On Friday 18 September, Sahil Wakode, a second-year BTech student in IIT Bombay’s energy science department, was caught with his phone in a midterm; the institute says he had uploaded the question paper to ChatGPT. By evening he was found dead in his hostel room. He was Dalit, from Yavatmal, and the third IIT Bombay student to die by suicide this year.
The accounts split. The institute says the invigilator, Prof Suryanarayana Doolla, followed Senate-approved procedure, that no disciplinary action was begun, and that the instructor and head of department counselled the boy and assured him his career would not suffer. Students and the family say he was threatened with suspension, and the father’s police complaint alleges three months of casteist remarks. An FIR now names Doolla and other senior officials for abetment of suicide and under the SC/ST Act, whose Section 18A lets police register the FIR without a preliminary enquiry. The Faculty Forum has expressed solidarity with him. About 700 students blocked the main gate.
Take IIT Bombay’s own version at face value: procedure was followed, counsel was given, assurance was offered, and hours later the student was dead. That sequence settles nothing about cause; the Crime Branch must establish what was actually said in that hall. Either the assurance was never given, or it was given and did not land.
Students caste information is not available to any faculty or admin folks within IITs. I have seen far too many cynical attempts using the SC/ST act, even in the face of great tragedy, to make hay while the sun shines. The cynic in me feels something similar was attempted here.
The faculty forum has stood behind the professor , which is a sign he did not do anything out of line as far is process is concerned. Also relieved that the matter has been transferred to the crime branch and that a senior officer will probe the matter. Lower level police cannot be trusted in these matters.
presumably you have intimate knowledge on the IITs?
Yes I was a professor at IIT Bombay.
Sooner than later, the weaponisation of this act needs to be reviewed. A small but vocal ‘savarna’ constituency has already coalesced arround youtouber, ajit Bharathi.
The backlash from this group made central government go slow on ugc equity rule.
Reports said that bjp lost a municipality election in rajastan recently to karni groups opposed to this law.
Ironically obcs are most affected with this SC-ST atrocities act, as they interact with dalits most in villages. It is said that 90% of the cases don’t stand.
Congress in its new woke avatar has pushed for a similar law called Rohit vemula act, in states ruled by it.
I guess what is an upside is that India is able to defuse societal tensions through law, order and justice. it’s quite an achievement, very different to China
This SC/ST act is just one among the many acts that assign guilt before one is proven innocent
Unlike most of the others there are very clear cases where it can be applied and cant. Many SC/STs and non SC/STs dont seem to know where it can be done so and hence seek to apply it every time something untoward happens. Had this case not blown up, the police may not have applied this act since it can only be applied if someone has publicly abused SC/ST people.
If this act get reviewed and you add penalization for launching fake cases for instance, the same would have to be applied to all other acts as well even things like PMLA or many anti conversion laws which I dont think the current govt wants to do.
//It is said that 90% of the cases don’t stand//
40% of the cases actually do stand, many end in acquittal which does not necessarily mean that the cases lack merit.
Sorry 33% of cases have resulted in conviction under sc/st act overall.
For pmla, out of 2396 cases filed only 86 resulted in an fir.
Under this act, a non-bailable arrest warrant can be directly issued plus FIR filed without even a preliminary investigation. Accusation is sufficient. Even stringent anti-corruption laws don’t allow FIR registration without a preliminary investigation.
The FIR is a goldmine for the accuser. They can harass using the FIR and get handsome compensation. Its become standard practise. We are a banana republic in many ways.
Also is it true that the complainant gets a lakh rupees from government just for getting a case registered ?
I dotn know but i highly doubt this. Sounds completely illegal. But kickbacks across the board are routine because the FIR is the starting point for extortion. No investigation required. Just file FIR. So the cops are first in line to benefit followed by everyone else.
Yes — “The District Magistrate or the Sub Divisional Magistrate or any other Executive Magistrate
shall make arrangements for providing immediate relief in cash or in kind or both to the victims of
atrocity, their family members and dependents according to the scale as in the schedule
annexed to these Rules (Annexure-I read with Annexure-II). Such immediate relief shall also
include food, water, clothing, shelter, medical aid, transport facilities and other essential items
necessary for human beings.”
Reference — See Rule 12 (4) on Page 7. https://tribal.nic.in/downloads/acts-and-rules/SCSTpoaact1995.pdf
The quantum of pre-trial compensation is up to 75% of total allowed. The compensation can vary based on type of accusation. These rules are from 1995 http://esomsa.hp.gov.in/sites/default/files/THE%20SCHEDULED%20CASTES%20AND%20SCHEDULED%20TRIBES%20%28PREVENTION%20OF%20ATROCITIES%29%20RULES%2C%201995-85377713.pdf
Not sure about the latest quantum.
It is astonishing that BJP has allowed the establishment to paint it as anti-GC and there are GC folks willingly or unwillingly going along with this canard.
WOW! I didnt know this…this is ridiculous…BJP has been greater mandal maniacs than the Cong..
These rules are from 1995 not from 2018 when bjp had to rollback the mischief created by SC.
“BJP had to rollback the mischief created by SC”
Can you please explain this. My understanding was that SC actually allowed for anticipatory bail under the SC/St act. Protests erupted and the govt brought in amendments in 2018 removing provision for anticipatory bail. The govt also removed any need for a preliminary enquiry. This means the govt has basically said that an accusation is enough to someone behind bars without any due process.
My understanding was that the BJP undid what was a fair provision introduced by the SC
Another angle is to investigate the actual death. I have seen reports that this kid had an AIR of 614, if true it is unlikely a case of academic mismatch.
Sounds unusual. This is a decent rank and the kid would have gotten a much better department than energy sciences. This apart, i have see even AIR 100 rank kids cheat 🙂
I have been repeating this like a parrot for ten years now. These institutions are not worth children’s lives. There are enough good options available for everyone. The pressure parents put on their own kids is criminal..No one listens 🙁
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/sahil-wakode-who-is-professor-suryanarayana-doolla-iit-bombay-professor-at-centre-of-student-suicide-row-12074720?pfrom=home-ndtv_topscroll
The accused professor has a stellar record..he was even dean of student affairs..
And an obc
Seems off. That rank, that branch, the SC/ST case. Highly unlikely.
Admin, one of my comments is flagged for approval. It has quotes and references official documents with respect to compensation for sc/st atrocities.
Done .. I think the spam filters pick up multiple link comments but all sorted now .. thanks for flagging
Was the iPhone 16 crop out accidental? If you’re going to pontificate on caste, might as well have the complete picture.
?
https://x.com/ambedkariteIND/status/2101984631465836972
Ambedkarites are threatening anyone who talks about the student cheating with SC/ST Act. I want to see the mental gymnastics Calvin performs to defend such abuses of the legal system.
defaming the dead isn’t a great tactic..
something that drives someone to suicide is an institutional failure
When the living are losing careers over such facts they will become points of discussion no matter what methods you utilize to suppress such facts. Osama bin laden remains a terrorist despite being dead and this student will have the fact of taking their phone into the exam hall to use ChatGPT as an act attached to their record.
Personally, I believe that this student didn’t need to go through the trouble of committing such actions like cheating when they could’ve studied for a week or two and made it. Even in the IITs getting through basic coursework isn’t as hard as to requiring cheating to get through.
Comparing a student & OBL is a stretch
The principle stands is the important point.
You are right here. Personally, I believe that the Institute panicked and released a statement linking his death to cheating.
This was a mistake. They should have called in the police and explained the matter, not made social media posts.
The world has changed, these institutions cannot run PR with profs doing part time jobs on a rota.
One person on twitter does not represent thr whole spectrum of ambedkarites any more than Swatantra Bharadwaj represents the hindu right.
At any rate, there is no mental gymnastics necessary here. Many laws are written in a way that allows mobs to impose their will. The Ambedkarites use the SC/ST act while others use the excuse of hurt sentiments and twitter itself has been a platform where people have beem doxxed, and harassed in the real world, one incident involving jaipur dialogue’s happened very recently.
Prior to this, many other have been harassed under the umbrella of hurt sentiments, it is something I have accepted as a part of the culture of thst platform, Ambedkarites are just following the steps laid down by others, as Indian jurisprudence allows them to
It is sad but thst is the kanoon of this country as Nirmala Sitharaman says.
At any rate the FIR will stand only if someone explicitly links his suicide to any lack of capability owing to caste, as has been established by numerois court judgements. It is not difficult to support the professor without tarnishing the deceased.
I’d have been rather happy if the Ambedkarites had utilized the Indian jurisprudence to police issues regarding discrimination and that had been the limits of this law. But the fact the SC/ST Act can force another person into jail without the need for solid proof means it is utilized like hammer for every inconvenience the community encounters at large.
Its effects are now seen on some of the top level institutions of the country where a director and OBC professor have had to resign from their positions due to no error of their own based on spurious charges which no student present in the class room has confirmed.
Regardless, you will continue to believe that true justice is jailing innocents and false accusations go unpunished because that is how law is supposed to work. Personally, I find the hurt sentiments that other communities utilize to destroy freedom of expression just as disgusting and harmful to our social fabric. But those are just evidence of whataboutery rather than an argument for or against this issue.
// Personally, I find the hurt sentiments that other communities utilize to destroy freedom of expression just as disgusting and harmful to our social fabric. But those are just evidence of whataboutery rather than an argument for or against this issue.//
Personally I have never seen the same amount of concern to victims of hurt sentiments based accusation than I have to possibility of people being victimized by SC/ST act. Unlike the average SC/ST person who only has the ignorance of this law to pull a fast one, most people who champion hurt sentiments actually have the social and cultural power to make good on their threats.
//I’d have been rather happy if the Ambedkarites had utilized the Indian jurisprudence to police issues regarding discrimination and that had been the limits of this law. But the fact the SC/ST Act can force another person into jail without the need for solid proof means it is utilized like hammer for every inconvenience the community encounters at large. //
How do you know they dont?
Most Ambedkarites, unlike a regular SC/ST person not only know that the law needs intent to be applied, as seen with the tweet you shared specifically threatening those who say untoward things about the deceased, but also generally want atrocities to end and see this as a tool not a money making machine.
While some people may abuse it, the solution to this is to spread awareness about when the law can be applied and when it cant, as well as penalize knowingly false cases.
The SC/ST act needs proven intent of casteism before it can be applied, most SC/ST people if they go to the police dont have the social or cultural power to push the for registration a case they know is fake, that is why many of the anecdotes about the fake cases shared involve someone threatening someone privately taking advantage of the ignorance of this law, even in circles that speak against it all the time.
//Its effects are now seen on some of the top level institutions of the country where a director and OBC professor have had to resign from their positions due to no error of their own based on spurious charges which no student present in the class room has confirmed.//
Except the professor in question has been made to resign due to his alleged threats to the deceased, had he been charged under abatement to suicide only he would also be made to resign due to the sensitive matter of this case.
I dont know why you are linking the SC/ST act to the directors resignation, he has not been charged, nor was there a demand to do so. He has also rescinded his resignation as well. I dont know why you are wrongly linking this to your crusade against the SC/ST act.
what kind of AI abetted gaslighting is this? Even by your own admission, only ~1/3 rd of the cases in SC/ST act are convicted but the Act requires an arrest in 100% of the cases. Anyone with passing acquaintance of rural hinterland knows that the threat of this law is wielded freely. Yet here you use words like social capital to say paint interested parties as being too innocent. We have quite a few clips by the MP Chandrasekhar Ravan openly threatening police officers that he will put SC/ST case on them when they were doing their duty.
The only other equally draconian law is the anti-dowry harassment one where mere accusation triggers an automatic arrest. Unsurprisingly this law only impacts Hindu men by definition and the first one impacts GC + OBC men in practice.
The anti conversion laws do not require automatic arrest before investigation.
It does not matter to him. He truly believes that every GC+OBC deserves to be sacrificed at the alter of the SC/ST Act for the sin of voting for the BJP. Jailing innocents without any proof of their crime is the standard of justice he will keep for his enemies while if this law was ever turned against his own community he would turn 180 degrees in his views instantly.
I dont hate people for their voting choices, I am not the one whose politics is animated by hatred of others .
The problem with your whole discourse about the SC/ST act is the below:
1. It immediately assume that the majority of SC/ST people are vindictive enough and Ambedkarites in particular have nothing better to do than to trap innocent upper castes rather than use this law against out and out casteists
The simple truth is that this law was made not to punish upper castes or obcs but to protect SC/ST people from casteism, given that even.minor infractions like sporting a moustache can lead to violence this law unfortunately has to presume guilt before innocence. It is not anti upper caste in intent whatsoever.
2. Fake cases invalidate this law or that yhe majoroty are fake.
There is no proof that the majority of cases filed are fake. An acquittal is not proof of a fake case, many that do go trial at least as far as the courts are concerned are correct.
If some individuals try to use this law for making money by threatening, the answer to this is to spread awareness about when and where this can be applied, private conversations cant be applied under the SC/ST act. If anyone threatens you with this act based on a private conversation and the police is also colluding, use the avenues available to you by going to the high court or even complaining to supervising officers of the police. This is a law of this country that until acts of violence towards SC/ST go down will not go away.
Complaining about this and trying to delegetimize it based on threats made based on private conversations will not change this reality. If you want to do something either spread awareness or work to reduce caste based conflict.
Dont you dare accuse me of hating any group of people for their political choices. The ambedkarktes and SC/ST in general are not so vindictive that they will use this law as an instrument for misuse, this much closer to hatred than any of my defenses where I have not in any way implied that most upper castes deserve to be charged under this law, just that fake cases dont delegetimize the law itself.
//if this law was ever turned against his own community he would turn 180 degrees in his views instantly.//
Except this law has been used by hindutva organization’s of all people against pastors as seen below.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/pastor-held-for-illegal-conversion-of-200-people/articleshow/122844525.cms
There are other cases as well, from across India, but I have not used these incidents thst may very well be fake to delegetimizr this law or act as if because it is being used by hindutva organization’s it wss made to do that itself. Despite misuses this law has a place and use and I dont think some people using it for getting an immediate arrest as seen above or using its threat to get a payout delegetimize it or make it anti anyone instead of just being pro SC/ST.
33% of cases result in conviction, it does not mean the remaining cases are fake. An acquittal due to lack of proof does not mean a fake case.
The rural hinterlands are bastions of casteism and all kinds of traditionalism in some areas, people from marginalised communities are still attacked for sporting moustaches, you can maybe say that in urban areas this act might not be needed but acting like the rural areas of our country dont need a deterrent is wrong.
And so what if chandrashekahr ravan has threatened people with this act, has he followed through? The thing that you dont seem to ve aware of is that the courts have put very strict guidelines on when this can be used.
You need a public instance of casteism to apply this act not just someones say so. Chandrashekhar ravan himself cannot just willy-nilly apply this act to people he does not like until they show castesit behaviour publicly. What to say of many regular individuals who would be under more pressure to not pursue cases.
A few individuals taking advantage of the lack of knowledge on restrictions imposed by the court does not invalidate this law. As I mentioned 33% is very high for laws like this, this law is not going to go. If you want it gone either work on reducing the quantum of SC/ST violence or dont talk negatively in public towards people from those communities .
There are many safeguards put to ensure people cant use this law as a threat. Please read about them.
“It is not difficult to support the professor without tarnishing the deceased.”
+1
what happened to the student was a tragedy no doubt. However we should not understate the impact of what is being done to the professor, Director, IITB and wider notion of academic integrity and rigor become a statistic.
//wider notion of academic integrity and rigor become a statistic.//
Except the allegations and even the case are not due to the deceased being caught but because the accused allegedly insulted or threatened him. The actual cheating is not a factor in this case at all.
The fact is even without SC/ST act a case of abatement of suicide would be made, students would be protesting to demand measures to stop suicides and we would still be exactly where we are now.
The only thing is that this incident wont have been used to delegetimize the SC/ST act, nor would the possible culpability of the professor in being rude to student be brushed off so easily.
Anyways, this has nothing to do with academic integrity or rigor, the only thing is that professors would make sure that they interact with students either with witnesses or with a cctv in the vicinity which as it is should be done.
If the professor was involved in an abetment to suicide case the police would have to do a lot more rigorous of an investigation to jail the professor. But instead we’re doing an SC/ST Act case where the professor will have to defend something that never even happened. If the student had truly been threatened along the lines of his caste there would be witnesses coming out about it by now. The reality is the Act is being used to punish the professor through procedure where he is made to fight a grueling case where he is assumed to be guilty. At the end of the day if things go badly an innocent man will suffer through jail until he can prove himself to be right which a mockery of how justice is supposed to be.
You do realize the professor is not in jail right? Either the institute arranged a legal defense that has got him anticipatory bail or the police itself is not proceeding with an arrest.
All this talk about iits losing intellectual quality, obfuscates that other than the father no one from the institutes actually think this is a case of casteism, and the father is not in right mind and looking for the easiest person to blame.
What I want to know is how are you so certain that the incident did not happen? Can a person come forward in this state where everybody is supporting the professors and even using this incident to tarnish the deceased capability all over social media?
No one is treating the professor as guilty, he has not even been arrested yet and in all liklihood wont be arrested even in an abatement to suicide case, that being said it is the police job to do an investigation and the courts job to decide guilt or innocence.
Sometimes actually reading what someone else wrote can elucidate things about their writing. But regardless if you cannot differentiate between a hypothetical and a statement I don’t think you should be having this argument at all. I’ve stated that “At the end of the day if this goes badly an innocent man will suffer through jail”, now you tell me yourself with your grasp of English do you think I believe the professor is in jail.
😂😂😂 You think he actually reads what you write. He just skims and gets to keyboard mashing.
After about 40 messages he will realise the mistake and then will berate you for not pointing it out sooner.
I actually do read and respond accordingly.
If I make a mistake i see no shape in admitting it.
If you feel that is a failure it is probably why when your points are complete countered you have to rely on bad, unfunny jokes that dont land
In this conversation, OM is making a hypothetical that is not based in reality at all.The one argument of arrests being consequent to a FIR filing is not an absolute and there is much more discretion than his statements imply. The fact is there is no way thinga will go badly for the professor and if his case is anything to go by, it is doubtful if the police actually utilize the law in a way that brings out the full draconian potential.
Wirh archer, even OM also thought he was making comments about the background of the deceased ao hardly a case of only ne seeing things not there.
I think you also should read the entire conversation before chiming in.
Its great that you’ve finally admitted the law is draconian. Finally, I can rest and not have to argue on an issue even you agree with me on.
I always said this law is draconian.
But it is neither the only one( but definitely the only one you care about) and as far as stopping or preventing caste based atrocities is concerend is not at all delegetimized with fake cases whether it is your community or mine at the receiving end of these cases
Furthermore if police discretion is a factor in arrests happening, then it is in practise much less draconian than other laws of its kind.
This is something I have repeated multiple times in my counters, maybe read whst I write before asking me to do so or accuse me of having hatred towards anyone.
I chimed in because I felt an overwhelming sense of transposed Deja vu. Pattern recognition is one of those obsessive human traits.
I’m just being quite charitable saying that you skim. We’ve already discussed this law at length, most of your responses feel very hardwired knee jerk, nothing new, just rolling out the same chapati.
OM will eventually get fed up and you will move onto a new victim and start kneading dough.
//OM will eventually get fed up and you will move onto a new victim and start kneading dough.//
Please dont self victimise,no one is forcing you to respond.
//I chimed in because I felt an overwhelming sense of transposed Deja vu. Pattern recognition is one of those obsessive human traits.//
Your sense of deja vu is pointing you in the wrong direction. You should reread both this and our previous conversations to know how different these are.
//We’ve already discussed this law at length, most of your responses feel very hardwired knee jerk, nothing new, just rolling out the same chapati.//
None of the discussions brought out the fact that the police have discretion in doing arrests, the whole notion that this is a tool to harass falls apart if the predominantly non sc/st police dont do any arrests after an fir is filed.
None of the discussions brought out the fact that private conversations dont fall under sc/st under many court judgements, or have critiqued the lack of awareness among circles speaking about this law, as to when it can and cant be applied.
None of the discussions seem to be take into account the power structure in this country or even inquire about whehter SC/ST people or ambedkarites specifically are as vindictive as they are portrayed to be here.
My responses not only aren’t knee perk but actually counter many of the response others given that seem to be taken directly from right wing social media.
I assure you, all of response actually try to validate if what has been written is correct.
Are thinga going badly for the professor?
Is he in jail or in any possibility of being in jail?
Your hypothetical is completely divorced from reality as it is happening.
If the AI blurd has any truth to it your whole notion of the SC/ST act being a tool that leads to direct arrest is wrong as well. There is a lot more discretion in the hands of the police than you are willing to admit, and lot less vindictiveness or social power in the SC/ST than you grant them.
It isn’t divorced from reality when you yourself admit that the police is completely in their rights to jail him according to the law. The police can be as vindictive as their SOPs allow them to be and this law gives them a wide berth regarding those discretions. The fact that you seem so divorced from the reality of this law is more concerning than anything else.
The primary people who can use this law are among the weakest citizens in this country
If a person is rich and powerful enough get the police to do an immediate arrest then all laws even that you say are not draconian like abatement to suicide can be draconian.
The average SC/ST person does not have social or cultiral capital to get the police to arrest someone with an FIR only. Ignoring this basic reality and treating them as vindictive by default, is ignoring how things stand in Indiaj society even today.
The very basis for its draconian potential is that any normal person can file an fir and get someone they dont like areested, except they cant. If a police that is likely to be from the community that is ineligible to file a case under this law has discretion to decide whether to do an arrest or not, they are all but guaranteed to not because they may very well see this law as nothing but a tool for harassment on ‘their’ people. Other than the rich and famous who can bend all sorts of laws, very few can use this a tool for putting people in jail.
This is obviously not the case. There is a picture of the student posing with an iPhone 16, both parents are employed, govt servants.
That the prof is not arrested is because it is blatantly obvious to the police that the case has no merit and has national attention.
IIT students themselves will riot if he is arrested. There were large marches in support of him on campus.
Laws are most often misused by people aware of the law. The ‘weakest’ citizens will almost never use it.
It is amazing that you will keep trotting out the same arguments again and again, even with a clear counter example staring you in the face.
Consider the same situation in a low profile college in a small town. The police will happily ‘settle’ the case by getting the prof to hand over his life savings.
Truly the most transparent “Emperor has no clothes” discussion I’ve seen on this website. Somehow the most draconian laws are acceptable based on which group of people a law targets. I think we should let a 1000 flowers bloom, let the OBCs, GCs, and everyone have an SC/ST law of their own. Let’s all march into the jails together where no police officer has any limits on their discretions.
The only thing made very clear in this conversation:
1. Among all the draconian laws in this country, laws with worse conviction rate like PMLA or laws with very unclear provisions like anti conversion laws, only the SC/ST act is worthy of being condemned because apparently hindu men are the biggest victims of it( something you all have pointed out not me)
2. For many people, educated dalits are vindictive people who would rather trap innocent upper castes than use this law to put actual casteist behind bars. No data is given on how many of the cases filed under sc/st act are by amdekarites or if the SC/ST person who threatened your friend is an ambedkarite.
3. It is doubtful if the discussion on how draconian it is, actually cares about how it is practised or not, crazy that I am the one who had to bring up not only court judgement limiting when it can be used but that the police actually have discretion on how to use it.
4. It is also very apparent that it is easier to believe that hatred of hindu upper castes men is easier for people to believe than that someone is advocating on behalf of SC/ST. Many accusations thst we make are projections so wonder what this says about those accusing me of hatred.
Overall, if this law was used agisnt christisn missionaries to a large extent( as it no doubt will in the future), I wonder if your reactions would be the same. Mine definitely would.
//This is obviously not the case. There is a picture of the student posing with an iPhone 16, both parents are employed, govt servants.
Laws are most often misused by people aware of the law. The ‘weakest’ citizens will almost never use it//
Why ars you assuming that the parents of the deceased in this case is knowingly putting a false case? In all likelihod they may genuinely believe that the professor was casteist towards their deceased son.
This kind of default suspicion shown towards SC/ST is why I keep on coming back to this. Someone needs to point out that the SC/ST people in our country are not vindictive , even the successful and educated ones that may he ambedkarites
//Consider the same situation in a low profile college in a small town. The police will happily ‘settle’ the case by getting the prof to hand over his life savings//
The surprising thing is thst you are under the notion that a professor would be divested of his responsibilities in a lo2 profile colleges in a small town or that the police there will be any more sympathetic to a complaint by someone from an SC/ST case. The police are not only more likely to be feom communities that see this law as a nuisance but may not even file this case to begin with.
The truth is thst the police in India, at both the lower and higher levels are more likely to use their discretion to not do any arrests before an investigation than otherwise. Dont know what world you live in that you think the Indian police will stand with the weak and marginalised.
I hate myself for getting sucked into responding to such obvious BS.
You don’t read, you skim and make nuisance allegations.
a) I never said the parents filed a false case, in fact I have said the institute made a mistake publicly linking the death with cheating. I suspect that is at the heart of the case.
b) Police have reservations too. This idea that Police are some upper caste elitists is nonsense. Quite often they are interested in some side income regardless of caste. They do bend to political power.
c) We have already talked about cases in my personal knowledge where people who were caught stealing, turned around and put atrocity cases on their employers. One I know was settled by paying off the thief and the police.
No one is accusing people of vindictiveness. When you are in a Jam and there is a get out of jail free card, people tend to play it.
Why is the relative privilege of the parents relevant, espciallt when you assert that more educated people are more likely to misuse laws?
You and your friends should read about how the courts have regularly constrained when this law can be applied so this whole notion that anything you do to SC/ST can invite an FiR and jail has already been shown to be false.
So has the notion that an arreat will directly follow registering of an fir.
Now the last fig leaf is that the police are prone to file an fir to use this act for money.
If say a significant number of people did not think this act is being applied properly and know very well that if someone goes to a court obviously they would be the one suffering for trying to make money, the notion that the police are prone to file a case and arrest will also be undone.
Good thing Lokniti CSDS has actually provided us with this data.
Almost half of all policemen in India think the law is being misused regularly, only 26% of all people think that it is being misused less. Hardly the kind of people who will do an arrest on their own discretion.
Lets commission a survey of how often the police themselves will misuse the law for extortion.
The temerity to call police bribery a fig leaf when nearly everyone will have first/second hand information is breathtaking.
Liberals have this unfortunate habit of only washing their brains.
People have first hand experience of police taking bribes for making your passport or on a traffic signal.
The SC/ST act is a world apart from these laws, because it is not only widely seen as misused even in the force but also one law the courts have stepped in to prevent misuse for. There is too much visibility for a police office to use this law as an avenue to collect bribes from.
The problem with you is that you have no idea how the SC/ST act has been restricted and how much scrutiny there is towards its misuse. Ignoring this anf treating it like a traffic code violation is what is true smooth brain behavior.
Now that you have started insulting ‘liberals’ I suppose it is time to be subjected to another group of jokes thst dont land.
Hopefully no matter what you say to me, the next time a friend of yours is being threatened based on this act you will.use what I have written here to encourage them to go to the police and the court knowing full well the people there will be on your side.
Since the provision for immediate arrest is a concern for you the below should help. There is a lot more nuance to when someone can be directly arrested the police can choose to not immediately arrest someone
Looks like the situation and ones social capital have a much bigger inpact than you are willing to admit.
From copilot:
The misconception that an arrest happens by default under the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act is very common because of how stringent the law is.
While it is true that Parliament passed a 2018 Amendment (introducing Section 18A) to remove the requirement for a “preliminary inquiry” or “prior official approval” before registering an FIR or making an arrest, automatic arrest is still not a mandatory rule of law.
The Supreme Court of India has consistently clarified that the police are not legally forced to throw an accused person in jail the moment an FIR is filed:
*
* Arrest is an Investigating Option, Not a Command: The 2018 amendment gave police the power to arrest without waiting for upper-management approval, but it did not make arrest a mandatory duty. The police must still follow standard criminal procedure rules, meaning an arrest is only executed if there is credible evidence of a cognizable offence or a risk that the accused will flee or destroy evidence.
* Judicial Scrutiny is Allowed: Even though Section 18A places a strict bar on standard anticipatory bail, the Supreme Court (in cases like Prithvi Raj Chauhan v. Union of India) ruled that courts can still grant pre-arrest bail if a prima facie (at first sight) case is not made out. If the complaint appears maliciously filed or lacks basic caste-based components, the courts can block the arrest.
* Caste-Based Intent Must Be Proven: In recent legal clarifications, the courts have reiterated that simply using abusive words or taking disciplinary action against a member of the SC/ST community does not automatically invoke the Act. There must be explicit, provable evidence that the action or humiliation was committed specifically because of the victim’s caste identity.
* Special Rules for Public Servants/Official Duty: In instances where actions are taken as part of institutional or official duties (like an invigilator enforcing anti-cheating guidelines at an educational institute), the police and Crime Branch exercise a high degree of caution before initiating coercive actions. They must first establish whether it was a case of genuine institutional duty or deliberate caste-based harassment.
*
In Professor Doolla’s case, because the allegations of caste discrimination are directly clashing with institutional evidence of exam-cheating enforcement, the Mumbai Police Crime Branch is legally required to verify the facts before executing an arrest.
But social media has already played both jury and judge. The poor man’s reputation is in tatters. It doesn’t take a minute to destroy a reputation especially when facts aren’t in the open.
Known:
1. Student cheated, caught by Prof Doolla.
2. Student committed suicide, no note.
From an open and shut case of suicide most likely due to shame; suddenly the narrative has shifted to institute / professor scapegoating via deflection to alleged casteism.
If there is anyone whose reputation is in tatters it is the student and their parents, with some using this to target reservation category students as well.
The professor on the other hand is being treated as a martyr and the very notion that he may be responsible is rejected. I dont think the professor did anything wrong but he is certainly not the one coming out of this looking bad.
Bro its not your career being destroyed. The martyr is forgotten and thrown to the wayside the moment the agitation ends. He probably won’t ever be in a similar position in an academic institution again considering how large of a mark on his record this incident has left.
How is his career being destroyed when students and faculty are all supporting him?
The professors is at the wrong place and at the wrong time, and when these accusations are in all likelihood proven to be false, unless he has really done something he will have get loads of opportunities simply by vindicating to many that the SC/ST law is being misused despite the parents not having any ill intent, and would be compensated with even more support for all he had to go through.
Clearly someone has no clue how the process is the punishment in Indian law. It just so happens to be that the lines of divisions are sharp on this one so easy to take sides, as it were. If both sides were from a ‘protected class’ there would be no brouhaha because there would be no Hindu men to demonize. Not that I am surprised, his missionary hatred for Hindus and Hindu culture is so thinly veiled it blows off at the slightest of probing breezes.
https://scroll.in/article/1083003/how-case-against-muslim-teen-accused-of-love-jihad-fell-apart-in-up-court
I am not supporting the SC/ST or pushing back on accusations thst the educated and ambedkarite leaning ones are not vindictive because I hate any community. It is because I support the SC/ST and see this law as necessary to do so.
Even if the professor was christian or muslims i would do the same. What i wonder is if the professor was accused under maharashtars recent anti conversion law would you or anyone else be reacting the same way.
//Not that I am surprised, his missionary hatred for Hindus and Hindu culture is so thinly veiled it blows off at the slightest of probing breezes.//
This is extremely gross accusation coming from someone who regularly makes unfounded accusation that christians in Asia are driven by dislike of other religions be default or treats gathering where they affirm views that may be archaic and wrong but where no other community was spoke improperly as threaf to others.
I dare you to find a single example of me being anti any religion in any of my responses, I would advise you to introspect within yourself before throwing accusations
What I find really funny is that you are bringing up an article where love jihad accusations turned out to be false, and a vehicle for harassment as if I dont know about it.
I read quite extensively about these cases and am aware that the anti conversion laws are misused( or is that a conteoversil thing to say). I dont use these to delegetimize these laws because I know a law does not automatically become bad if there are fake cases. There is a role thst it has to play the same with Sc/ST act.
If you are interested in speaking about how both SC/ST act and anti conversion laws are misused we can look into what is the social power of the groups filing accusations, how many times do fir regarding anti conversion lead to a direct arrest vs how many times do firs on sc/st act lead an arrest, what is the conviction rate and what causes the high number of acquittal in both cases and much, much more.
Just because someone disagrees with you, counters your Prejudice or challenges your common sense does not make them anti hindu, someone much older than me should understand this much. You guys are not anti chrisitan for disagreeing with me.
Tbh, I think you are wrong here. It would be much simpler if he hated, but it’s that he really believes that these laws are useful.
He’s convinced himself of all kinds of fantastical scenarios where they make sense even though they are completely divorced from the reality playing out in front of his eyes.
The fact of the matter is this atrocity act really hurts employment in the private sector.
If I was a business owner in India, the first thing I would ensure is that there is HR section and a PR section to deal with this problem. If I cannot afford them, I simply cannot run the risk of hiring an SC/ST.
IIT’s too are paying the price of not hiring PR people to deal with the fallout.
Not only jobs but also rented accommodation.
In the recently concluded caste census, there were cases of house owners concealing their SC/ST status as clients will run away, and also clients concealing their SC ST caste as owners were scared of getting trapped in this law for demanding (asking) for a delayed rent. (which has happened)
Karnataka high court had some interesting cases:
I) a certain gentlemen claimed that a resort did not give him a room because he was SC. The judge asked as how the resort owner can make out the caste of the guest, if they had met for the first time.
2) a lawyer accused a client that her brief was withdrawn after the client learned that the lawyer was SC.
The remedy should come from dalits, other wise the intent of this law to help the real victims will fail.
I’ve been making a compilation list
Laws which have had the exact opposite effect of their intent.
Rent control : reduces housing availability and quality, raising rents
SC/ST Atrocity act: reduces employability and increases discrimination
Right to education: drops number of schools due to onerous compliance thereby reducing education availability
Child labour act: forces child labour underground and depresses wages and working conditions for children
All these are tautologically genuine issues but draconian laws rarely solve problems, just give the semblance of strict action.
It’s also why I am worried that the response to emotionally charged cases like the suicide will be to implement an ill thought out reactionary policy which will spawn a whole new set of problems.
There is a very fine policy line to walk between students being mentally cared for and staff being safe to do invigilation fearlessly.
Unfortunately, the current environment is not conducive to crafting it. It might be better to buy some time to let things calm down.
//SC/ST Atrocity act: reduces employability and increases discrimination //
The opportunities for SC/ST individuals was always poor due to lack of good education and societal biases unrelated to the SC/ST act
.
As far as discrimination at least some of the people prone to violence will think twice before committing violence or saying anything mean.
Same way it is for the best that SC/ST and people who mistrust them and think they are vindictive dont work together.
There is a reason a lot of educated and non educated SC/ST dont have any issues with these laws.
//Child labour act: forces child labour underground and depresses wages and working conditions for children/
This is a governance problem, not a problem with the laws. At least whete governance is proper these laws have done a great deal.
I dont know why you are letting negligent states off the hook from their responsibilities. At least with strict child labour laws, some people will be deterred in bad environments.
When women misuse anti dowry or anti rape laws is the burden put on women?
Why is it that if some people misuse the SC/ST act the community should take action, especially on behalf of those who have made it very clear that their suspicious and consider them vindictive
It is another thing that the cases you mention dont show any ill intent on the prosecution part, the gentleman in first example may have really thought that he was being discriminated, as is the lawyer in the second example. Your first example itself shows thst bias against these communties are still present.
Lastly many educated dalits who are treated as vindictive individuals are the very same individuals who stand up for and use all the resources they have to help their less fortunate brethren.
//The fact of the matter is this atrocity act really hurts employment in the private sector.
If I was a business owner in India, the first thing I would ensure is that there is HR section and a PR section to deal with this problem. If I cannot afford them, I simply cannot run the risk of hiring an SC/ST.//
Sukhdev Thorat in 2006 has already proven that private sector companies discriminate against SC/ST sounding names. If any candidate found out that you think they are vindictive enough to put you in a false case they may themselves not want to work in your organization.
//He’s convinced himself of all kinds of fantastical scenarios where they make sense even though they are completely divorced from the reality playing out in front of his eyes.//
In the world i live in, lack of knowledge that the court has ruled that private conversations dont attract SC/ST act is an established legal principle that someone can find out with one google search, it is not the laws fault if one gets fooled but the fault of the state and society for not making this fact known.
In the world I live in, almost 50% of policemen think this act is misused, and 26% think it is somewhat misused. Expecting this police force to then immediately arreat someone unless the victim is rich or powerful is crazy.
And finally in the world I live in, a policeman is well aware of the unpopularity of this law in the forces, how the high court can and will step in if this law is being misused and think twice before using this as a money making racket.
There are court judgements, survey data to back all that I say, all I have gotten from you are anecdotal examples thst show lack of awareness of the law among those concerned with it and hypothetical about how the police will behave without taking into account what their thoughts on the SC/ST act are.
Tbh, I think you are wrong here. It would be much simpler if he hated, but it’s that he really believes that these laws are useful.
I used to think he is a young, idealistic principled chap who believes what he reads online a little too much. Unfortunately, I’ve learnt to read people’s intentions from their words and I am in no delusion – he is yet another zealot son of Abraham whose principles are only a convenient tool to attack indigenous culture.
Small cue – notice how he is happy to justify SC/ST Act as “necessary” but cannot stop railing against anti-conversion laws. A principled person would oppose any law that reverses the burden of proof as it goes against well established principles of criminal jurisprudence. Either you oppose both or you support both. Another exhibition of his true intentions – he is so bothered by the trouble the SC/ST Act is causing his devious Pentecostal, Evangelist brethren in preying on the poor and vulnerable that he had to make this discussion about anti-conversion laws rather than the tragedy that is unfolding at IIT-B.
He’s been in favour of both the laws.
His oft used defence against conversion fears is the existence of the anti conversion law, but mostly that pastors are incompetent and not good at convincing people.
Unfortunately I seem to have been reading his verbose neurotic babble. My bad, I promise to stop.
but mostly that pastors are incompetent and not good at convincing people.
The disappointment is palpable! How dare these guys with the financial and political from some of the richest nations in the world still fail to show progress like in S. Korea lol.
//The disappointment is palpable! How dare these guys with the financial and political from some of the richest nations in the world still fail to show progress like in S. Korea lol.//
Except I am not disappointed nor do I care if they fail.
You seem to want to portray christians or people who disagree with you more broadly as anti hindu, so need to make pastors look more capable or competent than they are. What’s worse is that I was actually trying to reassure you that things are not as dire but it seems to be a waste for people who want to self victimize.
It will be funny to see how you twist this into me being anti hindu deapite they being nowhere near the aspersions you have cast on the christian community. I really feel sad for you that you allow yourself to get concerned over a bunch of morons who lack charisma. Please learn better ways to deal opposing viewpoints.
//His oft used defence against conversion fears is the existence of the anti conversion law, but mostly that pastors are incompetent and not good at convincing people.//
It is not a defense. A counterpoint to the worry you seem to have towards christian conversion.
My mistake for trying to calm your nerves and have a little more faith in your co religist
I should have known that if anything comes from people you disagree with or are opposed to condescension is the only correct response in your mind.
Pity you let yourself get concerned over bunch of fools.
You really need to read the whole conversation properly you have completely misunderstood and are just spreading lies and falsehoods.
//Small cue – notice how he is happy to justify SC/ST Act as “necessary” but cannot stop railing against anti-conversion laws. A principled person would oppose any law that reverses the burden of proof as it goes against well established principles of criminal jurisprudence. Either you oppose both or you support both. //
Except I have never cried about the christian community being victimised by the anti conversion law. Just pointing out that other laws exists and questioning why only the SC/ST act gets discussion.
I am the only person here who has cried that a law is bad because people who belong to my community are victimised. I can even give receipts
//Another exhibition of his true intentions – he is so bothered by the trouble the SC/ST Act is causing his devious Pentecostal, Evangelist brethren in preying on the poor and vulnerable that he had to make this discussion about anti-conversion laws rather than the tragedy that is unfolding at IIT-B.//
You guys are turning the tragedy in IIT B into a discussion on SC/ST act.
I only had to bring up the example when a pastor was implicated under SC/ST act because OM-3 said that I will change my tune if someone from my community is implicated in these laws. Even if this does become a front to target christisn missionaries it still wont delegetimize the SC/ST act but I do wonder you would be as suspicious and concerned if christians instead of upper castes hindus were the primary accused. That is the reason why you are calling me anti hinid for standing for the SC/ST act right?
Heard a bit more yesterday. There is zero evidence against the professor, because he did nothing. He followed process and the matter had ended there until the tragedy. I was very surprised and happy at the strong stance of the faculty body that has supported the professor. Also the students body has also taken a step back. I was surprised to hear them say they actually want to address the issue of cheating 🙂
Taken aback at the aggressive demands of the student’s parents. They are even saying the director harassed the student, which is nonsense. They are also demanding that arrest the professor first, interrogate him and then the truth will come out, which is again nonsense. The cynic in me is thinking this is an attempt now to milk this. If true, that would be the actual tragedy,
that is a very cynical take on grieving parents..
It is but I have seen exactly this happen many many times over.
Today’s papers are quoting the father as declaring a hunger strike if the prof is not arrested.
If he follows through (and the media are champing at the bit)…
How long before the cockroaches descend? If they do, it will be an about face for a movement started about accountability for exam cheating.
//How long before the cockroaches descend? If they do, it will be an about face for a movement started about accountability for exam cheating.//
The cockroaches are highlighting the poor condition of many government schools all across the country.
Unlike what you think, many who highlight issues in this country are not chasing clout.
There is not a more clout chasing movement in our country than the cockroaches. They literally had their start because of follower counts on Instagram. You can delude yourself into thinking otherwise but that’s where the instincts of the folks leading these movement comes from.
I dont need to delude myself.
It is those who were instigated by the very party that accepted their demands thst need to see ill intention to cover the fact that they have been conditioned to not show anger towards a party thst took advantage of them.
At least the CJP are bringing up issues and demanding attention. Unlike a party that spends substantial sums of money for advertising that is very clearly still working on its supporters but not so much on others.
LOL…you make them sound altruistic.
They are probably quite altruistic than many others who are given by blind trust by people on this site.
LMAO.
The way these cockroaches are video-recording themselves carrying out vigilante “CBI” style raid on random schools is a textbook example of chasing clout.
Denying the obvious, only serves to damage your own credibility.
As citizens we can only highlight issues to get the government to work
If you frame what is basic right and duty of a citizen as chasing clout, then your framing has completely lost sight about what are a citizens duties and rights.
//Denying the obvious, only serves to damage your own credibility.//
What is obvious to you, is only so within a world you created not the world I and the majority of this country, who dont treat those who think differently from us as hostile, live in. Also known as the real world.
Yeah. Right.
The ‘real world’. Where the Goan inquisition and “St Francis’ invoke a whole bunch of stammering.
No argument that it is basically your opinion regarding losing or gaining credibility, when it comes to seeing the cjp in a positive light
Bringing up a conversation that you seem to not have understood even till now, shows how deep your problem of grasping viewpoints you cant fit into your framing is, another a ‘you’ problem.
Turns out I was wrong, RaGa has descended, the nepo great grand masti of Indian politics displaying that superlative talent which has so skilfully kept him out of power.
congressi were not sure and were sitting on the fence. Shama Mohammed supported the professor. Sudhindra kulkarni said the act was being misused.
Now that they have direction, all and sundry have jumped in.
IITB is one of those institutions were reverse casteism is rampant. Its a dangerous place for any non SC/ST individual. I wouldn’t be surprised if some agenda has taken root.
Apparently everyone outside of their group is vindictive, or chasing clout.
Only the people they like and support actually have principles.
Grief-stricken folks can sometimes cling to delusion in an attempt to cope with tragedy. After all, what’s easier? To grieve over a struggling student’s death after he was caught cheating? Or to grieve over losing a child to ‘harassment’ and conspiracy?
Pointing out facts isn’t cynical.
My 2c – what happens in this case will depend entirely on how much political mileage the BJP sees itself gaining/not losing. If somehow the media trial manages to make the Prof look bad, you can rest assured the BJP govt will want to come out looking like a messiah of the SC community. It is unfortunate but that’s the price you pay for living in a country that has never had strong institutions.
I wouldn’t beat ourselves too much on this issue. Every nation has its holy cows it cannot dare to touch in any political discussion. A similar discussions in the UK about Muslims or in the US about Latinos and Black statistics leads to silence from both political parties.
Do you know anything about this information regarding the SC/ST act:
My understanding was that SC actually allowed for anticipatory bail under the SC/St act. Protests erupted and the govt brought in amendments in 2018 removing provision for anticipatory bail. The govt also removed any need for a preliminary enquiry. This means the govt has basically said that an accusation is enough to someone behind bars without any due process.
My understanding was that the BJP undid what was a fair provision introduced by the SC
Is this correct?
You are right.
https://www.verdictum.in/supreme-court/pil-challenging-2018-amendment-to-scst-act-rejected-1622482
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/hours-before-death-iit-bombay-student-sahil-wokade-told-friend-he-made-a-mistake-sources-12086982?pfrom=home-ndtv_topscroll
This poor kid..feel terrible..
He is 22 years old, meaning he took at least a drop year to get into IIT Bombay, no doubt adding to his pressure when things are not going well.
What a waste of young life.
Tbh, I haven’t looked at the text of the 2018 amendment myself but given to understand that you’re right. Will have a look later this week.
That said, courts have repeatedly tried to put in some safeguards against abuse of the law. That is being challenged from the far Left leaning side of the bar and bench (unsurprisingly) which is the vast majority of kids that graduate from NLUs. https://www.scobserver.in/supreme-court-observer-law-reports-scolr/scope-of-appeal-under-section-14a-of-thesc-st-atrocities-act/
https://theproofofguilt.blogspot.com/2022/09/
The problem though is that this is still bad law – as is any law that – a) reverses the burden of proof or, b) overcriminalizes behaviour in trying to solve a social problem. This Act does both so is an especially egregious example.
this sad story has now been our most engaged thread since geopolitics.. so may write something this evening..
any suggestions?
Write on the Saudis. MBS is very isolated and the US is gearing up to attack the Houthis.
Turn of the century Saudi history is quite fascinating.
https://indosaurus.substack.com/p/dune-or-doom?r=1mp4jc
I kept this off BP, mainly because I don’t really want to field comments about it from tweedle dumb and dumber.
if possible a thread about the “new pilgrims” of America. and also Europe.
These hindus post 90s, carry their religion on their sleeve (rather on their foreheads ).
They seems to have started all over again with new temples, bhajan groups, etc without any legacy issues.
For How long? Since trump has closed the doors.
The earlier groups tried to merge with the majority, by many ways including cutting short their names.
Good suggestion. These new hindus in the US are increasingly an embarrassment. Some of their behaviour is cringe worthy.
How so? One mans embarrassment could be another poor souls solace.
Someone leaked his GPA on X and it seems like he had around 6.5 GPA from his two semesters. I can understand why he wanted to give up.
That is not so terrible, just below average. I get emotions are high and the whole episode is being politicised, but judging a suicide is a very harsh thing to read.
While not wanting to police your speech, I also want to let you know it comes across as very callous.
To be honest, this whole episode, even writing an article about it feels very exploitative.
Unfortunately his parents have, in their pain, made this horrible choice and a lot of malign forces are looking to exploit it.
Staying silent while people demand that one of India’s premier systems is destroyed from a combination of social media algorithms pumping narratives and a lot of caste exploiters is also a bad option.
IIT has released the CCTV footage, the student is calmly asked to hand over his phone, there is no altercation, no upbraiding in public, and he walked out of the room. The professors conduct on video is par excellence. NDTV is also reporting that the last person the student called is making a statement that there were no caste references in the conversation.
Listen, I sound callous because I’ve been through similar situations. I had around 7.75 GPA on my first semester in undergrad and I had a rather bad mental health status during that time as well. If I had had as bad of an incident during that time I could imagine myself in the same position as Sahil. I can understand the pressure you can feel when you’re performing under the expectations of your mentors.
👍
My two cents here: The GPA is not bad but I can imagine him feeling the pressure. When I was there, I noticed that peer pressure can be quite brutal just because of the environment inside. One constantly feels judged, even if no one says a word.
Secondly, he was 22 years old, an age when everyone actually graduates. I am sure he put everything on the line to somehow make it inside. I am also guessing that parental pressures could have been significant. Once inside, if he actually struggled, he must have been under immense stress.
I can write pages on what can and should be changed etc inside these institutes but I try not to think about it because I know It is futile.
Someone very senior and wise told me once about these institutes: They are like a clay pot. You cant change its shape. If you try, you will break it. Let it keep running as is until circumstances present a genuine opportunity for reform.
22 seems off. May I know the source for this info.
Hindu says 20, which is admittedly 2 years above the average.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/maharashtra/iit-bombay-forms-panel-to-probe-students-death/article71500841.ece
Calvin mentioned 22 in a comment above
It seems the earlier articles got his age wrong.
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/maharashtra/2026/Sep/22/iit-b-student-suicide-deceased-made-no-complaint-to-scst-cell-claims-faculty-forum-head
“Meanwhile, the institute later backtracked on its earlier statements that the deceased had cheated in the examination using ChatGPT, which it had linked to his death, and apologised.”
Defaming the dead is generally not a good idea.