Open Thread – Brown Pundits

By Razib Khan 202 Comments

The usual. Talk about whatever (that means Pakistan, Islam, and haplogroup H, I guess).

Second, please remember to subscribe to the podcast (see the links for the services). There has been a delay in some episodes for posting show notes.  Also, please post more positive reviews.

Third, this month is a Brown Pundits record for traffic. Indian readers who are new might check out my other blog, Gene Expression. Or, my other podcast, The Insight.

Finally, the comments have been OK despite becoming lively. You don’t have to be inoffensive or polite, but please remember at some point I do intervene.

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202 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

    1. Well if you want to sheet-anchor Buddha in a sequential reference to MBH and RMY, then the only source for chronology referencing all three are textual – the Puranas.

      After the War, there were 8 dynasties – Brhadrathas, Pradyotas, Sisunagas, Nandas Mauryas Sungas, Kanvas and Andhras. If we accept William Jones’anchoring of Chandragupta Maurya to 324 BC (big if), then the War happened in 1924 BC by back-dating the kings’ average span. This finds resonance with many Indian archeaologists (especially BB Lal school) who consider the OCP culture (Ochre colored Pottery) in the Ganga – Yamuna region of North India to be the MBH era. This makes a dual convergence feasible – textual and archealogical.

      This conflicts with the reading of Aryabhata (lived in 6th century AD) who conclusively judged it to be 3137 BC based on the positions of the planets and Sun in the Epic. So we have the help of a third discipline to synchronize – archaeoastronomy. Since then, this is considered as the definitive date by many traditionalists.

      A third important clue is in the MBH reference to the Sarasvati. The place where it starts to flow underground is called “Vinasana”. Balarama goes on a pilgrimage to the towns on the banks of the Saraswati till the Vinasana point. We have a very important clue here, in the Rgveda, the Sarasvati is a mighty river that flows from the mountains to the Ocean. But by the time of the Mahabharata, it has dried up somewhere well within the core area of North India.

      Multiple studies indicate that this would be the Ghaggar Hakra.
      https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53489-4
      It was perennial from 9.0 to 4.5 ka. Thereby establishing a upper limit for MBH at 2500 BC.

      Considering archaeology, textual and fluviology (3 disciplines are good enough!!), we get a target period of 2500-1900 BC. Hope that answers your question.

      Personally for me, the literature on MBH dating is what is convincing me that AIT/AMT cannot be on strong footing. Because this period (2500-1900 BC), this is basically the Mature Harappan Period. The dozens of towns (kingdoms) between the Yamuna and Sarasvati were the setting for MBH (?)

      1. thank you very much,
        it was confusing with oak (5000bc)and others(2000bc) differing.
        do you all feel that nilakant oak is speaking sense?

        1. Nilesh Oak is standing on one leg – archaeoastronomy. Its very hard to get behind something that is so limited in grounding.

          The Sanauli chariot (1800-1600 BC) is yet another hard artifact that is strengthening a date for MBH in the Late Harappan period.

        2. I wrote before about Mahabharata but, surprisingly, my comment was censored (to be fair, I think it was only that one so far). Instead of repeating this comment again, someone could first answer one of my previous unanswered questions – were the Kuru and Pandavas Aryans or not? After that, he/she can much eassier start searching for the timeline.

  1. America 2020 seems to be turning in America 1968. But nobody is changing their minds about anything. Just like in India after the CAA protests and the Delhi riots.

    (I hate to say this, and I loathe Trump, but I’d probably echo his tweets were I residing in the the US. I have zero tolerance for rioting and rioters.)

    1. “Delhi riots” – Anti-Muslim Pogroms

      The fact that you use “riots” reveals your ideological sympathies.

        1. I’m perfectly calm “man”. Just pointing out that in the English language there is a clear difference between “riots” and “pogroms”.

      1. pogrom
        /ˈpɒɡrəm,ˈpɒɡrɒm/
        noun
        an organized massacre of a particular ethnic group, in particular that of Jews in Russia or eastern Europe.

        How is it a pogrom when over a dozen (more than a quarter of the deaths) Hindus were killed too? It’s a Hindu-Muslim conflict/clash, not a pogrom in any manner at all. I would have agreed with you if it weren’t for the fact that so many Hindus died too.

        Stop calling it whatever you want to just for the sake of pushing your own propaganda and ideological goals. Only Islamists and “woke” liberals like Ashutosh Varshney and Mira Kamdar call it a pogrom, because they feel pretty cool acting all anti-establishment and what not.

        The Washington Post, retrieved 6 March 2020-
        “At least 53 people were killed or suffered deadly injuries in violence that persisted for two days. The majority of those killed were Muslims, many shot, hacked or burned to death. A police officer and an intelligence officer were also killed. So too were more than a dozen Hindus, most of them shot or assaulted.”

        And here are the names of 51 out of the 53 victims-
        https://thewire.in/communalism/delhi-riots-identities-deceased-confirmed

        1. BJP legislators chanted “goli maron saloon ko”. The “communal clashes” happened for days with the police standing by. This is textbook pogrom and only Hindutvadis argue otherwise.

          Not interested in getting involved with you again. Please cease addressing me.

  2. Just Heard the podcast with Abhijeet Iyer. It was good.
    He is truly a privileged , educated intellectual of India.

  3. “We were not oblivious of the fact that there is indeed a third party in the territorial jumble there, and that is China. Home Minister Amit Shah left nothing to chance when he said in Parliament that “we will bring back Aksai Chin even at the cost of our lives”. Then, there were the new maps, objections to CPEC going through Indian territory, the weather reports. A broad territorial status quo had existed in Ladakh-Aksai Chin since 1962. India made its intention to change this status quo public.

    Don’t ask me what is exactly happening on the ground in Ladakh. Are the Chinese on this side of the LAC or that? Because I don’t know. I can’t read satellite pictures. There is nothing like a LAC marked there, not even a distinct geographical watershed. All I can say is, I see no brigade-sized formations spread out there. How others read them depends on which side of the political divide they are on. At a time so polarised that even a 65-year-old, half-cent-per-pill drug like HCQ becomes politicised, you hardly expect much honesty being extended to satellite images of barren, naked mountains.

    What I can say is, this should have been anticipated and gamed before the die was cast on 5 August 2019. This Chinese move, like all others in 60 years, was fully predictable. Even the timing. It was only a matter of the snows melting.”
    https://theprint.in/national-interest/the-chinese-are-so-predictable-modi-shah-shouldve-seen-them-coming-on-5-august-2019/432079/

  4. “Third, this month is a Brown Pundits record for traffic.”

    One of these days some leftist media organization like Wire is going to pick up a comment from here.

    Then write about how BP is among a slew of rising ‘hindu right wing’ havens on the internet.

    This would be a feature story about radicalization of middle-class urban Indians a la “YouTube is radicalizing people into alt-right” stories you see in Vox and other such portals.

    1. It could happen then we can finally become famous that the Brown Pundits is the last place to all RW and not left settlers on the Internet.

  5. By watching The lastest podcast with Abhijeet Iyer its clear in this statement that the deficiencies in Indian Judiciary and Socialist tendencies of Ruling party with lack of Law and Order privitization,industrialization is dragging India down.
    Also Babudom and No tendency to Innovate and Research and Just rote learning to become IAS officer Or clearing other UPSC exams.

  6. I am getting Wire,NDTV in My recommended news . I am like “not again” as i used to watch NDTV back in the day and consider NITISH KUMAR in high regards. I also watched Dhruv Rathee for a year and a Half and then switching to Kushal Mehra.

  7. A quick question.
    What is the role of people like Gaur Gopal Das, Swami Mukundananda ,Dandpani. Why do they become Ascetics because of repetitive failure of some profound revelations. How do they earn money and what did they do with that if they are ascetics?

  8. In the previous open thread there was some discussion on why Pakistanis are so much more active in information warfare online that Indians.

    I think diaspora Pakistanis are generally much much more invested in Pakistan than diaspora Indians are in India due to dual citizenship.

    Most India-Americans only have some cultural association with India and even that gets attenuated over generations.

    Most nerds in subcontinent are short on time. They are also not autodidacts and neither do they have inter-disciplinary training to connect genetics and history research.

    So the burden falls on the diasporans, where Pakis have a more missionary zeal.

    I don’t know if this is even a fight worth fighting. If we do become rich, we can re-write all of this stuff later. And a lot of stuff is in the air anyway as new ancient DNA keeps getting found.

    1. Diasporan Pakistanis are much more Nationalistic than Indians who just want Mba/IT degrees from the best Colleges available.
      The culture war is ours to lose.

    2. Prats, interesting point. Its been commented here before that bangladesh is the only true westphalian state in the subcontinent. Although pakistan, like india, is a multi-national state, it is also has a clearly dominant linguistic group in punjabis, with a coalition of jaats who really run the show. Compare this to india where even if we were to take the entire hindustani linguistic continuum, from marwadi to bhojpuri, there is a huge range of jaats and folkways in a really large zone. How this manifests in the diaspora among pakistanis is that everyone seems to be connected to the same institutions and the Lahore-Islamabad political-defence axis in some way. The diaspora kids all speak punjabi inflected urdu, and the ABCD-FOB cultural chasm is not so apparent as it is among indians.

      1. Pakistan is a multi-ethnic state not a “multi-national” state. The only nation is the Pakistani nation. Everything else–Punjabi, Sindhi, etc– are ethnicities.

        1. Kabir, as far as I know pakistan is not a unitary republic, has provincial legislatures and moreover, the ethnic majority of each province is distinct. If it were the case that one ethnicity were the the plurality of every or even most provinces, then multi-ethnic state would be a more appropriate description. As it is, and much like India, each ethno-linguistic zone satisfies the requirements to be a potential nation-state. In fact, many would say this is the crux of the case for kashmiri separatism from a non-legalist perspective. I know you’ve cited the compromised procedural aspects of accession to the Indian union as reasons to support independence. While it may be accurate, some of us don’t think diplomatic intrigue from the 1940s is compelling or sacred, and yet we recognise the potential nationhood of kashmir in a way that transcends whims of great men.(even if we are indifferent to actual outcomes)

          1. Ethnicity and nationality are two different things. If Punjabis, Sindhis etc are “nations”, we are opening Pakistan up to secessionist claims. This is not acceptable.

            The US has 50 states, yet it is one nation. There is no contradiction between Pakistan having four provinces–each of which is dominated by one ethnic group– and being one nation. The only passport anyone carries is Pakistani.

            Kashmir is a Disputed Territory and the Kashmiri people were promised a plebiscite by India’s founding father and greatest leader. The provinces of Pakistan are unequivocally Pakistani territory.

  9. No need to fret about culture wars. I also don’t frankly know where do u get all this “Pakistan is winning the culture war”.

    After the fall of ISIS, the recent events of the world In the last few years have revolved mostly around white nationalism, hindu nationalism and ethnic nationalism. That’s y this momentary perception change. But the older devil will raise its head again and we will sooner be back to the pre trump debates with Islam and all. And then we all know what happens to “Pakistan is winning the culture war”.

  10. Like brown folks are the most welcoming of African folks. Short answer they aren’t.

  11. It’s weird to see Twitter activists ‘take up’ causes that serve as a stick to beat your opponents with, which they probably don’t really care about IRL – for eg. CCP affiliates showing supporting the anti-establishment US riots but ignoring the HK riots, which is the exact mirror image of what the RW US commenters are doing. Some of the anti-china folk have even taken up the Indian side in the border stand-off, while the usual anti-India actors are gleefully cheering on the Chinese. The world is full of sticks for those who look hard enough. What stands out is the neutrality of tone adopted by Indian state actors (leaders, official spokespersons,etc.), when compared to the strident tones taken by their CCP/US/Pakistani/Nepali etc. colleagues. It seems that India has internalised all the holier-than-thou criticism that has come its way and has been browbeaten to appear a certain way in a world that rapidly looks like no one gives a flying f*** about the other and everyone’s acting in their own ideological and material self-interest. The Indian state would be wise to take a leaf out of Kautilya’s book, grow some swagger and seek some unholy allies in this Kalyug that we’re all in.

    I’ve also revised my standing on the India-China standoff, it seems less an incursion or attempt to change the status quo and more a demonstration of intent from the CCP, which the Indians are wise to not blink to. And looking at the diversity of opinion from all quarters on this, I also realise that even most ‘experts’ are basically talking out their arse and grinding their own ideological axes

    1. “Some of the anti-china folk have even taken up the Indian side in the border stand-off, while the usual anti-India actors are gleefully cheering on the Chinese. ”

      To me the most funniest aspect is bunch of goras (and their brown underlings) now having thrown their lot on either side of the current Ladakh standoff. Guys (mostly) being more concerned than Indian public themselves

      They think that any military defeat will somehow be Modi’s end. LOL.

      1. It’ll definitely dent his strongman image, though
        I doubt China will push for an overt humiliation, as it’s already fighting a PR war over HK. It’s also quite telling that the west cares more about HK’s freedoms than the 100’s of K’s of Uyghurs who have been thrown into ‘re-education’ camps

        1. Politics is matter of choices provided, not of absolute.

          Modi’s image is contrasted with a opposition which is (rightly or wrongly) seen in bed with the enemy. I mean folks would laugh off Congress party if it tried to outdo Modi on nationalism. I mean think of it the Communist leaders, supporting Congress (of 1962 fame) to be more tough on China (their mother ship) . Folks see thru that.

          That’s the reason within India , even Modi’s abysmal performance against Pakistan in Balakot is seen as infinitely better, since the only contrast people really have is 2008 Mumbai attacks (and Congress’s performance post that) .

          I would venture a guess that Modi might actually like a standoff and a small skirmish along the border with China, which (despite) the results will produce even a bigger “rally around the flag” effect than the current Covid crisis. Also unlike Pakistan, India is the underdog here and in India, everyone thinks they are the underdog.

        2. What can we even do? Everyone in the world knows that China is magnitudes stronger than India on all fronts. If you lose a battle that everyone expects you to lose, then it might not dent his image that much.

          1. Following this thread, its quite illuminating how people project their own frailties (moral and spinal) on to a nation.

            https://twitter.com/IMRaj1984

            Watch the third post in his timeline, a video posted 13 hours ago. A Chinese soldier who has been pulled out of his patrol vehicle and being pulped. Indian soldiers give as good as they get and the LAC is where China loses face on a daily basis – the humiliation of being shown up as an impotent pretender.

    2. Do you think India should be vocal like Pakistan?

      I kind of prefer the getting things done behind the scenes and not talking all that much approach (assuming they are in fact getting things behind the scenes, which they may not be).

      Things like tweets from Imran Khan have just lost their meaning and effectiveness. At least on me.

      I would say it’s more quiet confidence or just focusing on getting the job done rather than internalizing a browbeating into submission.

      1. India should get its house in order. Strong economic development will take care of lot of the these issues over time. Also stop the overt focus on cultural war within country. Ignore the small percentage of lunatics that wont agree and take along / engage the majority to build the capabilities.

        And personally I think engaging in oppression olympics will eventually backfire. Because people will turn around and put the same questions to you. That is also true for our very vocal neighbor. With real power behind you people sit up and take notice. Otherwise one has to keep on resorting to rogue actors, asymmetric warfare and constant loud complaining which questionable results.

      2. Also liberals/leftist who want to see Modi regime fall, might actually end up having the worst of both worlds.

        India might lose this skrimish which will permanently affect Indian army, which still is one of the few liberal/secular/diversified Institution left (outside of Kashmir/North East) and they wouldn’t want that after how all other institutions (courts,media) have come under the current Govt;s thumb (liberal perception) . And it could all happen while simultaneously boosting Modi’s popularity and moral legitimacy vis-v the army.

        That;s the reason u can find lot of ex army men/diplomats/analyst who are bitter critic of Modi’s regime being somewhat defensive on criticizing the Govt current passiveness and dont want 2 egg him on lest it becomes a military failure.

        Damage to a regime is temporary, to an institution is (somewhat) permanent.

  12. Where exactly can we post reviews of the podcast? Couldn’t find it on Spotify. I’m new to the app

  13. So this comment didn’t make it through in the other thread so I waited a while for the next open thread to post it.

    In the ancient DNA and China insito podcast episode, Razib and Spencer were at one point talking about EDAR, and EDAR in SHG which seems to be an anomaly. I have an answer in mind for this. In the Dzudzuana preprint, EHG were modeled as having a little big of the neosiberian Baikal ancestry (like 5% Baikal or 3% east Asian equivalent), a recent kind of ENA not found in ANE. The SHG is a mix of EHG and WHG, so I think that the EDAR derived variant being passed from Neosiberians -> EHG -> SHG is a possible route based on the information available as of now.

    At one point I think Razib also mentioned EDAR in native Americans as a sign of the derived variant possibly being a very old thing, going back to the split between east Asians and east Asian ancestors of native Americans. The thing is though, the native Americans have received additional, more recent east Asian input after the first colonization from the Bering migration. To elaborate on this I will bring into consideration dental traits like Sinodonty. I know that there is no solid link between derived EDAR and Sinodonty but it does seem to have been spread by some same recent core population of east Asians. The early native American known as the Kennewick man had Sundadontic teeth, not Sinodontic ones, meanwhile modern native Americans have Sinodonty. This is because of some recent mixture which brought enough individuals to have lead to Sinodonty being selected in the native American population. Modern native Americans are still largely similar to Kennewick man, so I am not talking about a big turnover, but the more recent input must have been enough to at least start and complete the selection of a newly introduced trait not found in the first native Americans. To extend this to EDAR- I haven’t heard of either Kennewick man or any other early Holocene native American having the derived (east Asian) variant of EDAR, so I suspect that the presence of both EDAR and Sinodonty in native Americans comes from a more recent migration and that these were not brought from the old east Asian/non-ANE ancestors of the native Americans.

    And to corroborate the second part of the post- northern native Americans show more recently arrived haplogroups like C2 and even N in the far north as a sign of more recent interactions (which IMO brought Sinodonty and derived EDAR to Americas). The original Americans were almost entiely Q which is reflected in the southern native Americans who almost lack C2 and completely lack N.

  14. Would love thoughts from commentators on the Sikh facility with PR. They are very good at making sure that every act of charity or help for the broader community is publicized with photos and all. Whether it is cleaning the Jama Masjid (never showed up at the thousands of temples that could have used help) or running after trains of migrants with packets of food, or doing similar acts in the US/West. They get all the goodwill/PR for the good aspects, none of the flak for their regressive actions..They are astute political players in India, needling Hindus while taking visible pro-Muslim positions, but still being fought over by both sides..

    Similarly Muslims/Pakis are amazing at the PR game. Imagine, OBL in Abbottabad, backstabbing the West in Afghanistan, Khalid Sheikh, Omar Sheikh/Daniel Pearl, dozens of terrorist incidents all over the world with Paki links and yet they successfully claim victim status/liberal credentials etc…As someone said, they can totally show Mohammed’s Mecca face in the West (conciliatory) and play the Medina role in their own countries, and the woke crowd laps it all up.

    Indians / Hindus seem to suck at the game. Having no taqqiya like training / concept in the culture doesn’t help..The amount of Hinduphobia/Dharmicphobia on the web/twitter is astounding yet there is no response from Indians/Indian origin people..

    I do think that Modi/Jaishankar have totally screwed up PR both in India and abroad, and lost us a lot of goodwill. Congress for all it’s faults would have done the messaging much better. Imagine CAA which is really to help Hindu/Sikh people of Pakia/Afghania etc who are being oppressed/marginalized., getting the rep it has in the west…How could one screw such a thing up?

    1. “Paki” is a racial slur. The word is “Pakistani”. Thanks very much.

      Also, anyone who uses the term “Hinduphobia” is not worth taking seriously.

        1. Anyone can create a Wikipedia article about anything.

          You people complain about the term “Islamophobia” but “Hinduphobia” is even more of a joke. There was a “Muslim ban” in the US. No one has imposed a “Hindu ban”. Women in hijabs get attacked. The same doesn’t happen to women who look Hindu.

          1. There was a no Muslim ban. Once again, a case people using whatever political term they like just to push their own propaganda.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769

            “Section 3 of the order blocks entry of people from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen”

            Banning entry from 7 countries is a Muslim ban? Just to jog your memory, there are over 45+ Muslim majority countries. A Muslim ban would be banning the complete entry of all Muslims, which Trump actually did propose during his initial campaign, but never happened.

            Also a reminder that the 7 countries put together account for less than 12% of the world’s total Muslim population.

            Please do explain to me how a selective ban of 7 countries can be generalized as a “Muslim ban” when most Muslims were actually allowed into the US.

            Your entire argument against Hinduphobia is basically “you think you’re depressed? Kids in Africa are starving, so stop crying, you aren’t suffering as much as them therefore you can’t possibly be depressed”

            Also, can I call the ban on Israel by several Islamic countries as a ‘Jewish ban’? Because 30% (which is more than 12%) of Jews live in Israel. And Israel is also the ONLY Jewish-majority state.

          2. Those who think “Islamophobia” is fake shouldn’t turn around and cry “Hinduphobia”.

            Don’t get me started on the Zionist Settler-colonial entity.

          3. Reversing your argument, those who feel Islamophobia is real should not be so dismissive of hinduphobia. Whether or not particular instance qualifies as such or not is a different topic

            You just said discount the whole person and ignore his statement of he utters hinduphobia.

            You could have just say we have exclusive rights over crying oppression others don’t.

    2. “Would love thoughts from commentators on the Sikh facility with PR….get all the goodwill/PR for the good aspects, none of the flak for their regressive actions”

      I’m speculating here but the reasons for this may lie in the nature of migration of Sikhs to the Anglosphere (starting with the UK). Firstly, the British upper-class does feel guilty because of splitting Punjab up, especially since Sikhs suffered the worst in terms of land lost, this is after helping out the empire militarily in WW1 and WW2.

      The Sikhs who migrated to the UK in the ’60s and ’70s got along well with the working classes and tend to be magnanimous in day-to-day aspects of life. By comparison, many of the Hindus who ended up there via Uganda were from the Gujarati business community, back then they had a reputation for being hard-nosed on money matters (perhaps things have changed now, I don’t know). So compared to the Hindu community in Britain (whose attributes was extrapolated to the rest of Hindus in India), the Sikhs seemed relatively more easy-going. Perhaps this rubbed off on the other English-speaking countries via media and word of mouth.

      “Similarly Muslims/Pakis are amazing at the PR game…and the woke crowd laps it all up.”

      I think you attribute public behaviour to private opinions, many of the leftists who don’t speak about it in the open do have dinner table conversations on it. Pakistanis have suffered on this when it comes to things like the scrutiny they undergo from visa regimes.

      There is the added factor of financial support from similarly placed religious regimes in the middle east who are not short of money. More resources would inevitably lead to better PR.

      “Indians / Hindus seem to suck at the game…”

      Opinions of India are significantly better now compared to the 1980s, which was when the country was at its widest distance compared to the West in terms of per capita income/development and hadn’t opened up to the world yet. The literacy rate was less than 50% and caste issues were much bigger than they are now. For the Indian elite who went to study in Western universities then (20s/30s in the ’80s would mean 50s/60s now), the West really was better in economic and social aspects and more fulfilling in terms of a successful career.

      The best way to connect with their fellow students would have been to agree on India’s backwardness and to take up the responsibility to remake the country in their own image. This eventually grew into the class that explains India to the west in public fora. Many of these people are in positions of power now, it’s not that they mean particular harm to India, just that they want their own version of the country, and saying that a different version is possible would affect their standing negatively in their international social circle of friends.

      Another point to note is that many of these families who are progressive in a bookish sense, wouldn’t really extend this progressivism to their own households, where they would allow/not allow people to sit on the sofa based on their perceived class, and change their tone of address accordingly. They would be snobbish when it comes to class markers like accents and leisure interests (and more subtly the dreaded Steppe:AASI thing), be relatively nepotistic in promoting those similar to themselves, and treat those outside their horizon of vision suspiciously. I suppose this behaviour effectively sums up the Lutyens class.

      “I do think that Modi/Jaishankar have totally screwed up PR both in India and abroad…”

      Jaishankar is among the best diplomats India has, there is more to him than meets the eye, if he can’t improve the country’s PR, it’s unlikely anyone else as Foreign Minister can. A lot of things happen in the background in foreign affairs that the public isn’t privy to. The effects may not be visible now but in 20 to 50 years’ time, when communications start getting declassified.

      The way CAA is perceived really depends on who you speak to, the globalist media already has their position set based on their own freedom of movement ideology (of course some countries are held to a higher standard than others). Again, if you speak to people individually you’ll get different opinions, it’s just that many things in the media sphere can’t be said these days without affecting one’s career, especially if one is a public figure.

      1. Ronen:
        [I’m speculating here but the reasons for this may lie in the nature of migration of Sikhs to the Anglosphere (starting with the UK). Firstly, the British upper-class does feel guilty because of splitting Punjab up, especially since Sikhs suffered the worst in terms of land lost, this is after helping out the empire militarily in WW1 and WW2.

        The Sikhs who migrated to the UK in the ’60s and ’70s got along well with the working classes and tend to be magnanimous in day-to-day aspects of life. By comparison, many of the Hindus who ended up there via Uganda were from the Gujarati business community, back then they had a reputation for being hard-nosed on money matters (perhaps things have changed now, I don’t know). So compared to the Hindu community in Britain (whose attributes was extrapolated to the rest of Hindus in India), the Sikhs seemed relatively more easy-going. Perhaps this rubbed off on the other English-speaking countries via media and word of mouth.]

        I think there is also an element of Sikh universalism – it is a more universal type religion (like the Abrahamic ones) despite its many ethnic trappings, that makes it easier for Abrahamics to relate to (and Abrahamics have a deep seated aversion, sometime even subconscious, to pagan religions).
        Sikhs in the diaspora have also decided to don the woke mantle so much that more religious/conservative Sikhs are complaining that the woke-Sikhs are diluting aspects of Sikh faith and practice to pretend to be Uber-woke.

        [I think you attribute public behaviour to private opinions, many of the leftists who don’t speak about it in the open do have dinner table conversations on it. Pakistanis have suffered on this when it comes to things like the scrutiny they undergo from visa regimes.

        There is the added factor of financial support from similarly placed religious regimes in the middle east who are not short of money. More resources would inevitably lead to better PR.]

        Yes and no. We see vocal woke / liberal support for Muslims to the extent that in the last 5 years even legit criticism of Islam/Islamism is now a risky proposition that would get you canceled in no time.

        [Opinions of India are significantly better now compared to the 1980s, which was when the country was at its widest distance compared to the West in terms of per capita income/development and hadn’t opened up to the world yet. The literacy rate was less than 50% and caste issues were much bigger than they are now. For the Indian elite who went to study in Western universities then (20s/30s in the ’80s would mean 50s/60s now), the West really was better in economic and social aspects and more fulfilling in terms of a successful career.]

        Yes and no..I don’t disagree but the last 4 years have been tough PR wise for India. Partly it is because of Modi’s actions (many of them much needed but not all) and partly it is because of the current American Zeitgeist which has made anything rightish unacceptable for a large section of the population/influencers and media (who are all left) in America. In other words, Western liberals are fighting their US/Trump battles not just in the US but also world over including India (beating India is a proxy for beating Trump or the right in the US). Muslims have deftly captured the woke bandwagon on the wind of Islamophobia – really leveraged and won the oppression olympics – which is why NYTimes has no qualms in running propoganda from army-stooge Taliban-Imran Khan of Pakistan.

        [Another point to note is that many of these families who are progressive in a bookish sense, wouldn’t really extend this progressivism to their own households, where they would allow/not allow people to sit on the sofa based on their perceived class, and change their tone of address accordingly. They would be snobbish when it comes to class markers like accents and leisure interests (and more subtly the dreaded Steppe:AASI thing), be relatively nepotistic in promoting those similar to themselves, and treat those outside their horizon of vision suspiciously. I suppose this behaviour effectively sums up the Lutyens class.]
        You totally got the Lutyens crowd right

        [Jaishankar is among the best diplomats India has, there is more to him than meets the eye, if he can’t improve the country’s PR, it’s unlikely anyone else as Foreign Minister can. A lot of things happen in the background in foreign affairs that the public isn’t privy to. The effects may not be visible now but in 20 to 50 years’ time, when communications start getting declassified.]

        Yes, a lot of things can and do happen in the background. But public opinion/PR is also hugely important and Jaishankar is too blunt (undiplomatic) to manage that. India could have done the carrot and the stick – the soft and the hard aspects. It seems nobody bothered to counter propoganda about 370 and CAA in the court of public opinion. These things matter and goodwill is lost or won on the basis of public perceptions, which eventually can and does impact policy.

        [The way CAA is perceived really depends on who you speak to, the globalist media already has their position set based on their own freedom of movement ideology (of course some countries are held to a higher standard than others). Again, if you speak to people individually you’ll get different opinions, it’s just that many things in the media sphere can’t be said these days without affecting one’s career, especially if one is a public figure.]

        Yes, agree but PR could have been managed much better.

  15. Man you all are ( or maybe seem like) very talented and well read individuals and sometimes i just think that i am a duffer among a bunch of nerds.

  16. Linguistic relationship of North Indian languages with Europe is known, relationship of Dravidian(Tamizh) with Korean peninsular language is being documented, cultural and lingual relationship of Bharata with South East Asia is very much known. This seems like people have been moving too much from and to Bharata. It’s just fascinating and we should be lucky to be having so much history and diversity resulting in one and only civilizational state of today, India. At times this diversity that has penetrated into Bharata threatened the Bharatiyata itself, nevertheless it survived. Although this diversity (Bharatiyata) faces so many challenges in the wake of this world predominantly dominated by nation states and exclusivist religions.

  17. Razib/ Omar – it seems my posts go into the moderation pile more frequently than those of others. Does using a single email address help? ( I enter a random one each time)
    Have one that has been stuck for a while.
    And thanks for creating and maintaining this blog!

  18. I’ve been having thoughts on the long-term effects of the lopsided gender ratio in India, and the tragedy of the commons of aborting too many daughters. Looking at the decadal change over the last few censuses, things have improved slightly but not significantly. It appears that 5% or so men from this generation (age 20-40 as of 2020) and the next (age 20-40 as of 2050) wouldn’t be able to find wives even if they desired to.

    Adjusting for the people of both sexes willingly not partnered (I assume the number would be similar among men and women) as well as individuals from the LGBT community, that would still leave a considerable surplus of unmarried men. If interviews are carried out today and 30 years later for involuntarily unmarried men, I wonder what the general characteristics of the surveyed males in question would be like.

    Since most marriages in India are still arranged and within caste/community, I assume that the men perceived as low-value by their tribe would be unable to find partners. This value will probably be determined by a complex mix of social (physical and emotional attractiveness, education, and family) and economic (wealth, jobs, business, land, residence) factors. The selection process in Indian arranged marriages is rather harsh in this respect, those not making the cut get quickly cast aside.

    Men from those castes/communities with higher social/economic capital can strike out and get partners from other regions and caste/religious groups, however, this option will not be available for many who at the bottom of the pile. Also, unlike mail order brides from East Europe and SE Asia who can get foreign husbands, these poor fellows are unlikely to have the physical/emotional attractiveness and/or the self-sufficiency + wealth that is necessary for men to be able to get a foreign wife, especially if they were in the bottom 5% of the local marriage pool. It’s a sad situation overall, and I feel sorry for the men who will end up in this unenviable position.

    1. “I’ve been having thoughts on the long-term effects of the lopsided gender ratio in India”

      What could be the reason for this?

      I’ve seen projections where the ratios are predicted to be skewed for almost all states (including Kerala) even late into the 21st century. In cases like Haryana or Punjab, it’s almost appalling.

      I’m wondering if foeticide, infanticide, and higher infant mortality due to neglect explain all of this or is there some biological factor in play. Like a genetic predisposition to produce more males and not enough time has passed for an equilibrium to set in.

      If a state has a gender ratio of 880:1000 it means more than 1 in 10 potential females has somehow been murdered. That’s horrific.

    2. “a genetic predisposition to produce more males”

      There is actually, but the global gender ratio for M:F at birth is approx. 105:100, according to studies caused by chromosomal abnormalities/ miscarriages. More on that here: https://ourworldindata.org/gender-ratio
      It’s under the question: Why are births naturally expected to be male-biased?

      The Indian ratio is far far out of whack.

      “What could be the reason for this?”

      Straight up abortion/selection, especially in cases where families have many daughters but want a son. So those with a firstborn son sometimes stop at one, but those with firstborn daughters keep trying until a son pops up, this messes up the ratio.

      In the very long-run, think 100 years, it might actually lead to higher quality men. Assuming women become more selective and choose only the best quality males available to them (both in terms of physical attractiveness and wealth), this would shave off 10% of the male pop. every generation.

      If let’s say 5% of men have Y chromosomal abnormalities, they will get sorted out of the marriage pool, esp. if the difference is physically visible. Some families these days even demand genetic testing for abnormalities and this number will only increase in the future. There may be positive selection for certain traits even without abnormalities. For example, assuming that taller men have an easier time finding partners will favour those genes on the Y chromosome that have a greater additive impact on height (my speculation, not sure if this is how it plays out).

      So overall the Indian males living in 2120 would be the result of 3 generations of selection where the lower 10% tail-end of men in the distribution get sorted out continuously. This is assuming that by then people don’t already have the ability to select genes for their children.

  19. i’m pretty skeptical of kabir. but after encountering other ‘postcolonial’ types i have to say this about how he’s different: he actually goes through the motions of talking to those he disagrees with.

    a lot of postcolonialism is just agreeing to some faith-based beliefs and insulating yourself from any criticism. it’s super weird, and cultic.

    1. @Razib,
      “a lot of postcolonialism is just agreeing to some faith-based beliefs and insulating yourself from any criticism. it’s super weird, and cultic.”

      As you can probably discern, the radical thinking of this cult is what is instigating violent riots right now.

  20. After today’s SpaceX launch can’t wait to see Indian astronauts on Indian space ships.
    Go ISRO!

    Can anyone comment on long term prospects for ISRO? SpaceX and Blue Origin have superior engines, better l economies of scales and much better technology (retro landing). Large Indian Rocket i.e. ULV is a decade or more into the future with untested engine based on Ukrainian designs. The Reusable Launch Vehicle is maybe a one off gimmick but SLV might actually beat smaller companies i.e. Astra, Rocketlab and Virgin LauncherOne.

    Really cool time to be alive. Especially in countries with space programs and aspirations.

    Finally, can someone please explain wtf are people going to do in space? I mean the inspiration/innovation part of the space exploration is going to be over pretty soon it seems. Space is orders of magnitude more hostile/costlier than Antarctica or even deep sea mining/exploration/industrialization. What am I missing?

    1. “Can anyone comment on long term prospects for ISRO?”

      Long-term prospects are good in terms of talent, but for technical successes, it would depend on how India’s industry develops. Space involves a complex myriad of industrial processes, some of them highly interconnected and others detached from each other. Let’s take a few of these industries:

      Cryonegics: India doing reasonably well here as it was forced to be self-sufficient due to export controls from other countries and sanctions. The fuel that puts a rocket up in space is given by Konstantin Tsiolkovsky’s equation, so bigger the rocket, more expensive the fuel. The limitation is mainly funding here.

      Metallurgy: Mediocre compared to the big players. An important part is to develop the materials required to survive said conditions. This is much harder than it looks and requires copious hours of experimentation and many, many patents and discoveries. Minute things like the melting point of a tiny composite substance, its malleability and ability to withstand pressure can make a life or death difference (look at Columbia). The industry in the background supporting these space ventures would have workers numbering at least in the 10s of thousands, and it won’t be visible if one looks just at ISRO.

      Electronics: India is way behind here. The US, parts of Europe and East Asia lead the pack, and countries in these regions have their own space programs. For example, the setup required to build up a semiconductor factory is insanely expensive, and many foreign companies won’t risk setting it up in India because high risk of instability + politics (in the form of retroactive laws) + regular and constant source of resources (power + water + skilled labour) + supply chains for exporting said finished goods. India does have many good electronic engineers, just that most of them don’t work in the country, and aren’t in a position to come back because of lower salaries and the need to support their families. Thus, a lot of India’s electronics is imported from outside.

      Supply chains: In this area, India again has much distance to cover, the lack of good infrastructure make it more expensive to carry around goods required for the final product, not a big deal for companies run by the central government, but definitely an issue for smaller innovative companies who are strapped for cash but have good talent and potential.

      “Finally, can someone please explain wtf are people going to do in space?”

      Not very different from Age of Discovery, access to resources primarily (look up peak minerals), in the *very* long term, maybe settlement. Also a good amount of showing off, I’m not particularly opposed to this, provided the tech benefits pay off in the long run.

      “Space is orders of magnitude more hostile/costlier than Antarctica or even deep-sea mining/exploration/industrialization. What am I missing?”

      It’s a matter of relative technological development, in 1000AD a sailor living in Spain or Portugal wouldn’t risk going out into the Atlantic to see what’s on the other side, but by the late 15th century it became a viable option thanks to better ship design, materials and navigation prowess.

      As for space, humans (or at least America) can successfully put a robot on any planet. While moving around humans things become much more complicated due to biological health reasons – radiation, reduction in bone mass, long spans of time in travel can all become an issue. Personally, I think that there would need to be some enhancements of humans via gene therapy sometime in the future before long-distance space travel becomes viable.

      1. Between a rocket and a semiconductor forge, I will take the latter any day. But creeps and voyeurs over at America’s National Reconnaissance Office would disagree.

        GPS is very cool to have, so is the soon to be common satellite internet. But I never got the humans in space part, that’s pure mania. Living (and resource mining) at the bottom of the Mariana trench is easier. But then who knows reality is stranger than fiction in the Aerospace sector given how far humans (or just Americans, Russians and French) have come over the past century.

  21. LOL @PakIslamist liberal.
    I’d long decided that it is futile to engage you. So please carry on, but expect no response (until I change my mind, haha)

    1. I don’t need a response from a loser like you.

      “Islamist” is a slur and I’m going to demand an apology. You clearly have no idea what the word means. I have never advocated for Shariah law.

  22. I’m hoping that the Indian Commission on Racial and Religious freedom has taken note of the racist killings of black people and the rioting that has ensued. They need to issue a report and place Minnesota in the list of states of particular concern.

  23. Lookup The Calcutta Quran Petitions.
    Funny how the petitioner tried to use the draconian blasphemy laws and hate speech laws in India to get Quran banned. Apparently the petitioner had first hand experience of violence in Bangladesh Liberation war.

    In my opinion, hate speech laws and blasphemy laws are an indication of a backward society.

  24. “These changes are an erasure of Kashmir’s history as a princely state, governed separately from the rest of India, and a project in creating homogeneity – so that there is no legal difference between a Kashmiri and someone from any part of India who has lived in Kashmir for a specified period.

    Kashmiris were once state-subjects of a princely state. We were then made permanent residents of an autonomous state within the Indian Union. Today we are being made ‘domiciles’ of a Union territory, that too, without our consent. Extrapolating from the developments taking place, it is not hard to imagine the Kashmiri landscape seeded with predatory militarised settlements similar to Palestine. The implications can only be calamitous.

    The threat of demographic change, loss of livelihood and increased competition for scarce resources is bound to electrify an already incensed population. In any sensible democracy, this situation would be alarming but authoritarian and xenophobic actions seen over the last year suggest that Modi’s government is neither sensible nor democratic.”
    https://thewire.in/rights/kashmir-domicile-law

    1. Quote /“These changes are an erasure of Kashmir’s history as a princely state, governed separately from the rest of India”/

      Thats the very purpose of abolition of art. 370. There were many princely states in both India and Pakistan. Now their subjects are citizen of india or pak.

      Home minister has already said on floor of house that the treaty of accession with kashmir was word to word same as with any other princely states.
      https://thewire.in/history/public-first-time-jammu-kashmirs-instrument-accession-india

      The union territory is temporary arrangement and is expected to be converted to state like other language based state in India. There is no question of homogeneity since like other states Kashmiri language will still be used and promoted. In fact creating homogeneity is seen in Pakistan where urdu and punjabi people have made heavy alterations in their part of kashmir.

      Quote /The threat of demographic change, loss of livelihood and increased competition for scarce resources../
      This is equivalent to earlier post by Razib where he showed how far fetched it is for muslim to overwhelm India demographicly. Similarly very small population would become domicile citizen of kashmir at end of very long period. There is no intention to alter any demographics other than in minds of people trying to somehow equate this to Palestine to appeal to their target group in west.
      In fact the situation is still not in 100% parity since all kashmiris can own property in India but the reverse is not true. Giving a handful of people this right is way to signal their will be more parity in this regard henceforth. But just like in northeastern hill states however looking at concerns of local population similar protection of domicile has been extended to kashmir.

      Lastly as testament to hypocrisy of left at play –
      The exact same argument of competition for finite resources is made in Assam and WB about migrants /refugees from Bangladesh after 71 war. There left has exact opposite position as here. And the number of outsiders in WB/Assam are much higher than what could theoretically happen in future in kashmir.

      As always all talk no substance !

      1. The author of this article is a Kashmiri Muslim and a lawyer. Pretty sure he knows more than you about this topic (unless of course you are also trained in International Law?)

        Kashmir is NOT just another Princely state. It is DISPUTED TERRITORY (Kashmiri Muslims would say OCCUPIED TERRITORY). Settling Indians on Kashmiri territory is like settling Israeli Jews in Palestine. Not acceptable.

        1. The author of the article says (on Facebook):

          “Apart from the parallels with Israel there are two important things I have argued in this piece-

          1. The children of Indians, who have never lived in Kashmir, can be made domiciles but the children of diaspora Kashmiris who may not have a PRC can not be domiciles now unless they live in Kashmir for 15 years or meet the other criteria.

          2. If a Kashmiri resident fails to meet the new criteria, he/she will be forced to leave Kashmir because domicile is now linked to admission in education, employment and purchase of land. Moreover, people who are already permanent residents are now being asked to re-verify their residence/domicile. This is a mini-NRC/CAA exercise for Kashmir.”

          1. I don’t think either of us are experts in all subjects we talk here.
            So don’t throw are you student of law at me? If that were the criteria most of the comments here would be invalid. Same with ethnicity of author or commentors. My comment is based on things I read just like yours.

            Also I quoted article from same source as you did and not any hindu rw website. So very woke as you prefer ! Staying within indian constitution they have a valid reasoning for their maneuvers.

            Things change when we look in international context. Whatever indian parliament decides other parties are not going to agree to it. Example is seen in Ladakh with China at the moment. Similar is the whole case of CPEC passing through disputed territory. India has objected using its right. Nothing changed on ground. Similarly status of territory within its control has been changed within the confines of Indian constitution. Other parties can say we don’t accept it. The equating of kashmir and Palestine is Pak pet project under international relations. They have had ‘tremendous success’ at it even in islamic forums forget the wider community. So I will not divert the topic in that direction.

            The lines you quoted imply lack of democracy and sensibility in the act which is not the case when seen in indian context.

            /The children of Indians, who have never lived in Kashmir, can be made domiciles../
            That clearly is for kashmiri pandits whose story I dont have to repeat.

            Also the author on International law forget to mention a very important change. That of kashmiri women being thrown out of inheritance for marrying non kashmiri earlier are now treated equally. Had this been other way round the woke would have denounced the patriarchy of hindutva modi

          2. Since you are neither a lawyer nor a Kashmiri Muslim, you know less about this topic then Mirza Saeb Beg. Therefore whatever you have to say is invalid. Take up your objections with him.

            I actually am an ethnically Kashmiri Muslim. And it is Kashmiri Muslims who have equated Kashmir with Palestine. It’s not a “Pak charge”.

          3. Your earlier quip of I dont want to discuss it further was more elegant than this reply. Going by these statements, I think you wont discuss these topics here further since most of us are not kashmiri muslims (you forgot pandits but whatever)

            Also its irritating others as Ronen said and I agree.

            I will make this my last comment on this topic.

  25. “Those who think “Islamophobia” is fake shouldn’t turn around and cry “Hinduphobia”.”

    And when did I say Islamophobia is fake?

    My only point was that Hinduphobia is real (since you’re trying so hard to disprove that it isn’t even a proper term).

    Good to know that you couldn’t refute any of what I said.

    Your double standards and hypocrisy is blaring.

    1. You haven’t been on BP long enough to know that the Hindu Right consensus here is that Islamophobia is not real. It is then a double standard for the same people to cry “Hinduphobia” or “Dharmicphobia”.

      But if you concede the reality of Islamophobia, then this doesn’t apply to you.

  26. Razib, is it viable to make a separate open thread in this blog for India/Pakistan and Hindu/Muslim stuff every month or so?

    Over the last few weeks the open thread is always clogged with this to and fro between both parties, and it drowns out the comments on other topics that are actually worth noting. Just on last week’s open thread there were over 300 comments and around half of them are just trench fighting between two sides that already have views set in stone.

    You can even name the thread the ‘monthly fight club’ in honour of Tyler Durden. Disagreements on the above topics can be dished out there for anyone who needs to let out steam. Anytime an argument breaks out on another post, the parties involved can be asked to take it over to the most recent fight club thread. It might lead to higher quality weekly open threads in the long run.

  27. On indo pak, I don’t even understand y do we keep talking about them tbh. Don’t get me wrong, but I feel no new insights are being provided. It would be interesting if it would have been the case.

    This is when perhaps hardly anything significant has happened b/w those 2 countries after feb 2019. Perhaps the biggest lull in relationship as far as I can remember.

    1. We keep talking about it because the Hindutvadis here keep bringing up my country or my religion.

      If you all don’t do that, I’m happy to leave you all to talk about whatever you want–even if it is something truly pathetic like penis size. Really great intellectuals you all are!

      1. “We keep talking about it because the Hindutvadis here keep bringing up my country or my religion.”

        kabir, the word is “Hindutva-vadi”. I know it is something of a tongue twister, but being pedantic will help you here. (and also shield you from constant barbs from razib).

        or even better, you can just use hindu nationalists, or RW hindus to convey your point.

        1. @thewarlock

          I don’t like talking to him but I enjoy his outbursts. So I have been helping him out. Forgot about replying to same question you posted on the previous thread.

          1. What? And here i was thinking we have some Muslims lurking who like his comments. That would have added more diversity to the comments section.

          2. Even I wish we had a few more sensible ones here. But think of it, if they liked such ‘problematic’ comments they wouldn’t have been worth talking to anyway. For that, there is always Pakdefense.

          3. You are not going to get Muslims–“sensible” or otherwise– on a site where the Prophet of God (pbuh) is routinely called a “pedophile”.

            And there is a comment from you in the trash which is extremely nasty and anti-Pakistan. You are a bigot plain and simple. Don’t try to pretend otherwise.

  28. The Chinese have upped the propaganda war by releasing the pictures of POWs of 1962 war. They claim that the Indian side let the video of fist fighting out in the recent brawls. Indian Army rejects the claims. I think whatever the truth is both countries have handled the dignity of a soldier pretty poorly. Firstly, India by letting a rogue soldier release the video though they claim it was not authorized. Secondly, the Chinese went ahead a step further by releasing pictures of captured POW pictures from 1962, that goes against all the known military conventions. I think this will escalate and China will be seen as a bully in South, East and SE Asia. This will be a PR nightmare for PRC.

    1. It will eventually die down. PR victories are not real victories. Eventually what remains is de jure stuff. Hong Kong laws are here to stay. Islands made by China are. And that’s what China is attempting with on the border with India. Let see how it pans out.

  29. I think you’re right. I always had a feeling that HongKong will become China sooner or later. Tough days ahead for India, it’s hard to tackle Pakistan, China, Nepal at once. With rising Hindu self determination movements we will soon make at least a neutral Bangladesh if not an enemy. Sri Lanka is already a lost cause. USA, UK, Australia are very selfish nations without a proper conscience and it’s not realistic to expect any help from them.

    1. Getting 2 concerned about others. The only relevant power is China/Pakistan. Yes others might not be on the best terms, but even in worst of times, the other countries never really did anything overtly determinantal to India on China’s bidding. Just like India doesn’t do anything to China, on US prodding. India over the years has unnecessarily prodded and poked them , which are frankly coming home 2 roost.

  30. Jatt_Scythian said this on the previous thread-

    “TBH South Indians actually have facial shape and structure resembling Europeans more often. With NW Indians/Pakistanis its usually a resemblance to Iranians or Afghans”

    I don’t understand. Can someone please explain?

  31. https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/mark-zuckerberg-might-be-mostly-right-about-twitter-11590932004782.html

    “Our age is a highly democratic one, and the evidence is in a maligned phenomenon called “polarization”. As this column has argued, the defamation of polarization is the parting curse delivered by those who have lost control over the transmission of ideas. The way we have turned out, we now marvel at a time when religious patriots and asparagus-eaters, the Republicans and Democrats, used to read the same newspapers and watch the same news channels. One day, we will marvel at the fact that they used to rant on the same social media sites.”

  32. (Google translate) DZEVAD GALIJAŠEVIĆ WARNS: Tens of thousands of Taliban entered BiH with fake visas, behind everything are services from Pakistan.

    The investigation established that a far larger number of fake BiH visas were issued to people with a high migration risk from the Middle East, that is, that tens of thousands of Taliban entered Bosnia in that way, says political analyst and security expert Dzevad Galijasevic.

    “There are currently at least 12,000 people in Bosnia from Afghanistan and several thousand from Iraq, who entered the country thanks to fake tourist visas. It turned out that in a similar way, thanks to Muslim employees in BiH embassies, citizens of Morocco and Algeria arrived in Bosnia.” , says Galijašević.

    1. Milan Todrovic:
      Not sure about this particular report, but our Paki neighbors are quite enterprising so it wouldn’t be beyond them at all. Already, there are many reports of tens of thousands of Pakis that have migrated to Europe claiming to be refugees from Afghanistan 🙂 I’m sure sprinkled among those economic migrants are some ISI/Taliban/Militant workers (these are all related entities). Congrats – why should India alone benefit from their skills? 🙂

      1. It has been pointed out to you already that “Paki” is a racial slur. It’s surely not that hard to type four extra letters and use the proper term: PAKISTANI.

        This is deliberate bigotry.

    2. Here comes the Serbian nationalist with some more Islamophobic and anti-Pakistan crap.

      Honestly the best way for you people to get me to stop commenting here is just to never mention Islam or Pakistan. If you attack my country or my religion, I will of course defend them.

  33. I am a Serbian nationalist, but unfortunately this is not a crap. I have nothing against Pakistan especially because its name is a half Serbian and millions of people over there have Aryan Serbian genes. Pakistan was very active in Bosnia during the 90ies civil war where thousands of islam militants came. It was a general rehersal for ISIL state. Bosnian muslim ambassador in Pakistan (Serbs and Croats from Bosnia also have ambassadors in chosen countries) issued enormous number of fake travel visas to islamic fighters without the knowledge of Bosnian Presidency (consists of a Muslim, Serb and a Croat member).

    It is a longer story about situation in Bosnia (I may write about this when I have more time). In a nutshell, Muslims are not happy to have a half of Bosnia (the other half is Serbian Republic) with central Presidency. They want the whole Bosnia for themselves and they plan to continue with a jihad-genocide against Serbs which started during the Turkish rule and continued during the ww1, ww2 and 90ies. Since the end of the civil war they kept preparation for new war and have been waiting for positive international situation for them to continue where they stopped.

    Re – islam. I wrote before few times. Many worldwide muslim thinkers think that the orthodox Christianity is the closest i.e. not an enemy to islam and muslims. Orthodox Christianity is not a hate faith. For me, regarding only one thing, (not mentioning this time sharia, jihad, kill infidels, 77 virgins) – taqiyya, which I haven’t seen any muslim to denounce it, my opinion is that without such denouncement, those cannot be considered as civilised people and they are not worth any discussion, simply because it would not have any sense.

    1. Sure, let’s blame Bosnians when it was Serbian nationalists who committed ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. This rhetoric is disgusting.

      “these cannot be considered civilized people”– This is blatant Islamophobia. Perhaps English is not your first language so you don’t realize how bigoted you sound.

      1. Your long comment is in moderation but I only have two words for you: Srebrenica massacre.

        “In 2004, in a unanimous ruling on the case of Prosecutor v. Krstić, the Appeals Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY), located in The Hague, ruled that the massacre of the enclave’s male inhabitants constituted genocide, a crime under international law.[21] The ruling was also upheld by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in 2007.[22] The forcible transfer and abuse, of between 25,000 and 30,000 Bosniak women, children and elderly which accompanied the massacre was found to constitute genocide, when accompanied with the killings and separation of the men.[23][24]”
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

        Not interested in further discussion with someone who is blatantly denying that ethnic cleansing happened when the entire world knows what Serbs did to Bosnian Muslims.

        1. For those who are interested, there is a bit longer explanation.

          Hague tribunal was a kangaroo court organized by CIA and MI6 and financed by S.Arabia. This is a part of western propaganda and a tool in their geopolitical combinations. Couple months ago, MI6 released documents, of course without much noise, that all previous about Srebrenica I Bosnia was fabricated. Srebrenica was a village where mostly muslims lived and it should be an unarmed, civilian zone under western protection. However, muslims were very well armed and used western protection for 3 years to provocate and attack surrounding Serbian villages, kill people and escape back under western protection. Military weaker, muslims were pushing Bill Clinton to intervene and bomb Serbs. Clinton could not do this without strong reason. His deal, it is well known (wag the dog, Monica L.), with Muslim president was that muslims sacrifice Srebrenica and after that announce that was a genocide what would give him justification in front of domestic public opinion.

          Serbs conquered this village in agreement with Dutch military unit which protected muslims. That was the only muslims place deep into Serbian territory, created to irritate Serbs. After the battle, all women and children from the village were transported safely by muslim buses and Dutch protection to the nearest muslim town. Many muslim soldiers (supposedly innocent civilians) got killed in the battle. There were also some retaliations against captured muslims by local Serbs whose families were killed by muslims in previous years. Muslims killed more than 5000 Serbian women and children in Srebrenica area. Several hundred muslim fighters were killed but propaganda increases this number every year. Muslims buried their fighters in Srebrenica, but they also brought corpses of killed muslims from remote Bosnian places in previous years to present them as fresh Srebrenica victims and to make this number higher.

          There is now an independent commission, led by Israeli holocaust historian which should find out the exact number of victims on both sides. Muslim politicians strongly fight to stop their work because they will uncover that the number of killed muslim is one tenth of the number used in propaganda. It is interesting that French secret service independently used some Croats and Slovenians to kill muslims in Srebrenica to make this number higher and to blame Serbs for this. One Croat, Drazen Erdemovic, in Hague confessed that he killed more than a hundred muslims. He has got one year sentence and with a high French pension he has been living for almost 20 years in Sweden.

          1. Ah yes, the International Court of Justice is lying and the poor Serbs were the victims.

            It’s the 21st century. All decent people should be deploring ethnic cleansing in the strongest terms, not denying that it happened.

            It seems Serbian nationalists are not different from Hindutvadis at all. It is always the Muslim’s fault and the world is against you guys. Disgusting disgusting people.

          2. This is not International Court of Justice, this is a temporary MI6 outfit financed by S.Arabian vehabists. I presented examples of ethnic cleansing of about a million of Serbs in Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo. Where are the ethnic cleansings of others? During the 90ies civil wars not one muslim, Croat or Albanian was expelled from Serbia. It was the opposite. Some of these nationalities who escaped from their war zones in Bosnia, first escaped to Serbia before continuing to western countries.

            It is unbelievable that someone whose ethical norm is taqiyya (what means – lie, lie and only lies) says for something that is disgusting. I can even understand (not approve) the ‘jihad’ (US also conduct their way of jihad or crusades) but the ’taqiyya’ is something the lowest and under any civilizational level. And for him is normal that a muslim country sends ISIL fighters to Europe to conduct terrorists’ acts. This is possible only in a very primitive framework. It is not strange that Albanians and Bosnian muslims are the dumbest and the most primitive, uncivilized groups in Europe. Bosnian muslims are 100% ethnically Serbs, with the same language, genes, preislam history (they invented the name ‘Bosniacs’ 25 years ago). There is only one difference which made them what I’ve just mentioned. This difference is related to their conversion when one half of their brain was removed and supplanted by taqiyya (=always lie, never say the truth).

      1. India has possibly permanently just lost land where China has crossed and setup camp. They will keep encroaching.

        1. Yes but what can India realistically do? Militarily India is no match. It would be thoroughly devastating. And no point in appealing to the international community because India has no goodwill there anymore.

          1. That is too pessimistic I think. India still has plenty of goodwill atleast vis a vis china. But even before that india can give a bloody nose to them in this fight. Complete parity in not required for that.

            And as someone already wrote, use diplomacy on the numerous pressure points. All is definitely not lost.

    1. Nah, it’s just a case of Chinese poking and prodding, they haven’t managed to bite anything off but have delivered a strong message nonetheless to those in the Indian establishment who care to listen.

      https://theprint.in/opinion/no-chinese-occupation-geolocated-images-show-fast-in-and-out-intrusions/433209/

      Fortunately I’ve noticed a gradual realisation in the defence establishment over the past few years that China is most definitely the enemy#1 rather then the western neighbour so such provocations will most likely be met with strong counter-measures going forward. Nevertheless the Chinese approach of covert and below the belt pokes is revealing. There is no honour among rogues, and make no mistake China is as rogue as they come. This will probably be the biggest geo-political realisation in the post-covid age, and I expect the hawks around the world will have taken note.

      There’s many pressure points that are open to be pushed, if India so chooses – Tibet, Taiwan, HK, the Uighurs, disaffection in Vietnam and Myanmar towards China, etc. But I doubt India has the requisite deviousness and diplomatic smarts

      1. China warned India that unilaterally changing the status of Ladakh would have consequences but India didn’t take them seriously.

      2. Fuck China! They will never be anything other than asshole enemies to us! Also fuck them for killing 100,000+ Americans.

      3. “Fortunately I’ve noticed a gradual realisation in the defence establishment over the past few years that China is most definitely the enemy#1”

        India’s defense/diplomatic establishment doesn’t count for much, despite they (and various US think-tanks) thinking the opposite. As soon as the crisis is defused, the situation will go back to lax LAC and more fortified LOC. Perhaps not exactly the same, but more or less.

        What counts is political establishment view, which most times overrules defense/diplomatic establishment misgivings. And in their view Pakistan is more “relevant” than China.

        BTW have we heard anything from the communist parties of India on the border skirmishes. Last i checked they still claimed to be national parties. I was told here that somehow Indian communist parties(and certain ethnicities) have nothing to do with the China 😛

      4. “There’s many pressure points that are open to be pushed, if India so chooses – Tibet, Taiwan, HK, the Uighurs, disaffection in Vietnam and Myanmar towards China, etc. But I doubt India has the requisite deviousness and diplomatic smarts”

        The opportunities are endless, but India seems to suck at foreign policy and diplomacy and military, especially under Modi.

        Even Pakistan has destroyed India in this respect. I remember India saying it was going to “isolate” Pakistan. Yet, increasingly, it seems India is the one isolated (from many countries in the OIC & left wing parties in the West, incl Labour, Democrats). And of course got rekt in the military skirmish.

        1. I think India’s foreign policy is anachronistic and not cut out for this age of deviousness and information warfare. We should be a little less defensive about acting in our self interest and cultivating opportunistic alliances.

          That being said, I was surprised the support that India got in the OIC. Maldives and the gulf states openly took India’s side, which goes to show that our diplomacy may not be all that shambolic after all. The internal power struggles in the Islamic world are ripe for being utilised

  34. Ethnic cleansing?? Tell me one example. It was a propaganda and even their creators do not use anymore because it is idiotic and some people are starting to ask the questions. Let me tell you some examples. Sarayevo is a capital of Bosnia. Before the war, there was 500 thousands of citizens, half muslims, half Serbs. Now, there are not Serbs at all, they were ethically cleansed or killed. Croatia – 600 thousands of Serbs were expelled i.e. about 95% of them. Only the oldest left there without any human rights.

    Kosovo – the cradle of Serbian state, during the Turkish rule even under unspeakable terror, Serbs were almost 100% population there. Albanians start coming 300 years ago. Twenty years ago, Albanian muslims burnt hundreds of 1000 years old churches and expelled almost all Serbs. The population of the capital Pristina was almost half-half, now there 5-6, 80+ old Serbian women. Albanians took for free all Serbian properties, houses, apartments, all companies, mining, all agricultural land in the whole Kosovo. There are now 5 -10% of Serbs, mostly very old, who live in enclaves like in conc-lagers, unpunishingly robbed, killed and terrorized on daily basis. In Kosovo which is 90 km in radius, Serbs had 2000 churches and monasteries. Albanians don’t have ONE cultural monument in Kosovo.

    “This is blatant Islamophobia” >>>>>>>>>> it means that Taqiyya is equal Islam?
    For me, it is not civilisation. Am I wrong? Do you denounce taqiyya or this is your ethic’s norm?

    “If you attack my country or my religion, I will of course defend them.”

    Really? What about you attacking other countries? Is this information about Islamic fighters sent by Pakistani secret services to Europe untrue? It seems you in advance know that it is untrue.

    Or, it is just another application of taqiyya?

    1. @iamMT

      It’s all taqqiya max approach. Its two step process really.

      step one- Teach the whole world high morals with fake liberal and secular credentials.

      step two- when under attack retreat back to the all powerful shield of islamophobia and come up with special watered down versions of above liberalism /secularism since now ‘khalifa’ wants to defend and cant be expected to follow the high morals he prescribes for rest of the world.

      Other than that the double standards are staggering. One cannot comment and be taken seriously if not Kashmiri muslim or student of law but some are qualified to comment on India china border when they are not indian, chinese or defense analyst. Other instances have been pointed even by Razib

      The more he has commented the less his credibility has got over time (since the time I am reading atleast) As it exposes the core thoughts. Since last 2 threads shit has hit the roof and I see some people ignoring him. Let see how it goes after some cooling time.

      1. You do realize you are taking the side of someone who blatantly denies that Serbs committed ethnic cleansing in Bosnia? The entire world knows that they did. In fact, the UN uses the term “genocide”.

        This person again and again uses blatantly Islamophobic language such as “Bosniaks lack half their brain since they became Muslim”.

        Nice allies you are picking.

        1. I have not endorsed anybody’s views but expessed mine.

          Neither I am picking up any allies. Now that I think about it thats wht you tried to do when you interjected in conversation on srilanka atleast in your mind.

          I have agreed on points made by you too, many times. Doesn’t mean I am picking up allies or condoning all things you said or did.

          1. Denying ethnic cleansing (or defending it) is a line that is not crossed by any decent person. Such people should be de-platformed.

            I have never defended or denied ethnic cleansing.

  35. Manish Tewari wrote an article on India’s fertility rate:
    https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-covid-19-proved-indias-demographics-are-unsustainable-time-we-brought-our-fertility-rate-down/353724

    Near the end he mentions: “We need to bring our total fertility rate further down from 2.1 to 1 or even lower.”

    What he left out in the article is that a few states in the North account for most of the population growth in the present day, many states on the peripheries (Punjab, WB, TN) are already below replacement with TFR at 1.6 or 1.7, and the population pyramids are in the process of transforming. He also doesn’t appear to understand how a super-low TFR can’t be brought back up with ease, a la South Korea and Taiwan.

    On a larger scale it’s disturbing to see so many politicians who’ve been on the national stage for 20+ years and are still unable to make simple data-based inferences. It is at least expected that they’d have specialist advisors around to brief them on these things. What makes the issue worse is that those from a law or political background train themselves to speak with authority and confidence, so the general public believe them even when their information is misleading or outright wrong.

    The legislature should pass some kind of law requiring new MPs and MLAs every Lok Sabha and Vidhan Sabha cycle to undergo a compulsory 1-month training on basic subjects related to governance, esp. on topics like macroeconomics, national indicators, supply chains, the effect of political decision-making on business, legal aspects and processes related to privatization, public finance, historical and redundant schedules, and so on. Stuff that they actually need to know while drafting new laws or changing old ones.

    A major problem is that the skill set needed for winning an election and running a party (esp. in caste based elections) doesn’t overlap with good policy knowledge, which require long hours of study and being an autodidact. When all their free time goes into campaigning and political intrigue there’s not much energy left for learning the nuts and bolts that make a country tick and evolve.

    1. “What he left out in the article is that a few states in the North account for most of the population growth in the present day”

      I think Manish Tewari is smart enough to know that TFR’s are naturally going down and do not need any specific new intervention. He’s bluffing.

      The re-found love of Congress for population control over the last year might have got mainly to do with the fact that the states still having high TFR have been quite pro-BJP and also because Modi might push ahead with constituency delimitation in 2026, something that has been punted for a while now.

      This will also help bolster INC’s case for 2024 in the states that do have lower TFR and still command a larger share of seats in the Parliament than merits their population.

      1. I remember reading that seat share in Lok Sabha between north and south is already fixed in perpetuity.

      2. Tiwari is a Hindu in Punjab so mostly inconseqeuntial.

        Will be very surprised if BJP pushes for delimitation. Why fix if something ain’t broke? They winning N-India already. De-limitation opens the pandora box of Southern states demanding more economic devolution in lieu of lesser representation. Something which the center in already struggling with

    2. “Modi might push ahead with constituency delimitation in 2026”

      This sounds like a bad idea, especially since MPs collectively have the power of the purse, and the high population growth states are the ones that contribute relatively less to the central exchequer. It would be better to push this back to 2050 or so when UP/Bihar hopefully catch up somewhat with the rest of India economically.

      Overall I don’t see how increasing seats to 900 will help apart from increasing cost to the budget, most of the debates in the Lok Sabha aren’t constructive anyway and comprise mainly rhetoric repackaged for TV. As things stand, the anti-defection law ensures that everyone in a party goes with the orders from the top, so an MP is effectively just token representation for an avg. of 2 million people when it comes to mundane legislation (things like reservation and family law are another matter where they get more combative) since the decisions of the 20 or so ministers at the top rule the roost.

  36. american brown guys,
    1. which side are you in this trouble?
    2. funny to see black looters come in good cars!!

    1. Clearly with protesters! Why shouldn’t we support these people for looting Indian, Muslim, Asian and Jewish businesses! And we should support affirmative action for these people too and hurt our own community!

      But seriously this might be the only thing that gets Trump reelected.

      1. i am with the protesters, and i am serious. this is no time to be sarcastic. it is not funny.

        i watched the entire video clip of george floyd’s killing. yes the whole 10 min and 9 seconds of the clip i found on youtube here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8hGKB5QDhw&t=476s . i watched with my stomach turning as a black victim, pinned under the knee of a white perpetrator, desperately gasped for air and begged for his life and cried out for his mother. i saw the black victim’s life literally being squeezed out second by second on the video clip. i saw the depraved look on the white perpetrator’s face as he enjoyed every moment of killing his helpless black victim.

        yes, the violence and looting during the protests is deplorable. but that does not stop me from calling a spade a spade. america has a racial problem. the protests are just the way people are making the nation listen.

        1. The cop is a murderer but he’s been charged. If people were protesting nobody would have an issue. People have a problem with rioting and looting as well as violence. In Richmond, VA they set a residential building on fire , a building with a kid inside and blocked firefighters from getting to that building. In NYC 2 idiots from upstate threw a Molotov cocktail at a police car with 4 cops in it. In Rochester they beat a husband and wife with 2 x 4s for defending their homes and neighbors store. What does that have to do with racial injustice?

          1004 people were shot by cops in 2019. ~37% were white. ~16% were Hispanic. Even if we assume all were unjustified (which isn’t the case) its hardly as common as people are making it out to be and also not something that only affects African Americans.

          Also what happened to social distancing?

  37. Another Masihi blasphemy death row case. If there is a God, may he bless this lawyer. If there isn’t, he will have to make do with my respect and admiration.

    I tell you, so much Islamophobia these days.

    ‘Asia Bibi’s lawyer Saiful Malook is representing Shafqat and Shagufta. Justice Shahbaz Rizvi hearing the appeal was one of the judges who upheld Asia’s death sentence in 2014. Also, Shagufta is being kept in the same death cell where once Asia was kept.’

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/2232952/1-lhc-take-case-blasphemy-case-june-3/?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

    1. Well thankfully not for long,already both pops(Hindu,Christians) are at around 2 percent.

      We will will cleanse the infidel from the land of the pure.

      Inshallah! Jazakallah! (this i have learnt recently)

      1. Check this out, almost every tweet (and there are countless of them) is the story of a little girl and her family’s life utterly destroyed.

        https://mobile.twitter.com/johnaustin47

        Really heartbreaking stuff.

        My position is that CAA should include all atheists (by definition/translation brown/Indian atheists are Nastik Hindus) and on a case by case basis Ahmedis, Balochs and Hazaras i.e. persecuted/on blasphemy trial/under-threat Muslims , with monetary and other government support to make these people feel at home in India.

        These people have greater right over shelter in India than Tibeteans or Afghans.

        1. My position is that CAA should never include any ethnicity whose own people have left them to die while they merrily grandstand now in India.

          All states in India should come out on their position as to where they stand on CAA, and if they are willing to take in these refugees. If not than it should not fall on other ethnicities to shoulder their burden.

          1. I don’t think anyone other than the Northern states would agree to influx, maybe Karnataka will agree. But who will take Hazaras or Balochs? I read there are Marathi Balochs who descended from Marathas taken captive after Panipat. So maybe Maharastra can be convinced about Balochs. If India opens up (it should) in a big way I think a large number of persecuted Muslims will show up. About 1k recorded forced conversions every year, 5k Pakistani Hindus come to India every year, I estimate the number of persecuted Muslims making the move might even be in triple digits annually.

            Ahmedis presently seem to be very good people, can’t say the same about their ancestors, obviously karma is a bitch:

            “Furqan Battalion was a uniformed fighting force of volunteers (khuddam-i-din[1]) in newly formed Pakistan, composed of the minority Ahmadiyya branch Muslims. Formed in June 1948[2] at the direction of Ahmadiyya leader Mirza Mahmood, at the request of Pakistan government, the unit fought for Pakistan against India in the First Kashmir War. In addition to its troops being drawn from the Ahmadiyya population, the expenses of maintaining the unit were also paid by that community.”
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furqan_Force

            I once spent an entire day with three Ahmedi uncles (after a cancelled flight). They drove me around the city and gave me food. Great people said they had been to India on pilgrimages to the annual Ahamedi congregation. Two owned a small trash collection business while the third was some lawyer in Canada (with a usual fraud/paid-passport Pakistan to Canada immigration) and were quite enterprising. Not the regular Pakistani upper-class landed immigrants. Very nice people and would assimilate much better than Afghans studying in India who are just complete assholes.

            This ‘Indian states should agree to taking people in’ also reminds me of some 500k Biharis left behind in Bangladesh. Pakistan abandoned them because Sindh which is already innundated with Mojahirs refused to take anymore while Punjabis with their ever convenient hypocrisy pointed fingers around. Balochistan and NWFP played the victim card. I don’t know why Mojahirs didn’t help their cousins. But in India inevitably the burden will fall on the North.

          2. Some comments

            “Ahmedis presently seem to be very good people, can’t say the same about their ancestors, obviously karma is a bitch:”

            The Lord…visits the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation. (Exodus)

            “I don’t think anyone other than the Northern states would agree to influx, maybe Karnataka will agree”

            Well i have heard our Scandinavian southern states who somehow think themselves as more Hindu than North can be very accommodating 🙂

          3. @Bhimrao

            “If India opens up (it should) in a big way I think a large number of persecuted Muslims will show up. About 1k recorded forced conversions every year, 5k Pakistani Hindus come to India every year, I estimate the number of persecuted Muslims making the move might even be in triple digits annually.”

            Genuine question not rhetorical — do you really think Muslim minority communities would seek refuge in India if given the opportunity?

            “I don’t think anyone other than the Northern states would agree to influx, maybe Karnataka will agree.”

            It’s also important to consider what the refugee claimant would prefer and what situations would be conducive to their successful integration. Refugees from Pakistan would probably have an easier time integrating into Northern and Western states, while refugees from Bangladesh (if any) would probably have an easier time integrating into Eastern states and refugees from Sri Lanka would have an easier time integrating into Southern states.

            Maybe we could structure it so that the states that are not being assigned refugees contribute monetarily to a fund to help lessen the burden on the states that are assigned refugees. In that way, it can be a shared burden while also putting refugees in a position to succeed.

            That said, Karnataka and Telangana should be considered as potential destinations for Pakistani refugees, as well.

            But I’m not convinced that Muslim minorities in Pakistan would want to seek refuge in India.

          4. @Hoju
            Not that anyone with power will (or should) listen to me (and my shallow idealism) but I am certain a very large number will show up. My sympathies are primarily with the atheist ones from Bangladesh and Pakistan (of whom there is a very active and I estimate quite large community these days online). Place for people like Asia Bibi is India not Canada. Gora people have no business playing white savior on our people.

            So many (40,000) Rohingya are already here (illegally and thus very worryingly in J&K). Even if we want we won’t be able to stop it, I am no expert on this but the folk wisdom about a decade ago in WB was that BSF personnel let in Bangladeshis for Rs 200 per person. There are hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshis and although Islam is a fundamentally divisive and anti-coexistence so giving refuge is tricky but formalizing some mechanism is better than just letting it happen.

          5. “About 1k recorded forced conversions every year”
            correction:
            1k forced conversion, abduction and marriages of little girls every year.

        1. why are the afghans studying in India “assholes?” Do they stereotypically do something bad?

          1. Yeah, i found that weird 2. My experience has been ok-ish. They used to keep to themselves during my undergrad studies, and hardly interacted with anyone.

          2. Gross generalizations due to insufficient data.
            There are two kinds of Afghan students in India: those on ICCR scholarships and those whose families are rich and/or have family connections in India. The first wave of second type came to North Indian engineering colleges in early 2000s. Friendly but rich, entitled, racist and casually disrespectful.

            Quite a few get into fights with Indian students very regularly, of such incidences only a few serious ones get reported in news. One of my friend from a prominent Noida degree mill had been in one such scuffles and his testimony colors my judgement. The general impression is that most Afghans are shy but the asshole ones can be extremely lecherous.

          3. There was this other instance from when I was younger that my brother told me about, Afghan guys at his college (apparently one of them was the son of some provincial governor) getting into a fights with Indian guys with serious hospitalizations.

            Most of them are nice but have strong ganging-up tendencies. I know of another one from a University in Punjab or Himanchal when there were stabbings during a Indian-Afghan fight. There are definitely a lot more.

      2. This is not funny. Pakistani non-Muslim minorities are Pakistani citizens and it is the duty of the state to protect them.

        Just as it is the duty of the Indian state to protect minorities in India. Do we see the Hindutva regime doing that?

        I thought you didn’t want to discuss the Hindu/Muslim thing. But you jump quite quickly on the anti-Pakistan bandwagon.

  38. I mean if we’re talking about asshole ancestors why the fuck would we want Hazaras? They’re racially foreign as well.

    1. Did Hazaras do anything in recent memory to hurt us? I just know that Pakistanis and Afghans regularly bomb them as they are Shias.

      I am quite OK with the race thing, diversity is a strength (usually). if anyone calls themselves Indian (or are brown skinned in which case they automatically are Indian irrespective of country) they are Indian.

  39. I mean they’re literally the product of East Asians raping a South Central Asian women.

    Why do we need to help them? Count me as not a fan of their mongol ancestors.

    1. South Asian Union sounds good but that won’t happen until Islamic and Brahminical supremacists give up their claim to the absolute.
      Especially Islam can be quite divisive and entitled. They can’t coexist with ‘others’, especially pagans. Heck, they can’t even coexist with their own kind. Until, religion dies off or it’s clutch on general people tapers off nothing good is coming out of S Asia.

    2. This would be ideal but it will not happen until the Kashmir dispute is resolved.

      In fact, such a solution could potentially make the borders in Kashmir meaningless. It doesn’t matter now whether Alsace-Lorraine is French or German since citizens of both can freely go there. Another solution could be an independent Kashmir (Valley+AJK) as a constituent of the South Asian Union.

      1. The world is already moving away from various unions and all, and here u are expecting a South Asia Union. LOL

    3. It would be great in theory. But there is a massive trust deficit for that to happen in foreseeable future!

    4. We already have a ‘South Asian’ EU. It is the Union of India.

      The neighbouring countries are recalcitrant entities that did not want to be part of it.
      Pakistan is like the Balkans in the 90s and Sri Lanka like Norway.

      1. India is just one country. It is not the same as the EU.

        A South Asian EU would include India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, perhaps Afghanistan.

        It would be one way of solving the Kashmir issue and some of the other territorial disputes.

        1. “India is just one country. It is not the same as the EU.”

          India has 29 states and multiple union territories that are comparable in size and population to European countries.

          Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka are all like single Indian states or European countries. Pakistan is like four of them.

          So out of the 40-ish possible states in the Indian subcontinent, 30 comprising most of the population and area are in one union.

          The rest 10 don’t want to be, though they do have trade relations with India. The 4 states comprising Pakistan are opposed to the union completely.

          UK, Ukraine, Norway, Switzerland, Serbia, possibly Turkey etc are also all part of the European subcontinent. They are not part of the EU.

          1. We are not talking about size or population but of a union of nation-states. India is just one nation-state.

            The main point of a union would be freedom of movement between Lahore and Delhi (and perhaps Kabul). Kashmiris on both sides could also visit each part of the divided territory. The LOC would cease to matter.

          2. Given the amount of cross-border terrorism and the easy access (even welcome) that international Islamist elements enjoy in Pakistan, it would be quite irresponsible of the Indian government to make it any easier for people to cross the border with Pakistan.

  40. Who cares about a South Asian union? There’s more to be gained by good relations with Central Asia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, Japan, North Korea and the Anglosphere. India isn’t going to develop its economy by fucking allying with Bhutan and Bangladesh. Nor should we want unchecked immigration from those places.

  41. “We are not talking about size or population but of a union of nation-states. India is just one nation-state”

    Kabir, your knowledge of India is very questionable and if you keep making such comments people might think you’re ignorant.

    Indian constitution defines it as a UNION with Federal structure and power divisions among ethno-linguistic state, central and concurrent lists. Also, india doesn’t have a single national language and religion. India is a combination of diverse multi ethno-linguistic regions with nobody having a clear majority which is why democracy and federal system were adopted. I don’t think you are just ignorant but you’re wilfully ignorant and I dislike the latter kind and pity/forgive the genuinely ignorant. Go tell that India is a nation state to Tamils, Telugus, Kannadigas, Malayalis, Bengalis, Marathis, Gujarathis, Odias, Coorgis, Ladakhis, Manipuris, Assamees, Nagas, Punjabis, Kashmiris and see the reaction.

    If all individual nations of EU qualify as nation-states then there is no doubt about Individual states of India claiming to be ethno-linguistic states. Infact in Telugu we call Telangana and Andhra Pradesh as Telugu Desam, literally meaning Telugu Nation. Same with tamil nadu and Karnataka respectively in their languages. Most of the ethno-linguistic states of India have older, richer traditions and history compared to EU although poorer in economical terms.

    1. Yea, the Indian Union is to the Indian subcontinent what the European Union is to Europe.

    2. You clearly have no idea what a nation-state is.

      The United States is a union of 50 states, yet it is a nation state. There is one central government. Similarly, India has one central government, one army, one national flag. Everyone carries Indian passports not Tamil or Punjabi ones.

      And it’s cute that you mention Kashmir. Kashmiri Muslims think India is an OCCUPYING POWER. Deal with it.

      1. As I said, it’s hard to educate a wilfully ignorant person.

        Nation-state definition:
        a sovereign state whose citizens or subjects are relatively homogeneous in factors such as language or common descent.

  42. Well me thinks we are unnecessarily getting worked up on Kabir thing. Clearly what he’s mentioning is an union of present day SA countries.

    Either way it’s not going to happen, so why sweat it?

    1. This attitude is what I don’t like about Indians. It’s not gonna happen so let’s ignore it and not study it until it comes back to bite your ass. Miscreants (like Kabir) spreading their fake narratives and ignorance should be challenged always.

  43. It appears all my 18 year old cousins in Pakistan have become experts in critical race theory.

      1. They are posting various screeds on the importance of Black Lives Matter. My hijabi housewife cousin who normally posts pictures of flowers and cakes now has their logo as her profile pic.

        1. lol maybe they will hate the “black little dravidian australoid cowardly hindoos a bit less”

          1. Nah, it is easier to go with popular slogans of the day , esp when you can’t be white than to do some introspection with your and about your cultural baggage

  44. Brownie peepz, Jaggallah is backkk and whiter than ever! Been to ma endz in Uzbak landz bredrin’. #WhiteTurksMatter
    I see in the time I waz away, gentoos and bandits and subdudes have infested the commentaria again. No longer will this be allowed as the sword of Islam is unsheathed once more held under the banner of tawheed and in the arm of the Turk of Turks….

    I see my Pak bro Kabira holding the fort under bandit siege. Time for rear-guard action.

    Can I say EU is a land of wusses. Who dafack wantz to be Eurotrash?? I mean da polskies and farangis used to give us trouble in the olden days. But look at these pale excuses-for-white-spermatozoa now… send your women over already I say! Rossiya is the only white Christian country I #respect.

    Loolz at Indian babloo banditz talking about diplomacy n shit like da big boys…. Funny as hell.. Big up for my man Erdogan on showing them whoz the boss in the UN – thatz our little European blood speaking broz. Don’t wake up the Turks!

    And #PakTurk Zindabad broz!! #Ertugrul Ghazi being the hit in the Lang of the Horde (Urdu) is like Daddy comin’ home.!!!

    #JaggooJangaPakDefender
    #JaggerWhiteMareBestride_OnlyWhiterThanHisRide

  45. Bosnian Security Minister Fahrudin Radoncic (muslim) resigned from his post. The reason was because the Muslim member of the central Presidency, Shefik Dzaferovic and the Minister for Foreign Affairs Bisera Turkovic (muslim) received Pakistani ambassador who organised thousands of Islamic fighters from Pakistan to come to Bosnia and did not stand behind him as a minister. Basically, muslim co-president and muslim minister for FA gave their support for arrival based on fake travel visas of many thousands of Islamic fighters from Pakistan and the Middle East.

  46. Recently, I proposed that Khanishka during the Covid’s Zoom meeting organise the choir singing as some others did. I drafted few words as a beginning. After these US happenings, it becomes actual again. It also can be a kernel for a future SA Union antem as the Ode to Joy was in Europe.
    So, for those who missed and for those who intend to make a final version, here we go…

    This is India,
    This is Pakistan,
    We are the world, we are the Asia,
    We are the brown children
    We are the ones who make a brighter brown day,
    So let’s start giving,
    We can’t go on pundits
    Pretending day-by-day
    That someone, somewhere soon make a change
    We’re all a part of Vishnu’s and Alah’s great big family
    And the truth, you know, love is all we need
    Since our Aryan forefathers
    And even before
    Up to Modi, Razib&Imran Khannnn,
    Make India great again,
    I cannot breathe, brown lives matter
    There’s a choice we’re making
    It’s true we’ll make a better day,
    just you and #me too…

  47. The US/Nato aggression on Serbia was finished 21 years ago. What is the current situation today in Kosovo under Albanian Muslim occupation and western protection?

    In the last ten years alone, about 150 Serbian churches, monasteries and other buildings have been destroyed, damaged and desecrated, of which as many as 61 have the status of cultural monuments, and 18 of them are of exceptional importance for the state of Serbia. At the same time, more than 10,000 icons, church-artistic and liturgical objects were destroyed and stolen.

    Also, 5,261 tombstones in 256 Serbian Orthodox cemeteries were destroyed and damaged, while in more than 50 cemeteries there is not a single complete monument, even bones were excavated and scattered from the graves. Desecration and destruction do not stop even today. The cemeteries have been turned into landfills, they are inaccessible, overgrown with weeds and shrubs. However, even these crimes do not seem to be enough, so there are unheard of attempts to replace and rename the Serbian cultural identity in Kosovo and Metohija.

    Not one perpetrator has been found for all these crimes so far!

  48. Todays must read from one of my favorite Analysts, Matt Tabbi. A cautionary tale for Sri Lanka too, as policing in SL too is getting infected by the numbers game.

    Finally, we’re winning the war against crime. Here’s why”), police departments became infected by a corporate-like mania for “goal-setting” and “deliverables.”

    Commissioners demanded captains deliver numbers and captains began browbeating lesser officers, who in turn pushed quotas on patrol cops, for reasons that often had nothing to do with crime.

    The stats revolution, “shit always rolls downhill.” The point was to get lieutenants promoted to captain, to get mayors re-elected, and help provide the rationale for the prison jobs state legislators were bringing home to suburban districts. All of this was greased by the lobbying money of construction firms, prison vendors, even private prison corporations – a great business for all, and all that was needed to keep it going was an endless stream of jailable people.

    For most of the 20th century the rate of incarceration in America was roughly 110 per 100,000 people. As of last year, the number was 655 per 100,000.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/taibbi-where-did-policing-go-wrong

  49. I think the entire riot thing in USA is pre-planned so that anti-black sentiments can be used to make Americans support Trump in the upcoming American Election. This arrogant stupid(but may be good for USA) man will win again.

    But after all, the deep state controls everything

    1. What are you talking about? Black people and white Bernie bros are rioting to get Trump elected?

    2. I think this thought goes in conspiracy theory domain. I had heard same in case of ISIS. Where CIA and Mossad were funding the ISIS, the rebels and the assad faction at same time. Same comment was made (by Turkish friend) for the recent Turkey vs Syria clashes.

      I think the republicans will take advantage of the situation but everything is planned and we are just puppets feels like washing hands of responsibility.

      1. This riot will of course benefit Trump. I believe it is pre-planned(Including Floyd’s death). However, there are still some hope for Democrats.
        Zionists who indirectly control the world economy and politics mostly vote for Democrats. But the higher likelihood is that Trump will win. No matter who is in power, the deep state decides everything.

        The world used to be ruled by the UK. At present, it is ruled by the USA. Very soon, Israel will directly play that role and the children of Israel will the rule the world from Jerusalem just as now it is ruled from Washington.
        Just wait and see. Interesting stuffs coming…

        And yes there are enough reasons to believe that those Syrian armed groups are funded by CIA and Mossad. Some are also funded by Iran ig). These groups(specially ISIS) are ultimately benefiting Israel the most.

        Conspiracy is an essential & significant part of humanity and human history. So possibility of conspiracies should always kept in mind.

  50. ‘In the Gilgit-Baltistan region of Pakistan this week, several priceless ancient Buddhist rock carvings have been damaged with paintings, including one of Pakistan’s national flag. The carvings were already under threat from a Chinese-led dam development underway in the same valley. According to residents of the area, the vandalism may be a response to attempts to halt the dam project’

    https://www.buddhistdoor.net/news/ancient-buddhist-rock-carvings-in-pakistan-vandalized

    I had posted about these petroglyphs that would be sunk by the big Dam in Pakistan’s illegally occupied Indian territory of Gilgit Baltistan just a few weeks ago.

    1. Fake news!

      Our born again Indus ‘Buddhist-but-not-really’ folks can never do that. Must be handiwork of those North Indian Aryan colonizers.

  51. Found this mandatory undertaking on the application form for overseas citizens of india.

    “I shall not use the Overseas Citizen of India card for undertaking any TABLIGH activities in India”

    interesting. doesn’t that go against the secular constitution of india. i mean, indians never miss an opportunity to occupy moral high ground against pakistanis because pakistani passport forms supposedly contain explicit undertakings that go against the faith of ahmadis. and here we are.

    also, this seems to be a new development (a modi-shah kartoot?). i dont remember this questions being there earlier. does anyone remember?

    1. It is a Modi-Shah Kartoot, I think this came around 2018 (see link below) after GOI lost case in court against banning that Hyderabad Tablighi guy. The original rules(and Form XVIII) from 2009 don’t have this(I verified this not including the link). Also includes missionaries, journalists (Taseer jr.?) and Mountaineers (I guess they put this in to confuse everyone and appear innocuous).
      gazette:
      http://www.bareactslive.com/ACA/ACT371.HTM
      case:
      https://indiankanoon.org/doc/123248715/?type=print&__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=77587478c2de5ac8eba90a71f07df6ff15d43ca5-1591230553-0-AaQYiQItg-Bh_iNfRioKs7nj7Cb3uBkEa5QVR6Hw3q7I0OCIMmCKn0VFXE7yGqXiEHSqnFJYXmWfwbGcQX5t5_HP8uF7-hkob-38aamj6WRNaiSPmC6HS3bX5LRFiFWQf5dDVD3Nv1SWb6tPemTBuZOE8vjttPJWkmezS_iHqVpjeJjsqWE2XehZ_4D8cWrTIHJbmV3Z-n0Hd2j5qrd8_6NC-E5Bw6FyU37mFvJ8HXfWEhhprDQcTQq6HlRkEcEbb21AKGWa9PBhzOiUNIDqbyQIyiDwFRg7YFb57r7p7i-SH32FIPOEIkszG5a33ZGo6BSRCqFT_ZfumRo92ZY7fouU5XxYAg_8-PvpU91gD_yu0F8oBd4fDCiLxmvWTOT1CA

      1. Here you go original 2009 form-XVIII
        https://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6b5791a.html
        No mention of Tabligh etc.
        I verified the dates too, I am almost sure they did it on purpose. Here is another news about the case they(GoI) lost against a missionary.

        ‘Restoring the Overseas Citizen India (OCI) status of a Kerala-born doctor accused of “missionary activities” in India, the Delhi High court on Tuesday said that “all persons in this country have a right to practice their faith in the manner they consider fit so long as it does not offend any other person”.

        Justice Vibhu Bakhru said that “a person has the right to practice his faith and his rendering medical services in furtherance of religion cannot be denied”. ‘

        https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/hc-says-freedom-of-faith-for-all-restores-oci-status-of-doctor/story-hZpRkhRAVbjNdb9NWLN68I.html

        We all know about Taseer junior the journalist. There might have been some mountaineering trouble too but I doubt it. And this was bundled with the OCI rules changes of Citizenship Ammendment Bill.

        1. The ‘Citizenship’ in OCI is a joke . Citizenship or passport gives inalienable rights of Freedom of speech, Publishing, propaganda, etc. OCI was made to make travelling in and out of India hassle-free. Apart from that , it does give economic and cultural rights – OTOH, GoI has the right to easily determine what are the limitations of cultural /economic rights of OCI holders.
          Many people are crying that Taseer revocation of OCI goes against fundamental rights ; it does not. OCI is far from citizen rights and given at the discretion of GoI.

          It is better if GoI changes the name from OCI to something different removing C from it as C gives lot of confusion

  52. Serbia “least racist in Europe” – say Harvard boffs

    The Metro publishes research which shows that people in Serbia have the lowest levels of racist attitudes in Europe. The evidence comes from Harvard, the top university in the world, where researchers interviewed a whopping 288,076 white Europeans to reach these figures.

    The controversial tests do not ask whether you hold racist views or who you vote for. Indeed, the test can reveal the “inner bigot” even in people who hold sincere anti-racist views.

    The research flies in the face of a slew of news which has implicated Serbia in a host of racist vitriol from the wars in the 90s which, according to some in the West, were stirred up mainly by Serbs in order to create an ethnically pure Greater Serbia.

    The article is published in several magazines, one of them is:

    https://mindhacks.com/2017/05/03/this-map-shows-what-white-europeans-associate-with-race-and-it-makes-for-uncomfortable-reading/

    1. Unlike Westerners, Eastern Europeans are not so arrogant

      I believe that the Eastern Orthodox Christian World will unite with Russia and they will win the coming nuclear war against NATO. The Western World will suffer.

    2. Pundits around the world probably know for many athletic races conducted in western countries close to the biggest Christian festivities (e.g. Christmas race, New Year’s Eve, Easter race, etc). What about Muslim holidays? I don’t know about athletic races, especially for women, in any Islamic country which are dedicated to muslim Holi days. However, they exist in Serbia. Two days ago, were conducted 21st International Ramadan races in the Serbian city of Novi Pazar.

      The representative of Serbia in athletics, Elzan Bibić (muslim), won the international 21st Ramadan race in Novi Pazar. He crossed the 3,000-meter race in seven minutes and 55.62 seconds, which is the best time in the world in 2020 on that section. Several races were conducted by racers at different age levels, including juniors in both, male and female categories.

  53. Everybody is familiar with the Pakistani contribution to Britain, Rotterham. Here is a news story of the Pakistani contribution to America.

    Ex-analyst under Obama guarantees bail for alleged bomb-throwing lawyerA former intelligence analyst who worked in both the State and Defense departments during the Obama administration guaranteed bail for a New York lawyer who allegedly firebombed an NYPD vehicle — calling her “my best friend.”

    Salmah Rizvi, an NYU Law grad who now works for the prestigious DC firm Ropes & Gray, helped secure the release of fellow lawyer Urooj Rahman by agreeing to be a suretor for her bail during a bail hearing in Brooklyn federal court Monday, the Washington Free Beacon reported.

    “Urooj Rahman is my best friend and I am an associate at the law firm Ropes & Gray in Washington, DC. I earn $255,000 a year,” Rivzi told the judge, who sprang Rahman over prosecutors’ objections.

    https://nypost.com/2020/06/04/ex-analyst-under-obama-guarantees-bail-for-alleged-bomb-throwing-lawyer/

    1. Parents must be so proud. Employers must be ecstatic. And the black community must be so thankful for such good allies.

  54. Interesting read on demise of Pakistan Steel Mills.
    https://herald.dawn.com/news/1153574

    “The Arif Habib Group and Al-Tuwairqi Group – two of the parties the government qualified to take part in the privatisation process – formed a consortium to offer a joint bid for the purchase of shares. Magnitogorsk Iron and Steel Works also joined the consortium on the day the bids were to be made. This consortium, according to the petition filed at the Supreme Court, offered to pay 16.80 rupees per share, a price higher than those offered by their competitors.”

    “When Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, the chief justice of Pakistan at the time, took the decision against the privatisation of Pakistan Steel Mills, it seemed like a victory for the workers. Later, events would suggest that it was a pyrrhic one.”

    I had once visited the closed Fertilizer Corporation of India’s Sindri plant. Other than Tata Steel and Durgapur SAIL plant, I have still not seen a beast like it. The place was huge, endless rows of chimneys and industrial machinery. It too should have been privatized when there was still time. Over and over worker’s unions think that they are smarter than everyone else, the planners, bosses, advisers, government and with street protests and strike lead to their own demise.

    Reminds me of what Abhijeet Iyer Mitra said about forced privatization. Government employees will never accept it and will shamelessly continue to suck the life blood of the country, so, the rest of us must force it. Air India lost $10 Billion over the past decade, just sell or scrap them already.

    1. “When Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, the chief justice of Pakistan at the time, took the decision….”
      Also such reckless judges should be tried for their crimes against the country . Pakistan was hurt by other clowns too who passed verdicts on those floating electricity plant, Reqo-Diq etc, leading to massive penalties in international arbitration.

    2. This is where China scores over India. Till 1980 most of Chinese were attached to their ‘commune’ and to travel within their country they needed permissions and what have you ? Under Deng communes were abolished.
      The Chinese govt took the decision to open up industry for private investment , both Chinese and international. and voila it was done.
      These decisions were the reason for China attracting billions of $$ of foreign investment, far far ahead of India and that was the phenomenal growth of China from 1980 to 2020 which has transformed Chinese and international industry and trade totally.
      No proletarian rights stood in the way.

      Modi govt is still dithering over economic reforms. If Modi had been in the place of Narasimha Rao , he would never have taken Rao’s decision for economic reform. Modi is basically a cautious player .

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