219 thoughts on “Open Thread – 09/12/2020”

  1. it appears indian army has shown its risk taking and out of box thinking in this chinese war. this is a good thing. pak is also having difficult time guessing indian moves.

    1. Interesting.

      I believe that as Indian Muslims get richer, they will be the ones exporting conservative Islam instead of the gulf states.

      Jamat-e-Islami and Tablighi Jamat and Deoband are all children of India (not even Pakistan or Bangladesh).

      1. Hey, while we are all waiting for Armageddon, having a little fun is not wrong. All for the holy pastime, raise your hands!

        P.S: What is the limit to verbal fighting?

    1. Yes, I saw that reconstructed chariot in Manjul’s talk. A much better elevation view is in the below article.


      Some key characteristics –

      1. Definitely from the Bronze Age – the amount of copper sheathing and rods in the chariot structure is quite high.

      2. I always wondered about the typical chariot that one could see in Bhagavad-Gita illustrations. Where the chariot would have a significant canopy. Even the ones in TV Mahabharata would have such canopies. And the Sanauli chariot has exactly such a copper tube for holding the Canopy (which might be cloth or straw construction)

      3. Now Piggott reconstructed the vipatha (Rgveda word for chariot) more than 150 years ago based on the descriptions in the Rgveda. The excavated Sanauli chariot matches that largely including the yoke angled upwards.


      4. The evolution of wheels in the modern era have been like this – solid, spoked, disc, multi-spoked, single alloy. Notice the third stage – a disc wheel is also a solid wheel but cast on one piece. Solid/Disc wheels are cheaper to make and replace. That’s why so many temple chariots in India have solid wheels even today.

      1. @Ugra
        Thanks for the Piggott link; I will definitely read it when I get time. Wheel technology tree is very intriguing. Do you know any book that describes it?

  2. Kamala Harris Is An Anchor Baby, Not A ‘Natural Born Citizen’ Of The United States

    The key question is whether Kamala Harris is a “natural born citizen” of the United States. According to the clearly written definition, which has been acknowledged for over two centuries, argues Mr. Sayre, if one of her parents was not a US Citizen at the time of her birth, she is not a natural born citizen.


    1. Roy, I not know who Mr. Sayre is, nor do I much care.

      The question is entirely within existing statutes:

      8 U.S. Code § 1401 – Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

      The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

      (a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

      The language of (a) is taken directly from Am. XIV §1:

      “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States”

      The force of that provision was established in U. S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) where the US Supreme Court held that a child born in the United States a citizen of the United States entitled to all the rights and privileges of citizenship, even though his parents were foreigners ineligible to be naturalized at the time he was born.

      Sen. Harris was undisputedly born at Oakland CA and is a citizen by birth, and is therefore a naturally born citizen.

      Even if the birth was by C-section:

      MACBETH: I bear a charmed life, which must not yield, to one of woman born.

      MACDUFF: Despair thy charm; and let the angel whom thou still hast served tell thee, Macduff was from his mother’s womb Untimely ripped.Scottih Play A. V, S. 8

  3. @Razib, i was looking at the qpADM estimates of different jaatis in narsimhan’s paper and i found that some of the bania castes like Agarwals of Delhi, Banias of UP have less steppe than many of the OBC jaatis of UP and similar steppe as some of dalit jaatis of UP like Jatavs . In that case, how true is this claim of ritual/varna status being correlated with steppe ancestry in the non north-west regions of india ? (Of course, varna has little correlation with dabangai(bullying behavior ) on ground but that’s a different story)

    1. Yeah I found that odd too. I am of Gujarati Jain vania origin and my steppe percent is roughly the same as Tambrahms. But the banias in Narsimhan paper are a bit lower. maybe just selection bias either way? Or the merchant castes just mixed more because capitalism leads to pragmatism more than hardcore honor culture orientation of priests and warrior caste? who knows. all conjecture

      1. @thewarlock, i consider it pretty normal considering the banias from UP and Bihar(and even Delhi) i have come across :).
        ” hardcore honor culture orientation of priests and warrior caste” — my understanding is that as we sample more rajput clans from MP and bihar, we would find some heterogeneity among them too.

        1. yeah most likely. Gujaratis also cluster a bit west of gangetic plains types, when adjusting for caste among priest, warrior, and merchant castes. Gujarati Brahmins are about as west shifted as Khatris actually per Narsimhan.

          I think gangetic plains had more tribal populations encountered as forests cleared by more westerly migrants

          1. GJ Brahmins have about as much steppe as UP Brahmins do. Khatris don’t have a lot more maybe 3 or 5% more. I’ll have to check the actual number.

    2. In that case, how true is this claim of ritual/varna status being correlated with steppe ancestry in the non north-west regions of India ?

      a correlation of .5 will have lots of residuals.

      i knew of all that. it looks like “IVC” is enriched in the guj=>south India zone. in contrast, steppe and AASI is enriched in the eastern gangetic plain. eg gangetic plains brahmins have way more steppe that some sindhis and guj, but also more AASI!

  4. So my view on Hinduism vs Paganism – a while back Razib said that Hinduism was not simply inchoate Indic Paganism.

    I have to say that to some extent I agree, but I think he overestimates its internal development. My theory is that “Hinduism” as we understand it was a result of post-vedic Brahmical cults trying to explain their beliefs in the terms of the Śramaṇas, either to them, or against them.

    With the end of the Vedic period there is a solid period in which we actually see very little in the way of Hindu Iconography. There are descriptions of cults, like those of the Vṛṣṇi heroes, but it isn’t until much later that we see them actually depicted. Similarly, in the South, there were still very “shintoesque” local cults that continued to thrive (continued megalithic until first centuries of common era). Even in South India today there are plenty of village temples that are unaltered, and a simple stone or pillar enshrines a local deity (though they today tend to be associated with more pan-Indic deities.)

    However, there is very little from the early classical period that indicates that these forms of worship had merged with the Brahmanical forms of religion, leading to a kind of triple division of between Śramaṇas, Brāhmaṇas, and local cults. At some point by the Gupta period, however, we see a merger of vedic deities into local cults. This creates a kind of scholar-priest class presiding over the recognisable “temple religion” we might understand as Hinduism today.

    As the Śramaṇas were the dominant intellectual strain, and the largest influence on outside invaders and neighbouring societies, the Brāhmaṇas now had to start explaining their beliefs in these terms, which creates what we recognise as “Hinduism” today.

      1. I’ve read your views closely, but I think there is a significant gap. “Hinduism” may not be inchoate paganism, but you’re assuming that it has seriously departed from paganism. Vedanta etc were relatively elite beliefs, and until the 1950s, the majority praxis resembled inchoate paganism. It wasn’t until broadcast media that the average villager had much of a conception of religion outside their village.

        It’s the same as Shinto, which for most people was just better organised animism, more like Totoro than Spirited Away. The more organised forms were never part of mainstream practice, but existed in an attempt to explain native religion in Buddhist and Taoist terms.

  5. Where does one get a DNA analysis done completely privately?
    Is there any company that will provide you the report and delete the master copy completely?
    The closest I have seen is

    But even they keep the copy in their database and supposedly allow you to control/sell it. Not good enough for me.

  6. i have been reading comments to pepe escobar’s article in unz review. might be some of you are also contributing comments. although the article is pedestrian, many comments show a deep bias against indians. who is this malla?, posting very long comments!!

    1. Unz is either a Mossad-sponsored honeytrap for WNs or he is the incarnation of Bobby Fischer. Depending on my mood when I wake up, I oscillate between the two explanations.

      More generally, his website is extremely pro-China. He was very early on in pushing the conspiracy theory that the US was the one who tried to genetically engineer a virus to kill millions of Chinese but it backfired and mutated.

      In other words, don’t be surprised about the bias on that site.

      1. lol I remember him from India vs. china IQ puzzle debate that spans thousands of pages lmfao. Same dude.

        But you’ve got to admit he is part of a tiny minority. The blog is pretty pro China. also, lower castes are trashed by pretty much everyone. No one is egalitarian pro India

        1. Rec1Man is like a caricature of a self-hating Indian guy, trying to differentiate based on his caste (probably a Brahmin)

          There is boarding school (Shantibhavan) started by an Indian American businessman that comprises of 95% Tamil Dalits and enrols the poorest of the poor based solely on need (no IQ selection)

          According to people who fixate on IQ as some sort of immutable characteristic (and just ignore the Flynn effect, circularity etc) like that Rec1man guy these kids should have an IQ that is lot lower than the Indian average of 84 right ?

          Since Rec1man thinks Brahmins are 2sd higher than average maybe Dalits are 1sd lower. So let’s say 70.
          Well school has been running for over 20 years to a lot of the early batches have gone on to become professionals and you can find videos online. There was a Netflix documentary.

          Go have a look and let me know if you think the kids have an average IQ of 70.
          “IQ realists” are engaging in motivated reasoning to reaffirm their own prejudiced views of people.

          1. “Indian average of 84”

            I don’t know what India’s true average is but 84 is kinda bs and mainly based on Richard Lynn’s works. He used some very dumb sources and methods to come up with the IQ scores (already posted about it in the past). He’s highly criticized in general.

          2. Methodology aside, I don’t view the 84 figure as set in stone, as I am not entirely convinced that IQ is measuring what it purports to measure.

            To use a Machine Learning analogy I think it may be measuring the relevance of the pre-test training data, in addition to the quality of the neural network architecture.

            It is strange that the Flynn effect is the strongest on more supposedly culture neutral g-loaded tests like ravens progressive matrices.

            It is a 2 sd increase in the last 100 years in Europe, so it’s not a small effect.

            I think we need to be careful with statistical constructs in general. People talk about IQ like it is height, it isnt.

    2. I think most (almost all?) Unz.com commenters are Steve Sailer commenters, and if you’ve read Sailer for a while (I encountered his writing in the mid-2000s), he and his blog commenters have an “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom”-like attitude towards India and Indians.

      Anyway, why does it matter that a bunch of random commenters on the internet (all on the white nationalist spectrum) dislike India?

  7. lol Unz has always had a hate boner for Indians. The comments tell the same story as the article.

  8. Last week there was a discussion about white-presenting vs. White-passing.
    Many South Indians are black-presenting (I am not sure if any took up to be black-passing given all the stories of people passing as WOC).

    I am curious to hear if there are any 1.5 or 2nd gen Americans with this experience.

    Someone like Russel Peters (comedian) can be black-passing if they chose to.
    Does anyone think future Indian-Americans will try black-passing for competitive advantage?

    1. I have a good friend who is a Sri Lankan Tamil guy.

      We were talking about BLM, and he sent me this video of a Sri Lankan Tamil diaspora group in discussing BLM:


      I remember jokingly saying that any police officer would think the two guys are black.

      So they wouldn’t really have any privilege in that regards. lol

  9. it’s taboo to pass as black if you are indian American, but i have heard of cases of ppl who do it besides mindy kaling’s brother. the best story is a woman (Bangladeshi) who hooked up with a guy who she had assumed was black but it turned out he was tamil. he just shaved his head and wore ‘black’ style clothing and spoke in a black inflection. he did it cuz it was easier to find women to hookup. with (see. above)

    but i’m brown enough if i shave my head i think i can pass as a black American. one time at a Mexican place they referred to me in Spanish when my head was shaved as ‘the black guy’

    1. “Jessica Krug, the white George Washington University professor who faked being Black, resigned Wednesday. Krug revealed she was actually white in a Medium post last week. * * *

      “The university announced Krug’s resignation in a tweet. She’s also been removed from the university website.

      “* * * In June, Krug called into a New York City Council meeting, called herself “Jess La Bombalera” and presented herself as a Latina woman.”


  10. IMHO, the only reason why some desis can ‘pass’ as black is because Americans are so ignorant about them (still). There may be extreme outliers (as that Bangladeshi girl who fell for a black-presenting Bangladeshi man) who can genuinely pass, but even Mindy Kaling’s brother definitely wasn’t black.

    It is *not* about the skin tone. It’s the facial structure. If you see enough desis you can definitely tell who is and who isn’t black in the vast majority of cases, even for very dark people. I assume as more desis become more common in pop culture (which is still far from the case), these opportunities for ‘passing’ will start to fade.

    1. Also height length index. African blacks have long heads wrt skull height. Not always but on average, while south Indians are usually hypsicranic (the opposite).

  11. the guy was tamil.

    anyway, if you are an immigrant, you walk differently than Americans. so that’s a tell. i had a friend who saw a black guy at a math conference which was rare. but he realized something was off with the way he walked, and it turned out to be a very dark south indian academic.

    1. Yeah that’s why 1.5gen or 2nd gen Americans are a different matter.

      If not for cultural markers, it’s hard to tell. Like that Tamil guy, people may try it for other advantages.

      I have seen a few 1.5gen Sri Lankan Tamils who can absolutely pass as Blacks if they chose to. But then, their Tamil wins out when they hear anyone speaking Tamil.

  12. About that supposed ’84 Indian IQ’ thing that someone referenced, which originated from Lynn. Aside from his serious methodological flaws which have been mentioned, it’s worth bringing up the fact that Indian-Singaporeans earn as much, if not more, than ethnic Chinese despite mostly coming from poor indentured servants.

    There has been an influx in the last 30 years of more skilled Indian migrants, but even if you look at 1990 earnings, Indians were barely 10% behind the Chinese.


    So if Indians from a very poor and disadvantaged background can rise to that level, then there are good reasons to be long-term optimistic about India. I am that, just as I am short- to medium-term pessimistic about India due to the state governments’ utter failure to properly educate their children.

    1. some issues

      1) india is the home of cretinism. the average is suppressed by bad nutrition/hygiene (the until recent ubiquity of outdoor defection might. be underestimated hit to child dev)

      2) India is genetically diverse enough that average for a quant trait is not useful. some group are higher some lower. china is homogeneous enough average is more useful

      3) seems consistent that when you take unselected/filtered indians and Chinese the latter do do better on psychometric tests, though in some places gap is not large. in. the USA the earliest Chinese and Japanese communities were from poor classes without land, but these became the core of the ‘model minority’

  13. The Mystery of the Lockdowns

    “In ‘How many lives would a more normal president have saved?’ New York Times columnist Ross Douthat wonders how many Americans died because of President Trump’s “abnormal” reluctance to embrace stricter lockdown measures. Douthat’s speculations probably never get close to the likely correct answer, though, which is zero: a “more normal” president would have saved zero extra lives.

    That’s because recent studies find little evidence that differences in lockdown policies have had any effect on the pandemic.

    It’s a mystery why governments were and remain eager to plunge along a path with such meager benefits to offset daunting costs. The costs include not only the worst world recession in modern times but also the emergency powers states have seized to enforce the lockdowns and the resulting loss of civil liberties by citizens.

    The citizens’ loss has been the state’s gain. A new study finds that governments have declared emergencies mainly because of the new powers they stand to gain, not the severity of the pandemic.”


  14. @Milan Todorovic
    I have no problem in talking about Steppe or genetics. What is true is true. However, your posts on Indian issue — that have nothing to do with Vinca/Balto Slavics — are not right. If you have anything to say regarding Indians — good or bad — you are welcome, but won’t it be great if you can limit yourself to topics that the post mentions? After all, OPs expect discussion regarding what they have written, and it is disrespectful if random matters are discussed on their posts. You can post whatever you want in Open Thread.

    Also, swastika has been used in India since before Harappan times. So, I don’t know what you wish to say through it. Random similarities mean nothing on their own.

    1. @Milan Todorovic
      Since you asked when the earliest Swastika is found in India: The earliest evidence of Swastika in Madhya Pradesh, India is dated to at least 10,000 B.C. — if not earlier — suggesting indigenous origin of swastika .This predates Vinca by 5000-6000 years, and it is at least contemporary to or predates Ukraine Swastika. Furthermore, it was wrong on my part to post such a harsh message earlier, and I recognise that I should not have done so.

    2. The spread of swastika in India is probably associated with the spread of Iran mesolithic/epipaleolithic populations into India. I think that the spread of swastika ultimately shows the spread of ane ancestry just like in the Americas. Maybe also associated with the spread of the micro blade culture types which originated in northern Asia. This association is more clear in Europe where it is easy to distinguish ane based groups from those that are not while the association in India may not appear as clear because of multiple ane waves. At least 2, maybe even more.

      1. @DaThang
        I don’t know much about Indian ancestry, but I would definitely like to learn more:
        1. Is AASI also ANE?
        2. Also, is SE Asian ancestry from which AASI branched off also ANE?
        3. When was ANE formed?
        4. Is there any book with chart that mentions all these ancestries?

        1. ANE comes from ANS. ANS has some ancestry from an eastern non-African source. It seems to be Salkhit though the Tianyuan yDNA (K2b) looked like it would be a close match.

          Some west Eurasian (maybe Aurignacian) + Some ENA (maybe Salkhit) = ANS
          ANS -> ANE (might or might not involve Dzudzuana-like input)
          Proto WHG + basal Eurasian = Dzudzuana.
          Dzudzuana + Basal + ANE (+ maybe other minor inputs) = Iran mesolithic.
          Iran mesolithic/epipaleolithic could have inherited the Swastika from ANE.

  15. Swastika Origin (https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/s/Swastika.htm)

    Origin hypotheses

    The ubiquity of the swastika symbol is easily explained by it being a very simple symbol that will arise independently in any basketweaving society. The swastika is a repeating design, created by the edges of the reeds in a square basket-weave. Other theories attempt to establish a connection via cultural diffusion or an explanation along the lines of Carl Jung’s collective unconscious.

    While the existence of the swastika symbol in the Americas may be explained by the basket-weave theory, its American presence weakens the cultural diffusion theory. While some have proposed that the swastika was secretly transferred to North America by an early seafaring civilization on Eurasia, a separate but parallel development is considered the most likely explanation.

    Yet another explanation is suggested by Carl Sagan in his book Comet. Sagan reproduces an ancient Chinese manuscript that shows comet tail varieties: most are variations on simple comet tails, but the last shows the comet nucleus with four bent arms extending from it, recalling a swastika. Sagan suggests that in antiquity a comet could have approached so close to Earth that the jets of gas streaming from it, bent by the comet’s rotation, became visible, leading to the adoption of the swastika as a symbol across the world.

    Bob Kobres in Comets and the Bronze Age Collapse (1992) contends that the swastika-like comet on the Han Dynasty silk comet atlas was labeled a “long tailed pheasant star” due to its resemblance to a bird’s foot., and further suggests that many swastika and swastika-like motifs may have been representations of bird tracks, including many of those found by Schliemann.

    Barbara G. Walker, author of The Woman’s Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects, claims that the crux dissimulata, an early swastika, represented the four winds. Concerning the short-armed version of this symbol, known as the gammadion because it is made up of four Greek gammas, Walker says this symbol was an emblem of the ancient goddess and probably represented “the solstices and equinoxes, or the four directions, four elements, and four divine guardians of the world.”

    1. It seems, you as a recent visitor, should first study this blog and find out who is writing what. I already suggested Razib to introduce the induction procedure at BP, where rookies would be assigned a buddy to work with them. You do not need to patronize me and give me directions what I could or should write. I do write about Euro-SA historical connections (especially ancient) and historical falsifications. I also make parallels related to practicing the taqiya in Europe and SA. Rarely, I write about global topics (e.g. culture, geostrategy, military, etc). I do not write about modern Indians although I know personally many of them. In the past, I wrote about English genocide in India where they killed several dozens of millions of people, about Churchill’s opinion about Indians, etc. I even offered to make a first draft of the request document for apology from British Crown and Parliament for their past deeds. No one was interested to be involved probably because of the fear of losing their residency status or future benefits. After that, I do not write about contemporary Indians because all other know these things much better than me.

      I don’t understand the statement about me negating (?) the link btw. Indians (?) and so-called Balto-Slavics(who are they?). The fact is that ancient Slavics (=Serbs) have the same genetics with 150+ million SAsians. This should be explained. You may suggest your knowledge, opinion or speculation. The fact is that swastika was found in Vinca and it was a ‘letter’ in the world oldest alphabet (=rising sun, infinite energy). I did not say that Vinca’s swastika is the oldest. Who lived in today’s Ukraine? Do you know the boundaries of Vinca’s civilisation? And, there was a swastika 5000 years before Vinca in Harappa (it means cca 11000 BC)? Tell us something about Harappa in 11000BC, I would be interested to know. Tell us how, when and by whom the swastika from Harappa was transferred to Vinca (and Ukraine). Or, you can tell us where future Indians lived during the Ice Age (12000+ BC)?

      You can make a comparison with Lepenski Vir, ‘the oldest city in Europe’, at the same time. It would be probably the last from me, it is pretty time consuming going back to square one and repeating basics again and again.


      1. Your BS is getting ridiculous. Everything is Ancient Serbs to you. You have the most warped and racist attitude that strips others of their achievements, and steals them for you own. Your ridiculous and incoherent ramblings should stay in your ultra-nationalist troll farm.

        1. It seems you are definitely the top serbofob here, overtaking all taqiyamen. You should ask for professional help. I only said above that Slavics, before this term was invented in the 7th cAC were Serbs, based on the language they spoke. In the 8th cAC, first of future Slavics’ names appeared was the Russian name, other came much later. Also, the fact is the same genetics btw Serbs and millions of SAsians. You are occupied with your hatred and unable to say anything specific. Are you saying that this genetics similarity is untrue? Can you state in which direction genes went 4000 years ago (either way is good for me) or give us a simple answer – who were Aryans? East Europeans?

          1. That isn’t English, and barely makes any sense, so I am guessing at what you might be trying to ramble about. I have no idea what a Serbofop is, so you might want to get some English lessons before typing nonsense.

            The Slavs never called themselves Serbs prior to the 7th century, and their original language was not Serbian, and Vinca was not Serbian. The ethnogenesis of the Slavs is agreed to be in the Pripyet marshes region, with the Serbs emerging amongst the South Slavic people in a migration south.

            Get it through your head – Vinca wasn’t Serbian, the Steppe people were not Serbian, Alexander the Great was not Serbian, Constantine was not Serbian, and ancient Indians were not Serbian. Your anachronistic geographical references are as stupid as saying that Moctezuma was Spanish.

          2. I predicted long time ago that oit if continue their way would finish in lunacy. You are such example. What is the significance of any your opinion about history if you do not recognize the existence of Aryans? Because you are avoiding to explain the same genetics btw some Indians and Slavics. It is illusory asking who Aleksander Karanovic the Great was. Why don’t you comment on Francesco’s comment?

            What remains? Just plain, naked, a la taqiyamen serbofobia (or serbophobia).

          3. @Milan Todorovic
            What do you get by posting stuff that is patently wrong? Stop denigrating Vincans; they have nothing to do with Aryans; embrace their Anatolian identity and revel in their accomplishment. Your abuse and slander of Vincans is seriously reprehensible.

    2. @Violet
      What is this Big Dipper rotation hypothesis? My understanding is that Swastika is a common symbol created independently; if I knew about ancestral streams and their charts I could be more sure.

    3. @Milan Todorovic
      IVC originated in Mehrgarh, which formed pre 7000 B.C. (exact date unsure) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh) Were there other influences on Mehrgarh too — like from interior of India? Nothing is known. You ask people about AASI genetics, they become quiet because they don’t know. Archaeologically, India is a virgin territory; Indians are busy trying to make a living rather than understand past.

      Now, Harvard researchers have been trying to tie IVC with Elamite civilization; even that has failed. Now it is impossible as IVC does not have Anatolian ancestry. Right now the only thing we know is that Iran_N and AASI that descended from east asia mixed. Reich has been hypothesizing that AASI was the first to arrive, but we don’t know that for sure. Not many people know that he has been consistently wrong on India since 2009. So, I don’t know how much we can rely on him.

      1. Agree. Its not a certainty that AASI arrived first. Ydna H has its brothers mostly in the west. Could be basal eurasian arrived first or something similar to crown eurasian.

    1. What’s more ironic ? The first real mainstream neo liberal “right” paper Indian express doing a deep dive on mnrega

  16. Desis cant pass as Blacks to even the most race-blind observer IMO. A good test would be to place these so-called Black passing Desis in a SSA country and vice-versa and then see if the natives recognize them as their own. It wouldn’t work. Also, as far as America (and the New World) goes, race is a complex and touchy subject. African Americans in particular have a long and complex ancestral history, and people who identify as “Black” in America range from Barack Obama to Wentworth Miller; this makes for a lot of flexibility and a certain “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” approach when it comes to Black self-identification and ancestry. It also allows a whole range of people, with different complexions from Black to White, and with different bone structures, facial features and skulls from Negroid to Caucasoid to pass as “Black” as well. Daniel Hale Williams anyone? The first “Black” surgeon to do an open-heart surgery successfully (and the first open heart surgery, period) and yet he doesn’t fit the description of even a “mixed” “Black” man according to most Americans.

    The lack of familiarity with dark-skinned peoples, both dark-skinned Caucasians, Latinos, and Asians, also complicates things quite a bit, leading to some ignorant and uninformed people to make some truly dumb observations or guesses about someone’s ancestral background. Most people just assume that only SSA or heavily SSA-derived people can be darker than a Fitzpatrick 4 on the Fitzpatrick scale, when that is clearly not the case. People all across Eurasia, including many in MENA countries can have dark brown skin, sometimes bordering on an almost-Black complexion when heavily tanned. This isn’t something that is limited to South Asia. SE Asians and Latin Americans also have many people with very dark skin, even when they lack any Black ancestry. Would all of these people be classified as Black by outsiders? I don’t think so.
    Besides, South Asians have 0% SSA/Black ancestry anyway, and lack the anthropological features of Black people; they don’t have a Negroid or Negroid-influenced skull, or prognathism, or the flared nostrils and wide and low bridge of the African “nose”; they dont have the same eye-shapes as Africans or the same spacing of the sockets, nor do they have the dentition found in Africans, nor the lips, nor the steatopygia commonly seen in many African men and women. They don’t have African hair texture, and they lack the wide foreheads that Africans often have as well. Furthermore, they lack the body and limb proportions and build of Africans as well, in addition to possessing different compositions of muscle fibers used in things like sprinting, and have different skin undertones and shades, as well as different genes for pigmentation as well.

    If anything, even the Arabs, who all have varying levels of SSA ancestry, don’t pass as Black in the vast majority of cases, except when they have heavy amounts of SSA. African Americans like Colin Kaepernick have more than a passing resemblance to many Gulf Arabs due to obvious reasons and there’s plenty more where that came from. Arabs thus have a much better case for passing as “Black” than any South Asian. Add the “one-drop” rule and the complicated history of Black self-identification in the United States to the mix, and it further strengthens the case for the “Blackness” of Arabs. But this is on a case-by-case basis, and even then, not set in stone.

    Rachel Dolezai sure fooled a lot of people by just getting a tan and a perm, yet she’s of full European descent, and there’s plenty more examples where that came from. So even European people without any Black ancestry can “pass” as Black in social settings in the New World/United States, but I dont think this means anything in the anthropological and “real” sense. Given all of this information, I dont think Vijay Chokalingam’s experience means anything as far as South Asians “passing for Black” is concerned. The same applies to other South Asians who try to pass as African American as well. Its an anomaly/fluke with no real significance for the racial classification and perception of South Asians, any more than it holds significance for Arabs, or Latinos/Hispanics, or dark SE Asians, or even Europeans with a Perm and a tan.

    1. Well, there are historic castes of Subsaharan Africans in India and Pakistan.


      Brought over recently by Islamic rulers, most of them are in modern day Pakistan and are Muslim. But they are also present in Gujarat and Karnataka, where some even follow Hinduism.

      1. Ah, but the Siddi are a hyper-minority of endogamous people that don’t really constitute a caste in the traditional sense, due to their huge amounts of SSA ancestry/isolation from others/ostracization in South Asian society. They are also a remnant of the Arab/East African Slave trade, when some Siddis were brought over to the West coast of the subcontinent, and many actually established their own little kingdoms for a short while, as the Siddis did in Janjira. On the whole, they don’t have much visibility in South Asian society, far less than even the Parsi, who have played a much more siginficant role despite being a small minority as well.

        An actual African/South Asian mix that IS drawing attention in South Asia, or India to be specific, is Masaba Gupta, the illegitimate love-child born of a one-night stand to Neena Gupta and Vivian Richards. She apparently commands enough importance to merit her own high-production value Netflix show that portrays her as a celebrated fashion designer and socialite in Mumbai. Quite progressive for a South Asian-centric Netflix show.

    2. I don’t think you have seen enough South Indian phenotypes to comment that desis can’t pass as black.

      Many black people on Toronto subway and Bay Area transit mistook me for black. I am not an American born and so, my accent is a dead giveaway. I am as regular as any South Indian (I.e. you can’t pick me as stand out in any group pictures from back-home).

      Also, it appears you don’t know enough Ethiopians to know how “Indian” they look. Be it facial structure or hair.

      1. @Violet
        I have read a lot of your posts, and I must say you are very knowledgeable. So, I thought about asking what do you know regarding Brain computer interface (BCI). Is it a promising technology?

        Nowadays, Wireless Power Transfer + Back-scattering communication seems to be all the rage in BCI. Will there be an industry around it or will it die off?

  17. The IQ discussion always makes me laugh. When most of the subcontinent is barely able to feed and clothe its populace, taking IQ tests at face value is really a rather low-IQ thing to engage in. Apart from the obvious things like malnutrition and disease, cultural and academic barriers due to poor access to education and generations of illiteracy further complicate things as well.

    The other issue is, the Indian diaspora, which largely stems from a lower-caste and lower SES background in many cases, has done rather well for itself on the academic front and with SES status. Nearly all diaspora communities exceed the average SES of the natives, even in White-majority countries. In most cases, it is higher than East Asians as well. I don’t think this would have been possible had their genetic potential/genetic IQ not been at the very least, equal to other Asians, be they East or SE Asians. In fact, IIRC, the digit-span test that was administered to the children of South Asian immigrants/first generation of South Asians in America showed an average IQ higher than the Ashkenazim, and at the 80th percentile of the White American IQ. Keep in mind, this was done without collating data with respect to caste, but it is safe to say that the people sampled were definitely not all “Jats” or “Khatris” or “UP/Kashmiri/Gujarati/South Indian Brahmins” etc. In fact, they probably mirrored the Indian American community pretty nicely, which is to say that they represented low to middle-caste Gujaratis, Tamils, Telugus, Malayalis and Gangetic/Cow belt generic/lower castes pretty well, in addition to Bengalis as well.

    Finally, I dont see why high-AASI folk would have lower IQ than their other Asian brethren. AASI is after all, a fundamentally “Asian” component, and as Razib stated once, deeply nested within the larger Asian cluster/race. As such, folks with large amounts of AASI ancestry as found among the non-Twice born and non-NWners, would only have higher IQs than those with less AASI. Take a look at the Nobel Laureates of India, none are NW elite castes, and with the exception of Sen, all are part of what is considered “lower caste” in the North/North West. Even the vast majority of the most erudite and academically successful Indian Americans dont hail from Brahmin castes with huge amounts of Steppe and InPe ancestry; on the contrary, a quick look at the prominent list of Indian Americans on Wikipedia shows that the vast majority are no different from the generic North Indian UP-wala or South Indian middle caste, and are even more admixed in many cases. Keeping in mind the fact that high SES is correlated with IQ, and the aforementioned average IQ of Indian Americans, and knowing that the vast majority of India’s population is concentrated in the North, which shares an AASI profile similar to most Indians in the South and East, I don’t see why the average IQ/genetic potential of Indians as a whole in not in the mid 90’s to 100 at the very least, which is not any different from White Americans, for instance.

    1. I agree

      also arguably the smartest brahmin groups are about as AASI as Gujarati mid caste like myself and the most AASI brahmins in India. So this stuff breaks down.

      Anyway,one can still argue artificial selection pressures and endogamy all day. racialist have nothing better to do.

      1. thewarlock
        How AASI are the Saraswat Brahmins from MH/Goa/KT coast? (SB/GSB as they are called).
        This community seems to be over represented in all things academics.(Perhaps second only to Bengalis and the Iyengar/Iyers)

    2. Upper castes are over represented in the American diaspora. Which one are you referring to? UK?

      As for india iq talk, I sound like a broken record by this point saying that it is more than half an sd above the commonly cited numbers. A good way to know for sure would be to do the polygemic tests on as many indian populations as possible. India has many distinct subpopulations and as razib said a singe number while it is obtainable will not be meaningful since group averages will differ within India. I would expect this not so meaningful result to be comparable to Latino averages which is more than 0.75 sd above what is commonly cited as the supposed indian amount. The exact polygenic score will vary as estimations improve over time but I anticipate that it will be in the Chilean or Argentinean range for the not so meaningful average value.

      1. @DaThang, I think you posted it before, but do you have an email address I can reach you at? I need to learn from your big-brained wisdom. (And in case that comes across as patronizing or if it sounds facetious, its not, I promise.)

  18. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/real-face-of-jinnah-new-book-says-he-never-wanted-a-united-india/articleshow/78084562.cms

    Real face of Jinnah: New book says he never wanted a united India

    “Eventually when Partition happened, Jinnah complained about having received a “moth-eaten Pakistan”. But it appears that he wanted further division of India with a separate state for the Sikhs comprising the princely states in East Punjab and a separate Dravidistan in South India.
    “His main offer was to agree to substantial autonomy for Sikhs if they agreed to support his demand for partition. Similarly, he encouraged the Dravidian leaders to demand a separate state – this idea was originally of Rahmat Ali. However, in early March 1940 when Dr Ambedkar and Periyar met Jinnah at his Bombay house, no agreement was reached to form an alternative party to the Congress. Both Ambedkar and Periyar were disappointed with Jinnah. Ambedkar wrote against Islam using very strong words which up until then he used for Hinduism’s notorious caste system,” Ahmed says

    This was in keeping with the League’s ‘hostage theory’. “The assumption was that there would be substantial minorities in both India and Pakistan. That would mean that if Indian Muslims were coerced by Hindus in India, then Hindus in Pakistan would be given a tough time,” Ahmed explains. “Interestingly, on March 30, 1941 he was asked to explain what the fate of Muslims left in India would be… Jinnah in a fit of anger told them that he would make 2 crore Muslims taste martyrdom and be smashed in order to liberate 7 crores. The actual numbers left in India were 35 million,” Ahmed says.”

    1. The secular Pak myth has been created by the present day Pakistani secularists to appropriate Jinnah (since Iqbal is totally out of bounds to them!) It is largely based on his non pious personal life but singularly pivots on that August speech.
      I think this guy came on the you tube channel of Arvind Saharan.
      The two main takeaways-
      a) The speech was made mostly for the Western audience and was more of a pragmatic/political speech.
      b) It was also directed to the Indian leadership…to prevent flooding Pak with millions of additional Mussalmans and creating resource problems. (another example of Jinnah’s pragmatism)
      Make perfect sense.
      I have seen many explanations as to how this speech does not fit the pattern of Jinnah’s actions and also all the rest of his speeches/utterances, but these two points do not get made often enough.
      I got into this twitter argument with one such secular Pak Nationalist named Yasser Latif Hamdani. I tried to pick apart his ( and by extension Ayesha Jalal’s) arguments but then he started abusing me.
      I wished him well and got off his timeline.
      Frankly, perpetuating this myth is better for them as a nation!
      I would rather have them build Jinnah up as some kind of secular humanist idol and make Pak in that image than follow the Zia model.
      I only discovered this blog last week over the long weekend but I think I have learned so much from the thoughtful discussions here. Unfortunately a lot of it has confirmed by already held opinions, but at least has reinforced my reasoning with additional data/insights ( special thanks to Razib, Warlock, Slapstik,Apthk, Gaurav, Burnt out and many more) . I hope more Pakistanis engage with the Blog.
      Oh, the Blog also explains why I feel this strange affinity to the Serbians!

  19. Anyway, speaking of racial dynamics, it seems that the Jats have been making a name for themselves for quite some time now, even in Hollywood blockbusters like the ones directed by Steven Spielberg.

    The Lost World, which is the sequel to Jurassic Park, had a main character played by a White British guy no less, named Ajay Sidhu, Sidhu being a common Jatt surname. Surprisingly enough, they didn’t alter his appearance for the role, apart from a slight tan that is evident in the film. And he looks fully Jatt as well. Still from the film: https://www.jurassicworld.com/sites/default/files/styles/double_tall_card/public/2016-10/2240_00331_tall.jpg?itok=1odfca5L

    I thought it was incredible that Spielberg recognized way back in 1996 that there were different races in India, and that one of these races was the great Caucasian race, represented by Jatts in the NW of India. He even gave the character a Hindu Jatt background and name and chose a WASP who looks and easily passes as a Hindu Jatt to play the role. I didn’t realize Hollywood was so aware and culturally sensitive back in the 90s, not to mention the fact that even some WASP individuals can pass as Jatts with ease.

    Of course, Jeff Goldblum, despite being a Jewish Caucasian, also easily passes as a Hindu Jatt. Reminds me of my uncle actually, almost a doppelgänger of his. We have some connections with the Semitic Chosen People that I can’t explain. I’ve seen quite a few Ashkenazim that pass as Jatt with flying colors.

    Ajay met an untimely demise in the film, like many other characters, but he was quite memorable for me, even as a child, when I was unaware of how his Indian identity was so significant in a social sense. I was just glad to see a familiar name in a dinosaur movie. They even got his accent right, instead of using a caricature of an accent, they used one typical of educated NWners: https://youtu.be/raXWIDbugag

    1. Lolol.

      Man you think Spielberg went from depicting Indians as monkey brain eaters in temple of doom to understanding the minute details of Jaat samaj surnames And accent ?

      And then hired a white actor to play the Jaat in recognition of Jatt steppe ancestry / looks?

      You are confusing Spielberg with some other director I am afraid.

    2. “We have some connections with the Semitic Chosen People that I can’t explain”

      >>> I wrote before about Ramzes’s II daddy Seti (Sethos) II, city of Kedem, etc.

  20. Read some online commenter recently that Indians are the new Jews in US media depiction.

    They are untrustworthy, penny-pinching and dishonest (Apu). But they are also intelligent, prudish and wonkish (Koothrapali). Glad that Hasan Minhaj regularly show up the supposedly anti- M acts and behaviour of everyday Indians. Gives the average American something new to digest.

  21. Modi can repeat 1971 and ensure a 1962 in reverse

    Stuff I found the most concerning( I haven’t heard the third one anywhere else, I’d like to know if you guys think it’s true/likely) –

    Beijing intends to take control of the entirety of the Himalayan massif, the South China Sea and Taiwan. There needs to be a military victory as in 1962, not a stalemate as in Vietnam in 1979. The South China Seas are crawling with naval craft of multiple countries, including India, and is at present therefore a difficult location to score a swift triumph. As for Taiwan, from almost the start of her first term in office, President Tsai Ing-wen has focused on linking her country to the US defence supply chain…………. in the absence of a clear understanding between India and the US about mutual security, the Himalayan massif seems to be the option offering a higher chance of a PLA success in 2021 than clearing the South China Sea of foreign navies by the PLA Navy or an attempted takeover or even blockade of Taiwan.

    Much of the difference between what took place in 1962 and what happened in 1971 was the result of the Indo-Soviet Treaty that was the brainchild of former Ambassador to the USSR, Durga Prasad Dhar. The treaty ensured the entry of the USSR into any conflict involving India and a hostile force, and this was sufficient to keep China out of the ring despite plaintive cries from both Yahya Khan and Henry Kissinger for Beijing to send in its troops now that India had committed so many of its forces to the ongoing conflict with Pakistan

    The not insubstantial task given to Moscow by Beijing is to ensure that New Delhi does not enter into a security pact that involves the United States, whether this be a bilateral treaty or as part of a newly formalised Quadrilateral Alliance. In the absence of such a treaty, it would be problematic for Washington to ensure the degree of logistical support that would be needed for the Indian armed forces (Army, Navy and Air Force) to take the battle into the territory of the attacker and humiliate the latter.

    1. theorize possibly mine. I’m K1a, so the same as Colbert and Katie Couric. But I don’t know. It could also be Iranic related.

  22. @Razib
    Does editing a comment multiple times make it take a long time to appear. I had written a comment on the India-China conflict some time ago and it hasn’t appeared yet (the edits were mainly regarding the spacing as I needed to differentiate it into 3 parts)

  23. What do people think of chip transplants and brain computer interface technology’s potential? Is it just hype, or is there any future? Recently, chips were transplanted in chimpanzees and pigs. Powering them is a problem, but wireless power transfer and back-scatter communication is now attempting to solve the problem.

    1. If you are thinking of Neuralink, since it is linked to Musk, there is obvious hype. But from a technical stand point, there is some progress as well. From what I know, Musk has recruited a lot of smart people and started developing a platform which implements some of the low hanging fruit. Brain computer interfaces are actually very primitive and it is hard to design them properly because of low S/N ratio. It is very hard to classify the electrical/electromagnetic signals. We also don’t know of a good way to record and store the electrical signals generated in the brain.

      UW actually had a good group doing computational neuroscience. If you are joining for masters there, its worth doing a side project there. I am sure they need some student who is familiar with coding.

      1. This is a gleam of hope for a group in Balkan which had a half of brains removed couple hundreds of years ago and this became a hereditable feature. This sounds much more promising than the stem cell approach to regrow the other half. My full support to continue this research and let’s hope that not much timepass until we get some tangible results.

    2. @Chittadhara
      Thanks for your comment. Yes, UW is a nice place for BCI as well anything related to CS. Are you connected to UW? You know a lot about it. What do you think how many years it will take for commercialization of BCI? I think it will 5-10 years or so.

    1. Though i hold opposing views to his, i still think he did a lot of work to emancipate bonded laborers and such, which i respect.

      1. +1
        Another fun positive thing about him, he was always dressed handsomely in bright Saffron. Never a wrinkle, never a stain!
        Today is just a day to offer condolences and solace to his comrades and his followers. (He had no family as a Sanyasi that I know)

    1. Well I agree with his main point.

      Ie Indians are not some homogeneous blob of brown.

      I mean we do have a certain look. But the average look varies a lot based on geography/jati.

      But there is considerable range/ overlap as well.

    1. ????

      The Pandits! Back at it again!

      Its a shame we didn’t have social media around during the Indian Mutiny. Imagine the sympathy points that could be aroused from Brits back in England, as they read the tearful account of a loyal sepoy’s sufferings, abused by the masses of Hindu and Muslim “extremists”, who turned their weapons against their foreign British occupiers, and would not spare the poor “native” collaborator.

      1. I mean for a Pakistani U surely hold strong views about Indian mutiny. It would almost seem as if Pakistanis and their forefathers fought for Indian freedom. Lol.

    2. It’s always sad to read this stuff…

      But not as sad as the response that certain parties have to it.

  24. Re: Wends (Wiltzes, Vendi) (cont.)

    Pundits simply cannot get enough of knowledge…

    We mentioned about the time when Wends were converted from paganism to Christianity, that English Wiltshire got its name from them, that they founded and lived in Brandenburg (i.e. Branibor), etc.

    For pundits would be interesting a Wends’ practice of satya similar to their cousins in SAsia. There is one description of ‘sati’ in a Serbian tribe Kuci in India.

    Wiki says: “Historical sources about the Wends are scanty, although, for example, St. Boniface 745-746. In a letter to King Eltibald of England, he describes them as follows: And in Veneda, that worst and most terrible human race, wives and husbands love and respect each other so much that women, when their husbands die, do not want to live. And among them is respected a woman who inflicts death on herself with her own hands and burns on the same bonfire with her husband. “[2]

    Researchers can find interesting information about ‘sati’ but we can also see very deep roots of serbofobia which was present long before that time and continued up to today including contemporary BP pages.

    Just a few other interesting things. Wends are also known earlier as Adriatic Veneti. They founded the city of Venice (i.e. Venetia, Venezzia) and this is still Italian name for Serbs. They were very famous as merchants, so the term ‘wendare’ still means ‘trading’. The name of ‘wending machine’ came from the name of Wends.

    Apart from Vendi (Wends), there are so many other names (one researcher found 750 – seven hundred fifty!!!!) under which Serbian speaking tribes were known. One of them, probably a variation of Vendi (Wends), was Indi (Inds).

  25. @Milan Todorovic
    Sati History (from the paper “A Suicide By Self-Immolation — Psychosocial Perspectives”)
    Sati is commonly believed to be a Hindu practice. The custom of widow-burning, however, existed in several cultures, including the Teutons, Wends (7), ancient Slavs and Scandinavians (12). The kings of UR, the ancient Chinese and some early Indo-European people buried or burnt a man’s widow, horses and other cherished possessions with his corpse in order that he might have all that he loved and needed in the other world (4).
    Calling everything under the sun Serbian — without proof — does not make it so. Your language cannot be the oldest as it has some of the least number words from PIE — less that even Baltic, and behind a lot of other IE languages.

    1. Who were Wends and ancient Slavs (this is oxymoron)? Who were Scandinavians (have a look the official title of Swedish and Danish kings for several hundreds of years until 1973). The reference (St. Boniface) says that Serbs (Wends) practiced sati and even you confirmed the same. What is the problem?
      Italians still call Serbs – Veneti (usually one of the main streets in their cities is Via Veneto). Venetia (Venezzia actually means Serbia). All Serbian medieval kings had the names URos Stefan I, II, etc. Hungarians took this UR from Serbs with a meaning ‘Sir’.

      1. @ Milan Todorovic
        Do you know any history? You don’t even know that Ur was a Sumerian city state; stop posting claptrap — a standard-fare of yours. Is being Serb so bad that you now have to claim Mesopotamia too?

        Furthermore, Slavics descended from Baltics — long after other IE cultures were formed. I know you won’t get the order. Cultures that are older than yours practised it; you even lived side by side with Iranians. A tribe of Slavics developed this culture indigenously — or picked it up somewhere, e.g., Teutons, Iranians, or Chinese — long after Steppe migrants came to India. For your information: It is the Steppe theory and not Vinca/Anatolian theory that is mainstream.

  26. A new (2020) hypothesis on the relationship between Indo-Aryans and the BMAC people:

    A. Lubotsky, “What Language Was Spoken by the People of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex?”, in Paul W. Kroll, Jonathan A. Silk (eds.), _“At the Shores of the Sky”: Asian Studies for Albert Hoffstädt_, Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2020, pp. 5-11.

    Quoting from p. 11:

    “It seems attractive to assume that the southward movement of Indo-Aryans was simultaneous with the decline of the BMAC and was even triggered by it, since the profound changes in the economy of the BMAC would have forced the Indo-Aryan pastoralists to look for new markets. In the situation of an economic and political crisis, it is only to be expected that in their movement, the Indo-Aryans were joined by a sizable group of the BMAC people, who would bring their culture and the agricultural lifestyle with them. […] As we know from major people movements of the past, they often were multiethnic, and a joint movement of Indo-Aryans and the BMAC people would not be surprising at all. It would be nice to hear from the geneticists whether this scenario is in line with the genetic evidence. In view of the many samples from the necropolis in Gonur, we will undoubtedly hear more about this issue in the future. Up till now, the linguistic scenarios have time and again found support in the analyses of ancient DNA. Will this also here be the case?”

    1. OIT will be disappointed because it obviously presents that Aryans existed. It is unclear why is more often used the term ‘Indo-Iranian’ as an alternative to ‘Aryan’.

      And everything started from Proto-Indo-Iranian (about 2000BC…what’s happened with Indo-European?). It means (Proto)Aryans language(s) > Aryan (Indian wing) > Sanskrit > Middle Indic (Pali) > (Hindi, Bengali, Marathi, Sinhala, Panjabi, etc.)

      To my knowledge, pretty accurate, I guess, grazie Francesco.

      1. PS. I mentioned that is unclear why the diagram started in 2000BC with a ‘Proto-Indo-Iranian’ language. This ‘Proto’ is always clumsy and often a way to avoid using the right term. For e.g. we all speak Proto-Martian because one day some humans will leave on Mars. I wonder which is this PII language which connects Indo and Iranian branches of the Aryan language and which, at that time already had its alphabet for a couple thousands of years?

    2. @Francesco Brighenti
      I am sorry that I am forced to comment by @Milan Todorovic. Anything is possible, but Lubotsky’s scenario is unlikely as India does not have BMAC ancestry. Indo-Aryans (IA) — according to Narasimhan et al. — bypassed BMAC is a genetic fact. They made a journey of 2500-3000 kms from Eurasian Steppe in ~1700 BC through Inner Asian Moutain Corridor — exited it in ~1700 BC — to India, then doubled back to Turan after mixing in India, all happening in ~1700 BC.
      Also, in Turan, IA then magically converted themselves to Steppe Late Bronze Age ancestry (SLBA) — an ancestry formed by mixing with East Asians. How many do you suppose they were in the first place? You know, India had a bigger population than Europe at that time.
      Moreover, we see SLBA ancestry in Turan after 1500 BC; it must be Iranians as they lived in Turan later on — not Aryans — historically. Only time will tell though.
      From what you posted, Lubotsky forgot about Iranians; they have to arrive at some point of time, you know; this makes this scenario practically impossible.

      @Milan Todorovic
      Stop posting misinformation — there is enough as it is in the world. The accepted theory is Steppe Theory. Last I checked Vinca is not on Steppe — that too long way off from it. Vinca also has Anatolian ancestry. This makes it impossible for them to have anything to do with Aryans. I earlier thought you genuinely did not know this, but now, I see you won’t even recognise that you are wrong. I must say: I am appalled at the perpetuation of lies by you. Please continue on saying: Slavic — that has less number of PIE words than even Baltic — is PIE.

      1. Fwiw I do think that Balkans farmers had an impact on mlba people even though the victorious party in this interaction and conflict were the eba ancestors of the later mlba indo europeans so the majority of the culture still comes from eba indo europeans.

        1. @DaThang
          Yes, there was female mediated Anatolian ancestry in Yamnaya, but it appeared after the culture was formed (source is unclear). Also, Vincans — primarily having Anatolian descent — have the following Ydna haplogroups:
          G2a2a1, G2a2a1a, G2a2a1a2a, G2a2a1a, G2a2b2a1a, H2

          In that sense, Vinca/Anatolian theory is genetically not possible.

  27. This day, 102 years ago the Thessaloniki front in the WW1 was broken. The First and the Second Serbian armies were the bearers of the breakthrough, which turned out to be decisive for the collapse of the Central Powers in the First World War – a month and a half later, Austro-Hungary, and soon Germany, capitulated. Serbian forces cut off the Bulgarian army and forced Bulgaria to lay down its arms on September 30, 1918. During the liberation of the homeland, the Serbs acted so quickly that the French command begged the Serbian Supreme Command to slow down the progress.

    In the WW1 Serbia lost 1/3 of its total population or 55% of male population plus 9% of crippled.

  28. Have an argument with my sister( ultra left) and me ( centre right) about what is right to say after my cousin said to my sister when she was lifting weights jokingly was” are you doing ego-lifting” and she flipped and conversation was kind of outraging and triggering when i said about Freedom of Speech and she said freedom of speech is” freedom to speak but don’t speak what is offensive to people”
    She is kind of against my father and me ( could be justified) and particularly when i told her that i voted for Modi.
    Is somebody the same situation as me?
    How can we solve these kind of Family problems?

    1. @Harshvardhan
      Solution is: Experience and Knowledge. Right and left opinions are both right and wrong in a way.

      If you’re not a communist at the age of 20, you haven’t got a heart.
      If you’re still a communist at the age of 30, you haven’t got a brain.

      The above quote is not fully applicable to Indian situation. Anyways, my advice is:

      1. You should try the path of education and dialogue.
      2. Encourage her to be friends with people who share your opinion.
      3. Celebrities have a lot of influence; she maybe following her role model. Try to change that.

      1. Yeah I think May cause i am unemployed i have more time to read and listen podcasts discussing issues of FOE.
        I was asking do these kind of situation emerges in other families as well. These situation can cause family tensions.
        She have said that Quran is a wonderful text( it could be) and Mahabharat is fake you know exactly the online and offline circles are. Everything is racist and sexist and transphobic without even thinking what the person is saying. The intention and context matters i think.

        1. She have said that Quran is a wonderful text( it could be)

          she’s lying tho. koran optimized for recitation. not narrative (look at the ordering of the text). it’s like the hebrew bible. parts of it are good narratives. but the priestly parts are boring a.f., but those sections are there for religious ritual instruction and law. not to be interesting

      2. What you are describing is not normal. She seems to hate you all for some reason. It could be the result of peer group influence too; it can make a person very weird. I hope everything works out for your family.

          1. Yeah but not in the same sentence and not at the same time.
            She said it’s wonderfully written. I guess that’s influence of her friends and she probably haven’t read it.
            I haven’t as well( i tried to ) but i have been in Zakir Naik vs ex-muslims game long enough to know something about it.
            She’s is probably very anti-Modi cause of her comments or jokes of when i got a nail injury that ” that’s happens when you vote for modi” but i don’t give a damn.

            Question is : Do people in the age of social media even living in the same family can have so drastic different views on Religion,India etc that can cause familial tensions?

        1. Her trajactory is different cause of South Delhi influence( Delhi university) and mine is different cause i studied in engg college.

          Anyway thanks for your suggestion.

  29. Oracle’s Ticktok deal is looking like Indulgences being sold to ByteDance by the US Government-Corporate mafiosi. It will do nothing to address underlying problems.

  30. Has anyone else noticed Indian TV news getting more and more anti-modi these past few days?

    1. I don’t know how much of the brown pundits readers watch Indian mainstream TV news.
      Are you saying that news like Aaj Tak, India TV, TimesNow, ZeeNews has shifted from Nationalist POV to anti Modi News( likes of NDTV).
      Cause I don’t know but my family always watched NDTV ( because of my father) until most of us stopped watching news altogether ( excluding my father) .

  31. Ask her:
    * How does she feel about taking instructions from an authoritative male (say you or your dad) on how to live her life? Every aspect of it!
    * What would she do if he threatens to punish her if she does not obey?
    * What would she do if he requires her to praise him for everything she has got?
    If she says, she would resent it/not stand for it/fight it/leave/curse yadda yadda .., tell her that’s exactly what the book she thinks is awesome does! The difference is, the authority is the Male God instead of you or your dad.
    If she says she is ok with that, hold her to it and start bossing her around 🙂 It would be nice to get a Leftie to make you breakfast and tea.

    1. She is kind of Rebellious in nature as i was at some point. The upbringing has lot of do with it.( I dont think i will talk about that).
      My Father is like any normal indian father just physical sometimes with both of us until say 2-3 years.
      I would tell her just read the goddamn book.
      My cousin read the quran cause he was genuinely curious and after reading he got scared of it.
      Now he is calm and understand why certain people behave the way they do.
      She in some case has proper lefty behaviour but i don’t mind that. Her definition of FOS is seriously one would not like. You can speak whattever unless you don’t offend someone. ( There is some good points(like rape threats, harrassment, transphobia etc shouldn’t be allowed) that she points out .

      1. A muslim acquaintance of mine (from a liberal background) read the Koran only when he grew up and said he went into depression after reading it (of course he exaggerated, but still) . He turned sort of semi-agnostic after that.

  32. “Are you saying that news like Aaj Tak, India TV, TimesNow, ZeeNews has shifted from Nationalist POV to anti Modi News”

    I cant say about the others but India TV and News 24 seem to have. My father was watching News 24 yesterday night and the show felt very different than the non-NDTV news channels usually do. They were directly blaming modi for the high onion prices, saying that he had failed (even playing a clip of him talking about the “top” abbreviation lol) , and some other thing that I cant remember. They seemed to be much more confrontational than ndtv. Today we were watching India TV and they were criticizing yogi govt.s name changing of museum saying that it was just to divert attention (they said it in a more menacing and flowery way, saying that people on top had set the agenda or something, cant remember the exact words). I think that they would’ve celebrated this move if everything was alright

    1. Probably just to gain publicity i guess.
      There still a generation who predominantly watches mainstream TV and news.
      Only things i watch on Tv is sports and NatGeo,Discovery etc and sometimes Movies.

  33. @Violent

    I don’t think you have seen enough South Indian phenotypes to comment that desis can’t pass as black.

    I have, that’s precisely why I say that you generally can’t. The reason why blacks may mistake you is because they themselves may not pay close attention to Indians, even if living around them. There are also *lots* of Ethiopians where I live, so I am even more familliar with their phenotype. I can easily pick out the desis.

    Perhaps I am an outlier, though. I can tell the difference between most slavs and germanics from a crowd. I am rarely wrong, and I amuse myself asking random (white) strangers if they are Eastern European and I am almost always correct when I ask. The shocked reactions are pretty funny.

    Still, I don’t think of myself as particularly adept at this. It’s just a question of paying attention and having enough exposure. One without the other is insufficient. Blacks may be around Indians where you live, but do they pay attention?

    The only outlier would possibly be a small fraction South Indians with a very high aboriginal DNA percentage share and very dark skin, which would make them look a bit more like some blacks. But even then, there are other give-aways (nose, the way you talk, movement etc).

    1. I have seen people so dark and relatively lighter ( not pale) sharing a conversation or playing games or doing normal things. That’s india.
      Certain biharis from Purvanchal have Munda like features and are also very Dark some are so dark their skin is Purple undertone.
      I think sometimes about the depiction of Lord Krishna. Could he be the one with Aboriginal or AASI genetics. Original Non vedic still Indic god.

    2. “I can tell the difference between most slavs and germanics from a crowd”

      There is an overlap in appearances though, Alexei Navalny wouldn’t look out of place walking around in Berlin.

      1. People from the same nationality have different face expressions if they grew up in different countries. Probably, Indians (and other) who were born and grew up in US looks different from those in India. Likewise, people from different backgrounds have similar face expressions if they grew up in the same country. That is the case with germans and slavs considering that the majority of germans are of Slavic origin (e.g. East Germany).

        For example, people who have open mouth with visible upper teeth when they do not speak, or laugh are recognized as Anglo while the most people in Balkan have mouth closed with exceptions. One of them are so-called Bosniacs, but this is connected with iq, which is a different kind of keeping mouth open.

      2. Nah navalny has an eastern euro appearance as well. There any several different east Euro appearances. He is kind of baltid.

        1. @DaThang
          I read on Anthrogenica that Iran_N shares alleles with AASI. Is it true? I thought they were separate ancestries. Am I wrong? You know a lot, so I wanted to confirm from you.

          1. Might be some actual exchange going on there or it could be one of those illusions. Would be good if there were older Iran samples available to test for affinity comparisons to aasi.

  34. PLA is under tremendous pressure to escalate. They miscalculated and now Indian Army has the upper hand in the Spanggur gap. They can fill the Chushul sector with thousands of troops but they have tactical disadvantages.

    Rajnath Singh informed Parliament that China is in illegal possession of Aksai Chin. Thats the most definitive political statement possible in the highest political forum of India.

    Everything points to a inflexion. Perhaps 2020 will be the riposte to 1962.

    1. As i have said, once u get down to those mountains, it becomes more of a tug of war b/w various smaller units and Chinese infra advancements from the Tibet plateau from where they can rapidly mobilize becomes less and less advantageous. During the Kargil crisis India still lost pound for pound more soldiers then they would have otherwise. Especially if once side has to dug in and just defend.

      But yeah lets hold on to the riposte and all. For all we know India wouldn’t be recapturing Aksai China or Chinese controlled territories

      1. The Chinese supply line is a little over 1500 km long. Winter and 15k altitude means this is Stalingrad’s grandmom.

        The Chinese are in Tibet only because Indians behave like Gandhi’s monkeys. For a change, we need to start behaving like Pakis on the eastern front.

        When librandus accuse Modi of trying to make India a Hindu Pakistan, I hope they are right for a change. As one BP commentator put it, it’s not caste that makes the modern Indian, but Ahimsa.

      2. If India has to win, it needs to build bunkers asap. Do what the Afghanis did to the US: Build bunkers at breakneck speed, and hold on to it. This will neutralize all — so called — technological advantages of Chinese.

  35. “She have said that Quran is a wonderful text( it could be) and Mahabharat is fake”

    You generally need to act very neutral and sympathize a bit with such people.

    Mahabharat is fake? Sure, cool. It could be an exaggerated version of events that transpired in some kingdom or some complete work of fiction. That doesn’t change the influence it had-


    People like Schrödinger didn’t sit around and think “Mahabharat is fake, therefore Krishna and Arjuna are fake too”, they found it interesting and so they read it.

    Just agree with her about it being fake and give her the (unsatisfactory) victory.

    And as for the Quran- ask if she has actually read it (she’s most likely gonna say no) and if it’s her opinion.

    “Wonderful” is subjective. Ask her to form her own opinion instead of regurgitating.

    Most of the “atheist” and “freethinker” peeps in India are just aping whatever they see in pop western culture and are trying to be all hip and cool. If some foreigner were to walk up to them and compliment Hinduism, most of them would happily take the compliment.

    I used to be a full-fledged atheist/agnostic (not even a Hindu atheist/agnostic) until a year or two ago. I mainly started reading about religion, history and genetics (that’s how I found this blog) because I noticed some disturbing trends among the Muslims around me.

    Although people like me are ready to sit down, spend some time, look things up and read the facts, your sister may not be the same. She may need a small push or someone to direct her and you’ll probably have to guide her. Her opinions most likely aren’t actually her own.

    Sit down and have a chat the next time things heat up. Instead of showing her the facts from your side, first spend some time asking her about her own statements/opinions and how she arrived at these conclusions.

  36. Ram Guha writes:

    In the cabinet system of governance, the Prime Minister is supposed to be first among equals. While they work under the overall direction of the Prime Minister, ministers have direct responsibility for matters that come under their designated domain. That is the theory. In practice, all through Narendra Modi’s first term as Prime Minister, no cabinet minister enjoyed any sort of autonomy at all. Even the Finance Minister, a long-time Modi confidant, was kept in the dark about major economic policies decided upon uniltaterally by the Prime Minister. The Foreign Minister, an experienced and very intelligent politician, found her duties restricted to tweeting support to Indians in distress.

    In Modi’s second term as Prime Minister, the Home Minister enjoys a partial autonomy, but no one else. Otherwise all important policies are framed and directed from the Prime Minister’s Office. If anything goes right, the Prime Minister must take the credit. However, if something goes wrong, then other people must take the blame (such as state governments run by opposition parties, the ghost of Jawaharlal Nehru, liberals, Urban Naxals, and, most recently, God himself).

    1. A truly frivolous post from the otherwise thoughtful Gaurav Lele.
      The new dad gets a free pass on this one!

  37. (Google translated) “The case of Alexei Navalny was used by Americans to block the progress of the Russian vaccine “Sputnik V”. It is no coincidence that this vaccine was called “Sputnik”. Like the legendary Sputnik, the vaccine shattered the image of the world that Western capable people had so carefully designed. It threatens to annul the monetary profit of Bill Gates, sages from the WHO and similar vaccine masters, who have already parted their lips because of the fairytale earnings on the last chord of covid-hysteria. It is hundreds of billions of dollars, about the ID-2020 world identification system. It is this “digital concentration camp”, the eternally envious captivity of billions of the world’s inhabitants. And it all goes in the trash because the damn Russians made their cunning vaccine.

    The plane with Alexei Navalny not yet reached Berlin, and the United States has already imposed a ban on the institute that produces the vaccine, a ban on the vaccine and a ban on all those who trade, buy or receive the vaccine under the threat of excommunication from the dollar, exclusion from SWIFT, Twitter and from all over the American world. No illusions – if the choice is between a pandemic and America’s hostility, most countries and companies will forget about the unfortunate old women and the fierce selfishness of the people without masks for what they have been accused for the last six months.”

    1. PS.The Russian center “Gamalej” considers the decision to suspend the testing of the Oxford vaccine against the corona virus of the company “Astra Zeneka” to be correct, because the complications in the volunteer were very serious, said the leading expert of the institute, Fyodor Lisitsyn.

      “Although from the point of view of science, it is promising to use the adenoviral vector of both chimpanzees and others in the long run, at this moment everything is insufficiently studied. Therefore, it is correct that they stopped the tests, the complication is serious”. He emphasized that one volunteer on whom the vaccine was tested had very serious complications – a problem with muscle atrophy, myopathy that occurred at the injection site.

      “This greatly upset all the researchers who worked on the vaccine.”

      The vaccine of the British-Swedish company “Astra Zeneka”, which they are developing together with the scientists from Oxford, passed to the third phase of testing in August. The company is developing a vaccine based on monkey adenoviral vectors. Earlier, the media reported that the clinical trials of the vaccine of the company “Astra Zeneka” were suspended due to a possible side effect that occurred in one of the participants in the testing in Great Britain.

  38. Any point of views from all the Pundits on this ‘Trusted Tech Partner’ deal between Ticktock and Oracle?
    As I am reading whatever little information is there, it appears that it is a lot of froth and marketing around the simple arrangement…’Oracle becoming their Cloud based data-store’! Nothing much more.
    There is no country specific segregation of TickTok, no oversight of code, no requirement to sell any of their IP, no restriction on what they can do with their data..
    I also wonder if the ‘trusted tech partner’ will even be able to know about any data diversion let alone prevent it.

    Looks like a total con pulled on the American People.

  39. Is there any evidence that Chaturanga (the ancestor of chess) is a Chinese game? Saw some Chinese nationalists claiming there is Chinese influence and the Indian influence is Sino-Tibetan. The alternative hypothesis is that it is NW Indian/N Indian/Indo-Aryan game that reflects that ethos and developed with western (Babylonian and Greek apparently) influence in South Central Asia. That makes more sense.

  40. I am in this western dharma group on Facebook, there was a discussion about Kashmir Shaivism.

    Apparently it’s very hard to find living lineage holders / teachers (only some spurious ones or self taught).

    Swami Lakshmanjoo, the last prominent practitioner and translator of many texts didn’t leave any heirs. Someone mentioned in India Lakshmanjoo’s following has devolved to Bhajan singing, basically. The full range of teachings is not practiced.

    I don’t know how true this is, maybe they are out there just not super accessible by westerners.
    Anyone know?

  41. Indian Lefties. Will not even spare the man on his birthday.. and will still claim that their freedom of expression is being stifled.


    Many must be ROFLOL reading it and also patting the back of the writer for being funny.

    Pretty rich specially from the chairman of Prasar Bharati (commonly derided as His Master’s Voice during Indira days for being a pliant govt puppet)

    1. Was gonna be banned eventually so here goes:

      I see two main strands in your argument

      1. You’re muslim, so automatically low caste (worthless)
      2. You have white children, so automatically white supremacist

      Those Hindu elites have spent centuries being oppressed along with everyone else
      When Aurangzeb said he collected threads of Brahmins, it wasn’t no Dalits whose janeu was being taken off

      The reality is Dharma rises together, Abrahamics are the slaves of all 4 Varna & Khalsa will ensure your destruction||



    2. @Razib Khan
      I only agree partly with your article. There are fallacies that need to be addressed to make it compelling:
      1. Caste formation started approx. 1500 years. However, the position of Brahmins in various societies was different: a lot of them patronised Buddhism, Jainism, etc.
      2. Historically, Brahmins lived on alms. So, what did they get by their elite privilege? This remained true for the most part. The truth is that Kshatriyas ruled the roost, and priests did not interfere with the material side of the society much (mostly true).
      3. At least in North India, Brahmins were oppressed during Islamic times – that too badly.
      4. Buddhists, Jains, and Hindus – including Brahmins – at various times frequently switched their culture, as there was no hard divide.
      5. Jaatis rose and fell together. There is no clear indication that continuous oppression of a particular group happened. What I mean is that details are lacking.

      I don’t want to belabour the point, but the history is not so simple that you present it to be.

      Now, the part I agree with:
      Selfish people can overtake a movement for their own benefits.

      1. 5. Jaatis rose and fell together. There is no clear indication that continuous oppression of a particular group happened. What I mean is that details are lacking.

        there is a strong correlation btwn “ANI” and caste status within regions. this is a fact. it’s very strange and i can’t explain it without a high degree of fixity of status (or perhaps ANI genes are “superior” i have no idea)

        i think most of your points are sophistic, though they have some basis in truth

        1. @Razib Khan
          While it is true that there is a correlation, there are plausible explanations for this phenomenon:
          1. Narasimhan’s paper only excludes groups from Turan; it does not however, exclude Iranians, Greeks as sources of ancestry. They also did not exclude Kangju — related to Kushans — as a source of ancestry. As all these invasions happened before Gupta period, finding elevated ANI ancestry in upper castes is nothing strange; everyone wants better positions for their children after all.
          2. ANI people were simply better organised and most probably captured elite positions as well as regions with more resources. To support this: Gangetic plains hold 40% of India’s population; unsurprisingly, ANI ancestry is one of the highest in this region. Simple outbreeding by ANI related people can explain various divergences that we observe. North India simply had the most resources to support a large populaiton.

      2. “2. Historically, Brahmins lived on alms. So, what did they get by their elite privilege? This remained true for the most part. The truth is that Kshatriyas ruled the roost, and priests did not interfere with the material side of the society much (mostly true).”

        agree 100%. in fact i have said it multiple times on this blog, that an average brahmin reader of this blog from india will be bemused by all the talk of “brahmin supremacy” and “brahmin privilege” and brahmin this and brahmin that. seriously, they didnt think they were that important in the scheme of things.

        in every part of india, (and in the large world itself), the hand that held the hilt of the sword always had the most privilege. nairs of kerala, rajus of andhra, thakurs of north india, marathas of maharshtra, these are the groups who really had the privilege if it comes to that.

        1. Scorpion Eater,
          I both agree and disagree with you – see the point Razib is making with your views – let me explain why;
          The problem with all this talk of privilege is that it focuses on ONLY 1 PRIVILEGE;
          I totally agree that being born in a Brahmin family leads to certain privileges; Where i disagree with all the leftist Brahmin privilege talk is it only focused on 1 Privilege.
          If you count privileges for an Indian it could be – WEALTH (not always correlated with caste but moderately so), EDUCATION of earlier generations (not only Brahmins but others like Kayasthas and Ksh/Vaishya castes), CONNECTIONS (related to politics – here brahmins arent necessary up there), URBAN (many brahmins/UC continue living in rural backgrounds). Especially in the politics of caste in the late 20th and early 21st century brahmins outside the gangetic belt held no sway over the politics. No one cares to canvass for brahmin votes in MH,KN,TN i guess (i may be wrong)

          Most Brahmins who had lands lost them in the Land reforms of 20th century though. They had privilege of education/ cutlure which respects education above all but no financial privileges. Thats why i dont like playing this privilege olympics above a certain level – its complicated.

          Eg: My paternal line relocated from their native village over quarrel with the local large landowner (Ksh/Maratha) 3 centuries ago – having relocated they almost lost all financial privileges and my father’s family has no wealth for any of the progeny. Having said that because of the literacy of my Great-Great Grandfather they took British education in the late 19th century and atleast the smarter kids went on to take clerical jobs – leading to my father’s generation where all kids could be educated beyond matriculation without much pain. But on the flip-side my descendants of my Great Grandfathers generation who did not do well academically (due to sheer bad luck or disease or accident) continue to struggle to this day to just educate their children. Calling these folks privileged sounds very MAD IMO.

        2. to add some more finer points to my comments, i guess diaspora desi folks with only tenuous connections to subcontinent can sometimes confuse cultural capital with privilege. since castes were original profession based guilds, each caste accumulates a lot of cultural capital belonging to their profession. it is fascinating to see how the manpower of different professions in modern india correspond to ancient varnas even after many millenia.

          for e.g., academia and science and technology institutes of india are disproportionately staffed by brahmins. india’s army and security forces are more or less dominated by kshatriya castes like rajputs, marathas, jats etc. top business houses belong to jains and baniyas. and most of the menial work and janitorial work in municipal corporations is still primarily a domain of dalits. so our varna division of society is still alive even though no modern profession selects its employees based on caste.

          is that due to privilege? i dont think so. it is simply cultural capital. brahmin kids do relatively better than other castes in academics because in their households studying for an extra hour everyday is looked upon favorably than playing cricket for an extra hour. in baniya households kids probably learn recognizing financial value of items and services better than other castes at an early age. also, since they observe their fathers and uncles and other extended relative working in their respective professions, they tend to know instinctively what will work and what not.

          i will give a personal anecdote. we recently held a virtual get-together of all our batchmates from college days. we all took stock of what each one of us is doing in life. it turned our that only 2 of the batchmates really made it big in personal business ventures and made seriously good money. turned out that both of them were jain/baniya. and they didnt even come from rich households! just being baniya caste was enough for them to succeed in business. they didnt have any previlege. what they had was cultural capital of business creation accumulated over many generation.

          1. you’re engaging in sophistry whether you want to or not. cultural capital IS privilege. what black Americans are hypothesized to lack is cultural capital due to slavery.

            i don’t really agree with the moral/normative valence of ‘privilege talk’. but what they’re really against is differential cultural apital

    3. i dont understand the point of your post in unherd. saira rao, the target of your derision from that post, may come from a privileged class from india, but how does that take away her right to speak out against racism in USA? after all she is not talking about *her* travails due to racism and white supremacy? i mean, how is she any different from the “white allies” we see in the BLM protest marches?

      do we need to be a certified victim of racism to speak out against racism?

      1. I both agree and disagree with you – see the point Razib is making with your views – let me explain why;
        But not all brahmins lived on alms & many were provided lands by Ksh rulers of the times. And history also has numerous Brahmin dynasties (one could point out the same of shudra varna but they arent as numerous as Brahmin ones i guess). So i would broadly agree than on average Brahmins are moderately more privileged than most other castes – though not everywhere.

        The problem with all this talk of privilege is that it focuses on ONLY 1 PRIVILEGE;
        I totally agree that being born in a Brahmin family leads to certain privileges; Where i disagree with all the leftist Brahmin privilege talk is it only focused on 1 Privilege.
        If you count privileges for an Indian it could be – WEALTH (not always correlated with caste but moderately so), EDUCATION of earlier generations (not only Brahmins but others like Kayasthas and Ksh/Vaishya castes), CONNECTIONS (related to politics – here brahmins arent necessary up there), URBAN (many brahmins/UC continue living in rural backgrounds). Especially in the politics of caste in the late 20th and early 21st century brahmins outside the gangetic belt held no sway over the politics. No one cares to canvass for brahmin votes in MH,KN,TN i guess (i may be wrong)

        Most Brahmins who had lands lost them in the Land reforms of 20th century though. They had privilege of education/ cutlure which respects education above all but no financial privileges.

        Eg: My paternal line relocated from their native village over quarrel with the local large landowner (Ksh/Maratha) 3 centuries ago – having relocated they almost lost all financial privileges and my father’s family has no wealth for any of the progeny. Having said that because of the literacy of my Great-Great Grandfather they took British education in the late 19th century and atleast the smarter kids went on to take clerical jobs – leading to my father’s generation where all kids could be educated beyond matriculation without much pain. But on the flip-side my descendants of my Great Grandfathers generation who did not do well academically (due to sheer bad luck or disease or accident) continue to struggle to this day to just educate their children. Calling these folks privileged sounds very MAD IMO.

        Thats why i dont like playing this privilege olympics above a certain level – its complicated.

        1. But not all brahmins lived on alms & many were provided lands by Ksh rulers of the times.

          Not to say you are wrong: Your statement itself implies Brahmins were subject to the whims and fancies of Kshatriya rulers. The said privileges were also contingent on whether the ruler wanted to patronise Jainsim, Buddhism, etc. Moreover, these benefits evaporated during Islamic rule — replaced by oppression. In that regard, history is more complex than the simple narrative: as expected.

        2. yes – i agree its not as simplistic at all

          To buttress my point: Chanakya — one of the most famous Brahmin of ancient India — died due to court intrigue after falling out of favour of the ruling king. The limit of Brahmins’ privilege is self evident: Purely as educators and priests, their power was extremely limited — dependent as they were on the benevolence of the ruling monarch.

      2. i write 1,000 words and you are still confused? perhaps i should write one sentec summaries for the likes of you. in any case, i’m pretty clear
        When “black and brown” is used as an incantation it is not surprising that many young Indians are attracted to the idea that they, too, are among the wretched of the earth.

        So you see young people of a bronze shade with names such as Iyer, Mukherjee and Tripathi, claiming for themselves the centuries of oppression and trauma of others, American history adopted and co-opted. They decry white supremacy which confirmed upon their ancestors’ their ancient ritual purity during the colonial period — for the forefathers of these Iyers, Mukherjees and Tripathis were the rural landowners of British India; they were the Indians who manned the colonial civil service.

        i don’t know if you are raised in the USA or not. i’m raised here. I ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED RACISM GROWING UP. did you?

        the point is a lot of ppl with lots of cultural capital mask or it. some of these woke upper-caste ppl from very upper-middle-class backgrounds attack poor racist whites for their privileges and supremacy. i think racism is bad. but being poor sucks, and I’ve seen a lot ao well off nonwhite ppl pretend like they are more put upon than poor marginal people who are white.

        anyway, you don’t get the piece, that’s fine. i don’ give a shit

        1. Razib- when u make the same point in Audio/Podcast i guess it comes across more clearly than in prose imo – wrt the same point which i remember u making some times in podcasts.

          1. it’s more clear if you are american too.

            though i’m kind of over the ‘well ackhually brahmins weren’t that privileged’ bullshit. some morons are twitter are saying “there are poor brahmins, so brahmins are not privileged!”

          2. UC r very touchy abt these matters in general not just Brahmins.
            maybe ppl with materialist/nerd understanding of world cant grasp at cultural/educational privilege which is multi-generational ? only privileges they can appreciate are economical. These arguments also go into the Indian Reservation debate – where many UC tend to totally miss the point of reservations in India

    1. yup. Sometimes I want to retire from my Whisperer job. But I often see the om symbol projected in the sky and I am obliged to leave the comforts of my material life to engage with the joker(s) once again

      1. @thewarlock great analogy Dr. Saab. I was glued to the TV as a child whenever Batman was on. Though I wouldn’t paint all of us as the nemesis, there are a couple uncouth bad apples, but most of us are very fine people indeed.

    2. @Razib, I trust this derision for the Jatt doesn’t extend to all of us who share this dubious honor? I have always tried to present a fair perspective, grounded in my own experiences as one of the members of this infamous community. In any case, you know my true nature, I have not a single racist bone in my body.

      1. i’m talking about the people i’ve had to ban.

        your community has a serious racism problem. though honestly i don’t care too much, racism says more about a person who is racist than the people who they are racist against.

        btw, i know for a fact that jatts ‘punched well above their weight’ in regads to racist trolls on the old sepia mutiny blog too.

        as i said, my personal experience with jatts on the whole (not all!) is that there is a level of pridefulness and self-centeredness that seems unbecoming. lots of the ppl i’m talking about are young men naive about the world, and i don’t really take it personally and try to open their horizons. but some of these people obv. go down another path that’s pretty nasty.

        if we admit that jatts are white can you have you guys move beyond this? idk what to do at this point it’s so predictable and cringe. next thing you know these ‘[email protected]’ will be bragging about their pink piglet penises or something weird

        1. @Razib

          Haha! I love the last line, and I fear your predictions might have real consequences. Just the other day I saw a post by some NWner bragging about how his nether regions were lighter than most South Asians. I kid you not. I think the rather uncouth and juvenile nature of these observations tells you more about their low-IQ mind more than anything else, as you pointed out.

          I agree the absurdity of some of these trolls is too much to bear. I don’t think such people can be helped TBH, because when someone is so ensconced in their own little cocoon of existence that values the Jatt identity over everything else, you can’t really help them see the light. I would freely ban people that engage in such nonsensical commentary, and I am ashamed to see that these people are so incorrigible. Please chalk it up to the validity of the Jatt bumpkin stereotype. It doesn’t come from a toxic or evil place, but a rather naive and immature one.

          Anyone who thinks Jatts are objectively superior in any sense should just kill themselves and do the world a favor in the process. I mean that 100% Appreciating and respecting diversity is one thing, but promoting ideas of racial and ethnic superiority is a completely different animal. Its essentially a projection of massive insecurity in its most insidious form. When someone is most proud of what amounts to nothing more than pure chance, AKA the race they were born into, it shows just how unaccomplished and insecure they are. Such people don’t deserve any sympathy.

          1. Please chalk it up to the validity of the Jatt bumpkin stereotype. It doesn’t come from a toxic or evil place, but a rather naive and immature one.

            this is pretty much my take from the 20-year-old college students i met at davis. basically they are, ironically or not, like a lot of rural white americans in not being aware of the world beyond their circles. i assume most of these guys will grow up because they’re going to college and probably move to sf or la, and not go back to yuba city.

  42. @DaThang

    No I am talking about impact on mlba like Sintashta.

    Sorry, I am not aware of the impact Anatolia had on Sintashta. Aren’t they too far away from each other? Are you talking about CWC? It does not have R1a-Z93. Do you know how Yamnaya went to Sintashta? Any info. is welcome.

    1. Steppe EBA/eneolithic mixed with Balkans farmers to result in steppe mlba populations like Sintashta. That is the interaction. R1a came from steppe EBA but I think that the 20% to 33% EEF in mlba would have had some influence culturally. They (corded ware) took to farming eventually after all.

  43. Indian Americans are privileged in the same way that Nigerian Americans are privileged. They are descended from highly educated groups within their countries.

    No one cares if they are brahmin or igbo or whatever. They are brown and black people.

    Re: Brahmin and steppe overrepresentation

    Norman surnames are overrepresented among wealthy people in the UK to this day.


    Brahmins in Central, South and East India in particular are descended from migrants from areas to the north west so they can be expected to have higher steppe relative to others in the region.

    This stuff is complex. I don’t have any concrete answers.

    Just saying it’s complicated.

  44. UC r very touchy abt these matters in general not just Brahmins.
    maybe ppl with materialist/nerd understanding of world cant grasp at cultural/educational privilege which is multi-generational ? only privileges they can appreciate are economical. These arguments also go into the Indian Reservation debate – where many UC tend to totally miss the point of reservations in India

    i’m not indian so not my business. but i’m skeptical of reservations. i also oppose the racist talk about brahmins which reminds me of antisemitism.

    but none of this is to deny brahmin social and cultural capital, along with other groups in other domains, is deep and long-standing. this seems clear from any analysis of historiography. these brahmin communities are almost always very endogamous, enriched for r1a and more ‘steppe’ than other local groups.

    the reality is my ancestors did not clean other peoples’ shit. and, my ancestors in the 19th century owned lands and prominent social-professional roles. this isn’t a huge source of pride for me, unlike our old moron kabir, it’s pretty typical for a lot of ppl who comment on this weblog and are in America. also not relevant to me today in my life’s various struggles as a normal middle-class american. but, it’s ridiculous for me to present like my ancestors were oppressed coolies. we had tenant farmers under the British, my paternal lineage were respected ulems who build the local mosque, and some of my ancestors were brahmins who ran a lucrative milk production business. this has huge long-term consequences in social capital AND confidence, and i’m not going to pretend like my dark-skinned ass is anything like a black American (though if i shave my head i could ‘pass’).

    my father did go through struggles and poverty when he was young because his father wanted him to spend more time being an overseer on their family’s jute plantation. my father refused, and to pay for his further schooling he was a tutor for a wealthy family. eventually he won a scholarship and got a PhD and the rest is history. but is it irrelevant that he comes from a lineage where learning is taken for granted? that all his siblings were required to memorize the koran by their father by the time they were 11? et.c etc.

    1. “i’m not indian so not my business. but i’m skeptical of reservations. i also oppose the racist talk about brahmins which reminds me of antisemitism.”
      Yes – as theyre run there r lot of problems with reservations – but i find the UC critique of reservations coming from a historical amnesia (or wishful thinking) unlike someone would oppose it on its low efficiency.
      IMO Reservations r an Easy Quick fix and Inefficient solution to a complex sociological problem. The system as it is today is almost always abused by upper cream of reserved class and the intention is rarely served. It also creates problems in some core fields like medicine – where if u r UC its almost impossible to get into a good college – as number of seats in medicine are highly constrained due to finances. (UNLIKE engineering or management). As a result lot of wannabe doctors have to go to BAMS (ayurvedic) BHMs (homeopathy LOL).

      “the reality is my ancestors did not clean other peoples’ shit. ———————-
      taken for granted? that all his siblings were required to memorize the koran by their father by the time they were 11? et.c etc.”
      exactly personally my family has seen a fair share of economical downturn – but they always had the confidence and clarity of spending a leg and foot for children’s education. This isnt the case for many Dalits in the country – education & cultural privilege of ancestors does translate. I see same stories of financial struggles in most UC families at some pts. But even back inthe day there was difference between not being able to afford education& partial starvation (as case for many depresses castes)

    2. \i’m not indian so not my business. but i’m skeptical of reservations. i also oppose the racist talk about brahmins which reminds me of antisemitism.\
      Ditto, with one change. I think reservations were needed esp at Primary school and Bachelor level of university , I would like liked it to be timebound, limited , perhaps 10% of seats, and keep rotating the criteria, not just the so-called ‘dalits’ , also economically very poor or very rural, etc. However reservations as done in India have lost any social progress marginal utility for a long time. Now Reservations in schools, colleges, jobs, promotion for jobs , etc is considered as a be all and end all , and has led to caste based politics and scapegoating brahmins in part of that politics. I know stinking rich people getting reservations for 3 or 4 generations on the basis of caste. That is very very unjust and ultimately counter productive. That has kept India in the lower rungs of industrial powers so far

    3. @Razib Khan
      I agree — in so far — people who go from less developed countries to the US have some varying amount of privileges.

      Regarding Steppe admixture:
      1. In UP, Steppe percentage is approximately equal for Brahmins and Kshatriya.
      2. Kashmiri Pandits have elevated Steppe due to Kushan admixture.
      3. Jatts, Rors, Gujjars all have high — in some cases higher than Brahmins — Steppe ancestry.
      4. Brahmins don’t have a single line of descent denoting multiple admixture events.
      5. Brahmins are 5% of India’s Population.

      Furthermore, Brahmins comprise 10% of UP’s population and Gangetic Plains has 40-45% of India’s populations. Simple migration from Gangetic plains — well supported by history at different times — can explain the Steppe anomaly that we observe.

      1. Some other populations that have higher or equal Steppe ancestry than UP Brahmins:
        * Meena — who are Dalits that live in Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh — have slightly higher Steppe ancestry than UP Brahmins.
        * Kurmis — who are Dalits that live in Gangetic Plains — have equal Steppe ancestry to UP Brahmins
        * Khatris have higher Steppe Ancestry

        In light of these populations, Steppe ancestry does not appear to be a very good marker of caste.

        * The Genetic Ancestry of Modern Indus Valley Populations from Northwest India

  45. “the reality is my ancestors did not clean other peoples’ shit

    once years back a christian friend (from madiga background) told that they were forced to clean toilets for centuries. after 5 minutes i had to reply that centuries ago there were no toilets in india!!!
    everyone was going to the fields.

  46. A very important paper for AMT: “Ancient DNA shows domestic horses were introduced in the southern Caucasus and Anatolia during the Bronze Age” (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/38/eabb0030)

    Our paleogenetic study of pre- and protohistoric horses in Anatolia and the Caucasus, based on a diachronic sample from the early Neolithic to the Iron Age (~8000 to ~1000 BCE) that encompasses the presumed transition from wild to domestic horses (4000 to 3000 BCE), shows the rapid and large-scale introduction of domestic horses at the end of the third millennium BCE. Thus, our results argue strongly against autochthonous independent domestication of horses in Anatolia.

    Implication: Confirms what was obvious that Hittites did not possess horses. They were just a hoax cooked up by western charlatans to exclude India as PIE . Good luck to AMT aka fringe theory! Justice to Harappans at last! Talageri has been vindicated.

  47. https://thepoliticalfix.substack.com/p/will-the-economic-crash-end-the-indian

    Basically confirms what many of us were thinking, namely that Modi’s deep groundswell of support is completely severed from economics. It’s ideological.

    BJP’s primary innovation is linking the subaltern with the upper-caste (which were leaning BJP for many decades). The collapse of the regional parties in places like UP is the biggest undersold story in the Western press IMO, more so than the travails of the Congress.

    1. I am not sure which Indian election was won on lost on economy. Y do folks (in the article for example) think like that, do their own states they come from themselves vote on the “economy” ? So Modi appeal is ideological while Dravidians like the author have been voting for laissez faire in Tamaizh Nadu .

      Every one wants their son to Bhagat Singh, just their neighbor’s son

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