Open Thread – Brown Pundits

By Razib Khan 128 Comments

The usual. Talk about what you want. Or not. Pakistan, Islam, etc. Or American riots.

Also, starting a semi-regular podcast with Surya Y. about American politics from two viewpoints (Left and Right). The first episode is up, check it out. If you don’t want to do Apple Podcasts, try this.

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128 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. Recently (in last OT), one BP reader (for the sake of story, let’s call him ‘taqiyyaman’), irritated by the newly uncovered fact that Pakistan secret service is sending thousands of Islamic fighters to Bosnia, in his intent to justify the practice of taqiyya in Islam, puts the sign of equation between these two things (!?). He even made a step further by claiming that taqiyya is a civilisational achievement. In his desperation, he lost the focus and, for reasons known only to him, as a key supporting evidence he mentioned the ethnic cleansing of Bosnian Serb muslims (so called Bosniacs) by Bosnian Serbs Christians, specifically alluding to alleged ‘genocide’ in Srebrenica, Bosnia. He used fabricated ‘evidence’ from Wikipedia without knowing anything about this matter. The truth is that 99% of public ‘evidence’ is actually a fabricated old propaganda which is not used anymore even by its creators because people started realising that the whole construction is on shaky ground and that Bosnian civil war was actually a preview of the subsequent ISIL’s jihad and a part of their intention to create the Caliphate from Bosnia to Indonesia (so-called ‘Green Transversal’).

    The T-man is trying now, as he did couple times before, to shut my mouth and is even pushing for me to be banned on BP blog. It is a real grotesque that someone who supports jihad, taqiyya and terror on Christians in his country on one side and is claiming to be a liberal and cosmopolitan on other side, is pretending to give anyone some civilisational lessons. Such schizophrenia is probably strengthened by the arguments and facts (always) presented in my comments while he obviously has none and uses a recycled and outdated propaganda.

    However, there are some objective descriptions of the civil war in Bosnia from the side we did not really expect. Let see for example what Islamic Times says about so-called ethnic cleansing in Srebrenica (excerpts bellow):

    https://www.islamtimes.org/en/article/176550/nato-tied-to-muslim-slaughter-at-srebrenica

    (EXCERPTS from the previous Islamic Times article)
    NATO and CIA linked to Srebrenica massacre

    … As Timothy Blanchford-Henchly points out at the farcical International Criminal Court – that travesty of justice and insult to international law which kidnaps people, illegally detains them and does not apply the principles of due process.

  2. More EXCERPTS from Islamic Times
    (for those who are really interested to know the truth):

    …If the “status quo” is any indication of intent, NATO sitting on Kosovo, Bulgaria, Romania and much of the region, a region now a center of drug trafficking, of international crime and a region increasingly fortified to threaten Russia or Syria or Iran, this may well have been the NATO intent when organizing and ordering the slaughter of thousands of civilians.

    …Worst of these propaganda pieces you will see below, which has now been debunked as the truth about Srebrenica, the CIA, MI 6, DRM (France) massacre, operated by Western intelligence agencies is realized.

    The ICC feels no shame, itself being in a way, fully complicit “after the fact” in covering up the Srebrenica massacres. We are given a broad picture of events in the Balkans that directly contradict much we have been told and places responsibility for the civil wars in the Balkans on Western powers. The incident in Srebrenica is a tragedy twofold. First of all, the 17 years spent chasing an innocent man while allowing those responsible to, not only continue untouched but to build, in Kosovo and Albania, through NATO, the largest drug empire, distributing Afghan heroin, in the history of the world.

    … A French major, serving with their intelligence services, fled to Belarus with the evidence that war crimes committed in Srebrenica in 1995. The documents he presented shows that the “genocide” blamed on Serbians was organized by the American, British and French secret intelligence service, and carried out by a paramilitary group known as the “Scorpions” in order for the alleged genocide have accused the military and civilian officials of the Republic of Serbian (RS).

    …From the document, which is the possession of Belarus, the French officer requested and received political asylum on the June 29, 2012 in Minsk. The documents clearly show that Naser Oric and all the commanders of the Army of Bosnia/Herzegovina (Muslim) in this part of eastern Bosnia were under constant control of the western intelligence services. Oric was the Bosnian Muslim commander in Srebrenica and was convicted by the ICC of war crimes against Serbs but found “not guilty” of broader crimes of ethnic cleansing.

    … “Paper’s submitted by the French Major substantiate that Oric had received 70 “operational directives” to act against Serbian civilians issued by French intelligence services, in particular, the DRM. Additional evidence kept from the court that led to the suspension in proceedings showed that the majority of those killed in Srebrenica were members of the Army of Bosnia/Herzegovina (Muslim) who were cut off the VRS, Bosnian Serb Army while making their way out of the Tuzla region. Documents indicate that NATO misreported combat casualties, in this case numbering up to 6000 as civilian victims.

    “French Major TD” states that he is coming forward with the documents he secured, because he wishes the families of the victims of Srebrenica to know the full truth about who killed their loved ones and why. T.D. served as a Lieutenant in command of a DRM unit in Bosnia at the time and has direct personal knowledge of the events reported here and has, as we had stated previously, made himself available for testimony and offers his documentation for consideration by the prosecutors at the ICC.

    TD states very simply, “I could not live with this burden on my conscience.

    1. Of course the western world/NATO played a role to organize the Srebrenica massacre. In fact, the NY Times indirectly portrayed the massacre as a positive thing.

      1. Yep, you are right. Why NY Times thinks that massacre in Srebrenica, organized by US/Nato, was positive?

        It is a public knowledge, presented in several books, that Clinton and Muslim president made an agreement to sacrifice some muslims what Clinton can use as a justification to bomb Serbs. This diverted attention from his impeachment, but it was also a precedent for subsequent ‘humanitarian’ bombings in Kosovo, Iraq, Libya, Syria and other places what became a ‘normal’ thing. Also, Germans used this opportunity for the first time in history after the ww2 to send their troops and planes outside of the country.

        In the above case – 70 interventions by French intelligence means that muslims from Nato protected village Srebrenica, 70 times for 3 years attacked nearby Serbian villages and killed about 5000 Serbian civilians and every time escaped back under Nato protection. The muslim commander Oric, published the book where described how they attacked Serbian villages. He described in detail how he personally killed a Serbian judge, firstly digging his eyes by knife and after that cutting his head. There are photos and films how muslims and mujahidins cut Serbian heads and played soccer with them. In spite of this published book and many witnesses, ICC found him ‘not guilty’ for killing of thousands of Serbs.

        US and Nato needed to make their bombings really ‘humanitarian’ and because created strong global propaganda for half-brainers to present that they protect endangered minorities. In addition, they wanted to convince the global muslim world that they are protectors of muslims, not their enemy. Consequently, their CIA created kangaroo court – ICC, accused and charged only Serbs for all atrocities but neither Bosnian muslims nor, later on, Kosovo Albanians muslims.

        1. Those Serbians did take part directly in the genocide.But the Western world indirectly organized…not directly. They wanted that genocide. They intentionally let those Serbian militants to commit the Srebrenica massacre

  3. Can you guys do a Browncast with an Indian urban development specialist? A lot of questions come to mind:

    1. Why do cities in the Indian subcontinent look so…haphazard compared to other parts of the world or even Asia? Even back in 1990 when many other countries had the same level of development as India now, their cities were more organized.

    2. There is a certain unaesthetic overall appearance if one were to see a usual panorama of an Indian city, are officials in local and state governments generally less concerned with how a city will look after 20-25 years, is it due to a cultural lack of imagination?

    3. Centralization vs decentralization when it comes to state power over revenues generated mostly in cities.

    4. Following point 3, conflicts of interest between elected legislators who are more committed to diverting funds to rural constituencies.

    5. The lack of a metropolis in the Gangetic belt between Delhi and Calcutta and the reasons behind it, why weren’t Lucknow and Patna developed along those lines by the UP and Bihar governments?

    6. In terms of monuments, India historically had some exquisite architecture that couldn’t be made without top-rate talent. I understand that these were mostly commissioned by kings. What changed with modern India? Did Soviet influence make the GoI prioritize brutalist design in public sector office buildings?

    7. Environmental issues such as overuse of subsurface water and planning landfills/ waste disposal. In many cities garbage is dumped in cul-de-sacs and less-visited roads, out in the open, with nary a care for hygiene and public health.

    8. The roles of the elected mayor vis-a-vis municipal commissioner from the civil service who has the real power. Is good administration discouraged by the political atmosphere?

    9. Awareness and participation of local body elections in cities and the point of it all. Much of the middle-to-upper class in the cities don’t even know what the local government does.

    10. Corruption when handing out infrastructure and development contracts and the transparency of the processes involved.

    11. Politics in terms of renaming streets and naming buildings after old leaders to show loyalty to the present-day higher-ups.

    12. Prospects of Indian cities in the future: would they develop the same aesthetic as cities in East/Southeast Asia by 2050? Or would some cities go the historic Europe route and have redeveloped old cities in the centre surrounded by the taller business districts on the outer zones?

    1. + 1 to Ronen’s suggestion

      Also, adding some questions of my own

      1. Water pollution – In most countries, river side is prime real estate. In India, it is avoided due to constant smell and garbage. Lakes like Bangalore’s Bellandur are catching fire due to industrial effluents. What’s the way forward?

      2. Air pollution – The subcontinent has cities with some of the most polluted air in the world. How do we tackle this?
      Is there a way forward?

      3. Public hygiene – While we’ve had some success in controlling open air defecation, a lot of problems remain.
      For example, in most north Indian cities and some south Indian ones, you can’t walk a few steps without noticing a reddish paan spit on the ground or on the side of the walls.
      This is a huge public health issue in more ways than one and looks extremely bad aesthetically.
      How do we fix these things?

      4. Traffic
      Indian cities have the highest traffic congestion in the world.
      ( https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/ )
      This is after we have built some world class metro rail systems.
      How do we fix this? Will self-driving cars fix it? Do we need more public transport? How will this play out in a post-covid world?

    2. You are thinking systematically. Nobody with political or bureaucratic power in India does that; they are all looking out for narrow pecuniary benefits. Hence everything is haphazard. Real-estate developers and slumlords keep bribing municipal officials to do what they want, resource-crunches or aesthetics be damned.

      Then there is the complete chaos of a headless bunch of municipal agencies who seem to magically never coordinate among themselves. I don’t know if you’ve ever visited Bangalore, but our roads are never in completely driveable condition. Multiple agencies seem to perennially have the need (or urge) to lay pipelines and cables, and our roads are the inevitable casualties. They get dug up, stuff is laid, roads are filled back with an unholy mix of stones, concrete, brick, and mud that’s a real pleasure to drive on during rains. Someone comes along a few weeks later and lays tar over this mess, not even bothering to level the load first. The very next week, we see another agency digging up the same piece of turf. And this has been going on and on like Groundhog day ever since I moved to this city.

      Personally, I love the climate here (second only to Southern California in my experience) and also like the people in general. Otherwise, I’d consider moving.

  4. There are two interested words, mentioned in the neighbouring On Partition thread. They are – Punjabiyat and Kashmiriyat, both finish with IYAT. I could be wrong, but I think that only few such words exist in English and they are most likely imported from other languages. I am not sure about other SA languages.

    However, there are hundreds of such words in Serbian language. I would be interested where above mentioned toponym extensions came from. For example, there are Serbian words – Matriyarhat (matriarchy), Patriyarhat (patriarchy), Plagiyat (plagiarism), Comesariyat (commissary), Opiyat (various substances, alcohol, drugs), Sekretariyat (secretariat), etc.

    <<<<<<<<<<

    PS: The previous comment was sent to On Partition thread, but it was censored??? So far, only one my comment (about Mahabharata rivers) was censored (by Khanishka). If this one was done by Slapsie, it is pretty disappointing. I do understand this as a payback for my earlier, between the lines, half-joke-speculation about his orientation. Namely, after several months in hiding, Slapsie finally gathered courage and came out as an OIT guy. I would be happy to apologize if I am (hopefully) wrong.

  5. I want to know about the truthfulness of the Khazar Theory. Is it true that modern day Israeli jews are actually descendants of Khazars from Central Asia and that they are not the original children of Israel? What do genetic evidences say?

      1. So based on genetic evidence, who are the ancestors of modern jews and Israelis? Are they the original children of Israel? If not then where are the original children of Israel now and who are they?

        1. Land of Israel – (Wiki) More precise geographical borders are given Exodus 23:31 which describes borders as marked by the Red Sea, the “Sea of the Philistines” i.e., the Mediterranean, and the “River”, the Euphrates, the traditional furthest extent of the Kingdom of David.[26][27]

          <<<<<<<<<<<<<

          Very well! I can see that you are very research hungry pundit. Can you try to answer some questions for the beginning?
          Who were Philistines? Last year the whole worldwide press wrote as the top world sensation about discovery of the Philistinian ancient town Ashkelon. Where Philistines originated?
          Where Jews went after they were expelled from Egypt? Who gave them a refuge? What was the name of this peninsula at that time? What was the name of the mountain peak where Moses got 10 commandments from the God (still is the same name)? From which mountain peak he watched the Promised land? Etc, etc…

        2. By “children of Israel”, I mean the descendants of Yakob/Jacob i.e. those ancient Israeli jewish tribes. BTW I read somewhere that there are genetic evidences both against and supporting the Khazar theory.

    1. If you are interested in this, I can recommend the fiction book Dictionary of the Khazars (by Milorad Pavic) from 1984 which was translated in more than 40 languages. It is written in a dictionary form in three colours – Red (Christian), Green (Moslem) and Yellow (Jewish version) and can be found on Internet for free. You can also read wiki.

      A national bestseller, Dictionary of the Khazars in 100 000 words, was cited by The New York Times Book Review as one of the best books of the year. Written in two versions, male and female, Dictionary is the imaginary book of knowledge of the Khazars, a people who flourished somewhere beyond Transylvania between the seventh and ninth centuries. Eschewing conventional narrative and plot, this lexicon novel combines the dictionaries of the world’s three major religions with entries that leap between past and future, featuring three unruly wise men, a book printed in poison ink, suicide by mirrors, a chimerical princess, a sect of priests who can infiltrate one’s dreams, romances between the living and the dead, and much more.

      There is no easily discerned plot in the conventional sense, but the central question of the book (the mass religious conversion of the Khazar people) is based on a historical event generally dated to the last decades of the 8th century or the early 9th century when the Khazar royalty and nobility converted to Judaism, and part of the general population followed.[2] The book says that the Khazar ruler invited three scholars from different religions to interpret his dream and who offers the best explanation, he and his people will collectively convert to his religion.

      The novel takes the form of three cross-referenced mini-encyclopedias, sometimes contradicting each other, each compiled from the sources of one of the major Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism). Every version says and provide evidence that Khazars converted to their religion.

  6. I’m interested in starting an OIT orientated blog, I can write pieces myself but would be good to get more contributors on-board.

    If you would be interested in being involved in such a project pls get in contact at the email [email protected].

    It would be good if know about any of History, Linguistics, Genetics etc but also contemporary issues relating to the intersection of geopolitics, nationalism, identity, culture, art, western imperialism and colonialism, basically all contemporary issues that go back to Indo-European via Greco-Roman and Germanic societies.

    1. Good luck with this project. It would be interesting to know if you will consider opposite opinions and arguments, for e.g. AMT? Also, what is your opinion about official world history, falsified or not? What are the Germanic societies? I am just curious – what do you think, was Alexander the Great a Greek?
      All the best.

    2. /ontemporary issues that go back to Indo-European via Greco-Roman/
      IE is just linguistic studies, that doesn’t have ‘contemporary issues’ of social or political varieties

      1. I don’t think that the guy is rude or impolite for ignoring responses on his invitation. I cannot remember what his contribution was long time ago, but the impression is that it wasn’t so positive. It is unfortunate that my anticipation that, after rejecting my invitation for a dialog to smoothly overcome AMT/OIT divide, the later one will finish as lunatics. The transient phase is some kind of autistic behaviour when they start losing the common sense. There is also a lack of the expected pride when they finally come out as an OIT. Anyway, good lack to them although they are not interested in the facts than to follow self-fulfilling prophesy.

  7. Woke Pakistani and the New York riots
    In a new video from May 30, Rahman claimed de Blasio should have pulled back the city’s law enforcement like Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis did.

    ‘I think the mayor should have pulled his police officers back in the way the mayor in Minneapolis did, she said, while standing near the Barclays Center in Brooklyn.

    ‘I think the mayor should have done that, because if he really cared about his police officers, he should have realized that it’s not worth them getting hurt.’
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8393601/Lawyer-hurled-Molotov-cocktail-NYPD-van-custody.html

  8. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/02/we-all-live-on-campus-now.html

    “Marxism with a patina of liberalism on top is still Marxism — and it’s as hostile to the idea of a free society as white nationalism is. So if you wonder why our discourse is now so freighted with fear, why so many choose silence as the path of least resistance, or why the core concepts of a liberal society — the individual’s uniqueness, the primacy of reason, the protection of due process, an objective truth — are so besieged, this is one of the reasons.

    The goal of our culture now is not the emancipation of the individual from the group, but the permanent definition of the individual by the group. We used to call this bigotry. Now we call it being woke. You see: We are all on campus now.”

  9. Kumail Nanjiani, woke Pakistani, is leading the mob against Cornell Professor Dave Collum for defending Buffalo police officers.

    But in the world of instant outrage, there’s no time for facts. Collum’s Tweet, within minutes of being posted, had been re-tweeted by comedian and actor Kumail Nanjiani, who has more than 3 million Twitter followers.
    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/cornell-professor-dave-collum-publicly-shamed-university-defending-buffalo-police

    Dropping this bomb onto the actor’s followers set off a nuclear reaction, with hundreds of replies and re-tweets calling for Collum to lose his job and for Cornell to punish the professor: all for just speaking his opinion.

    1. At least they won’t be killed like in India. Ever wonder why “standup comedians” make jokes only about Hindus? I personally don’t care but I want to bring out a point. If you criticize the religion of piece or it’s prophet then all you’ll get is death.

  10. Ceslav Milos, WHAT IS KETMAN?

    (Google translated)

    What is a ketman? I found his description in the book Gobinoa Religions et Philosophies dans l’Asie Centrale. Gobino spent several years in Persia and he cannot be denied the gift of insightful observation, even if it is not necessary agree with the conclusions of this very dangerous writer. The coincidences between the ketmans and the customs practiced in the lands of the New Faith are so astonishing that I will allow myself longer quotations.

    According to the people of the Muslim East, the possessor should not expose his person, his property and his dignity to the blindness, madness and malice of those whom God has pleased to be mislead and keep them in error. ” So, you should keep quiet about your true beliefs if possible.

    “Still, Gobino says, there are cases when silence is not enough, when it can be considered a confession. Then one should not hesitate. Not only should he publicly renounce his views then, but it is recommended to resort to all cunning just to deceive the opponent. Then they will confess all the religions that can be liked, perform all the rituals that are considered the most meaningless, forge their own books, use all means to mislead. In that way, a person will gain great pleasure and merit for protecting himself and his own, for not exposing precious faith to disgusting contact with an unbeliever, and finally for deceiving the other and strengthening him in delusion, causing him shame and spiritual misery, which he deserved it. ”

    “Ketman fills with pride the one who applies it. Thanks to the ketman, the believer reaches a state of permanent supremacy over the one whom he deceived, even if he was a minister or a powerful king; for a man who applies ketman to him, he is above all a poor blind man; he is deprived of access to the only right path and does not even doubt it; however, to you, ragged and hungry, who seemingly tremble humbly before the vest of deceived power, your eyes are full of light; you walk in splendor before your enemies. You mock an unintelligent being; you disarm a dangerous beast. What joys at the same time!”

    1. What part of Turkey is Ozil’s family from? I believe some places in Turkey have very little photo Turkic ancestry like NE Turkey.

      It is a tragedy though what happened to Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks (to a lesser extent).

      Iranian Azeris are the only Turks who respect the majority of their ancestry.

  11. Looking with fascination and horror (and popcorn in hand) at the riots across the pond, I should have realised that it was only a matter of time before they made their way to Albion and the rest of W Europe. After all, isn’t England the outpost of Pax Americana in Europe? After the demonstrations in London (is the covid lockdown over?) I knew it would only be a matter of time before the statues started falling here, and right on cue Colston fell in Bristol. That used to be on my cycle commute a few years ago.

    This probably marks the end of American (and Western?) moral authority. When you have China and Iran lecture you on racism and equality, is there any hope of salvaging pride?

    There’s a special place in hypocrisy hell for celeb and middle class Desi wokesters. The same folk who trip over each other in condemning the police brutality against GF would snigger and lol at the police using lathis against lockdown violators in India. The #blm folks with their fairness creams.

    1. Nobody died. UK police killed a total of 3 people last year, there is not much pent-up anger against them unlike the ridiculous USA. Western Europe is letting its hair down after the lockdown and doing full-on larping.

  12. Although long skeptical, i completely underestimated how toxic the anti-racism movement was. Unlike the 60s radicals, these people have a genuinely large social base and the amplification of social media.

  13. Just came across this clip wherein this ex-USSR apparatchik alleges that some Indian journalists were all to willing to destabilize India for mortal glory: titles; promises of power if communism succeeded in India. I think he also says that the USSR murdered some of these Indian journalists and communist agents because they became too potent for the communist revolution. Something to think about as the west faces upheaval.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvXwuZ-bok&feature=youtu.be

    1. So a there is a theory that since the war coincided with Cuban missile crisis , Chinese (who were in USSR camp) were a bit hesitant on going full hog.

      Of course they didn’t relent on Aksai China since it was not populated while there was an immediate usefulness of it linking both Xinjiang as well as work on the Pak China Karokoram highway had already started.

      1. China’s moves are based partly on potential/actual economic value of a region and strategic long term moves which will help their economy.
        In 1962 , there were not keen on economic potential, etc as their economy itself was weak. So , they voluntarily withdrew . Now, the game is very different. The economic appetite and ambitions of China is huuuge. That is why they have unilaterally drawn 200 miles from their coast as ‘their’ territory in brazen violation of Maritime Laws, made artificial islands near Phillippines to base their airforce and military.
        Now they think there is an economic potential to Aksai Chin and it’s LAC with India and they may want to find an alternate route via Aksai Chin/Ladakh to their roads and investments in Pakistan. That is why they have become aggressive and they will continue to be aggressive.
        India , having learnt it’s lesson in 1962, will stand it’s ground whatever the cost.
        Pakistan will only be a running underdog to Chinese. In pakistan, China has found a willing auxiliary

    1. Thanks Francesco. Nice to see that you survived the Covid and you are back in saddle. You should come more often here. To clarify some terminology. The term ‘Slavic’ is used after the 7.cAC. Now, it assumes East European languages and nations – Serbian, Russian, Polish, Czechs, etc. Before the 7.c.AC, for thousands of years there was only – Serbian. Russian name first appears in the 8th cAC and other hundreds of years later. It means that Proto-Slavic means – Serbian. It is similar to the use of the term ‘Indo-European’ but this is another story. Sanskrit was brought by Aryans to SA. Now, the question remains where the suffixes of the names – KashmiriYAT and PunjabiYAT came from. You are saying that they came from Proto-Slavic (I agree). The conclusion is that Proto-Slavics (i.e. Serbs and Serbian language) came to SA, the most likely in a form of Aryans, what is another confirmation of the origin of Aryans. It is not extraordinary conclusion because there are simply no other candidates.

      Ciao bellissimo!

    2. All of the words you list, including the -at-suffix, are loans from Indo-European languages not of the Slavic branch. The terms are artificial educated Graeco-Latin probably borrowed via German. If a similar suffix for deriving nouns originally existed in the Slavic languages, this is because of common Indo-European heritage, as the link you provide makes abundantly clear. Note that some Semitic languages have an -at suffix for nouns, too (with a different etymology). Whatever the -at suffix is, it is anything but specifically Serbian.

      1. I did not say that -at is exclusively the Serbian suffix, although, it may really is. I asked if someone knows especially in SA, to find out where some people got idea to coin the terms – Kashmiriyat and Punjabiyat. You could provide some examples from Semitic languages. It is possible that they came from Serbian because Aryans were Serbian speaking tribes (any objection?).

        However, it seems you are lost in the time. German language is less than 600 years old and it has heavy borrowings from much older – Serbian. You probably know that in today’s Germany lived Serbs and that almost 70% of Germans are genetically Serbs (even Adolf H. recognised this in his book). Latin language is an artificial language, originally spoken only in Lazio province. This language was also formed in a Serbian language environment. Initially, Greek language was NOT so-called Indo-European. Influenced by language of indigenous Serbs Pelasgians who lived in today’s Greece before Greek colonists came there, it became ‘Indo-European’. If you are talking about Slavic languages, you are talking about the period after 7.c.AC, probably more than 1000 years later. What is the ‘common Indo-European heritage’? What does it mean ‘Indo-European’? Serbian language is older than Hebrew, Greek and Latin (English and Germans are much younger languages) with the oldest alphabet in the world.

        A question for you (linguists avoid to give the answer but you may know) – which language(s) was (were) spoken in Europe in 2000 BC?

        1. PS: I am glad that finally one pundit girl after long time (the last one was Rose) made a comment here. In addition, it seems that she agrees that Aryans were Serbian r1a speakers or, at least, she has no any objection to this fact/assertion.

  14. For a while I have used Mahal 2017’s paper as a reference for Jat yDNA. However it seems that the evaluation didn’t look for specific SNPs so the results might be quite inaccurate. Looking over at other (unofficial) results, western Jats barely have any Q at all (under 1%) as opposed to Mahal’s overall result of 15.6%. Looks like Mahal might have misidentified a lot of R2 as Q.

    1. How much Q1a and Q1b is there in South Asia? And do you know if we also have other IE haplogroups like R1b-Z2103, R1a-Z283, and I2a?

      Also do you agree with everyone that y P is SE Asian in origin? What about y K2b, K and IJK? Do you think y P was originally associated with ENA or some sort of crown Eurasian at the base of of WHG/ANE-ENA?

      Also sorry to be annoying but any more info on “Anatolian” admixture in South Indian tribals? It’d be interesting if it was related to y H (which I hope was widespread as far as Bengal, Assam, Nepal and Sri Lanka before Sino-Tibetans and Austro-Asiatics moved in).

      1. >How much Q1a and Q1b is there in South Asia
        Not much. The predicted Q % using STR as Mahal used was 15%, while the actual Q % in his samples using SNPs was like 1.5% or something like that.

        > And do you know if we also have other IE haplogroups like R1b-Z2103, R1a-Z283, and I2a?
        There are yes. You can look at this thread for details.
        https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14325-Y-Haplogroups-amongst-Punjabi-Jatts

        >Also do you agree with everyone that y P is SE Asian in origin?
        The most basal P is found in some 100 year old Great Andamanese man. So while it may not have formed IN SEAsia and moved out of it, it would have formed in a population like the aboriginal SEAsian Onge and Negrito type of people. They might have lived as north as Siberia since there is Onge-like ancestry in Jomon.
        https://www.yfull.com/tree/P/
        The next most basal P, P1 is found in the Philippines and to me these two things make it seem like P and P1 are of some sort of ENA (IMO Australasian/southern type ENA, thought that is just my guess) in origin.

        >What about y K2b, K and IJK? Do you think y P was originally associated with ENA or some sort of crown Eurasian at the base of of WHG/ANE-ENA?
        K2b is ENA if you ask me, K is probably crown Eurasian (pre-east-west split) or early ENA (leaning towards the former) while IJK would be crown as well. I think that IJK would have formed after the crown Eurasians separated from basal Eurasians.

        >Also sorry to be annoying but any more info on “Anatolian” admixture in South Indian tribals? It’d be interesting if it was related to y H (which I hope was widespread as far as Bengal, Assam, Nepal and Sri Lanka before Sino-Tibetans and Austro-Asiatics moved in).
        Haven’t asked him yet, I will do so over this week.

        1. The link says:

          “The Jats represent a large ethnic community that has inhabited the northwest region of India and Pakistan for several thousand years. It is estimated the community has a population of over 123 million people. Many historians and academics have asserted that the Jats are descendants of Aryans, Scythians, or other ancient people that arrived and lived in northern India at one time…”

          They have R1a (Nikola Tesla) and I2 (Novak Djokovic).
          I said already couple times that they are Serbian cousins.

  15. Thanks. Very interesting.

    The modern diversity does suggest a SE Asian origin. However, I remember reading on anthrogenica some user named Alan said the archaeology favors a west Asia to Siberia migration for K and P.

    Is there some chance K2b was crown Eurasian too? Or did east eurasians and west eurasian split by then?

    How does Ust Ishim come into play? I believe he is crown Eurasian but somewhat closer to ENA. However, I don’t think he has Denisovian ancestry so its hard to say he was a migrant from SE Asia although its possible the Denisovian was diluted out (but to 0? idk)

    What y lineage would we associate with the Basal Eurasian in the zagros btw?

    1. I understand the case for K in west Asia but why P? I don’t know about where K2b exactly came from, you can look at the ages on yfull to see if it might predate a certain split or not. Ultimately all east and west Eurasian lineages (sans the non-crown inputs later on) would come from crown Eurasians. IDK when the crown Eurasians exactly existed so I don’t have a definite answer to if K2b originated in crown Eurasians or ENA.

      Ust Ishim was supposed to be equally related if you take away the basal Eurasian in Europeans. Could be like a non-east and non-west individual which was a dead end.

      There isn’t a backmigration from SEAsia. The argument is that the K2b carrier group was an early ancestor of SEAsians and one part of this group, instead of going to SEAsia went to Siberia instead.

      IDK about the yDNA of the basal in Zagros. If I had to guess I would say just G for now. The basal + proto WHG mixture would have happened quite long ago, before the LGM so things get jumbled up such as J (which I think is proto WHG in origin) ending up in CHG and Iran and G (which might be a non-crown Eurasian lineage) ending up in Anatolia.

  16. Thanks for the comments. Hopefully Ancient DNA from South Asia, SE Asia, Central Asia and North Eurasia will clear this up.

    I guess his argument was the push that resulted in P was from West Asia. Maybe it was still K or K2 at that point.

    And what do you mean K2b going to SE Asia? Isn’t the argument it originated there? DO you think there is a chance it originated somewhere like India or Bengal and the migrated east and west from there. I also wonder if K1 originated in India.

    1. >And what do you mean K2b going to SE Asia? Isn’t the argument it originated there?
      The argument is that it either originated there or K2b had a broader range which shrank over an unknown period of time (some kind of an extinction). D has unusual distributions which could be due to the same process of range reduction. Won’t be surprised if D and K2b groups had some link 40,000 years ago (because of the range reduction).

  17. How does Tianyuan man play into this? Someone was saying he’s fully East Eurasian and ancestral to Yana?

  18. how does Tianyuan come into play? I read he was fully East Asian and ancestral to Yana?

    1. That has been confusing me. If Tianyuan is a representative of a broader population then where did the K2b in the east Asian group go? Either we will see a more complete record showing a diminishing frequency of K2b in early east Asians or we will see that the interplay between Tianyuan and Yana is much more complex. The Salkhit denisovan paper already puts Tianyuan at a different branch from the one that interacted with Yana. More DNA could show even more complex interactions. I won’t be holding my breath for this, but I have a hunch that DNA from the Himalayas and Tibet around 40,000 years ago could shed some more light on this.

  19. I guess ENA in Yana gives credence to the SE Asian origin theory of K2b and P. But I think there was an issue with the time separation there from what I read.
    I guess that’s the problem with low sample sizes. K2b could be an introgression into Tianyuan’s population and P could be an introgression into Yana. It could be chance that we found these lineages among them. We don’t know what the majority of their tribes belonged to.
    Do you think Central Asia and India had a role in K2b?
    Also if H is Anatolian associated what about C1b? Crown Eurasian or AASI?

    On a side note

    Also interesting https://imgur.com/a/Ie4ukyf

    I don’t think Tajiks have any y D. Wonder they their ancestors were able to settle the Parimirs but couldn’t expand south along the Himalayas.

  20. Someone also suggested their were Caucasian like individuals (as in straight out of Georgia) in Central Asia. I’d love to know how they got there.

  21. https://adnaera.com/2018/10/25/the-population-history-of-northeastern-siberia-since-the-pleistocene-sikora-et-al-2018-preprint/

    Is this the Anatolian component?

    From the comments

    “Figures 2C & 3D show the presence of a South Asian ‘lilac’ component at k=15 that is maximised in South Indian tribal groups (figure S10). Here, in this paper, this ‘AASI’ component is also found in CHG and various steppe groups.”

    Or is that AASI?

    The comments there especially on the relationship between Anatolia_N, Iran_N,CHG, Sarazam and ANE and AASI are super interesting. THat’s not even accounting for how Basal Eurasian and Crown Eurasian play into this and (ENA proper)

  22. Pretty disappointing that BigW Bodybuilder classifies the Ode to Brown Joy in last OT as a troll (though – good) work.

  23. I wonder what Basal Eurasian looked like in terms of phenotype.

    Also y C5 in Iran? AASI in Northern Iran?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazanderani_people#Haplogroups

    Speaking of Basal Eurasian its ridiculous how much “diversity” Turks and Russians added to Iran and Central Asia. There’s a province in NE Iran with a mixture of Iranian speakers and Turkmens and even Kazakhs.

    I envy the homogenous nature of European and NE Asian countries. We have ethnic groups in South Asia, Central Asia and Iran that are a literal reminder of invasion and racial cucking ie Hazaras, Kazakhs, Turkmen, Siddis, Anglo-Indians, Austro Asiatics etc

    I can’t imagine how Armenians feel.

  24. I have researched about the genetics of pakistani pathans, Here are the few things which i have found:
    I am comparing Pakistani Pathans with least west eurasian shifted south asian group(Tamil)
    =>Pakistani pathans are comfortably genetically more closer to Tamil than they are to any european ethnic group
    =>Pakistani pathans are more closer to Iranians than they are to tamil.
    =>Pakistani Pathans are genetically exactly in the middle of Tamil and Northern West Asians(Armenians,Turks and Georgians).
    and also Pathans are also more closer to Tamil than they are to Turkic Central Asians(Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrgyz etc…)
    If i am missing something obvious , Please do correct me guys.

    1. Very interesting.

      Do you know anything about the genetics of Baltis? They speak a Tibetan language and are East Asian admixed. How old is the admixture? One study also found their Y dnas are pretty close to other Pakistanis while another found their mtdnas show Tibetan influence. I’ve never heard of language shift due to maternal gene flow and maternal gene flow with paternal gene flow so are those studies wrong?

    2. Interesting indeed.

      Do you think the Indus valley component is playing a part? What would happen if you replace tamil with oriya (mid caste ) people?

      I maybe completely wrong since I have kot don’t any analysis and all info comes from reading on these topics here.

    3. @Akhilesh

      A few points of correction.

      But before all of that, I’ll note that of the 23 Pakistani Pashtun individuals sampled for the purposes of the HGDP, 7 behave like western Punjabis. And one sample seems to be drawn from an individual of partial Hazara ancestry (or perhaps a full Turkic Central Asian mislabeled as a “Pathan”). The rest of the 15 fit well within what we’ve seen from more recent projects (most of these 15 samples cluster right alongside the Tarklani Pashtuns from the tribal areas). When looking at fst distances, we must not forget that 7 of these 23 samples resemble Punjabis much more than they resemble other Pashtuns.

      Anyway, here it goes:

      “=>Pakistani pathans are comfortably genetically more closer to Tamil than they are to any european ethnic group”

      South Indians are diverse. Some are basically West Eurasians (Tamil Brahmins and company, around 70% West Eurasian, 30% ENA), and some are basically ASI (Paniyar and company, around 70% ENA, 30% West Eurasian).

      We’ll assume that the Piramalai Kallar are a reasonable point of comparison.

      The HGDP Pashtuns have an fst distance of 0.019 with the Piramalai Kallar.

      The HGDP Pashtuns have an fst distance of 0.015 with Moldovans. An fst distance of 0.016 with Greeks, Macedonians (Slavic), Erzya (Volga Finns), and Moksha (Volga Finns). The distances are 0.017 with Germans + Hungarians + French + Crotian, 0.018 with English + Dutch, etc.

      So they are a noticeably closer to Balkanites (and some populations in Russia) than they are towards what I’d assume are the most common sort of populations in southern India (then again, I know virtually nothing about South Indian ethnic/caste divisions and demography). And overall, the Pakistani Pashtuns in question (and again, 7 of the 23 samples are genetically Punjabis) are slightly closer to most Europeans than they are towards the South Indian population in question (almost genetically equidistant between Western Europeans and the South Indian population in question).

      “=>Pakistani pathans are more closer to Iranians than they are to tamil.”

      True; 0.006 with Iranians vs 0.019 with Piramalai Kallar. Much closer to Iranians than South Indians.

      “=>Pakistani Pathans are genetically exactly in the middle of Tamil and Northern West Asians(Armenians,Turks and Georgians).”

      This is as inaccurate as your European comparison.

      Armenian-Pakistani Pashtun 0.013, Turk-Pakistani Pashtun 0.09, Georgian-Pakistani Pashtun 0.014. So again, closer to northern West Asians than South Indians.

      “and also Pathans are also more closer to Tamil than they are to Turkic Central Asians(Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrgyz etc…)”

      Uzbek-Pakistani Pashtun is 0.011, so closer to Uzbeks than to South Indians. Turkmen-Pakistani Pashtun is 0.009, so even closer.

      And for whatever it’s worth, compared to Pamiri Tajiks (the only remaining West Eurasians of Turan) the distance is only 0.005

      “If i am missing something obvious , Please do correct me guys.”

      If you were measuring genetic similarity with something like fst, than your propositions were mostly incorrect.

      I’m guessing that you were looking at Euclidean distances that were based on proportions of ADMIXTURE components?

      Although, I would note that things would look rather different if the South Indian point of comparison were Brahmins or such. But then again, Tamil Brahmins are mostly West Eurasian, they came from the north, and they aren’t the predominant type of population in the region.

      1. idk. fst is really sensitive to effective population size. so i don’t really think that using it with kallars is good, that’s a really drifted population.

        1. @Razib

          That’s a fair point. I focused on the Kallar since those were the only Tamils I have (and Akhilesh specifically had Tamils in mind).

      2. “The HGDP Pashtuns have an fst distance of 0.015 with Moldovans. An fst distance of 0.016 with Greeks, Macedonians (Slavic), Erzya (Volga Finns), and Moksha (Volga Finns). The distances are 0.017 with Germans + Hungarians + French + Crotian, 0.018 with English + Dutch, etc. So they are a noticeably closer to Balkanites (and some populations in Russia) than they are towards what I’d assume are the most common sort of populations in southern India…”

        <<<<<<<<<<<<<
        Obviously, you know little about ‘Balkanities’ otherwise you would know who are recent inventions such as Macedonians (Slavic), majority of Croats and Moldovans, the most of Hungarians, Germans, Greeks…Why, don’t you use the basic haplogroups (R1a, I2) instead of meaningless expressions (e.g. steppe, west Eurasians, indo-europeans, etc)?

  25. Also I’m curious on the genetics of the Brahmaputra plains (Assam). Its just an extension of the Gagentic plains but wikipedia says it was only settled in the past 4-5 k years and first by Sino-tibetans and austo asiatics. Were AASI that backwards that they couldn’t even expand to many regions of South Asia? East Asia is for East Asians but within South Asia ,large regions are for East Asians too. We couldn’t even fully settle the subcontinent.

  26. Also what was in South Siberia and East Central Asia (Tarim Basin when Indo-Europeans expanded there? WSHG? Iran_N? ENA?

    Just curious where the eastern ancestry in Scythian, Sarmatian, CImmerians, Tian Shan Saka, Wusun, Karaskuk and modern pamiris and Xianjing Tajiks comes from.

  27. @ Jatt Scythian
    I think assamese are more east asian shifted than bengalis, like bengalis +10-15% east asian? It is for sure that assamese are more closer to south asians than they are to east asians.

  28. @DaThang

    Interesting comment on K2b here.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/06/perhaps-hint-of-things-to-come_2.html?commentPage=2

    K2b is 45 K. Tianyuan is 42K-39K years old.

    Seems likely it was East Eurasian originally (or maybe crown Eurasian that ended up on the east side of the split but autosomal ancestry can disappear in about a few hundred years so who knows?)

    So either K2b went from a East Eurasian to West Eurasian population or crown eurasian to east eurasian to west eurasian. Less likely would be the branch of K2b ancestral to P went from crown eurasian to west eurasian and east eurasian but the diversity of P is in the east too.

  29. Of course Salkhit is what mixed into Yana not Tianyuan so I’m still confused.

    so crown Eurasian (k2/k2b) -> tianyuan (k2b) -> se asia but the diversity of the rest of K2 is in se asia not near Beijing.

    1. I suggested the opposite as wikipedia suggest sino-tibetans and austro asiatics got there before indo-aryans and aasi being unlikely due to there being no dravidian inluence there.

  30. To add to something that I posted yesterday: looks like all other studies which yielded high % of Q in south Asians used STR as opposed to SNP as well. So those results are suspect as well. Would be nice if someone were to do one of those late 2000s megastudies involving 1000+ samples being analysed based on SNPs but with north Indian minorities since the tribals have already been studied in those big projects.
    Here is my prediction for eastern Jats:
    ~40% L, ~25% R1a, ~12.5% (anywhere between 10 and 15) R2, ~10% J, Below 10% but above 5% H, Less than 5% G and Q each and ~1% T and I2 each.

  31. Even ~1% I2 is a lot of guys with. I’ve never seen an Indian with I2 and even the Jat mentioned in that thread you linked earlier in the thread was I1 (and obviously of colonial origin but then again the British also have I2). Also no R1b?

    I’m also curious on what was present in the Northern Part of EUropean Russia and South Siberia/Tarim basin before Uralic and IE speakers expanded there? Any idea?

      1. But did that actually contribute to South Asians? I thought it was a dead end.

        1% equates to about 400,000 I2s in India. I haven’t seen any Indian pop up as I2 in the old FTDNA projects.

        1. 400,000 in a country of 1.3 billion would be small enough to go undetected. Remember the 1 E1b found in the Roopkund. Though the I in Mahal’s results could easily be a mis-identified J. So I am not investing much trust in the prediction of values around 1%, there might not be any I or T or E at all.

          1. That’s true. I’m hoping SWAT did contribute to us though. That’d be pretty cool.

    1. The original tweet he’s replying to says
      “..rare moments of justice for black and brown people.”

      I wonder what that Colston guy did to brownies.

      1. Stop making sense, and get on the bandwagon bro…

        There are around 100 more statues to be brought down, cant waste time on all this 😛

  32. The thing with woke-ness, is u can never be woke enough.

    Dalrymple thought throwing buzz words like RSS etc will get these people off his back. Perhaps he didn’t get the memo, you can’t outrun ur skin color 😛

    oh my sweet naive William

  33. He can still redeem himself by helping the protestors tear down the now vandalized Gandhi statue in London.

  34. Woke desi starts petition to have UCLA professor fired.

    For one group of students at the University of California Los Angeles’ Anderson School of Management, it was an opportunity to dodge an end-of-year examination. Last week, a group of minority students emailed Professor Gordon Klein, asking him to let black students sit out this week’s exams in light of recent events.

    Klein refused. In an email supposedly from the professor, he explained his issues with the students’ racial grievances.

    “Do you know the names of the classmates that are black?” he allegedly wrote. “How can I identify them, since we’ve been having online classes only? Are there any students that may be of mixed parentage, such as half black-half Asian? What do you suggest I do with respect to them? A full concession or just half?”

    “One last thing strikes me: Remember that MLK famously said that people should not be evaluated based on the ‘color of their skin.’ Do you think that your request would run afoul of MLK’s admonition?”

    The woke mob saw red, and a student named Preet Bains started a petition to have the professor fired. The petition, which describes Klein’s response as “woefully racist,” has attracted nearly 20,000 signatures, and UCLA has apparently sided with the aggrieved students.
    https://www.rt.com/usa/491234-university-professor-fired-racist/

    1. Look up r/UCLA. So many students celebrating the fact that he got fired. And given UCLA’s elite status, some of these students will go on to become part of our political, economic and cultural elite. This country is truly fucked.

      1. I agree with you. I would have thought the worse it gets the more likely white people start voting the way minorities do (as a group). But all I see is people virtue signaling.

        There doesn’t seem to be any hope.

  35. @ Commentator
    If you are comparing kallar with pakistani pathans, pathans are definitely closer to west asians and europeans, because piramallai kallar is an isolated group just like vysya due to long term endogamy, kallars are also very distinct from other south indians
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=1939460599, go to south asian fst
    lets compare fst of kallar with velama(a south indian caste)
    fst =0.0108
    fst of pathan and velama, fst =0.0107
    as you can see clearly that velamas are exactly in the middle of pathan and kallar.
    fst of greek and pathan is 0.0162
    fst of britian and pathan is 0.0191
    as you can see pathans are clearly more closer to velamas than they are to europeans.
    and now iranians
    fst of pathan and iranians is 0.0076
    fst of pathan and armenians is 0.0130
    fst of pathan and turks is 0.010
    fst of pathans and georgians is 0.014.
    fst of pathans and velamas is 0.0107
    so you can clearly see that pathans are almost in between the velamas and northern west asians.
    There are very few isolated groups such as kallars, vysya and other south indian tribals. so you cannot compare them with those population because long term endogamy may lead to genetic drift between population.

  36. @ Commentator
    also compare pathans with srilankan tamils(stu samples) fst =0.0109, so pathans are also in between northern west asians and srilankan tamils.

    1. @Akhilesh

      Genetic similarity is distinct from genetic ancestry (and even the analysis of genetic ancestry can never involve a total explication of actual genealogical ancestry).

      In terms of fst, the Pakistani Pashtun samples from the HGDP might be equidistant between northern West Asians and Sri Lankan Tamils. But here I think we should recognize that fst distances don’t come even remotely close to explaining (or even helping with exhaustively describing) all of the dimensions of genetic relatedness involved between these populations.

      For example, the HGDP Pashtuns are around 85%-90% West Eurasian (on average, when excluding the Turkic-like sample, but keeping the Punjabi-like ones. If we cut out the Punjabi-like ones, the average is much more solidly 90%-92%). Armenians are around 95%-100% West Eurasian, definitely closer to 100% (and in this context, West Eurasian means any combination of ANE-related, WHG-related, Iran_N-related, and Anatolia_N/Levant_N/Natufian-related. We will ignore the fact that both ANE and WHG already had substantial ENA admixture, and that Levant_N/Natufian had something African in affinity, more basal than Anatolia_N’s basal). Sri Lankan Tamils are probably somewhere around 55%-65% West Eurasian (probably a little less than 60%).

      Based on the general proportion of West Eurasian ancestry, the HGDP Pashtuns are very close to Armenians. So one would expect them to be quite closer to Armenians in fst. But, Armenians have a ton of Anatolia_N and Levant_N admixture, and very little Steppe_MLBA. Pashtuns have a ton of West Eurasian ancestry from a source basal to Iran_N (and shared with Tamils), substantial Steppe_MLBA, and very little Levant_N-related admixture. Couple that with 10% AASI (shared with the 45%-35% AASI of Sri Lankan Tamils), and you have a situation where the HGDP Pashtuns are equidistant between Armenians and Sri Lankan Tamils, despite being much closer to Armenians in their general proportion of West Eurasian ancestry (since it’s a matter of different streams of West Eurasian ancestry).

      Which is why Iranians are closer to the Pakistani Pashtuns than the Sri Lankan Tamils. Like Armenians, they are 95%-100% West Eurasian, but their West Eurasian streams of ancestry are much more similar to Pashtuns than the Armenian-Pashtun comparison.

      I suppose that what I’m trying to say is that the interpretation of fst should always involve some caution.

      1. How much ENA is there in WHG and ANE? I’m guessing its related to y C and y P respectively? Although most WHG were I2.

        1. The Aurignacian C isn’t ENA. Pretty sure that the split time between it and ENA C is comparable to or greater than the split between IJ and K leading to K2.

          1. Then I’m confused about the ENA in WHG the user above mentioned.

            If K2 is ENA (I still want confirmation but there’s a good argument for it) it makes sense for there to ENA in ANE. BUt WHG were all C or I2 so far.

          2. That’s what I thought but then where does the ENA in WHG the above user mentioned come from? WHG were almost all C and I2.

  37. @ Commentator
    Fair point mate
    I think the shared AASI(atleast they have some) and Iranian related ancestry is what getting pakistani pasthuns closer to Tamils.
    But anyway we are comparing pakistani pathans with Tamils(Least west eurasian south asian group), If we compare pathans with average indian then pakistani pathans will be surely closer to Indians than they are to other west asians. That is what I am trying to tell.

  38. @ Commentator
    and also
    what do you think is the fst distance between pathans and iraqi arabs?
    I think it will be more than the distance between pathans and armenians?

  39. @ Commentator
    are you sure that fst distance between pakistani pathans and uzbeks is only 0.011, I thought it would be higher like 0.015 or something. I think uzbek samples which you are having are more west eurasian shifted than the normal uzbeki?. Generally uzbeks are 60% west eurasian and 40% east eurasian

  40. Wasn’t LaBrana C and WHG? I honestly feel like people are making stuff up at this point. Somehow there’s ENA in WHG but no uniparental markers to account for it.

    Also Y K2b/P is East Eurasian and accounts for the ENA shift of ANE but what is the original Y dna of the West Eurasian portion of ANE?

    1. LaBrana’s C is descended from the old Aurignacian C1a2. The notion of ENA in WHG comes from their comparison with the earliest west Eurasians. If Ust Ishim has none of the basal Eurasian known of the lack of neanderthal ancestry, then WHG are more eastern shifted than the early west Eurasians who were C1a2 carriers.

      >Also Y K2b/P is East Eurasian and accounts for the ENA shift of ANE but what is the original Y dna of the West Eurasian portion of ANE?

      We don’t know yet since we don’t know who the west Eurasian ancestors of ANE were, but I’d wager that they were C1a of some kind as well. Who knows, maybe they were C1a1 instead and the very low presence of C1a1 in east Eurasia could be a faint signal of the early west Eurasian contact which was reciprocated as the yDNA K2b2 transfer. I say this because C-M8 has a very recent TMRCA- barely 12,000 years, in comparison to the formation age of 46,000+ years, so there is a huge blank where almost anything can fit, especially with the huge presence of C1a in early west Eurasians.

      There is a mild east Eurasian shift in the Goyet Aurignacian specifically however that could be chalked up to his mtDNA M.

  41. Its possible that ANE was originally C1a but it just seems ridiculous that every single ANE related sample has popped up some derivative of K2b (Yana x 2, Malta) and even Ust-Ishim ended up being the related K2a?

    I read someone arguing that K2b could have been shared by both populations but that seems unlikely to me. Do you think that’s possible?

    1. There are very few early ane related samples only 2 or 3. We’ll see c1a pop up eventually. the reason why didn’t survive is probably because c1a ane ended up being in the wrong places during the lgm and so they got wiped out while r and q specifically happened to be in the places that would become refugias.

      1. We’ll see. Do you know if there are any samples coming out that would prove this?

        What do you think of my second question? K2b being shared by both ANE and ENA or being crown eurasian? I have my doubts but its an interesting theory.

        1. I don’t know about any upcoming studies on the matter. And my current stance of K2(b) being ENA is mostly based on known ancient samples, there isn’t a single pure west Eurasian one with K2b as of now. K2b popping up in a very old (40,000+ ybp) pure west Eurasian would be big news if such a thing exists.

    1. that is the oldest one on record so far

      as for aasi being backward, i dont think so, it is just one of the many australoid groups with this one specialized to india, there was another one in tibet as well

  42. I’m also curious on the spread of Tibetan to Gilgit Baltistan when Baltis are mostly like regular Pakistanis in terms of Ydna. I know Razib said this tibetan admixture is also found in other north indian and north pakistani populations. Is it associated with ydna O2a? I don’t recall much of that. Did tibetans beat AASI to these regions? Why was AASI so backwards then? Same question for the Brahmaputra valley/Assam and Ladakh (minus Kargil)!

    Also what do you think of the idea that AASI is a admixed component?

  43. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4755386/

    “It is commonly believed that the earliest residents of Ladakh were the Mons of Indian descent and Dards from Iran resulting in a composite Indo-Aryan heritage”

    Doesn’t make sense. Also wtf is a Mon?

    “From the 87 total binary genetic makers tested in the 209 Ladakh males, 24 paternal lineages were identified (Figure 1). Of the ten major Y haplogroups (C, D, G, H, J, L, N, O, Q and R) detected in the Ladakh population, the most abundant is the D haplogroup comprising 32% of the individuals. This haplogroup is followed in decreasing order of frequency by R (22%), O (19%) and H (11%). Haplogroups J, N and Q were each found in 4% of the Ladakh males and lower levels of L (2%), C (1%) and G (1%) were also detected. Among the 37 Eurasian populations surveyed for the major Y-chromosomal haplogroups, Ladakh along with Southern Iran (also at 10 haplogroups) is second only to Pakistan (at 12 haplogroups) with respect to the number of haplogroups represented (Supplementary Table S2). Three lineages (D1a1, O3a2c1a, R1a1a1b2 at 23, 17 and 16%, respectively) constitute 56% of the paternal haplotypes. Other polymorphic lineages include D1c and H1a* (9% each) and R2a (5%).”

    22% R
    11% H
    4% J
    2% L
    1% G
    ~40% Western
    Not what I expected.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4755386/

    Also am I reading this wrong but does Fig 4 here show ~100% Western ys for Ladakh? WTF?

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-59061-9

  44. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4755386/

    “It is commonly believed that the earliest residents of Ladakh were the Mons of Indian descent and Dards from Iran resulting in a composite Indo-Aryan heritage”

    Doesn’t make sense. Also wtf is a Mon?

    “From the 87 total binary genetic makers tested in the 209 Ladakh males, 24 paternal lineages were identified (Figure 1). Of the ten major Y haplogroups (C, D, G, H, J, L, N, O, Q and R) detected in the Ladakh population, the most abundant is the D haplogroup comprising 32% of the individuals. This haplogroup is followed in decreasing order of frequency by R (22%), O (19%) and H (11%). Haplogroups J, N and Q were each found in 4% of the Ladakh males and lower levels of L (2%), C (1%) and G (1%) were also detected. Among the 37 Eurasian populations surveyed for the major Y-chromosomal haplogroups, Ladakh along with Southern Iran (also at 10 haplogroups) is second only to Pakistan (at 12 haplogroups) with respect to the number of haplogroups represented (Supplementary Table S2). Three lineages (D1a1, O3a2c1a, R1a1a1b2 at 23, 17 and 16%, respectively) constitute 56% of the paternal haplotypes. Other polymorphic lineages include D1c and H1a* (9% each) and R2a (5%).”

    22% R
    11% H
    4% J
    2% L
    1% G
    ~40% Western
    Not what I expected.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4755386/

    Also am I reading this wrong but does Fig 4 here show ~100% Western ys for Ladakh? WTF?

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-59061-9

    1. Mons may be called the autochthons of Ladakh, if that term means anything. They are tribals, as the Ladakhis being Tibetan types, are not. The Champas living on the banks of the Pangong lake as well as the herders who own the sheep of pashmina goats are probably the original Mon. They migrate to the Chang Thang, the great plateaux, at 15,000 feet and above with their goats till late October and descend to heights of about 12,000 in the winter.

      1. Do you have any knowledge on their genetics/language? Are they really of “Indian” descent or just tribal Tibetans?

        1. Regarding Mons,

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changpa
          They look like regular Tibetans and speak a Tibetan language.

          What would make Mons of Indian descent like that paper stated? Nothing as far as I can tell.

          This is probably wrong too.

          “People of Dard descent predominate in Dras and Dha-Hanu areas. The residents of the Dha-Hanu area, known as Brokpa, are predominately followers of Islam while small minorities follow Tibetan Buddhism and Hinduism[92] and most Brokpa have preserved much of their original Dardic traditions and customs. The Dards of Dras, however, have converted to Islam and have been strongly influenced by their Kashmiri neighbours. The Mons are believed to be descendants of earlier Indian settlers in Ladakh, and traditionally worked as musicians, blacksmiths, and carpenters.”

          What makes them “Indian”?
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladakh

          These might be the only “Indians” in the area.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dah_Hanu
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokpa

          I’m curious on how Ladakhis acquired ~40%+ western ydnas. Earlier population or admixture? I’d guess on the latter?

          Or how Baltis acquired eastern mtdnas but not ydnas.

          https://books.google.com/books?id=Nd4yAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA198&lpg=PA198&dq=baltistan+y+dna&source=bl&ots=3vwhCnIEHx&sig=ACfU3U0DFeZpuNC2QhWbnAxu_puGss8P6Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5n6TNj_jpAhWhRzABHUM_AswQ6AEwCHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=baltistan%20y%20dna&f=false

      2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changpa
        They speak a Tibetan language and look like regular Tibetans. Not sure why that paper says they are of “Indian” descent.

        The link below states the same thing.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladakh

        People of Dard descent predominate in Dras and Dha-Hanu areas. The residents of the Dha-Hanu area, known as Brokpa, are predominately followers of Islam while small minorities follow Tibetan Buddhism and Hinduism[92] and most Brokpa have preserved much of their original Dardic traditions and customs. The Dards of Dras, however, have converted to Islam and have been strongly influenced by their Kashmiri neighbours. The Mons are believed to be descendants of earlier Indian settlers in Ladakh, and traditionally worked as musicians, blacksmiths, and carpenters.

        These are the only “Indians” in the region.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dah_Hanu
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokpa

        1. I’m interested on how Ladakhis obtained Western ydnas (40%+) though. Absorbing an older population or later admixture?

  45. Maybe AASI wasn’t backward but it seems our ydnas (both AASI and ANI ones) couldn’t beat the NE Asian ancestors of Tibetans to regions south of the Himalayas. I don’t like that somehow East Asia ended up being for pure East Asians but South Asia has to be shared between South and East Asians. Oh well.

    1. Actually I take that back if those ydnas studies of Baltis and Ladakhis along with maps are true.

      “Their history literature also indicates the colonization of northern Pakistan by Chinese and Tibetans in 7th century. ”

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337313128_Mitochondrial_DNA_control_region_variants_analysis_in_Balti_population_of_Gilgit-Baltistan_Pakistan

      “Haplogroup distributions in Pakistani populations, with the exception of the Hazara (discussed in the next section), are strikingly similar to one another (figs. 1 and 2), despite some notable linguistic differences. Indeed, the language isolate-speaking Burusho, the Dravidian-speaking Brahuis, and the Sino-Tibetan–speaking Baltis did not stand out from the other populations at all in the haplogroup analyses (table 2 and fig. 2), suggesting either that the linguistic differences arose after the common Y pattern was established or that there has been sufficient Y gene flow between populations to eliminate any initial difference”

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707625075

    2. JattScytihian, Maybe its more about AASI not having the toolkit to flourish in cold high altitudes like the tibetan plateau. It probably would’ve required new types of livestock husbandry, and having fewer cropping seasons. Its a whole new paradigm and straddling ecologies might be the exception even among the successful cultural groups.

      1. 1. Maybe. But the NE Asian ancestors of Tibetans didn’t have this either. DIdn’t they get it from absorbing y Dna D individuals in high altitudes?

        2. Also the ancestors of West Eurasian living in the Pamirs (although not as high are still pretty high) adapted somehow.

        3. Also judging from the y dnas of Baltis and Ladakhis (if the studies are accurate) it seems possible maybe likely Indo-Aryans did beat them to Northern Pakistan/Ladakh and Tibetan/Chinese admixture is very recent (7th century according to that one paper).

  46. Regarding Baltistan

    “Their history literature also indicates the colonization of northern Pakistan by Chinese and Tibetans in 7th century. ”

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214540019300891

    “Haplogroup distributions in Pakistani populations, with the exception of the Hazara (discussed in the next section), are strikingly similar to one another (figs. ​(figs.11 and ​and2),2), despite some notable linguistic differences. Indeed, the language isolate-speaking Burusho, the Dravidian-speaking Brahuis, and the Sino-Tibetan–speaking Baltis did not stand out from the other populations at all in the haplogroup analyses (table 2 and fig. 2), suggesting either that the linguistic differences arose after the common Y pattern was established or that there has been sufficient Y gene flow between populations to eliminate any initial differences. ”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447589/

    So Tibetan women colonized Baltistan and caused language shift? Doesn’t make any sense.

  47. Anybody have any insight on the Mon/Champa people and Ladakhi/Batli uniparental markers?

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