Rape Culture, Indian Edition

There is news about another rape case (alleged rape case?) making wavers in India and Twitter regular @conradkbarwa posted some excerpts from a book by poet and journalist Nirupama Dutta that you can see below:





The anecdotes listed in these pages are obviously very disturbing and shocking, and I have no doubt that even if Nirupama moves in unusually nasty company, many such cases do occur across the Indian subcontinent and in most of them the police are yet another source of oppression (and sometimes even a second rape in the police station). The excerpts above are from East Punjab, so from a land that we are not entirely unfamiliar with (apart from whatever similarities exist across east and west Punjab, my in-laws are from villages near Ludhiana). It made me think about our own Punjab and the various anecdotes I have heard about rape of lower class women in villages as well as the use of sweepers and servants for sexual favors in urban areas. And of course, about the well publicized recent rape cases in Pakistani Punjab and about Razib Khan’s comment somewhere that “THIS is what a real rape culture looks like”. Which led to a tangential question in my mind: what are the similarities and differences between rape culture in Pakistani Punjab and Indian Punjab? 

  1. Differences in terms of actual prevalence and mechanics? Is such rape more common? less common? about the same? What figures do we have? How reliable are they? What is the trendline? How does this compare to other societies? 
  2. Differences in how it is framed: rapes in Pakistan tend to be framed as either class oppression (mostly by leftist/liberal commentators) or as “declining morals due to Indian movies, western influence, modernization, etc” (Islamist and/or traditional commentators). Rapes in India tend to be framed as class oppression too at times, but it seems that liberals and even traditional leftists in India (or about India, this is also true of most sympathetic Western commentators) seem very likely to blame “Brahminism” and the caste system as very specifically Indian forms of rape culture, not comparable to similar atrocities that happen to lower class populations in other countries (though I assume that population numbers being what they are, most actual rapists in East Punjab are  likely to be Jats or other local elites, Sikhs rather than Hindus, and rarely Brahmins). There is also a traditionalist view in India (that “lax morals, westernization, bollywood ” etc are to blame) and of course Hindutva types will add “love jihad” or “Muslim/Turkic colonization” to the list of putative causes. What are the most important causes in your view? 
  3. Which brings me to the real trigger for this post: Do you think the focus on caste in East Punjab (as in Nirupama Dutta’s book) and its relative absence in Western Punjab stories reflects a real difference in how easy it is to rape poor girls and get away with it? I know most Pakistanis will say this is exactly the case and that we are much better off since we are Muslims and any caste-ism that exists in us is a legacy of Hinduism, is less than it is in East Punjab, is fading fast and is the reason we have less rapes already, while Indian society will remain stuck in rape culture because of “Brahminism”.  Of course this is a question that in principle can be answered. What is the prevalence of the rape/sexual abuse of lower class women in Pakistani Punjab vs East Punjab? If it is really lower, then it needs an explanation. If it is not lower, then it may be that the focus on Brahminism is taking the public discussion (and possible solutions) into unhelpful areas? Or is it Pakistan that needs to talk more about caste rather than class to catch up to the reality? 
  4. I am not revealing any secrets by adding that this is connected to a personal feeling that left/liberal discourse is focused on political needs (defeating BJP/Hindu revivalism in this case)  and when you add that the usual human thing of finding a convenient narrative and beating it to death, it is possible that Pakistanis are actually a little better at analyzing their own society because they don’t have to carry this burden. But I am aware that this may be an extension of “grass is greener on the other side” on my part, and it is in fact the case that conversion to Islam (or “Indus man superiority”) has made Pakistanis less rapey than Indians. But if this is the case, why are Sikhs still rapey? does Brahminism work on them more than it does on Punjabi Muslims? (I am also aware that 6 out of ten readers will misunderstand what I am trying to ask here, but that is par for the course and I am more interested in the 4 who do get the question).

Fire away…

Published by

Omar Ali

I am a physician interested in obesity and insulin resistance, and in particular in the genetics and epigenetics of obesity As a blogger, I am more interested in history, Islam, India, the ideology of Pakistan, and whatever catches my fancy. My opinions can change.

97 thoughts on “Rape Culture, Indian Edition”

  1. Few points :
    1. We need good data to say this – and I don’t have any – but not does I feel the other side so I would anyways fire away – Rapes of Dalits by upper caste men are 1 of N types rapes. We don’t really know the prevelance but it’s fair to assume Unprivileged women are more likely to face Rape and other abuse.
    2. Having said the most known Rape case from MH is very a Maratha girl (dominant) community was raped by Dalits. That was the trigger for the Maratha consolidation which led to demands for reservation. In that particular case there were accusations of misuse of SC ST act. – Kopardi rape Case.
    3. How this is related to Brahminism doesn’t work for me no matter how one tries to fit the narrative. It’s more about women who r considered dispensable or politically weak. There are areas in UP esp during BSP rule where such crimes acted other way around against Yadavs. But yes Dalits are more marginalised and hence might be more targetted. But Still No Data to make sweeping conclusions. Men in societies like India often Rape when they can get away with it – with Dalits it’s easier to get away with it – it seems.
    4. Another reason given by some for rising Rapes in Urban settings is frustrated, single men with no prospects of marriage who are culturally shocked in Urban setting where they internalize Urban women as Fair Game
    5. No fear of punishment – Indians courts by most accounts r worse than Pakistani courts which might mete out punishments more frequently. Totally shooting in the dark here. This issue is more relevant when communities perpetrating violence r politically connected – like currently Thakurs in UP under Yogi.
    6. And ofcourse in all backward societies Rape as Revenge or Showing Aukat is also a salient factor. Fair to assume atleast some rapes of Dalits r for showing aukat
    7. Inefficient courts and corruption cannot be understated as reasons for these cases.

    1. “We don’t really know the prevelance ” — @Gaurav, while it’s hard to get the exact number, we can come up with a good estimate by analysing NCRB data (get it from this site – https://ncrb.gov.in ) . Rapes against SCs by non-SCs and non-STs are charged with SC/ST act . So, we can compare the total percentage of sexual assualt and molestation cases filed under SC/ST act and then compare it with the rest of the population.

      Of course, one can say that rape of daluts will less likely to get reported but rape is generally under-reported.

      1. Of course, one can say that rape of daluts will less likely to get reported but rape is generally under-reported

        This is why I say we cant gauge the real prevalence;
        Anyways what does the NCRB data show?

  2. Another problem with this region is its really high male:female sex ratio over the last few decades, which is an unfortunate tragedy of the commons situation exacerbated by the availability of medical technology. In many regions stretching from Punjab to Western UP upto 15% of men won’t be able to find a wife, compound that with the underemployment predicament due to insufficient industrialization and that leaves a potential tinderbox that has no easy fixes. Not to mention the B-movie industry that’s a main source of entertainment for this crowd, where a women’s rejection gives a free pass to the hero to stalk her until she says ‘yes’.

    As for the trendline, it all matters on how much is getting reported, wherever honour of the family is placed on the woman’s body it’s less likely that the news would reach the public since that might ruin the victim’s life via humiliation, alongside unhelpful law enforcement who more often than not hold similar regressive views. Once a critical mass of society is aware of the problem through increased disclosure of such information, there’s collective pressure to deal with such issues post which (reported) cases start decreasing again.

    While caste and class may be among the multivariate reasons for increased occurrence, the most effective way to deal with it would be straight up rapid economic growth. A substantial increase in per capita GDP would allow for more resources to be put into awareness, education, and law enforcement. At 7.2% annual growth, GDP doubles every 10 years, so if per capita increases by 4x to $8000 by 2040 then that should have a knock-off effect on the incidence numbers. We’re in it for the long haul though, this’ll be a generational dilemma.

  3. the rapes i’ve read about in this sort of context remind me of two cases in the ethnographic literature

    – the way upper-class white males would casually rape slaves in the american south (some diaries have been published and they are quite frank)

    – the stories of german rapes during the occupation soviet territories during ww2. many of these women were killed after the rapes. the mass rapes of german women by the red army at the end of ww2 were understood to be retaliation in part for this (in general the german forces in soviet russia committed war crimes the whole time against everyone)

    i don’t think these two instances are exceptional. we just have a lot of textual evidence for various reasons.

    1. “the stories of german rapes during the occupation soviet territories during ww2. many of these women were killed after the rapes. the mass rapes of german women by the red army at the end of ww2 were understood to be retaliation in part for this (in general the german forces in soviet russia committed war crimes the whole time against everyone)”

      i thought nazi racial laws prohibited rape of inferior races like slavs and jews. of course that did not stop them from gassing or machine gunning their victims in thousands. but by and large the relative lack of sexual violence within the overall catalogue of nazi atrocities is noticeable.

      and soviet army raped all the way from moscow to berlin. as they regained lost soviet territory, first they raped russians and ukranians women for collaborating with the enemy, then the poles, and finally germans. surviving memoirs suggest that german communists who welcomed soviet army in berlin were the first to fall victim to soviet rape orgy.

      1. i thought nazi racial laws prohibited rape of inferior races like slavs and jews.

        you are confusing things. among many non-german people there was assumed to be ‘aryan’ elements that had been culturally submerged. there were arguments about the slavs, but it seems to me a lot of this was motivated by material considerations. they basically needed the peasants to die so that germans could be resettled (though some consideration was made for the necessity of slave labor too, so not total extermination).

        by the end of ww2 more than half the waffen ss was non-german https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_foreign_volunteers_and_conscripts

        jews and gypsies were in a different category.

      2. AH in his book confessed that majority of Germans were of Slavic (i.e. Serbian, because Slavs did not exist then) origin (Prussians, for e.g.). His theory that Germans were Aryans is in some percentage correct. This percentage is equal to the percentage of their Serbian ancestors.

  4. an iranian reader of gnxp once admitted to (proudly) raping effeminate gay men. he said it was part of their culture.

    honestly i would be curious if one of these guys outlined their rationale/feelings/etc. if they’ve changed their mind about the behavior?

    (re: american south, the rapes obv. continued after slavery, and strom thurmond illustrates a lot of sex continued

    1. I think it’s a turkic thing they might have learned post later steppe invasions.

      There is some saying among turkic peoples along the lines of

      “Women are for babies. Boys are for pleasure.”

      Bacha Bazi is quite strong in Afghan and Pak and not as much in India. Maybe that accounts for possibly less female rape. Granted, I doubt it is genuinely less in Pak. Well maybe stranger rape is less, given women leave the house less on average outside of nice areas of places like Lahore.

      1. that quote is usually attributed to pathans. but that’s a pedantic point. pedarasty was well known among Eurasian nomads. eg babur.

        i don’t think Pakistan is better https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/27/world/asia/27karachi.html

        Hina, who works the counter at KFC, said her brothers, who also work fast-food jobs, worried that she had become “too sharp and too exposed.”

        “They can look at other people’s girls,” Hina said with a grimace. “But they want their own girls hidden.”

        egypt is also another tourist hotspot that’s bad for single women. though some of that is racialized. black women are apparently assumed to be prostitutes in egypt

      2. they say that when a bird flies over kandahar, it flaps with just one wing, because it has to cover its behind with the other wing.

        this is the most wicked saying that i have heard about afghans 🙂

    2. Razib – Google India’s Daughter – The documentary on the 2012 Nirbhaya Delhi Rape which was banned; you might find chilling interviews of the Rapists. And the defense of those rapists by their Lawyer is – if possible worse

      Sad that the documentary was banned

  5. The revolutionary poet who has quite a reputation in left wing circles because he was killed by Khalistanis could only be Avtar Singh Sandhu who went by his pen-name “Paash”. His poetry sucks. Did not know he was such a sleazebag in real life.

    “What is the prevalence of the rape/sexual abuse of lower class women in Pakistani Punjab vs East Punjab? If it is really lower, then it needs an explanation. ”
    I don’t think its any lower. It may infact be much higher. Pakistan is more of a feudal society than India with rickety institutions and very little independent media presence. There is literally no way lower castes/classes can make a case for justice. Things just stay hidden, much more than in India.

    “If it is not lower, then it may be that the focus on Brahminism is taking the public discussion (and possible solutions) into unhelpful areas? ”
    Totally true. The problem in India atleast is of dominant land-holding castes (Rajputs, Jats, certain OBCs) oppressing weaker groups most of whom are Dalits. The power of dominant castes is weakening over time and that of Dalits is increasing. Dalits do not take things lying down and showing uppity Dalits their place may also be a reason why the viciousness of atrocities has increased. Also India has over the years developed institutions and mechanisms to bring injustice to light so even though things are improving it does not seem so.

    “Or is it Pakistan that needs to talk more about caste rather than class to catch up to the reality? ”
    Perhaps. Pakistan needs to come up with affirmative action for weaker groups, however it names them.

    “I am not revealing any secrets by adding that this is connected to a personal feeling that left/liberal discourse is focused on political needs (defeating BJP/Hindu revivalism in this case) and when you add that the usual human thing of finding a convenient narrative and beating it to death, it is possible that Pakistanis are actually a little better at analyzing their own society because they don’t have to carry this burden…. But if this is the case, why are Sikhs still rapey? does Brahminism work on them more than it does on Punjabi Muslims?”
    Noone ever rapes anyone because of Brahminism. Not the Sikhs, not the Jats, nor Rajputs or any other caste. Its the stupidest strawman ever to come out of the leftist intelligentsia in India. Even if the purpose is to defeat Hindutva, this line of attack won’t work. Despite heavy Maharashtrian Brahmin presence in the RSS, Brahmins are not the leaders of Hindutva anymore. Hindutva has fired up people from a lot of castes and Brahmins are only participants just as others. Hindutva leaders can be of any caste as Modi, Shah, Yogi have shown.

  6. Rape statistics would have been useful to judge claims of rape culture {From Twitter post or to check Razib’s claim abt. the issue} or the speculations Omar made in the post i.e. if there would have been region-wise statistics abt. prevalence of rape along with community based data of both rape accused & survivors {To make the case of UC raping LC women without consequences}, since govt. don’t provide such statistics {political reasons} these speculations will continue.

    Completely agree with GauravL’s response to the thread so i won’t have write point by point response myself.

    1. “prevalence of rape along with community based data of both rape accused & survivors {To make the case of UC raping LC women without consequences}, since govt. don’t provide such statistics {political reasons} these speculations will continue.” — @DeepN you can still make a close guess(it will imclude both UC and OBCs across all religions) if you correctly analyze the NCRB data, i talked about it in a reply to gaurav’s comment above.

      1. Check the work of Sufiya Pathan regarding kind of data availability & what can be inferred based on it –



        While your suggestion to infer insights using the data as it is made available is workable but we need clearer data. For e.g. by using the method you explained one can not find the difference in no. of SC/ST act cases between UC’s & OBC’s separately.

  7. rape statistics are not great everywhere 🙁 lots of it is definitional.

    that being said, India has a bad reputation among white women travelers compared to say china. indian men are much more sexually aggressive than Chinese men, at least at the extreme. one of my friends in graduate school travelled in India and was gang-raped by her guide and his friends (she admitted she was being dumb and naive as everyone warned her; she was a young attractive white woman traveling alone so should have taken precautions).

    the indian subcontinent has a bad rep period. pakistan and Bangladesh too.

    that being said, indians have told me that the south and bengal are more chill re street harassment than the north and northwest.

    1. My mother is middle aged and overweight and was walking through a relatively nice area of New Delhi at night and still got honked at by men asking her to come into their cars thinking she is a prostitute or whatever, despite her dressed much like everyone else. She was just alone no male around. New Delhi after 6pm, is very unsafe for women. the city most definitely has a rape issue.

      1. Outside Gujarat in North India it’s always advised for women (atleast from MH) who are alone to get home/hotel by 7. From girls/women friends I hear them often say major Gujarati cities r where they feel safest along with Pune Mumbai Bangalore HyBad

        Delhi and NCR has had a bad rep Viz women safety for atleast decades.

        Also Indian men have been known to act particularly Lechareously with Foreign/Urban women coz in their worldview that’s Fair game

        1. Yes. My family is from Gujarat but my grandparents migrated to other places. My patern side is in new delhi and maternal in Hyderabad.
          Hyderabad is safer than Delhi. But Ahmedabad is the safest for sure. My female relatives all share this consensus.

          1. +1. I have heard from many women from all over India, especially North India (mostly Delhi) about how safe they felt in Ahmedabad. The Delhi ones were particularly amazed at Ahmedabad girls roaming around on 2 wheelers at all hours in the night, and the late night rides during Navratri (also a time when a lot of young couples make out at 2 AM on the wide of avenues/boulevards without any harrassment ).

            Gujarat is amazingly safe for women. So is Mumbai given how big it is, and how many UP/Bihar types the city has..But I do remember a particularly gruesome gangrape case from Mumbai around the time of the Nirbhaya case..Perhaps it didn’t as much publicity and the woman didn’t die (she was a journalist doing a story on empty mill land and went to a secluded spot etc..)..

            I am against the BIMARU terminology that has reduced these states to nothing but ridicule for their poverty etc..However, when it comes to women safetly Delhi, Haryana and Western UP surely deserve their horrible reputation ..Believe Rajasthan is quite safe though

      2. Factoid: a lot of girls/women who live in Delhi often carry pocket knife or pepper spray just for safety. Having lived in the South for most of my life in India, I found this very sad and surprising.

        Delhi is truly a disgusting city! The servant culture where men coming from rural UP and Bihar are treated like utter trash, and the routine abuse that women face in that city is one reason why I would never move to that dump. Sometimes I wonder if Yudhistir (Dharmaraj) rolls in his grave seeing the utter corruption and moral degradation of the citizens of Indraprastha!

        South and Bengal are way better. North-East is also fairly safe for women.

    2. Yeah it’s weird when you go to Delhi…there’s basically zero women in the public sphere. Jarring for someone used to America, but I can’t blame them.

      I would not recommend Whites go to India tbh.

      1. To my firangi friends I recommend only the south, Ajanta-Ellora, Munnar, Alappuzha, Hampi, Badami, Gokarna, Mallapuram, Madurai, and Pondicherry are all reasonably good. One of my friends loved his time in Kerala backwaters and Hampi.

        1. Hoju,

          When you have upper class, educated, “think they are Westernized” saying some segments are of no value to society, that is discrimination par excellence.

          One may call it Ritual purity or whatever, but what but it is still discrimination. Rape which is extreme form of discrimination happens when there is the thinking some part of society is of no value.

          Mensuration purity, purdah etc are the flip side of the Rape culture. If you have the “purity” thinking you will have “impurity” and need to punish, i.e. rape.

  8. The Left in India has an exceptional record of trivialising public issues (poverty, water scarcity, superstition, colonial excess) for academic and personal rent seeking. And this (rape) is one of the goldmines that eternally attract poets and liberals with helmet mounted torchlights shaded by personal prejudice.

    The South African and Swedish (highest incidence per 100K pop) experiences show a much better way of trying to frame it in references of adolescent and interpersonal conflict.

  9. The South African and Swedish (highest incidence per 100K pop) experiences show a much better way of trying to frame it in references of adolescent and interpersonal conflict.

    sweden has a ridiculous ‘liberal’ way of tabulating it. nothing like south africa, where a literal ‘rape culture’ emerged out of weird ideas about how you cure HIV/AIDs & the all-male mining camps

  10. Since we are talking about poweful groups dominating weaker ones, this reminds me of a caste from rajasthan, ravana/golla (rajputs) . These folks are supposed to have descended from the union of rajput lords with their concubines and mistresses. The ravnas/gollas traditionally served as watchmen/daroga for their lords however,  gollas were (and are still ) not considered as ‘real rajputs’ by the rajputs.

  11. See the Lallantop show video of 1 Oct from 10 mins onwards ;
    It has some 7-8 other Rapes which took place around the end of September in just Uttar Pradesh – all terrible.
    Dwivedi makes a point to share names of all perpetrators

  12. so again…thinking back to what my white female friends (young) learn/hear/say/choose, i think there is zero percent chance there is a major difference btwn northern india and pakistan. places like saudi arabia are different because of ‘state capacity.’ given the chance saudi men behave the same. so there are two variables

    – does the state engage in enough deterrence

    – what’s the local culture like?

    china probably has some of both. south india as a less rapey local culture. saudi arabia has a rapey culture, but massive state deterrence (at least for western and muslim women; non-muslim women from third world are fair game)

    1. – does the state engage in enough deterrence
      – what’s the local culture like?

      seems very feasible IMO – Daily 88 rapes r reported in India according to the latest data and no punishment is meted out in the majority of those cases. Then there r unreported cases which must be significant if not larger. I think swift justice will definitely act as a deterrent (even if its Saudi style sharia justice).
      Gujarat has a less patriarchal & different culture and a more efficient state – so Gujarat is considerably safer than other parts of North.
      MH is also clearly considered safer – for more about culture than state IMO in MH.
      South India – both culture and state capacities are better than North India though it has to be more culture than the state
      Northeast – clearly the culture

      1. As a Gujarati, I disagree. Gujarati Culture is hardcore patriarchal. Ahmedabad came out in a list topping domestic violence. Rape I am sure is very common in small villages.

        The educated class of Gujaratis are just heavily influenced by philosophies like Jainism that really venerate things like non- violence and even celibacy with monogamy bring the only slightly worse alternative.

        A few guys in my family were literally proud to be virgins until marriage and a few not to drink. Yes this is BS on a universal level because a ton of Gujaratis engage in vice, especially in villages. But the urban class are almost Mormon like in their work ethic and morals. Hence why prohibition still works well.

        My dad is grew up in New Delhi and it was jarring for him to see the contrast at school and at home. He went to a good school in New Delhi (top one named after a freedom fighter, if you want to guess) and he met a lot of guys from all over India and one thing stood out among local Punjabi and Haryanvi guys: their fathers and older male siblings not always but a definite shockingly non trivial degree of times encouraged them to be highly sexually provocative and that they are entitled to fulfill their sexual appetite as men, some even paying for prostitutes for their sons or encouraging them to sleep with maids. They would take pride in eve teasing and chalk it up to how “manly” they are. They would regard the more reserved and studious on average S Indian behavior at the school a bit like how black and white kids often label E Asian behavior at American schools.

        1. There are hordes of Jatt / Haryanvi / Punjabi low IQ low skill international students coming to low prestige low effort colleges in the Greater Toronto Area who behave just like this. Mostly violent goons up to no good who harass women and give desis a bad reputation (or an even worse one).

    2. Anecdotal evidence from Saudi arabia and Gulf is that all Asian – Srilankan, Philippinio and otehr – house maids who are their by hundreds of thousands are regular sexual preys for their male employers and their friends. Thye can’t even complain to anyone due to the abysmal labour practices

  13. re: patriarchy. obv it is correlate with rapeyness, but it’s got a huge residual. e.g., chinese korean and japanese culture are pretty partiarchal. but they are way less rapey than MENA & scythian types. african culture is really patriarchal too, but most african cultures seem less rapey than MENA & scythian noes, though more so than e asia or europe (again, from talking to white women). the big issue with some places like s. africa is very particular local histories can produce local cultures u need to avoid (s. african rape culture emerged out of all-male barracks for miners)

  14. There is a reporting discrepancy, no other way to explain that kind of a gap between UP/Bihar and Kerala + northeast, even with the population size differences. You don’t even have to go that far, just Bihar vs Jharkhand is a jarring difference.

    1. explain that kind of a gap between UP/Bihar and Kerala + northeast

      Kerala is in many ways similar to Sri Lanka. Shows up in many stats, HDI, Literacy etc.

      Also not there is less reluctance to report rape in Sri Lanka, and I assume Kerala.

  15. TL; DR summary of the predictable comments from Hoju, thewarlock et al:

    When it comes to rapes, Jatts are an alien species to blame for all the social ills of India (Its THEY/THEM, not us!)

    When it comes to the face and skin color, Jatts are as “Brown” and as “AASI” as Modi et al. (THEY are Whitewashed, not us!)

    What’s ironic is that I have yet to see a West Asian-looking Jatt rape any woman (which is what constitutes the population of unfortunate women who fall victim to these rapes).

    This reminds me of the typical shtick I often see peddled by South Asians of various types (the high AASI ones): When India is derided as underdeveloped and rapey, etc, South Indians and Gujaratis, Marathis, etc. are quick to attribute all the blame to “Backward, low-IQ, underdeveloped, rapist Punjabis/Jats/Haryanvis” with a “Patriarchal sexist bride-burning culture” that are “nothing like other Indians” and “not representative of Indians in any way.”

    But when people start talking about skin color, race and differences in facial features, lo and behold! Jatts are no longer as alien as some claim, in fact they are “Brown” people interchangeable with these very Reddys and Gujaratis and other Indians that once claimed to be different from them. In fact, these other Indians are supposedly “as fair as Jatts and Kashmiris and North Indians.” and look “no different from North Indians” in “any way.” “We are ALL Brown to other people” etc. LMAO.

    The self-contradicting reasoning is HILARIOUS. Keep it up, Brown folks. Typical.

    1. predictable lol. I expose you every time. Everyone knows you are Jat chauvanist but it’s epically fun to see you boil over and show your true colors over and over again

      You have never seen someone of a certain phenotype be a rapist? Lmfao. Now I am doubting, if you know what rape is. Heck maybe you are one yourself and don’t know it.

      Lol “unfortunate women who fall victim”

      You sound like a racist old White slave owner from the South talking of black savage rapists. You are funny man. You really are confused. This is amazing. We finally have seen you for what you are.

      1. @thewarlock

        I read that in a high-pitched voice, IDK why.

        In case your brain couldnt comprehend what is a fairly simple post, all I stated was that South Asians are remarkably inconsistent with their positions. If Jats are aliens, why are they suddenly a part of some Brown monolith? And if Jats are Brown, why are they aliens when it comes to rapes and underdevelopment? Just be consistent. If Jats are rapey, they are also Gujarati looking and Brown. So in essence, its Gujarati Patels doing the raping, just under a different moniker and diet. Gandhi was very rap-ey in his behavior, sleeping naked with his nieces, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see if this is indeed the case. Jatts and Patels are like Kulcha vs Dhokla. Its Brown-on-Brown crime, not Steppe Shudras-on-Brown crime. Your reasoning is all over the patra place, Doctor Saab. Jats and Patels are interchangeable Brown folks. Potatoes vs Po-TA-toes like Gujjus would say (the one at my local Patel Bros says that all the time)

        But I challenge you to show me a picture of a single West Asian looking Jatt that has been in the news for raping a Dalit/Jatt/etc woman. Or been in the news for any rape/assault of any woman, even a White woman. Ironically, you will find that many of these rapists look rather familiar. I see similar faces at BAPS temples all the damn time. But don’t worry, I’m a Patel to, I share their fate. ;(

        1. lol what are you even talking about man. You need mental help.

          No one is inconsistent. Jats look like other indians with a slight west shift in distribution in cline such that while they still overlap much more with upper caste Northern s Asian non birdari people than they do with West Asians but have a greater minority that can pass as West Asians than another other group. but again, it’s a minority.

          They also, like land owning castes in India,have a reputation for rapey behavior with a caste angle to it.

          There is no contradiction. Again you don’t engage with my points. You straw man and use ad hominem. You are one said confused ethnic chauvanist. But I can help you. Well at least I thought I could. You are demonstrating some psychosis now through your comments. Not really sure what is going on…

          1. @thewarlock

            I didn’t realize your EM residency was in Psychiatry? Or are you just a fraud masquerading as one?

            Anyway, its pretty evident what I’m saying. Rors/Hindu Jats are notoriously conservative people and I’ve never heard of a single man from these communities rape lower-caste women/White women/Brahmin women or just be in the news for raping a woman in general. I’m sure it occurs, but its never been a publicized case nor is it as prevalent as the rapes committed by men of non-Jat backgrounds. OTOH, I’ve seen plenty of Gujju-looking men be in the news for raping women of all stripes. It is also FAR more likely that non-Jat men are raping women, just given the miniscule population of Jats in India and their disdain for women of other communities, combined with their ultra orthodox practices that treat marriage as a sacred institution. Given that some of the comments above specifically target Jats as being notoriously rape-y moreso than other communities, I’d love to see a single well-documented case of a West Asian-looking Jat raping a woman of any background in the Indian media. After all, this should be easy to find given their propensity to rape women. And why single out Jats alone? Are they not your Brown brethren who are interchangeable with other Gujarati men? Or is that only true when you aspire to look West Eurasian for some weird reason? Oh that’s right, you are a stupid maniac who is talking BS all the damn time. #GandhiwastheOGrapist

  16. Lol if you weren’t so consistent with complimenting Razib, I think he would have banned you by now

    1. @thewarlock

      Just like you were banned from Anthroscape? Nice track record. I dont know many Gujjus with a hard-on for associating with rapey Jats, but then again, there is always a crazy one in every community. I dont have an issue with it BTW, Jats are Gujjus with character, and lighter dicks. BTW, its rich that the crazy dumbass that other-izes Jats and “Punjabis” for being rapey subsequently claims that they are no different from Gujaratis in appearance when it comes to racial dynamics. What is even the point of your circular reasoning? Are you that dense? Please dont kill any patients on the floor. May god have mercy on your patients. #PinkPigletDicks

  17. Gandhi was a rapist. Some men from all cultures rape. Some cultures do a better job of punishing it. Some do a better of job of educating people to not do it.

    The NW and North are known hotbeds of rapey behavior in India. And landed groups are known to be among the worst offenders along with migrants. Gujarati looking? Jatt looking? What are you going on about? Are you confused? My whole point is that there is overlap between Northern upper caste non birdari S Asian groups and bardari groups with the latter having a slightly west shifted cline.

    You are just confused man. And there are plenty of Birdari rapists in the UK. Look up the Pak rape gangs. Most are from birdari groups. And yes they range from pan subcontinent looking to West Asia, with median looking northern S Asian with a slight shift west compared to non birdari upper caste Northern South Asians.

    Shocker because that’ exactly what I’ve been saying.

    1. @thewarlock

      Show me a single well-publicized example of a West-Asian looking Ror raping a woman of any background, particularly the Dalits and others highlighted in this post. Those Pakistanis you speak of are not Rors, nor do they look like Rors. I only speak for my community. I’m glad you agree that Gandhi was an OG rapist who skirted punishment. But the larger point I’m making is, while there might be rapists in the Ror community that I am unaware of (just owing to probability) they aren’t exactly infamous for being rapists unlike other groups of South Asians. In fact, the incidence of rape among Rors/perpetrated by Rors on other castes is so low that I’ve never seen it discussed in the media, either in the West or in India, a country that is notorious for sensationalizing such titillating and taboo topics.

      In contrast, the publicized cases I’ve seen in the media predominantly show Gujju Vania-looking men doing all the raping. They might or might not be Gujju, but the fact remains, large masses of lower and middle caste South Asians look the same owing to sharing admixture patterns. This is the accurate, sane view of the reality on the ground. Mostly Indios and Mestizos/Harnizos are implicated in these rapes. Castizos and Criollos are few and far between, to the point of being invisible. Thats what anyone can see/look up. Now lets look at your own circular BS insanity:

      If I use your insane reasoning, since according to you, Jats and other allied communities overlap with other South Asian communities to the point of looking identical, what is even the point of singling out Jats for being the worst violators? Caste-based distinctions fail to have any meaning when this insane reasoning is used. The best we can say using your model is that all South Asian communities have a rape problem. To debate and discuss frequencies of rape and to blame one “group” for being the most profligate doesnt make an iota of sense when using your dumb as f*ck overlap ideology. They are all Brown folks, so labeling them doesnt make any sense. A Jat “landed” rapist is a Gujarati Patidar rapist of another name. A rose by any other name is still a rose. They look the same, all brown folks that are part of the Brown monolith that is typified by Gujarat. Who’s the crazy one? #Dhoklarapists

  18. You ramblings are become more and more incomprehensible. You sound like you are in some sort of manic episode. Please seek help bud.

    Reality is reality. Haryana Jats, as a whole, look more like non birdari upper caste Northern S Asians than you are comfortable with and they are simultaneously known,along with several other landed groups, for numerous caste atrocities, including rape of lower caste women.

    And most Indian men are harnizos and mestizos, including a good chunk of Jats lmfao. Actually maybe even most are harnizo looking in Haryana, seeing agitation pics.

    Please seek some help tho. You sound like you really need it.

    Jai Shree Ameen
    May the Skyfather bless you and keep you
    May the Jungle father give you strength
    May the river mother save your wretched soul to guide you towards Moksha

    1. In as many words, what was essentially said is: you’re part of the same ethnic background as the rapist(s) you other-ize as being from a distinct community/ethnicity. Take a look in the mirror sometime. Or just visit a BAPS temple: Familiar faces galore, eerily similar to many notorious rapists implicated in rapes publicized by the Indian media in years past. Its like blaming White Latino men (and the White LatAm community) for raping Black women (assuming there was a spate of such rapes), when in reality the men involved in perpetrating these rapes look like Mestizos and Indios and simply identify as White. George Zimmerman comes to mind. This doesnt make them White, just like these Gujju-vania looking Mestizo and Harnizo rapists dont become Jats just because they changed their surname and now identify as one.

      Sanskritization is to blame for this nonsense, and idiots and crazies like you lap it up like naive dogs. You’re hell-bent on sticking to your delusional world views, so may god help you. I can only hope your dogmatic embrace of such stupid views doesn’t extend to your medical practice. Otherwise, we have malpractice in your future. And I don’t mean Gandhi-esque rape-y tendencies towards White women, but far worse: killing patients: “Jayant Mukundray Patel (born 10 April 1950, is an Indian-born American surgeon who was accused of gross negligence whilst working at Bundaberg Base Hospital in Queensland, Australia. Deaths of some of Patel’s patients led to widespread publicity in 2005. In June 2010, he was convicted of three counts of manslaughter and one case of grievous bodily harm, and sentenced to seven years’ imprisonment.”

      *Shudders* I’d hate to be right. Lets hope I’m wrong, for once. #JaiShreeAmeen.

      1. At first I think your eccentricity was amusing. Now it’s causing me grave concern. Please seek some help man.

        Don’t go shoot up a Church or BAPs temple or whatever else you hate bro. We are here for you. If you email me, I can send over to some good hotlines man. I don’t want to engage further. You’ve embarrassed yourself enough already. I’ll do you a favor and stop calling out your utter nonsense. I now know it comes from a place of deep deep sickness and likely pain and trauma. Get well bro.

        1. They call him “Dr. Death”


          Could be your dad, Doctor Saab. And that shooting analogy was amusing, nice bit of projection. Its good to get some catharsis online, so that you don’t harm your patients like Dr. Death here. Nice Gujju vania representation, BTW. Really great role model for you I bet. And deep sickness and pain? Not any more sick than the troll banned from a White supremacist website with tons of toxic, hate-filled people, where you have thousands of posts to your name. You even managed to get yourself banned there. One can only imagine the unstable nature of your mind and your many complexities.

          In fact, you fit the description of most school and church shooters to a “T”: a frustrated, delusional loser with a history of engaging with racial supremacists and incels, who then continues his racial diatribes on places across the web, only to conclude his infamous journey with the death of innocent people. In your case, I fear your hate of West Eurasian people and the Chinese and Jats and others will contribute to your downfall and imprisonment. Perhaps I should alert the FBI to your past and present activities, seeing as you’re a medical resident. We can avoid many calamities and save innocent lives.

          And good job giving up the debate. Your proclivity to write inane nonsense is a good tell — you dont have anything to offer other than trolling. Keep up the embarrassing behavior though, we don’t want you turning out like Dr. Death. #JaiShreeKrishna

    2. Here is a playlist of Haryanvi Jaat rap songs…


      here are BAPS gujjus inaugurating a new temple in Dubai, UAE


      There is a clear difference on average , but both are Indic looking people with a wide range of looks within the groups and significant overlap.

      I don’t really understand what APthk vs theWarlock argument is tbh. Just the degree of difference ?

      1. Lol you literally are making the point I have been trying to make. The averages are diff but overlap is significant and way more than with Persians or Georgians or whatever the fuck he goes on about. You just restated my argument.

        I never said typical Gujus on average look like Jats or the other way around but their ranges overlap more than say West asian peoples and Jats by a long shot. Reread my numerical abstraction I think in the open thread. It will clarify it

        “My statements do not contradict. You are confused or just pretending to be so you don’t have to engage. Let me simplify it for you. Because you aren’t getting the nuance. Let’s say there is a phenotype scale. 0 is W Eurasian. 100 is east Eurasian.

        Persians will be say range from 0-25.

        Haryana Jats can range from 20-50.

        Sikh Jats 25-55

        N Indian Brahmins range from 30-60.

        Rajputs 35-70.

        Vaishya 40-75.

        Now you see how Jats can be the most West shifted yet still share more overlap with Northern non birdari upper caste S Asians than with Persians.

        Does your mind now process the point I am making?”

        Here you go actually^

        1. @Razib

          Sunny Leone is a Sikh vania/merchant caste, with admixed origins, and not a Jatt at all. She is also a Harnizo. She doesn’t represent Jatts. And this isn’t because of her nether regions, just FYI lol, but because of her face/race. Kareena Kapoor is more representative despite being a Khatri, as she is a Criollo.

          1. @Razib

            LOL. Not that I know of. But IDK if you read my previous post, Sensual Jane is a good representation of Jatt women, at least according to the ones I’ve seen in the flesh. She easily passes as a Jatt. I can show you pictures of Ror/Jatt women that I have with me, just to give you an idea, of course they aren’t the NSFW kind. Here is one for an example: https://imgur.com/a/fd3ZGe3

          1. @thewarlock

            I can’t believe I’m writing this considering its pRon, but Ava Addams passes as Jatt/Ror, no questions asked. In fact, people wouldn’t believe her if she claimed to be a foreigner or a”firangi.” Tori Black could never pass. OTOH, Priya Rai should be quite familar to you. Made her name as one of the first Gujju pRonstars more than a decade ago. Can’t say I ever liked her work. The face was too distracting. Looks mestizo 😉

      1. BTW, though Sunny Leone is not a Jatt, and can never pass as one either, her husband Daniel Weber easily passes as a Ror/Hindu Jatt. In fact, I’ve seen a doppelganger of his in the Jatt community before. He’s Ashkenazi, so fits with the trend of Ashkenazim passing as Jatts in certain cases. Goldblum is another famous example. #Lifefindsaway

    1. I think you should have an annual Brownpundits Members Awards article. I think I just might qualify for a few lol

        1. Arjuna is cool. Hanuman would be the coolest from the major myths. But my favorite is def Shiva. Surprises me you haven’t called out logical fallacies that we’ve all witnessed in the discussions tonight. Normally you do that. Too entertained I see lol

          I need to follow Twain’s advice on stupid people a little more. I will say though, Indthings mostly just rational. He occasionally threw in an insult or two. But some of the back and forths actually amounted to a debate. Tonight was something else lol

  19. A thread of events by a Mehgnad of newslaundry about Hathras
    1. Dalit woman is gang-raped by Thakur men; she dies
    2. Police refuse to accept its a rape
    3. Police burn woman’s body in dead of night against Hindu customs without consent of family
    4. Media stopped from talking to family or villagers
    5. Video emerge of DM threatening family to change statement
    6. Village in lockdown
    7. Elected Politicians roughed up when they tried to go towards sight
    8. Highways blocked to prevent others joining
    9. Section 144 applied – reason given Covid spread
    10. A rally by Thakur men is allowed to take place despite 144
    11. Private Call between journalist and brother of victim recorded and handed over to OpIndia.

    Even by the Brazen standards of UP government and Police this is exceptionally low

    1. @Gaurav ,it’s very sad how the case has turned up and even more sad is the politics around it but since you are providing live feed here just want to let you know that there are some inconsistencies like mention of rape were 7 days after the incident,gang rape after that, the initial testimonies of victim(available on internet) as well as FIR mentioned only beatings and that too by one guy (this was actually covered by Amar Ujala , hathras edition on 15th September and it mentioned only beating as charges and there was only one accused https://www.amarujala.com/uttar-pradesh/hathras/attempt-to-murder-by-strungling-police-finding-alleged-hathras-news-ali2438143167 . Incidentally from what i have been told , the station officer , D K Verma is a dalit too).

      As for not letting the politicians, they probably didn’t want riots like saharanpur if they would have let groups like bhim army enter the village.

      However, the police cremating the body 1 day after post-mortem was indeed suspicious.

      Btw, did the private call between victim’s brother and a journalist reveal something?

  20. .LOL. Not that I know of. But IDK if you read my previous post, Sensual Jane is a good representation of Jatt women, at least according to the ones I’ve seen in the flesh. She easily passes as a Jatt. I can show you pictures of Ror/Jatt women that I have with me, just to give you an idea, of course they aren’t the NSFW kind. Here is one for an example: https://imgur.com/a/fd3ZGe3

    that woman gave me a roma vibe, so that would make sense.

    ‘angel dark’ is a roma porn star from slovakia. the ‘dark’ must be for her nether regions from what i have heard. also, i hear though she does ‘interracial’ so idk. it’s all complicated

    1. @Razib

      That makes some sense/is possible I reckon. Although I thought Roma had more Euro ancestry, and depending on the Roma, they are mostly West Eurasian in the European sense (i.e Iberian Romas are more or less fully West Eurasian/European, and Slavic Romas have ancestral variation among them, but none I’ve seen look fully like Jats. They tend to have a hybrid phenotype in-between West Asians and Euros)

      But which woman are you referring to, Sensual Jane, or the one pictured, or perhaps both? Either way, both pass as Jatt/Rors. Incidentally, they also pass in Iran and in countries bordering Iran. I suppose you could say many Iranians and West Asians look like the Roma/Gypsies or give off similar vibes as well. Incidentally, one of the main perpetrators of the Armenian genocide was a man of Roma descent, who held the most important political position in Turkey at the time. He easily passed as Turkish.

    1. @Razib

      Are you referring to dark vaginas? LOL. Either way, Ava is of French and British descent. And Like I said earlier, genitals can be of any color. Do you think she also gives off Roma vibes? I also wanted to ask, do you think Sensual Jane has a Romani-esque appearance? She is Romanian as far as I know, but that means she is European/closer to fully West Eurasian. Doesnt have any Roma ancesty AFAIK.

    1. @Razib

      Touche 😉 Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and all that.

      BTW, speaking of darker labias, the Indian actress in this very *cringe* commercial financed by Marwaris (making it all the more ironic) is of a Hindu Jat/Ror background and easily passes as a Criollo as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i172liZ8Rk4

      Don’t ask me why I know about this commercial. It makes me weep for the future of India. #Darklabiasmatter #Indianmenmustlovedarkp*ssies

    2. WIKI: “The Battle Axe culture is believed to have brought Indo-European languages and Indo-European culture to southern Scandinavia. The fusion of the Battle Axe culture with the native agricultural and hunter-gatherer cultures of the region spawned the Nordic Bronze Age, which is considered the ancestral civilization of the Germanic peoples.[8]”

      >>>> I will write with more details but very briefly for now:

      These guys were I2A Dinaric people who brought Serbian language, mentioned above as ‘Indo-European’ language. I already mentioned that all skeletons on British Isles 5500-2500 BC were I2A until R1b came. There are now about 3% of I2A on th north of Scotland. Serbian language was a source of Proto-Germanic languages from which English language later originated, too. All these nicely fits in our language discussions and the origins of Sanskrit. Stay tuned.

      1. An interesting work was published in Geneva in 1976 by Patrick Louth and entitled ‘La civilization of Germains and Vikings’. On page 11, the writer states:

        “Around 2000 BC, the Scandinavian area reached another wave of people who came from the DANUBE PLAINS. These conquerors brought with them the custom of individually burying the dead in whose graves there are bronze battle axes and bell-shaped vessels, decorated with a border… Who were these people? Not only does what happened here between 2500 and 400 BC remain completely unknown to us linguistically, but it is still impossible for us to determine the causes of the consonant mutations from which the primitive Germanic language originated.”

        We see three things in the text above:

        1) The Scandinavian area was inhabited by people who arrived there from the DANUBE PLAINS
        2) Impossibility of the most elementary solution in relation to linguistic problems and the language of that ‘mysterious people’
        3) The later appearance of the original Germanic language found by consonant mutations in the territory inhabited by the same ‘mysterious people’. Jozef Kostrzewski, a Polish scientist, claims that based on archaeological findings he can conclude that from 2000 BC until his days there were no major ethnological changes in the entire area around the Baltic Sea.

  21. This is an extraordinarily pre-conceived sort of discussion. It led me to consult Wikapedia. Here is the link.
    Punjab is only about average in rape. Who are all those high numbers of guys raping away in Kerala, Madhya Pradesh, Chattisgarh, Uttarkhand, Himachal, Assam and Meghalaya? Would readers conclude that it must be Brahmins because there are no Jats there? Do posters on Brown Pundits come to castey conclusions out of habit: Did the author of the article research the identity of Pakistani rapists, particulary Punjabi ones. How many Pathans, Syeds, etc in them? How many Mirpuris, etc?

    1. There are many communities who commit these atrocities. Landed castes are just more notorious and those vary state to state.

    2. no one said one group exclusively does it. But someone did imply a certain group essentially never does it because they know of no cases and that it is the most west eurasian women who are victims mostly and the poor west eurasian men get unfairly blamed for the work of mestizos 😉

      If that sounds like mumbo jumbo, it is meant tl.be 😉

      All of India has rape issues. Within the caste angle, it is often the worst among landed castes who have more free reign to exploit low castes in rural areas where panchayats and old school society favor them most.

    1. @Razib

      Christine Kludjian passes as a Ror/Hindu Jatt with ease: https://youtu.be/f2XsSxGv4SQ?t=70

      She’s the woman being interviewed in the video above.

      She’s of Armenian descent, so fits in within the range of Jat phenotypes, which extend from Iran to Turkey, along with parts of Eastern Europe.

      Also, it turns out there is quite a well-reasoned explanation for why a certain minority of men and women who claim to be Jat look like Harnizos and Castizos as opposed to Criollos, which make up the bulk of the Hindu Jat phenotypes.

      There was a study conducted recently by a woman from Queen’s University in Rural Haryana, where she outlines how some poor and rather old men from certain villages in the state, who have Jat ancestry, marry women of different castes, including Dalits and others, when they are unable to procure a Jat bride for themselves, owing to their finances and advanced age.

      Here is the link: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/modern-asian-studies/article/caste-and-crossregion-marriages-in-haryana-india-experience-of-dalit-crossregion-brides-in-jat-households/F4834D13DBC0F0AC811CE852B842EE0C/core-reader#

      Although it is clear from the study that this practice is very rarefied, owing to the repercussions (social ostracization and marginalization) what happens is that the progeny of such mixed marriages often continue identifying as Jats when in reality, they are no longer a part of the Jat/Ror community. This explains why a minority of those who claim to be Jat look like Harnizos and Castizos. I will expand upon their visibility in online dating sites/other forums below. Also, as the article states, many of these Dalit and middle and lower caste women that marry these older Jat men, along with their mixed progeny, often try to construct new identities for themselves in order to try to be accepted by the Jat community. They obviously dont succeed, and as the article goes on to mention, such individuals are considered pariahs in the community and are outcasted by the other Jats, who have continued to maintain endogamy and their ancestral lineage/Jatt identity.

      Of course, there are also many people of other castes who simply change their surname and identify as Jat due to Sanskritization, and when you combine this group of people with the aforementioned progeny of mixed marriages, you end with a sizable minority of people who simply claim to be Ror/Jat, when in reality, they are no longer a part of the Ror/Jat community due to being mixed/lying about their origins/all of the aforementioned. That explains the visible minority of outliers who claim to be a part of the Ror/Jat community, that look like Harnizos and Castizos, as opposed to Criollos, which is the status quo/default as far as Jat phenotypes are concerned.

      Going back to their increased visibility on dating sites and other online forums, the explanation above also illustrates why many of these mixed individuals and Sanskritized individuals are so socially active/in the spotlight/found online; they are unable to find a suitable groom and/or bride for themselves in the Jat community due to their mixed origins, so they must look online in order to find someone that shares their autosomal makeup/mixed origins/false identity. Many of these mixed individuals are also studying/working/living abroad, while unaccompanied/without any family living with them, which is unheard of in the Jat community, especially if it involves females.

      Most Ror/Jat women would never dream of posting their picture online, especially on a matrimony or dating website, not only because the community is so conservative, but also because it is then ripe for vandalism and all sorts of perverse manipulation by the other folks that frequent these websites. I’ve actually never seen or heard of Rors/Jatts looking for love/grooms/brides/dating/marriage online. Its all done in person/through a marriage bureau/intermediary. These people value their privacy immensely, take it from someone who actually belongs to the community. I hope that gave people further insight into why a sizable minority of those who claim to be Ror/Jatt look so different from the majority of actual Jats that look like West Asians/Slavs and Caucasians. Sanskritization and mixed marriages are the culprit. Makes perfect sense too, both phenotypically and genetically.

        1. your tolerance for the new Mr. K is impressive. Now I know why it took you so long to ban the old one ;). Sometimes I wish I also lived in a post fact world.

        2. @Razib

          lol. What can I say, the terms are definitely antiquated, but they are certainly less noxious than using the loaded terms typically used to describe these people and their autosomal makeup. Also, its uncanny how they accurately map to the South Asian phenotypic and racial diversity, its like Latin America is South Asia 2.0. Our brother from another mother (or father… haha).

          The only term that doesnt have a parallel in the South Asian context is peninsulares… but that was more of a social status thing and had little to do with ancestry. In that sense, there are no peninsulares that exist for our communities. They all got subsumed into our biradris when they had a mass migration to the region. I guess for us, one could say that the Criollos are the peninsulares.

          Your Chorizo pictures made me hungry for that Starbucks sammie with Chorizo sausage. I think its a breakfast menu item? Used to eat that stuff wayy to much in college. Reminds me, I better go get some Wendy’s breakfast — they have the best biscuits and seasoned potato wedges. I have a love affair with potato wedges, ever since my first experience with them at an Amish grocery store. They make life worth living.

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