Kashmir “open thread”

Angry Kashmiris

Nothing to say of substance myself. What do I know compared to you geniuses? That being said, I’m a little surprised how dumb the American media is ( basically they seem to fall back on the same sources).

Like they used to say back in the day, “it’s yours”….

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87 Replies to “Kashmir “open thread””

  1. This is a very scary precedent set by the BJP. It is authoritarian and undemocratic, as well as potentially unconstitutional.

    I wonder which enemy state BJP will convert into a centrally controlled Union Territory next. I think West Bengal, Assam, Kerala, and Tamil Nadu are the BJP’s top enemy states after Kashmir. So I think one of those states will be the next victim.

    They’ve already established the protocol:
    – Impose President’s Rule
    – Lie about terrorist threats
    – Send in 540K troops
    – Impose complete indefinite communications blackout
    – Impose complete indefinite lockdown
    – Use constitutionally questionable tactics in Delhi to convert the state into a UT

    Which state do you think will be attacked next by the BJP?

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    1. Bengal is half bjp. Assam full bjp. So not needed. Tamil Nadu, Kerala inconsequential and ROI is not good enough

      About 540 k troops, forget Kashmir , do we even have that many in the whole army ? 🤔

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      1. “Bengal is half bjp. Assam full bjp. So not needed. Tamil Nadu, Kerala inconsequential and ROI is not good enough”

        Well, there would need to be some circumstances for the BJP to contrive. I think they’ll at least do that so that they have some plausible deniability for their authoritarianism and illegality.

        With Bengal, who knows, maybe a non-BJP party will gain a stronger majority and then the BJP will cook up something about infiltration from Bangladesh. Then once they Union Territory the state, Modi can do with it what he pleases.

        With Assam, maybe the citizenship stuff will cause some riots and that’ll be the excuse. With TN it will probably happen when they declare Hindi the sole language. Kerala who knows, does BJP even know it’s a part of India? Last I heard they thought it was Somalia.

        “About 540 k troops, forget Kashmir , do we even have that many in the whole army ? 🤔”

        I think we had 500K before the recent troop buildup, and then sent in at least 35K more. Might be wrong on the numbers though.

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        1. Nah the reason for Kashmir state to UT is two fold.

          1) There is no political blow back. In the states you mentioned the BJP is a player in democratic politics. It wont do it there, because it will dim their electoral prospects. In Kashmir it had none, so no fallout.

          2) It wants to control Kashmir police which cannot be done in a full fledged state. I have family in the army and according to them the Kashmiri police and the bureaucracy does a good job and the politicians push them to go soft on separatist/terrorist etc. I dont think any state has this issue (not anymore, earlier there was ), where the politicians swing between separatism and the Union . In all other states the separatist (N-East, Punjab) have either joined politics or taken on to full fledged separatism

          Assam will stay with the BJP for the foreseeable future notwithstanding NRC. Bengal , BJP will either be the opposition or the ruling party . Dont think BJP really cares about TN/Kerala (positive or negative) much as long as the members elected “support” their Union Govt. They are too small in larger scheme of things.

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          1. “Assam will stay with the BJP for the foreseeable future notwithstanding NRC. Bengal , BJP will either be the opposition or the ruling party .”

            It’s sad that Indian democracy has come to the point where you need to vote for the authoritarian party out of fear that if they don’t have adequate presence in your state, they will crush democracy and liberties to impose direct control by Modi or Yogi or which ever other dictator comes into power.

            “Dont think BJP really cares about TN/Kerala (positive or negative) much as long as the members elected “support” their Union Govt. They are too small in larger scheme of things.”

            This provides little solace, it’s just lower down on the priority list so it will happen later than sooner. Just interact with Hindutvadis and it becomes clear pretty quickly that Dravidians are on their enemy hit list, just not as high on the list as Muslims. If the BJP needs to distract from economic troubles (like it needs to right now), UT-ing TN and imposing Hindi will likely energize their base. Only nice thing is that they probably won’t make rape threats since Dravidian girls tend to be dark, although that didn’t spare Bengalis from Punjabis, so who knows.

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    2. The possibility of other states being converted into centrally controlled union territory is zero. J&K wasn’t like any other state and hence different measure was needed to address the status quo.

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      1. “The possibility of other states being converted into centrally controlled union territory is zero.”

        Many were saying that just before this happened. The pandora’s box has been opened. Even some of the Sanghis here are indicating that BJP enemy states will only receive BJP mafia protection for as long as BJP gets a significant presence in the state. Otherwise, they will crush democracy and rule with an iron fist from Delhi. They just established the template for doing just that.

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        1. A meteorite can crash with earth and destroy the whole planet. If I choose to remain fearful of possibilities, there is no end to it.

          J&K debate on 370 been around for decades, have you seen similar debate for the states you quoted?

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    3. This is scare mongering. GoI steps are targeted for a specific constitutional and political anomaly, which has been festering for a long time and which was one of the planks of BJP election promises for a long time.

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  2. American media is descending to the level of pure propaganda. I commented on it here:

    https://twitter.com/HMBroughMD/status/1158486374187712513?s=20

    I mean come on guys, this is an overwhelmingly popular decision. If *Kejriwal,* who otherwise hates the BJP, is supporting this, then there’s obviously two sides to the story.

    I myself don’t have strong opinions on 370, I think it’s a largely symbolic move (but a good symbol!) except for the Ladakh stuff.

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    1. “I mean come on guys, this is an overwhelmingly popular decision. If *Kejriwal,* who otherwise hates the BJP, is supporting this, then there’s obviously two sides to the story.”

      He pretty much has to support it unless he is interested in being raided by government agencies, or committing political suicide, or he is the kind of person who stands by his principles.

      Indians are in frenzy as Hindu nationalism and extremism has swept through the country like a plague. As a result, the current government has been put into power with an overwhelming majority. They have become extremely authoritarian in cracking down on opposition.

      Dissent on social media can lead to arrests at worst, and death threats and rape threats by Internet Hindus at best. Dissent by politicians and political parties will result in raids by tax and other governmental agencies, which are now merely political weapons of the BJP rather than independent and respectable institutions. Given how frenzied the Indian Hindus have become, it will also result in political suicide.

      This is a country where scores of frenzied Hindus are celebrating about the prospect of raping “fair Kashmiri girls”, which is something that the Indian Army had a monopoly on but I guess now it will be open season as civilians can also participate in this great tradition.

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      1. Wow, you seem to think the BJP is United Russia 2.0 or something…Yet still, people make a living bashing Modi, and foreign correspondents outsource their thinking to them. Odd…

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        1. @HMBro

          “Wow, you seem to think the BJP is United Russia 2.0 or something…Yet still, people make a living bashing Modi, and foreign correspondents outsource their thinking to them. Odd…”

          The freedom and ability to criticize the government is diminishing. Arbitrary crackdowns on people posting anti government messages on social media has a chilling effect. Sedition laws are abused. Journalists are threatened by Hindutvadis, especially women.

          In the 2018 Press Freedom Index, India ranked 138th out of 180, tied in score with Pakistan. It’s like Modi thinks this is the LSAT and wants to get 180.

          India is ranked behind glorious bastions of freedoms such as Myanmar, Palestine, the Philippines, UAE, Qatar, Chad, Gambia, Angola, Maldives, Afghanistan, Uganda, Guatemala, Mali, Congo, Zambia, Central African Republic, Bulgaria, Ukraine, and Liberia.

          You are correct that it’s not as bad as Russia, which is 148th.

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      2. Hoju
        I am just waiting for your Hyde turn bro. It’s like WWE, and you are Dyawne Jonson of brown pundits. Convincing as face as well as the heel.

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      3. “scores of frenzied Hindus are celebrating about the prospect of raping “fair Kashmiri girls”

        So the fact that now jammu/ kashmir / ladkh girls can now marry guys from the rest of the world incl. rest of India without loosing property rights, means Hindus are celebrating the prospect of raping them? Wtf?

        The law prior to this was that Kashmiri men could marry out of the state without issues but not women. This makes it more gender neutral.

        Most marriages to non-kashmiris would still be within the same religion.

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      4. I don’t know what are you smoking. Try to take it easy and relax. Your imagination is runing wild. India’s pluralism and inclusivity only increases with the onset of Hindu nationalism. Parsis and Jews found refuge in India when “Hindu nationalist” kings ruled the land. The only reason is that Hindu nationalism has pluralism as its basis. Erosion of Hindu nationalism will make the country into Pak 2.0

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    2. Merits and demerits of Article 370 are one thing, putting people whose fate is being decided under lockdown is something totally different (and the libertarian in me would say, tyrannical.)

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  3. Kashmir had a misogynistic policy, where Kashmiri men could marry outsiders but if Kashmiri women did, they would lose their Kashmiri citizenship and hence all of the property privileges that come with it. There are some nasty comments floating on social media from some weirdos on Hindu Right, but Kashmiris and their policy wasn’t exactly the embodiment of egalitarian or equitable by any means.

    70 years of stalemate and failure. You either have a nation and borders or you don’t. There is a reason even the U.S passed the Interstate Commerce Act, despite being a federalist nation. Free movement of goods and people within in a space is part of the definition of a functional nation.

    The whole plebiscite would likely never happen. Occupation and suicide bombings would continue in the long term. This is a long term move. It trades possibly a hundred more years of violence for a potential short term increase and temporary martial law in the state for long term stability. People will move in and the state will develop. Extremism will fall. The locals will gain a sense of kinship and belonging with their fellow countrymen.

    The increase in transactions via movement of goods and services along with the flux of migrants will increase GDP and HDI in the long term, as industry develops. There will be positive change. Hyderabad is an example of another Muslim majority area integrated partially with force. The end result is one of the most prosperous cities in India. Yes there are still swathes of neighborhoods in Hyderabad that have Pakistani flags up during cricket matches, but suicide bombings are an essential non issue.

    This is the best practical long term solution. Modi timed it because he knew Trump would do nothing. LOC will effectively become the border in the coming decades and violence will decrease. Relations will thaw. Perhaps SAARC will strengthen.

    An aside, but there is a racial element to this. Kashmiris definitely have a complex about their lighter skin and relatively more europid appearance as do other lighter on average S Asian groups. Positive is easier time getting modeling and acting gigs, and people oogling at you more. Downside is creepy fetishization.

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        1. By Hyderabad , we don’t mean in these discussions the city of H , but the Nizam’s state of Hyderabad. In Nizam’s state of Hyderabad, Muslims constituted a miniscule minority.

          As far the city of Hyderabad, as of 2011 , the Pop of Hyderabad was 65%/30% Hindu/Muslim

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    1. “Kashmir is a misogynistic society”

      Pot calling the kettle black. Also, preferential access to citizenship via males marrying out compared to females is seen in various countries (including European ones).

      “Extremism will fall. The locals will gain a sense of kinship and belonging with their fellow countrymen.”

      You sweet summer child. Pop on over to Israel and observe the “sense of kinship and belonging” the Palestinians feel, “with their fellow countrymen”.

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      1. takes time and those countries are wrong too. you either have a nation or you don’t. integration has growing pains. I am optimistic. No better solution exists. A thousands years of more of the same would be far worse.

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      2. “policy” not “society”

        Nice misquoting. Bad strawman. But good it divulges the lack of good argumentation you have. 1000 more years of stupidity would lead to more blood than short term growing pains of this policy. And Palestinians are responsible for their own failed quasi state. Muslims in Israel have better writes than Palestinians. Pak has HDI of Bihar, India’s least well off state. Name of game is development. I would prefer atheism to Hindutuva but perpetual Jihad and ISI sponsored terrorism and madrassa brainwashing and then ISIS recently claiming new zone in Kashmir. Drastic steps were need. I applaud Amit Shah.

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  4. Looking at Pakistan’s reaction, to me the most ironic part is that , seems like for the last 70 years the biggest weapon which Pakistan had in Kashmir was supposedly a law in the INDIAN constitution (😁😁😁) and India was siting on it all this while ,without even knowing about it.

    Its similar to how Omar bhai says that Pakistan army biggest asset in India is really India’s bureaucracy.

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    1. \ the biggest weapon which Pakistan \

      Even bigger weapon in Pakistani arsenal was the Referendum as dictated by UN Resolutions.

      Without even reading the Resolution they were lecturing India. They did not even read the UN Resultion the first step is that Pakistan vacate it’s part of Occupied Kashmir, along with all the soldiers and Pakistani citizens.

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  5. I think BJP should also focus on environment which is very sensitive in jammu, Kashmir and ladakh. They should implement stricter environmental laws. I think these new UTs should still reserve government jobs for residents only.

    International media is going crazy about india doing an ethnic displacement but they don’t realize that a mere 10k sq km was holding the other two larger regions by throat and not to mention how they choked india. Kashmiris tried everything they could to displace hindus and Buddhists in other two regions . All what international media talks about is kashmiri Muslims and never anything about Jammu, ladakh, Buddhists in Ladakh or kashmiri pundit ethnic cleansing/exile. I guess hindoos are bad people !!

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    1. It doesn’t change anything. Neither for Kashmiris or for Indians. It just makes something de jure which was sort of de facto all this this while. Jammu will still have domicile laws while no one in his right mind will invest in Kashmir. No one gonna buy property there apart from the big tourism players who are already there in Kashmir. Ladakh will too get similar laws as Nagaland ( tribal areas ). The Indian state already gives 10 percent ( for 1 percent population of India) central funds to that state. How much extra will it give ?

      Only change that will happen is administration. Police and beurcrats will be under centre and will work with closer tandem with the army. What would be th result for the people of the state ? Your guess is as good as mine

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      1. “no one in his right mind will invest in Kashmir. No one gonna buy property there apart from the big tourism players who are already there in Kashmir”

        The market has already priced-in the risk over the years.

        Land prices in Kashmir are likely to increase as a result of this since it opens up the land to a much larger pool of buyers.

        CII is planning a Kashmir investment summit later this year.

        https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/cii-to-organise-investors-summit-in-jammu-and-kashmir-in-october-4298181.html

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  6. I was about to advise Razib NOT to open a thread dedicated to Kashmir, and he has gone ahead and done just that.

    At this point, everybody is dead tired of Kashmir issue. The world is tired of it, India and Pak are tired of it, Kashmiris are tired of it. Heck, even I am personally tired of it.

    Since the past two years or so when I am frequenting this blog, I have not seen a single post on Nepal, Bhutan or Sri Lanka, and seen may be about 2 posts on Bangladesh. And of course I have lost count of posts dedicated to India-Pak slug-fest.

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    1. “I was about to advise Razib NOT to open a thread dedicated to Kashmir, and he has gone ahead and done just that.”

      Thankfully the Sanghis can’t put a communications blackout on international blogs. It’s only Indian Hindus that don’t want to discuss Kashmir at such a pivotal juncture of its history.

      Thanks for opening this thread, Razib.

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      1. \Sanghis can’t put a communications blackout on international blogs. \

        By Sanghis you mean members of the long dead Jan Singh which breathed it’s last in 1979. , talk of seeing ghosts and delusions. It can be called Djinn Sangh.

        Lok Sabha was occupied with Congress and other parties putting forth spurious arguments. If the ghostly Sanghis can’t prevent freedom of expression and debate in Lok sabha, what chance they have anywhere else.

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    1. S Asian racialism knows no bounds. VOX, bloomberg, NY Times, and WSJ all condemn the move. Interesting how it is pure lip service.
      And true Pak is best example. They colonized POK. India is about to do the same. Also giving these people their own state, as improbable and downright fantastical that would be, would essentially incentivize other groups to commit genocide to strengthen absolute majority to more easily cling to self determination narrative, as was done in this case.
      Anyway, none of this matters. Let’s hope this short term stuff boils over as fast as possible and investment and development can begin. Lot of great potential capital

      Hindutuva to integrate Kashmir but more secular government after things cool off to better develop its institutions. Baby steps.

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    2. Lol. I listened to this earlier today. Every time I read/listen to/watch something on Vox et al about a subject I’m relatively informed about, I’m reminded to not take anything specific these guys say about foreign lands seriously. Especially cringed at the reference to Kashmiri Pandits (without naming them). The lady suggested some people left, since it was a Muslim state, for whatever reason and they’re excited they can come back and fulfill the fascist BJP’s dream of ethnically cleansing Kashmir. The level of arrogance needed to suggest a minority will ethnically cleanse the state while not even knowing they were thrown out … smdh.

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      1. I agree with you how much rubbish the talk was. Their grasp over basic historical facts was weak. On top of it , they were prejudiced against Modi as he was barred from entering the US for some years. Any talk of Kashmir escalates into ‘ethnic cleaning’ as if that is on cards next. Not worth listening.

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  7. Looking at the picture on top, the only thing I can say is that the angry Kashmiris look so cute.

    I really don’t know what else to say about the whole fiasco. For quite some time I resisted the urge to speak on this topic, but finally gave in. I feel Kashmiris had it coming. They had a reasonable offer of autonomy, which would have gone far beyond anything article-370 gave them, and they blew it. (I remember a former PM of India had told them that if they could settle for autonomy, sky was the limit). They stuck to maximalist position, and lost big time.

    Kashmiri leadership was basically delusional. I remember reading an interview of Gilani in which he was asked to give his vision for the future of Kashmir. He said they were aiming for a solution in which the entire J&K state, Jammu and Laddakh included, will merge with Pak and its Hindu and Buddhist minority will live peacefully under a benevolent Islamic state ruled by sharia! I kid you not. He really thought this is what he could get.

    During Manmohan Singh’s time, there was another proposal of a “soft borders” solution. What it basically meant was that India will maintain just a nominal sovereignty over the valley, and Kashmiris will have full freedom to travel to Pak. The valley would have become an independent state for all practical purposes. Again, nothing came out of this proposal because Pak wanted some muslim populated regions of Jammu and Ladakh to be thrown in the deal.

    I remember reading a quote by someone that a real statesman is someone who knows the possibilities of his times. Wish Kashmiri leadership knew that.

    Kashmiris always complained about the presence of security forces in the valley. What they didn’t understand was that presence of security forces was an effect, not the cause. There were no security forces in the valley before 1989 when the whole mess started. Kashmir was a reasonably prosperous place then. They had higher per capita income than most other Indian states. They always had a Kashmiri Muslim chief minister in a state with a significant Hindu population. And they had constitutional right to exclude other Indians and have the entire state for themselves. I guess it just was too much of a good thing to have.

    I am sure BJP will not stop here, and go the whole hog. Expect to see constituency delimitation that makes Kashmiris minority stakeholder in the political game, resettlement of Kashmiri Hindus under armed escort, and possible resettlement of other Indians in the valley. The real “occupation” will begin now.

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    1. In India there is large movements of people for economic reasons – Mumbai gets large number of outsiders. Even Tamilnadu and Karnataka gets many thousands of migrant labour from as far away as Assam or Bihar. Most of these are migrant labour and most of them will go back ‘home’ . Only when Jammu and Kashmir becomes an economic powerhouse . it will attract migrant labour . Otherwise tourists are the only ‘outsiders’ they can hope for.
      It is not going to change the population composition for a long time and that too will happen only by ‘organic’ factors , not some policy decisions

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      1. There are already migrant workers from Bihar and other places in Kashmir. I’m seeing daily news reports about them trying desperately to get out of the valley, some because there’s no income to be made now, others because they got death threats from the locals.

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  8. “Again, nothing came out of this proposal because Pak wanted some muslim populated regions of Jammu and Ladakh to be thrown in the deal.”

    I dont think that was the reason deal was called off. They were still negotiating, when Mushraff suddenly lost power in Pak, who in a way was the only one from Pak who was pushing this deal, while all the generals were against it. Also Manmohan wanted to visit Pak and jointly announce the whole thing, and waited too long for every detail to be iron-ed out. So that it does not become a back stab like Lahore-Kargil.

    “The real “occupation” will begin now.”

    I think UT-ing the state is perhaps for the same reason. To pulverize them ,that rather than Azaadi , their demand would be now to status quo ante or go back to at least a normal state status.

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    1. “I think UT-ing the state is perhaps for the same reason. To pulverize them ,that rather than Azaadi , their demand would be now to status quo ante or go back to at least a normal state status.”

      The butcher of Gujarat becomes the pulverizer of Kashmir.

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      1. “Butcher of Gujarat” – a fake title created by left and liberal media to demonise the legitimate opposition.

        UT means nothing really. They will still have a Chief Minister. Delhi is the most populous UT. It has Kejriwal as its CM.

        J&K is a beautiful area which was left underdeveloped and malnourished thanks to terrorism and lack of Indian political will.

        Thanks to the new move, things will change for the better

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        1. Kashmir is more developed, and Kashmiris are better fed, than the Hindi heartland. This is a bogus charge to throw at the Indian state, which has always had too little capacity for effective action (thanks to tax evasion, corruption, and other problems) but has tried to do what it can.

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          1. Kashmir is better developed and better fed (if that were true) is to the credit of the Indian state. J&K is a major recipient of transfer payments from the Centre, not a contributor.

            In fact, it is Jammu region that pulls the state’s indicators upwards and Kashmir Valley is the laggard — as anyone who visits the state can see for himself/herself.

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      2. Hoju

        Now bro come one, even Triple H did turn face once in a while.Or else your avatar will go stale. Or are you holding the line till Indthings or Kabir show up and pick up the mantle.

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  9. We may be neglecting Ladakh in all of this. Separating it from J&K allows the Indian Govt to seek out a settlement with China on the vexing boundary issue. As it is, China is in control of a large chunk of Ladakh. If both India and China are willing to accept the realities on the ground, perhaps with minor adjustments, this could be the basis for the settlement. India would be undertaking this border adjustment without the complication of J&K assembly raising objections and/or Pakistan playing a role in the background.

    If anybody could “sell” this settlement to the Indian public, it would be Modi right now.

    This would not be a new “Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai” phase. Just reduce the chances for conflict at the roof of the world.

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    1. China positioned has changed as they have grown stronger , earlier they were ok with East-West solution. Everything to West of Nepal (Aksai Chin) which they control is theirs, everything which we control in the East is ours (Arunachal ) . But now they are not ready to bulge on either of them. To “accept” Tibet as part of China , India got Sikkim acceptance from China in return in early 2000s. Now the power differential has changed a lot. I would argue the moment is lost , and no deal would be reached.

      Finally there is no Hindi Chini Bhai bhai, considering as long as our tilt is towards USA, while theirs is for Pak ,we will never have a healthy relationship. The best thing is to “manage” the relationship. But India’s power to hold the status quo is diminishing day by day, as China rises and India somewhat stuck. Either we choose a side or give concessions to China to finalize the border now.

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    1. I was told a few days ago that “Genocide” is not a term Hindus use for the killing of 350 Pandits. In this very video, the BJP official uses the term “genocide” to describe the event. “Genocide” is the standard term the Hindu-Right uses to push propaganda about this event.

      People who deny this are either ignorant, or more likely, trying to cover for this nonsense by outright denying it on more centrist leaning forums like this one, where they know it can’t be defended rationally.

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      1. No one uses genocide seriously. They either don’t know enough or aren’t serious and is used a catch all term like “ethnic cleansing” is used. Just like Imran khan used racism and nazism to define bjp.

        It’s used the same way bengali use genocide to what Pakistani did to them. Or what Kashmiri pundits say Kashmir Muslims did to them. Or what Kashmiri Muslims and Pakistan say what India does to them.

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        1. “Just like Imran Khan used racism and nazism to define BJP”

          The above is an accurate description of the BJP and the Hindu Right generally.

          “What Bengalis say about Pakistan”

          The popular figure of 3,000,000 dead and at least some international experts who’ve called it a genocide give Bengalis some weight here. The Pandit Exodus has none of these things.

          “What Muslims say India does”

          I haven’t heard Muslim officials in Pak or India, with complete seriousness, say something as stupid as “Pandit Genocide”. The massacres in Gujarat are a better example of “genocide” than the former.

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          1. “The above is an accurate description of the BJP and the Hindu Right generally.”

            Yes of course , since Islam is a race and Kashmiri are of different race than rest of the Indians

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          2. The BJP is certainly a communal and racist regime but Nazi comparisons go too far and are not useful. There are no death camps in Occupied Kashmir.

            Pakistani government officials have said that they are afraid that India is going to commit “genocide” in Occupied Kashmir. This rhetoric is also far-fetched. There don’t seem to be any plans to remove or kill the natives of the land, simply to treat them as a colonized population. I also don’t see India moving non-Kashmiris into the Valley en masse the way that Israel has settled Occupied Palestine (though people can now legally buy land in Kashmir).

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          3. When you say “Pandit Exodus”, you are also indulging in propaganda, like the people who call it a genocide.

            The Pandits left because they were intimidated into leaving. There is ample reporting on this, there are multiple interviews you can easily find on the web. It began with harassment, the odd incidence of violence and even murder, Muslims telling their Hindu colleagues “Chale jaao” (leave ). The Indian state and military showed no indication of being willing, or having the capacity, to protect the people locally. So they left. And if people like Anupam Kher (a Kashmiri Pandit) are expressing some schadenfreude at what’s going on now, I can sympathize with them, even though I consider it to be a draconian and illiberal measure.

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      2. Fair enough. I was the one who said that in response to you a few days ago. I’ve been seeing the word “genocide” used on internet comments boards recently too (but typically by random ignorant commenters.) It’s not a term that can be defended by the facts, unlike what happened in East Pakistan.

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  10. \treat them as a colonized population \

    No they are treated as same as all other Indian citizens with the changes in 370 . They became Indian citizens in October 1947 and due to some political skulduggery in the 1950s , they had more asymmetric rights with respect to rest of Indians. That anomaly has been corrected. To call this anomaly correction as ‘colonization’ is mind boggling.

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    1. Where in India proper can the government cut off phones and internet and impose curfew for five days (as of now)? Where can the decision to partition a state and demote it to a UT be taken without getting the consent of the residents of that state? This is behavior that characterizes an imperial regime more than a democratic country.

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      1. “Where in India proper can the government cut off phones and internet and impose curfew for five days (as of now)? Where can the decision to partition a state and demote it to a UT be taken without getting the consent of the residents of that state? This is behavior that characterizes an imperial regime more than a democratic country.”

        Just watch, I’m sure the BJP will do it to their enemy states. Hindutvadis hate secular Hindus who don’t care for their Hindu Rashtra project as much as they do Muslims. Bengalis, South Indians, Northeast Indians — probably one of those are next.

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    2. “No they are treated as same as all other Indian citizens with the changes in 370 . They became Indian citizens in October 1947 and due to some political skulduggery in the 1950s , they had more asymmetric rights with respect to rest of Indians. That anomaly has been corrected. To call this anomaly correction as ‘colonization’ is mind boggling.”

      You shouldn’t induce a party to enter into a union by promising asymmetrical federalist arrangements and then unilaterally violate that promise.

      What happened was outrageous. Arresting leaders; evacuating tourists, pilgrims, and students; extended curfew; communications blackout; unilateral change to the relationship between the center and the state. Causing immense panic and suffering. This is what you expect in poor dictatorships, and I guess that’s where things are now.

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      1. \You shouldn’t induce a party to enter into a union by promising asymmetrical federalist arrangements and then unilaterally violate that promise\
        This is a distortion of history. AS per the norms prevailing when Kashmir joined Indian Union, no promises were made about asymmetric rights ; it was the same promises that were made to 550 off Princely States. Kashmir was no different. The accession of Kashmir to India was unconditional.

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  11. without getting the consent of the residents of that state.. ??

    There are celebrations in Ladakh at the Liberation from Kashmir. So is Jammu. These constitute 90% of the former state by area. 5 or 6 Tehsils were holding the entire area to ransom .

    The central Indian govt has behaved badly many times before, many of them under the ‘secular’ Congress regime. It started with Indira Gandhi removing the duly elected Communist govt in Kerala in 1957. The DMK govt in Tamilnadu has been removed twice .

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  12. Not sure if folks watched Modi’s speech to the nation after the abrogation of Article 370 and 35A. It is here – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ0m1EmpndU

    It is a rather rambling speech in Hindi, but a key component of the speech states categorically that residents of J&K will choose their own representatives. He also goes on and on about how he is going to bring jobs and development to J&K and Ladakh.

    The timing of action on J&K is rather unfortunate because the Indian economy has slowed considerable in 2019. This might turn out to the achilles heel for the BJP govt.

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    1. “The timing of action on J&K is rather unfortunate because the Indian economy has slowed considerable in 2019. This might turn out to the achilles heel for the BJP govt.”

      It doesn’t really matter. I don’t think the BJP can lose federally any more.

      Because the BJP is cozy with big business, the BJP dwarfs all competitors, combined, when it comes to having funds.

      The BJP has fully captured the Election Commission.

      The BJP uses investigative and tax agencies to intimidate or jail political opponents.

      The BJP also silences free speech with arbitrary arrests of leaders of media houses against the BJP as well as arrests of people posting anti BJP materials.

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    2. This is the only time it can be done. Afghanistan war is winding down, and the scenario will soon mimic the end of cold war of the 90s where free of its Western obligations, Pakistan will move to the Eastern theater. In the late 80s even after the rigged Kashmir election, the insurgency only started acquiring teeth in the 90s once Pakistan pushed the mujaheddin across the border.

      So the time India has now to “stabilize” Kashmir is till the end of Afghan peace process.

      https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/imran-khan-s-us-visit-weak-oppn-sped-up-article-370-endgame/story-Nqm9IVeETtkae2mzmVr4BK.html

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  13. This event has prompted some commentary that isn’t so strong. My ranking of the worst so far, below:

    1) “This is bad for pak”. Nope. This is great for Pakistan, and especially the army. The pak claim is that a Muslim majority area will always be oppressed under Delhi’s Hindu raj. Kashmiri autonomy was an inconvenient fact to explain away. Modi’s move validates every Pak prejudice, justifies the eternal war to “save” Kashmir, and the central role of the army in Pak.

    2) “Kashmiris will now be treated the same as other Indians.” Nope. Worse. India has an excellent record of treating groups and territories assymetrically based on their characteristics (Jati, geography, etc). For example, a permit is required for Indians to travel to parts of AP, Mizo, and nagaland, to protect tribal territory. Kashmiris lose all of that, which other Indians keep.

    What’s worse, they have been inexplicably turned into a Union territory, usually reserved for small population jurisdictions. J+k has 12 million people, twelve times bigger than the next largest UT, apart from Delhi, and bigger than 10 or so states. As a UT with a legislature, the police will be controlled by the centre. I suppose the next Kathua rape case –Hindu raping Muslim kid — will be investigated quite differently, as several BJP Ministers publicly wished. Who knew the child-rape lobby carried such influence! (That’s a joke).

    3) “This is good for India.” Nope. Bad. India can’t run Kashmir without the consent of the governed — can they ever get it now? It will remain a bleeding sore, draining the rest of the body; cf East Timor, South Sudan, Chechnya, Ireland. It has also set a chilling example to other states — Amerinder Singh’s reaction has been telling.

    4) “This will spur jobs and investment in Kashmir.” What? Is Jared Kushner commenting here? Who in their right mind would invest in an unhappy, insurgency wracked state, now improved with unstable governance.

    5) “Only six districts will oppose”. Trees and rocks don’t vote, people do. The majority of the population will likely oppose (unless this is popular in Poonch). They happen to live in a few districts — so what?

    1+
    1. “The pak claim is that a Muslim majority area will always be oppressed under Delhi’s Hindu raj. Kashmiri autonomy was an inconvenient fact to explain away. ”

      I dont think it either as a win or loss for Pak. Dont think Pakistan had to ever explain autonomy anyway. For them everything was a sham from day1. No amount of autonomy saved India from being hauled to UNHRC in the 90s , where real-politic (Iran abstaining) saved the day, rather than status of Kashmir. Today again when India has taken much more from Kashmir , still no country will take India to UNHRC because of the India-Pakistan power differential and not because of autonomy and all.

      “Kashmiris lose all of that, which other Indians keep.”

      Kashmir will be treated the same way Jharkhand and Himachal are treated with domicile quotas and all. True it wont be Nagaland but it won’t be UP either.

      “t will remain a bleeding sore, draining the rest of the body; ”

      Notwithstanding 370 it was and always will be a bleeding sore forever. I am with you that article 370 should not have been removed (that’s a personality trait, i tend to play safe) , but now what i feel GOI wants is to get value for money in a way. In sense those who take money,resources in the valley need to be pro India rather than “give me more money or i join the other side” type.

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    2. “Who knew the child-rape lobby carried such influence! (That’s a joke).”

      Oh the rape industry in India really took off when the Muslim kid raped and murdered that Hindu girl in Delhi. I gather he got a tailoring shop as a reward.

      0
    1. A typical lazy minded Extreme leftist , mudslinging view of Hindutva or BJP or Modi. Their usual smear tactics involves throwing Hitler’s name and picture as many times as possible along with Hindutva or Hindus. This TV program does only all the smear buzzwords and tactics . To some extent, this was started by Taliban Khan himself who called Hindutva Nazi, racists and whatnot. Even if Modi or Hindutva is one hundredth of all the Nazi character which leftists or Islamists and this TV program ascribe it to , no Lob Sabha or Rajya Sabha debates would have taken place, and India would be dotted with concentration camps. This from a country in which hundreds of people including journalists have disappeared due to actions of the Deep State and the opposition leaders are in jail.

      Pakistanis deserve a better informed discussion of Indian political forces than mudslinging
      Najam Sethi is usually good.

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      1. LOL, Vijay bhai no need to get so worked up. Anyway people who want to “explain” RSS to their viewers , need to first pronounce it correctly , no? 😜😜

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  14. Outlook India is reporting that there are tanks out in the streets of Srinagar.

    Gonna be a long hard road. Modi has bitten the bullet. Let’s hope he can carry it through.

    0
    1. “Outlook India is reporting that there are tanks out in the streets of Srinagar.”

      All while Hindus in much of India celebrated on the streets. Why are we treating people who are supposedly Indians like enemies?

      Just another disastrous blunt force measure like demonetization. No forethought.

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