a discussion of things brown….
Do your thing.
@Razib Do you have any reading recommendations for the Protestant Reformation?
Another question is: How do you read nonfiction? Do you make notes, summaries, do you underline, etc.
@Mayuresh Kelkar Recently on Bahador’s Alast language video this Reply was posted to one of my comments by a known man called Mayuresh Kelkar :
Linguistic, textual, genetic and archaeological evidence for the Out of India Theory of Indo European Languages Baghpat Chariots, Weapons and the Horse in the Harappan Civilization – Dr. BK Manjul
Findings from the latest genetic study conducted by ASI in collaboration withe Reich Lab at Harvard using the ancient DNA from Rakhigarhi
slides at 29:00 mark
Here are the tribes that spread the Indo European languages from South Asia to West Asia, Central Asia and to Europe
Avestan) Afghanistan: Proto-Iranian: Sairima (Śimyu), Dahi (Dāsa). NE Afghanistan: Proto-Iranian: Nuristani/Piśācin (Viṣāṇin). Pakhtoonistan (NW Pakistan), South Afghanistan: Iranian: Pakhtoon/Pashtu (Paktha). Baluchistan (SW Pakistan), SE Iran: Iranian: Bolan/Baluchi (Bhalāna). NE Iran: Iranian: Parthian/Parthava (Pṛthu/Pārthava). SW Iran: Iranian: Parsua/Persian (Parśu/Parśava). NW Iran: Iranian: Madai/Mede (Madra). Uzbekistan: Iranian: Khiva/Khwarezmian (Śiva). W. Turkmenistan: Iranian: Dahae (Dāsa). Ukraine, S, Russia: Iranian: Alan (Alina), Sarmatian (Śimyu). Turkey: Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian: Phryge/Phrygian (Bhṛgu). Romania, Bulgaria: Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian: Dacian (Dāsa). Greece: Greek: Hellene (Alina). Albania: Albanian: Sirmio (Śimyu). Shrikant Gangadhar Talageri
Five waves of Indo-European expansion: a preliminary model (2018) Igor A Tonoyan-Belyayev I. Tonoyan-Belyayev
Is this comment and the Content in it have any Credibility. Not even the languages but also the tribes of West Asia / Central Asia are Indo- European tribes from India
Talageri’s researches are very meticulous and quite consistent internally. Over the past 27 years, there has not been even one counter to his Rigvedic analysis (3 books). So much so that Witzel is now re-formulating (contorting) his ideas about a PIE homeland to ensure a fit.
So far, his “poison pills” to falsify competing theories have been sustaining admirably – the elephant, the PIE cognate for sea/ocean and the river geography of Northern India.
One independent corroboration about Iranians/Indians living together at the time of Old Rigveda arrived from Lubotsky – raya parinasa – a commonly used phrase in both the Avestan and the New Rigveda. This common innovation would not be possible if they had split off earlier in Central Asia.
Talageri’s latest needs to withstand the scrutiny of time. Until then, we can only speculate.
I read Talageri’s most recent work and I must say it was good read although very long. I personally think that the truth lies somewhere in between Talageri and AMT/AIT more like ATT (Aryan Trickling in Theory). With more time we might see more archaeological and genetic evidences for that. One simply can’t deny the genetic evidence at the same time one simply can’t deny the lack of archaeological and circumstantial evidence (in the vedas).
Data Collected From this Weblog in Tabular form Link to pdf:
What percentage of left leaning people think that Hindu nationalism is bad and what percentage of right leaning people think that Hindu nationalism is mixed/good? What percentage of Dharmics (Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Budhists) think that they are skeptical of god (s) and What percentage of Abrahamics (Christians, Muslims, Jews) think that there exists a god? Do you Pandas or just the excel for analysis?
Alright I wasn’t my comment i was Mayuresh Kelkar’s Comment on my Comment on A youtube video.
Documentary about the “cobra gypsies” of rajasthan…
India has a lot of diverse subcultures, need to be careful about generalizing things to brahmin or upper caste norms when making predictions.
I seen gypsies with their kids and Dogs travelling from one place to another. Quite a lifestyle. No wonder people discriminate to European Gypsies.
There was a lizard in the video. The villagers said it was poisonous. I dont think poisonous, toxic possibly.
Broadly two kinds of lizard (in SL at least). One has regular tongue and rounded tail (Land Monitor Lizard). Non toxic and villagers eat it.
The other, the water monitor Lizard has a forked tongue and triangular shaped tail which can break a leg with a swipe. More importantly its bodily fluids are extremely toxic. (think Komodor dragon and how it kills).
In the past village would grab a water monitor lizard and would be tied to a plank. A slow fire built underneath. The saliva, sweat whatever would be collected.
A very small amount would be added an enemies food. That person will slowly waste away and die.
I think toxic bacteria, like the Komodor Dragon.
I have a theory that south Asians have poor genetics due to the caste system. The strict endogamy and arranged marriage encourages inbreeding (cousin marriage) and removes the point of natural selection. Who needs to be good looking, fit, or attractive when your mom set you up with someone based on your last name. Many of the Dalits I’ve seen have good looking features, smooth skin, and would be considered attractive. And many “high castes” have bad features like excessive body hair, pimples, poor vision, etc. And because these groups have married each other for so long, it’s like they are all their own little inbred communities. Population substructure. I’ve noticed a similar trend in Europe vs. America. White Americans who are a mix of euro ethnicities look better than Europeans from places like England or Germany. And Indians from Guyana, South Africa, or Fiji look better too
I was born in America, so I don’t understand it well. Maybe the government of India should ban caste surnames and let it die out.
Eat healthy and exercise daily then you can become like The new Bollywood actors like Ranveer Singh , Tiger , Hritik Roshan etc. Nobody is that inbred in India each gotra has its huge population size. You can marry a person sharing same gotra from your Dad’s and Mom’s Family. Many indians americans that are prominent doesn’t represent Indians at all. They( Indian americans) are lanky as hell. Actually its forbidden to many within same Gotra. It can lead to family abolishment and even death in some cases and certainly prevalent in Haryanvi Jaat community and. I can say from my gotra community its not ok to marry within same gotra. How can you ban Caste surnames idk. Maybe you can but then its not democratic. Jati can be considered analogous to tribe and Gotra to Clan and Varna to Occupation based Clan. Caste(the Word) is European construct anyways.
“White Americans who are a mix of euro ethnicities look better than Europeans from places like England or Germany. And Indians from Guyana, South Africa, or Fiji look better too”
I dont think inbreeding produces unattractive look. Pakistanis are highly inbred yet no south Asian complains about their look. Perhaps, Celtic people had better features than Germanic tribes. The English people that have celtic features, like their celtic neighbors, are quite attractive.
Why did the new atheist movement decline? It was all I heard about 10-12 years ago.
re: genetics. dalits are more inbred than most of the high caste groups. inbreeding is a fitness hit. i think some marginal outbreeding would help a lot with certain diseases.
If everybody is sticking to their own then obviously everybody is inbred so that makes sense. Also given that women had the chance to marry into higher caste groups it would make sense that Dalits would be more inbred.
new atheism: the movement died cuz america is way more secular today. you can’t keep a movement going against something that’s moribund. also a lot become SJWs while others veered right
Also it seems like Indians are an unstable mix of two or three populations. I rarely see symmetric faces. Compare that with Hispanics who are also a mix but seems to have more harmonious faces for the most part.
Also I noticed all South Asians have this quality that it looks like they have a 5’oclock shadow right after they shaved. It appears less prominent on lower castes due to darker skin bu they definitely have it too.
Some south Asians can grow barely any facial hair.
Question for Indians in India:
Do Indian Americans and Indians in the west (especially men) seem to have an overly high concern about looking good from your perspective?
(Please substitute Indian for Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan etc if you are from those countries)
I am curious about the non Diaspora POV.
America is at least an order of magnitude more ‘beauty’ conscious than India.
For people who grew up in India but moved to the States, it is a shock for a few months how well-kempt everyone is. I personally don’t give a shit and am still in a position not to give a shit but going into interviews (most American interviews are not as heavy on technical stuff and check likeability) and working in offices (so much more money to be made by just being presentable) changes such people profoundly. This change is much deeper than the superficial things like fake accents, picking up pop-culture or sports references, borrowing pc opinions etc. People start modifying how they eat/drink/socialize, what kind of things they discuss. So, it is normal for them to pick up the beauty-consciousness. Another factor is that usually, these guys marry and import their (relatively much beautiful and beauty-conscious) spouse from India.
On ABCDs, one of my friends joked that ABCDs can be instantly seen apart from us (Indian graduate students) by their good looking hair, shoes(loafer/boat?), sunglasses and polos. Maybe, the pressure (no arranged marriages) to conform forces this but I do find most ABCDs are whiter than Gora people in their vocabulary, (public) mannerism, conduct and tastes. Related to the point above the beautiful (beauty-conscious) wives of the first generation become beauty conscious mothers of the second generation.
In brief, Serbian Americans and in other western countries are not concerned with their appearance. It is a bit longer and more complex story but, in general, they think that they are smarter than locals who do not deserve such ‘grooming’ effort from them even for a job interview. However, there is some consideration about appearance among certain segments at home.
“Serbian Americans…are not concerned with their appearance.”
Try telling Nikola Tesla that.
This is actually the best example. The guy who made and abandoned zillions of dollars certainly did not care what others think about his haircut or his jacket. Pure r1a 187 cm Dinaric genetics and his match with the same height. (40 sec)
Perhaps, I can explain the situation specifically for the case of the Indian men who end up in America, they’re majorly in STEM fields and come either as engineers or as Masters/PhD students. They may not appear stellar compared to say, a startup founder, but they are definitely book smart and were probably among the ‘nerdier’ crowd in middle and high school. A desire to look good comes primarily from the perspective of courting the opposite gender. With this in mind, here are a few characteristics about the upbringing of a big cross-section of these guys (just the average small-town/small-city person, not the elite urbanite):
1. A lot of parental pressure given to these boys is along the lines of “study hard in high school and get good grades, then you can get into an IIT/NIT, after that if you have a well-paying job in Microsoft/Google, you’ll have a nice arranged marriage with a beautiful girl” or something similar.
2. The key timeframe for this is the Class X and Class XII exams (analogous to O- and A- levels) on which many university admissions are based. Most kids study for these for months. Then they take two years of coaching for the competitive exams that take place right after Class XII (IIT/NIT/BITS etc.). Understandably, time is short and competition is fierce. There is no time to develop muscles like Schwarzenegger or a hairstyle like Elvis or dance moves like Salman Khan. With every minute you lose on these activities, some more studious kid might beat you in an exam that would throw your university plans in jeopardy. The age range of this phase of life is 14-18, so not much time to develop social skills here.
3. If they get into a good engineering college, the M:F gender ratio there can be 75:25 on average, since the pressure to get a well-paying job is higher for men than it is for women (a lopsided national gender ratio partly plays a role here). Social life is better if they are in a big city like Bombay or Delhi, but not as much if you’re in a less developed place like Kharagpur or Kanpur. The smart/attractive/wealthier/funny guys would pair up with the more desirable women, but a few women and many men will get left out. Then comes the college placement system which is paramount for jobs in India (and dependent on good grades throughout college, since many places don’t have internships), again lots of students competing over a few good companies and lots of meh jobs. The selections take place in the order of the salaries paid, highest to lowest, so most desire a high-income job irrespective of the kind of work required, because family prestige and arranged marriage.
4. Once they’re in a job, provided it’s a high paid MNC like the tech giants, big 4 accounting, or high-end consulting, then some of them do get fit and smarter, become more well-rounded, etc. because with good income and a stable job they can concentrate on these things. However, if they’re in a dead-end role in a company like TCS, the problems start again and then many apply for a Master’s overseas or an MBA.
5. They then arrive for their Master’s degree at university, and see that most of the fellow students in their tech class are studious guys from India and the rest of Asia, many were top of their class back in their home countries, and all are competing for the subset of companies that sponsor H-1Bs. Again, not much of a chance to interact with women here. Now in addition to developing social skills, they need life skills. Many have never cooked before (mom cooks at home, college mess at university, domestic help in a flatshare), they have to clean the house and take out the rubbish, figure out the insurance, and much else. To a local woman, it would seem that these guys don’t have their act together.
A recurring feature of the above is that in each stage, many of the men just haven’t been conditioned to the same circumstances required to have the desire to spend the effort to look good all the time, because the societal/economic pressures were different throughout the first 25 years of their lives. They may find it confusing why one has to be fluent in sarcasm, or that the value of one’s worth is tied to how cute his dog is. Some of them do get fit and push extra hard, strike out and learn from mistakes, and gradually get the hang of social life. Many others consider whether it’s worth it, seeing the high divorce rates and pitfalls of western courtship, and decide that a high-value (as perceived by them) woman from the mother country would make for a more stable life partner.
“study hard in high school and get good grades, then you can get into an IIT/NIT, after that if you have a well-paying job in Microsoft/Google, you’ll have a nice arranged marriage with a beautiful girl”
Lol. To be honest, I think many of the parents of ABCD kids operate under the same sort of assumptions when raising them.
It’s not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion.
For eg. I know a couple of ABCD kids who had an arranged marriage with another ABCD. They seem happier and more well adjusted than average.
But I these sorts of implicit parenting assumptions, are at odds with standard mainstream dating culture. So tend to become a source of confusion for many ABCDs.
mine did to some extent. I rebelled once I got to college. But before that it was perpetual nerdom. They weren’t as bad with sports though. They did initially at least attempt to get me to like them more. But then they would do things like say they were too tired to drive me to practice. This was early on even in 1st grade with soccer practice. So in the end, they just didn’t emphasize it much. Life was all about grades to them. My sister was raised differently though. They learned by that point.
Not really. Many groups have been quite historically endogamous. Most people throughout history pretty much only married and reproduced those in close proximity of their villages anyway.
And the point was made earlier in this thread that Pakistanis are even more inbred by considered the best looking nationality overall in S Asia. The whole points about Dalits being more or less inbred I think is rather moot. Here is the reality, and I am frankly tired of rehashing it over and over again.
A famous quote about evolution
“Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution” Theodosius Dobzhansky
Repurposed for our discussion today
“Nothing in S Asia Makes Makes Sense Except in the Light of the Steppe to AASI ratio”
Let’s address facial features first. S Asians have a disdain for darker and more tropical facial features. They prefer more West Eurasian looks. The steppe component is what causes the most variation in the amount of West Eurasian DNA. Phenotype correlates to genotype, not ideally on an individual level, given that the number of genetic loci is rather small relative to the entire genome, a point Razib has discussed previously; however, on a group level the trends are far easier to see.
1. Indo aryan domination. This put the more West Eurasian people on top of the dominance hierarchy.
2. This was cemented about 2,000 years ago with the enforcement of strict endogamy from then on. Empires such as the Gupta empire had their seeds in that era. This made it so the “mixing” was put largely to a halt. Those groups with higher West Eurasian at that snapshot in time, largely remained that way.
3. Invaders from the West, who tended to be more W Eurasian conquered the subcontinent several times. So once again this reinforced an association between lighter skin plus West Eurasian features to power, wealth, and prestige.
4. This occurred again with the Mughals. While the Mughals were considerably initially decently E Eurasian at first, they were still lighter skinned. They mixed with the more West Eurasian populations of the subcontinent, such as upper castes. They also brought in many Persians and Afghans, more West Eurasian groups.
5. The British. Nuff said.
6. WWII world order with the United States and USSR on top but the prior winning the cold war. This coupled with the advent of global telecommunications and media causing the dissemination of the Hollywood beauty standard, something once again the more W Eurasian people of the subcontinent have.
7. Bollywood. Some of the most West Eurasian people of S Asia, Pashtuns and Khatris, dominate the industry. This reinforces it all further. If anything, this has also contributed for inferiority complex some Indians have with Pakistanis specifically, when it comes to looks. Bollywood actors, especially of old, resembled the average indic Pakistani more than the average North Indian.
These layers have created a deep complex about the more tropical AASI features and darker skin. Tropical features have been recently historically demonized a ton in general.
African facial features were considered ugly by large segments of the world and still are openly so in places like E Asia. However, the rise of social justice education, African Americans in American sports, media, and politics, and the physique of West African people, due to recent hunter gatherer ancestry selecting for more mesomorphic physiques (evolution is not goal oriented so not all groups with this lifestyle will evolve this way), something always admired by Europeans, has allowed them to rise up in the global looks ranking hierarchy, especially African American men.
@JattScythain S Asians facial features are not any less symmetric. There is no data on this. And even the hardcore racist anthropologists of the 20th century never noticed this. And they made sure to write down every single physical observation possible. They went into excruciating detail.
The reality is that symmetrical features, when tropical, as discussed for the reasons above, are considered ugly. A big wide flat nose with large nostrils, thick lips, large “bug eyes”, dark circles around the eyes, dark skin, etc. are not welcome in S Asia. These are largely correlated with proportion of AASI DNA. This is exactly why S Asians venerate upper caste/agricultural tribe West Punjabi and Pashtun looks, further reinforced by the Khan Khatri bollywood hegemony.
Latin American populations are NOT more stabalized. They have their own caste system with harnizo, mestizo, castizo, and full blooded iberian/amerindian. These populations are still heavily mixing. If anything they are less stablized, because they have the presence of “pure” groups still. Indians are all thoroughly mixed enough that every group as AASI, Steppe, and related Iranic mesolithic HG DNA.
“Indians from Guyana, South Africa, or Fiji look better too”
That is because they learned proper diet and fitness techniques. They have much better style too, per Western standards. Indians who are 2nd generation look WAY better than their parents. This is not some coincidence. Again, they tend to be taller, bigger, and dress closer again to Western standards. The Guyanese are mostly dalits from UP and Bihar. A huge proportion are still unmixed today and have largely no African ancestry. Yet, they have no problems along with Trinidadians, from what I have seen, in looking and attracting people, at least in the NYC area, including the highly competitive club scene. This is because they are more muscular from working out (their bone structure still tends to look small), they have a swag about their style (similar to Caribbean blacks), they can dance, and they are confident but in what is perceived as a normal and not “creepy” way.
@Sumit Yes it does come off as we are overly concerned. It is because most S Asian immigrant men tend to come from backgrounds that would automatically give them a fair chance at the better echelons of women within S Asia. They are shocked when they get to the US, a place where attraction metrics value physical beauty and swagger far more, and they suddenly are considered statistically bottom of the barrel. Btw, even that last part is an exaggeration, but does have empirical data to back it up. The overall response rates per the infamous okcupid race study were
Replay rate by race (male sender)
1. East Asians- 22.2% 2. Blacks- 21.7% 3. Hispanics- 23.0% 4. Indians- 20.8% 5. Middleeastern- 25.7% 6. Native American- 27.8% 7. Pacific Islander- 24.6% 8. White- 29.2%
Differences are there but it isn’t like this MASSIVE thing that the internet complains about and incels rant on and on about “currycels are screwed” about.
And btw, as someone who works out a lot and knows enough steroid users. A lot of bollywood guys are on steroids. There is a reason some never had six packs and suddenly get them in their 40s and 50s. TRT and supraphysiological doses is an amazing thing. They don’t even need heavy gear. A lot of their physiques aren’t natural. Hollywood is the exact same thing btw. No one gains of new 25-30lbs of lean body mass in 6-10 months without chemical assistance, especially not after their hormonal primes at the age of like early 40s-mid 50s.
That being said, once again, steroid use among athletes and celebrities is super common in general. If you ever see a guy who gains muscle suddenly in his 40s and he has been working out his entire life, he is very very likely on steroids. Salman khan is a good example. He is an inch shorter than me and weighed in at like 170 early on in his career. He had a good physique. Then suddenly in his 40s he packed on a bunch more size and became huge. Most men who train properly gain 80% of their muscle size within the first few years of training .They spend their whole lives fighting for the rest. And btw, steroids will give you muscle gains even without training. There is a reason a young boy who transitions to man during puberty will add lean body mass without even working out.
You can look up the New England Journal of medicine study
4 Groups -100 college aged men in each groups new to exercise. Looked at muscle gain after one month (these will be crazy because everyone gains a ton of muscle when they start training and then is drops off precipitously after the first 24 months or so of good training [getting big and strong off things like the bench, squat, and deadlift- bro curls and shitty form benching will not maximize these gains and people who do that still have much left on the table]).
Group 1- no steroids, no working out- gain 0 lbs muscle Group 2- no steroids, working out- gained 4 lbs muscle Group 3- steroids, no working out- gained 7 lbs of muscle Group 4- steroids+working out- gained 13 lbs muscle
Yes steroids skew perceptions of what is attainable, and genetics matters quite a bit as well.
That said its is possible to have a decent physique with average Indian skinny-fat genetics, small joints, without steroids, and as a vegetarian.
People have asked me if i am on steroids. I am not even into power lifting or bodybuilding.
I lift recreationally mainly to have a high functioning body and to correct imbalances from rock climbing.
I have posted these pics here before with regards to how meat consumption is unnecessary for phsyical fitness,
Here we go once again just in case ppl are curious approx 5 years apart. Vegan / Plant based in after pic, meat eater in before…
lol I posted mine last open thread. funny how this fora attracts streotype breaking vegetarian gujus 😉
im a powerlifter doe
Btw, the shock is even greater to the more W Eurasian shifted S Asians who are used to being treated liked hot commodities in S Asia. Suddenly most just fall into the “brown” group, unless they can pass as liminally white, something only a small minority of even the most W Eurasian shifted S Asians can get away aka Niki Hayley. They get a ton of negative baggage associated with their phenotype, something they aren’t sued to at all. Cue the rise of incel forum diaspora Indians and hardcore racialists of various fora, including some of the arm chair geneticists of anthrogenica who retrofit any GED match data they can get their hands on and run through R in pathetic steppe dick measuring contests.
Interestingly, in the UK during my time studying abroad, I notice, similarly to some other posters here, dark skinned Sri Lankans and S Indians shaving their heads and learning to dance, essentially co-opting “black American style and swagger” at decently successful rates.
Again, I have seen enough fair skinned more W Eurasian looking desi Americans chasing after the same few desi girls, striking out majorly in clubs often enough, and then dating their hookah pipe and bottles of johhny walker in group orgies of self validation. I have seen all types of desi Americans do this btw. But this experience is especially jarring for those who were raised by parents who gave them massive expectations, because their more light skinned W Eurasian parents were used to being treated like phenotypic gods in their native.
Some brown-skin mid-east guy (lightish by Indian standards) photoshopped the exact same tinder pics of himself to be black passing and lighter to be latin passing and changed is name…
Both the black, and latin roleplay pics got approximately 2x the likes of the ‘brown’ looking guy.
This suggests to me much of the handicap is not ‘looks’, per se but stereotypes attached to the looks typical of South Asians.
I have done this myself. I once made the same profile with the name “Alejandro” and got about 2x many matches, albeit fewer ones from desis. Of course, I reaped the rewards of my new latin identity 😉
But if you have Indian accent, this is of course harder to get away with.
Lighter desis will claim persian, especially Pakistanis. Three in my high school were notorious for this. I remember one curly haired lighter skin one liked to claim Turkish for whatever reason. Some darker ones say stuff like “half dominican.” The stigma around the “Muslim” and “desi” identities in particular ate bad.
Hassan would do a lot better as Jose. It’s just how it is. And I am bit even saying that is entirely unjustified. Men of these groups may empirically not possess what the women of these apps want and that is what the cultural streotyped developed from, with the combination of their names and phenotypes being the identifiers.
None of this works in the UK tho. I got called “Paki” on drunk nights out enough.
Another thought it is possible to gauge how a group is stereotyped in America based on how their accent is perceived.
I.e. the aesthetics of the sound of the accent don’t have some impact, but not as much as people think.
How would you classify the social status of Indian Americans in American society ?
On one hand rich, educated, politically connected etc.
On the other hand their dating prospects seems to improve significantly if they can pass as Mexican or Black.
Maybe kinda reminiscent of the situation of rich dalits in India ?
I am not sure.
similar to E Asians. Not considered masculine, sexy, or cool. But looked at as a non-threatening model minority. The contribute a lot to the economy, tend to be clannish and stay to themselves, and don’t make a whole lot of noise. They are an ideal import. And when they do interracially date, there is less “noise” made by whites as well. Again, they are largely viewed as safe aka less likely to divorce, have kids out of wedlock, cheat, or be abusive.
This has changed for Indians lately though the internationalizing of rape incidents and “bobs and vagene.” Indians now have additional stereotype of non masculine yet too sexually forward. Basically bordering on “creepy dork” territory.
And you are correct. The reason Indian accent is perceived badly is only partially due to its sound. The other part is that it comes out of the mouth of relatively darker, shorter, skinny fat, less groomed, socially awkward (by American standards), set of people.
“ This has changed for Indians lately though the internationalizing of rape incidents and “bobs and vagene.” Indians now have additional stereotype of non masculine yet too sexually forward. ”
Lol yes, trying to think of all the stereotypes of brown ppl not in any order …
1. Ultra religious heathens ( Unless explicitly Christian) 2. Stereotypical Occupations: Uber, Doctor, technology, terrorist, comedian, 7-11 3. Body odour / low hygiene / uncouth 4. Not athletic / bad at sports, Nerdy spelling bee champion, mathletes 5. Too sexually forward and awkward 6. Spicy food / curry 7. Colourful traditional dances, clothes and festivals
I want to say yoga / spiritual stuff is a stereotype but I think that’s more associated with urban white women.
Any that I am missing or got wrong?
warlock Interestingly, in the UK during my time studying abroad, I notice, similarly to some other posters here, dark skinned Sri Lankans and S Indians shaving their heads and learning to dance, essentially co-opting “black American style and swagger” at decently successful rates.
May I say light skinned Indians, who become more Yuppie than Yuppies dont have much of a success rate.
“black American style and swagger” My gen, 60 year old and above didnt adopt African American style. I shave my head, because I was bald by age 25, and long before it was cool.
My cousins. school mates are all very conservative dressers including those married to white or African Americans.. Out of work I dress like a Sri Lankan.
I have many close African Friends, some from Harlem and the Bronx. However, I speak grammatical English, no swear words, not even “Yo” or “Bro”. I see Indians, specially the ones in Wall Street using “Yo”, “bro” gang symbols and think to myself, you guys wont last an hour in the Old Harlem or South Bronx.
I think what goes for Sri dark or light, we smile a lot. Not aggressive or pushy and laid back ambition. Dont use sentences like “my servants back home”. In general we treat women equally, and I mean my generation, Uncles to you.
Anyway, I get a hint of the green eyes. These very dark Sri Lankans who would not be given a second glance India, are making it out in the US.
Finally, Indians had this unfortunate incident with a BBC article titled “Condoms ‘too big’ for Indian men Translation: The penises of 6 in 10 Indian men measured were 5-6.1 inches long, and 30 percent were between 3.9 and 4.9 inches. Most condoms, meanwhile, are a rather hopeful 5.9-7 inches. That makes for lot of excess rubber in India.”
Here is where it gets really funny: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua … penis-size 5.16 inches was.found to be average size in international study of 15,000 participants of mostly “middleeastern and white” men So most middleeastern and white men also would fall below standard. By that very same norm
An actual study done on Indian men
Sample of 301 men in Kerela were sample age 18-60. Average was ~13.1cm or 5.12 inches. Girth was about 11.5cm or 4.5 inches. Thankfully, it was done in Kerela, a place that genetically ranges from mid caste N Indian to tamil dalit in genetics. This prevents the literal steppe dick measurers from come out about BS racialist lies about AASI inferiority in every way.
“The average flaccid penile length is found to be 8.21 cm in the present study, which is significantly lower than that of the mean length reported from USA1 and Jordan.7 The mean flaccid penile length reported from Nigeria8 is 8.16 and from Israel9 8.3 cm, which are similar to the findings of the present study without any significant difference.”
“Reports on mean erected length are available only from USA,1 Jordan7 and Israel.9 Erected length obtained in the present study (13.01 cm) does not differ significantly from the mean erected length reported by Wessells et al.1 from USA (12.89 cm), but the finding reported from Israel9 (13.6 cm) is significantly higher. The mean value reported from Jordan7 (11.8 cm) is found to be significantly low. Bondil et al.10 reported the longest penile length in the flaccid (10.7 cm) and stretched conditions (16.24 cm). In their study, measurements were obtained after three manual stretches of the penis. Owing to the methodological difference in determining stretched length, it cannot be compared with the present study. Longest erected length reported is 15.99 cm (Richters et al.11) followed by 15.5 cm (Kinsey et al.12). Details of these studies were not available for a statistical comparison. For erected circumference, the only data available are from USA1 and it does not show any significant difference from the Indian data.”
Warlock You dont even get what BBC means
Please get street smart.
1. Finally, Indians had this unfortunate incident with a BBC article titled “Condoms ‘too big’ for Indian men Translation: The penises of 6 in 10 Indian men measured were 5-6.1 inches long, and 30 percent were between 3.9 and 4.9 inches. Most condoms, meanwhile, are a rather hopeful 5.9-7 inches. That makes for lot of excess rubber in India.”
2. Here is where it gets really funny:
“International study of 15,000 penises is being used to reassure men concerned they are not within the ‘normal range” “The enduring question now has a scientific answer: 13.12 centimetres (5.16 inches) in length when erect, and 11.66cm (4.6 inches) around, according to an analysis of more than 15,000 penises around the world. In a flaccid state, it found, the penis of the average man is 9.16cm (3.6 inches) in length and has a girth of 9.31cm (3.7 inches). The numbers should help “reassure the large majority of men that the size of their penis is in the normal range”, said British researchers who had assembled data from studies where participants had their member measured by a professional… The team found no evidence for penis size differences linked to race, though most of the study participants were of European and Middle Eastern descent and a full comparison could thus not be made…”
So white and middleeastern men also fail international condom standards…
3. An actual study done on Indian men
“Penile length and circumference: an Indian study” in Nature (one of the highest impact and well regarded journals there is)- just google it Sample of 301 men in Kerela were sample age 18-60. Average was ~13.1cm or 5.12 inches. Girth was about 11.5cm or 4.5 inches. Thankfully, it was done in Kerela, a place that genetically ranges from mid caste N Indian to tamil dalit in genetics. This prevents the literal steppe dick measurers from come out about BS racialist lies about AASI inferiority in every way. “The average flaccid penile length is found to be 8.21 cm in the present study, which is significantly lower than that of the mean length reported from USA1 and Jordan.7 The mean flaccid penile length reported from Nigeria8 is 8.16 and from Israel9 8.3 cm, which are similar to the findings of the present study without any significant difference.” “Reports on mean erected length are available only from USA,1 Jordan7 and Israel.9 Erected length obtained in the present study (13.01 cm) does not differ significantly from the mean erected length reported by Wessells et al.1 from USA (12.89 cm), but the finding reported from Israel9 (13.6 cm) is significantly higher. The mean value reported from Jordan7 (11.8 cm) is found to be significantly low. Bondil et al.10 reported the longest penile length in the flaccid (10.7 cm) and stretched conditions (16.24 cm). In their study, measurements were obtained after three manual stretches of the penis. Owing to the methodological difference in determining stretched length, it cannot be compared with the present study. Longest erected length reported is 15.99 cm (Richters et al.11) followed by 15.5 cm (Kinsey et al.12). Details of these studies were not available for a statistical comparison. For erected circumference, the only data available are from USA1 and it does not show any significant difference from the Indian data.”
So there aren’t any differences…But again the media seized upon wrecking Indians pretty severely. Pakdefense types btw are quite gleeful. They love to cite that BBC article and some global penis ranking website (unverified one) that shows a difference in endowment favorable to them. Funny thing is that the google link below that one literally shows the exact reverse to be true. They also like to cite the whole “third most handsome” survey. In reality, they get shafted, quite similarly in the West, regardless of their racist bravado and cherrypicking of invalid data, pun intended.
“Pakdefense types btw are quite gleeful….In reality, they get shafted, quite similarly in the West, regardless of their racist bravado and cherrypicking of invalid data”
Do you know why they behave this way? I am to understand that there’s a course called Pakistan Studies that has been responsible for a fair bit of brainwashing, but that doesn’t explain those on the forums, especially since they’re brought up mostly in the First World and haven’t been exposed to that curriculum. Why would they believe all this even after western schooling and college? Is it via parents and relatives, or the mosque and wider community?
I sometimes draw my own conclusions although my data may be wanting. My guess is a combination of the historic Muslim exceptionalism since the days of the AIML, the Punjabi + Pathan clannishness and disregard towards those more AASI shifted, coupled with the elite Ashraf standoffishness imported from the wealthier Mohajirs who migrated from the Urdu speaking cities in India.
Also, the Bangladesh war was partly caused due to the heavy racism shown towards the Bengalis by the West Pakistanis, and I guess this was before Pakistan Studies, so there were definitely some feelings of innate superiority present among the Pak establishment and elite even before Zia started Islamization. Syed Ahmed Khan said some rather disturbing things about Bengalis and Hindus back in the 1800s, I suppose his views were common among the elite Muslims and carried over to the present day?
In Europe, I noticed that there was a large gap in the average phenotype of the upper-class Pakistani and those from the working class, with a noticeably higher Steppe:AASI ratio among the elite vis a vis the subalterns. The former were shopping expensive stuff like you see new money do, while the latter were primarily restaurant owners and ran some essential services. Were those the landowner/ industrialist or elite professional types? Perhaps many of the Pakistanis settled in the West commenting on those forums belong to this upper-class, which might partially explain their racialist views towards those geographically east of them. Then again, many of those who work the fields in Pakistan have the same physical features as many Indians do, I assume those elites don’t consider these people ‘real’ Pakistanis (like Asia Bibi) when they compare looks.
Yeah pretty much all of that. Their hatred of the AASI is even deeper and more complex than the 6 reasons I laid out above. They desperately want to cling to superiority no matter what. Their country can be a giant hole full of nuclear waste and the other side of the border doing well, and they would still find away to bring up “sharper features” and “lighter skin” and descent from “mughals, arabs, turks, persians, and afghans.” The more educated ones on the internet will go into how they are the true foreberarers of all good inventions and cilvilization in S Asia. And the gangetic plains is a barbaric place that just stole and took credit from them.
They are the ones to use terms like “Ancient Pakistan” when referring to Indus Valley, despite the fact that the valley spanned into places like Gujarat and Haryana and the locals were genotypically more similar to people like modern day Patels, low caste Indian Punjabis, and mid caste S Indians than the current steppe infused people’s of Pakistan. As an invasion corridor, the people’s residing in what is now modern day Pak needed this strong identity though. They went through some of the harshest repeated historical cuckings in history. So it makes more sense to glorify a rapist warlord set of grandaddies than the loser lower tier AASI peoples. The lies never end. The lies about being Buddhist and not Hindu ever. The lies about all the good of Hinduism like philosophy of karma coming from them but the bad like caste having nothing to do with them. The lies about an inherent propensity towards bravery. The lies about the majority of Sikhs supporting them. The lies about them winning every war against India. They live in a world not based on facts. Everything, their entire identity, is predicated upon a racial and religious superiority complex, with the latter reducing in importance as the world becomes less religious, especially after two nation theory sank in the Bay of Bengal in 1971. This will only get worse. The new generation of Pakistanis are even more hardcore racialist. And they are mixing with groups like high birth rate Pashtuns a lot more. Whereas, Indian Punjabis are importing brides from UP and Bihar to fill the dearth of women there from selective female abortions.
Heck, I have seen a good chunk even take pride in the Miripuri second generation rape gangs in the UK, stating how tough and “alpha” they are for exploiting little white girls. They feel it feeds into some weird Imran Khanesque lothario image and the reality is the world is conspiring to undermine their inherent attractiveness via these rape accusations. The level of delusion is insane.
Is there a close relation between people from Mirpur and people from the Potohar plateau?
yes. They are likely Potahari Punjabi migrants. Also, legit half of indic non mohajir non dalit Pak claims “rajput” status, from Potaharis to Arains. They at the same time claim “high caste” hinduness yet say they are true Muslims. They practice casteism heavily and then criticize India for caste.
They claim India follows a faith of foreigners with Hinduism, ignoring that Hinduism has changed massively from the Rig Veda. Heck the entire main pantheon of Gods has been replaced and the paradigm has philosophically shifted so much. You think anywhere close to 1/3 of indo aryans were vegetarian lol. In reality, they heavily lost their identity to Islam, a completely foreign entity with only small remnants of indic influence in Sufism, that too something that declined recently as the few decades in the favor of more overt Wahibist style Saudi stuff developing. It is land of deep seated contradiction that can literally only truly be understood in the context of Indian civilization. As much as it pains them, they are part of it.
And they are still largely viewed as responsible for breaking the one recent opportunity in history to fully unite it. It’s fine now. Everyone should go there own way. But the racist language and superiority complexes need to stop. Pakistanis and their Khalistani allies sound like Nazis describing gypsies on the internet. Just hateful people spewing hateful stuff. Really not so unique. Heck Razib has to filter out enough who want to call us all “black animals.”
“sample”: “Kshatriya:Average”, “fit”: 1.5555, “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 43.33, “CustomGroup_Simulated_AASI”: 22.5, “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 20.83, “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1”: 13.33
“sample”: “Potohar_Rajput:Average”, “fit”: 1.7699, “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 45, “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1”: 22.5, “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 22.5, “CustomGroup_Simulated_AASI”: 10
They seem to be like Kshatriya with the main difference being more BA1 and less AASI.
Within the limited compass or Punjab/J&K Mirpur is not Potohar. That is to say, Potohari the dialect of Potohar is not the same as that of Mirpur. Mirpur was in J&K, East of the Jehlum river. Jehlum district, which is part of Potohar is west of the river. Hindu Mirpuris migrated to Jammu in 1947, reluctantly, after the killings started and many were massacred. Muslim Mirpuris migrated to the UK when they were displaced by the Mangla dam on the Jehlum. They like to pass for Kashmiris in Pakistan and in the UK, which is something Mirpuris in Jammu never do; there they identify with the Dogra community against Kashmiris. They are not Kashmiri in any culturual or linguistic sense. Actually Mirpuris are a kind of hilly Punjabi, neither Dogra nor Kashmiri.
I don’t see much purpose in insulting their ancestors, to be frank. On the contrary, I do think that many in North India should be thankful to the medieval-age Hindus from present-day Sindh and West Punjab for holding out as long as they did and delaying the onset of Muslim rule from Delhi by absorbing the blows from the Ghaznavids and Ghurids among others in the pre-sultanate period (~900-1200AD). I’m fairly certain that a large proportion of Hindu casualties you see mentioned in the present era academic work would have been of those living around the Indus, and consequently the ancestors of many Pakistanis today.
“They feel it feeds into some weird Imran Khanesque lothario image…”
I personally believe that Tendulkar and Dravid are much better role models for sport-oriented boys in terms of their private lives, both were middle class, they’re loyal to their wives and families, humble, and treat others who are junior to them with respect.
Imran Khan is from a well-known family and studied at Oxford in the 70s, a student’s parents from the Indian subcontinent back then couldn’t afford that education unless they were significantly wealthy. Yes he was a good cricketer, but would you want every middle-class aspiring sportsperson to follow his lifestyle? It presents the ‘harem’ problem; if there were a few thousand men like him in Pakistan and the country had the same level of women’s freedom as the UK, they would each have affairs with multiple upper-class women, with kids here and there, and leave many of the men resentful. Not optimal for social stability.
“The lies about being Buddhist and not Hindu ever.”
I don’t think this will stand much scrutiny in peer-reviewed circles though, there are enough ruined temples around to serve as a reminder. Additionally, there are religious surveys the British carried out in Punjab in the 1800s, hard to parse those numbers with a clouded mind. Then there’s the biggest smoking gun- caste among the Muslims. The ‘not Hindu ever’ meme is probably more of a self-reassurance than anything else. A bit like a child wanting to see Santa Claus, they know he probably doesn’t exist, but would have been nice if he did, and until the child matures to a certain age the parents play along by sending gifts.
“This will only get worse. The new generation…selective female abortions.”
Even then, many in rural Sindh, rural Balochistan, large stretches of Punjab, and a good many Mohajirs can’t really be distinguished if they walk around in an Indian bazaar. I don’t see how the more Steppe shifted racialist Pakistanis can sustain those views once these people are involved in their circles. I realize that their ruling class is rather zamindar heavy, which may account for most of the AASI shifted poorer people locked out of politics, and consequently resources. Eventually though, they’ll have to be involved in decision making, perhaps in 50 years or 100 years, and then it’d be awkward for 20-somethings to talk this way about ‘sharper features’ on the internet.
I remember Aatish Taseer in his book mentioned that upon meeting his half-sister was told “Oh, I’m so happy so glad you weren’t a little black Hindu”. [page 21, Stranger to History]
(personally, I don’t have an issue with someone being either little or black, but she had negative connotations in her mind when she said this)
“Heck Razib has to filter out enough who want to call us all “black animals.””
Maybe one of these days one such comment would pass through. It would be interesting for me to figure out their mindset.
lol little black hindu. I always find those comments. Empirical analysis doesn’t follow. These are probably some of the most hardcore racist people on the planet. If it was up to them, they would send the AASI part of themselves to the gas chambers. They really hate that part of themselves. It is the funniest when they larp as Indians in post 9/11 america. Many are now even begrudgingly realizing India is doing some stuff right. And rather AASI mixed looking Virat Kohli is a sex symbol there. That and the new crowd will get enough “woke” education by mixing with leftists and attempting to court dalits in an attempt to undermine India. All this will serve as mitigation.
Alas, I think the hardcore racialism though is still only to get worse. They see this as their only hope for unity. It is the trump card against insecure Indians.
A Pakistani on quora once commented
” The biggest compliment an Indian girl can get is: ‘you don’t look Indian'”
The reality is that this is true for men and S Asians in general. It is just more funny when someone who looks less W Eurasian does it. This phenotype stuff is a weak point for the Khatri and Khan bollywood looks loving Indians. Indians have to change and embrace more of their own phenotypic diversity.
Warlock bhai, I think you should make an FAQ out of these comments because I am pretty sure these same questions will come up again and again.
Fun Fact: I discovered BP while going through the internet rabbit hole of average national penis sizes and IQ. This must have been almost a decade back when I was in college in the early days of this blog.
I discovered BP trying to find out a desi conservative place after moving to US. Then i found Omar on twitter and BP
Hard to find any conservative (or even just “not Lefty”) space. 2nd-gen Desis go whole hog on progressive dumbassery.
I see more people referring to themselves as “South Asian” than as Indian” on my FB Wall.
absolutely. The “woke” crowd are some of the most self hating people I have ever met. /rIndia is full of them. Granted, it has a pakistani muslim mod from Canada kinda similar to Vice news actually
I’m with you on that. Especially when these idiots try to shame you for not being an ally of other minorities. Fuck affirmative action, BLM and reparations. Why should I support those things? Because African Americans are darker than whites and so am I?
“Do Indian Americans and Indians in the west (especially men) seem to have an overly high concern about looking good from your perspective?”
Yeah, man. This might be a general American thing.
I can usually distinguish between Indian Americans and British Indians, even though I have not been to either of these countries.
You can just tell.
The complexion is more even and the teeth are all well set and really white. In fact, this might be the pan-American upper class look. Refer to those official photos in front of the flag. Every person looks ‘American’ irrespective of race.
Dental braces are a good example, which I feel a lot of Americans wear as kids to get a more symmetrical smile. They aren’t very common in India. (This might address Jatt_Scythian’s point as well)
lol yea the straight, white, teeth thing is quite high socio economic status American thing.
UK may be the least image conscious anglo-sphere country.
I think Australia is the most image conscious overall.
Although parts of the US like LA are more image conscious than any Australian city.
Btw this discussion reminds me of the famous “Body Ritual Among the Nacirema” anthropology satire, a must read for people interested in this type of stuff imo…
Post number 61983 didn’t go through.
The issue is that they have outsized influenced. Media emphasized their protestors during Howdy Modi rally in Texas. They are also seen with Kashmiri protestors vandalizing the Indian Embassy post 371 abolishment. They also have expert politicians like Jagmeet Singh win the leftist seats in places like Canada via woke politics and advocating hardcore socialism. They are experts of trying to sway public perception. The mainstream right wing crowd of desis is totally politically inactive compared to these people. They make their lifestyle to advance their agenda. The West still has disproportionate power in the world. And they are working to get in bed with the leftist elements of the West. Heck Jagmeet Singh won the position of deputy PM with a past including refusing the condemn the biggest Canadian terrorist in history, the Khalistani Hijacker who caused the deaths of hundreds.
One thing that is going to mitigate stuff is that other types of Indians are now surging in Canada, with visa options becoming more lenient. They will balance out some of these clowns.
There’s this Pakistani nationalist (been banned multiple times, currently goes by the name Canadian_786) on Reddit who runs this garbage site called “Materia Islamica”, he keeps posting that BBC link about penis sizes all the time in the comments while spreading his anti-India and anti-Hindu propaganda on Reddit.
He also posts the “3rd most handsome” thing all the time. I checked that survey, the “Pakistani” man they picked for that survey was none other than Zayn Malik.
Zayn’s mother is white (English + Irish). And he’s so famous among teenage girls (I mean there was literally the whole “cut4zayn” circus going on when he left 1D), of course many ardent fans voted for him. And if you look at all the men used for the survey- it’s filled with popular actors, artists and athletes.
Ireland was voted #1 in that survey, and I’m not surprised because they used Colin Farrell, but here’s another report from an Irish site, 2020-
Safe to say that the MissTravel survey was pretty skewed because they used popular people.
Another point they post in those Reddit comments is IQ scores – They quote the scores from “IQ and the Wealth of Nations”, 2002, by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen-
India’s IQ is listed as 82 and Pakistan is 84, needless to say, they love to brag about those 2 points.
However, if you take a look at the sources, there are 13 different papers listed while taking into account India’s IQ. And out of 13-
1 paper measures IQ scores of Kond tribals in Odisha
3 other papers measure the effects of consanguinity on IQ
1 paper involves scores from Kolkata and Agartala (Kolkata is 7 points higher), but the scores are mixed together.
I couldn’t find a few of the other papers online, wanted to know whether the populations they used were rural or urban.
Like @Prats said, we need a blog or something to clear such mess/propaganda
With regards to IQ stuff, instead of listening to biased people of different stripes on race and IQ of brown people.
I encourage brown people to watch the documentary “daughters of destiny” about am Indian origin millionaire who retired and opened a boarding school in India for poorest of the poor…
The school is 95% south indian dalits, and accepts boys and girls from only the poorest families based solely on need and in accordance with its rule of only accepting 1 child per family.
Then their foundation pays for a world class education, food, and healthcare at the private boarding school and also helps fund their college.
This has been going on for a couple of decades. Many of the kids have now graduated, some of them work in complex high IQ fields (medicine, finance, law etc).
You will be able to a feel for their intelligence or lack there of, since he decided to educate the kids in English.
One of the points in the documentary series hit me quite emotionally when I realized one of the kids would have a very different life trajectory from her sibling.
Seems clear to me the limiting factor in India is not IQ or individual cognitive capacity, it is a lack of opportunity.
Sumit, Thanks will be sharing on FB
2017 article The girls will live at Abraham George’s institution until graduation and university beckon, something that is just a dream for their siblings. The school accepts only one child from each family, in the hope that their improved life chances will benefit the whole clan.
I’d say that the average Indian IQ should be comparable to that of South American Latinos (Costa Rica and Argentina), which is to say that it is higher than what it is currently thought to be. This would mean that if the human capital is appropriately used, India would eventually become an upper-middle income country- a considerable improvement from the current low-middle income status (and roughly at the middle of the low-middle group).
On the other hand, I doubt that Pakistan will ever get it’s act together to get to that stage.
@IsThisReal He has plenty of account he has been banned again by the way he claims that Brahmagupta was Sindhi when he came from Rajasthan and he also claims tha Gujarat is historical Pakistani land. He has also larped as a guy with a Sikh girlfriend who once came to India and was 6foot with a look of a European.In reality the guy is supposedly a 28 year old incel who has never talked to women before he claimed that in one of his previous Reddit account guy is mentally deluded.
Any other Desi immigrants to USA/UK/Canada/other Gora Lands don’t understand why dogs are such a big part of people’s lives here? Other desis I know are nervous around the big dogs here too. The usually white owners are always going “He’s friendly, don’t worry, he won’t bite!” or “He just wants to play with you, bro!” as the beast slobbers all over you, bares its teeth and barks the roof down. Don’t even mention the self-proclaimed “dog moms” and Namaste types who pride themselves on having “rescue dogs” (which usually have aggression/behavioral problems). You didn’t “rescue” a dog from a burning building or from drowning in a river, you just went to a pound and paid a guy, you cheap fuck.
I always thought dog is replacement for kids in Europe
“why dogs are such a big part of people’s lives here? ”
Aren’t they fairly popular in India as well ?
They are cute. Kinda too needy. Cats are more chill.
I mean these are the same people who are into “cucking” as a fetish. There’s bigger things to criticize them on. Wokeness in particular.
next weekend a paper will come out that shows 2 individuals from 500 BC or so in Lebanon have clear Indian ancestry. haplgroup L that is similar to the stuff you find in Pakistan today. genome-wide shift to indians.
hypothesis due to the persian conquest
Very cool. DO you know if they will ever test anything related to the Mittani?
Thanks for the heads up Razib, sounds interesting.
Thanks Razib for the info. That’s something to look forward to. Let us see where those Indians hailed from.
Love your posts.
Yeah, I know.
He LARPed as a an Indian Sikh a few weeks back. Claimed that all Indians are hateful and Pakistanis are peaceful and generous people, and that he realized this after moving to Canada. And then he proceeds to post links to his “materia islamica” garbage (a Sikh posting links to materia islamica, how believable).
I reported that account and told the mods that he’s the one who made the fake account. Thankfully they banned it within a few hours.
Seen many other such fake accounts where the Pakistani nationalists pretend to be Hindus and Sikhs.
@IsThisReal Yes i remember him larping as a sikh that site of his is usual islamist propoganda the guy is a jihadist but one who doesn’t have the balls to go all the way so he sits on the internet and spews his nonsense interacting with pakistanis online will move anyone to right.He is also probably one of those who calls himself South Asian.
“???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ??????? (?????????? ???) ???? ????? ? ?????????? ?? ????????? ????????? ?? ????.”
Which site was it?
I could only find this one site with a penis sizes table-
And it clearly lists Indians as being more well-endowed than Pakistanis.
Speaking of penises. Did any of you know that Keiran Lee (real name is Adam Diksa, very popular male pornstar) is actually half Indian (Punjabi dad)?
lol, a literal dick measuring contest.
Fascinating discussion. Wonder how much of the anti-India hate in these Paki online forums mentioned comes down to internet anonymity? I think online anonymity brings out the worst in people.
Personally the Pakis I’ve met in the UK have been very friendly, to my initial surprise. Growing up in Mumbai and losing an acquaintance in the 2008 attacks, I’d a very negative perception of the country but I’ve learned to separate the country (still a rogue agent) from the people to some extent. I’ve a few colleagues, young Pakis who came for Uni and stayed to work who are your standard issue Punjabis with a love for Bollywood, etc. A couple of Pathans from an elite army background who could pass for Lebanese, but they overcompensate for that with their OTT desi-ness. Granted that these are the social elites from the country and not representative of the larger populace, unlike the Indian immigrants who I think are a more representative cross section of society. The Mirpuri taxi drivers instantly switch to Hindi when they’d ask where I’m from, and love talking about cricket, etc. And when the topic world veer to politics, they’d say that all politicians are the same, corrupt, etc. The stereotypes about tall, fair, etc are all just that – stereotypes that don’t stand IRL to anyone who’s got a pair of eyes
“In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة taqiyyah, literally “prudence, fear”) is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution.
A related term is Kitmān (lit. “action of covering, dissimulation”), which has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission.
This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. The practice is much less prominent in Sunni Islam, but may be permitted under certain circumstances such as threats to life (though martyrdom in such instances is still regarded as more honourable).
Taqiyya was initially practiced under duress by some of Muhammad’s Companions. Later, it became particularly important for Shias due to their experience as a persecuted religious minority. According to Shia doctrine, taqiyya is permissible in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby. Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics.
Yarden Mariuma, sociologist at Columbia University, writes: “Taqiyya is an Islamic juridical term whose shifting meaning relates to when a Muslim is allowed, under Sharia law, to lie. A concept whose meaning has varied significantly among Islamic sects, scholars, countries, and political regimes, it nevertheless is one of the key terms used by recent anti-Muslim polemicists.””
I mostly joking. Most people are friendly. But remember there is culturally sanctioned deception.
Taqiya is a common ethical norm among muslims in Balkan. It took so many years and too many lives for Serbs to understand this because their norm is 180 degrees opposite. Many times they have given their lives to fulfil the given word. It was extremely present during the 90ies civil war. Western media were not familiar with such practice and muslim politicians used this until extremes although, it is also present on the lowest levels among the nearest muslim-christian neighbours. It is interesting that not any muslim including so-called muslim-atheists(!?) denounced such ethics as unacceptable. Because, it is questionable in a case of another oxymoron, muslim-intelectual, if such muslim, nominally atheist or not, can be considered as an intellectual.
The anonymity factor applies to most of them, yes, but the guy I mentioned (canadian_786) is at, well, you could call it the bottom of the rabbit hole.
He doesn’t care much about his anonymity, he mentioned his name (Farhan or something) on materia islamica along with his educational qualifications and other related stuff.
He’s delusional on a whole new level and goes through the extra effort to twist historical facts and portray that most of the inventions in the Indian subcontinent actually took place in “pakistan and islamic india” (that’s what he calls it). Him and many others like him are actively spreading falsified information on Reddit and Wikipedia.
He claims Gujarat to be a part of “extended Pakistan”.
Claims Punjabis, Kashmiris, Sindhis, Parsis and Pashtuns are all Pakistani ethnic groups that have nothing to do with India. And to claim this he edited the genetic data picture from a paper which took Punjabi, Kashmiri and Parsi samples from people in India.
Claims that all Pakistanis were Buddhists who accepted Islam to escape “Hindu persecution”
Claims that Sati is still being practiced in India
Claims that Brahmagupta is from Multan (they’re still trying to edit the Wikipedia page)
The list is endless
They’re currently trying to get rid of any evidence that shows Pashtuns exist in India on the Wikipedia page for Pashtuns.
They’re actively trying to rewrite history using Wikipedia, every page related to the subcontinent’s history that I’ve checked so far has been vanadalized. This is quite dangerous and something needs to be done about it.
Pakistani propaganda is way better than Indian propaganda. What happens when tour spy agency and military own the country and put all profits into a combo of military and information wars aka trolling
Most of these Redditors don’t have anything to do with the govt. or military though, they’re just jingoistic people with a major identity crisis.
Indian right doesn’t really try to manipulate history to such a crazy extent because it simply doesn’t have the need, they’re more concerned with the present, although debates about the past do eventually creep up every now and then. Whereas Pakistani nationalists are trying too hard to rewrite the past too. Hence the insane attack on Wikipedia by these people. The rest of the country doesn’t really care much about their Vedic past that has nothing to do with Islam.
They’re even trying to edit the Wikipedia page for Pāṇini.
Also, you said this earlier-
“They love to cite that BBC article and some global penis ranking website (unverified one) that shows a difference in endowment favorable to them.”
Which site was it? I only found this one site with a table and it shows Indians to be bigger-
@IsThisReal Yes i remember he came up with those genetics and claimed parsis are an indus ethnic group which is fucking ironic considering most parsis have always live in Gujarat or maharasthra which is india he also claimed that haryana uttarakhand and himachal part of historical pakistani land and also has said pakistan should be funding more terrorism in india so that it breaks up yes he claimed brahamgupta was from multan a lot of pakistanis have now started claiming that the mauryans and guptas were jats from pakistan last time i checked bihar is now where near pakistan even their language came from U.P the land that now make up pakistan have been the places that have always been invaded and most indian discoveries and inventions happened in modern day india not pakistan and that we are stealing their history these people are brainwashed beyond belief.These people also call you gangu imagine thinking a name of a river is a fucking insult.
One thing I notice is that the India vs Pakistan hate online seems to be a North West Indian Ethnic group Phenomenon (Punjabi’s, saraikis, haryanvies etc).
Moving further Indo-Aryan speakers like UP, gujju, Sindhis are a bit less involved than the mud slinging of the Punjabi-sphere.
Pakistani Afghans, Baloch, Indian Tamils, Assamese etc support their own country but aren’t as emotionally invested in the minutiae of the conflict.
So the hate seems to be concentrated within fairly similar ethnic groups. And the dissimilar ethnic groups don’t really have as much emotional investment in the conflict.
It’s kinda weird. The most dissimilar ethnic groups of the countries are actually pretty chill and don’t have a problem with each other. The most similar people are the ones that have the biggest issues.
Lots of stereotypes on this thread that I didn’t know existed.
Indian Americans aren’t stereotyped as particularly stylish. Actually in college the international students dressed much better. Americans in general aren’t known as stylish. That’s something we mainly reserve for Europeans or those who emulate European style. Indian-Americans emulating whites typically emulate the slobs and their woke language. They aren’t adopting eloquent speech/defense of free speech or wearing high class suits and suits but adopting the worst of white culture.
Did you miss
sbarrkum says: May 24, 2020 at 8:44 am Your comment is awaiting moderation.
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Somethings that I added to my lifestyle from past 6 months:
I try to do the following 2-3 times a week depending on time and motivation:
1. 5 mins of full body stretch from head to toe. 2. Shoulder width pushups (35-40) at once and up to 50 with a break. 3. 6 mins of “kapaalabhaati” with 4-5 mins of actual sweat breaking heavy breathing and 1-2 mins of break for the lungs. 4. 3-3.5 mins of plank. 5. 3 mins of “praaNaayaama” + 3 mins of “ujjayii” 6. 6 mins of continuous dumbbells (8 pounds)
Apart from the above I go mountain biking 2-3 times depending on weather and time. I climb and descend 1000 feet in 1hr15mins (11 miles), regularly I hit speeds of 25-27 MPH downhill. So, I am more of a cross country style.
My goal is to gain core strength and durability.
warlock Interestingly, in the UK during my time studying abroad, I notice, similarly to some other posters here, dark skinned Sri Lankans and S Indians shaving their heads and learning to dance, essentially co-opting “black American style and swagger” at decently successful rates.
thanks for the correction. No envy. Happy more AASI do better in more even ground. I wish it was.more fair in S Asia. If anything, the others need to learn from them.
I might be wrong, but I’ve noticed that with many of the ancient dna studies that provide y-chromosome data, the subclades aren’t particularly deep. Because of private testing, primarily ftdna, we know a lot more about sub, sub, subclades, etc. Is this because ancient dna not being robust enough to allow for the extensive testing of on the order of the ftdna Big Y, or is it a lack of interest? Maybe it’s in the supplemental data and I’m not expert enough to access or analyze it.
It would clarify if H is very old in the suboncitnent or a recent expansion from SW Asia.
As someone who suggested this, I wouldn’t claim that it is recent, it would have to be so old that it separated from the other H a long time ago and vanished from the hypothetical original homeland tens of thousands of years ago.
Even conservatively I’d say that if there was an H migration to India (assuming it didn’t come from the original ENA Homo Sapiens Sapiens Indians in the first place) it would have happened ~30,000 years before present.
I haven’t had the chance to analyze yfull but don’t most South Asians belong to clades that originated 20000-7000 ybp. The descendants of clades that formed 45000 ybp are primarily found in Europe and West Asia no? It wouldn’t surprise me if Iran_n is related to y H.
YFull isn’t the end all be all of yDNA research, however even on yfull, there are 2 sub- branches of H-M2826 in south Asia- one is descended from Z5857 with a TMRCA of 29,600 ybp and the other is M96 with a TMRCA of 38,800 ybp. IDK when these moved into south Asia, but they would have separated from the other Hs before 30K or even before 40K years before present. From here I guessed a movement entering south Asia around 30,000 years ago.
So far we don’t have a lot of neolithic and pre-neolithic Iran samples, but the ones that we do have show no yDNA H at all, meanwhile ancient Anatolians (heavily descended from locals going back tens of thousands of years) have H2. I was talking to someone else who was modeling south Indian middle castes and tribal populations and there was something strange going on with the Anatolian component appearing and disappearing with them. This lead me to guess that the H in south Asia could have something to do with 30,000 year+ old Levantines. Another assumption that I am operating under is that the 30,000+ year old Levantines would be similar to Anatolians. I picked Levant because there is an old separation and the fruit of this separation has thus far not been seen in ancient Iran so I thought that the separation would be elsewhere in the middle east- between early UP Anatolia and Aurignacian Levant.
lmfao. another edited one. Wow just wow
Pak trolls never sleep
@Thewarlock What have they changed this time.
They’re really busy on the ABCD reddit whining about Hindu nationalist LARPers. No surprise the woke crowd over there eats up their bullshit.
“They’re really busy on the ABCD reddit whining about Hindu nationalist LARPers. No surprise the woke crowd over there eats up their bullshit.”
The Araingang guy made the same post on the Sikh subreddit too. Great reception there given the anti-Hindu sentiment there.
Well I guess we’re just gonna keep losing ground unless we call them out and refute their claims.
Nothing is gonna change with us just sitting and talking about this on BP.
they have a voluntary army of Pak Punjabi Sunni religiously bigoted ethnic chauvinists
This one is epic. Modi is engaged in Dravidian supremacy !
big celebrations anticipated in TN once they find out.
Can’t decide what’s funnier, the fact that he’s the FM or the fact that it has 1.3k likes already.
Goddamn Indians and their *shuffles deck* Dravidian supremacist ideology.
Well I guess he is kind of right, you know.
Dravidians have won like 3 Nobel Prizes in the sciences (one of them is currently the President of the Royal Society) and a Fields Medal, and also produced Ramanujan.
Then there’s Vishy Anand and the fact that 2 out of the 4 youngest Grandmasters in history are from Tamil Nadu.
After that you have the likes of Narayana Murthy, Sundar Pichai, Satya Nadella etc.
“Well I guess he is kind of right, you know.
After that you have the likes of Narayana Murthy, Sundar Pichai, Satya Nadella etc.”
Only issue is that Dravidian chauvinists don’t recognize any (or most) of them as Dravidians.
Because they reserved the Aryan Supremacy for themselves! Don’t you know that this buffoons think themselves as Aryans? They can serve a Shreshta Brahman for thousand years yet they will never reach half the spiritual and intellectual quotient as a Shreshta Brahman.
like I said delusion never ends. They want all the credit for rapist grandaddies lmfao like I said. They want acceptance so bad as pure west eurasians. Funny thing is that they are nearly always perceived as brown, despite their love of trying to pass of cherry picked gilgit baltistanis and lighter pashtuns as their “typical” look
lol now Pakthings cannot even accuse Indians of exclusively venerating oppressive aryans lmfao
Wait I thought all Punjabis in Pakistan looked like Fazal Mahmood and all Pashtuns looked like Imran Khan.
It is weird though how Baltis look so steppe influenced. THey’re Sino-Tibetans for god’s sake
And the Burusho are East Asian admixed.
I see wing commander Abhinandan did pass on some state secrets while captured.
If H is associated with Levant or Anatolia that would be really interesting. I have my doubts as that component seems to be low throughout South Asia except Punjab/Sindh whereas H is omnipresent but weirder things have happened (little steppe in Iran for examples despite plenty of R1a and R1b).
It is natural to doubt an entirely hypothetical proposal. It isn’t even at a proper hypothesis stage yet, let alone at stage where it can be tested.
Look at the first response here:
I couldn’t stop laughing.
it is ironic they accuse India of genocide. Their delusions have caused (1971) l, are causing, and will cause more genocide in the future.
I read that and a few other suggested ones and my goodness. It’s revolting.
I’m finding it hard to decode the different views on the India-China border skirmishes at the Ladakh LAC, there’s too many opinions from all ends of the spectrum on this.
Some are downplaying it, while some are quite alarming https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/the-ladakh-warning-india-china-border-dispute-6427131/lite/?__twitter_impression=true
If there’s any truth to what seems the agreed consensus (heavy buildup of Chinese troop and hard infra on this side of the LAC), then the Indian army and intelligence has been caught napping at the wheel again. This, despite repeated warnings and skirmishes over the past months. India’s soft, bloated babu-driven diplomacy and defence policy is just no match for the CCP/PLA.
Question for the pundits – prior to being absorbed into the Dogra Kingdom, was Ladakh ever on the radar of Indian empires? Guess what I’m asking is has Ladakh been politically part of Tibet for most of its history or separate
Isn’t Western Ladakh home to Dardic Bropkas? Aren’t they the natives of that region? I would assume they had some relations with Indian powers no? Not sure about the history of the Eastern Region.
“India’s soft, bloated babu-driven diplomacy and defence policy is just no match for the CCP/PLA.”
Or even Pakistan of late. Diplomacy-wise, Pakistan is doing an excellent job isolating India by portraying it (rightly or wrongly) as Islamophobic. Once the Democrats come into power in the US, India is going to be all by itself. Defense-wise, we saw what happened last year. India got clowned.
Remember that the Chinese chose to act in 1962 when the US was all consumed with the Soviets in the Cuban Missile Crisis. Injection of the US air force in 1962 would have had massive impact on extended Chinese forces. China taught India and Nehru a lesson and withdraw from many of the areas that it had captured. All before the US could enter the conflict in any fashion as Nehru started throwing away the trappings of non-alignment in sheer desperation.
Right now the US (Trump) is consumed by Coronavirus and re-election. Trump has no interest in military adventures abroad. If there is doubt about whether the US will come to Taiwan’s aid in case China decided to invade Taiwan, very remote chance that it will help India in any meaningful way other than to ensure that arms supplies continue for the defense equipment that India has acquired from the US. And perhaps pass on satellite and cyber intelligence. So India is going to be pretty much on its own.
I think the Indian border is a side show. A feint. The real action is likely to be in the South China Sea / Taiwan.
China does not have that much to gain from humiliating India once again. It would rather sell more goods to the huge Indian market.
Its not a sideshow, its both show of strength as well as an opportunistic raid. The areas can be made defacto Chinese territory if India does not physically push the PLA back. Will India be willing to do that, and at what cost? Cost of live wiring the Indo chinese border which hasn’t seen a bullet fired from the 80s. The Chinese are testing that. BTW this is the repeat of Doklam episode where India moved into disputed territory to stop Chinese building roads, now China has done the opposite. If India assures it does not build infra even on its side of LAC , Chinese will move back.
India wasn’t caught napping. On the contrary, the whole reason of this skirmish is India’s buildup on the border regions. Earlier, the border patrols were only done by the Chinese (and they had no issues) , and in the last decade India has started patrolling and now both armies are rubbing against each other.
Finally on India’s babudom, why single them out, when entire ethnicities (Dravidian, Bengali) and institutions (JNU, TISS) are sinophiles? When whole population are chinese suckers then of course the people who come from and man those posts are anti american and in awe of Chinese.
Dravidians are sinophiles?
“Dravidians are sinophiles?”
Obviously. The only true loyal patriots are from the North and the West.
Obviously you’re being sarcastic but we have an entire country of essentially NW Indians selling out their people to CHina.
Well which 2 states house the Chinese party and the Chinese paper in India?
Communism was popular in southern India in the past, today it’s limited to Kerala, although none of this has anything to do with the Chinese people or Chinese culture or the CCP. They were inspired by the Soviets.
M. Karunanidhi, the longest serving CM of Tamil Nadu, was also into communist activism in his early days. He was so drawn into it that when Joseph Stalin died, he named his own son after him (M. K. Stalin).
Most Dravidians (especially the ones outside Kerala) don’t even care much about communism today, let alone China and the CCP which have little to nothing to do with their everyday lives.
The way we are going even mallus might say they have nothing to with communism, despite being ruled by communists.
No true Scotsman
Kerala is a sad place. Their politics have failed them. They should give up their politics and aspire to emulate states like UP.
“Well which 2 states house the Chinese party and the Chinese paper in India?”
The Indian communists don’t have the same nostalgia for China anymore. The smarter ones realize that the CCP is a Han nationalist party, their claims to communism are to gain support from the useful idiots in the left who don’t know any better. Most of the pro-Chinese faction (Jyoti Basu et al.) is dead or in their 90s. Commies can win in Kerala only as part of a coalition, as for Bengal it’s unlikely that they’ll win ever again.
Some of those hardcore communists are confused, they know that China got wealthier after switching to a capitalist economy but won’t admit it as they can see that it works better than a real communist-run place.
@All Not only in pakistan, some people in North western India also do this Read the first answer by gaurav https://www.quora.com/Are-Indians-more-specifically-North-Indians-a-different-race-than-Caucasian-Europeans I think, This guy is still living in 1980s era. Racial map was very funny though.
Yup, a lot of the same attitudes and beliefs of superiority you find among Paks in the context of Pak vs India is mirrored in the North+West vs South+East context within India.
TBH South Indians actually have facial shape and structure resembling Europeans more often. With NW Indians/Pakistanis its usually a resemblance to Iranians or Afghans (see Imran Abass).
I wonder why Indian Army is backing off now in the Ladakh standoff. I think they should use force. I would say even if India ends up loosing some territory if it puts a fight then China can be shown as the big bad aggressor who not only unleashed COVID-19 onto the world but also aggressively conquering the neighbouring less powerful nations. I think India has less to loose in long short term even if it ends up loosing territory only if it puts a fight though. This whole China border issue has been a big embarrassment for Modi though. All his hugs with Xi and trips by Modi/Xi didn’t give any results. Heck, even as Xi was visiting India PLA was encroaching on LAC. I am not sure if Indian side understood the intentions here? I think PLA/CCP made it clear by indirectly saying that disputed border is ours and this talks with Xi are going to be nothing about that? I think the world will understand even if India snaps. PLA/CCP knows the art of war too well. Meanwhile our babus know the history textbooks very well to crack IAS/IPS exams.
On a side note, generally Indians/Indian Army is perceived as weaker and not a proper killing machine. We boast about Yoga, ahimsa/non-violence, spirituality, meditation etc but at the end of the day it’s your bravery, aggression, cunning attitude that will save your ass and will bolster your image in enemy’s mind. I think Indian society in general didn’t develop the latter qualities. For a nation to rise from the ashes it needs both kinds of above stated qualities. Many nations like Japan, Russia, France, China, USA, England had to sacrifice at least a couple of generations to achieve what they did. On the other hand in India I don’t think we ever went through such rough times. During partition only a section of the country faced such existential threats but life went along in majority of the country. British left us just for the heck of it as it got tough to rule us after a devastating war. Just as India was being consolidated as a Dharmic state by Marathas and Sikhs the Brits arrived and took all of India by luck, might and their divide and rule policies. India never in reality coalesced into single civilizational entity let alone a nation state. China on the other hand more or less started as a civilizational state and coalesced into a nation state by slowly but surely wiping any diversity, although they chose to keep some diversity alive for the propaganda purposes. I don’t favour nation states, I think unity can be achieved even in a civilizational states and given some time civilizational states tend to understand diversity better.
How do you think history would have gone down if the British were butterflied away?
Also this is the truest statement I’ve ever read.
“We boast about Yoga, ahimsa/non-violence, spirituality, meditation etc but at the end of the day it’s your bravery, aggression, cunning attitude that will save your ass and will bolster your image in enemy’s mind.”
We shoul brag about intelligence, hard work etc but you need hard power which we lack. I also think we lack soft power but that’s another discussion.
The intrusion comes in the wake of India getting some kind of temporary WHO position and having to decide if they acknowledge Taiwan or not. So far India has decided to play the neutral game so China is pushing India to give a fixed stance- pro China non acknowledgement or pro US acknowledgement.
Interesting. What do you think India should do?
Also do you have more info on the Anatolian component in tribals?
I don’t know what India should do. I will ask him for his models for the south Indians.
“ This whole China border issue has been a big embarrassment for Modi though. “
I think u rate nationalism too highly among priorities for the Indian public. Unless there is full scale war, I would say Indians see patriotism as a nice to have feature. The best example is 2008 Mumbai attacks, which hardly had any impact on electoral outcomes just 9 months down the line in 2009 elections, either in Maharashtra or India. Also most of this patriotism/nationalistic fervor is a N-indian phenomenon.
WRT modi I see his image in general public hardly getting affected either way with this standoff. And the reason is his opposition consists of people who are seen as nincompoop especially when it comes to security matters. He is seen to have “done enough” and no amount of handwringing by his liberal or leftist opponents would change that. And finally China is no Pakistan so it doesn’t have the emotional attachment, and the public( which we don’t give them enough credit for) knows that dealing with China is tougher and factors It in their response.
Briefly skimming this thread I found in BOLD:
“Here are the tribes that spread the Indo-European languages from South Asia to West Asia, Central Asia and to Europe”
…with a respective list of languages.
I haven’t seen for long time something stupid as that. Even if it is coming from a self-styled linguist aka mathematician. But, even in this galimatias, one thing is interesting. In this long list of so-called ‘Indo-European’ languages there is not Serbian language. To play safe there are no other Serbian incarnations (Croatian, Slovenian, Macedonian, Bosnian) either.
It seems, the name of the game is – where is Wally? Serbian is actually hidden behind the different names (some are idiotic, but this is a different story). Some of the names where the Serbian language is hidden behind – Thraco-Phrygian, Dacian, Hellene, Alan, Sarmatian, Mede, Phryge/Phrygian (Bhṛgu), Bolan (in Serbian = painful) etc.
….The other observation….it was mentioned somewhere Kashmir and some recent Indo-Pak happenings. When I mentioned last time Serbian toponyms in Kashmir one anonymous guy/girl got personally offended and started jumping up and down, requiring from the Emperor Razibishka to prohibit my commenting. Those interested in such toponyms can find them in my previous comments. Just to repeat that probably all toponyms (anywhere) which contain MIR are Serbian. Ladakh is also a Serbian toponym.
How useless is the humanphneotypes.net website? Wtf is an Indo-Nordic? The .0000001% of Punjabis that look like Fazal Mamood and Hrithik Roshan.
Also pretty sure the Mountain India type was invented by a guy on anthroscape.
I asked about Bhirrana and Mehrgarh on one of the previous open threads and DaThang said this as a part of his reply-
“David Reich alluded to this back in early 2019 or late 2018. I remember seeing a map showing unpublished samples back in late 2019 and a few of those dots were in south Asia. IDK about the time period or any other details, but the data points needed for a paper on the topic of neolithic and pre-neolithic south Asia might already exist in a backlog.”
Does anyone have a link to this map or know where exactly the samples are from?
Yea I’m dying to see that map. I hate that Indian Universities aren’t taking the lead on this. I doubt Europeans care about South Asia without an Indo-European context.
Here is the map that I am talking about. The blue dots represent all of the samples, plenty unreleased.
Thanks. I’ve seen this before actually and from the discussion on the Eurogenes blog people came to the conclusion that the blue dots represent modern samples.
Oof, I know nothing about genetics but I’m still disappointed.
I hope I’m wrong.
On a related note what’s the consensus of Western researchers on whether the Saraswati river ever existed in this form. I also read South Asia was more temperate during its existence
Obviously there’s too much nationalism on both sides when it comes to this river. . https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-fraud-of-saraswati-river-hindu-myth-busted.419558/
Also does that Anatolian component extend to the eastern part of the subcontinent?
Okay I did some more digging.
Looks like the blue samples might just be ancient too, at least that’s what some people are saying-
Here was Davidski’s response to that person:
“That would be very strange, since the blue dots don’t show up in many areas that are covered by Harvard’s Human Origins dataset of modern samples, but do show up in areas which are only covered by datasets of ancient samples.”
Likely ancient samples, and this is no secret, they have a lot in their backlog. There was yet another infographic, not a map but one that showed number of published vs unpublished samples, I don’t have it with me but I do recall that the unpublished number absolutely dwarfed the published number.
Let’s hope that’s the case. Looks like a ginormous cluster of samples from Balochistan-Sindh. And hopefully more dots east and south in India on the map are cut off.
@Jatt_Scythian: More recent work on Saraswati.
I think the river might have existed in at least a semi-perennial form. There is simply a lot of circumstantial evidence from the Rig Veda also. Unless the ancient Rishi’s were so weed whacked that they started seeing this things that includes a great perennial river in the deserts of NW India, Afghan-Pak borders and suddenly it vanished.
The 3 Indian of the larger states to have crossed the first peak of COVID-19 infections seem to be Kerala, Punjab, and Haryana.
These are also the three with the best HDI.
Though Tamil Nadu with its high HDI is still doing bad lately. Maharashtra, Gujarat, and Delhi are pretty much screwed.
UP/Bihar got in the game late but are going to get badly fucked now that restrictions are lifting.
Get out of here with your so called facts. We dont need u here. Why are u against our pure Dravidian AKA Scandinavian countries.
And stop this vulgar comparison of our glorious commie-but-not-really states with shithole states like UP and Bihar. Are people still alive in those states? And why?
“UP/Bihar got in the game late but are going to get badly fucked now that restrictions are lifting.”
Maybe not. Seems like it affects large urban areas more? Mumbai, NYC, Milan. There aren’t any large cities between Delhi and Kolkata, although there are multiple medium sized cities.
Who knows, just speculating.
“Seems like it affects large urban areas more?”
I think that’s because of population density.
Even medium sized cities in this region are extremely dense. Meerut, Kanpur, Varanasi, Lucknow, Patna etc
Could be catastrophic.
This is why I keep harping that Pakistanis don’t just have territorial differences with us, they irrevocably/implacably hate us and should be paid back in the same coin. These guys had ceded Shaksgam to their sugar daddy and maybe will happily hand over Ladakh too if given a chance. I mean if it is about territory why doesn’t Pakistan or their Jihadi proxies fight over Aksai Chin too?
The reassuring thing is that even their brightest and most powerful are dull as dirt and completely devoid of thoughtfulness as repeatedly shown by FM Qureshi.
The simpler explanation is that India is our enemy and China is our ally (because it is also India’s enemy). Supporting your ally in a border dispute with your common enemy makes perfect sense.
This whole situation wouldn’t have arisen if Kashmir was not Disputed. If Pakistan didn’t claim it, we would not get involved either way in India-China issues. Also, the enimity would be much less (if it even still existed). Most of the wars since Partition have been fought over Kashmir.
It is interesting though that Indians love to foam at the mouth over Pakistan but when China invades “your” territory, there’s nothing much you can do. Even your media prefers to show that a pigeon has been captured from Pakistan (lol) rather than dealing with the fact that you all have lost territory in Ladakh.
‘Only because of Kashmir’ is another quip employed right next to ‘Partition could be avoided only if Congress did….’
For all the love of disputed princely state of J&K that Pak professes (with reference like jugular vein) they seem to be really eager to hand it over to china at drop of hat. And then what remains is this empty rhetoric of teaching India a lesson.
The facts about 62 war as well as current situation are well discussed in India including media. In no way similar to Pak where they deny, then throw tantrums, and then invent false history to cover up failures.
And just like Doklam no one has ceded any land
There is nothing wrong with settling the Pakistan-China border by giving China the Trans-Karakoram Tract. This is a provisional settlement pending the resolution of the Kashmir Dispute. If that territory eventually becomes part of India, China will settle the border with India. In reality though, G-B will remain with Pakistan so the Pak-China border isn’t going anywhere.
I do believe that if it were not for the territorial dispute, India-Pakistan relations would be a lot better. Yes, there was a lot of bloodshed at Partition but the scars of that would have healed after a decade or so. It is a fact that all Indo-Pak wars (except 1971) were fought over Kashmir. If the territory had gone to Pakistan in 47, there would have been no reason to fight any wars with India.
‘There is nothing wrong with settling the Pakistan-China border by giving China the Trans-Karakoram Tract.’ ‘Pakistan doesn’t criticize China’s treatment of the Uyghurs because China is an important ally.’ There is nothing wrong in anything Pak does. Its just cutting nose to spite at you face kind of logic. With such logic they could even sell Balochistan to china. Unfortunately there’s no cure for Pakistan syndrome
‘I do believe that if it were not for the territorial dispute, India-Pakistan relations would be a lot better.’ You believe in lot of things, doesnt make them right
a) It’s our border with China. So we had the right to settle it however we liked. As I said, it’s a provisional settlement. If India ever controls G-B, China will have to renegotiate that border with India. Giving China some land in order to get an important ally against India seems like a good deal.
b) It is a fact that every Indo-Pak war (with the exception of 1971) has been about Kashmir. If that territorial dispute didn’t exist, there would be no reason for such enmity between the two countries. We may still not have been the best of friends, but we would probably have been neutral towards each other instead of at each other’s throats.
“It is interesting though that Indians love to foam at the mouth over Pakistan but when China invades “your” territory, there’s nothing much you can do.”
Soldiers from both sides from injured in the standoff, don’t know what you base your statements on.
On the contrary, what you just said actually applies well to Pakistan.
You love to call India (and Israel) “Islamophobic” and “intolerant”, however you refuse to say anything at all about China’s Uyghur camps.
And not just Pakistan, several Islamic countries actually even defend China’s crackdown on the Uyghurs. Not a single one of them has criticized China yet (Turkey did try, but Erdogan later did a 180 and claimed everything is fine in China).
India isn’t silent about its issues with China, Pakistan is though.
Pakistan doesn’t criticize China’s treatment of the Uyghurs because China is an important ally. Publicly embarrassing your ally is not a good move. This is certainly hypocritical but that is how geopolitics works. Countries don’t attack their allies but go all out against their enemies.
India loves to pretend it is a superpower but China is the actual superpower in the region. It’s easy to beat up on Pakistan but not so easy to fight the Chinese. It’s quite telling that even when Chinese soldiers have entered into “Indian” (actually Occupied) territory, the Indian media is going on about the Pakistani pigeon you all captured.
If you think India is able to push China out of any territory it wants to acquire, you are sadly misguided. Can’t bully a country more powerful than you are, unfortunately.
“India loves to pretend it is a superpower but China is the actual superpower in the region.”
China is certainly a stronger force in terms of the level of influence it has, no debating it, but India doesn’t “pretend” to be a superpower, it does indeed have a lot of influence, whether you like it or not.
The recent OIC meeting was a good example. Pakistan tried labeling India “Islamophobic” and wanted everyone to take some action, but they got snubbed by the Maldives and UAE.
“Indian media is going on about the Pakistani pigeon you all captured.”
I didn’t even know about this until you mentioned it. And if you think this was a tactic to somehow ‘divert attention’ then I don’t know what else to day. Most of the media is still focusing on the China issue, nobody is steering away from it like you claim. There are news reports about the whole issue being published every few hours by pretty much every media house, yet you choose to pick that one report about a pigeon with markings on it, insinuating that India isn’t doing anything about China.
“If you think India is able to push China out of any territory it wants to acquire, you are sadly misguided. Can’t bully a country more powerful than you are, unfortunately.”
Well if you maybe actually read any reports about the Indo-China conflict (and not report about pigeons), you would know that China is trying to pressure India into stopping the construction of roads and an airbase in Indian territory, not acquire territory (at least not right now). It’s about whether India can resist China’s bullying, not whether India can bully China or not.
And China already has a huge messy situation in the South China sea too, which involves multiple countries. They have a lot on their plate.
Bottom line is China is not Nepal or even Pakistan. You all can’t mess with China and you know it. Sorry reality hurts so much.
There are only two superpowers on earth right now: The US and China. India is not even close, though of course you all want to be the regional hegemon. However, since Pakistan has nuclear weapons, we will not be bullied by you.
Honestly, I don’t really care that much about the details of the India-China border. But it is certainly a bit satisfying to see India being bullied for once instead of the bully as it usually is.
Love how you all think you are so great, when you’re only a regional power.
‘ India loves to pretend it is a superpower’ India has never pretended other than in your mind where it hurts maybe. It is a regional power and you feel effects of that.
‘Bottom line is China is not Nepal or even Pakistan’ Bottom line is you keep on making points that have no basis in reality. You said India is ignoring China’s activities for some pigeon. Turned out to be false. I dont know why anything from Pakistan should be ignored because china is upto something. That doesnt mean china’s acts are unchallenged. And we know China is not pakistan. Doesnt take a genius to tell that.
‘However, since Pakistan has nuclear weapons, we will not be bullied by you. And so does India, to not get bullied by china in same rhetoric. And the bullying is relative. Pak bullies Afghans as their 5th province. So no need to show how pious you are. People trying to play rogue state should not lecture others.
‘Honestly, I don’t really care that much about the details of the India-China border. But it is certainly a bit satisfying to see India being bullied for once instead of the bully as it usually is. Love how you all think you are so great, when you’re only a regional power.’ It seems you care a lot from your comments.When they dont stick you usually say you dont care. Take all the satisfaction you want. Thats the max you will get in Kashmir. Also really sad to get snubbed around by ‘only a regional power’.
Wow, so butthurt. You people are pathetic.
Glad at least one country is showing you your place.
As for Kashmir, you Hindutvadis have not yet been able to get Azad Kashmir and G-B. Just try taking one inch of Pakistan’s territory and see what we do to you. It’s no longer 1971. India can never break Pakistan again.
Relax! You keep having meltdowns ever so often when your PC viewpoints gets challenged. Last time that happened you complained that this whole BrownPundits platform is hindu RW. And the thin veneer of being left and woke gets exposed in these sudden outbursts exposing the paknationalist in you
‘Glad at least one country is showing you your place.’ As a client state you have no seat at the table. Let others sort it out for you.
‘As for Kashmir, you Hindutvadis have not yet been able to get Azad Kashmir and G-B.’ The same hindutvadis have brought Azad kashmir and GB back in conversation which was focused exclusively on valley. That itself is noteworthy. Finally Pak is bound to declare victory on exact same point.
You don’t like being bullied. So don’t do it to other countries. Right now you all are building roads through Nepali territory as well as Occupying Kashmiri Muslim land. No one likes the regional hegemon.
You can keep pretending that AJK and G-B are “Indian” territory and showing as India on your maps (and now even including them in your domestic weather reports) but the truth is that the Muslims of those regions have no desire to be part of Hindu India and they haven’t been part of your country ever since it was created in 1947.
India will never get AJK and G-B. Pakistan can also not take the Valley militarily. The only solution is a diplomatic one that addresses the legitimate needs of all stakeholders–especially of the Kashmiri people who are the natives of the land.
I’m not a “Paknationalist”. I have great respect for Nehruvian India (which Hindu Hriday Samrat is destroying daily). I don’t think Pakistanis are racially different from Indians or superior. In fact, “Indian” is not a race but a nationality. I simply don’t like it when you all act like the regional bully. That’s why it is nice to see the shoe on the other foot for once.
You are back at enumerating all your points like you always do and talking about Kashmiri muslim land. Seems like your happy place. Enjoy !
Current crisis is not result of India’s action but according to china plan. That nepal under oli made a outsized claim at same time china flexes it muscle. It was coordinated. Nepal has since taken a step back as domestic politics intervened. India is building road on their side of border exactly because it has weak infra vis a vis china in event of confrontation.
China is trying to put roadblocks in that design. This is in accordance to what it is doing in South China sea. India did stand up in doklam and will do same now.
Rest Pak getting happy about it and you repeating your list of complaints is nothing new. That is just not letting a good opportunity waste. I don’t think those points need to be answered again or focus of discussion changed.
When you all unilaterally made Ladakh a “Union Territory”, China warned you that it would take action. That’s exactly what’s happening now.
Your own media has noted the lack of “fire and brimstone” because you are dealing with a country that is actually stronger than you. I’m enjoying you people being bullied for once.
You Indians are really something else. Pathetic.
Got your point of injury. Article 370 abolition. Again powers that matter were informed that this change doesn’t change any of the working boundaries. The claim from all parties is not dependent on how India internally handles the land in its control. Quite similar to pak china boundary swap or cpec. Only you are making connection for whatever your psychological need to get back at India. Well expect no change on that front.
There is no respite for Pak nationalist and they are having jingoistic celebrations at events not even involving them. Thats surely worse even than vain confrontational positions taken on Indian news channel that you mentioned.
And you are textbook def. Of pak nationalist. Read your own comments for confirmation
If you think I’m a “Paknationalist”, you don’t know any real Paknationalists. They are the people who believe Muhammad bin Qasim was the first Pakistani.
I simply don’t like bullies and am glad that India is being pushed around for once.
You are most welcome to be happy about any problem your adversaries have. I have no issues. Just don’t claim moral high ground while doing so.
If you don’t like bullies china is the biggest one globally or atleast around indian subcontinent. You can ask countries in far off south east asia for that. Or did India somehow also cause that?
Your problem like most pak nationalist is the strange need to cause harm to others ( specially India) even at personal loss aka pakistan syndrome. That is seen in statements coming out of pak officially which are trying hard to somehow get back at India making tenuous connections.
The failure at every forum to raise a storm after last year’s decision is frankly starting to affect pak right from top.
That FM Qureshi is entertainment personified. Recently he attacked India being ‘dravidian supremacists’ on twitter which he deleted.
What’s the potential for India in team sports such as rugby, lacrosse and soccer?
lacrosse isn’t international enough to be a worthy investment. soccer I can see because mant body types can do it. India would benefit from switching to soccer instead of cricket nation. Rugby can be played by the current kabbadi players probably
As someone who has played soccer at a decent level and followed it intently for more than a decade, cricket is a better sport overall. It creates more arresting narratives, leverages more physical dexterity and requires high levels of strategy, planning and leadership.
The other sports like rugby, lacrosse and American football are not even close to soccer. We overcame colonization decades and have created our own markets for sports and entertainment. We are no longer subject to the Western gaze like first generation American Indians are, so your suggestions do not resonate.
Is there a class divide in India with regards to soccer vs cricket?
I feel like Cricket is a sport of the masses.
European soccer seemed popular among a certain westernized Indian crowd. But I am not sure?
“I feel like Cricket is a sport of the masses.
European soccer seemed popular among a certain westernized Indian crowd. But I am not sure?”
This is generally true in larger cities but in some regions football is as popular if not more than cricket – Bengal, Goa, Kerala, north East.
I think football will make inroads this decade as it’s seen as more aspirational.
No need to switch over — why not have both cricket and football?
In the US, traditionally the most popular sports are American football and baseball (and there’s basketball, hockey, and soccer now as well). Many other countries have multiple key sports, too, e.g., football and hockey in Sweden and Russia; football and basketball in Spain.
Just create a good competition calendar. I think football traditionally is played in fall / winter / spring (at least in Europe). So football in the winter and cricket in the summer with some overlap? Football in Indian summers would be killer without indoor stadiums, and that’s probably a big ask given the limited interest and widespread severe poverty.
I wouldn’t want to get rid of cricket. I’d love to see the IPL become something like what the NBA/NHL is to basketball/hockey. The game needs to grow if anything.
I think such a calendar is naturally evolving in India. March-May for IPL, monsoon season for kabaddi (which is indoors), ISL from September to March, and international cricket in Oct-Nov, and Feb-Mar.
The only thing not working still is field hockey.
Okay I looked up that image on other blogs, some people say that the blue dots might indeed be ancient-
Would be nice if someone could find some actual confirmation
That defencepk link you posted-
The Pakistani nationalist posted the link to the Giosan et al. paper. I’m surprised he even did that, because it also mentions the following-
“Urbanism flourished in the western region of the Indo-Gangetic Plain for approximately 600 y, but since approximately 3,900 y ago, the total settled area and settlement sizes declined, many sites were abandoned, and a significant shift in site numbers and density towards the east is recorded.”
“Eventually, over the course of centuries, Harappans apparently fled along an escape route to the east toward the Ganges basin, where monsoon rains remained reliable.”
Would be nice to see them acknowledge that the IVC people left the cities near Indus and moved east towards the Ganges, given how many of them always try to portray that Indians have nothing to do with the IVC.
Haha he owned himself.
Do you think everything east of the Indus Valley was AASI till that point?
Rakhigarhi is east of the Indus valley and it was not entirely AASI.
Should have said east of the Indus Valley Civlization
In that case, it should really be called something like Indus-Yamuna cultural complex/civilization since it does extend to at least Rakhigarhi and Bhirrana.
Do we have any genetic data at all from eastern sites like Alamgirpur, Jhusi and Lahuradewa?
So far only the shahr periphery and the rakhigarhi samples have been published, nothing else.
Wealth of ME DNA out today. Hopefully we will have the same for South Asia one day.
like I said. their goal is to claim all that they perceive good and disown all that they perceive bad. Objective achievements like science and linguistics are things they rationally should want to jump to claim, even if unfairly, so as to enhance their image.
The “dravidian” quote, “pure” caucasians quora posts, Pakdefense twisting of genetics, and overt racist statements about “little dark hindoo animals” show an incredibly hateful and obviously irrational side. They view their AASI heritage as bad and choose to disown it.
No wonder they were hammering poor and helpless Bangladeshis until maa Durga arrived in the form of Indira Gandhi. I think even if it means to compromise with China India needs to single out Pakistan and hammer the heck out of them to get rid of self loathing morons of Pakistan who go around claiming all the nonsense. These people are threat to humanity.
I notice India / Pakistan comments on a random youtube songs and stuff are generally very positive and friendly wishing each other love and joy.
On some what more nerdy websites like Wikipedia or Quora they tend to be more adversarial.
Normally the opposite is the case, where the youtube comments are toxic, and the nerd comments are more well thought out. Not sure why that is.
@Kabir shouldn’t India not be bullied secondary to its nukes by your own logic?
China is also a nuclear power and therefore not scared of India. Their military capability is also superior to yours.
Pakistan’s nukes are the only thing that makes it impossible for India to bully us. We are not Nepal that you can blockade and build a road through our land.
If Pakistan had had nukes in 1971, Bangladesh would still be part of Pakistan. Conversely, if we didn’t have nukes today, there would have been nothing stopping Indians from crossing the international border and attacking the Pakistani heartland.
“If Pakistan had had nukes in 1971, Bangladesh would still be part of Pakistan.”
When you say this, do you mean that Operation Searchlight would have continued until its logical conclusion? What about the millions of refugees, would East Pakistan have accepted them back? Would the refugees (esp. Hindus) even want to go back?
Perhaps you should read up on the Dhaka University massacre carried out by the Pakistan army. Their goal was to destroy the Bengali intelligentsia like how the Soviets did with the Poles at Katyn. Yahya Khan said rather nasty things about the Bengalis, as did his generals. Even if East Pakistan had stayed, the union would be unequal between the western and eastern halves.
Come to think of it, how would nukes prevent Bangladesh from breaking away? The reason things happened the way they did was that West Pakistan did not allow the East to gain a political voice in proportion to its share of the population. It was mostly the locals who fought back, the only way the government could prevent a territory comprising over 50% of the country’s population from breaking away is by non-democratic means. Unless you’re proposing that nukes be used on your own land to deal with the Mukti Bahini rebels, now that would be a first.
If you think that Muslims in British India in 1947 had the right to self-determination because they were ~25% of the population, then by that same argument Bangladesh had the right to self-determination too by being over 50% of Pakistan’s population and wanting a divorce back in 1971.
when east pakistan seperated, the venerable morarji desai said that this is liberation of pakistan. i have head a commentator on a pak channel mentioning that sweets were distributed in lahore.
I’m not defending West Pakistan’s treatment of East Pakistan (which was frankly colonial). I’m simply pointing out that if Pakistan had been a nuclear power at the time, India would not have dared to start a war with the intention (as Mrs. Gandhi stated) to “break Pakistan into two”. The situation in East Pakistan would have been something like Balochistan today where Pak Army is able to contain rebels and secessionists or to Occupied Kashmir where India is able to suppress the freedom struggle.
The point is that since Pakistan is now a nuclear power, India can’t hurt us beyond so-called “surgical strikes”. Even then, our airforce was able to shoot down your plane and capture your pilot. So the nukes have made any Indian military action against Pakistan much more dangerous.
West pakistan should probably be grateful for how quick and painless the severing of the east was. It could have been a decade long indigenous insurgency that demoralized the west more than the east. The glory of the indian army would have belonged to banglas, albeit with a lost generation. West pakistan was strong in as much as it commanded the defence establishment, in a protracted conflict i’ll put my bets on the natives.
to contain rebels and secessionists or to Occupied Kashmir where India is able to suppress the freedom struggle.
Bangladesh had a larger population than Pakistan until 1995. an analogy to apartheid s. Africa might be appropriate.
The point was that if Pakistan had been nuclear armed, no other country would have been able to interfere in the conflict. It would have remained a domestic issue and West Pakistan would have been able to control it–not that I am defending that. Civil wars can go on for decades.
“The situation in East Pakistan would have been something like Balochistan today where Pak Army is able to contain rebels and secessionists or to Occupied Kashmir where India is able to suppress the freedom struggle.”
There is a difference in magnitude. Balochistan has ~12 million people and a pop. density of 36/sqkm, that’s less than 5% of Pak’s population. Koshur-speaking Muslim Kashmiris number about 6 million, that’s less than 0.5% of India’s population.
East Pakistan if it survived today would make up over 40% of Pak’s population, with over 160 million people and a pop. density of over 1100/sqkm, not to mention being a long distance from West Pakistan, even if Pak had 500k soldiers stationed there, that would still only be one soldier per 320 people. The only way to control such a densely populated land would be via some Stasi like secret service coupled with a ton of willing Bengalis. Eventually, even they would stop collaborating if they didn’t get a share of the national pie.
Frankly, I don’t see any way West Pakistan could hold onto the East, except of course via the democratic route, but for that, they would have had to allow themselves to be ruled by Bengalis, which I doubt they were very keen on.
The limited point was that Mrs. Gandhi would not have started a war against a nuclear-armed Pakistan.
No matter how much Hindutvadis want to break Pakistan into four (or more) parts, our nukes make this an impossible fantasy. No one will ever take one inch of Pakistani territory away again.
No one but you diverted the discussions from actual topic of China India border skirmishes to what hindutwavadis want.
There are enough maps showing parts of India as independent circulating. They mean nothing. No official intent to that effect is seen by India. So I don’t know why you are imagining injury that was not a topic at all.
Since we are discussing USSR also had nukes. Enough to destroy all countries on earth. Didn’t stop its disintegration. Real problem for Pak is economics and how to not become colony of China not India.
The point was that Pakistan’s nukes are what prevents us from being bullied by you. We have seen how you treat all your smaller neighbors (stealing Nepali territory is one example). Try doing that to Pakistan and see what we do to you.
Stop confusing Kabir with numbers.
People are still advocating for Munda in the IVC. What a joke. AAs not earlier than 2000 BC and that only in small parts of Eastern India.
China’s recent actions in Ladakh also probably have something to do with India’s unilaterally making it into a “Union Territory” last year:
“China’s Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said while commenting on Ladakh new status:
“Recently, the Indian side has continued to undermine China ’s territorial sovereignty in the form of unilateral amendments to domestic laws. This practice is unacceptable and will not have any effect. We urge the Indian side to exercise caution and caution on the border issue, strictly abide by the relevant agreements reached by the two sides, and avoid taking actions that will further complicate the border issue”.
China’s state-owned Global Times said on November 3, 2019, “Not recognising legitimacy of the “Union Territory of Ladakh,” China may reinforce its defence at borders with India, will firmly safeguard its sovereignty and territories and enhance communication with Pakistan and jointly oppose India’s move that breaks the status quo”.” https://thewire.in/history/how-zhou-enlais-ghost-still-haunts-india-chinas-border-dispute-in-ladakh
“No fire and brimstone here, no grandstanding or grandiose claims that India will destroy the enemy. All of that is preserved and reserved for Pakistan — when faced with a neighbour who is stronger and bigger, our news channels aren’t half as courageous.
Clearly, they are also following the approach take by the Centre, which is to tone down the rhetoric. That would explain their unusual self-control in the face of great provocation.
Which is a good thing and just as it ought to be: we don’t want the TV studios to turn into a war room with combatants battling across the table. The situation is serious enough without TV debates getting into the fight.
We just wish this sensible, down-to-earth approach was applied to coverage of India-Pakistan confrontations too.”
On a different note. Here is an article by Husain Haqqani – https://thediplomat.com/2020/05/pakistan-discovers-the-high-cost-of-chinese-investment/.
I do understand that Haqqani is opposed to the Pakistani Military Industrial complex and so he has axe to grind. Assuming his data is accurate, this may not apply for all CPEC projects.
Any comments? @Kabir??
DBL post remove
Is the above the “Indians” in Lebanon paper? Looks like it.
Central Asian in the Levant 2nd mil BC!!!
Also H1 and Q1b in modern Lebanon
Folks are reading 2 much into lack of animosity with Indo China relationship. The primary reason is not power imbalance (which is a smaller component) , but emotional quotient. That’s also the reason y India treats its other neighbors differently. Nepal-Hindu- so open borders, Bangladesh-muslim-suspicious-uneasy, Lanka-Buddhist-dont really care. Contrast India’s almost chiding behavior wrt Nepal who has just claimed India territory , with near constant vitrol against BD immigrants with whom India currently has the best realtions.
China neither shares ethnic or religious part with India, so its sort of an alien power on the border, so the TV discussions are pretty mundane and uneventful, it lacks lusture.
That’s the reason i disagree with Kabir than if Kashmir would have been solved earlier , India and Pak would have btter relations. Its the really the opposite as Kashmir wont be solved since India and Pak don’t have good relations. If not Kashmir, India and Pak would have been fighting on some other issues.
Pakistan doesn’t claim any part of India Proper. The only territorial dispute is over Occupied Kashmir.
If this dispute didn’t exist, the two countries would at least be neutral if not have good relations. Countries with territorial disputes generally don’t like each other.
Pakistani intelligence literally trained and armed gunman and sent them to target the Jewish community in Mumbai in 2008.
What territorial dispute does Pakistan have there ?
LeT is a terrorist group focused on jihad in Occupied Kashmir. The Mumbai attacks were also because of Occupied Kashmir not because we claim Maharashtra.
Indians claim Kashmir so your intelligence agency trains, arms and sends people to attack a bunch of innocent Jews and foreigners in Mumbai?
Also your country shelters Al Queda leader Bin Laden in a military town, until the Americans under Barack Obama send a seal team in without informing your government even though on paper they are allies?
India flawed as well tbh. But stuff about glass houses and stones applies if there is going to be dialogue.
No one here is defending the Mumbai attacks.
Additionally Pakistan claims the Hindu majority area of Jammu as well, also Buddhist majority Ladkh.
Which actually represents most of the territory by area of the state.
Pakistan claims the entire princely state, which was Muslim majority in 1947. You all claim the entire princely state as well, though the Muslims of AJK and G-B have never been a part of Hindu India ever since your country was created.
Using Kabir logic…
Pakistan was designated to be a land of the pure at its founding an explicitly religious Muslim state. The remainder of India did not abandon its pluralistic ethos.
So not hypocritical for secular India to claim a Muslim majority princely state at the time.
But hypocrisy for Pakistan to claim non-Muslim majority districts.
This of course raises the question that has never been properly answered, why should Muslim majority Kashmir be forced to stay in an India that has moved away from (pseudo) secularism and embraced Hinduvada?
There’s lots of hypocrisy from the Pakistan side about these issues, but just as much from the Indian side.
1) Pakistan was intended to be the homeland of the Muslims of BRITISH India, not an “explicitly religious Muslim state” There is a difference between a Muslim-majority state and an Islamic state. 2) “remainder of India”– There was no “India” before August 15, 1947. Pakistan was part of BRITISH India. We were never part of “India”. Both modern nation-states were created at the exact same time. 3) The entire princely state was Muslim-majority in 1947. The ex-state of J&K (prior to August 5) was still Muslim majority. Both countries claim the entire state and not just districts. 4) There may have been a case for Nehruvian secular India to contain a Muslim-majority state. Sheikh Abdullah believed so and that’s why he threw in his lot with Nehru. There is no case for a Hindu Rashtra to possess a Muslim colony.
I would be fine with Hindu Jammu and Buddhist Ladakh staying in India (minus Muslim Kargil). Also the Chenab Valley in Jammu would probably choose to go with Kashmir. But Hindutva India has no business keeping the Muslim Valley.
“ why should Muslim majority Kashmir be forced to stay in an India that has moved away from (pseudo) secularism and embraced Hinduvada”
Good point. Kashmiri Muslims represent a small percentage of Indias total Muslim population. So for India to go down the Hindutva path is actually fraught with problems far beyond Kashmir.
However I wouldn’t go so far as to say that India has fully embraced Hindutva. It is trending in that direction, but much of it is a sort of a populist reaction to some of the excess of the Congress dynasty and also part of a global surge in right wing populism (which has also happened in Muslim countries, USA etc)
I anticipate something like AAP or non-dynast led congress will emerge within next 2 election cycles.
I am pro Kashmiri self determination, but not pro seceding the territory to a hostile enemy state that supports random acts of terrorism.
If OTH seceding Kashmir meant India and Pakistan could be friendly nations with normalized relations. For eg. with more trade, and people from India could visit Pakistan easily as tourists, to see their relatives, and vice versa. Then I wouldn’t mind tbh and I think it’s a better outcome for the people of both countries and also for the people of Kashmir.
There is a lot of bad blood and I think the chances are low. But when I look at European nations that have buried the hatchet, I do think it’s possible.
“I am pro Kashmiri self determination, but not pro seceding the territory”
What’s that supposed 2 mean
@saurav – I think the following 2 conditions would have to be met a minimum for Indians to be okay with seceding Kashmir to Pakistan.
1) Kashmiris want to join Pakistan 2) Pakistan is not a hostile state to India
Indians would want to receive some sort of trade or economic benefit out of the deal as well probably for it to be politically viable. But I think that is a solvable problem.
The more difficult issue is trust. i.e. who is to say Pakistan wouldn’t resume hostilities afterwards on some other issue and keep sending terrorists to attack civilians etc. Especially given how unstable Pakistani democracy has been historically.
Like I said the odds are low. But I mean if France and the UK can put their differences aside, why not India and Pakistan.
The point is not about Pak claiming any part of MH. But looking at example of attack on Jewish place and aiding OBL it seems more than clear that the Pak has beef with more things than just kashmir.
They are self appointed leaders of ummah (in their minds atleast they think so). That dynamic would always have existed irrespective of kashmir issue. Therefore most commentators here are of opinion that Kashmir is not exclusive issue. Solving it however will definitely be good for whole region none the less.
LeT is an Islamist terrorist group so yes it has aims other than Kashmir. However, their ostensible motivation is the Kashmir Jihad.
No one is saying that if there were no Kashmir issue, there would be no problems between India and Pakistan. But it is certainly the major bone of contention.
Not just LeT though. That thought process runs much deeper right upto establishment/military. Non state actors are just the means from Bosnia to Mumbai.
I’ve never seen Kabir so aggressively Paknationalist before.
Congrats folks, you’ve broken him.
The double standard was always oblivious. But under stress people return to core thoughts.
The word is obvious not oblivious. It is useless arguing with illiterates like you.
Who do you think you are?
Calm down. Obviously that was a spelling mistake while typing from a mobile.
Literates could understand that I guess.
I think he’s joking.
haha..some of you were too naive (in this context) to see it 🙂
I’ve been here for less than a month but I’ve read lots of posts from the past (including the comments), and see no difference between the comments he wrote ~2 years ago and the ones he writes today.
If he posted many of those comments on this thread, they wouldn’t really stand out. I don’t really see any difference.
Maybe you know him better than the rest of us, but to someone neutral/average like me who read so much content from various years in just a few weeks, it looks the same.
China has disputes with all its neighbours yet it trades with all of them.
India and Pakistan barely have any trade with each other.
Not hard to see why the subcontinent is a shithole and will continue to remain so for the near future. Our priorities are messed up. (Or at least one side’s are)
Cutting the nose to spite the face.
So there is argument to be made that Indo-Pak should trade more, but i think there is less discussed aspect that both Indo-Pak do not have that much to trade with anyway. Both the countries have similar economics of scale (unlike China) and almost identical products to trade with. Neither really has Oil. Look at Pak-Afghan or Indo-Nepal trade, similar bottleneck.
So even in the best of circumstances there is a limit to trade here, since neither countries really depend on each other for essential commodities. Unlike let say Indo-China, or Pak-China trade
India-Bangladesh would be a better comparison than India-Nepal. It’s been growing > 10% annually of late. Currently somewhere around $11b. Big numbers.
India-Pak would have an even higher trade, I think.
Economically, it’d be much more beneficial to Pak than India. Our main benefit would be getting closer to Central and West Asia.
So Indo-Bangladesh wouldn’t be correct comparison, because BD does have relative better economics of scale than all other subcontinental countries. Its like comparing Indo-Vietnam trade. Both Vietnam, BD have world standard economic of scale, especially in lower end garment manufacturing. So they are the exception.
On C-Asia , its like chasing a chimera. Pak with even a subservient Afghanistan in the 90s had no meaningful trade with C-Asia. So India getting closer is a long shot. Those regions are too volatile to have any meaningful trade, and thats the reason only China is really interested in investing there given their high risk, high reward features.
So all those inter country pipelines and gas lines from C-Asia would mostly remain pipe dreams.
Re: Economic benefit 1. India does have economies of scale in some products. Automobiles might be one example. Also, needn’t be industrial products. Jio internet or cheaper flights would be great for Pakistani consumers.
Pakistani companies get access to such a huge but similar market for the first time. They should salivate at the prospect. What if you could get Multani mitti from Multan. Brand your stuff that way.
2. Opens up huge number of middle class jobs for Pakistanis. You already have Indian IT companies like TCS opening up offices in Dhaka and Bangladeshi entrepreneurs working in Mumbai and Bangalore.
You can’t predict synergies based off just raw numbers. The whole point of capitalism is that given enough opportunity, more wealth will be created for all even if it cannot be foreseen.
Re: Central Asia
Central Asia is more than just Afghanistan. CA is energy rich, India is energy poor. The marriage is inevitable at some point in the future.
Even if you discount Afghanistan, you can go around via Iran and Pakistan.
“Pak with even a subservient Afghanistan in the 90s had no meaningful trade with C-Asia.”
Lol. That’s why I said the benefit will be for India and not Pak. In any case, how much meaningful trade did Pakistan even have in the 90s except with industrial powers?
Pakistan doesn’t trade meaningfully with two of it’s largest neighbours – India because of some Oedipal complex and Iran because of sanctions. It doesn’t have meaningful trade with Afghanistan either.
No wonder it’s becoming a Chinese lackey. So much ‘strategic location’.
@ Prats I thought bringing out the Paknationalist Islamist would take much more effort.
If I’m an “Islamist”, you’re a Hindutvadi.
I’m among the most liberal Pakistanis and the furthest thing from an “Islamist”. But of course someone who denigrates Sufi saints clearly just has a problem with all Muslims. You are a truly pathetic excuse for a human being.
You’re the idiot who calls us “Acronymstanis” because just saying the name of our country causes you such great emotional pain. Loser.
Good trolling with all the likes that Kabir’s posts are getting (27 for this one) ..:)
lol what is going on? Is Pakdefense active?
Looking at the supplements of the south Levant group, I can’t see a single yDNA L-M20 among them, there are 2 Ts. Was the news about the Indian shifted Ls a prank or was there some confusion in the rumors?
NVM there is a mention of some Indus periphery in another paper but the other one doesn’t list it’s own haplogroups.
Also I’m guessing that “Central Asian” in the Levant is a Mittani Indo-Aryan. Pretty cool. Now I get to see a bunch of Kurds, Turks and Armenians fight for ownership over these “Aryans”.
One of the papers doesn’t have a haplogroup list openly available, one of the other ones has no L-M20 and the last one has 1 L2 sample which is not even remotely close to the south Asian subclades of L-M20.
What do you think the origin of L as a whole is? I’m not sure which is found in Iran.
Probably originated somewhere in or near Iran.
People are now arguing the Mittani is actually a slave like the North Caucasians found in Central Asia.
https://i.imgur.com/JGYG2K2.png https://i.imgur.com/8RW1JNI.png mt u5a, and mt i4a Any of those found in Pakistan and India?
The Central Asian in the levant belongs to mtdna H2a3.
Where were the Indus-perhipery samples exactly from again? Weird that they showed no BMAC ancestry but SWAT did.
India didn’t even win at Doklam. One of your own generals:
“The dispute resolution through an agreement that was restricted only to the stand-off site has emboldened China to occupy the rest of the disputed Doklam plateau with military assets, including the creation of permanent roads and military structures. China has, in reality, carried out a blatant aggression of a manifestly disputed territory. But the Narendra Modi government has so far brushed it under the carpet; instead, for the domestic audience, it has managed to sustain the fiction of ‘victory’ at Doklam. The constructions in the area of the Doklam plateau before the confrontation in 2017 and now are revealing.” https://theprint.in/opinion/china-has-definitely-crossed-indias-lakshman-rekha-but-it-wont-lead-to-1962-again/431490/
It’s easy to talk a big game when it comes to Pakistan but when faced with a real enemy we see how strong you Indians are.
Doklam is a case of China attempting to take Bhutanese territory. Your entire logic of ‘strong but supposedly weak country being taught a lesson’ doesn’t hold water when you appear to be celebrating the fact that a big country (China) tried to take a small country’s (Bhutan) land.
That comment came from an Indian general. China won but the Modi regime brushed it under the carpet.
India is the bully in South Asia and it’s nice to see you people being on the back foot for once.
“India is the bully in South Asia and it’s nice to see you people being on the back foot for once.”
What are your criteria for being a bully? The 4 Indo-Pak wars all commenced via preemptive invasions from Pakistan, Pashtun tribesmen in 1947, Operation Gibraltar in 1965, Operation Chengiz Khan in 1971, and the Northern Light Infantry in Kargil in 1999. This would appear as recurrent bullying behaviour to any neutral observer.
Even after all this, with the exception of the Siachen glacier in 1984 (which Pakistan never administered), the Indo-Pak border has remained unchanged with no change in the territory since 1948.
India has blockaded Nepal and now has built a road through disputed territory.
India continues to Occupy Kashmiri land and refuses to even discuss the dispute with Pakistan. When we bring it up at the UN we are told it’s a “bilateral” matter. When we attempt to discuss it bilaterally, we are given the “integral part” bullshit.
Mrs. Gandhi openly boasted she would break Pakistan. That’s the textbook definition of bullying.
Basically, you all think you are the top dog in South Asia. The only reason you can’t bully Pakistan the same way you bully the other countries in the region is because we are a nuclear power.
India refuses to talk to pak since it is a rogue terrorist nation. Its action over the years not only in relation to India but rest of world too have shown it. 9/11 brought the point home to west which India was talking since ages. Capture of OBL was final nail. Along with almost every major terrorist activity across world finds some connection to the holy land you think is being taken advantage of. The credibility of Pakistan to keep talking about Kashmir and be taken seriously has been seriously dented. Now a days it’s only dodging FATF when not crying over kashmir
About bullying : not one word from self professed underdog supporter about what has been pak conduct with Afghans? Isn’t Durand line disputed just like all other lines in South Asia based on British raj? What has Pak done to accomodate Afghans in this matter? When stronger in comparison show us one instance where pak was magnanimous.
Instead now you talk about doklam which is china bullying bhutan. So much for your anger with big countries bullying small ones.
Rest is all but oppression olympics that you have learnt from left and PC folks when you find yourself on weaker side. And teaching everyone else about high values that don’t apply to your own country which you defend. Charity begins in neighbouring country and it ends there.
“That comment came from an Indian general. China won but the Modi regime brushed it under the carpet.”
That comment is from a mallu general, and honestly while dealing with the Chinese that doesnt really count.
He’s still an Indian.
… Barely if i could add 😛
It is a bilateral issue because of the Simla Agreement drawn in 1972, which Pakistan was a party to. In bilateral discussions things don’t go forward because India is fine with the status quo. Even though India makes a claim for Pak Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan it’s willing to formalize the LoC as the border, which Pakistan doesn’t want.
The ‘solution’ from the Pak side would amount to India having to give away J&K to Pak or leaving it independent (inevitably to be influenced by Pak) without getting anything in return, this isn’t acceptable to the Indian population. Especially since Kashmir has historic and religious relevance for Hinduism, once it’s part of an Islamic state the Hindus would be unwilling to return ever again, and the ones present there would not be seen as equal citizens.
Indira’s comments about breaking Pakistan need to be seen with context, this was already after streams of refugees were in India thanks to what the Pak Army did in Bangladesh and brought stories with them. Yahya Khan himself said “Kill three million of them, and the rest will eat out of our hands” many months before the war and that’s just the tip of the iceberg, that is a couple of magnitudes worse than bullying.
India wants to pretend that there is no issue. It doesn’t want Pakistan to bring it up at the UN (which we are still allowed to do even under the Simla Agreement) and it doesn’t want to discuss it bilaterally. Not talking about the issue isn’t going to make it go away. No matter how much you all give us the “integral part” bullshit Kashmir remains Disputed Territory and on the agenda of the UN.
Even if Pakistan were to wash its hands of the issue tomorrow, Kashmiri Muslims will continue to fight for their freedom against the Indian State–especially since Hindu Hriday Samrat is bent on destroying Nehruvian secularism.
lol Pak speciality is terrorism, bacha bazi, sharia, genocide, and propaganda.
I like Kabir’s Pak nationalism mixed with far left superficial liberalism. He is like Imran Khan, just less of a playa
thewarlock: JJ brother! I remember the paen you wrote for a certain poster praising his intelligence and liberalness, only a few weeks ago. Better late than never 🙂
“bacha bazi”– Now, you have just come out with your usual homophobic crap.
You are the same person who carries on entire conversations about penis size, which I thought was the low point of this open thread. Also about whether Indians or Pakistanis have lighter skin. Really pathetic preoccupations.
this is a well known cultural practice. Imran Khan called it the “shame of Pakistan” in the main documentary on it. Just youtube it. They interview him about halfway in.
I bring up peer reviewed articles from high impact journals to dispel Pak Nationalist propaganda. It is their obsession to go as far as to lie about pretty much everything that is a physical trait. My only obesession is truth, something you tend to play fast and loose with.
Skin color? I am not sure what you are referring to.
And Bacha Bazi is pedophilia. It is homophobic to equate it with consensual sex between two consenting adults of the same gender aka normal and healthy homosexuality. Your conflation is homophobic, if anything.
No one is defending child abuse. But generalizing about 200 million people is unacceptable. It is a Pashtun cultural practice if anything. And age-structured homosexuality was historically common in many societies–not that it is acceptable in the 21st century.
But you didn’t sincerely want to discuss age-structured homosexuality or child abuse. You just wanted to tarnish 200 million people by association.
You people literally had a whole discussion about whether Indians or Pakistanis have bigger penises. Can’t get more pathetic than that. You are obsessed with physical attributes such as African Americans having “higher testosterone” or whatever. Reflects some real insecurities.
I didn’t talk about who had bigger penises. I talked about how Indian global rep was falsely tarnished by a single BBC articles and Pak people online taking glee in that and constantly citing it. I then provided evidence based material to show the shaming was stupid because the literature showed similar penis sizes between Indian, middle eastern, and white men. I only mentioned Pak men in the context if trolling Indians via source cherry picking, that too sometimes looking to unofficial ones.I referenced I talked about testosterone data in a discussion about sports. It was to talk about possible reasons foe the preponderance of success of some groups and not others. You want to play strawman now because you don’t like having fact based discussions. You like throwing around labels and insults. I do some of that myself. But at least I provide the data when necessary.
Also bacha bazi documentary took place in multiple Pak urban centers. It focused on the stories of street boys and their abuse by certain segments of the population, including local police and truck drivers, a geographically eclectic group.
You people are obsessed with penis size and testosterone. Typical stupid (straight) male concerns. And people wonder why there are so few women on this forum. Why would they possibly be interested in discussions about such puerile topics?
“Bacha baazi” and child sex abuse are not the same thing. But you don’t want to have a serious discussion about this and would rather just generalize about 200 million people.
It’s like “Halal, haleem, Owaisi”– just your usual Islamophobia.
I believe Pakistani military personnel also justified one of the largest campaigns of rape in human history on the grounds that they would be improving the genes of what they thought were racially inferior Bengalis.
I think India should have invaded Maoist Nepal and made it part of the Indian Union, but lacked the testicular fortitude to do so. It would have sorted out a lot of the parochial twaddle that goes on in that country…
Anyway, Nepal’s fate lies in an ever closer union with India eventually. They just don’t know it yet.
When u have a Maoist mallu handling ur foreign policy wrt Nepal while having commies supporting ur Govt in 2004, u expect India invading Nepal?
High hopes man
When people talk about past inaction they cannot hope for action, they are rueing its lack.
MAY 28, 2020 AT 11:55 AM Kabir: “As for Kashmir, you Hindutvadis have not yet been able to get Azad Kashmir and G-B.”
MAY 28, 2020 AT 2:51 PM Kabir: “No matter how much Hindutvadis want to break Pakistan into four (or more) parts, our nukes make this an impossible fantasy.”
He keeps using the term “Hindutvadi” (“you” Hindutvadis) and always keeps saying “Hindu India”, just like every other Islamist out there, but if someone calls him an Islamist, he starts whining and claims that he’s a “liberal”.
Your anti-India rant is literally the same as every Islamist out there on all the other websites.
I think you don’t know what the word “Islamist” means. It is someone who advocates for Sharia law. That is not what I believe in. I am a Nehruvian Secularist.
I am liberal in the Pakistani context. I don’t think Muhammad bin Qasim was the first Pakistani for example. However, there is agreement across the political spectrum in Pakistan that Occupied Kashmir is not Indian territory and remains Disputed.
I am not anti-India at all. I have great respect for Nehruvian Secularism. I will admit however that I despise Hindutva and hate how “Hindu Hriday Samrat” is bent on destroying the pluralist and inclusive legacy of Pandit Nehru’s India.
/I am liberal in the Pakistani context/ That is like being democratic in communist party. Really low bar. And which liberal hates another set of people like say Tarek fatah for having whatever opinions they have. You dont even want to have that person on BP it were upto you. Is that liberal ?
/I am not anti India , I am nehruvian secularist/ Thats why you are happy when India has problems with china and you are not even part of it. Would you rooting for India when Nehru’s daughter declared war in 71. You should if you mean above thoughts.
There is across board agreement in India too about Kashmir being integral territory including your ‘favourite’ Nehru. That makes all of us who oppose any role for Pak in kashmir nehruvian.
People thinking MBQ as first Pakistani should check with their doctors. That is not something any sane person would say on any forum. By artificially keeping the threshold so low you ain’t fooling anyone.
From now on only people who believe there actually exists 330 million gods inside a cow are hindu rw nutjobs. Rest of us are woke secular PC liberals who couldnt offend anyone or do no wrong. Now that this definition is set -Congratulations everyone, you are free to do anything and no one will be able to question your peity!
“That is like being democratic in communist party.”
…Or being a commie from a Mallu/Bong family.
If you go back and listen to for example Bhutto and other older leaders at the UN and such, they say almost verbatim the same things about India oppressing Kashmiris and Indian Muslims as Imran Khan does today. This newfound love for Nehru and this portrayal of pre-Modi India as secular is silly, especially when you look at what they were saying when Congress was in power. Pakistani leaders and many Pakistanis have always criticized India. Heck, Jinnah wasn’t a fan of INC.
I’m not a big fan of Hindutva and Modi has made things a bit worse but that’s about it; it’s not a new regime or sharp break from the past. Religious tensions have been simmering through the decades, perhaps even moreso in the past but less covered.
Its kind of similar to how libtards reminisce about the days of Bush, Romeny and McCain when it comes to Trump. At least Bush wasn’t a Nazi like Trump they say. But when Bush was in power they called him a racist Nazi too. Every Republican is the worst once since the last one.
Why should I have supported Mrs. Gandhi when she declared war against Pakistan? No Pakistani– no matter how secular– would support someone who openly wants to “break Pakistan”.
And Pandit Nehru promised the Kashmiri people in front of the international community that they would not be tied to India at gunpoint. You can look up his speeches.
/why should Pakistani support breaking of Pak…./ /…nehru promised the world…../
No one is asking you to not support your country. Do it proudly but spare us the ‘but I am nehruvian secularist ‘ and free lecture of how modi is not living upto ideals set conveniently by co-opting Nehru’s legacy when it suits you.
You seem to nehruvian only when it suits your position. Otherwise all I hear is how being muslim, islamic, being in context of Pakistan brings special set of dilution or concessions for you and your brethren.
And tht from someone who spends lot of time exactly defining what a certain term means and how we STEM graduates dont have a clue. If you want people to apologise for calling you Islamist then you could start by apologizing for calling yourself liberal.
Clearly you don’t understand that no matter how liberal and secular someone is, threats to the territorial integrity of one’s country are never acceptable. And just to preempt you, Occupied Kashmir is Disputed Territory. East Pakistan was unequivocally part of Pakistan.
I don’t need to prove my liberalism to you. “Islamist” is a slur and those using it for me clearly don’t even understand its meaning.
Done with this thread.
Again making an exception when it suits you. Part time nehruvian full time pak nationalist is better description.
You cannot prove things that are not true except when you are in charge of defining terms and do so adhoc.
“He keeps using the term “Hindutvadi””
At least Kabir spells Hindutva correctly. Indthings just called it Hindu-vada (whatever that means) and i got hungry in the middle of the lockdown
Since you like going through old threads, I challenge you to find a single comment where I have advocated for Sharia law. If you do, you get to call me an “Islamist”. Otherwise you must apologize for that slur.
“Since you like going through old threads”
It’s not something I “like” doing. I just went through most posts when I found the site, because I don’t know much about genetics or ancient history.
“I challenge you to find a single comment where I have advocated for Sharia law. If you do, you get to call me an “Islamist”. Otherwise you must apologize for that slur.”
Read what I said again clearly-
“Your anti-India rant is literally the same as every Islamist out there”
I’m calling you an Islamist based on how you speak to Indians and how you refer to India. I never made any comments about your stance on Islam, let alone Sharia law.
Although now that you’ve mentioned Sharia, it does remind me of a very ironic comment you made in the past-
JUNE 30, 2018 AT 5:37 AM “Someone who isn’t following shariah is not a practicing Muslim, whatever they think of themselves. I wouldn’t say I’m particularly practicing myself. It is for Allah to judge.”
You say that being a practicing Muslim is a very binary thing with regards to Sharia, yet you try to place yourself on some sort of spectrum/gradient.
And several (if not most) of your comments on this thread about India are based on “Indians claim they’re a superpower” or “Indians think they can bully anyone they want”.
Newsflash- NOT ALL INDIANS CLAIM THE SAME THING OR SHARE THE SAME VIEW.
Can’t believe I have to type something so obvious. iamVY addressed it once already but you still won’t stop.
Most (would’ve said ‘all’, but just playing safe) Indians here (on BP) seem to know that China has more influence and is also stronger militarily. Of course India is gonna struggle against China. India does have some regional influence, but nobody here (as far as I know) is calling it a full-fledged superpower like USA or China.
And some of your arguments (not even arguments, more like poor quality bait/troll) are so immature, they’re just basically “haha epic, Hindu India is getting bullied, makes me so happy”.
JUNE 30, 2018 AT 5:37 AM Kabir: “I am a grown and intelligent man.” Then act like one.
lol you should check out his Twitter, it’s even more hostile
Once again, I am not anti-India. I am anti- Hindutva. If you can’t tell the difference between those two things, it’s your problem.
Someone who is “anti-India” would not have studied Hindustani classical music.
The definition of “Islamist” is someone who advocates for Sharia law. Any other use of that word is incorrect.
Of course not all Indians are Hindutvadis. There are decent people in your country who believe in Nehruvian Secularism and vote for INC. However, BP is populated by Hindu Right types.
Last comment from me on this:
While going through old threads you should also see the blatantly Islamophobic comments from your compatriots. The Prophet of God (pbuh)has been called a “pedophile” multiple times. Completely unacceptable.
There’s one on this very thread even: “the only acceptable Muslim is an ex-Muslim”. If I said “the only acceptable Hindu is an ex-Hindu”, I can imagine the outrage on here. The hypocrisy is so blatant.
Your cherry-picking is blatant.
That person also said that they don’t even view Hinduism as a religion, it’s a geographical/cultural term to them.
By modern standards he was a pedophile, pillaging, raping, warlord pbuh. You can argue looking up to him for his religious revelations is still okay. But acting like a guy like that is someone who led a near perfect life and is worth emulating in terms of actions would basically make you in line with the views of ISIS and the taliban.
As Razib says, you yourself have denigrated Hindu Gods on the past, pbut.
Insulting the Prophet of God (pbuh) crosses so many lines and is completely unacceptable. If this was Twitter, I’d block you so I would never have to see any comments from you ever again.
I have never “denigrated” Hindu gods, unless pointing out the fact that Lord Hanuman is a monkey counts as “denigration”
Are there Indians who belong to y J1,R1b-PH155, R1a-Z283+, R1a-Z2122+, R1b-Z2103, Q1a and I2a without recent foreign ancestry? All of those have been found in Swat, Indus Periphery and Central Asia. Also curious about mtdna U2e, U4, U5a, U5b, K, I4, I5, J1, J2a, T1, T2, V and X? Any ftdna projects still show the distribution?
I am mtK1a and I have no foreign ancestry
Do you know the distribution of your haplogroup within India and outside? Do you think it arrived with Iran_N or steppe?
Nope. Just what 23&me told me. I share it with Colbert and Katie Couric
Why does Kabir hate India so much? This hatred is unseemly. Also, Its really pathetic to see Pakistanis going about gleefully quoting pieces from Indian media which are antagonistic to Modi and the BJP govt. Such a media does not and can not exist in their own tin-pot, army dictatorship of a country. That a Arundhati Roy exists and can say what she wants is a testament to India’s greatness and not her weakness.
Remember, only acceptable Muslim is Ex-Muslim just like an Ex-Christian is the only acceptable Christian. I view Hindus as a geographical and cultural term unlike the abrahamic versions. Liberal Muslim, liberal Christian are just Muslims in the garbs of faux-liberals. Never fall for that trap. Given a chance these exclusionist faiths spare none! They have shown it historically and they’re showing it in contemporary societies as well. I am a borderline atheist and a closet Buddhist/Daoist/Stoic/Dharmic time to time. Infact I feel that any person who sticks to a particular religion very strictly is always to be kept tabs on. I am very suspicious of people who are deeply or even superficially involved in a particular religion.
@Dravidarya – are you trolling or serious ?
Once again, I don’t “hate India”. I hate Hindutva. The Hindutva Regime is NOT India.
And people criticize Imran Khan and PTI all the time. That you think they don’t means you have never seen a Pakistani newspaper.
If you’re asking me whether I don’t trust religious people then the answer is YES!
Well, this is my cue to take a break from this site.
I have no problems with religious Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs etc
So long as they don’t use coercion to shove their beliefs down other people’s throats and threaten to harm people who criticize their sacred beliefs.
“There’s one on this very thread even: “the only acceptable Muslim is an ex-Muslim”. If I said “the only acceptable Hindu is an ex-Hindu”, I can imagine the outrage on here. The hypocrisy is so blatant.”
And they also said this- “If you’re asking me whether I don’t trust religious people then the answer is YES!”
Stop acting fragile and stop taking things out of context.
“You people literally had a whole discussion about whether Indians or Pakistanis have bigger penises.”
Did you even read those comments completely? You’re just twisting facts now and being dishonest.
The sole reason we brought that topic up was because many of your brethren keep bringing it up on various forums all the time, just so they can bash Indians. You’re the ones who are obsessed with it, not us.
You guys started the argument by bashing Indians, but if Indians call you out for twisting facts and lying, you immediately start calling us “obsessed” and “insecure”.
Zero maturity and complete hypocrisy.
You’re the master of cherry picking. There is no way to defend a disgusting Islamophobic comment like “the only good Muslim is an ex-Muslim”.
I’ve never indulged in a conversation about penis size. I’m not that pathetic. But only goes to show the level of masculine insecurity that exists among you Hindu Right types. The ironic thing about this is that Indians and Pakistanis are not even two different races but just different nationalities.
I’m somehow “cherry-picking” by pointing out that guy’s entire statement? Nice.
“But only goes to show the level of masculine insecurity that exists among you Hindu Right types.”
On the contrary, goes to show the masculine insecurity among Pakistani nationalist because they are the ones who started it and still always bring it up regularly.
You won’t call them insecure for starting this by repeatedly mentioning Indian penis sizes, but are calling us insecure for responding to it. What an unbiased and fair thing to do.
JUNE 30, 2018 AT 5:37 AM Kabir: “I am a grown and intelligent man.”
Not a single Pakistani on here engaged with the penis size crap. This is an obsession that you people have and it’s extremely pathetic.
You are good at cherrypicking and reading old threads and finding my comments without noticing all the blatant Islamophobia of others. Can’t help you.
“Not a single Pakistani on here engaged with the penis size crap.”
We CLEARLY MENTIONED that it was on sites like pakdefense and reddit, and yet you’re trying to lie about it.
MAY 23, 2020 AT 2:31 PM thewarlock: “Pakdefense types btw are quite gleeful. They love to cite that BBC article and some global penis ranking website (unverified one) that shows a difference in endowment favorable to them.”
MAY 23, 2020 AT 7:55 PM IsThisReal: “There’s this Pakistani nationalist (been banned multiple times, currently goes by the name Canadian_786) on Reddit who runs this garbage site called “Materia Islamica”, he keeps posting that BBC link about penis sizes all the time”
Amazing how dishonest a single human can be. You haven’t missed a single opportunity to act like a hypocrite.
Pakistani nationalists constantly commenting about Indian penises on various sites = okay
Indians replying to it on BP = “Hindu right has masculine insecurity”
“Not a single Pakistani on here engaged with the penis size crap. This is an obsession that you people have and it’s extremely pathetic.”
We CLEARLY mentioned that it was on sites like pakdefense and reddit. Do you ever read anything completely?
Pakistani nationalists speaking about Indian penis sizes on various sites all the time = perfectly fine
Indians respond to it on BP = “Hindu right has masculine insecurity”
For the last time, anyone–whatever their nationality– engaging in discussions about penis size is pathetic. Especially since neither Pakistanis or Indians are particularly well-endowed. It reflects masculine insecurity on the part of whoever has these conversations.
I’m done with this topic.
Here we go again. This supposed lack of “well endowment” isn’t supported by the data in high impact evidence based journals like Nature. If you would have read the article, it shows no difference in sizes between what was found among Indian men in Kerela and Euro+MENA origin men. That is literally what I discuss. I only mentioned Pak men in the context of their trolling on other boards via baseless claims or highly cherry picked ones aka the infamous BBC article.
Stop peddling BS. You are part of the problem. Maybe you have a small member. I don’t know. I am not engaged in anything but discussing evidence to refute baseless claims. Your fear of quantitative science is disturbing, especially in light of the fact that you are clinging to a false streotype. Good job
Stop shaming people for discussing anatomy and hormones. These discussions actually are evidence based. Why do you care, if it interests some enough to discuss? The testosterone, height, and muscle mass discussions were about how to maximize subcontinental peoples’ physical structure, in order to improve dismal Olympic games performance. You care about high class music. Some care about high class sports. I only call out those nonsensical NW subcontinental types who incessantly troll on the internet. That is the only time they are even brought up.
All that needs to be said is that neither Indians nor Pakistanis are blessed like Arab men are 🙂
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