns on the same bonfire with her husband. “[2]
Researchers can find interesting information about ‘sati’ but we can also see very deep roots of serbofobia which was present long before that time and continued up to today including contemporary BP pages.
Just a few other interesting things. Wends are also known earlier as Adriatic Veneti. They founded the city of Venice (i.e. Venetia, Venezzia) and this is still Italian name for Serbs. They were very famous as merchants, so the term ‘wendare’ still means ‘trading’. The name of ‘wending machine’ came from the name of Wends.
Apart from Vendi (Wends), there are so many other names (one researcher found 750 – seven hundred fifty!!!!) under which Serbian speaking tribes were known. One of them, probably a variation of Vendi (Wends), was Indi (Inds).
fulto
4 years ago
@Milan Todorovic
Sati History (from the paper “A Suicide By Self-Immolation — Psychosocial Perspectives”)
“”
Sati is commonly believed to be a Hindu practice. The custom of widow-burning, however, existed in several cultures, including the Teutons, Wends (7), ancient Slavs and Scandinavians (12). The kings of UR, the ancient Chinese and some early Indo-European people buried or burnt a man’s widow, horses and other cherished possessions with his corpse in order that he might have all that he loved and needed in the other world (4).
“”
Calling everything under the sun Serbian — without proof — does not make it so. Your language cannot be the oldest as it has some of the least number words from PIE — less that even Baltic, and behind a lot of other IE languages.
Who were Wends and ancient Slavs (this is oxymoron)? Who were Scandinavians (have a look the official title of Swedish and Danish kings for several hundreds of years until 1973). The reference (St. Boniface) says that Serbs (Wends) practiced sati and even you confirmed the same. What is the problem?
Italians still call Serbs – Veneti (usually one of the main streets in their cities is Via Veneto). Venetia (Venezzia actually means Serbia). All Serbian medieval kings had the names URos Stefan I, II, etc. Hungarians took this UR from Serbs with a meaning ‘Sir’.
@ Milan Todorovic
Do you know any history? You don’t even know that Ur was a Sumerian city state; stop posting claptrap — a standard-fare of yours. Is being Serb so bad that you now have to claim Mesopotamia too?
Furthermore, Slavics descended from Baltics — long after other IE cultures were formed. I know you won’t get the order. Cultures that are older than yours practised it; you even lived side by side with Iranians. A tribe of Slavics developed this culture indigenously — or picked it up somewhere, e.g., Teutons, Iranians, or Chinese — long after Steppe migrants came to India. For your information: It is the Steppe theory and not Vinca/Anatolian theory that is mainstream.
Narasingha Deva
4 years ago
Toyota halts India expansion, blaming ‘we don’t want you’ taxes
Piyush Goyal had said something about a gst rate cut for automobiles, maybe this statement is just to motivate the govt.
Francesco Brighenti
4 years ago
A new (2020) hypothesis on the relationship between Indo-Aryans and the BMAC people:
https://tinyurl.com/y4h4dgqo
A. Lubotsky, “What Language Was Spoken by the People of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex?”, in Paul W. Kroll, Jonathan A. Silk (eds.), _“At the Shores of the Sky”: Asian Studies for Albert Hoffstädt_, Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2020, pp. 5-11.
Quoting from p. 11:
“It seems attractive to assume that the southward movement of Indo-Aryans was simultaneous with the decline of the BMAC and was even triggered by it, since the profound changes in the economy of the BMAC would have forced the Indo-Aryan pastoralists to look for new markets. In the situation of an economic and political crisis, it is only to be expected that in their movement, the Indo-Aryans were joined by a sizable group of the BMAC people, who would bring their culture and the agricultural lifestyle with them. […] As we know from major people movements of the past, they often were multiethnic, and a joint movement of Indo-Aryans and the BMAC people would not be surprising at all. It would be nice to hear from the geneticists whether this scenario is in line with the genetic evidence. In view of the many samples from the necropolis in Gonur, we will undoubtedly hear more about this issue in the future. Up till now, the linguistic scenarios have time and again found support in the analyses of ancient DNA. Will this also here be the case?”
OIT will be disappointed because it obviously presents that Aryans existed. It is unclear why is more often used the term ‘Indo-Iranian’ as an alternative to ‘Aryan’.
And everything started from Proto-Indo-Iranian (about 2000BC…what’s happened with Indo-European?). It means (Proto)Aryans language(s) > Aryan (Indian wing) > Sanskrit > Middle Indic (Pali) > (Hindi, Bengali, Marathi, Sinhala, Panjabi, etc.)
To my knowledge, pretty accurate, I guess, grazie Francesco.
PS. I mentioned that is unclear why the diagram started in 2000BC with a ‘Proto-Indo-Iranian’ language. This ‘Proto’ is always clumsy and often a way to avoid using the right term. For e.g. we all speak Proto-Martian because one day some humans will leave on Mars. I wonder which is this PII language which connects Indo and Iranian branches of the Aryan language and which, at that time already had its alphabet for a couple thousands of years?
@Francesco Brighenti
I am sorry that I am forced to comment by @Milan Todorovic. Anything is possible, but Lubotsky’s scenario is unlikely as India does not have BMAC ancestry. Indo-Aryans (IA) — according to Narasimhan et al. — bypassed BMAC is a genetic fact. They made a journey of 2500-3000 kms from Eurasian Steppe in ~1700 BC through Inner Asian Moutain Corridor — exited it in ~1700 BC — to India, then doubled back to Turan after mixing in India, all happening in ~1700 BC.
Also, in Turan, IA then magically converted themselves to Steppe Late Bronze Age ancestry (SLBA) — an ancestry formed by mixing with East Asians. How many do you suppose they were in the first place? You know, India had a bigger population than Europe at that time.
Moreover, we see SLBA ancestry in Turan after 1500 BC; it must be Iranians as they lived in Turan later on — not Aryans — historically. Only time will tell though.
From what you posted, Lubotsky forgot about Iranians; they have to arrive at some point of time, you know; this makes this scenario practically impossible.
@Milan Todorovic
Stop posting misinformation — there is enough as it is in the world. The accepted theory is Steppe Theory. Last I checked Vinca is not on Steppe — that too long way off from it. Vinca also has Anatolian ancestry. This makes it impossible for them to have anything to do with Aryans. I earlier thought you genuinely did not know this, but now, I see you won’t even recognise that you are wrong. I must say: I am appalled at the perpetuation of lies by you. Please continue on saying: Slavic — that has less number of PIE words than even Baltic — is PIE.
Fwiw I do think that Balkans farmers had an impact on mlba people even though the victorious party in this interaction and conflict were the eba ancestors of the later mlba indo europeans so the majority of the culture still comes from eba indo europeans.
@DaThang
Yes, there was female mediated Anatolian ancestry in Yamnaya, but it appeared after the culture was formed (source is unclear). Also, Vincans — primarily having Anatolian descent — have the following Ydna haplogroups:
G2a2a1, G2a2a1a, G2a2a1a2a, G2a2a1a, G2a2b2a1a, H2
In that sense, Vinca/Anatolian theory is genetically not possible.
No I am talking about impact on mlba like Sintashta.
Milan Todorovic
4 years ago
This day, 102 years ago the Thessaloniki front in the WW1 was broken. The First and the Second Serbian armies were the bearers of the breakthrough, which turned out to be decisive for the collapse of the Central Powers in the First World War – a month and a half later, Austro-Hungary, and soon Germany, capitulated. Serbian forces cut off the Bulgarian army and forced Bulgaria to lay down its arms on September 30, 1918. During the liberation of the homeland, the Serbs acted so quickly that the French command begged the Serbian Supreme Command to slow down the progress.
In the WW1 Serbia lost 1/3 of its total population or 55% of male population plus 9% of crippled.
Harshvardhan
4 years ago
Have an argument with my sister( ultra left) and me ( centre right) about what is right to say after my cousin said to my sister when she was lifting weights jokingly was” are you doing ego-lifting” and she flipped and conversation was kind of outraging and triggering when i said about Freedom of Speech and she said freedom of speech is” freedom to speak but don’t speak what is offensive to people”
She is kind of against my father and me ( could be justified) and particularly when i told her that i voted for Modi.
Is somebody the same situation as me?
How can we solve these kind of Family problems?
@Harshvardhan
Solution is: Experience and Knowledge. Right and left opinions are both right and wrong in a way.
“”
If you’re not a communist at the age of 20, you haven’t got a heart.
If you’re still a communist at the age of 30, you haven’t got a brain.
“”
The above quote is not fully applicable to Indian situation. Anyways, my advice is:
1. You should try the path of education and dialogue.
2. Encourage her to be friends with people who share your opinion.
3. Celebrities have a lot of influence; she maybe following her role model. Try to change that.
Yeah I think May cause i am unemployed i have more time to read and listen podcasts discussing issues of FOE.
I was asking do these kind of situation emerges in other families as well. These situation can cause family tensions.
She have said that Quran is a wonderful text( it could be) and Mahabharat is fake you know exactly the online and offline circles are. Everything is racist and sexist and transphobic without even thinking what the person is saying. The intention and context matters i think.
She have said that Quran is a wonderful text( it could be)
she’s lying tho. koran optimized for recitation. not narrative (look at the ordering of the text). it’s like the hebrew bible. parts of it are good narratives. but the priestly parts are boring a.f., but those sections are there for religious ritual instruction and law. not to be interesting
What you are describing is not normal. She seems to hate you all for some reason. It could be the result of peer group influence too; it can make a person very weird. I hope everything works out for your family.
Yeah but not in the same sentence and not at the same time.
She said it’s wonderfully written. I guess that’s influence of her friends and she probably haven’t read it.
I haven’t as well( i tried to ) but i have been in Zakir Naik vs ex-muslims game long enough to know something about it.
She’s is probably very anti-Modi cause of her comments or jokes of when i got a nail injury that ” that’s happens when you vote for modi” but i don’t give a damn.
Question is : Do people in the age of social media even living in the same family can have so drastic different views on Religion,India etc that can cause familial tensions?
Oracle’s Ticktok deal is looking like Indulgences being sold to ByteDance by the US Government-Corporate mafiosi. It will do nothing to address underlying problems.
Thoughts?
I don’t know how much of the brown pundits readers watch Indian mainstream TV news.
Are you saying that news like Aaj Tak, India TV, TimesNow, ZeeNews has shifted from Nationalist POV to anti Modi News( likes of NDTV).
Cause I don’t know but my family always watched NDTV ( because of my father) until most of us stopped watching news altogether ( excluding my father) .
Creativelogical
4 years ago
Ask her:
* How does she feel about taking instructions from an authoritative male (say you or your dad) on how to live her life? Every aspect of it!
* What would she do if he threatens to punish her if she does not obey?
* What would she do if he requires her to praise him for everything she has got?
If she says, she would resent it/not stand for it/fight it/leave/curse yadda yadda .., tell her that’s exactly what the book she thinks is awesome does! The difference is, the authority is the Male God instead of you or your dad.
If she says she is ok with that, hold her to it and start bossing her around 🙂 It would be nice to get a Leftie to make you breakfast and tea.
She is kind of Rebellious in nature as i was at some point. The upbringing has lot of do with it.( I dont think i will talk about that).
My Father is like any normal indian father just physical sometimes with both of us until say 2-3 years.
I would tell her just read the goddamn book.
My cousin read the quran cause he was genuinely curious and after reading he got scared of it.
Now he is calm and understand why certain people behave the way they do.
She in some case has proper lefty behaviour but i don’t mind that. Her definition of FOS is seriously one would not like. You can speak whattever unless you don’t offend someone. ( There is some good points(like rape threats, harrassment, transphobia etc shouldn’t be allowed) that she points out .
A muslim acquaintance of mine (from a liberal background) read the Koran only when he grew up and said he went into depression after reading it (of course he exaggerated, but still) . He turned sort of semi-agnostic after that.
Awesome! Free no hold barred verbal fighting.
well i do ban ppl for too much incivility
it appears indian army has shown its risk taking and out of box thinking in this chinese war. this is a good thing. pak is also having difficult time guessing indian moves.
Bangladesh gives traders special permission for hilsa export to India
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economictimes.com/news/economy/foreign-trade/bangladesh-gives-traders-special-permission-for-hilsa-export-to-india/amp_articleshow/78059441.cms
Thank heavens. Can Bengalis survive without Hilsa?
About the growth of radical organisations in the West and their anti-India rhetoric
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economictimes.com/news/defence/about-the-growth-of-radical-organisations-in-the-west-and-their-anti-india-rhetoric/amp_articleshow/78073545.cms
Interesting.
I believe that as Indian Muslims get richer, they will be the ones exporting conservative Islam instead of the gulf states.
Jamat-e-Islami and Tablighi Jamat and Deoband are all children of India (not even Pakistan or Bangladesh).
The reason is that Indian Ms believe that they are in “khatre me”
Hey, while we are all waiting for Armageddon, having a little fun is not wrong. All for the holy pastime, raise your hands!
P.S: What is the limit to verbal fighting?
For anybody who is interested: Reconstruction of Sanauli chariot (https://twitter.com/NirajRai3/status/1235839928891662336/photo/1)
Yes, I saw that reconstructed chariot in Manjul’s talk. A much better elevation view is in the below article.
https://m.timesofindia.com/india/indias-largest-known-burial-site-is-3800-yrs-old-confirms-carbon-dating/amp_articleshow/74254040.cms
Some key characteristics –
1. Definitely from the Bronze Age – the amount of copper sheathing and rods in the chariot structure is quite high.
2. I always wondered about the typical chariot that one could see in Bhagavad-Gita illustrations. Where the chariot would have a significant canopy. Even the ones in TV Mahabharata would have such canopies. And the Sanauli chariot has exactly such a copper tube for holding the Canopy (which might be cloth or straw construction)
3. Now Piggott reconstructed the vipatha (Rgveda word for chariot) more than 150 years ago based on the descriptions in the Rgveda. The excavated Sanauli chariot matches that largely including the yoke angled upwards.
https://books.google.nl/books?id=ywfsCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT117&lpg=PT117&dq=piggott+vipatha&source=bl&ots=8xGbmBqifB&sig=ACfU3U0i5sPoLO4z46JkGCH5N2lxusX2uQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi51uj50-PrAhUH2KQKHZfTA4QQ6AEwAnoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=piggott%20vipatha&f=false
4. The evolution of wheels in the modern era have been like this – solid, spoked, disc, multi-spoked, single alloy. Notice the third stage – a disc wheel is also a solid wheel but cast on one piece. Solid/Disc wheels are cheaper to make and replace. That’s why so many temple chariots in India have solid wheels even today.
@Ugra
Thanks for the Piggott link; I will definitely read it when I get time. Wheel technology tree is very intriguing. Do you know any book that describes it?
Kamala Harris Is An Anchor Baby, Not A ‘Natural Born Citizen’ Of The United States
The key question is whether Kamala Harris is a “natural born citizen” of the United States. According to the clearly written definition, which has been acknowledged for over two centuries, argues Mr. Sayre, if one of her parents was not a US Citizen at the time of her birth, she is not a natural born citizen.
http://www.conservativehq.com/article/30722-kamala-harris-anchor-baby-not-%E2%80%98natural-born-citizen%E2%80%99-united-states
Roy, I not know who Mr. Sayre is, nor do I much care.
The question is entirely within existing statutes:
8 U.S. Code § 1401 – Nationals and citizens of United States at birth
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
The language of (a) is taken directly from Am. XIV §1:
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States”
The force of that provision was established in U. S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) where the US Supreme Court held that a child born in the United States a citizen of the United States entitled to all the rights and privileges of citizenship, even though his parents were foreigners ineligible to be naturalized at the time he was born.
Sen. Harris was undisputedly born at Oakland CA and is a citizen by birth, and is therefore a naturally born citizen.
Even if the birth was by C-section:
MACBETH: I bear a charmed life, which must not yield, to one of woman born.
MACDUFF: Despair thy charm; and let the angel whom thou still hast served tell thee, Macduff was from his mother’s womb Untimely ripped.Scottih Play A. V, S. 8
this is dumb
@Razib, i was looking at the qpADM estimates of different jaatis in narsimhan’s paper and i found that some of the bania castes like Agarwals of Delhi, Banias of UP have less steppe than many of the OBC jaatis of UP and similar steppe as some of dalit jaatis of UP like Jatavs . In that case, how true is this claim of ritual/varna status being correlated with steppe ancestry in the non north-west regions of india ? (Of course, varna has little correlation with dabangai(bullying behavior ) on ground but that’s a different story)
Yeah I found that odd too. I am of Gujarati Jain vania origin and my steppe percent is roughly the same as Tambrahms. But the banias in Narsimhan paper are a bit lower. maybe just selection bias either way? Or the merchant castes just mixed more because capitalism leads to pragmatism more than hardcore honor culture orientation of priests and warrior caste? who knows. all conjecture
@thewarlock, i consider it pretty normal considering the banias from UP and Bihar(and even Delhi) i have come across :).
” hardcore honor culture orientation of priests and warrior caste” — my understanding is that as we sample more rajput clans from MP and bihar, we would find some heterogeneity among them too.
yeah most likely. Gujaratis also cluster a bit west of gangetic plains types, when adjusting for caste among priest, warrior, and merchant castes. Gujarati Brahmins are about as west shifted as Khatris actually per Narsimhan.
I think gangetic plains had more tribal populations encountered as forests cleared by more westerly migrants
GJ Brahmins have about as much steppe as UP Brahmins do. Khatris don’t have a lot more maybe 3 or 5% more. I’ll have to check the actual number.
In that case, how true is this claim of ritual/varna status being correlated with steppe ancestry in the non north-west regions of India ?
a correlation of .5 will have lots of residuals.
i knew of all that. it looks like “IVC” is enriched in the guj=>south India zone. in contrast, steppe and AASI is enriched in the eastern gangetic plain. eg gangetic plains brahmins have way more steppe that some sindhis and guj, but also more AASI!
0.5 would only translate to 25% of the varience right? Then 75% is a lot.
India biggest beef exporter or 2 or 3rd in the world.
What gives ?
https://beef2live.com/story-world-beef-exports-ranking-countries-0-106903
https://theprint.in/economy/indias-beef-exports-rise-under-modi-govt-despite-hindu-vigilante-campaign-at-home/210164/
I believe that’s buffalo, now cow. Former doesn’t have the same taboo as the latter.
It’s carabeef or buff.
So my view on Hinduism vs Paganism – a while back Razib said that Hinduism was not simply inchoate Indic Paganism.
I have to say that to some extent I agree, but I think he overestimates its internal development. My theory is that “Hinduism” as we understand it was a result of post-vedic Brahmical cults trying to explain their beliefs in the terms of the Śramaṇas, either to them, or against them.
With the end of the Vedic period there is a solid period in which we actually see very little in the way of Hindu Iconography. There are descriptions of cults, like those of the Vṛṣṇi heroes, but it isn’t until much later that we see them actually depicted. Similarly, in the South, there were still very “shintoesque” local cults that continued to thrive (continued megalithic until first centuries of common era). Even in South India today there are plenty of village temples that are unaltered, and a simple stone or pillar enshrines a local deity (though they today tend to be associated with more pan-Indic deities.)
However, there is very little from the early classical period that indicates that these forms of worship had merged with the Brahmanical forms of religion, leading to a kind of triple division of between Śramaṇas, Brāhmaṇas, and local cults. At some point by the Gupta period, however, we see a merger of vedic deities into local cults. This creates a kind of scholar-priest class presiding over the recognisable “temple religion” we might understand as Hinduism today.
As the Śramaṇas were the dominant intellectual strain, and the largest influence on outside invaders and neighbouring societies, the Brāhmaṇas now had to start explaining their beliefs in these terms, which creates what we recognise as “Hinduism” today.
there’s very little gap btwn our views so you haven’t read me closely
I’ve read your views closely, but I think there is a significant gap. “Hinduism” may not be inchoate paganism, but you’re assuming that it has seriously departed from paganism. Vedanta etc were relatively elite beliefs, and until the 1950s, the majority praxis resembled inchoate paganism. It wasn’t until broadcast media that the average villager had much of a conception of religion outside their village.
It’s the same as Shinto, which for most people was just better organised animism, more like Totoro than Spirited Away. The more organised forms were never part of mainstream practice, but existed in an attempt to explain native religion in Buddhist and Taoist terms.
Where does one get a DNA analysis done completely privately?
Is there any company that will provide you the report and delete the master copy completely?
The closest I have seen is
https://nebula.org/whole-genome-sequencing/
But even they keep the copy in their database and supposedly allow you to control/sell it. Not good enough for me.
i have been reading comments to pepe escobar’s article in unz review. might be some of you are also contributing comments. although the article is pedestrian, many comments show a deep bias against indians. who is this malla?, posting very long comments!!
Unz is either a Mossad-sponsored honeytrap for WNs or he is the incarnation of Bobby Fischer. Depending on my mood when I wake up, I oscillate between the two explanations.
More generally, his website is extremely pro-China. He was very early on in pushing the conspiracy theory that the US was the one who tried to genetically engineer a virus to kill millions of Chinese but it backfired and mutated.
In other words, don’t be surprised about the bias on that site.
There are many who love India, that comment there.
My favourite: https://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=rec1man
lol I remember him from India vs. china IQ puzzle debate that spans thousands of pages lmfao. Same dude.
But you’ve got to admit he is part of a tiny minority. The blog is pretty pro China. also, lower castes are trashed by pretty much everyone. No one is egalitarian pro India
Rec1Man is like a caricature of a self-hating Indian guy, trying to differentiate based on his caste (probably a Brahmin)
There is boarding school (Shantibhavan) started by an Indian American businessman that comprises of 95% Tamil Dalits and enrols the poorest of the poor based solely on need (no IQ selection)
According to people who fixate on IQ as some sort of immutable characteristic (and just ignore the Flynn effect, circularity etc) like that Rec1man guy these kids should have an IQ that is lot lower than the Indian average of 84 right ?
Since Rec1man thinks Brahmins are 2sd higher than average maybe Dalits are 1sd lower. So let’s say 70.
Well school has been running for over 20 years to a lot of the early batches have gone on to become professionals and you can find videos online. There was a Netflix documentary.
Go have a look and let me know if you think the kids have an average IQ of 70.
“IQ realists” are engaging in motivated reasoning to reaffirm their own prejudiced views of people.
“Indian average of 84”
I don’t know what India’s true average is but 84 is kinda bs and mainly based on Richard Lynn’s works. He used some very dumb sources and methods to come up with the IQ scores (already posted about it in the past). He’s highly criticized in general.
Methodology aside, I don’t view the 84 figure as set in stone, as I am not entirely convinced that IQ is measuring what it purports to measure.
To use a Machine Learning analogy I think it may be measuring the relevance of the pre-test training data, in addition to the quality of the neural network architecture.
It is strange that the Flynn effect is the strongest on more supposedly culture neutral g-loaded tests like ravens progressive matrices.
It is a 2 sd increase in the last 100 years in Europe, so it’s not a small effect.
I think we need to be careful with statistical constructs in general. People talk about IQ like it is height, it isnt.
I think most (almost all?) Unz.com commenters are Steve Sailer commenters, and if you’ve read Sailer for a while (I encountered his writing in the mid-2000s), he and his blog commenters have an “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom”-like attitude towards India and Indians.
Anyway, why does it matter that a bunch of random commenters on the internet (all on the white nationalist spectrum) dislike India?
lol Unz has always had a hate boner for Indians. The comments tell the same story as the article.
Last week there was a discussion about white-presenting vs. White-passing.
Many South Indians are black-presenting (I am not sure if any took up to be black-passing given all the stories of people passing as WOC).
I am curious to hear if there are any 1.5 or 2nd gen Americans with this experience.
Someone like Russel Peters (comedian) can be black-passing if they chose to.
Does anyone think future Indian-Americans will try black-passing for competitive advantage?
I have a good friend who is a Sri Lankan Tamil guy.
We were talking about BLM, and he sent me this video of a Sri Lankan Tamil diaspora group in discussing BLM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gqQyhgJjDI
I remember jokingly saying that any police officer would think the two guys are black.
So they wouldn’t really have any privilege in that regards. lol
it’s taboo to pass as black if you are indian American, but i have heard of cases of ppl who do it besides mindy kaling’s brother. the best story is a woman (Bangladeshi) who hooked up with a guy who she had assumed was black but it turned out he was tamil. he just shaved his head and wore ‘black’ style clothing and spoke in a black inflection. he did it cuz it was easier to find women to hookup. with (see. above)
but i’m brown enough if i shave my head i think i can pass as a black American. one time at a Mexican place they referred to me in Spanish when my head was shaved as ‘the black guy’
“Jessica Krug, the white George Washington University professor who faked being Black, resigned Wednesday. Krug revealed she was actually white in a Medium post last week. * * *
“The university announced Krug’s resignation in a tweet. She’s also been removed from the university website.
“* * * In June, Krug called into a New York City Council meeting, called herself “Jess La Bombalera” and presented herself as a Latina woman.”
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-jessica-krug-george-washington-resigns-20200910-5xywdwlurzfnratdpw6chr5u64-story.html
(the taboo has to do with the sacred aspect of the black identity in the USA)
https://scroll.in/article/972694/coronavirus-why-is-pakistan-doing-so-much-better-than-india
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgLNjZOzyNo&ab_channel=ThePakistanExperience
Did Quaid-e-Azam want Pakistan to be a secular or an Islamic state? – Dr.Ishtiaq Ahmed
IMHO, the only reason why some desis can ‘pass’ as black is because Americans are so ignorant about them (still). There may be extreme outliers (as that Bangladeshi girl who fell for a black-presenting Bangladeshi man) who can genuinely pass, but even Mindy Kaling’s brother definitely wasn’t black.
It is *not* about the skin tone. It’s the facial structure. If you see enough desis you can definitely tell who is and who isn’t black in the vast majority of cases, even for very dark people. I assume as more desis become more common in pop culture (which is still far from the case), these opportunities for ‘passing’ will start to fade.
Also height length index. African blacks have long heads wrt skull height. Not always but on average, while south Indians are usually hypsicranic (the opposite).
the guy was tamil.
anyway, if you are an immigrant, you walk differently than Americans. so that’s a tell. i had a friend who saw a black guy at a math conference which was rare. but he realized something was off with the way he walked, and it turned out to be a very dark south indian academic.
Yeah that’s why 1.5gen or 2nd gen Americans are a different matter.
If not for cultural markers, it’s hard to tell. Like that Tamil guy, people may try it for other advantages.
I have seen a few 1.5gen Sri Lankan Tamils who can absolutely pass as Blacks if they chose to. But then, their Tamil wins out when they hear anyone speaking Tamil.
and not to forget… the head bobble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoJ4Bvsq7gQ
About that supposed ’84 Indian IQ’ thing that someone referenced, which originated from Lynn. Aside from his serious methodological flaws which have been mentioned, it’s worth bringing up the fact that Indian-Singaporeans earn as much, if not more, than ethnic Chinese despite mostly coming from poor indentured servants.
There has been an influx in the last 30 years of more skilled Indian migrants, but even if you look at 1990 earnings, Indians were barely 10% behind the Chinese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore#Household_income
So if Indians from a very poor and disadvantaged background can rise to that level, then there are good reasons to be long-term optimistic about India. I am that, just as I am short- to medium-term pessimistic about India due to the state governments’ utter failure to properly educate their children.
some issues
1) india is the home of cretinism. the average is suppressed by bad nutrition/hygiene (the until recent ubiquity of outdoor defection might. be underestimated hit to child dev)
2) India is genetically diverse enough that average for a quant trait is not useful. some group are higher some lower. china is homogeneous enough average is more useful
3) seems consistent that when you take unselected/filtered indians and Chinese the latter do do better on psychometric tests, though in some places gap is not large. in. the USA the earliest Chinese and Japanese communities were from poor classes without land, but these became the core of the ‘model minority’
The Mystery of the Lockdowns
“In ‘How many lives would a more normal president have saved?’ New York Times columnist Ross Douthat wonders how many Americans died because of President Trump’s “abnormal” reluctance to embrace stricter lockdown measures. Douthat’s speculations probably never get close to the likely correct answer, though, which is zero: a “more normal” president would have saved zero extra lives.
That’s because recent studies find little evidence that differences in lockdown policies have had any effect on the pandemic.
It’s a mystery why governments were and remain eager to plunge along a path with such meager benefits to offset daunting costs. The costs include not only the worst world recession in modern times but also the emergency powers states have seized to enforce the lockdowns and the resulting loss of civil liberties by citizens.
The citizens’ loss has been the state’s gain. A new study finds that governments have declared emergencies mainly because of the new powers they stand to gain, not the severity of the pandemic.”
https://naimisha_forest.silvrback.com/the-mystery-of-the-lockdowns
@Milan Todorovic
I have no problem in talking about Steppe or genetics. What is true is true. However, your posts on Indian issue — that have nothing to do with Vinca/Balto Slavics — are not right. If you have anything to say regarding Indians — good or bad — you are welcome, but won’t it be great if you can limit yourself to topics that the post mentions? After all, OPs expect discussion regarding what they have written, and it is disrespectful if random matters are discussed on their posts. You can post whatever you want in Open Thread.
Also, swastika has been used in India since before Harappan times. So, I don’t know what you wish to say through it. Random similarities mean nothing on their own.
@Milan Todorovic
Since you asked when the earliest Swastika is found in India: The earliest evidence of Swastika in Madhya Pradesh, India is dated to at least 10,000 B.C. — if not earlier — suggesting indigenous origin of swastika .This predates Vinca by 5000-6000 years, and it is at least contemporary to or predates Ukraine Swastika. Furthermore, it was wrong on my part to post such a harsh message earlier, and I recognise that I should not have done so.
Link:
http://www.iitkgpsandhi.org/Swastika_Monograph%202016.pdf
The spread of swastika in India is probably associated with the spread of Iran mesolithic/epipaleolithic populations into India. I think that the spread of swastika ultimately shows the spread of ane ancestry just like in the Americas. Maybe also associated with the spread of the micro blade culture types which originated in northern Asia. This association is more clear in Europe where it is easy to distinguish ane based groups from those that are not while the association in India may not appear as clear because of multiple ane waves. At least 2, maybe even more.
@DaThang
I don’t know much about Indian ancestry, but I would definitely like to learn more:
1. Is AASI also ANE?
2. Also, is SE Asian ancestry from which AASI branched off also ANE?
3. When was ANE formed?
4. Is there any book with chart that mentions all these ancestries?
ANE comes from ANS. ANS has some ancestry from an eastern non-African source. It seems to be Salkhit though the Tianyuan yDNA (K2b) looked like it would be a close match.
Some west Eurasian (maybe Aurignacian) + Some ENA (maybe Salkhit) = ANS
ANS -> ANE (might or might not involve Dzudzuana-like input)
Proto WHG + basal Eurasian = Dzudzuana.
Dzudzuana + Basal + ANE (+ maybe other minor inputs) = Iran mesolithic.
Iran mesolithic/epipaleolithic could have inherited the Swastika from ANE.
Swastika Origin (https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/s/Swastika.htm)
“””
Origin hypotheses
The ubiquity of the swastika symbol is easily explained by it being a very simple symbol that will arise independently in any basketweaving society. The swastika is a repeating design, created by the edges of the reeds in a square basket-weave. Other theories attempt to establish a connection via cultural diffusion or an explanation along the lines of Carl Jung’s collective unconscious.
While the existence of the swastika symbol in the Americas may be explained by the basket-weave theory, its American presence weakens the cultural diffusion theory. While some have proposed that the swastika was secretly transferred to North America by an early seafaring civilization on Eurasia, a separate but parallel development is considered the most likely explanation.
Yet another explanation is suggested by Carl Sagan in his book Comet. Sagan reproduces an ancient Chinese manuscript that shows comet tail varieties: most are variations on simple comet tails, but the last shows the comet nucleus with four bent arms extending from it, recalling a swastika. Sagan suggests that in antiquity a comet could have approached so close to Earth that the jets of gas streaming from it, bent by the comet’s rotation, became visible, leading to the adoption of the swastika as a symbol across the world.
Bob Kobres in Comets and the Bronze Age Collapse (1992) contends that the swastika-like comet on the Han Dynasty silk comet atlas was labeled a “long tailed pheasant star” due to its resemblance to a bird’s foot., and further suggests that many swastika and swastika-like motifs may have been representations of bird tracks, including many of those found by Schliemann.
Barbara G. Walker, author of The Woman’s Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects, claims that the crux dissimulata, an early swastika, represented the four winds. Concerning the short-armed version of this symbol, known as the gammadion because it is made up of four Greek gammas, Walker says this symbol was an emblem of the ancient goddess and probably represented “the solstices and equinoxes, or the four directions, four elements, and four divine guardians of the world.”
“””
It seems, you as a recent visitor, should first study this blog and find out who is writing what. I already suggested Razib to introduce the induction procedure at BP, where rookies would be assigned a buddy to work with them. You do not need to patronize me and give me directions what I could or should write. I do write about Euro-SA historical connections (especially ancient) and historical falsifications. I also make parallels related to practicing the taqiya in Europe and SA. Rarely, I write about global topics (e.g. culture, geostrategy, military, etc). I do not write about modern Indians although I know personally many of them. In the past, I wrote about English genocide in India where they killed several dozens of millions of people, about Churchill’s opinion about Indians, etc. I even offered to make a first draft of the request document for apology from British Crown and Parliament for their past deeds. No one was interested to be involved probably because of the fear of losing their residency status or future benefits. After that, I do not write about contemporary Indians because all other know these things much better than me.
I don’t understand the statement about me negating (?) the link btw. Indians (?) and so-called Balto-Slavics(who are they?). The fact is that ancient Slavics (=Serbs) have the same genetics with 150+ million SAsians. This should be explained. You may suggest your knowledge, opinion or speculation. The fact is that swastika was found in Vinca and it was a ‘letter’ in the world oldest alphabet (=rising sun, infinite energy). I did not say that Vinca’s swastika is the oldest. Who lived in today’s Ukraine? Do you know the boundaries of Vinca’s civilisation? And, there was a swastika 5000 years before Vinca in Harappa (it means cca 11000 BC)? Tell us something about Harappa in 11000BC, I would be interested to know. Tell us how, when and by whom the swastika from Harappa was transferred to Vinca (and Ukraine). Or, you can tell us where future Indians lived during the Ice Age (12000+ BC)?
You can make a comparison with Lepenski Vir, ‘the oldest city in Europe’, at the same time. It would be probably the last from me, it is pretty time consuming going back to square one and repeating basics again and again.
https://www.google.rs/search?q=lepenski+vir+figure&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj03v_d4eXrAhVfHbcAHXSwBEsQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=lepenski+vir+fi&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQARgAMgIIADIECAAQHjIECAAQGDoGCAAQCBAeUIAgWL80YJxHaABwAHgAgAGCAogBsA2SAQUwLjkuMZgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=_N5dX_TwHN-63LUP9OCS2AQ&bih=597&biw=1242
Your BS is getting ridiculous. Everything is Ancient Serbs to you. You have the most warped and racist attitude that strips others of their achievements, and steals them for you own. Your ridiculous and incoherent ramblings should stay in your ultra-nationalist troll farm.
It seems you are definitely the top serbofob here, overtaking all taqiyamen. You should ask for professional help. I only said above that Slavics, before this term was invented in the 7th cAC were Serbs, based on the language they spoke. In the 8th cAC, first of future Slavics’ names appeared was the Russian name, other came much later. Also, the fact is the same genetics btw Serbs and millions of SAsians. You are occupied with your hatred and unable to say anything specific. Are you saying that this genetics similarity is untrue? Can you state in which direction genes went 4000 years ago (either way is good for me) or give us a simple answer – who were Aryans? East Europeans?
That isn’t English, and barely makes any sense, so I am guessing at what you might be trying to ramble about. I have no idea what a Serbofop is, so you might want to get some English lessons before typing nonsense.
The Slavs never called themselves Serbs prior to the 7th century, and their original language was not Serbian, and Vinca was not Serbian. The ethnogenesis of the Slavs is agreed to be in the Pripyet marshes region, with the Serbs emerging amongst the South Slavic people in a migration south.
Get it through your head – Vinca wasn’t Serbian, the Steppe people were not Serbian, Alexander the Great was not Serbian, Constantine was not Serbian, and ancient Indians were not Serbian. Your anachronistic geographical references are as stupid as saying that Moctezuma was Spanish.
I predicted long time ago that oit if continue their way would finish in lunacy. You are such example. What is the significance of any your opinion about history if you do not recognize the existence of Aryans? Because you are avoiding to explain the same genetics btw some Indians and Slavics. It is illusory asking who Aleksander Karanovic the Great was. Why don’t you comment on Francesco’s comment?
What remains? Just plain, naked, a la taqiyamen serbofobia (or serbophobia).
@Milan Todorovic
What do you get by posting stuff that is patently wrong? Stop denigrating Vincans; they have nothing to do with Aryans; embrace their Anatolian identity and revel in their accomplishment. Your abuse and slander of Vincans is seriously reprehensible.
Arrre Bhai..Bhai…Bhai
Strange, none of the description includes Big Dipper rotation over the year to indicate seasons.
@Violet
What is this Big Dipper rotation hypothesis? My understanding is that Swastika is a common symbol created independently; if I knew about ancestral streams and their charts I could be more sure.
@Milan Todorovic
IVC originated in Mehrgarh, which formed pre 7000 B.C. (exact date unsure) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh) Were there other influences on Mehrgarh too — like from interior of India? Nothing is known. You ask people about AASI genetics, they become quiet because they don’t know. Archaeologically, India is a virgin territory; Indians are busy trying to make a living rather than understand past.
Now, Harvard researchers have been trying to tie IVC with Elamite civilization; even that has failed. Now it is impossible as IVC does not have Anatolian ancestry. Right now the only thing we know is that Iran_N and AASI that descended from east asia mixed. Reich has been hypothesizing that AASI was the first to arrive, but we don’t know that for sure. Not many people know that he has been consistently wrong on India since 2009. So, I don’t know how much we can rely on him.
Agree. Its not a certainty that AASI arrived first. Ydna H has its brothers mostly in the west. Could be basal eurasian arrived first or something similar to crown eurasian.
Going to elite Indian colleges improves earnings, but not test scores
The full paper is here.
NREGA, much-maligned by the neoliberal ‘right’, proves to be a lifesaver for India’s poor. The Indian Express has a great deep-dive, travelling to West Bengal and talking to the families there.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/coronavirus-lockdown-farm-labourers-nrega-6593686/
What’s more ironic ? The first real mainstream neo liberal “right” paper Indian express doing a deep dive on mnrega
Desis cant pass as Blacks to even the most race-blind observer IMO. A good test would be to place these so-called Black passing Desis in a SSA country and vice-versa and then see if the natives recognize them as their own. It wouldn’t work. Also, as far as America (and the New World) goes, race is a complex and touchy subject. African Americans in particular have a long and complex ancestral history, and people who identify as “Black” in America range from Barack Obama to Wentworth Miller; this makes for a lot of flexibility and a certain “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” approach when it comes to Black self-identification and ancestry. It also allows a whole range of people, with different complexions from Black to White, and with different bone structures, facial features and skulls from Negroid to Caucasoid to pass as “Black” as well. Daniel Hale Williams anyone? The first “Black” surgeon to do an open-heart surgery successfully (and the first open heart surgery, period) and yet he doesn’t fit the description of even a “mixed” “Black” man according to most Americans.
The lack of familiarity with dark-skinned peoples, both dark-skinned Caucasians, Latinos, and Asians, also complicates things quite a bit, leading to some ignorant and uninformed people to make some truly dumb observations or guesses about someone’s ancestral background. Most people just assume that only SSA or heavily SSA-derived people can be darker than a Fitzpatrick 4 on the Fitzpatrick scale, when that is clearly not the case. People all across Eurasia, including many in MENA countries can have dark brown skin, sometimes bordering on an almost-Black complexion when heavily tanned. This isn’t something that is limited to South Asia. SE Asians and Latin Americans also have many people with very dark skin, even when they lack any Black ancestry. Would all of these people be classified as Black by outsiders? I don’t think so.
Besides, South Asians have 0% SSA/Black ancestry anyway, and lack the anthropological features of Black people; they don’t have a Negroid or Negroid-influenced skull, or prognathism, or the flared nostrils and wide and low bridge of the African “nose”; they dont have the same eye-shapes as Africans or the same spacing of the sockets, nor do they have the dentition found in Africans, nor the lips, nor the steatopygia commonly seen in many African men and women. They don’t have African hair texture, and they lack the wide foreheads that Africans often have as well. Furthermore, they lack the body and limb proportions and build of Africans as well, in addition to possessing different compositions of muscle fibers used in things like sprinting, and have different skin undertones and shades, as well as different genes for pigmentation as well.
If anything, even the Arabs, who all have varying levels of SSA ancestry, don’t pass as Black in the vast majority of cases, except when they have heavy amounts of SSA. African Americans like Colin Kaepernick have more than a passing resemblance to many Gulf Arabs due to obvious reasons and there’s plenty more where that came from. Arabs thus have a much better case for passing as “Black” than any South Asian. Add the “one-drop” rule and the complicated history of Black self-identification in the United States to the mix, and it further strengthens the case for the “Blackness” of Arabs. But this is on a case-by-case basis, and even then, not set in stone.
Rachel Dolezai sure fooled a lot of people by just getting a tan and a perm, yet she’s of full European descent, and there’s plenty more examples where that came from. So even European people without any Black ancestry can “pass” as Black in social settings in the New World/United States, but I dont think this means anything in the anthropological and “real” sense. Given all of this information, I dont think Vijay Chokalingam’s experience means anything as far as South Asians “passing for Black” is concerned. The same applies to other South Asians who try to pass as African American as well. Its an anomaly/fluke with no real significance for the racial classification and perception of South Asians, any more than it holds significance for Arabs, or Latinos/Hispanics, or dark SE Asians, or even Europeans with a Perm and a tan.
Well, there are historic castes of Subsaharan Africans in India and Pakistan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddi
Brought over recently by Islamic rulers, most of them are in modern day Pakistan and are Muslim. But they are also present in Gujarat and Karnataka, where some even follow Hinduism.
Ah, but the Siddi are a hyper-minority of endogamous people that don’t really constitute a caste in the traditional sense, due to their huge amounts of SSA ancestry/isolation from others/ostracization in South Asian society. They are also a remnant of the Arab/East African Slave trade, when some Siddis were brought over to the West coast of the subcontinent, and many actually established their own little kingdoms for a short while, as the Siddis did in Janjira. On the whole, they don’t have much visibility in South Asian society, far less than even the Parsi, who have played a much more siginficant role despite being a small minority as well.
An actual African/South Asian mix that IS drawing attention in South Asia, or India to be specific, is Masaba Gupta, the illegitimate love-child born of a one-night stand to Neena Gupta and Vivian Richards. She apparently commands enough importance to merit her own high-production value Netflix show that portrays her as a celebrated fashion designer and socialite in Mumbai. Quite progressive for a South Asian-centric Netflix show.
I don’t think you have seen enough South Indian phenotypes to comment that desis can’t pass as black.
Many black people on Toronto subway and Bay Area transit mistook me for black. I am not an American born and so, my accent is a dead giveaway. I am as regular as any South Indian (I.e. you can’t pick me as stand out in any group pictures from back-home).
Also, it appears you don’t know enough Ethiopians to know how “Indian” they look. Be it facial structure or hair.
@Violet
I have read a lot of your posts, and I must say you are very knowledgeable. So, I thought about asking what do you know regarding Brain computer interface (BCI). Is it a promising technology?
Nowadays, Wireless Power Transfer + Back-scattering communication seems to be all the rage in BCI. Will there be an industry around it or will it die off?
The IQ discussion always makes me laugh. When most of the subcontinent is barely able to feed and clothe its populace, taking IQ tests at face value is really a rather low-IQ thing to engage in. Apart from the obvious things like malnutrition and disease, cultural and academic barriers due to poor access to education and generations of illiteracy further complicate things as well.
The other issue is, the Indian diaspora, which largely stems from a lower-caste and lower SES background in many cases, has done rather well for itself on the academic front and with SES status. Nearly all diaspora communities exceed the average SES of the natives, even in White-majority countries. In most cases, it is higher than East Asians as well. I don’t think this would have been possible had their genetic potential/genetic IQ not been at the very least, equal to other Asians, be they East or SE Asians. In fact, IIRC, the digit-span test that was administered to the children of South Asian immigrants/first generation of South Asians in America showed an average IQ higher than the Ashkenazim, and at the 80th percentile of the White American IQ. Keep in mind, this was done without collating data with respect to caste, but it is safe to say that the people sampled were definitely not all “Jats” or “Khatris” or “UP/Kashmiri/Gujarati/South Indian Brahmins” etc. In fact, they probably mirrored the Indian American community pretty nicely, which is to say that they represented low to middle-caste Gujaratis, Tamils, Telugus, Malayalis and Gangetic/Cow belt generic/lower castes pretty well, in addition to Bengalis as well.
Finally, I dont see why high-AASI folk would have lower IQ than their other Asian brethren. AASI is after all, a fundamentally “Asian” component, and as Razib stated once, deeply nested within the larger Asian cluster/race. As such, folks with large amounts of AASI ancestry as found among the non-Twice born and non-NWners, would only have higher IQs than those with less AASI. Take a look at the Nobel Laureates of India, none are NW elite castes, and with the exception of Sen, all are part of what is considered “lower caste” in the North/North West. Even the vast majority of the most erudite and academically successful Indian Americans dont hail from Brahmin castes with huge amounts of Steppe and InPe ancestry; on the contrary, a quick look at the prominent list of Indian Americans on Wikipedia shows that the vast majority are no different from the generic North Indian UP-wala or South Indian middle caste, and are even more admixed in many cases. Keeping in mind the fact that high SES is correlated with IQ, and the aforementioned average IQ of Indian Americans, and knowing that the vast majority of India’s population is concentrated in the North, which shares an AASI profile similar to most Indians in the South and East, I don’t see why the average IQ/genetic potential of Indians as a whole in not in the mid 90’s to 100 at the very least, which is not any different from White Americans, for instance.
I agree
also arguably the smartest brahmin groups are about as AASI as Gujarati mid caste like myself and the most AASI brahmins in India. So this stuff breaks down.
Anyway,one can still argue artificial selection pressures and endogamy all day. racialist have nothing better to do.
thewarlock
How AASI are the Saraswat Brahmins from MH/Goa/KT coast? (SB/GSB as they are called).
This community seems to be over represented in all things academics.(Perhaps second only to Bengalis and the Iyengar/Iyers)
Upper castes are over represented in the American diaspora. Which one are you referring to? UK?
As for india iq talk, I sound like a broken record by this point saying that it is more than half an sd above the commonly cited numbers. A good way to know for sure would be to do the polygemic tests on as many indian populations as possible. India has many distinct subpopulations and as razib said a singe number while it is obtainable will not be meaningful since group averages will differ within India. I would expect this not so meaningful result to be comparable to Latino averages which is more than 0.75 sd above what is commonly cited as the supposed indian amount. The exact polygenic score will vary as estimations improve over time but I anticipate that it will be in the Chilean or Argentinean range for the not so meaningful average value.
@DaThang, I think you posted it before, but do you have an email address I can reach you at? I need to learn from your big-brained wisdom. (And in case that comes across as patronizing or if it sounds facetious, its not, I promise.)
I have nothing else to say about this topic. Email is earthquake344@gmail.com.
Thanks man, I will send you an email shortly.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/real-face-of-jinnah-new-book-says-he-never-wanted-a-united-india/articleshow/78084562.cms
Real face of Jinnah: New book says he never wanted a united India
“Eventually when Partition happened, Jinnah complained about having received a “moth-eaten Pakistan”. But it appears that he wanted further division of India with a separate state for the Sikhs comprising the princely states in East Punjab and a separate Dravidistan in South India.
“His main offer was to agree to substantial autonomy for Sikhs if they agreed to support his demand for partition. Similarly, he encouraged the Dravidian leaders to demand a separate state – this idea was originally of Rahmat Ali. However, in early March 1940 when Dr Ambedkar and Periyar met Jinnah at his Bombay house, no agreement was reached to form an alternative party to the Congress. Both Ambedkar and Periyar were disappointed with Jinnah. Ambedkar wrote against Islam using very strong words which up until then he used for Hinduism’s notorious caste system,” Ahmed says
This was in keeping with the League’s ‘hostage theory’. “The assumption was that there would be substantial minorities in both India and Pakistan. That would mean that if Indian Muslims were coerced by Hindus in India, then Hindus in Pakistan would be given a tough time,” Ahmed explains. “Interestingly, on March 30, 1941 he was asked to explain what the fate of Muslims left in India would be… Jinnah in a fit of anger told them that he would make 2 crore Muslims taste martyrdom and be smashed in order to liberate 7 crores. The actual numbers left in India were 35 million,” Ahmed says.”
The secular Pak myth has been created by the present day Pakistani secularists to appropriate Jinnah (since Iqbal is totally out of bounds to them!) It is largely based on his non pious personal life but singularly pivots on that August speech.
I think this guy came on the you tube channel of Arvind Saharan.
The two main takeaways-
a) The speech was made mostly for the Western audience and was more of a pragmatic/political speech.
b) It was also directed to the Indian leadership…to prevent flooding Pak with millions of additional Mussalmans and creating resource problems. (another example of Jinnah’s pragmatism)
Make perfect sense.
I have seen many explanations as to how this speech does not fit the pattern of Jinnah’s actions and also all the rest of his speeches/utterances, but these two points do not get made often enough.
I got into this twitter argument with one such secular Pak Nationalist named Yasser Latif Hamdani. I tried to pick apart his ( and by extension Ayesha Jalal’s) arguments but then he started abusing me.
I wished him well and got off his timeline.
Frankly, perpetuating this myth is better for them as a nation!
I would rather have them build Jinnah up as some kind of secular humanist idol and make Pak in that image than follow the Zia model.
I only discovered this blog last week over the long weekend but I think I have learned so much from the thoughtful discussions here. Unfortunately a lot of it has confirmed by already held opinions, but at least has reinforced my reasoning with additional data/insights ( special thanks to Razib, Warlock, Slapstik,Apthk, Gaurav, Burnt out and many more) . I hope more Pakistanis engage with the Blog.
Oh, the Blog also explains why I feel this strange affinity to the Serbians!
Anyway, speaking of racial dynamics, it seems that the Jats have been making a name for themselves for quite some time now, even in Hollywood blockbusters like the ones directed by Steven Spielberg.
The Lost World, which is the sequel to Jurassic Park, had a main character played by a White British guy no less, named Ajay Sidhu, Sidhu being a common Jatt surname. Surprisingly enough, they didn’t alter his appearance for the role, apart from a slight tan that is evident in the film. And he looks fully Jatt as well. Still from the film:
?itok=1odfca5L
I thought it was incredible that Spielberg recognized way back in 1996 that there were different races in India, and that one of these races was the great Caucasian race, represented by Jatts in the NW of India. He even gave the character a Hindu Jatt background and name and chose a WASP who looks and easily passes as a Hindu Jatt to play the role. I didn’t realize Hollywood was so aware and culturally sensitive back in the 90s, not to mention the fact that even some WASP individuals can pass as Jatts with ease.
Of course, Jeff Goldblum, despite being a Jewish Caucasian, also easily passes as a Hindu Jatt. Reminds me of my uncle actually, almost a doppelgänger of his. We have some connections with the Semitic Chosen People that I can’t explain. I’ve seen quite a few Ashkenazim that pass as Jatt with flying colors.
Ajay met an untimely demise in the film, like many other characters, but he was quite memorable for me, even as a child, when I was unaware of how his Indian identity was so significant in a social sense. I was just glad to see a familiar name in a dinosaur movie. They even got his accent right, instead of using a caricature of an accent, they used one typical of educated NWners: https://youtu.be/raXWIDbugag
Lolol.
Man you think Spielberg went from depicting Indians as monkey brain eaters in temple of doom to understanding the minute details of Jaat samaj surnames And accent ?
And then hired a white actor to play the Jaat in recognition of Jatt steppe ancestry / looks?
You are confusing Spielberg with some other director I am afraid.
“We have some connections with the Semitic Chosen People that I can’t explain”
>>> I wrote before about Ramzes’s II daddy Seti (Sethos) II, city of Kedem, etc.
Read some online commenter recently that Indians are the new Jews in US media depiction.
They are untrustworthy, penny-pinching and dishonest (Apu). But they are also intelligent, prudish and wonkish (Koothrapali). Glad that Hasan Minhaj regularly show up the supposedly anti- M acts and behaviour of everyday Indians. Gives the average American something new to digest.
Mile Sur Mera Video – Nostalgia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rs7dG-0WcE
Modi can repeat 1971 and ensure a 1962 in reverse
https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/modi-can-repeat-1971-ensure-1962-reverse
Stuff I found the most concerning( I haven’t heard the third one anywhere else, I’d like to know if you guys think it’s true/likely) –
Beijing intends to take control of the entirety of the Himalayan massif, the South China Sea and Taiwan. There needs to be a military victory as in 1962, not a stalemate as in Vietnam in 1979. The South China Seas are crawling with naval craft of multiple countries, including India, and is at present therefore a difficult location to score a swift triumph. As for Taiwan, from almost the start of her first term in office, President Tsai Ing-wen has focused on linking her country to the US defence supply chain…………. in the absence of a clear understanding between India and the US about mutual security, the Himalayan massif seems to be the option offering a higher chance of a PLA success in 2021 than clearing the South China Sea of foreign navies by the PLA Navy or an attempted takeover or even blockade of Taiwan.
Much of the difference between what took place in 1962 and what happened in 1971 was the result of the Indo-Soviet Treaty that was the brainchild of former Ambassador to the USSR, Durga Prasad Dhar. The treaty ensured the entry of the USSR into any conflict involving India and a hostile force, and this was sufficient to keep China out of the ring despite plaintive cries from both Yahya Khan and Henry Kissinger for Beijing to send in its troops now that India had committed so many of its forces to the ongoing conflict with Pakistan
The not insubstantial task given to Moscow by Beijing is to ensure that New Delhi does not enter into a security pact that involves the United States, whether this be a bilateral treaty or as part of a newly formalised Quadrilateral Alliance. In the absence of such a treaty, it would be problematic for Washington to ensure the degree of logistical support that would be needed for the Indian armed forces (Army, Navy and Air Force) to take the battle into the territory of the attacker and humiliate the latter.
Indian Solar Module Manufacturer Lands $105 Million US Order
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/12/indian-solar-module-manufacturer-lands-105-million-us-order/amp/
Hello Razib,
Which mtDNA originating in the steppe cultures are present in South Asia today?
theorize possibly mine. I’m K1a, so the same as Colbert and Katie Couric. But I don’t know. It could also be Iranic related.
@Razib
Does editing a comment multiple times make it take a long time to appear. I had written a comment on the India-China conflict some time ago and it hasn’t appeared yet (the edits were mainly regarding the spacing as I needed to differentiate it into 3 parts)
What do people think of chip transplants and brain computer interface technology’s potential? Is it just hype, or is there any future? Recently, chips were transplanted in chimpanzees and pigs. Powering them is a problem, but wireless power transfer and back-scatter communication is now attempting to solve the problem.
If you are thinking of Neuralink, since it is linked to Musk, there is obvious hype. But from a technical stand point, there is some progress as well. From what I know, Musk has recruited a lot of smart people and started developing a platform which implements some of the low hanging fruit. Brain computer interfaces are actually very primitive and it is hard to design them properly because of low S/N ratio. It is very hard to classify the electrical/electromagnetic signals. We also don’t know of a good way to record and store the electrical signals generated in the brain.
UW actually had a good group doing computational neuroscience. If you are joining for masters there, its worth doing a side project there. I am sure they need some student who is familiar with coding.
This is a gleam of hope for a group in Balkan which had a half of brains removed couple hundreds of years ago and this became a hereditable feature. This sounds much more promising than the stem cell approach to regrow the other half. My full support to continue this research and let’s hope that not much timepass until we get some tangible results.
@Chittadhara
Thanks for your comment. Yes, UW is a nice place for BCI as well anything related to CS. Are you connected to UW? You know a lot about it. What do you think how many years it will take for commercialization of BCI? I think it will 5-10 years or so.
Signs of life detected on Venus…
https://mobile.twitter.com/brianroemmele/status/1304984620304232448
Paper is being published on sep 14
An article was published early and then retracted, still viewable on google cache.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dUWrpm80WHsJ:https://earthsky.org/%3Fp%3D343883+
Romans’ Venus and Greeks’ Aphrodite are recent replicas of ancient Priya.
Swami Agnivesh passed away on September 11th at the age of 80.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/swami-agnivesh-passes-away/article32583703.ece
Don’t know if anyone else knows him, in my circles he was well respected. He seemed like a rare thing, a truly genuine gentleman. A social activist, working to bring harmony as well as to address injustice. God bless you and keep you, may you find your eternal peace.
Though i hold opposing views to his, i still think he did a lot of work to emancipate bonded laborers and such, which i respect.
+1
Another fun positive thing about him, he was always dressed handsomely in bright Saffron. Never a wrinkle, never a stain!
Today is just a day to offer condolences and solace to his comrades and his followers. (He had no family as a Sanyasi that I know)
APthk’s tone has mellowed but his content is getting even more cringe:)
Well I agree with his main point.
Ie Indians are not some homogeneous blob of brown.
I mean we do have a certain look. But the average look varies a lot based on geography/jati.
But there is considerable range/ overlap as well.
https://twitter.com/brohit_98/status/1305242861013807105?s=21
Tweet thread ☝️
????
The Pandits! Back at it again!
Its a shame we didn’t have social media around during the Indian Mutiny. Imagine the sympathy points that could be aroused from Brits back in England, as they read the tearful account of a loyal sepoy’s sufferings, abused by the masses of Hindu and Muslim “extremists”, who turned their weapons against their foreign British occupiers, and would not spare the poor “native” collaborator.
I mean for a Pakistani U surely hold strong views about Indian mutiny. It would almost seem as if Pakistanis and their forefathers fought for Indian freedom. Lol.
It’s always sad to read this stuff…
But not as sad as the response that certain parties have to it.
Monthly reminder on the fate Hindu ‘collaborators’:
https://twitter.com/johnaustin47?lang=en
That;s the fate of all de-racinated Hindu communities.
Re: Wends (Wiltzes, Vendi) (cont.)
Pundits simply cannot get enough of knowledge…
We mentioned about the time when Wends were converted from paganism to Christianity, that English Wiltshire got its name from them, that they founded and lived in Brandenburg (i.e. Branibor), etc.
For pundits would be interesting a Wends’ practice of satya similar to their cousins in SAsia. There is one description of ‘sati’ in a Serbian tribe Kuci in India.
Wiki says: “Historical sources about the Wends are scanty, although, for example, St. Boniface 745-746. In a letter to King Eltibald of England, he describes them as follows: And in Veneda, that worst and most terrible human race, wives and husbands love and respect each other so much that women, when their husbands die, do not want to live. And among them is respected a woman who inflicts death on herself with her own hands and burns on the same bonfire with her husband. “[2]
Researchers can find interesting information about ‘sati’ but we can also see very deep roots of serbofobia which was present long before that time and continued up to today including contemporary BP pages.
Just a few other interesting things. Wends are also known earlier as Adriatic Veneti. They founded the city of Venice (i.e. Venetia, Venezzia) and this is still Italian name for Serbs. They were very famous as merchants, so the term ‘wendare’ still means ‘trading’. The name of ‘wending machine’ came from the name of Wends.
Apart from Vendi (Wends), there are so many other names (one researcher found 750 – seven hundred fifty!!!!) under which Serbian speaking tribes were known. One of them, probably a variation of Vendi (Wends), was Indi (Inds).
@Milan Todorovic
Sati History (from the paper “A Suicide By Self-Immolation — Psychosocial Perspectives”)
“”
Sati is commonly believed to be a Hindu practice. The custom of widow-burning, however, existed in several cultures, including the Teutons, Wends (7), ancient Slavs and Scandinavians (12). The kings of UR, the ancient Chinese and some early Indo-European people buried or burnt a man’s widow, horses and other cherished possessions with his corpse in order that he might have all that he loved and needed in the other world (4).
“”
Calling everything under the sun Serbian — without proof — does not make it so. Your language cannot be the oldest as it has some of the least number words from PIE — less that even Baltic, and behind a lot of other IE languages.
Who were Wends and ancient Slavs (this is oxymoron)? Who were Scandinavians (have a look the official title of Swedish and Danish kings for several hundreds of years until 1973). The reference (St. Boniface) says that Serbs (Wends) practiced sati and even you confirmed the same. What is the problem?
Italians still call Serbs – Veneti (usually one of the main streets in their cities is Via Veneto). Venetia (Venezzia actually means Serbia). All Serbian medieval kings had the names URos Stefan I, II, etc. Hungarians took this UR from Serbs with a meaning ‘Sir’.
@ Milan Todorovic
Do you know any history? You don’t even know that Ur was a Sumerian city state; stop posting claptrap — a standard-fare of yours. Is being Serb so bad that you now have to claim Mesopotamia too?
Furthermore, Slavics descended from Baltics — long after other IE cultures were formed. I know you won’t get the order. Cultures that are older than yours practised it; you even lived side by side with Iranians. A tribe of Slavics developed this culture indigenously — or picked it up somewhere, e.g., Teutons, Iranians, or Chinese — long after Steppe migrants came to India. For your information: It is the Steppe theory and not Vinca/Anatolian theory that is mainstream.
Toyota halts India expansion, blaming ‘we don’t want you’ taxes
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/business/india-business/toyota-halts-india-expansion-blaming-we-dont-want-you-taxes/amp_articleshow/78122890.cms
Piyush Goyal had said something about a gst rate cut for automobiles, maybe this statement is just to motivate the govt.
A new (2020) hypothesis on the relationship between Indo-Aryans and the BMAC people:
https://tinyurl.com/y4h4dgqo
A. Lubotsky, “What Language Was Spoken by the People of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex?”, in Paul W. Kroll, Jonathan A. Silk (eds.), _“At the Shores of the Sky”: Asian Studies for Albert Hoffstädt_, Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2020, pp. 5-11.
Quoting from p. 11:
“It seems attractive to assume that the southward movement of Indo-Aryans was simultaneous with the decline of the BMAC and was even triggered by it, since the profound changes in the economy of the BMAC would have forced the Indo-Aryan pastoralists to look for new markets. In the situation of an economic and political crisis, it is only to be expected that in their movement, the Indo-Aryans were joined by a sizable group of the BMAC people, who would bring their culture and the agricultural lifestyle with them. […] As we know from major people movements of the past, they often were multiethnic, and a joint movement of Indo-Aryans and the BMAC people would not be surprising at all. It would be nice to hear from the geneticists whether this scenario is in line with the genetic evidence. In view of the many samples from the necropolis in Gonur, we will undoubtedly hear more about this issue in the future. Up till now, the linguistic scenarios have time and again found support in the analyses of ancient DNA. Will this also here be the case?”
OIT will be disappointed because it obviously presents that Aryans existed. It is unclear why is more often used the term ‘Indo-Iranian’ as an alternative to ‘Aryan’.
And everything started from Proto-Indo-Iranian (about 2000BC…what’s happened with Indo-European?). It means (Proto)Aryans language(s) > Aryan (Indian wing) > Sanskrit > Middle Indic (Pali) > (Hindi, Bengali, Marathi, Sinhala, Panjabi, etc.)
To my knowledge, pretty accurate, I guess, grazie Francesco.
PS. I mentioned that is unclear why the diagram started in 2000BC with a ‘Proto-Indo-Iranian’ language. This ‘Proto’ is always clumsy and often a way to avoid using the right term. For e.g. we all speak Proto-Martian because one day some humans will leave on Mars. I wonder which is this PII language which connects Indo and Iranian branches of the Aryan language and which, at that time already had its alphabet for a couple thousands of years?
@Francesco Brighenti
I am sorry that I am forced to comment by @Milan Todorovic. Anything is possible, but Lubotsky’s scenario is unlikely as India does not have BMAC ancestry. Indo-Aryans (IA) — according to Narasimhan et al. — bypassed BMAC is a genetic fact. They made a journey of 2500-3000 kms from Eurasian Steppe in ~1700 BC through Inner Asian Moutain Corridor — exited it in ~1700 BC — to India, then doubled back to Turan after mixing in India, all happening in ~1700 BC.
Also, in Turan, IA then magically converted themselves to Steppe Late Bronze Age ancestry (SLBA) — an ancestry formed by mixing with East Asians. How many do you suppose they were in the first place? You know, India had a bigger population than Europe at that time.
Moreover, we see SLBA ancestry in Turan after 1500 BC; it must be Iranians as they lived in Turan later on — not Aryans — historically. Only time will tell though.
From what you posted, Lubotsky forgot about Iranians; they have to arrive at some point of time, you know; this makes this scenario practically impossible.
@Milan Todorovic
Stop posting misinformation — there is enough as it is in the world. The accepted theory is Steppe Theory. Last I checked Vinca is not on Steppe — that too long way off from it. Vinca also has Anatolian ancestry. This makes it impossible for them to have anything to do with Aryans. I earlier thought you genuinely did not know this, but now, I see you won’t even recognise that you are wrong. I must say: I am appalled at the perpetuation of lies by you. Please continue on saying: Slavic — that has less number of PIE words than even Baltic — is PIE.
Fwiw I do think that Balkans farmers had an impact on mlba people even though the victorious party in this interaction and conflict were the eba ancestors of the later mlba indo europeans so the majority of the culture still comes from eba indo europeans.
@DaThang
Yes, there was female mediated Anatolian ancestry in Yamnaya, but it appeared after the culture was formed (source is unclear). Also, Vincans — primarily having Anatolian descent — have the following Ydna haplogroups:
G2a2a1, G2a2a1a, G2a2a1a2a, G2a2a1a, G2a2b2a1a, H2
In that sense, Vinca/Anatolian theory is genetically not possible.
No I am talking about impact on mlba like Sintashta.
This day, 102 years ago the Thessaloniki front in the WW1 was broken. The First and the Second Serbian armies were the bearers of the breakthrough, which turned out to be decisive for the collapse of the Central Powers in the First World War – a month and a half later, Austro-Hungary, and soon Germany, capitulated. Serbian forces cut off the Bulgarian army and forced Bulgaria to lay down its arms on September 30, 1918. During the liberation of the homeland, the Serbs acted so quickly that the French command begged the Serbian Supreme Command to slow down the progress.
In the WW1 Serbia lost 1/3 of its total population or 55% of male population plus 9% of crippled.
Have an argument with my sister( ultra left) and me ( centre right) about what is right to say after my cousin said to my sister when she was lifting weights jokingly was” are you doing ego-lifting” and she flipped and conversation was kind of outraging and triggering when i said about Freedom of Speech and she said freedom of speech is” freedom to speak but don’t speak what is offensive to people”
She is kind of against my father and me ( could be justified) and particularly when i told her that i voted for Modi.
Is somebody the same situation as me?
How can we solve these kind of Family problems?
@Harshvardhan
Solution is: Experience and Knowledge. Right and left opinions are both right and wrong in a way.
“”
If you’re not a communist at the age of 20, you haven’t got a heart.
If you’re still a communist at the age of 30, you haven’t got a brain.
“”
The above quote is not fully applicable to Indian situation. Anyways, my advice is:
1. You should try the path of education and dialogue.
2. Encourage her to be friends with people who share your opinion.
3. Celebrities have a lot of influence; she maybe following her role model. Try to change that.
Yeah I think May cause i am unemployed i have more time to read and listen podcasts discussing issues of FOE.
I was asking do these kind of situation emerges in other families as well. These situation can cause family tensions.
She have said that Quran is a wonderful text( it could be) and Mahabharat is fake you know exactly the online and offline circles are. Everything is racist and sexist and transphobic without even thinking what the person is saying. The intention and context matters i think.
She have said that Quran is a wonderful text( it could be)
she’s lying tho. koran optimized for recitation. not narrative (look at the ordering of the text). it’s like the hebrew bible. parts of it are good narratives. but the priestly parts are boring a.f., but those sections are there for religious ritual instruction and law. not to be interesting
What you are describing is not normal. She seems to hate you all for some reason. It could be the result of peer group influence too; it can make a person very weird. I hope everything works out for your family.
“She have said that Quran is a wonderful text( it could be) and Mahabharat is fake”
Wow this does seem far extreme;
Yeah but not in the same sentence and not at the same time.
She said it’s wonderfully written. I guess that’s influence of her friends and she probably haven’t read it.
I haven’t as well( i tried to ) but i have been in Zakir Naik vs ex-muslims game long enough to know something about it.
She’s is probably very anti-Modi cause of her comments or jokes of when i got a nail injury that ” that’s happens when you vote for modi” but i don’t give a damn.
Question is : Do people in the age of social media even living in the same family can have so drastic different views on Religion,India etc that can cause familial tensions?
Her trajactory is different cause of South Delhi influence( Delhi university) and mine is different cause i studied in engg college.
Anyway thanks for your suggestion.
Don’t worry its a phase. Lot of folks go thru it.
Check out Scott Adams points on persuasion.
Oracle’s Ticktok deal is looking like Indulgences being sold to ByteDance by the US Government-Corporate mafiosi. It will do nothing to address underlying problems.
Thoughts?
Can you check and solve or give suggestions to solve my problems?
Has anyone else noticed Indian TV news getting more and more anti-modi these past few days?
I don’t know how much of the brown pundits readers watch Indian mainstream TV news.
Are you saying that news like Aaj Tak, India TV, TimesNow, ZeeNews has shifted from Nationalist POV to anti Modi News( likes of NDTV).
Cause I don’t know but my family always watched NDTV ( because of my father) until most of us stopped watching news altogether ( excluding my father) .
Ask her:
* How does she feel about taking instructions from an authoritative male (say you or your dad) on how to live her life? Every aspect of it!
* What would she do if he threatens to punish her if she does not obey?
* What would she do if he requires her to praise him for everything she has got?
If she says, she would resent it/not stand for it/fight it/leave/curse yadda yadda .., tell her that’s exactly what the book she thinks is awesome does! The difference is, the authority is the Male God instead of you or your dad.
If she says she is ok with that, hold her to it and start bossing her around 🙂 It would be nice to get a Leftie to make you breakfast and tea.
She is kind of Rebellious in nature as i was at some point. The upbringing has lot of do with it.( I dont think i will talk about that).
My Father is like any normal indian father just physical sometimes with both of us until say 2-3 years.
I would tell her just read the goddamn book.
My cousin read the quran cause he was genuinely curious and after reading he got scared of it.
Now he is calm and understand why certain people behave the way they do.
She in some case has proper lefty behaviour but i don’t mind that. Her definition of FOS is seriously one would not like. You can speak whattever unless you don’t offend someone. ( There is some good points(like rape threats, harrassment, transphobia etc shouldn’t be allowed) that she points out .
A muslim acquaintance of mine (from a liberal background) read the Koran only when he grew up and said he went into depression after reading it (of course he exaggerated, but still) . He turned sort of semi-agnostic after that.
Give her a backhand||