Please keep the other posts on topic. Use this for talking about whatever you want to talk about.
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INDTHINGS
4 years ago
Hindus caught on infamous video lynching Muslims acquitted by Rajasthan court, in a shock to the community and rights organizations. But they’re all just a bunch of Marxists and Islamists, so who cares. Jai Hind!
Ah yes.. the sins of some Hindus are the sins of all Hindus. Does some as yet undiscovered law of sociology prevent libs from applying this pattern to Islam? Or African-Americans?
Why call them Right or left? They are criminals who do such things, i.e. go around in groups and kill innocent people. Sadly, the justice administration in India is very creaky. There are perhaps 3.93 million pending cases in India according to this author, some of them pending for years
We need more numbers. By aggregating all reported crime, there may be no point in blaming left or right, but if people who are carrying dead cows (which is an important social function) are indeed being targeted and murdered, that deserves to be called out separately. And treated as a semi-political act.
Yes I would like attacking anyone physically or verbally due to religious or racial motivations/reason to be treated separately , as ‘semi-political’ act ?? . Such cases to be fast tracked.
Vast number of pending cases in courts does impact the morale of the police forces. Police does take the cases and their investigation seriously when they are confident their labours will result in some trial and/or conviction , or at the least fair process would be followed.
This is always the fig leaf “When I said Jai Hind sardonically, the Hind had an asterisk that only referred to Hindutva wadis”
If I took everyone who tried such linguistic contortions, wired them up to a lie detector and asked them what they think of Hindus, I could make money ALL DAY betting on the outcome. Or not, because no one would bet against me
Muslims are criticized far more than Jews or Hindus in the modern period. The bulk of this criticism comes from liberals (whether at the governmental level, human rights organizations, or media).
Its a sign of a cultist mentality when you believe the criticisms of your group are the product of conspiracy.
I said specifically Hindus in an infamous lynching video were acquitted. This in no way implies all Hindus, unless you believe all Hindus were in this video lynching Muslims.
Another sign of a cultist (Hindu-right) mentality. Reading insult and outrage into everything.
The sins of some Hindus are not the sins of all Hindus just as the sins of some Muslims are not the sins of all Muslims. Yet we see plenty of quite hateful rhetoric towards Muslims on this site. So this standard should be applied to all.
For what it is worth, some of INDTHING’s comments about “Hindus” make me uncomfortable as well. I would prefer that a differentiation is made between Hindutvadis and Hindus just as a distinction should be made between Islamists and normal Muslims.
Courts must acquit if there is reasonable doubt. How can the accused by convicted in these circumstance?
Marxists and post modernist thought have infiltrated all over the world. These irrational thought pattern memoplexes are one of the largest drivers of lower global total factor productivity and lower global material living standards.
People who kidnap and murder cows (who are treated like family members by their families) are almost never attacked in India—despite 4 million cows being stolen from their families and killed every year. 16 cases a year in a country of 1.4 billion is statistically insignificant.
Syndrome
4 years ago
I am new to this site. Please let me know the rules of this site.
And also let me know how do you stop impersonators from catfishing in this site.
…and, if you are unclear what to do, just follow the simple rule in the 1st comment under: Taking sides when good and evil are unclear. Welcome aboard, cheers.
This is a fun blog. It took me some time to warm up to it, but now I am fully submerged.
Who would have thought that a blog run by US/UK based non-indians, that too from the “traitorous” pak-bangla heritage, will become a haunt for Hindu nationalists and no-holds-barred Islam bashers. But strange are the ways of the world.
Syndrome
4 years ago
Is the belief that muslims are descendants of foreigners the main reason why some indians hate muslims? Or there are other reasons? Does the skin colour of a muslim matter to them when they hate ? Or do they just hate all?
The founders of Hindutva (Savarkar etc) expressed the belief that Muslims could not be loyal to India since their holy land is located in the Middle East. This was even before Partition. The animosity with Pakistan has also had a negative impact on India’s Muslims who are sometimes seen as fifth columnists. Recently, Hindutva types also harp on “1000 years of Occupation” and view the Mughals as a foreign occupying force rather than as a dynasty which was substantially Indianized.
Skin color is not really a factor since most Indian Muslims look fairly similar to Hindus (Most of them are descended from converts in any case).
It’s a bit of a stretch to call them substantially Indianized:
1. They never used an Indic language in their courts [ Turkic/Farsi]
2. They never used any local language in their administration [Farsi]
3. Their administrative ranks were certainly not concordant with the ranks of the Hindu empires before them
4. Most of them did indeed enforce the Jizya and have outright contempt and in many cases brutal repression for Hindus
5. The historical questions are over how many temples were destroyed and looted, not whether large numbers of them were. And mosques built in their place.
This Indian Muslim fetish with the Mughals (in many cases) needs to go. They were a brutal, foreign conquering dynasty, and are certainly widely perceived that way.
This Indian Muslim fetish with the Mughals (in many cases) needs to go. They were a brutal, foreign conquering dynasty, and are certainly widely perceived that way.
You must be young, or raised in the diaspora. I was born in India at the end of the ’70s, and until I graduated from high school, the Mughals were very much considered an Indian dynasty. Differentiation was made between good Mughals (like Akbar) and tyrannical Mughals (like Aurangzeb), but besides the knowledge of Babar’s foreign origin, they weren’t really considered foreign.
BTW…most of us, when we were kids, got our historical info from Amar Chitra Katha and the like. I was very interested in history, and a big reader (though too young to read the more comprehensive tomes), and I literally heard about the Babri masjid controversy just before the structure was demolished.
Up to the early 90s, I’d say the Hindutva crowd had miniscule impact on people. Hindutva affiliations were something no one advertised (my dad was briefly an RSS member in his youth, and he never ever mentioned it to me!) It’s only in the past 2-3 decades that their version of India’s past has gained ground, and is probably the dominant view in India today.
It’s not that I’m particularly young (mid 30s). It’s three things in descending order of importance
1. I’m a modernist. So for me, what India used to follow back in the days when it was a fragile post-colonial state led by incompetent Marxists should not and does not proscribe what it ought to follow to build a unifying national narrative. I’ve presented the facts for people to draw their inferences.
2. I grew up in Sikh dominated Punjab where no one will swallow any pabulum about how “Indianized” and “tolerant” the Mughals were. Most hunted the Sikhs with genocidal intent.
3. Modern media and the connectedness of the modern age has shown us what Islamist governments do to their non-muslim minorities, in particular the “people of the book” today! So we have a very vivid description of what Hindu ancestors and Sikh ancestors went through for centuries to complement written sources. Against that the banal exhortations of N.C.E.R.T history books are thin gruel.
Urdu is an indic language and was patronized by the mughals. Bahadur Shah Zafar wrote Urdu poetry. Hindustani classical music developed in mughal courts. They celebrated holi and diwali. After the first generations, many of them had Rajput blood.
You have expressed the BJP view of the Mughals which will never accept them as Indian because they were Muslim. You are entitled to your beliefs but they only reflect a bigoted understanding of history.
First of all, the Mughals did not use Urdu. They used Farsi and Turkic.
Second, the phrase Urdu comes from (zabān-i-)ordū ‘(language of the) camp’ (“Ordu” is a Turkic word). It was the language of the employees of the Mughals. Hardly a ringing endorsement. Add to that the fact that it’s written in semitic script (Arabic and logically flowing right to left).
Third, yes you’re correct. Urdu is an Indian origin language, however it is quite clearly intentionally made Perso-philic or Arab-philic.
So the question the right wing asks is – If you identify so strongly with Persia or Arabia that your very mother tongue takes their script, how Indian are you really? Call it ugly, bigoted, majoritarian or any other thin gruel the internet mojahideen love – however this question deserves an answer.
If the only thing that a lot of Indian Muslims love about India are the things that other Muslims have brought to India – do they even love anything about India?
The last Mughal emperor was literally writing Urdu poetry. That invalidates your point that the Mughals didn’t use Urdu. Urdu is a product of the syncretic Indo-Islamic culture as is Hindustani classical music. Khayal developed at the Mughal courts.
Yes, Urdu is written in Perso-Arabic script. I don’t see why this is a problem. If it was written in Devnagri, it would still be Urdu. Gandhiji had proposed that India’s national language should be Hindustani written in Devnagri. As for efforts to Persianize Urdu, similar efforts have been made to Sanskritize Hindi. That doesn’t change the fact that the language of common people across North India and Pakistan remains mutually intelligible. Pakistanis watch Bollywood without subtitles and barring particular words, have no issues understanding it.
The right wing equates “Indian” with “Hindu” which is a gross misunderstanding of History. Indo-Islamic culture developed in the subcontinent. It was not brought from outside. If you have such a problem with the Mughals, how about you give up the Red Fort and the Taj Mahal? History cannot be reduced to simplistic binaries of “Hindu” vs. “Muslim”.
VijayVan, India should definitely allow large numbers of moderate/liberal/atheist/minority muslims (who are being attacked by Islamists) to move to India. Planning to write on this at some point.
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Syndrome, Indians love immigrants in general. Love immigrants so much some might call it a fetish. Makes some immigrants uncomfortable.
Why would skin color matter?
Do you mean colorism? If so, colorism mostly operates as a socially influenced attribute of physical attractiveness. Darker people ceteris paribus get less invitations to dates and less marriage proposals.
How do you define hate?
Have you been to India? Have you visited the Sufi/Irfan pilgrimage spots in India? Sufis are quite popular among nonmuslims in India. And especially loved by the hard right. Including people depicted in the Western press as “white supremacist”, “Nazi”, “racist” etc.
Sufi, Irfan, liberal and atheist muslims are sometimes criticized by self described “liberals” and “leftists” in India and accused of Islamaphobia. Would you characterize this as hate?
About 80,000 Indians have been killed by Islamist terrorist attacks. Perhaps 20,000 of these were killed by Al Qaeda and Daesh related attacks. Indian Sufi, Irfan, twelver, sixer, Ahmedi, moderate, liberal, athiest muslims are especially targeted by Islamists–including foreign Islamists.
Because of this Indian muslims and Indian nonmuslims have a deep aversion to Islamists.
The Indian aversion to Islamists is not unique. How many countries can you name that don’t dislike Islamists?
To give you an idea of Indian dynamics, an exit poll was taken during the last Indian general election:
——56% of muslims opposed the BJP
——18% of muslims refused to state their position on the BJP or had no position on the BJP
——26% of muslims backed the BJP
Muslims in India are very diverse and varied. And very much integrated into the tapestry. My best guess is that India currently has 230 million muslims.
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Syndrome, can you share more about how various sects of muslims are treated in your home country?
India would be delivering a master stroke if it can give asylum to 100 Uygurs and they occasionally put placards in front of Chinese missions. Instead of going to western countries, some of them can come to India.
It would seem that Pakistani military and political elite completely misread Modi and his electoral victory. They figured that Modi and the BJP’s electoral platforms were just window dressing. “Perhaps if the BJP (Bharatiya Janata Party)….wins, some kind of settlement in Kashmir could be reached,” Khan told a small group of foreign journalists in an interview back in April, 2019.
Modi has indeed come up with his own resolution of J&K. This is a logical extension of the decision to disengage with Pakistan as much as possible. The BJP – and many non-BJP elites in India, over the last two decades reached this conclusion after Kargil and the Mumbai attacks. They did not believe that even the Pakistani Army and the ISI could not speak with one voice and they did not have the ability to faithfully carry out any agreement that could be reached.
This is what worries the US as well as it tried to extricate itself from Afghanistan. They are not sure about Pakistani Army (and ISI’s) multifarious objectives and activities.
Isn’t it clear by now that the Pakistani establishment (army/civilian mix) is a multi-headed hydra with an unchanging pair of purposes (primarily, keep the Kashmir dispute alive, and secondarily, maintain a military-jihadi complex to destabilize neighbouring countries as needed)? If any civilian or army leader tries to veer off purpose, they just get replaced pronto and nothing changes.
this seems to be a good point. the british were just as racist as the mughals after the 1820s or so (the anglo-indians ditched their delicious cosmopolitan indian cusine for shitty british cuisine).
Hoju
4 years ago
This may be worth it’s own post but did any of you see Imran Khan’s recent Twitter tirade?
Not sure how to feel about it, but I do have a few thoughts:
– I really dislike how IK is touting and promoting the Nehruvian & Gandhian idea of India. I prefer the Nehruvian & Gandhian idea of India. I prefer Congress to the BJP. But Imran Khan’s promotion of that idea will only hurt liberals in India. The right wing will easily be able to paint the Congress as a the kind of party Pakistanis like or the kind of party that the Pakistan government would like to have in place.
– While I agree with IK on the basics (i.e., unilaterally repealing special status is inconsistent with democratic norms; the lockdown and blackout is a humanitarian concern; Hindutva is a dangerous and exclusionary ideology)… he sounds like some childish Internet troll here. Like one of those online bhakt trolls.
– I wonder what this portends for India – Pakistan relations? I don’t foresee the BJP being elected out for at least a generation now, especially given their tight grip on the Election Commission and most media houses. If you make extreme statements like IK has done… I don’t see how the BJP will be willing to have dialogue and diplomacy after that. Or any Indian government for that matter.
Yeah. Those were my first thoughts. Why is Imran going overboard with the whole hindutva – nazis thing? Like most in India know what type of state pakistan is, but still in diplomatic norms Indian diplomats maintain certain protocols accorded to normal state. I would say that Imran by doing this has burnt bridges even with a future non bjp govt, because anyone non bjp ( even non government )who now engages with Pakistan will now be seen as Pakistan agent.
He is being too clever by half , thinking that attacking just the rss would somehow not affect the opposition to modi, strengthening them . Indian liberal elites for last few decades had tried the same faux differentiation ( Pakistan army and Pakistan people) and lost hopelessly.
All this mean article 370 was much more consequential ( for Pakistani and Kashmiris ) than we in India were let to believe.
Day by day I realize that IK is another example of the global right wing nationalist wave, which includes people like Trump, BoJo, Bolsanaro, Modi, etc.
Many diaspora Pakistanis seem to feel strongly that IK doesn’t belong with the others I listed above. But I think people are being duped by his relative charisma and youth.
I don’t think the BJP has the competence to improve Indian infrastructure or defense to, say, even China levels, let alone the US, but they have marshalled an extremely effective propaganda machine, based on social media networking and co-opting the vast majority of TV news. Free expression is a mix of dead and useless in India now.
(Public still thinks demonetization was a masterstroke and a sign of courage and decisiveness.)
\ I really dislike how IK is touting and promoting the Nehruvian & Gandhian idea of India.\
Taliban Khan is only discrediting the idea of Pakistan itself. Pakistan was born because Muslim League could not live with Nehru-Gandhi ideas and ideals. Now pining for the same after 70 years makes a mockery of his country, and it’s legitimacy.
Uh no, Pakistan was born because Jinnah and his contemporaries were keenly aware that the Nehruvian fantasy of a secular India for all peoples would give way sooner or later to Hindu Nationalism. Which is exactly what happened.
Uh no, Pakistan was born because Jinnah and his contemporaries were keenly aware that the Nehruvian fantasy of a secular India for all peoples would give way sooner or later to Hindu Nationalism. Which is exactly what happened.
if india had stayed unified 25-30% of the population would be muslim. this may have resulted in a large enough block of ‘non-hindutva’ to prevent this.
Most probably IM’s twitter account has been taken over by ISI , he is not a master of himself, poor chap
J T
4 years ago
IK has been discredited just as the entire Pakistani Military and Intelligence has been. They did not anticipate Modi having the gumption to take this step on J&K.
They are caught in a major bind. If they overtly and covertly support the disgruntled elements in J&K, it will give India the upper hand in the propaganda war and may even bring on retaliation from India. I don’t think Pakistan wants a hot war. its economy is too precarious and most importantly this will jeopardize the payoff that will likely come Pakistan’s way if the US is able to withdraw from Afghanistan without paying a steep price. This Afghan deal is now in jeopardy as J&K takes center stage.
OTOH, not taking a tough position on Modi’s action risks IK and Pakistani Army being discredited before the Pakistani public and more importantly in the eye of the jihadi elements that have been nursed for so long.
So IK and the Pakistani military will have to walk a fine line here. Talk the tough talk but do nothing that could get out of control.
In addition, IK was brought to power by the Pakistani Army, so he has to make sure that he is perfectly aligned with his handlers. IK and the Pakistani Army speaking of Nehruvian and Gandhian ideals is hogwash and does not pass any smell test.
There really is no deal to be had right now between India and Pakistan. India has been shunning Pakistan for the last few years, and is not about to provide any opening that could serve as a propaganda victory for IK and the Pakistani Army.
One way that Pakistan could pressure India is through China. But China also has its hands full with the Hong Kong protests. In addition China does not wish to encourage a conflict between India and Pakistan which drags “Azad” Kashmir and Gilgit & Baltistan into the mix. If India is able to strike these area with impunity, that raises a big question mark on the security of CPEC.
The issue is not Pakistan. I agree Pakistan cannot do very much about Indian-held Kashmir other than raise the issue at international forums.
However, how can anyone of good conscience defend putting Kashmiris under lockdown and removing all communication tools? Do you seriously think this is going to win hearts and minds? When the lockdown is eventually lifted, what is stop anger from coming out on the streets again? Pakistan will continue to fan the flames of the domestic Kashmiri insurgency because it can. The best way to stop it from doing so is to not take such draconian steps in the first place.
India can act in Kashmir the way Israel acts in Palestine. Sure, the international community can’t do anything but anyone who thinks that the Kashmiris, like the Palestinians, will stop fighting for their freedom is kidding themselves.
Scorpion Eater
4 years ago
Sometimes I wonder if China is on even shakier ground than India as a state. Most states have a core national identity. If Han is China’s identity, I guess most appropriate core identity for India will be Hinduism.
To the best of my knowledge Hindus in any part of India are not revolting to secede from India. OTOH, Hong Kong people are openly shouting for “freedom”. Media reports say barely 10% Hong Kong people identify themselves as Chinese.
Also, the fellow Han Chinese country Taiwan shows no inclination to join the mainland.
And we have not even started talking about non-Han people like Tibetans and Uighurs.
I think Chinese leadership needs some deep thinking about their country’s future.
OTOH, Hong Kong people are openly shouting for “freedom”. Media reports say barely 10% Hong Kong people identify themselves as Chinese.
hong kong is atypical due to its unique british heritage (also, the cantonese dialect is dominant and that makes it distinct from the mainland where mandarin is much more normative).
Also, the fellow Han Chinese country Taiwan shows no inclination to join the mainland.
why would they? they are rich and free. like singapore.
also, it is important to note that many of the leaders of the protest movement are from hong kong’s christian minority. they have some ‘skin in the game.’
92% of the population of the PRC is han. this is an underestimate because ppl have an incentive to identify as an ethnic minority due to affirmative action (none of the 15 million manchu speak manchu anymore, it’s a dead language, and most are basically han though they have some manchu ancestry).
your comment seems to lack an awareness of the nature of han ethnicity or its long association with a unitary state. the problem with PRC is that it has economic/demographic headwinds due to one-child policy, and its strategy of mollifying the middle-class with economic growth. if the growth stops and china stagnates they’ll have to get seriously totalitarian i assume….
(the uyghur and tibet situation are different, as those regions have not even historically been part of china)
“also, it is important to note that many of the leaders of the protest movement are from hong kong’s christian minority. they have some ‘skin in the game.’”
I’m curious about your source for this? AFAIK, there is no discernible leader for the current protests, although on telegram groups there are some members that clearly much more active than others but that’s about as far as anyone I’ve spoken to knows.
Thanks for that — particularly the info from the grapevine. Complicates the narrative of those trying to refute the CPC talking points.
Fwiw locals are starting to have serious concerns about the editorial independence of the South China Morning Post (linked article) since their purchase by the Alibaba group a few years ago. I first started to notice something was off during the coverage of the ’17 Doklam standoff.
What this shows is simply that Han Chinese are happy to be part of a country that looks toward future success and prosperity (which includes the kinds of freedoms the HKers are fighting for) whereas Hindus are content to be part of a country that wallows in prehistoric pastoral nostalgia, future be damned.
Why do you expect China’s level of prosperity without taking their political system in mind? You can’t have the best of both worlds. China’s ability to do anything is heavily dependent on their political system. Give them democracy and see the whole thing unravel.
Someone joked on twitter that the best way for China to deal with HK protesters is to take them to India for a week. Once they are back they will abandon all crazy ideas about democracy.
Democracy does not mean bureaucracy, regulations and lassitude. If they exchanged political systems, China would be further ahead of where It is now and India worse off.
But democracy does mean you have to be (more) responsive to what your people want. In the case of India, that means farmers wanting more subsidies, labor groups demanding higher minimum wages, local leaders wanting you to invest in particular places, and so on.
China doesn’t have to deal with any of that, and can focus single-mindedly on development. It doesn’t matter what color the cat is for them…Indians have a lot more specifications for their kitty.
Of course China would be destroying India in every universe because of its superior human capital and infrastructure, but the race could have been a bit closer.
Saurav
4 years ago
I think that even if China stagnates it need not go more totalitarian. It has enough unified identity.( 92 percent in more than enough ) , a superpower foe ( which helps unity building), and enough money in the bank to mollify the middle class. Of course it’s external plans take a bit of hit and it might have to for sometime take internal actions
For all the Tibet , xianyang and Hong Kong problems( all 3 problems are exaggerated in terms of problems for China I feel ) In the larger scheme of things China has “managed” them better than India has. For all the hue and cry on Hong Kong I feel if China sends in the army , it’s ready to take a diplomatic hit and that would be the end of the story.
tibet is more about pride than substance. they could let it go (most tibetans actually live outside of the autonomous region in qinghai and sichuan). it’s kind of like kashmir is to india.
xinjiang is different, as it has some resources and geostrategic relevance. but the han chinese hae already taken over dzhungaria, which was never inhabited by many muslims in the first place (they killed all the dzunghar mongols).
I think China expends less energy on Tibet than India does in Kashmir. Once the Lama dies whatever residue movement is there will peter out, and it will become totally part of China. India will give Lama’s follower citizenship and that would be end of it. I would still not say that Tibet is that inconsequential though. It keeps in check its regional foe (India), and India’s water come from there , a useful future tool to coerce India.
Dont know that much about Xiangyang’s Geo political thing, considering i always felt that the whole central asian connectivity which China is doing is a bit of overkill. The ROI i feel is not there. Out of all the projects i feel this area is perhaps in biggest danger of sunken cost for China.
Once the Lama dies whatever residue movement is there will peter out, and it will become totally part of China.
no, tibetans are going to be the majority for the foreseeable future. non-tibetan women have horrible miscarriage rates at altitude, and non-tibetans just don’t like living in Lhasa for long term cuz of the elevation. dalai lama is actually kind of a dove.
i think tibet will be a long-term problem because they can’t easily demographically swamp the autonomous province (they already did that in qinghai).
Dont know that much about Xiangyang’s Geo political thing, considering i always felt that the whole central asian connectivity which China is doing is a bit of overkill. The ROI i feel is not there. Out of all the projects i feel this area is perhaps in biggest danger of sunken cost for China.
their goal is to get rail & road transport to go from xian in china proper all the way to europe. it will be more $ than water, but much faster. probably feasible for value-added goods. xinjiang is a significant fraction of the distance. going through kazakhan, and russia, they can make it the EU. that’s the goal. but agree it’s a ‘long view’
Tibet is the largest source freshwater repository on the planet between the two Poles. Source of the Yellow River, Yangtze, Mekong, Salween, Sutlej and the Brahmaputra.Vital for China to keep as water dries up in Asia and becomes the likely impetus for future wars over the next decades.
Tibet is the third largest repository of freshwater in the world and the source of nine major Chinese and Indian rivers. Wars will be fought over water in South Asia in the near future.
The single-minded focus on development has left China with a debt mountain that will hobble their growth for years to come. The lack of democratic accountability helped give it the one-child policy meaning large parts of China will be old well before they become rich. And it also resulted in massive amounts of environmental degradation. The economic growth is probably cold comfort to Chinese farmers who were forced to give up their homes since they were inconveniently in the path of a development project.
China would have done well if it took a more balanced and accountable path to development. There is a reason large segments of the Chinese middle class have moved to Australia, the US, Canada etc. They would rather not be railroaded by the ChiCom machine.
So the question the right wing asks is – If you identify so strongly with Persia or Arabia that your very mother tongue takes their script, how Indian are you really? Call it ugly, bigoted, majoritarian or any other thin gruel the internet mojahideen love – however this question deserves an answer.
the fixation on script is weird. i get the point, but vietnam and mongolia have changed scripts in the past hundred years or so and they’re still who they are. the *reason* is the key.
The point is, Urdu is defined by its script to a large extent. If Urdu were to be written in nagari script, it would be Hindi. (OK, this is somewhat simplistic take, but essentially true.)
The whole 1860s hindi-urdu controversy which caused the permanent schism between the two languages was about the script. Before the formal adoption of different scripts by both languages, there was no firm dividing line between the two languages. They were generally seen as a single language called Hindustani. So in many ways it was the script which formalized Urdu.
Urdu written in roman letters is still Urdu. Changing script doesn’t change the language.
Hindi-Urdu is one language (Hindustani). Hindi and Urdu are standardized registers.
If you look at Duolingo’s Hindi lessons for example, it is basically the same as Urdu. OK, the days of the week have different names and some vocabulary is different (“”svasth” instead of “tandroost” for “healthy”) but the main issue is simply learning to read the Devnagari script.
The State has promoted a more Persianized Urdu but the language of the common person would still be understood by the average North Indian. There has been a phenomenon where “Khuda Hafiz” has been replaced by “Allah Hafiz” primarily because “Khuda” is seen as a neutral term for God while Allah is the specifically Islamic God. And some people have started saying “Jazak Allah” instead of “shukriya” for thank you. But by and large the Urdu spoken is still closer to Hindustani.
There is an easy way to decide just how comprehensible Urdu is to Indians. Listen to the innumerable youtube videos presenting Pakistani TV shows (news, sports, plays, interviews.) Pay particular attention to the diction and speech of regular folks when they are interviewed.
Try reading Ghalib, Faiz, other contemporary poets. (check out urdupoetry.com, for instance)
Now do the same for Hindi TV and poetry.
Never ask someone else what the weather is when you can just step outside your house and check for yourselves.
“It should be noted that the Balochistan Assembly had already rejected any suggestion of forfeiting the independence of Balochistan on any pretext.
To say that the Baloch have been ill-treated by all governments and military establishments since their land was illegally and forcefully taken over would be an understatement.”
Compare that to Kashmir , where the Accession to India was legal and included the whole territory of J&K kingdom , part of which is occupied by Pakistan illegally.
I know we want to use Balochistan as a cudgel to beat Pakistan when they talk about Kashmir, but it’s not very forward-looking. From what I’ve read, the locals who want independence/autonomy are pretty backward and tribal, and have practices that would be repugnant to most of us. The Pakistani regime there is, believe it or not, more progressive than a purely local one would be.
Isn’t this what we think about Kashmir too? That it will turn into a medieval Islamic state, maybe Taliban-like if not ISIS-like, if we leave?
\Pakistani regime there is, believe it or not, more progressive than a purely local one would be\
Pakistan is trying hard to impose Taliban on Afghanistan , which is going to drag to even more medievalism and even more misery on Afghanistan; Pakistan has kept the tribalism in KyberPukhtunwa intact and cynically use Pashtoons as a jihad fodder against India and Afghanistan. In fact Pakistan has used Taliban, JaisheMohammed and other jihadi outfits to hammer secular nationalism or sub-nationalism in Balochistan , NWFP and Sindh and Afghanistan.
Pakistani regime is hardly progressive – otherwise it would have killed secularists in NWFP or even Balochistan
That we think that we can do anything for Balochistan while struggling to “handle” Kashmir, says a lot about how India doesn’t live in a real world, but some make believe one.
First of all the Baloch are a minority in their own province. And from that half of them roughly are with the state.Second they are as Islamist (not withstanding their foreign educated tribal leaders) as their pashutns brethren. They espouse supposedly progressive values because that irks Pakistan (just like Kashmiri islamist vs secular India). Oldest trick in the book, to fight the establishment , become what they are not.In Pakistan it means becoming secular, progressive etc, even though you dont believe in it.
Finally to India, we are glorified IAS babus who man the post for RAW and all. This is not a Bollywood movie. We dont expect them to fix the economy and infrastructure of our country, but somehow we want them to become MOSSAD over night. LOL. Pakistan at least has army folks for ISI (who have some idea) which is still better than a civilian who is more interested in getting the next promotion and get a private job once they retire.
Balochistan is not a Disputed Territory. No Pakistani leader ever went to the UN and promised the Baloch people a plebiscite.
Islamabad does need to address the legitimate grievances of the Baloch but this is truly an “internal matter” of Pakistan. Kashmir would be India’s “internal matter” if the territory wasn’t in dispute. Pakistan has no stake in Manipur or Nagaland, so we don’t involve ourselves in those issues. Similarly, Balochistan has nothing to do with India.
“(Public still thinks demonetization was a masterstroke and a sign of courage and decisiveness.)”
I agree with you that free speech is dead in India thanks in large part to the BJP.
But what’s shocking to me is that there are even diaspora Indians in countries where free speech is still respected (like US / Canada) who still strongly feel that demonetization was good.
Sometimes people are just dumb and stubborn.
Syndrome
4 years ago
Nobody has answered my question yet.
As a researcher,i am asking the question again.
So,the hindu-muslim problem in South Asia has nothing to do with race or ethnicity and it is mostly religious?
And you ppl do not care about the race or ancestry or ethnicity of a person when you hate him for religious differences?
@razib khan no,i have noticed racial differences within people of the same ethnolingual group
Cheers☺
No i am not talking about religious groups. I am talking about all the members of the ethnicity in general…btw pls share those data with source if u wish.
It is hard to believe that ppl can hate solely on a religious basis for whatever the reason be. Subcontinent is interesting.
no people can also hate based on lies about descent from ” inherently superior” arabs, turks, persians, and don’t forget most importantly, Alexander’s army.
Syndrome, if i’ve understood your question properly, I’d say that religion is only symbolic of a civilizational difference. There’s no theological debate and the most ardent hindutva-ite doesn’t get riled up or offended by abrahamic conceptions of the divine. India has hundreds of competing caste/jaati/ethnic groups, hinduism is a loose syndicate comprising most of these, but sunni islam is a significant and very coherent minority. In the mind of a common islamophobe/islamoskeptic, muslims are the most intransigent of castes. Their end game is at odds with the nationalist project of a strong civilizational state, and along with christians and marxists they undermine the leadership of the hindu elites. A lot of liberals don’t feel compelled to bat for muslims because they see them as hopelessly regressive when it comes to gender and lifestyle issues, and put somewhat less emphasis on free thinking.
As much as exogenous origins are used as a cudgel against indian islam in the savarkarite discourse, I don’t think that a more west asian phenotype would intensify one’s dislike towards muslims, if anything it may soften it. What does rile up some people are a sea of burqas and men with trousers hemmed at the mid-shin, and the feeling that there is a parallel society that is immune to any broader influences.
In the common understanding, theres a tiny muslim elite, a proportionally small middle class, and a vast underclass. Unfortunately, much contempt is reserved for the last category (the least foreign looking), and they are considered unclean by many, particularly vegetarians. Vegetarian hindus, who are largely self-segregated, are the most influential and urbanized section of the population and dominate commerce and have a strong legacy in public administration.
Finally, the hindu-muslim dynamic is different in every region and these crude generalizations don’t characterize islamo-skepticism everywhere. Uttar pradesh, Kerala, and Assam are all very different.
So,the hindu-muslim problem in South Asia has nothing to do with race or ethnicity and it is mostly religious?
And you ppl do not care about the race or ancestry or ethnicity of a person when you hate him for religious differences?
This is by no means unusual. Yugoslavs had (have?) the same neuroses: Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks.
I’d mention Northern Ireland too but I’m not sure if the Protestants in Ulster (most descended from Scots, I believe) are genetically distinguishable from their Catholic neighbors. Visually, they look quite similar to me.
@scorpion eater what u are saying is not completely true for sure but it is really good if u don’t hate. Who knows may be i am white/brown/black etc or may be someone near u. U never know?
@girmit so religious hatred is a bit like caste hatred or may be mainly because “muslims eat” meat?
Syndrome, can you tell us what is your position related to few things: Jihad, kill infidels, sharia law, taqiyya, 77 virgins, underage sex, leaving the movement or converting? Txs.
Well milan u r assuming that Syndrome is a muslim…i dont know if your assumption is true or false..since somehow i am a muslim i will try to answer. i dont have any position on these things or i am quite like neutral since these are not the basics of islam. Most Muslims usually dont care about these things. But if u insist:
1.jihad should not be against civilians and it should be only for defence purpose.
2. I have many non muslim friends who are doing fine in my muslim country and islam doesn’t necessarily tell u to kill infidels. At least vast majority of muslims literally believe that islam is peaceful. The apparently violent verses are all about context.
3. I dont think most muslim countries have sharia law and i (like majority muslims )dont even know what these laws are and what are the sources of such law. However religion must not be politically enforced on ppl as it will take them away from the religion.
4. Never heard of Taqiyya. So i searched google. It seems like that it is mostly a shia philosophical concept and not exactly religious.
5. 72 virgins,not 77. Well,personally i think that 1 partner is more fun but i am ok with 72 ?since it is a matter of Afterlife so i dont see any problem here.
6. It is very stupid to assume that a muslim or person of any religion will see everything from a religious view point. Personally(not from religious viewpoint),i think that underage marriage is OK if both person have consent and marriage should be the percondition for sex. In texas the minimum age for marriage is 14.
7. I personally will not support leaving islam since it may create mental and social unrest in the long run. But i know someone who has left islam and i am fine with it. People lose themselves but they find it all.
It is a great thing if people convert to islam willingly. I know a few examples. but they must not be forced bcz u cannot just make someone believe something by force.
Also,I am writing from a secular perspective and not from a religious perspective about the good sides of islam:
1.zakat (poor tax) is obligatory which can play a significant role to eradicate poverty.
2. this religion can strongly influence (May be this religion is one of the strongest ) a person as it is obligatory to pray at least 5 times a day,fast 1 month a year starting from dawn to dusk
3. It is difficult for a person to leave the religion after entering it because of fear of afterlife and also because of some of its rituals
4. it includes perfect punishment for crimes that can lessen crimes to a great extent (for example, death sentence for rape)
5. This religion suggests not to do racial/ethnic/caste discrimination. Last prophet of this religion said in his farewell speech,”All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor does a black have any superiority over white except by piety and good action.”(source : Sahih Mslm,Tirmizi etc.)So it can ultimately remove /lessen certain discriminations
6. this religion had been the influence for creation of diverse strong and longlasting empires
7. Maintaining inner peace just like other religions
8. It can help to escape moral dilemmas by fixing certain rules just like many other religions
9. its certain ceremonies like eid ul adha can boost up the economy
10. not being charitable for the able ones is considered a sin in this religion.it says that a non-charitable person would be punished after death. so, by provoking charity it can ultimately help the betterment of the society
11.Alcohol and probably also addictive substances are prohibited.it can increase productivity and lessen crimes including murdering someone unconsciously
12. it criticizes(and may be forbids) forced marriage of women. it has fixed the highest number a man could marry (probably no other religion fixed this)
13.By regularly giving Azan regularly 5 times(a kind of loud recitation of short verses for a few minutes), its external existence prevails
But,may be most of its followers don’t follow it completely (yes they follow to a great extent but also ignores to a great extent). and many have misconceptions regarding this religion
I usually dont care but since u r asking:
1. Jihad should not be waged against civilians and should be for defence purpose.
2. Islam doesn’t necessarily say to kill infidels. The verses are all about context. At least vaat majority of Muslims literally believe that islam is peaceful.
3. Never heard of taqiyya. So searched google. It seems that it is a matter of shia philosophy and not exactly religious
4. 72 virgins, not 77. I personal think that 1 partner is more fun but OK with 72 ?. It is about afterlife. So its ok.
5. Most muslims like me probably dont know about sharia law,its source and dont care. Most muslim countries dont have the sharia law. I think that religion should not be politically imposed bcz it may turn ppl away from the religion and discourage ppl to be with Islam.
6. I personally(not from religious view point) think that underage marriage is ok only if both sides give consent. But most ppl i know will probably oppose. I think marriage should be the precondition for sex. In Texas minimum age for marriage is 14
7. Converting ppl peacefully is ok. I personally know some examples of conversion. You cant just make someone believe something by force.
8. I will oppose leaving the religion since it may create mental and familial unrest. I know a person who left the religion and i am fine with such ppl as long as they are decent. People lose themselves but they find it all
Most Hindus eat meat as well, but in public spaces they genuflect to chaste upper caste notions of purity. Muslims are less likely to do this I suppose. Muslim neighborhoods buzz with a lot of petty trade activity, like automotive shops, welding, and scrap dealers, fruit wholesalers, and butchers, particularly in peninsular India. There’s a certain messy economic independence that might be interpreted as effrontery.
Here’s another armchair hypothesis, villainizing Islam is necessary to consolidate hindus, who otherwise are too diverse to forge a genuine nationality around.
@girmit u are one of the few sane persons here who give proper replies.
Btw i thought that majority indians dont care about caste unless it comes to marriage. And are the muslims (poor ones) hated also for caste issues?
@milan i have no position rn. But, contrary to popular non-muslim beliefs, muslims i know aren’t that extreme and they care little about those things. They have non muslim friends and they do fine with them. I want to study islam, hinduism and other religions. It is stupid to believe that a religious person will always see things from a religious viewpoint.
I am writing from a secular perspective about my current understanding of islam and not from a religious perspective:
1.zakat (poor tax) is obligatory which can play a significant role to eradicate poverty.
2. this religion can strongly influence (May be this religion is one of the strongest ) a person as it is obligatory to pray at least 5 times a day,fast 1 month a year starting from dawn to dusk
3. It is difficult for a person to leave the religion after entering it because of fear of afterlife and also because of some of its rituals
4. it includes perfect punishment for crimes that can lessen crimes to a great extent (for example, death sentence for rape)
5. This religion suggests not to do racial/ethnic/caste discrimination. Last prophet of this religion said in his farewell speech,”All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor does a black have any superiority over white except by piety and good action.”(source : Sahih Mslm,Tirmizi etc.)So it can ultimately remove /lessen certain discriminations
6. this religion had been the influence for creation of diverse strong and longlasting empires
7. Maintaining inner peace just like other religions
8. It can help to escape moral dilemmas by fixing certain rules just like many other religions
9. its certain ceremonies like eid ul adha can boost up the economy
10. not being charitable for the able ones is considered a sin in this religion.it says that a non-charitable person would be punished after death. so, by provoking charity it can ultimately help the betterment of the society
11.Alcohol and probably also addictive substances are prohibited.it can increase productivity and lessen crimes including murdering someone unconsciously
12. it criticizes(and may be forbids) forced marriage of women. it has fixed the highest number a man could marry as polygamy was a common ancient practice (probably no other religion fixed this)
13.By regularly giving Azan regularly 5 times(a kind of loud recitation of short verses for a few minutes), its external existence prevails
But,may be most of its followers don’t follow it completely (yes they follow to a great extent but also ignores to a great extent). and many have misconceptions regarding this religion
Waiting for Syndromes’ reply, I was expecting to witness the miracle – to see the first muslim (you are?) to denounce jihad, kill infidels, sharia, taqiyya, conversion, 77 virgins. It could be a one-line statement – all previous are in a range of primitive barbaric (kill infidels) to primitive moronic (77). Now, I see that you are a Bengali (?) i.e. a softer Islamic version in comparison to Paks. You blew this chance, but you will get another one. So far, the most radical (i.e. liberal) assertion here on previous was – I, myself, have never screamed ‘kill infidels’. Such positions (maybe because of fear?) compromise the whole movement and reiterate the conclusion that the term – muslim liberal – is an oxymoron.
LoL. Syndrome is a desi person, and a muslim to boot. He is probably located in subcontinent (tho i don’t have his IP, someone with the knowledge of his/her IP can easily geo-locate him).
But he is a well meaning person. Kind of a more provincial version of Kabir.
Syndrome, you will be fine here. And no, Hindus don’t hate all Muslims. They are just being more-than-usual outspoken in the anonymity of the Internet.
This is intensely racialized. The motivations aren’t just Sikh history of supporting federalism, due to hot and cold moments with Punjab independence calls.
Many Sikhs on quora are complaining that immigrant Biharis and Uppites are mixing with their youth thus diluting their “aryan” features. Some of it is their own fault with selective female abortions and the resulting imbalanced gender ratios leading men to “import” brides from UP and Bihar.
The irony of it all is that it was the Sikhs (under Ranjit Singh) who conquered Kashmir for India (as it would turn out.) If that hadn’t happened, the valley may well have been an Afghan province today. (And Jammu would be part of Punjab, and Ladakh, as part of Tibet, under the Chinese jackboot.)
And the Sikhs weren’t nice to the Kashmiri Muslims during their rule. Cow slaughter was banned, azaan in the mosques was banned, tax rates were exorbitant.
What was odd to me was the divergence in steppe levels in some groups like Jats and Khatris in the C S Asia paper and Narsimha 2018 one.
I also think these groups are more diverse than people think. Anecdotally, I see more “atypical” individuals do ancestry testing. And while phenotype doesn’t equal genotype, the two of course are not mutually exclusive. I think that is some of source of dissonance between frequently put forth anthrogenica tabulations based on Harrapa world results and other calculators and the papers that tend to come out.
I believe two groups among hindus have highest steppe component, namely north indian brahmins and jats. Can the genetic software tools give the date of the steppe admixture event for both these groups?
Basically, what I am trying to get at is that is it possible that while brahmins may have got their steppe blood from the original aryan migrants, Jats may the descendants of the Hun/Scythian incursion into India around 300-600 AD?
The reason I suspect this is because we know that there was large scale migration from central asia into India during Hun/Scythian period. Since these tribes eventually merged into the general mass of Hindus, it would make sense that they would leave a genetic imprint. If we can date the admixture events accurately, it can verify the old hypothesis that jats and rajputs are descendants of these central asian tribes.
I believe two groups among hindus have highest steppe component, namely north indian brahmins and jats.
i could double-check, but i think jatts are higher.
the general steppe admixture is ~4,000 years ago with huge confidence interval last i checked. the issue is if the extra dosage was small, it would be hard to detect. usually admixture dates are for the more recent…but if jatts are steppe+indian with steppe, might be hard.
i don’t know if this idea of large-scale migration for jats. but it’s not crazy going on genetics alone as it was 10 years ago
My two cents for the high steppe agricultural and herding tribes of the NW
It seems like they were on the edge of S Asia and migrated for whatever reason after the caste hierarchy was already established. I don’t think it is “Central Asia” in the traditional sense but more of the NWFP area in modern day Pakistan. I think they are almost like Pashtuns pre-Caucasian population admix that migrated deeper into subcontinent and mixed a bit with locals.
Ancient DNA and isotope dating used to trace skeletal remains in Roopkund lake, 5000m above sea level in Uttarakhand, to three population groups. Most are similar to modern Indians, and some samples similar to modern eastern-Mediterraneans and south-east asians.
Scorpion Eater
4 years ago
“his IP is out of dhaka!”
🙂
his (or may be her) writing style, and warm-fuzzy view of islam was a dead giveaway.
Milan Todorovic
4 years ago
Re: Jats
I wrote in details before, now very briefly. What WIKI says:
“ Today, the merger of the two nations (‘MT: Swedes and Gaets’) is complete, as there is no longer any tangible identification in Götaland with a Geatish identity, apart from the common tendency of people living in those areas to refer to themselves as västgötar (West Geats) and östgötar (East Geats). The city Göteborg, known in English as Gothenburg, was named after the Geats (Geatsburg or fortress of the Geats), when it was founded in 1621….
… Until 1973 the official title of the Swedish king was King of the Swedes, the Geats/Goths and the Wends (with the formula “Sveriges, Götes och Vendes konung”. The title “King of the Wends” was copied from the Danish title, while the Danish kings called themselves “King of the Gotlanders” (which, like “Geats”, was translated into “Goths” in Latin) were also used by Danish royalty. The WENDS is a term normally used to describe the Slavic peoples who inhabited large areas of modern east Germany and Pomerania.
The titles, however, changed when the new king Carl XVI Gustaf in 1973 decided that his royal title should simply be King of Sweden. The disappearance of the old title was a decision made entirely by the king. The old title in Latin was “N.N. Dei Gratia, Suecorum, Gothorum et VANDALORUM Rex. ” (end of citation)
Well, Slavic people did not exist before the 7th c.AC, there were only Serbs, i.e. Wends (remember: Wends-Veneti-Venezia-vendare-vending machines!). I also wrote about culturally advanced Serbian tribe Vandals (remember Djerba i.e. Serba island in Tunisia) who practiced Aryanism.
And, finally, as I wrote before, some of these Gaets i.e. (Massa-Geats) i.e. Hets i.e. Goths came to SA and some of their descendants are Jats. Some Hets previously fought Egyptian pharos (Ramses, Sestrosis) what was written on their tombstones. Small world, isn’t it?
Saurav
4 years ago
Razib
Had a question
Where does this idea that both Jats and Gujjars as pretty late entrant to the subcontinent come from? Some folks say even rajputs are from outside. Is it because pre 7th century there is hardly mention about these groups in the texts? If that’s the case one could say even Marathas are foreign considering there is hardly much mention till their rise in 16th-17th century.
I am a bit skeptical on the whole Khazar-Gujjar or Synthican-Jats thing. Both Khazar and Synthian seem to be pretty distant from the subcontinent and if there was these mass migration after Mauryan period we would have atleast some texts recording it.
There could be two possibility that either the Jats,Gujjars with higher steppe (than normal) came with the other same people during the initial migration or they were folks of the intermixing of Greco-Indian Kingdoms of the western India, which Gupta finally defeated and then because of them coming into the “Hindu” fold started getting recorded in the texts, which was interpreted as people coming from outside. I would also discount the White Huns because they were present only for a century in those areas.
I am a bit skeptical on the whole Khazar-Gujjar or Synthican-Jats thing.
gujjar are not any different from other punjabis. so don’t believe.
i don’t know what’s going on with jats. the scythian model seems implausible. but it turns out some of the jats are among the most “ANI-cline” shifted south asians, as much as kalash. but they are right in the middle of punjab. and not brahmins obv.
if i had to bet i think something late that is ‘afghan-like’ came into s. asia before 1000 AD, and contributed to the jats.
note: the term ‘Scythian’ is from ‘Saka’ right? these are an iranian group originally, and from central asia. some had interactions with chinese.
Milan Todorovic
4 years ago
Did I say that any scientific paper not refereeing Lepenski Vir and Vinca is about worthless? Yes, I think, I did.
Well, New York Times had yesterday an article about Lepenski Vir. I was expecting that sooner or later they must come there. There are few information, few speculations, unavoidable Reich. I will make my comment but there are an excerpt from the article, about LV figurines:
NY Times: “The farmers did not bring them with them. The hunter-gatherers did not make them before the farmers came. They did not spread to the rest of Europe.
I have on my desk now replicas of two of the heads that I picked up when I visited the museum at Lepenski Vir. I look at them and I feel a muddled kinship to the artists, the departed souls, the sturgeon. I too would like to know the answer to what I believe is their question.
How did this happen to me?
But I tell them what I told my son. I have absolutely no idea.”
I’m curious about your opinions, since I think that within the Bangladeshi context you are probably part of the educated elite and also reasonabe.
From your daily experience, would you say that there are a lot of Hindus in Dhaka/Bangladesh? Do you interact with them often? Or have they become a very small, almost invisible group?
What do you think of Bangladeshi Hindus? Do you see them as equally Bangladeshi as Bangladeshi muslims? Do you see them as your “brothers” and “sisters”, or as half-foreigners with one foot in India?
What do you think of West Bengal/Kolkata? Do you see that part of India as essentially the same people as Bangladeshis? Or are they fundamentally a different group, because of their religion or nationality?
Would you say most Bangladeshis are Bangladeshi first and Muslim second, or Muslim first and Bangladeshi second?
It is a sad thing that my location has been exposed.
No, i am not from an educated elite background. May be i am from the urban middle class.
Yes there are a lot of hindus in Dhaka(and may be Bangladesh). They are everywhere in private and government sectors. Also,the government intentionally gives advantage to hindus in government and non government jobs for political reasons. However, i dont see it as the fault of any hindu person and the government is to blame for this. I interact with hindus very often and i have several hindu friends. The best childhood friend of my semi-islamist father is a hindu.
I see hindus as equally bangladeshi. May be some of them have soft corners for India and it is technically and theoretically possible for India to use them. Some (or many idk) hindus have relatives from india and have indian(west bengali?) roots. If a person is good i have no problem with him.
I dont know a lot about west bengalis but I’d assume that we are somehow very related to them(may be except brahmins). What does “same people” exactly mean? For example,by some simple blood tests you can easily identify a Bangladeshi (and may be other bengali muslims and may be rohingyas) since there are strong mongoloid indicators in our blood that probably other south asians dont have. I dont know a lot about history but as far as i know east bengalis had been culturally and socially a separate group for thousands of years. It depends on how u see “common people”.
There are some anti indian sentiments in Bangladesh because somehow the steps taken by the indian government has a negative impact on the economy,job sector and politics of Bangladesh (our government which has won the last election by fake votes is also backed by india). There are some reasons(that i know from personal sources and recent incidents) to think that some spy groups by means of conspiracy may try to create communal unrest in Bangladesh to achieve some geopolitical and civilizational aims which will be very dangerous for Bangladeshis. Anyway, i will not blame any common hindu person for these things.
I dont think most Bangladeshis will have any stand on whether they are Bangladeshi/muslim first since apparently such questions are divisive. But if u insist i think that they will be muslim 1st and then Bangladeshi (like me and many other muslims of the world)
I hope i answered your curiosity. Please dont continue this conversation because i want to focus on my real life instead of virtual life ?
Would a free trade, free investment, free business development, free cross border product development agreement between Bangladesh and India be good? Perhaps coupled with millions of work visas, day permit work visas (for those who live next to the Indian border), business visas, student visas, tourist visas, religious visas?
Could Bangladesh better market a religious tourist circuit that heavily emphasizes Hindu/Buddhist/Jain/Sufi places?
Why are Bangladeshi Sufi places not as famous as Sufi places in India?
This might sound odd ball. Are you familiar with Baba Lokenath? How is he viewed in Bangladesh?
Finally Pakistan is feeling what Indians have been feeling all these years. Doing worthless diplomatic stuff to cater to domestic crowd which has no effect on the other country.
2) India’s ex-defence minister and finance minister is about to be jailed on corruption charges. Having run out of options, he might just resort to “Aryan, Brahmanical conspiracy to jail proud son-of-the-soil Dravidian, resisting Hindu rastra ” or some variant of that.
Pakistan might see it as jailing of the one big guy opposed to BJP on Kashmir, hopefully they pronounce his name correctly this time around.
“2) India’s ex-defence minister and finance minister is about to be jailed on corruption charges. Having run out of options, he might just resort to “Aryan, Brahmanical conspiracy to jail proud son-of-the-soil Dravidian, resisting Hindu rastra ” or some variant of that.”
As usual, India is following Pakistan’s footsteps by imprisoning political opponents.
To be fair to GoI, allegations and legal action against Chidambaram and his son is brewing for a long time. It just came to boil now. However that is not the last of it. Most probably Chidambaram will be released after few days and over few yewars all the cases against him will lose steam.
Indian mentality usually refrains from delivering coup de grace against opponents or even criminals. It is always a picture of raised hand about to deliver a blow which never comes down and delivers the deadly blow. To put it differently , all erections no orgasm.
I read the op-ed. I don’t see what is “anti-India” about it (unless someone thinks anything anti-BJP is anti-India). The author makes the simple point that Kashmiri Pandit suffering should not be used to justify Kashmiri Muslim suffering. Nowhere does she deny the Pandit tragedy. This doesn’t seem like it would be particularly controversial, but people have jumped down her throat in the comments.
South Asians have a very thin skin. It should be perfectly OK to criticize the actions of particular governments without being accused of being “anti-national”. Also, you can’t control the media discourse in foreign countries the way you can at home.
\Kashmiri Pandit suffering should not be used to justify Kashmiri Muslim suffering\
This is a straw man argument. Nobody is setting off one suffering against another suffering. There is no calculus of suffering The fact is in one part of India , terrorists using religious language and religious motivation , uprooted people of another religion calls for strong measures. Ethnic cleansing cannot take place under the nose of the govt. Any govt worth it’s salt is going to bring about order and make sure all it’s citizens are protected and under no conditions ethnic cleansing takes place
The Pandits were not ethnically cleansed. This is another case of Indians throwing out a term (like genocide) without caring what it means. The massacres in Gujarat under Modi are a better (though still poor) example of ethnic cleansing.
For an actual case of ethnic cleansing, see the activities of Hindus and Sikhs against the Muslims of Jammu.
Well, they were threatened with violence unless they left, and now they’re gone. You can argue till the cows come home, but a reasonable person would consider that ethnic cleansing.
They were threatened in the same way Muslims are threatened in India. But incidents of right-wing groups making statements that threaten violence does not equate to ethnic cleansing.
Polls show Kashmiris want the Pandits to return. Its the Indian government that prolongs their self-imposed exile in order to use them for political points (poor Panditz are the troo victimz).
I actually agree with HM (can you believe it?) that “ethnic cleansing” is an appropriate term for what happened to the Pandits. “Genocide” however is not. But my point was that Pandit suffering does not justify Muslim suffering. Too often when Indian nationalists are faced with the facts about what has been done to Kashmiri Muslims over the past 30 years, they turn around and say “What about Pandits?”. This is a species of whataboutary. In any case, it’s not like Indians were supporting Kashmiri independence before the Pandit exodus. It is an unfortunate fact that a nationalist movement assumed a religious color, but that doesn’t make the fundamental grievance illegitimate.
I agree with you that the Jammu massacres are also a prime example of ethnic cleansing.
\This is a species of whataboutary…\
The point is not whataboutery. The point is given this ethnic cleansing and a lot of other violence orchestrated from across the border, the GoI found the present constitutional arrangements and the political class in J&K inadequate to cope with the situation. That is why GoI eviscerated article 370 using article 370 itself.
Right. Like Indians were supporting the Kashmiri Independence movement before the Pandit Exodus? It’s very convenient for you to blame ethnic cleansing and violence across the border for the draconian steps being taken against the people of Kashmir. If there had been no ethnic cleansing, India still wouldn’t have given Kashmir freedom.
You persist in taking a statist position that justifies locking down an entire people. I continue to be surprised at how OK Indian nationalists are with authoritarianism. Twisting your own constitution so that an unelected governor represents the people of Kashmir is quite sketchy.
\ India still wouldn’t have given Kashmir freedom…. You persist in taking a statist position\
“Freedom of Kashmir” valley was never on the cards , in 1947 or now. Otherwise why should Pakistan keep ramping up demand ‘Kashmir banega Pakistan’ . J&K Kingdom pre-47 was a hotch potch of different religions, languages, ethnicities, and the ‘Kingdom’ was sold by the Colonial British govt in the 19th century. That commercial transaction was the origin of J&K kingdom. That is unraveling now. J&K was and is no different than 550 odd principalities which acceded to India.
Any state has the primary – even primordial – reason of maintaining law and order within it’s boundaries and ensuring the safety of it’s citizens. That is it’s justification. Any constitutional provisions can and should work only towards that.
J and K IS different from the other princely states because it is Disputed Territory. Pandit Nehru promised the Kashmiri people a plebiscite. No amount of denying by Indian nationalists will change this fact.
Anyway, it’s nice to see that you are totally OK with locking people up for three weeks without access to communications all in the name of protecting “law and order”. Hopefully, you will never be in a position where your government will feel like doing this to you.
Don’t bother responding. I see your statist position can’t be budged.
\Pandit Nehru promised the Kashmiri people a plebiscite\
I have to disabuse you of the notion that a democratic , parliamentary country like India with checks and balances does not work on “personal promises” made by whoever. Unless big govt decisions are approved by cabinet and passed by the parliament as law, whatever ‘promises’ made are hot air. There is a political-constitutional process which is supreme over personal promises. In any case Nehru made no promises of any sort to Pakistan, don’t know why Pakistanis are agitated about non-existent promises of Nehru to them.
I brought in Balochistan to put it in the context of how Pakistan has been the source of instability in the region and Kashmir is just a small sample of it. Needless to say Pakistan’s actions in Baluchistan or KP or Afghanistan are unconscionable.
People who shed tons of tears for Kashmir don’t conisder Balochis to be human beings who deserve some active sympathy
Saurav
4 years ago
Pakistan talk show on Kashmir(in English) helpful for non hindi folks
Suggestion range to put up a Govt in exile for Kashmir(similar to India did in Bangladesh) , Khalistan and the best part dalits (which Pakistani pronounced as “Daalis” ) ????
If anyone possessing power in the BJP happens to be reading this blog, I have this to say: we all know we’re going into dire straits, and enough ink has been spilled on what needs to be done. History is watching, and it’s up to you whether it will remember the BJP for saving India from brutal agrarian squalor, or for putting indolence and careerism over the country that elected it.
I was disappointed with the lax way in which big time economic crooks were dealt with
BJP came to power in 14 drumming up sky high the so-called 2G scam. Once they came to power they had no interest pursuing it , and no evidence was presented against the main accused A.Raja , the DMK minister in the central cabinet . He was released.
Then Mallya, Nirav Modi, etc.
RBI guv Raghuram Rajan was deselected cuz he wanted to take cudgels against bad corporate loans which by some estimates to the tune of Rs 30,00,000 CRORES.
I thought Modi guv was totally a handmaiden of big time companies which only want to squeeze the country dry and enrich themselves.
If what Ms Dalal says is true, it is very welcome and long overdue.
Like every govt of independent India, the BJP has not figured out how to thread the needle between enforcing rules and promoting entrepreneurship. Like Congress governments of the past, they see more short-term profit in stoking populist anger. Rather than reorienting the bureaucracy towards targeting malefactors in the business community while relaxing the burden on the average businessperson, they mete out punishment indiscriminately and make the day-to-day workings of business onerous for everyone, guilty or innocent. (Demonetization was prompted by a similar mentality.)
Either they don’t know any better or they have figured out that the public can’t be convinced to act in its best long-term interests. Any party that promotes sensible policies will always be out-shouted and out-emoted by someone else.
Saurav
4 years ago
This (Modi’s) BJP would not do any reform which could lead to loss of net political capital. If the Govt is convinced somehow that political capital utilized would return in more political capital (with better economy) , only then the Govt will push that reform. This is the only language they understand. Everything else is short term and “managing” the economy, kicking the can further down the road. Though unlike HMB, I dont think they will let the economy into recession though, they will do enough to just “manage”
In a way they have learnt from their previous avatar where despite dis-investment and better handling of economy, the Vajpayee Govt was voted out. They are like , if people don’t care about economy, why should we care?
H.M. Brough
4 years ago
“‘Howdy Modi’: PM’s community event in Houston next month sold out as over 50,000 register for programme”
Shame, I’m in Texas and I didn’t get to see this. 🙁
Anyways, the natural comparison is between this and the event at Madison Square at the start of the first term. Obviously, some of the sheen has worn off Modi, especially after he didn’t make much headway on economic reform.
But on the other hand, he won some of that luster back with the annulment of 370. That proved that the BJP is not simply “INC + Cows,” that it has a vision for India, and both the means and fortitude to execute on it. Inspiring stuff.
—
Unintentionally hilarious line from the article:
“‘Howdy’, short for ‘How do you do?’, is a friendly greeting commonly used in southwestern United States.”
“Thousands have gone missing in Balochistan since early 2000’s. Hundreds of disappeared persons are found dead on roadsides. ”
The repression of Balochistan has been going on for many decades; The Pakistani govt have amassed thousands of troops, conducted full scale air operations, used helicopter gunships to kill Balochi leadership. The repression has been accelerated after Pakistan has made Chinese full time exploiters of Balochistan and whoever even remotely stood in the way has been disappeared.
What’s your point? Because Pakistan is bad, we Indians are justified in being bad too?
You are defending a government that has put an entire people under lockdown for three weeks and detained even the pro-India leaders.
If you wouldn’t defend Pakistan’s actions in Balochistan, then you shouldn’t be defending India’s actions in Occupied Kashmir. Both are examples of trying to hold people through force instead of consent.
This is how the modern Indian government works, and it looks like (to my despair) the Indian public is absolutely fine with its government penalizing many for the sins of the few.
Kashmir is the latest example, but we had demonetization in 2016, where an entire country’s money supply was confiscated, ostensibly to punish a few malefactors. Our tax department seems to have been going in overdrive, harassing and intimidating lots of people in order to catch a few tax avoiders. These are things that struck at middle India, and middle India not only tolerated them but also celebrated them. So of what consequence is Kashmir, whose Muslims are already unpopular in India because they kicked out the Pandits and persist in separatist activities?
J T
4 years ago
The Indian economy seems to have hit a rough spot. We can argue if Modi’s demonetization and GST were contributing factors. As the world economy slides into recession, India is going to be further impacted. Expect to see more initiatives being pushed by the BJP such as Uniform Civil Code, etc.
The economic crisis will not go unexploited!
BJP blames India’s shortcomings on the (in)actions of the Congress. But unlikely that this will work for very long. Modi has a small window in which to engineer major changes and hope that these changes bear fruit in real terms to the average India. Else, it will be viewed the same as “The Great Leap Forward”…..
Hindus caught on infamous video lynching Muslims acquitted by Rajasthan court, in a shock to the community and rights organizations. But they’re all just a bunch of Marxists and Islamists, so who cares. Jai Hind!
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/video/pehlu-khan-verdict-all-6-accused-acquitted-by-rajasthan-court-1580894-2019-08-14
Ah yes.. the sins of some Hindus are the sins of all Hindus. Does some as yet undiscovered law of sociology prevent libs from applying this pattern to Islam? Or African-Americans?
Nobody is blaming all Hindus, just the Hindu right.
Why call them Right or left? They are criminals who do such things, i.e. go around in groups and kill innocent people. Sadly, the justice administration in India is very creaky. There are perhaps 3.93 million pending cases in India according to this author, some of them pending for years
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/why-pending-court-cases-have-been-going-up-1549859010699.html
This kind of lax justice administration will make a mockery of democracy and keep the society at ground level for a long time.
We need more numbers. By aggregating all reported crime, there may be no point in blaming left or right, but if people who are carrying dead cows (which is an important social function) are indeed being targeted and murdered, that deserves to be called out separately. And treated as a semi-political act.
\And treated as a semi-political act.\
Yes I would like attacking anyone physically or verbally due to religious or racial motivations/reason to be treated separately , as ‘semi-political’ act ?? . Such cases to be fast tracked.
Vast number of pending cases in courts does impact the morale of the police forces. Police does take the cases and their investigation seriously when they are confident their labours will result in some trial and/or conviction , or at the least fair process would be followed.
Why call them Right or left?”
Old Western smear tactic that South Asian progressives have appropriated.
I am confused as to why we label the criminals “Right.” Would that mean we label cattle smugglers as “Left”?
This is always the fig leaf “When I said Jai Hind sardonically, the Hind had an asterisk that only referred to Hindutva wadis”
If I took everyone who tried such linguistic contortions, wired them up to a lie detector and asked them what they think of Hindus, I could make money ALL DAY betting on the outcome. Or not, because no one would bet against me
To modern liberals, Hindus and Jews can do no right. Muslims can do no wrong.
Muslims are criticized far more than Jews or Hindus in the modern period. The bulk of this criticism comes from liberals (whether at the governmental level, human rights organizations, or media).
Its a sign of a cultist mentality when you believe the criticisms of your group are the product of conspiracy.
But you’re the one who said “Hindus,” not even “local Hindus” or “Hindus in _______” or “Hindu Extremists.”
Seems to me like you wanted to make this a thing about “Hindus,” and well, you turned the Open Thread into a flame war.
Congratulations.
Stop with the fake outrage.
I said specifically Hindus in an infamous lynching video were acquitted. This in no way implies all Hindus, unless you believe all Hindus were in this video lynching Muslims.
Another sign of a cultist (Hindu-right) mentality. Reading insult and outrage into everything.
The sins of some Hindus are not the sins of all Hindus just as the sins of some Muslims are not the sins of all Muslims. Yet we see plenty of quite hateful rhetoric towards Muslims on this site. So this standard should be applied to all.
For what it is worth, some of INDTHING’s comments about “Hindus” make me uncomfortable as well. I would prefer that a differentiation is made between Hindutvadis and Hindus just as a distinction should be made between Islamists and normal Muslims.
I don’t think even the BJP party presses use “Muslims” or “Christians” as generic terms when discussing problematic members of those groups.
I quickly checked recent headlines on few of them, and the closest it got was “local Muslims” (OpIndia) in reference to a specific altercation.
You’re free to use whatever language you want, but when you’re going farther than even BJP pravdas, expect to be called out as a propagandist.
INDTHINGS,
Courts must acquit if there is reasonable doubt. How can the accused by convicted in these circumstance?
Marxists and post modernist thought have infiltrated all over the world. These irrational thought pattern memoplexes are one of the largest drivers of lower global total factor productivity and lower global material living standards.
People who kidnap and murder cows (who are treated like family members by their families) are almost never attacked in India—despite 4 million cows being stolen from their families and killed every year. 16 cases a year in a country of 1.4 billion is statistically insignificant.
I am new to this site. Please let me know the rules of this site.
And also let me know how do you stop impersonators from catfishing in this site.
i can see IPs.
the main rule is don’t piss me off.
…and, if you are unclear what to do, just follow the simple rule in the 1st comment under: Taking sides when good and evil are unclear. Welcome aboard, cheers.
This is a fun blog. It took me some time to warm up to it, but now I am fully submerged.
Who would have thought that a blog run by US/UK based non-indians, that too from the “traitorous” pak-bangla heritage, will become a haunt for Hindu nationalists and no-holds-barred Islam bashers. But strange are the ways of the world.
Is the belief that muslims are descendants of foreigners the main reason why some indians hate muslims? Or there are other reasons? Does the skin colour of a muslim matter to them when they hate ? Or do they just hate all?
Just curious. No offence intended.
Syndrome,
The founders of Hindutva (Savarkar etc) expressed the belief that Muslims could not be loyal to India since their holy land is located in the Middle East. This was even before Partition. The animosity with Pakistan has also had a negative impact on India’s Muslims who are sometimes seen as fifth columnists. Recently, Hindutva types also harp on “1000 years of Occupation” and view the Mughals as a foreign occupying force rather than as a dynasty which was substantially Indianized.
Skin color is not really a factor since most Indian Muslims look fairly similar to Hindus (Most of them are descended from converts in any case).
It’s a bit of a stretch to call them substantially Indianized:
1. They never used an Indic language in their courts [ Turkic/Farsi]
2. They never used any local language in their administration [Farsi]
3. Their administrative ranks were certainly not concordant with the ranks of the Hindu empires before them
4. Most of them did indeed enforce the Jizya and have outright contempt and in many cases brutal repression for Hindus
5. The historical questions are over how many temples were destroyed and looted, not whether large numbers of them were. And mosques built in their place.
This Indian Muslim fetish with the Mughals (in many cases) needs to go. They were a brutal, foreign conquering dynasty, and are certainly widely perceived that way.
This Indian Muslim fetish with the Mughals (in many cases) needs to go. They were a brutal, foreign conquering dynasty, and are certainly widely perceived that way.
You must be young, or raised in the diaspora. I was born in India at the end of the ’70s, and until I graduated from high school, the Mughals were very much considered an Indian dynasty. Differentiation was made between good Mughals (like Akbar) and tyrannical Mughals (like Aurangzeb), but besides the knowledge of Babar’s foreign origin, they weren’t really considered foreign.
BTW…most of us, when we were kids, got our historical info from Amar Chitra Katha and the like. I was very interested in history, and a big reader (though too young to read the more comprehensive tomes), and I literally heard about the Babri masjid controversy just before the structure was demolished.
Up to the early 90s, I’d say the Hindutva crowd had miniscule impact on people. Hindutva affiliations were something no one advertised (my dad was briefly an RSS member in his youth, and he never ever mentioned it to me!) It’s only in the past 2-3 decades that their version of India’s past has gained ground, and is probably the dominant view in India today.
It’s not that I’m particularly young (mid 30s). It’s three things in descending order of importance
1. I’m a modernist. So for me, what India used to follow back in the days when it was a fragile post-colonial state led by incompetent Marxists should not and does not proscribe what it ought to follow to build a unifying national narrative. I’ve presented the facts for people to draw their inferences.
2. I grew up in Sikh dominated Punjab where no one will swallow any pabulum about how “Indianized” and “tolerant” the Mughals were. Most hunted the Sikhs with genocidal intent.
3. Modern media and the connectedness of the modern age has shown us what Islamist governments do to their non-muslim minorities, in particular the “people of the book” today! So we have a very vivid description of what Hindu ancestors and Sikh ancestors went through for centuries to complement written sources. Against that the banal exhortations of N.C.E.R.T history books are thin gruel.
Urdu is an indic language and was patronized by the mughals. Bahadur Shah Zafar wrote Urdu poetry. Hindustani classical music developed in mughal courts. They celebrated holi and diwali. After the first generations, many of them had Rajput blood.
You have expressed the BJP view of the Mughals which will never accept them as Indian because they were Muslim. You are entitled to your beliefs but they only reflect a bigoted understanding of history.
First of all, the Mughals did not use Urdu. They used Farsi and Turkic.
Second, the phrase Urdu comes from (zabān-i-)ordū ‘(language of the) camp’ (“Ordu” is a Turkic word). It was the language of the employees of the Mughals. Hardly a ringing endorsement. Add to that the fact that it’s written in semitic script (Arabic and logically flowing right to left).
Third, yes you’re correct. Urdu is an Indian origin language, however it is quite clearly intentionally made Perso-philic or Arab-philic.
So the question the right wing asks is – If you identify so strongly with Persia or Arabia that your very mother tongue takes their script, how Indian are you really? Call it ugly, bigoted, majoritarian or any other thin gruel the internet mojahideen love – however this question deserves an answer.
If the only thing that a lot of Indian Muslims love about India are the things that other Muslims have brought to India – do they even love anything about India?
The last Mughal emperor was literally writing Urdu poetry. That invalidates your point that the Mughals didn’t use Urdu. Urdu is a product of the syncretic Indo-Islamic culture as is Hindustani classical music. Khayal developed at the Mughal courts.
Yes, Urdu is written in Perso-Arabic script. I don’t see why this is a problem. If it was written in Devnagri, it would still be Urdu. Gandhiji had proposed that India’s national language should be Hindustani written in Devnagri. As for efforts to Persianize Urdu, similar efforts have been made to Sanskritize Hindi. That doesn’t change the fact that the language of common people across North India and Pakistan remains mutually intelligible. Pakistanis watch Bollywood without subtitles and barring particular words, have no issues understanding it.
The right wing equates “Indian” with “Hindu” which is a gross misunderstanding of History. Indo-Islamic culture developed in the subcontinent. It was not brought from outside. If you have such a problem with the Mughals, how about you give up the Red Fort and the Taj Mahal? History cannot be reduced to simplistic binaries of “Hindu” vs. “Muslim”.
VijayVan, India should definitely allow large numbers of moderate/liberal/atheist/minority muslims (who are being attacked by Islamists) to move to India. Planning to write on this at some point.
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Syndrome, Indians love immigrants in general. Love immigrants so much some might call it a fetish. Makes some immigrants uncomfortable.
Why would skin color matter?
Do you mean colorism? If so, colorism mostly operates as a socially influenced attribute of physical attractiveness. Darker people ceteris paribus get less invitations to dates and less marriage proposals.
How do you define hate?
Have you been to India? Have you visited the Sufi/Irfan pilgrimage spots in India? Sufis are quite popular among nonmuslims in India. And especially loved by the hard right. Including people depicted in the Western press as “white supremacist”, “Nazi”, “racist” etc.
Sufi, Irfan, liberal and atheist muslims are sometimes criticized by self described “liberals” and “leftists” in India and accused of Islamaphobia. Would you characterize this as hate?
About 80,000 Indians have been killed by Islamist terrorist attacks. Perhaps 20,000 of these were killed by Al Qaeda and Daesh related attacks. Indian Sufi, Irfan, twelver, sixer, Ahmedi, moderate, liberal, athiest muslims are especially targeted by Islamists–including foreign Islamists.
Because of this Indian muslims and Indian nonmuslims have a deep aversion to Islamists.
The Indian aversion to Islamists is not unique. How many countries can you name that don’t dislike Islamists?
To give you an idea of Indian dynamics, an exit poll was taken during the last Indian general election:
——56% of muslims opposed the BJP
——18% of muslims refused to state their position on the BJP or had no position on the BJP
——26% of muslims backed the BJP
Muslims in India are very diverse and varied. And very much integrated into the tapestry. My best guess is that India currently has 230 million muslims.
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Syndrome, can you share more about how various sects of muslims are treated in your home country?
@Kabir i dont think all indians are racially the same and some indians say that some Muslims look different or more caucasoid than hindus…idk
@AnAn so u want to say that those who hate muslims dont hate them for ancestral or racial differences but for religious differences ?
@Kabir i dont think all indians are racially the same and some indians say that some Muslims look different or more caucasoid than hindus…idk
there are no racial differences within ethnic groups.
“About 80,000 Indians have been killed by Islamist terrorist attacks. Perhaps 20,000 of these were killed by Al Qaeda and Daesh related attacks.”
Those figures sound about ten times too big. Source?
India would be delivering a master stroke if it can give asylum to 100 Uygurs and they occasionally put placards in front of Chinese missions. Instead of going to western countries, some of them can come to India.
https://twitter.com/arslan_hidayat/status/1162740864592109571
It would seem that Pakistani military and political elite completely misread Modi and his electoral victory. They figured that Modi and the BJP’s electoral platforms were just window dressing. “Perhaps if the BJP (Bharatiya Janata Party)….wins, some kind of settlement in Kashmir could be reached,” Khan told a small group of foreign journalists in an interview back in April, 2019.
Modi has indeed come up with his own resolution of J&K. This is a logical extension of the decision to disengage with Pakistan as much as possible. The BJP – and many non-BJP elites in India, over the last two decades reached this conclusion after Kargil and the Mumbai attacks. They did not believe that even the Pakistani Army and the ISI could not speak with one voice and they did not have the ability to faithfully carry out any agreement that could be reached.
This is what worries the US as well as it tried to extricate itself from Afghanistan. They are not sure about Pakistani Army (and ISI’s) multifarious objectives and activities.
Isn’t it clear by now that the Pakistani establishment (army/civilian mix) is a multi-headed hydra with an unchanging pair of purposes (primarily, keep the Kashmir dispute alive, and secondarily, maintain a military-jihadi complex to destabilize neighbouring countries as needed)? If any civilian or army leader tries to veer off purpose, they just get replaced pronto and nothing changes.
might be useful to differentiate between *mughals* and *mughal culture*
the latter was part and parcel of indian culture and is separable from a west asian/muslim identity. eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughlai_cuisine#List_of_Mughlai_dishes
I think the same can be said of British culture.
this seems to be a good point. the british were just as racist as the mughals after the 1820s or so (the anglo-indians ditched their delicious cosmopolitan indian cusine for shitty british cuisine).
This may be worth it’s own post but did any of you see Imran Khan’s recent Twitter tirade?
Here’s a link:
https://twitter.com/ImranKhanPTI/status/1162994691266293760
Not sure how to feel about it, but I do have a few thoughts:
– I really dislike how IK is touting and promoting the Nehruvian & Gandhian idea of India. I prefer the Nehruvian & Gandhian idea of India. I prefer Congress to the BJP. But Imran Khan’s promotion of that idea will only hurt liberals in India. The right wing will easily be able to paint the Congress as a the kind of party Pakistanis like or the kind of party that the Pakistan government would like to have in place.
– While I agree with IK on the basics (i.e., unilaterally repealing special status is inconsistent with democratic norms; the lockdown and blackout is a humanitarian concern; Hindutva is a dangerous and exclusionary ideology)… he sounds like some childish Internet troll here. Like one of those online bhakt trolls.
– I wonder what this portends for India – Pakistan relations? I don’t foresee the BJP being elected out for at least a generation now, especially given their tight grip on the Election Commission and most media houses. If you make extreme statements like IK has done… I don’t see how the BJP will be willing to have dialogue and diplomacy after that. Or any Indian government for that matter.
Yeah. Those were my first thoughts. Why is Imran going overboard with the whole hindutva – nazis thing? Like most in India know what type of state pakistan is, but still in diplomatic norms Indian diplomats maintain certain protocols accorded to normal state. I would say that Imran by doing this has burnt bridges even with a future non bjp govt, because anyone non bjp ( even non government )who now engages with Pakistan will now be seen as Pakistan agent.
He is being too clever by half , thinking that attacking just the rss would somehow not affect the opposition to modi, strengthening them . Indian liberal elites for last few decades had tried the same faux differentiation ( Pakistan army and Pakistan people) and lost hopelessly.
All this mean article 370 was much more consequential ( for Pakistani and Kashmiris ) than we in India were let to believe.
Right. Basically,
1) Most people won’t care about this.
2) To the small extent that people do care, the BJP wins. It can say “See? Our Lefties say literally the same stuff as our enemies”!
You can’t really analyse Imran Khan very deeply, the man is the walking personification of a Whatsapp forward.
Day by day I realize that IK is another example of the global right wing nationalist wave, which includes people like Trump, BoJo, Bolsanaro, Modi, etc.
Many diaspora Pakistanis seem to feel strongly that IK doesn’t belong with the others I listed above. But I think people are being duped by his relative charisma and youth.
You make it sound like the BJP is United Russia 2.0 lol.
They have neither the intention nor the competence to be that.
I don’t think the BJP has the competence to improve Indian infrastructure or defense to, say, even China levels, let alone the US, but they have marshalled an extremely effective propaganda machine, based on social media networking and co-opting the vast majority of TV news. Free expression is a mix of dead and useless in India now.
(Public still thinks demonetization was a masterstroke and a sign of courage and decisiveness.)
\ I really dislike how IK is touting and promoting the Nehruvian & Gandhian idea of India.\
Taliban Khan is only discrediting the idea of Pakistan itself. Pakistan was born because Muslim League could not live with Nehru-Gandhi ideas and ideals. Now pining for the same after 70 years makes a mockery of his country, and it’s legitimacy.
Uh no, Pakistan was born because Jinnah and his contemporaries were keenly aware that the Nehruvian fantasy of a secular India for all peoples would give way sooner or later to Hindu Nationalism. Which is exactly what happened.
Uh no, Pakistan was born because Jinnah and his contemporaries were keenly aware that the Nehruvian fantasy of a secular India for all peoples would give way sooner or later to Hindu Nationalism. Which is exactly what happened.
if india had stayed unified 25-30% of the population would be muslim. this may have resulted in a large enough block of ‘non-hindutva’ to prevent this.
we’ll never know cuz the experiment wasn’t run.
Pakistan’s legitimacy is not an issue. It’s been 72 years since we became a sovereign nation-state. No rhetorical arguments are going to change that.
The Muslim League may have had their suspicions about Nehruvian secularism but there is no doubt that it is far preferable to Modi’s Hindutva.
Most probably IM’s twitter account has been taken over by ISI , he is not a master of himself, poor chap
IK has been discredited just as the entire Pakistani Military and Intelligence has been. They did not anticipate Modi having the gumption to take this step on J&K.
They are caught in a major bind. If they overtly and covertly support the disgruntled elements in J&K, it will give India the upper hand in the propaganda war and may even bring on retaliation from India. I don’t think Pakistan wants a hot war. its economy is too precarious and most importantly this will jeopardize the payoff that will likely come Pakistan’s way if the US is able to withdraw from Afghanistan without paying a steep price. This Afghan deal is now in jeopardy as J&K takes center stage.
OTOH, not taking a tough position on Modi’s action risks IK and Pakistani Army being discredited before the Pakistani public and more importantly in the eye of the jihadi elements that have been nursed for so long.
So IK and the Pakistani military will have to walk a fine line here. Talk the tough talk but do nothing that could get out of control.
In addition, IK was brought to power by the Pakistani Army, so he has to make sure that he is perfectly aligned with his handlers. IK and the Pakistani Army speaking of Nehruvian and Gandhian ideals is hogwash and does not pass any smell test.
There really is no deal to be had right now between India and Pakistan. India has been shunning Pakistan for the last few years, and is not about to provide any opening that could serve as a propaganda victory for IK and the Pakistani Army.
One way that Pakistan could pressure India is through China. But China also has its hands full with the Hong Kong protests. In addition China does not wish to encourage a conflict between India and Pakistan which drags “Azad” Kashmir and Gilgit & Baltistan into the mix. If India is able to strike these area with impunity, that raises a big question mark on the security of CPEC.
The issue is not Pakistan. I agree Pakistan cannot do very much about Indian-held Kashmir other than raise the issue at international forums.
However, how can anyone of good conscience defend putting Kashmiris under lockdown and removing all communication tools? Do you seriously think this is going to win hearts and minds? When the lockdown is eventually lifted, what is stop anger from coming out on the streets again? Pakistan will continue to fan the flames of the domestic Kashmiri insurgency because it can. The best way to stop it from doing so is to not take such draconian steps in the first place.
India can act in Kashmir the way Israel acts in Palestine. Sure, the international community can’t do anything but anyone who thinks that the Kashmiris, like the Palestinians, will stop fighting for their freedom is kidding themselves.
Sometimes I wonder if China is on even shakier ground than India as a state. Most states have a core national identity. If Han is China’s identity, I guess most appropriate core identity for India will be Hinduism.
To the best of my knowledge Hindus in any part of India are not revolting to secede from India. OTOH, Hong Kong people are openly shouting for “freedom”. Media reports say barely 10% Hong Kong people identify themselves as Chinese.
Also, the fellow Han Chinese country Taiwan shows no inclination to join the mainland.
And we have not even started talking about non-Han people like Tibetans and Uighurs.
I think Chinese leadership needs some deep thinking about their country’s future.
OTOH, Hong Kong people are openly shouting for “freedom”. Media reports say barely 10% Hong Kong people identify themselves as Chinese.
hong kong is atypical due to its unique british heritage (also, the cantonese dialect is dominant and that makes it distinct from the mainland where mandarin is much more normative).
Also, the fellow Han Chinese country Taiwan shows no inclination to join the mainland.
why would they? they are rich and free. like singapore.
also, it is important to note that many of the leaders of the protest movement are from hong kong’s christian minority. they have some ‘skin in the game.’
92% of the population of the PRC is han. this is an underestimate because ppl have an incentive to identify as an ethnic minority due to affirmative action (none of the 15 million manchu speak manchu anymore, it’s a dead language, and most are basically han though they have some manchu ancestry).
your comment seems to lack an awareness of the nature of han ethnicity or its long association with a unitary state. the problem with PRC is that it has economic/demographic headwinds due to one-child policy, and its strategy of mollifying the middle-class with economic growth. if the growth stops and china stagnates they’ll have to get seriously totalitarian i assume….
(the uyghur and tibet situation are different, as those regions have not even historically been part of china)
Hey Razib —
“also, it is important to note that many of the leaders of the protest movement are from hong kong’s christian minority. they have some ‘skin in the game.’”
I’m curious about your source for this? AFAIK, there is no discernible leader for the current protests, although on telegram groups there are some members that clearly much more active than others but that’s about as far as anyone I’ve spoken to knows.
i’m on a conservative channel where a bunch of catholics are talking about this. they apparently know the affiliations. the 2014 was well known to have had a lot of xtians https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3015622/hong-kongs-christians-attend-extradition-bill-protests-good
Thanks for that — particularly the info from the grapevine. Complicates the narrative of those trying to refute the CPC talking points.
Fwiw locals are starting to have serious concerns about the editorial independence of the South China Morning Post (linked article) since their purchase by the Alibaba group a few years ago. I first started to notice something was off during the coverage of the ’17 Doklam standoff.
What this shows is simply that Han Chinese are happy to be part of a country that looks toward future success and prosperity (which includes the kinds of freedoms the HKers are fighting for) whereas Hindus are content to be part of a country that wallows in prehistoric pastoral nostalgia, future be damned.
(Treat this is a rant)
South Asian societies are not remotely capable of achieving the kind of prosperity China has, so no point worrying about that stuff.
South Asian societies are not remotely capable of achieving the kind of prosperity China has
I think Sri Lanka can hit 6-7K/GDP per capita in a decade.
With high HDI etc is not a bad place to live as a middle or low income person.
https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&idim=country:MYS:LAO:IDN&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:MYS:IDN:LKA:IND:CHN&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false
I think the plateau will be Malaysian standard of living. We dont work hard or motivated enough to go beyond that.
Why do you expect China’s level of prosperity without taking their political system in mind? You can’t have the best of both worlds. China’s ability to do anything is heavily dependent on their political system. Give them democracy and see the whole thing unravel.
Someone joked on twitter that the best way for China to deal with HK protesters is to take them to India for a week. Once they are back they will abandon all crazy ideas about democracy.
Democracy does not mean bureaucracy, regulations and lassitude. If they exchanged political systems, China would be further ahead of where It is now and India worse off.
But democracy does mean you have to be (more) responsive to what your people want. In the case of India, that means farmers wanting more subsidies, labor groups demanding higher minimum wages, local leaders wanting you to invest in particular places, and so on.
China doesn’t have to deal with any of that, and can focus single-mindedly on development. It doesn’t matter what color the cat is for them…Indians have a lot more specifications for their kitty.
Of course China would be destroying India in every universe because of its superior human capital and infrastructure, but the race could have been a bit closer.
I think that even if China stagnates it need not go more totalitarian. It has enough unified identity.( 92 percent in more than enough ) , a superpower foe ( which helps unity building), and enough money in the bank to mollify the middle class. Of course it’s external plans take a bit of hit and it might have to for sometime take internal actions
For all the Tibet , xianyang and Hong Kong problems( all 3 problems are exaggerated in terms of problems for China I feel ) In the larger scheme of things China has “managed” them better than India has. For all the hue and cry on Hong Kong I feel if China sends in the army , it’s ready to take a diplomatic hit and that would be the end of the story.
tibet is more about pride than substance. they could let it go (most tibetans actually live outside of the autonomous region in qinghai and sichuan). it’s kind of like kashmir is to india.
xinjiang is different, as it has some resources and geostrategic relevance. but the han chinese hae already taken over dzhungaria, which was never inhabited by many muslims in the first place (they killed all the dzunghar mongols).
I think China expends less energy on Tibet than India does in Kashmir. Once the Lama dies whatever residue movement is there will peter out, and it will become totally part of China. India will give Lama’s follower citizenship and that would be end of it. I would still not say that Tibet is that inconsequential though. It keeps in check its regional foe (India), and India’s water come from there , a useful future tool to coerce India.
Dont know that much about Xiangyang’s Geo political thing, considering i always felt that the whole central asian connectivity which China is doing is a bit of overkill. The ROI i feel is not there. Out of all the projects i feel this area is perhaps in biggest danger of sunken cost for China.
Once the Lama dies whatever residue movement is there will peter out, and it will become totally part of China.
no, tibetans are going to be the majority for the foreseeable future. non-tibetan women have horrible miscarriage rates at altitude, and non-tibetans just don’t like living in Lhasa for long term cuz of the elevation. dalai lama is actually kind of a dove.
i think tibet will be a long-term problem because they can’t easily demographically swamp the autonomous province (they already did that in qinghai).
Dont know that much about Xiangyang’s Geo political thing, considering i always felt that the whole central asian connectivity which China is doing is a bit of overkill. The ROI i feel is not there. Out of all the projects i feel this area is perhaps in biggest danger of sunken cost for China.
their goal is to get rail & road transport to go from xian in china proper all the way to europe. it will be more $ than water, but much faster. probably feasible for value-added goods. xinjiang is a significant fraction of the distance. going through kazakhan, and russia, they can make it the EU. that’s the goal. but agree it’s a ‘long view’
Tibet is the largest source freshwater repository on the planet between the two Poles. Source of the Yellow River, Yangtze, Mekong, Salween, Sutlej and the Brahmaputra.Vital for China to keep as water dries up in Asia and becomes the likely impetus for future wars over the next decades.
https://www.theglobalist.com/tibet-and-21st-century-water-wars/
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Water-shortages-could-trigger-Asia-conflicts
Tibet is the third largest repository of freshwater in the world and the source of nine major Chinese and Indian rivers. Wars will be fought over water in South Asia in the near future.
https://www.theglobalist.com/tibet-and-21st-century-water-wars/
The single-minded focus on development has left China with a debt mountain that will hobble their growth for years to come. The lack of democratic accountability helped give it the one-child policy meaning large parts of China will be old well before they become rich. And it also resulted in massive amounts of environmental degradation. The economic growth is probably cold comfort to Chinese farmers who were forced to give up their homes since they were inconveniently in the path of a development project.
China would have done well if it took a more balanced and accountable path to development. There is a reason large segments of the Chinese middle class have moved to Australia, the US, Canada etc. They would rather not be railroaded by the ChiCom machine.
So the question the right wing asks is – If you identify so strongly with Persia or Arabia that your very mother tongue takes their script, how Indian are you really? Call it ugly, bigoted, majoritarian or any other thin gruel the internet mojahideen love – however this question deserves an answer.
the fixation on script is weird. i get the point, but vietnam and mongolia have changed scripts in the past hundred years or so and they’re still who they are. the *reason* is the key.
“the fixation on script is weird.”
The point is, Urdu is defined by its script to a large extent. If Urdu were to be written in nagari script, it would be Hindi. (OK, this is somewhat simplistic take, but essentially true.)
The whole 1860s hindi-urdu controversy which caused the permanent schism between the two languages was about the script. Before the formal adoption of different scripts by both languages, there was no firm dividing line between the two languages. They were generally seen as a single language called Hindustani. So in many ways it was the script which formalized Urdu.
Urdu written in roman letters is still Urdu. Changing script doesn’t change the language.
Hindi-Urdu is one language (Hindustani). Hindi and Urdu are standardized registers.
If you look at Duolingo’s Hindi lessons for example, it is basically the same as Urdu. OK, the days of the week have different names and some vocabulary is different (“”svasth” instead of “tandroost” for “healthy”) but the main issue is simply learning to read the Devnagari script.
@Kabir
I’ve heard that Urdu in Pakistan has been increasingly Arabized. What are your thoughts on that? Is it even noteworthy? Is it true?
FWIW I’ve really come to respect your views. Especially compared to INDTHINGS (with all due respect).
The State has promoted a more Persianized Urdu but the language of the common person would still be understood by the average North Indian. There has been a phenomenon where “Khuda Hafiz” has been replaced by “Allah Hafiz” primarily because “Khuda” is seen as a neutral term for God while Allah is the specifically Islamic God. And some people have started saying “Jazak Allah” instead of “shukriya” for thank you. But by and large the Urdu spoken is still closer to Hindustani.
“Jazak Allah” ,“tandroost”
LOL, I just love you Kabir. It has been a long time i have heard this words. You are a good man . And “Jazak Allah ” is just too good.
There is an easy way to decide just how comprehensible Urdu is to Indians. Listen to the innumerable youtube videos presenting Pakistani TV shows (news, sports, plays, interviews.) Pay particular attention to the diction and speech of regular folks when they are interviewed.
Try reading Ghalib, Faiz, other contemporary poets. (check out urdupoetry.com, for instance)
Now do the same for Hindi TV and poetry.
Never ask someone else what the weather is when you can just step outside your house and check for yourselves.
A quick lowdown on the occupation of Balochistan by Pakistan
https://nation.com.pk/05-Dec-2015/how-balochistan-became-a-part-of-pakistan-a-historical-perspective
“It should be noted that the Balochistan Assembly had already rejected any suggestion of forfeiting the independence of Balochistan on any pretext.
To say that the Baloch have been ill-treated by all governments and military establishments since their land was illegally and forcefully taken over would be an understatement.”
Compare that to Kashmir , where the Accession to India was legal and included the whole territory of J&K kingdom , part of which is occupied by Pakistan illegally.
I know we want to use Balochistan as a cudgel to beat Pakistan when they talk about Kashmir, but it’s not very forward-looking. From what I’ve read, the locals who want independence/autonomy are pretty backward and tribal, and have practices that would be repugnant to most of us. The Pakistani regime there is, believe it or not, more progressive than a purely local one would be.
Isn’t this what we think about Kashmir too? That it will turn into a medieval Islamic state, maybe Taliban-like if not ISIS-like, if we leave?
\Pakistani regime there is, believe it or not, more progressive than a purely local one would be\
Pakistan is trying hard to impose Taliban on Afghanistan , which is going to drag to even more medievalism and even more misery on Afghanistan; Pakistan has kept the tribalism in KyberPukhtunwa intact and cynically use Pashtoons as a jihad fodder against India and Afghanistan. In fact Pakistan has used Taliban, JaisheMohammed and other jihadi outfits to hammer secular nationalism or sub-nationalism in Balochistan , NWFP and Sindh and Afghanistan.
Pakistani regime is hardly progressive – otherwise it would have killed secularists in NWFP or even Balochistan
That we think that we can do anything for Balochistan while struggling to “handle” Kashmir, says a lot about how India doesn’t live in a real world, but some make believe one.
First of all the Baloch are a minority in their own province. And from that half of them roughly are with the state.Second they are as Islamist (not withstanding their foreign educated tribal leaders) as their pashutns brethren. They espouse supposedly progressive values because that irks Pakistan (just like Kashmiri islamist vs secular India). Oldest trick in the book, to fight the establishment , become what they are not.In Pakistan it means becoming secular, progressive etc, even though you dont believe in it.
Finally to India, we are glorified IAS babus who man the post for RAW and all. This is not a Bollywood movie. We dont expect them to fix the economy and infrastructure of our country, but somehow we want them to become MOSSAD over night. LOL. Pakistan at least has army folks for ISI (who have some idea) which is still better than a civilian who is more interested in getting the next promotion and get a private job once they retire.
Balochistan is not a Disputed Territory. No Pakistani leader ever went to the UN and promised the Baloch people a plebiscite.
Islamabad does need to address the legitimate grievances of the Baloch but this is truly an “internal matter” of Pakistan. Kashmir would be India’s “internal matter” if the territory wasn’t in dispute. Pakistan has no stake in Manipur or Nagaland, so we don’t involve ourselves in those issues. Similarly, Balochistan has nothing to do with India.
You throw stone on someone’s house and break the windows . So it becomes a disputed property – ah nice logic.
new podcast. 2+ hours with mukunda on lots of topics
https://www.patreon.com/posts/mukunda-joins-29276395
“(Public still thinks demonetization was a masterstroke and a sign of courage and decisiveness.)”
I agree with you that free speech is dead in India thanks in large part to the BJP.
But what’s shocking to me is that there are even diaspora Indians in countries where free speech is still respected (like US / Canada) who still strongly feel that demonetization was good.
Sometimes people are just dumb and stubborn.
Nobody has answered my question yet.
As a researcher,i am asking the question again.
So,the hindu-muslim problem in South Asia has nothing to do with race or ethnicity and it is mostly religious?
And you ppl do not care about the race or ancestry or ethnicity of a person when you hate him for religious differences?
@razib khan no,i have noticed racial differences within people of the same ethnolingual group
Cheers☺
@razib khan no,i have noticed racial differences within people of the same ethnolingual group
what you notice irrelevant. unless muslims convert out of specific caste/jati then there is no genetic difference. we have plenty of data.
No i am not talking about religious groups. I am talking about all the members of the ethnicity in general…btw pls share those data with source if u wish.
It is hard to believe that ppl can hate solely on a religious basis for whatever the reason be. Subcontinent is interesting.
no people can also hate based on lies about descent from ” inherently superior” arabs, turks, persians, and don’t forget most importantly, Alexander’s army.
read the tag “genetics” for this blog. don’t comment about this until u r done.
Syndrome, if i’ve understood your question properly, I’d say that religion is only symbolic of a civilizational difference. There’s no theological debate and the most ardent hindutva-ite doesn’t get riled up or offended by abrahamic conceptions of the divine. India has hundreds of competing caste/jaati/ethnic groups, hinduism is a loose syndicate comprising most of these, but sunni islam is a significant and very coherent minority. In the mind of a common islamophobe/islamoskeptic, muslims are the most intransigent of castes. Their end game is at odds with the nationalist project of a strong civilizational state, and along with christians and marxists they undermine the leadership of the hindu elites. A lot of liberals don’t feel compelled to bat for muslims because they see them as hopelessly regressive when it comes to gender and lifestyle issues, and put somewhat less emphasis on free thinking.
As much as exogenous origins are used as a cudgel against indian islam in the savarkarite discourse, I don’t think that a more west asian phenotype would intensify one’s dislike towards muslims, if anything it may soften it. What does rile up some people are a sea of burqas and men with trousers hemmed at the mid-shin, and the feeling that there is a parallel society that is immune to any broader influences.
In the common understanding, theres a tiny muslim elite, a proportionally small middle class, and a vast underclass. Unfortunately, much contempt is reserved for the last category (the least foreign looking), and they are considered unclean by many, particularly vegetarians. Vegetarian hindus, who are largely self-segregated, are the most influential and urbanized section of the population and dominate commerce and have a strong legacy in public administration.
Finally, the hindu-muslim dynamic is different in every region and these crude generalizations don’t characterize islamo-skepticism everywhere. Uttar pradesh, Kerala, and Assam are all very different.
So,the hindu-muslim problem in South Asia has nothing to do with race or ethnicity and it is mostly religious?
And you ppl do not care about the race or ancestry or ethnicity of a person when you hate him for religious differences?
This is by no means unusual. Yugoslavs had (have?) the same neuroses: Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks.
I’d mention Northern Ireland too but I’m not sure if the Protestants in Ulster (most descended from Scots, I believe) are genetically distinguishable from their Catholic neighbors. Visually, they look quite similar to me.
“And you ppl do not care about the race or ancestry or ethnicity of a person when you hate him for religious differences? ”
Who says we hate each other. All brown people are brothers. Go away foreigner.
Yep, we are! Go away!
@scorpion eater what u are saying is not completely true for sure but it is really good if u don’t hate. Who knows may be i am white/brown/black etc or may be someone near u. U never know?
@girmit so religious hatred is a bit like caste hatred or may be mainly because “muslims eat” meat?
Syndrome, can you tell us what is your position related to few things: Jihad, kill infidels, sharia law, taqiyya, 77 virgins, underage sex, leaving the movement or converting? Txs.
Well milan u r assuming that Syndrome is a muslim…i dont know if your assumption is true or false..since somehow i am a muslim i will try to answer. i dont have any position on these things or i am quite like neutral since these are not the basics of islam. Most Muslims usually dont care about these things. But if u insist:
1.jihad should not be against civilians and it should be only for defence purpose.
2. I have many non muslim friends who are doing fine in my muslim country and islam doesn’t necessarily tell u to kill infidels. At least vast majority of muslims literally believe that islam is peaceful. The apparently violent verses are all about context.
3. I dont think most muslim countries have sharia law and i (like majority muslims )dont even know what these laws are and what are the sources of such law. However religion must not be politically enforced on ppl as it will take them away from the religion.
4. Never heard of Taqiyya. So i searched google. It seems like that it is mostly a shia philosophical concept and not exactly religious.
5. 72 virgins,not 77. Well,personally i think that 1 partner is more fun but i am ok with 72 ?since it is a matter of Afterlife so i dont see any problem here.
6. It is very stupid to assume that a muslim or person of any religion will see everything from a religious view point. Personally(not from religious viewpoint),i think that underage marriage is OK if both person have consent and marriage should be the percondition for sex. In texas the minimum age for marriage is 14.
7. I personally will not support leaving islam since it may create mental and social unrest in the long run. But i know someone who has left islam and i am fine with it. People lose themselves but they find it all.
It is a great thing if people convert to islam willingly. I know a few examples. but they must not be forced bcz u cannot just make someone believe something by force.
Also,I am writing from a secular perspective and not from a religious perspective about the good sides of islam:
1.zakat (poor tax) is obligatory which can play a significant role to eradicate poverty.
2. this religion can strongly influence (May be this religion is one of the strongest ) a person as it is obligatory to pray at least 5 times a day,fast 1 month a year starting from dawn to dusk
3. It is difficult for a person to leave the religion after entering it because of fear of afterlife and also because of some of its rituals
4. it includes perfect punishment for crimes that can lessen crimes to a great extent (for example, death sentence for rape)
5. This religion suggests not to do racial/ethnic/caste discrimination. Last prophet of this religion said in his farewell speech,”All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor does a black have any superiority over white except by piety and good action.”(source : Sahih Mslm,Tirmizi etc.)So it can ultimately remove /lessen certain discriminations
6. this religion had been the influence for creation of diverse strong and longlasting empires
7. Maintaining inner peace just like other religions
8. It can help to escape moral dilemmas by fixing certain rules just like many other religions
9. its certain ceremonies like eid ul adha can boost up the economy
10. not being charitable for the able ones is considered a sin in this religion.it says that a non-charitable person would be punished after death. so, by provoking charity it can ultimately help the betterment of the society
11.Alcohol and probably also addictive substances are prohibited.it can increase productivity and lessen crimes including murdering someone unconsciously
12. it criticizes(and may be forbids) forced marriage of women. it has fixed the highest number a man could marry (probably no other religion fixed this)
13.By regularly giving Azan regularly 5 times(a kind of loud recitation of short verses for a few minutes), its external existence prevails
But,may be most of its followers don’t follow it completely (yes they follow to a great extent but also ignores to a great extent). and many have misconceptions regarding this religion
I usually dont care but since u r asking:
1. Jihad should not be waged against civilians and should be for defence purpose.
2. Islam doesn’t necessarily say to kill infidels. The verses are all about context. At least vaat majority of Muslims literally believe that islam is peaceful.
3. Never heard of taqiyya. So searched google. It seems that it is a matter of shia philosophy and not exactly religious
4. 72 virgins, not 77. I personal think that 1 partner is more fun but OK with 72 ?. It is about afterlife. So its ok.
5. Most muslims like me probably dont know about sharia law,its source and dont care. Most muslim countries dont have the sharia law. I think that religion should not be politically imposed bcz it may turn ppl away from the religion and discourage ppl to be with Islam.
6. I personally(not from religious view point) think that underage marriage is ok only if both sides give consent. But most ppl i know will probably oppose. I think marriage should be the precondition for sex. In Texas minimum age for marriage is 14
7. Converting ppl peacefully is ok. I personally know some examples of conversion. You cant just make someone believe something by force.
8. I will oppose leaving the religion since it may create mental and familial unrest. I know a person who left the religion and i am fine with such ppl as long as they are decent. People lose themselves but they find it all
Most Hindus eat meat as well, but in public spaces they genuflect to chaste upper caste notions of purity. Muslims are less likely to do this I suppose. Muslim neighborhoods buzz with a lot of petty trade activity, like automotive shops, welding, and scrap dealers, fruit wholesalers, and butchers, particularly in peninsular India. There’s a certain messy economic independence that might be interpreted as effrontery.
Here’s another armchair hypothesis, villainizing Islam is necessary to consolidate hindus, who otherwise are too diverse to forge a genuine nationality around.
@girmit u are one of the few sane persons here who give proper replies.
Btw i thought that majority indians dont care about caste unless it comes to marriage. And are the muslims (poor ones) hated also for caste issues?
@milan i have no position rn. But, contrary to popular non-muslim beliefs, muslims i know aren’t that extreme and they care little about those things. They have non muslim friends and they do fine with them. I want to study islam, hinduism and other religions. It is stupid to believe that a religious person will always see things from a religious viewpoint.
I am writing from a secular perspective about my current understanding of islam and not from a religious perspective:
1.zakat (poor tax) is obligatory which can play a significant role to eradicate poverty.
2. this religion can strongly influence (May be this religion is one of the strongest ) a person as it is obligatory to pray at least 5 times a day,fast 1 month a year starting from dawn to dusk
3. It is difficult for a person to leave the religion after entering it because of fear of afterlife and also because of some of its rituals
4. it includes perfect punishment for crimes that can lessen crimes to a great extent (for example, death sentence for rape)
5. This religion suggests not to do racial/ethnic/caste discrimination. Last prophet of this religion said in his farewell speech,”All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor does a black have any superiority over white except by piety and good action.”(source : Sahih Mslm,Tirmizi etc.)So it can ultimately remove /lessen certain discriminations
6. this religion had been the influence for creation of diverse strong and longlasting empires
7. Maintaining inner peace just like other religions
8. It can help to escape moral dilemmas by fixing certain rules just like many other religions
9. its certain ceremonies like eid ul adha can boost up the economy
10. not being charitable for the able ones is considered a sin in this religion.it says that a non-charitable person would be punished after death. so, by provoking charity it can ultimately help the betterment of the society
11.Alcohol and probably also addictive substances are prohibited.it can increase productivity and lessen crimes including murdering someone unconsciously
12. it criticizes(and may be forbids) forced marriage of women. it has fixed the highest number a man could marry as polygamy was a common ancient practice (probably no other religion fixed this)
13.By regularly giving Azan regularly 5 times(a kind of loud recitation of short verses for a few minutes), its external existence prevails
But,may be most of its followers don’t follow it completely (yes they follow to a great extent but also ignores to a great extent). and many have misconceptions regarding this religion
Waiting for Syndromes’ reply, I was expecting to witness the miracle – to see the first muslim (you are?) to denounce jihad, kill infidels, sharia, taqiyya, conversion, 77 virgins. It could be a one-line statement – all previous are in a range of primitive barbaric (kill infidels) to primitive moronic (77). Now, I see that you are a Bengali (?) i.e. a softer Islamic version in comparison to Paks. You blew this chance, but you will get another one. So far, the most radical (i.e. liberal) assertion here on previous was – I, myself, have never screamed ‘kill infidels’. Such positions (maybe because of fear?) compromise the whole movement and reiterate the conclusion that the term – muslim liberal – is an oxymoron.
LoL. Syndrome is a desi person, and a muslim to boot. He is probably located in subcontinent (tho i don’t have his IP, someone with the knowledge of his/her IP can easily geo-locate him).
But he is a well meaning person. Kind of a more provincial version of Kabir.
Syndrome, you will be fine here. And no, Hindus don’t hate all Muslims. They are just being more-than-usual outspoken in the anonymity of the Internet.
his IP is out of dhaka!
Well said, Scorpio.
Let us wage jihad on these mlecchas.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thewire.in/politics/jammu-kashmir-article-370-sad-punjab/amp/
This is intensely racialized. The motivations aren’t just Sikh history of supporting federalism, due to hot and cold moments with Punjab independence calls.
Many Sikhs on quora are complaining that immigrant Biharis and Uppites are mixing with their youth thus diluting their “aryan” features. Some of it is their own fault with selective female abortions and the resulting imbalanced gender ratios leading men to “import” brides from UP and Bihar.
The irony of it all is that it was the Sikhs (under Ranjit Singh) who conquered Kashmir for India (as it would turn out.) If that hadn’t happened, the valley may well have been an Afghan province today. (And Jammu would be part of Punjab, and Ladakh, as part of Tibet, under the Chinese jackboot.)
And the Sikhs weren’t nice to the Kashmiri Muslims during their rule. Cow slaughter was banned, azaan in the mosques was banned, tax rates were exorbitant.
Well what Pakistan got as NWFP was just Sikh controlled Afghanistan
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.outlookindia.com/website/amp/world-news-pro-khalistan-sikhs-hold-protest-with-pakistanis-outside-un-on-kashmir/336362
Strangely some of these Khalistanis are as brown and “Indian looking” as me
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiatoday.in/amp/news-analysis/story/kashmir-curious-case-of-demographic-realities-and-perceptions-1582376-2019-08-19
Ironically, POK is the one to go through demographic change heavily from Shia and local to Urdu and Punjabi sunni
a new india genetics paper will drop in weeks. heard through grapevine a specific date
What was odd to me was the divergence in steppe levels in some groups like Jats and Khatris in the C S Asia paper and Narsimha 2018 one.
I also think these groups are more diverse than people think. Anecdotally, I see more “atypical” individuals do ancestry testing. And while phenotype doesn’t equal genotype, the two of course are not mutually exclusive. I think that is some of source of dissonance between frequently put forth anthrogenica tabulations based on Harrapa world results and other calculators and the papers that tend to come out.
Well in that case RIP, Out of India theory. It was fun while it lasted 😛
i think OIT is pretty insensitive to new data at this point ;-( not sure how many new samples there are going to be (perhaps JR knows?)
@Razib
I believe two groups among hindus have highest steppe component, namely north indian brahmins and jats. Can the genetic software tools give the date of the steppe admixture event for both these groups?
Basically, what I am trying to get at is that is it possible that while brahmins may have got their steppe blood from the original aryan migrants, Jats may the descendants of the Hun/Scythian incursion into India around 300-600 AD?
The reason I suspect this is because we know that there was large scale migration from central asia into India during Hun/Scythian period. Since these tribes eventually merged into the general mass of Hindus, it would make sense that they would leave a genetic imprint. If we can date the admixture events accurately, it can verify the old hypothesis that jats and rajputs are descendants of these central asian tribes.
I believe two groups among hindus have highest steppe component, namely north indian brahmins and jats.
i could double-check, but i think jatts are higher.
the general steppe admixture is ~4,000 years ago with huge confidence interval last i checked. the issue is if the extra dosage was small, it would be hard to detect. usually admixture dates are for the more recent…but if jatts are steppe+indian with steppe, might be hard.
i don’t know if this idea of large-scale migration for jats. but it’s not crazy going on genetics alone as it was 10 years ago
My two cents for the high steppe agricultural and herding tribes of the NW
It seems like they were on the edge of S Asia and migrated for whatever reason after the caste hierarchy was already established. I don’t think it is “Central Asia” in the traditional sense but more of the NWFP area in modern day Pakistan. I think they are almost like Pashtuns pre-Caucasian population admix that migrated deeper into subcontinent and mixed a bit with locals.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-11357-9
Ancient DNA and isotope dating used to trace skeletal remains in Roopkund lake, 5000m above sea level in Uttarakhand, to three population groups. Most are similar to modern Indians, and some samples similar to modern eastern-Mediterraneans and south-east asians.
“his IP is out of dhaka!”
🙂
his (or may be her) writing style, and warm-fuzzy view of islam was a dead giveaway.
Re: Jats
I wrote in details before, now very briefly. What WIKI says:
“ Today, the merger of the two nations (‘MT: Swedes and Gaets’) is complete, as there is no longer any tangible identification in Götaland with a Geatish identity, apart from the common tendency of people living in those areas to refer to themselves as västgötar (West Geats) and östgötar (East Geats). The city Göteborg, known in English as Gothenburg, was named after the Geats (Geatsburg or fortress of the Geats), when it was founded in 1621….
… Until 1973 the official title of the Swedish king was King of the Swedes, the Geats/Goths and the Wends (with the formula “Sveriges, Götes och Vendes konung”. The title “King of the Wends” was copied from the Danish title, while the Danish kings called themselves “King of the Gotlanders” (which, like “Geats”, was translated into “Goths” in Latin) were also used by Danish royalty. The WENDS is a term normally used to describe the Slavic peoples who inhabited large areas of modern east Germany and Pomerania.
The titles, however, changed when the new king Carl XVI Gustaf in 1973 decided that his royal title should simply be King of Sweden. The disappearance of the old title was a decision made entirely by the king. The old title in Latin was “N.N. Dei Gratia, Suecorum, Gothorum et VANDALORUM Rex. ” (end of citation)
Well, Slavic people did not exist before the 7th c.AC, there were only Serbs, i.e. Wends (remember: Wends-Veneti-Venezia-vendare-vending machines!). I also wrote about culturally advanced Serbian tribe Vandals (remember Djerba i.e. Serba island in Tunisia) who practiced Aryanism.
And, finally, as I wrote before, some of these Gaets i.e. (Massa-Geats) i.e. Hets i.e. Goths came to SA and some of their descendants are Jats. Some Hets previously fought Egyptian pharos (Ramses, Sestrosis) what was written on their tombstones. Small world, isn’t it?
Razib
Had a question
Where does this idea that both Jats and Gujjars as pretty late entrant to the subcontinent come from? Some folks say even rajputs are from outside. Is it because pre 7th century there is hardly mention about these groups in the texts? If that’s the case one could say even Marathas are foreign considering there is hardly much mention till their rise in 16th-17th century.
I am a bit skeptical on the whole Khazar-Gujjar or Synthican-Jats thing. Both Khazar and Synthian seem to be pretty distant from the subcontinent and if there was these mass migration after Mauryan period we would have atleast some texts recording it.
There could be two possibility that either the Jats,Gujjars with higher steppe (than normal) came with the other same people during the initial migration or they were folks of the intermixing of Greco-Indian Kingdoms of the western India, which Gupta finally defeated and then because of them coming into the “Hindu” fold started getting recorded in the texts, which was interpreted as people coming from outside. I would also discount the White Huns because they were present only for a century in those areas.
What’s your view?
I am a bit skeptical on the whole Khazar-Gujjar or Synthican-Jats thing.
gujjar are not any different from other punjabis. so don’t believe.
i don’t know what’s going on with jats. the scythian model seems implausible. but it turns out some of the jats are among the most “ANI-cline” shifted south asians, as much as kalash. but they are right in the middle of punjab. and not brahmins obv.
if i had to bet i think something late that is ‘afghan-like’ came into s. asia before 1000 AD, and contributed to the jats.
note: the term ‘Scythian’ is from ‘Saka’ right? these are an iranian group originally, and from central asia. some had interactions with chinese.
Did I say that any scientific paper not refereeing Lepenski Vir and Vinca is about worthless? Yes, I think, I did.
Well, New York Times had yesterday an article about Lepenski Vir. I was expecting that sooner or later they must come there. There are few information, few speculations, unavoidable Reich. I will make my comment but there are an excerpt from the article, about LV figurines:
NY Times: “The farmers did not bring them with them. The hunter-gatherers did not make them before the farmers came. They did not spread to the rest of Europe.
I have on my desk now replicas of two of the heads that I picked up when I visited the museum at Lepenski Vir. I look at them and I feel a muddled kinship to the artists, the departed souls, the sturgeon. I too would like to know the answer to what I believe is their question.
How did this happen to me?
But I tell them what I told my son. I have absolutely no idea.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/20/science/archaeology-europe-migration.html
@ Syndrome
I’m curious about your opinions, since I think that within the Bangladeshi context you are probably part of the educated elite and also reasonabe.
From your daily experience, would you say that there are a lot of Hindus in Dhaka/Bangladesh? Do you interact with them often? Or have they become a very small, almost invisible group?
What do you think of Bangladeshi Hindus? Do you see them as equally Bangladeshi as Bangladeshi muslims? Do you see them as your “brothers” and “sisters”, or as half-foreigners with one foot in India?
What do you think of West Bengal/Kolkata? Do you see that part of India as essentially the same people as Bangladeshis? Or are they fundamentally a different group, because of their religion or nationality?
Would you say most Bangladeshis are Bangladeshi first and Muslim second, or Muslim first and Bangladeshi second?
Just curious!
It is a sad thing that my location has been exposed.
No, i am not from an educated elite background. May be i am from the urban middle class.
Yes there are a lot of hindus in Dhaka(and may be Bangladesh). They are everywhere in private and government sectors. Also,the government intentionally gives advantage to hindus in government and non government jobs for political reasons. However, i dont see it as the fault of any hindu person and the government is to blame for this. I interact with hindus very often and i have several hindu friends. The best childhood friend of my semi-islamist father is a hindu.
I see hindus as equally bangladeshi. May be some of them have soft corners for India and it is technically and theoretically possible for India to use them. Some (or many idk) hindus have relatives from india and have indian(west bengali?) roots. If a person is good i have no problem with him.
I dont know a lot about west bengalis but I’d assume that we are somehow very related to them(may be except brahmins). What does “same people” exactly mean? For example,by some simple blood tests you can easily identify a Bangladeshi (and may be other bengali muslims and may be rohingyas) since there are strong mongoloid indicators in our blood that probably other south asians dont have. I dont know a lot about history but as far as i know east bengalis had been culturally and socially a separate group for thousands of years. It depends on how u see “common people”.
There are some anti indian sentiments in Bangladesh because somehow the steps taken by the indian government has a negative impact on the economy,job sector and politics of Bangladesh (our government which has won the last election by fake votes is also backed by india). There are some reasons(that i know from personal sources and recent incidents) to think that some spy groups by means of conspiracy may try to create communal unrest in Bangladesh to achieve some geopolitical and civilizational aims which will be very dangerous for Bangladeshis. Anyway, i will not blame any common hindu person for these things.
I dont think most Bangladeshis will have any stand on whether they are Bangladeshi/muslim first since apparently such questions are divisive. But if u insist i think that they will be muslim 1st and then Bangladeshi (like me and many other muslims of the world)
I hope i answered your curiosity. Please dont continue this conversation because i want to focus on my real life instead of virtual life ?
Thanks for sharing.
Would a free trade, free investment, free business development, free cross border product development agreement between Bangladesh and India be good? Perhaps coupled with millions of work visas, day permit work visas (for those who live next to the Indian border), business visas, student visas, tourist visas, religious visas?
Could Bangladesh better market a religious tourist circuit that heavily emphasizes Hindu/Buddhist/Jain/Sufi places?
Why are Bangladeshi Sufi places not as famous as Sufi places in India?
This might sound odd ball. Are you familiar with Baba Lokenath? How is he viewed in Bangladesh?
Does anyone know that Boris Johnsons current wife (in process of divorce) is half Indian.
Marina Wheeler, daughter of Sir Charles Wheeler and Dip Singh.
https://www.telegraphindia.com/7-days/eye-on-england-16-12-2012/cid/349559
Isn’t Boris Johnson also partly Turkish?
Does that fact have any salience in Britain?
Heavy news day
1) The Human rights head of Pakistan has written to UN to strip Priyanka Chopra of her ambassador position ?????
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/08/pakistan-asks-remove-priyanka-chopra-goodwill-ambassador-190821081840304.html
Finally Pakistan is feeling what Indians have been feeling all these years. Doing worthless diplomatic stuff to cater to domestic crowd which has no effect on the other country.
2) India’s ex-defence minister and finance minister is about to be jailed on corruption charges. Having run out of options, he might just resort to “Aryan, Brahmanical conspiracy to jail proud son-of-the-soil Dravidian, resisting Hindu rastra ” or some variant of that.
Pakistan might see it as jailing of the one big guy opposed to BJP on Kashmir, hopefully they pronounce his name correctly this time around.
“2) India’s ex-defence minister and finance minister is about to be jailed on corruption charges. Having run out of options, he might just resort to “Aryan, Brahmanical conspiracy to jail proud son-of-the-soil Dravidian, resisting Hindu rastra ” or some variant of that.”
As usual, India is following Pakistan’s footsteps by imprisoning political opponents.
To be fair to GoI, allegations and legal action against Chidambaram and his son is brewing for a long time. It just came to boil now. However that is not the last of it. Most probably Chidambaram will be released after few days and over few yewars all the cases against him will lose steam.
Indian mentality usually refrains from delivering coup de grace against opponents or even criminals. It is always a picture of raised hand about to deliver a blow which never comes down and delivers the deadly blow. To put it differently , all erections no orgasm.
Something for Slapstik 😛
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/22/i-am-kashmiri-pandit-india-must-stop-weaponizing-pain-our-past/
“Opinion | India must stop weaponizing the pain of Kashmiri Pandits”
WaPo is plugging in all anti-India contents. WaPo belongs to Jeff Bezos . If Amazon does a deal with India, then their line will change
I read the op-ed. I don’t see what is “anti-India” about it (unless someone thinks anything anti-BJP is anti-India). The author makes the simple point that Kashmiri Pandit suffering should not be used to justify Kashmiri Muslim suffering. Nowhere does she deny the Pandit tragedy. This doesn’t seem like it would be particularly controversial, but people have jumped down her throat in the comments.
South Asians have a very thin skin. It should be perfectly OK to criticize the actions of particular governments without being accused of being “anti-national”. Also, you can’t control the media discourse in foreign countries the way you can at home.
\Kashmiri Pandit suffering should not be used to justify Kashmiri Muslim suffering\
This is a straw man argument. Nobody is setting off one suffering against another suffering. There is no calculus of suffering The fact is in one part of India , terrorists using religious language and religious motivation , uprooted people of another religion calls for strong measures. Ethnic cleansing cannot take place under the nose of the govt. Any govt worth it’s salt is going to bring about order and make sure all it’s citizens are protected and under no conditions ethnic cleansing takes place
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium-imran-khan-says-india-is-ethnic-cleansing-in-kashmir-but-pakistan-committed-it-1.7686207
The Pandits were not ethnically cleansed. This is another case of Indians throwing out a term (like genocide) without caring what it means. The massacres in Gujarat under Modi are a better (though still poor) example of ethnic cleansing.
For an actual case of ethnic cleansing, see the activities of Hindus and Sikhs against the Muslims of Jammu.
Well, they were threatened with violence unless they left, and now they’re gone. You can argue till the cows come home, but a reasonable person would consider that ethnic cleansing.
They were threatened in the same way Muslims are threatened in India. But incidents of right-wing groups making statements that threaten violence does not equate to ethnic cleansing.
Polls show Kashmiris want the Pandits to return. Its the Indian government that prolongs their self-imposed exile in order to use them for political points (poor Panditz are the troo victimz).
Actual organized militants >>> Petty thugs and criminals. But we won’t agree, so I’ll bid you a good day.
INDTHINGS,
I actually agree with HM (can you believe it?) that “ethnic cleansing” is an appropriate term for what happened to the Pandits. “Genocide” however is not. But my point was that Pandit suffering does not justify Muslim suffering. Too often when Indian nationalists are faced with the facts about what has been done to Kashmiri Muslims over the past 30 years, they turn around and say “What about Pandits?”. This is a species of whataboutary. In any case, it’s not like Indians were supporting Kashmiri independence before the Pandit exodus. It is an unfortunate fact that a nationalist movement assumed a religious color, but that doesn’t make the fundamental grievance illegitimate.
I agree with you that the Jammu massacres are also a prime example of ethnic cleansing.
\This is a species of whataboutary…\
The point is not whataboutery. The point is given this ethnic cleansing and a lot of other violence orchestrated from across the border, the GoI found the present constitutional arrangements and the political class in J&K inadequate to cope with the situation. That is why GoI eviscerated article 370 using article 370 itself.
Right. Like Indians were supporting the Kashmiri Independence movement before the Pandit Exodus? It’s very convenient for you to blame ethnic cleansing and violence across the border for the draconian steps being taken against the people of Kashmir. If there had been no ethnic cleansing, India still wouldn’t have given Kashmir freedom.
You persist in taking a statist position that justifies locking down an entire people. I continue to be surprised at how OK Indian nationalists are with authoritarianism. Twisting your own constitution so that an unelected governor represents the people of Kashmir is quite sketchy.
\ India still wouldn’t have given Kashmir freedom…. You persist in taking a statist position\
“Freedom of Kashmir” valley was never on the cards , in 1947 or now. Otherwise why should Pakistan keep ramping up demand ‘Kashmir banega Pakistan’ . J&K Kingdom pre-47 was a hotch potch of different religions, languages, ethnicities, and the ‘Kingdom’ was sold by the Colonial British govt in the 19th century. That commercial transaction was the origin of J&K kingdom. That is unraveling now. J&K was and is no different than 550 odd principalities which acceded to India.
Any state has the primary – even primordial – reason of maintaining law and order within it’s boundaries and ensuring the safety of it’s citizens. That is it’s justification. Any constitutional provisions can and should work only towards that.
J and K IS different from the other princely states because it is Disputed Territory. Pandit Nehru promised the Kashmiri people a plebiscite. No amount of denying by Indian nationalists will change this fact.
Anyway, it’s nice to see that you are totally OK with locking people up for three weeks without access to communications all in the name of protecting “law and order”. Hopefully, you will never be in a position where your government will feel like doing this to you.
Don’t bother responding. I see your statist position can’t be budged.
\Pandit Nehru promised the Kashmiri people a plebiscite\
I have to disabuse you of the notion that a democratic , parliamentary country like India with checks and balances does not work on “personal promises” made by whoever. Unless big govt decisions are approved by cabinet and passed by the parliament as law, whatever ‘promises’ made are hot air. There is a political-constitutional process which is supreme over personal promises. In any case Nehru made no promises of any sort to Pakistan, don’t know why Pakistanis are agitated about non-existent promises of Nehru to them.
I brought in Balochistan to put it in the context of how Pakistan has been the source of instability in the region and Kashmir is just a small sample of it. Needless to say Pakistan’s actions in Baluchistan or KP or Afghanistan are unconscionable.
People who shed tons of tears for Kashmir don’t conisder Balochis to be human beings who deserve some active sympathy
Pakistan talk show on Kashmir(in English) helpful for non hindi folks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eC08yq31zw&t=665s
Suggestion range to put up a Govt in exile for Kashmir(similar to India did in Bangladesh) , Khalistan and the best part dalits (which Pakistani pronounced as “Daalis” ) ????
A bold statement…
https://twitter.com/ShamikaRavi/status/1164567466795626496?s=20
If anyone possessing power in the BJP happens to be reading this blog, I have this to say: we all know we’re going into dire straits, and enough ink has been spilled on what needs to be done. History is watching, and it’s up to you whether it will remember the BJP for saving India from brutal agrarian squalor, or for putting indolence and careerism over the country that elected it.
Your move.
It looks like the Modi guv is getting serious about dodgy corporate loans which are sinking the banks and the finances of India
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSKT_JrBfio&t=730s
I was disappointed with the lax way in which big time economic crooks were dealt with
BJP came to power in 14 drumming up sky high the so-called 2G scam. Once they came to power they had no interest pursuing it , and no evidence was presented against the main accused A.Raja , the DMK minister in the central cabinet . He was released.
Then Mallya, Nirav Modi, etc.
RBI guv Raghuram Rajan was deselected cuz he wanted to take cudgels against bad corporate loans which by some estimates to the tune of Rs 30,00,000 CRORES.
I thought Modi guv was totally a handmaiden of big time companies which only want to squeeze the country dry and enrich themselves.
If what Ms Dalal says is true, it is very welcome and long overdue.
Like every govt of independent India, the BJP has not figured out how to thread the needle between enforcing rules and promoting entrepreneurship. Like Congress governments of the past, they see more short-term profit in stoking populist anger. Rather than reorienting the bureaucracy towards targeting malefactors in the business community while relaxing the burden on the average businessperson, they mete out punishment indiscriminately and make the day-to-day workings of business onerous for everyone, guilty or innocent. (Demonetization was prompted by a similar mentality.)
Either they don’t know any better or they have figured out that the public can’t be convinced to act in its best long-term interests. Any party that promotes sensible policies will always be out-shouted and out-emoted by someone else.
This (Modi’s) BJP would not do any reform which could lead to loss of net political capital. If the Govt is convinced somehow that political capital utilized would return in more political capital (with better economy) , only then the Govt will push that reform. This is the only language they understand. Everything else is short term and “managing” the economy, kicking the can further down the road. Though unlike HMB, I dont think they will let the economy into recession though, they will do enough to just “manage”
In a way they have learnt from their previous avatar where despite dis-investment and better handling of economy, the Vajpayee Govt was voted out. They are like , if people don’t care about economy, why should we care?
“‘Howdy Modi’: PM’s community event in Houston next month sold out as over 50,000 register for programme”
https://www.firstpost.com/world/howdy-modi-pms-community-event-in-houston-next-month-sold-out-as-over-50000-register-for-programme-7201641.html
Shame, I’m in Texas and I didn’t get to see this. 🙁
Anyways, the natural comparison is between this and the event at Madison Square at the start of the first term. Obviously, some of the sheen has worn off Modi, especially after he didn’t make much headway on economic reform.
But on the other hand, he won some of that luster back with the annulment of 370. That proved that the BJP is not simply “INC + Cows,” that it has a vision for India, and both the means and fortitude to execute on it. Inspiring stuff.
—
Unintentionally hilarious line from the article:
“‘Howdy’, short for ‘How do you do?’, is a friendly greeting commonly used in southwestern United States.”
” ‘Howdy’, short for ‘How do you do?’, is a friendly greeting commonly used in southwestern United States.”
That line is unintentionally hilarious.
Houston and Texas has robust Pakistani population too. Let the fireworks begin.
many thousands have disappeared and many dead bodies have turned up in Balochistan according to Balochis.
https://balochhumanrights.org/?p=2675
“Thousands have gone missing in Balochistan since early 2000’s. Hundreds of disappeared persons are found dead on roadsides. ”
The repression of Balochistan has been going on for many decades; The Pakistani govt have amassed thousands of troops, conducted full scale air operations, used helicopter gunships to kill Balochi leadership. The repression has been accelerated after Pakistan has made Chinese full time exploiters of Balochistan and whoever even remotely stood in the way has been disappeared.
What’s your point? Because Pakistan is bad, we Indians are justified in being bad too?
You are defending a government that has put an entire people under lockdown for three weeks and detained even the pro-India leaders.
If you wouldn’t defend Pakistan’s actions in Balochistan, then you shouldn’t be defending India’s actions in Occupied Kashmir. Both are examples of trying to hold people through force instead of consent.
This is how the modern Indian government works, and it looks like (to my despair) the Indian public is absolutely fine with its government penalizing many for the sins of the few.
Kashmir is the latest example, but we had demonetization in 2016, where an entire country’s money supply was confiscated, ostensibly to punish a few malefactors. Our tax department seems to have been going in overdrive, harassing and intimidating lots of people in order to catch a few tax avoiders. These are things that struck at middle India, and middle India not only tolerated them but also celebrated them. So of what consequence is Kashmir, whose Muslims are already unpopular in India because they kicked out the Pandits and persist in separatist activities?
The Indian economy seems to have hit a rough spot. We can argue if Modi’s demonetization and GST were contributing factors. As the world economy slides into recession, India is going to be further impacted. Expect to see more initiatives being pushed by the BJP such as Uniform Civil Code, etc.
The economic crisis will not go unexploited!
BJP blames India’s shortcomings on the (in)actions of the Congress. But unlikely that this will work for very long. Modi has a small window in which to engineer major changes and hope that these changes bear fruit in real terms to the average India. Else, it will be viewed the same as “The Great Leap Forward”…..