Open Thread – 10/24/2020 – Brown Pundits

Going to post some notes on the latest podcast here. I talked to Fred Martin, who is of Haitian origin, but pretty stridently French, and a liberal. We discussed the killing of Samuel Paty, and Islam and Islamism in France. We also mooted the differences in relation to race between the USA and France, and our contrasting experiences. Finally, we talk about the coming winter of coronavirus in Europe.

A lot of the discussion centered around the contrast between France and the USA, which is always interesting to explore.

Thanks to everyone who is a Patron. I’ve started posting podcasts which you can’t find elsewhere yet there…

On Twitter, Suhag Shukla has been pushing back on the “caste is a huge problem for Indian Americans” narrative. I think she’s right on the specific issue. But, I am skeptical when she seems to attribute caste to colonialism, or, that it is not tightly integrated into Hinduism. I think Hinduism has a caste problem like Islam has a religious oppression problem. Religions are made by humans, and how they play out is a human matter. For whatever reason, Islamic societies have not been pluralistic in an egalitarian manner to other religions, while Hinduism in India is hard to disentangle from caste and jati. This doesn’t mean they’re necessary connections. Caste and jati are not major issues in Balinese or Cham Hinduism, though varna does exist.

The major dynamic which needs to be reiterated is that American Hinduism is very distinct from Hinduism in India, just as American Islam is very distinct from Islam in the Near East. I’m 99% sure that the Indian Americans I know (Generation X) would exhibit no caste bias of any note because in the USA it’s just not relevant in any way.

Brown Pundits Subreddit.

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Diaspora Indian
Diaspora Indian
3 years ago

Caste is over-hyped, most likely by the colonial forces who saw it as a useful tool to divide and conquer as well as rationalise their own domination.

The people hyping up caste are mostly Western NGOs, Christian/Islamic missionaries (who want to proselytise) and liberal Hindus, a lot of whom happen to be {{{Brahmin}}} for some reason, thereby playing the role of the Bolshevik in India.

Having grown up in a Hindu household, with my earlier years being spent in India proper, I can say I have never come across the concept of caste being discussed in my family, the first time I heard of it was in the West, so it seems to be more of a Western obsession more than anything else. Distinctions amongst the Indian diaspora are always linguistic.

India should really ban these subversive NGOs who promote this nonsense in order to foment a BLM 2020 style colour revolution.

potaman
potaman
3 years ago

One day, when he was
about ten or twelve ,
he asked his mother
“What is my caste?
Some boys in the
school were asking
I didn’t know what
to say.” The mother,
got up in the middle
of her supper. “ Beta
if you don’t know it
by now, it must be upper.”
— Akhil Katyal

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  potaman

amazing. Yes very true

Diasporan
Diasporan
3 years ago

There’s the “Protestantization” of religions in the US (religions all become very confessionalized and seen through an individualistic lens about personal revelation) Razib talked about before for Catholics and Jews, so no suprise that it’s the case for Muslims and Hindus too. Well, if Hare Krishnas aren’t already fitting this model as “Protestantized”.

Communal identities based on ethnoreligious groups just based on “keeping it in the family by default because that’s what my parents were and their parents before them” without backing by strong personal conviction, and without a strong reason to stick to one’s ethnoreligious group (e.g. persecution), don’t seem to survive contact/assimilation with the WEIRD (the acronym) American (and perhaps other western societies, at least Anglophone ones) religious style well.

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago

Razib and other Genomics nerds questions –
I was asked by a friend about whether Jatts/ Gujjars/ Rors (most Jatts) are remnants of Shakas, Kushanas/ Hunas mixing with local creed. He seemed pretty convinced of his argument – I have no insight into the genomics but remember following that lack of East-Asian which is expected in all these Steppe Horsemen

Any updates on that or anything else?

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

I just find it funny that they tend to have this strong desire to identify with their outside minority ancestry than their majority Indus (AASI+iranic) one. Why is it never framed as “input” but rather as “remnants?” This desire to upplay foreign ancestry is a moniker of Indianness. We truly are a wounded civilization.

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

To be fair – this guy was a Rajput and appeared a bit stereotypical about assertions of Jatts – It was more Jatts arent like other North Indians. Have to be later Iranic derived people not the Original IA ppl
HIS QUOTE not my – I disagreed but I don’t know genetics – so sent a few blogposts –
Anyways what’s the current consensus?

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

consensus is that they have about 10-20% more steppe than upper caste N Indians and likely have some outside input, though it has minor shift in ancestry impact like an average African American (about 85% SSA) compared to a Subsaharan West African (100% SSA). Yes there are differences but the overlap is massive. It would be like subsaharan africans constantly bringing up their white ancestry. Not exactly since the subjugation history makes the context diff. But you get my point.

There is a massive raciology component to try to come off as West Asian as possible. I don’t blame them. Many layers

1. Indo Aryan migration is more West Eurasian people coming in
2. People from West Asia ruling India. Yes Mughals big East Eurasian Eurasian component but lot of the high culture is imported from Persia
3. British Rule
4. American rise and Anglo germanic origin peoples being largely global power brokers
5. Bollywood cementing these looks as the standard, standing on all of these layers

And while I get this yearning on one level, insofar as people tend to identify with “winners,” I see it as a bit sad.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

You are thinking too much about one thing and not enough about others. Jats, well at least the more eastern Indian side Jats have only been intergated into the mainstream society in the last 1000 or so years. Muslim Jutts may have integrated into Islamic society before the others.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

I think I get your point Dathang. But could you elaborate on what I am overlooking?

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Less about steppe (most people aren’t even aware of modern genetic results) and more about not seeing the group as a part of the larger society because of relatively shallow/recent links to the said society.
In comparison, the different ancestors of different Jat groups may feel no connection to mainstream society whatsoever 2000 years ago.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@DaThang

Agreed. Unlike individuals on brownpundits or genetic/anthropology sites, the average South Asian (diaspora or not) has never heard of terms like AASI, Steppe, Iran N, etc.

Anyways, as a “diaspora South Asian”, I relate to the idea of not seeing myself as part of the larger “Indian group.” After my American/Canadian identities, I only feel attached to my ethno-cultural group (Punjabi).

Sometimes I wonder what India would have looked like had it split more on distinct ethno-cultural lines. In many ways, India mirrors the diversity of language and cultures in Europe (if not more). Despite this, it is a single country with a population over 1 billion and a genetic cline that is wider (partly related to how diverged AASI is from other ancestral pops) than all of Europe combined.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@paindu
Out of curiosity, were you exposed heavily to Khalistan separatist movement?

Canadian Jatt Sikhs tend to espouse hardcore ethnonationalist borderline supremacist views by several orders of magnitudes compared to their Indian counterparts

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Maybe. But a lot of the underpinning on said differences delves right back into the same racial worm hole and emphasizing minority ancestral components. Culturally, Jats seem pretty darn Indian. Heck they basically function like a caste.

And prior to 2000 years ago even caste was more fluid. Your points are non exclusive to Jats. I think the “We wuz WAY diff and we special and Western and shiet” vibe has very strong racialist underpinnings.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Are you implying that castes are the only important thing about Indian society? Even if castes weren’t solid back then, the ancestors of say, the general castes descend from the people in the mainstream Indian society for 2,000+ years, and so that is important. The cultural argument is that Jats have not and have come from an unknown fringe.

But if you want to discard this, you are only lending credence to the idea that people align along genetic lines even without knowing a word about genetics. Wouldn’t that contradict Jats being recently Indianized (as they are and as you note they currently are) and hence work against your own points? There is a contradiction here. To resolve this, on one hand, there is the argument for late cultural integration to explain this, and on the other hand, there is the argument that the cultural integration doesn’t matter.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock

I was certainly exposed to it but not directly via my parents or family. Not that a kid growing up would actually grasp the concept of 1984 or Indira Gandhi/Operation Bluestar/KPS Gill.

Rather, my first true exposure was seeing Khalistan banners and pictures of Bhindrawale at numerous Gurdwaras throughout the US (California) and Canada (obviously UK has them too).

As I got older, I did my own research (on partition and 1984) after I picked up an interest in South Asian history and anthropology towards the end of high school.

Disclaimer: I’m not a religious person. My interest in South Asian history (including Khalistan) was from an ethno-cultural/historical perspective. This stuff is a touchy topic but I don’t mind sharing my thoughts/offering my perspective.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@Dathang
I am implying Jats assumed the role of the shudra farmer, despite some unknown genetic input. They essentially functioned and still function like a caste, in terms of endogamy. And the majority of Jat ancestral components are identical to that of those other Indians whose ancestors were present 2000 years ago. The genetic difference is present but overblown. The cultural differences are a modern attempt to justify a lot of the phenotypic elitism, given a greater minority proportion do pass as more West than those of all other communities, by drawing up a more politically correct line of argumentation of different cultures. Jats don’t fit neatly within the typical genetics of the caste framework; however, they fit neatly enough in the cultural framework. And they aren’t genetically THAT different from other S Asians regardless. Yes on average they are different but the overlap in phenotype is quite large. And genotype wise it is what an additional of 20% ish steppe? I mean that is like SSA vs average American Black

Regardless, their integration into the modern nation states of India and Pak is quite extensive and was even in the 1980s. Enough serve proudly in the respective militaries. Hopefully, these ethnic regiments are dissolved soon in India though. The Sikh Jats of Canada and central Valley in cali have gripes over the unfortunate events of 1984. They also tend to descend from the more hardcore Khalistan fold, who tended to come from more racialist and separatist pockets of society; aka they tend to look for any excuse they can get to come off as different aka “better.”

Their endogamous behavior and elitism is nothing special in a S Asian context. What is, is the bit of extra steppe, and the more West Eurasian phenotypic minority outliers it gives the community in greater proportions compared to other one. Hence, the elitism has a special racialized flavor. Cherry picking is easier for them. Also chest thumping after the British used them so much, especially post 1857, and the S Asian militaries continuing the tradition.

They like to argue their special “blood” makes them braver. I have seen that nonsense too.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

You still fail to understand what I am trying to tell you thewarlocke. There was no other input. The ethnogenesis was different entirely from the mainstream. As in it took place in a different combination which is exactly why the Jat yDNA is different from the general caste yDNA of north India. There is no record of Jats being a part of the mainstream south Asian society more than roughly 1,000 years go, you also need to understand this. So your view of Jats being a part of the society as farmers from the get go is inconsistent with the records. If anything, the records indicate a closer link to pastoralism until Jats settled down within the last thousand years. Yes, by then, the Jats of the different regions had begun to take up agricultural roles and had began to integrate into society. That is what I am saying, this integration is only a thousand or so year old, prior to which Jats were seen as ‘outside’ of the main society.

>Jats don’t fit neatly within the typical genetics of the caste framework; however, they fit neatly enough in the cultural framework.

Only in the last thousand years, prior to which there were only tenuous connections to mainstream society. In this aspect, Jats differ from general caste Indians because the general caste Indians’ ancestors were a part of the mainstream society for much longer than Jats have been.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock
Have you ever spoken to a diaspora Punjabi Sikh (Jatt or not) about their perspective? I can assure you most of us aren’t ardent Khalistanis. Now, are we fond of India? That’s a separate question. The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

Not sure how others perceive it but I do feel like it’s worth mentioning that many diaspora Jatt Sikhs/Punjabi Sikhs treat Indian as a nationality rather than an ethnicity This is in contrast to many other diaspora South Asians who more or less let Indian behave as their ethnicity (though there are some exceptions). It’s an interesting dynamic.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@Dathang

Regardless, a 1000 years is a long time dude.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlocke

It is, which is why there is likely a change over time. The ancestors of Jats 1000+ years ago would likely not even cooperate socially with general castes or general society at all, if not be outright hostile 24/7. Hostilities likely have gone down in the 1,000 years and if 1,000 had been 2,000 instead, it would be even smoother. Likewise, if it was 500 instead of 1,000 hostilities would be more common. I don’t expect it to be linear but I do anticipate a positive correlation with respect to time. Although there are plenty of other factors (not ideal scenario factors) which may resulting in a varying correlation values over time as well, speeding up for a given century and slowing down for another.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@Paindu
Gujaratis ethnically identify as Gujarati where I grew up and mostly hangout and know other Gujaratis. The generation below is different and has more of a pan Indian identity. I notice this among white collar kids of Jatt Sikhs who grew up in wealthy nyc suburbs. The Jatt Sikhs from isolated pockets of the Central Valley and Brampton have a different cultural outlook colored heavily by 1984 and the Khalistan movement, whether they directly believe in it or not.

Regardless, even Jatt Sikhs are more integrated now than ever within India itself. The appetite for Khalistan is near nil, regardless of what the Khalistan conspiracy theorists like to say.
And trust me, again most
diaspora Indians don’t have a super high opinion of India. But they also realize breaking India will just cause Pakistan and China to come in and eat away at regions. And many places would be landlocked and/or have other geopolitical concerns. The current political union with enough federalism in the right ways is the best bet. It might have been for Europe too. The EU is having issues because of a disjointed monetary and fiscal policy. That wouldn’t have been an issue with a more complete union.

Again, Jatt Sikh behavior in the immigrant generation is similar to that of other Indians, except for the 1980s group that has some extra distrust 2/2 to Khalistan issues. The 2nd gen is where differences begin. That too it depends on where they grew up heavily.

And Jatt Sikhs are only 1/3 of the Jatt equation. The best integrated are Muslim Juts who I notice see other Pakistanis, outside of chamars of course (Pak is still rife with casteism), as their bretheren, often mentioning Gujjars, Arains, Potaharis, etc.
Haryana Jats are somewhere in between. But Hinduism and proximity to the center has made for a more integrative spirit and desire to see the country move forward.

A special note. The minority of the 2nd gen Jatt Sikh types who have a special type of affinity towards Pakistanis and the Pan Punjabi enthonationalism and shitting on other Indian groups is a more N American, precisely American, phenomenoma where social rep of Indians is nerdy. This is out of social convenience. They want to build a separate cool rep to escape the social demerits of being associated with “nerds.”

Pakthings and Araingang like to bring up those types because it supports their ethnonationalist narrative. They likely are more exposed to those types just with how people tend to gravitate towards those whom they share closer views with. I am a devil’s advocate type person and don’t mind heated discussion, so I tend to look for these types. Hence, I get into my fair of arguments. Granted, the aforementioned two are also islamoapologists and have a deep bias against Hindus, so they go on their false “we wuz buddhist” trope. but that’s a separate discussion.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@Dathang

Your ethnogenesis points makes sense. Thanks for them. Event though components are not that far off, the historiography is different. I get it now. And yes things will trend towards more harmony over time. Their behavior makes more sense.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

I don’t think that even the component ratios can be a permanent hurdle in cultural integration. If you want to look at it as south Asian and non-south Asian, then Jaats would be 1.5, Gujarati Brahmins would be 3.63, and regular Gujaratis would be around 7.62. If these were so important, then Gujarati Brahmins would identify as being closer to Jaats than to regular Gujaratis or as intermediate if you kept on using ratios, but that isn’t the case. This gives us an optimistic outlook for the expected trajectory of Jat integration with local identities like Haryana Jaats in Haryana and Punjab Jatts in Punjab. As you have mentioned, Muslim Jutts are already the most well integrated of the three.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock

Yes, many Gujaratis and Tamils identify with their ethnicities first but the point was trying to make was that you’re more likely to see a multi gen diaspora Sikh (Jatt or otherwise) say they’re Punjabi, not Indian in comparison to the other groups.

Also, I’m not sure how familiar you are with Jatt Sikh demographics but the bulk of us are in Brampton/GTA, Surrey/Vancouver and Yuba City/Sacramento/Central Valley + San Jose/Bay Area. I have family in all 3 places. So, I imagine they heavily outnumber NY/NJ ones.

I would agree that most Indian Jatt Sikhs are integrated well into India. That doesn’t mean people have completely forgot about ’84 and moved on. As an example, Bhindrawale bumper stickers are not necessarily a rare find in rural Punjab.

I think you need to make a distinction when you compare the perspective on India of mutli-gen diaspora Sikhs vs. other groups. Their unfavorable opinions of India are driven by different reasons. Also, I think it’s worth noting that the vast majority of us don’t have some desire for the balkanization of India. That doesn’t mean we wouldn’t support more state level autonomy (Nehru offered this during partition and then backtracked).

It’s not a simple as 1980s group btw. My paternal family came to Canada in the 70’s and maternal family to California in the 60s. I don’t understand where people get it’s just the 1980’s migrants/asylum seekers who felt distrust toward India.

In terms of integration, it’s worth pointing out that Jatt Sikhs happen to heavily outnumber other non-dalit Sikhs (Gujjar, Tarkhan, Saini, Rajput, Khatri, Kamboj, etc). However, the majority of us still identify Punjabi Sikh > Jatt.

Regarding, special affinity toward Pakistanis and Pan Punjabi ethnonationalism? Couldn’t it just be the fact that we share the same culture and language (regardless of which side of the border we’re from)? Though, I won’t disagree about your points on social convenience and social demerits of “nerd” association.

As for previous religions, I think it’s worth noting that many Jatts and other Punjabis have forms of ancestor worship still practiced to this day. Since most of us fall outside the varna system, I’m not sure what variation of Hinduism or even Buddhism our ancestors might have practiced.
Note to self: Too many different tangents.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@Dathang

Gujarat is shockingly united within the Hindu community, despite a massive range with Patels being around Reddys and Gujarati Brahmins being close to upper caste Sindhis, within vanias occupying a S Indian Brahmin level of admix somewhere in between and Rajputs in between vanias and Brahmins. For as racially diverse as it is also, it is culturally a quite homogenous. Speaks once again to the power of culture trumping the admix.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Punjab has a had Sikh only CMs for sometime. But even their majority is slowly eroding as Punjabi is 40% Hindu and climbing. Also, not all of Sikhs are disaffected by BJP. Some do support it, and I think it will grow, given BJP has more support in younger generation. These state level autonomy requests for greater Sikh majority type control is the reason Punjab and Haryana were split to begin with. But soon Punjab will be majority Hindu as well. The Sikh birthrate is low and outmigration is high

And this “Punjabi first” identification is more common again among those who stay in those ethnic enclaves. I have met Punjabis at medical conferences and debate tournaments, and I like discussing Indian American identity a lot, so I have brought this up with them and their pan Indian type identity is stronger after college and even things like college Bhangra teams having a strong S Indian and Gujarati presence. Once, Punjabis from those areas cosmopolitanize, they tend to become more “Pan Brown” in outlook. I see this among Pakistanis, much to the chagrin of the Birdari ethnonationalist islamoapologist gang.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock

Fair enough. I don’t follow Indian politics in depth. I have a friend who came to Canada in the early 2010’s so most of my updates and discussions are with him.

I’d be surprised if BJP fully wins over Indian Sikhs but I’ll keep an eye out. Yes, I’m well aware of the Punjabi Suba movement and the split of Indian Punjab from Himachal Pradesh and Haryana. However, I was speaking more in lines of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution before Khalistan gained any real traction in the 80’s.

As for demographics, it does seem like they’re going that way. Tons of Bihar/UP migration into Punjab and outmigration of many Punjabi youth to the Western diaspora.

With regards to identification, it is more common in the enclaves but if we’re being realistic here, most Punjabi Sikhs in the US are disproportionately concentrated near these enclaves in the greater Toronto, Vancouver, Sacramento and Bay Area’s. So, a Bhangra team in one of these cities might not be as diverse as elsewhere.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@Dathang
I think integration within common Indian culture is also growing stronger and stronger within Punjab. My girlfriend is Sikh Punjabi and visited Jahlander and current generation communicates largely in Hindi with one another. The process of integration is occurring more and more. Also, infanticide rates and skewed sex ratios are present in all communities but Jats are known for this to some degree. Regardless, even if ratios are not higher in Jats, they still have more money to do stuff like import brides from elsewhere. This is also happening more. Also, caste marriage is declining, albeit slowly.

My whole point is that the racial and cultural differences, as major or minor as one could want to argue about, are declining year after year. Integration is the long term trend. And even among S Asian diaspora, outmarriage rates of caste, creed, religion, and race are increasing. This hardcore Jatt identity stuff is fading. The remnants of those who have ethnonationalist often racialist and supremacist views are echoed intensely online. And those are the types I have unfortunately had to deal with constantly.

My girlfriend also grew up in Central Valley in a place where playing Hindi music instead of Punjabi at a party was considered “gay,” and there was an ethnonationalist pride and things like Khalistan parades with pictures of Gandhi being burned. Her family didn’t identify with it, per her, but it was definitely there.

I think Jats have monopoly over Punjabi identity for sure in West. If they suddenly had a big surge of chamars in West who would try to use that identity to intermingle, I think they would revert back to more pan Jat over pan Punjabi. It all comes down to community level politics; hence, caste like behavior.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Welcome back Paindu 🙂

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock
I agree that integration with “common” North Indian culture is growing stronger but I would specify it most to urban Punjab. That includes conversing in Hindi. My friend has echoed the same. However, demographically, the majority of the Sikh population (incl. Jatts) is concentrated in rural Punjab. Hindus heavily outnumber Sikhs in the urban centers of Punjab (Jalandhar, Ludhiana, Patiala, Bathinda, etc.)

In general, I won’t disagree that outmarriage rates for various groups are increasing. That’s the general trend for most “outmarriage” trends in the western diaspora too. Though, I’d argue it’s still not the majority or rapid growth. These things take time (though Westernization might speed it up).

As for Hindi vs. Punjabi music, you have to understand, there is politics and ethno-cultural identity at play. In many circles, Punjabi can be seen as crude or brutish and looked down at with disdain in comparison to Hindi or Urdu (in Pakistan). So, it’s a “pride thing.” And yes, Sikhs (diaspora or Indian) are not fans of either Gandhi.

As for the monopoly over Punjabi Sikh identity, that hypothetical is probably not too far off base.

That’s my 2 cents anyways.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@DaThang

But still that’s 1,000 years. Does that mean Canadian Jatts will take 1,000 years to integrate into Canadian society?

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

Original (Indo- and all other)Aryans?

Do we have consensus that they were ‘Proto-Slavics’, don’t we?

Any other possible candidates?

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

Didn’t proto slavics have other major amcestral components than just what the indo aryans were composed of? I’d imagine more WHG

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

So-calle ‘Proto-Slavic’ have a specific name, language and mythology. Who are WHG? What is thier basic haplogroup(s)? WHich language they spoke? What was their mythology? Any WHG toponym? Any WHG culture artefacts? Where they originated? What’s happened with them? Who are their contemporary desendants?

NM
NM
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

Check out paper by Anurag Kadian on Rors. Pretty much answers everything.

There has not been major mixing of external DNA into Rors since a long time.

There’s his interview in Hindi on a Facebook page as well. Look for Rors Anurag Kadian

Diaspora Indian
Diaspora Indian
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

“This desire to upplay foreign ancestry is a moniker of Indianness. We truly are a wounded civilization.”

This wouldn’t be a phenomenon if India wasn’t in such a bad place developmentally speaking, the types of people who are most autistic and insecure about their ancestors and their histories are ones who are in a bad place contemporarily.

After African Americans, South Asians are the worst for we wuzzery.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock

If you split South Asian ancestry into the elemental ancestral streams of Iran N + AASI + Steppe, there are plenty of South Asians who have more Iran N and Steppe as individual components than AASI. However, if you use proxies such as IVC, BMAC and Central Steppe, then the lowest IVC levels still hit 36-40% or so (if you use SIS BA3 – IVC migrant to Shahr-e Sukhteh). It’s higher if you use the SIS BA2 IVCp samples.

Also, Iranian Neolithic farmers weren’t Iranic (West Iranic & East Iranic languages are from the Steppe). If anything, it’s plausible they were Dravidian speaking.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

The point is majority of Indian ancestry for all groups is non steppe aka IVC but some like to cling to the extra steppe as a means to exotify themselves and this manifests intensely among online racialist types. They also like to exaggerate the shit out of their steppe and push that as their moniker of specialness rather than realizing they are mostly autosomally the same. Yes the genesis was a different pattern but the end result isn’t something THAT different. Hence why there is still mostly just fine phenotypic overlap, just a greater proportion of minority West passing outliers

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock
Honestly, it really depends on you define the ancestry. Through, elemental models with Iran N/Iran M fully separated from AASI or through the actual ancient civilization proxies with IVC, BMAC and Central Steppe (from KAZ).

Anyways, I understand you point. From my perspective, the South Asian genetic cline shows we’re all South Asian but that doesn’t necessarily mean we’re all the same (as in a single cohesive ethno-cultural group). In essence, I see South Asia like Europe with but with larger inter group genetic distances (due to the divergence of AASI).

Here’s a PCA showing the South Asian cline on a Global 25 PCA:
https://imgur.com/J5RWKEI

The giant black cluster in the top right are Europeans.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

If you want to be technical

IVC= AASI+ Iran Mesolithic related HG (common ancestor with Iran mesolithic is furthest tracing). Majority of S Asians are this.

Reddys and Patels are legit living relics of the more AASI end of the IVC spectrum.

iamVY
iamVY
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

On a different but related topic kodavas in Karnataka have higher IVC % than almost everyone (patels, reddys, jats, baluchis etc) except maybe lohannas. They also follow some unique ancestor worship practices. At least that is their claim.

Has there been any study looking for IVC religion through the lens of these unique practices?

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@iamIVY

The IVC had a racial cline from Iranic related to AASI with up to 50% AASI, the level Reddys and Patels display. Therefore, groups like Lohanas that are actually quite high in Steppe would cluster further away from IVC citizens. The key is having no steppe to being a living relic of the IVC.

iamVY
iamVY
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock

Exactly. Thats why I was talking about kodavas from karnataka who have much lower steppe & really high IVC related values. And on top of that they seem to be following peculiar practices all along.

Maybe I will include the article and South Asian Genome numbers shared by Razib in a separate post.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

I have said this in the past. I don’t see any later input. I suspect that the ethnigenesis of Jats and general castes happened separately which would explain different proportions and lineages, especially for Jaats.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Yeah caste is a bigger deal. And discrimination against more AASI people is a bigger deal than what people think.

Look at the S Asians of quora and their insane cherry picking. That alone shows you their embarrassment and delusion about their own peoples’ average and frankly vast majority looks.

Caste matters still to a disturbing degree. But Congress tends to play along with regional hegemonds who are all based on caste.

The BJP takes them head on and hence has shed many regional allies. It is a truly pan Indian party with OBC and vaishya as its leaders.

I think it will take a long time. Intercaste marriage rates is the ultimate test.

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

I think it will take a long time. Intercaste marriage rates is the ultimate test.

With urbanization and a lot more interaction of sexes, I guess it will keep on reducing (esp in urban centers)

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

The 4 Varna concept is overhyped.

There are something like 3000 endogamous groups.

The sheer number and complexity of these groups is underhyped.

The actual nature of these groups is obfuscated by attempting to classify them into the Hindu Varna system.

This is what the British were guilty of doing.

Non-landowning Brahmin jatis map most cleanly to Varna. Everyone else is muddled to varying degrees.

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

“it’s pretty shocking how closely varna aligns with AASI % in a region.” —
@Razib,
Can’t say about the rest of india but doesn’t this break down in UP with yadavs/Ahirs of UP being similar to UP rajputs in terms of steppe and many farming and artisan castes being similar or higher steppe than baniyas of UP .
Brahmins are the only exception here but since West UP has jats too so there’s that.

“in UP dalit castes are very distinct from non-dalits,” —- May i ask which dalit castes have been the samples taken from ?

Diaspora Indian
Diaspora Indian
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

“why are there reservations and caste-based parties?”

The only people who care about caste are the so-called ‘lower castes’, as not caring about caste would mean losing reservation goodies.

It is actually similar to America, it is mostly black people who care about race, people speak of “whiteness” being a social construct of oppression but I would say it is rather “blackness” which has become a social construct of perpetual victimhood.

As for your comments about endogamy, this does not actually imply some hierarchical system of oppression as different jatis of the same varna would also not mix, and there is some evidence of upward mobility of jatis.

The worst problem in India is colourism, which I will admit is particularly bad in India due to Bollywood.

DaveS
DaveS
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

If you are so ready to believe that caste doesn’t matter much for 99% of ‘American’ hindus, why are you so reluctant to believe a similar progression for urban Indians, or educated Indians? With a massive 1.3 bn population, obviously even a minority of folks who still put stock in it, are going to ‘show up’ in numbers.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

https://www.quora.com/profile/Noor-Ul-Huda-51?ch=10&share=d8004703&srid=u6vS8

a pak racialist historical revisionist quoran. Read some of her posts for a good laugh.

Diaspora Indian
Diaspora Indian
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

thewarlock says: “a pak racialist historical revisionist quoran. Read some of her posts for a good laugh.”

Pakistan is a hugely diverse nation from a genetic and especially a phenotypical standpoint, and it is often the letter than matters more as Razib said in an earlier post where he competed two Kailash girls, one of whom looked Europeans and the other North Indian.

As a result, these Quorans can cherry pick photos to claim Pakistan is actually an X nation rather than a Y nation, and historically speaking Pakistan does have a rich history of foreign conquests and visitors from Aryans and Arabs to Arabs and Turks.

I think the mainstream of Pakistan is now trying to redefine Pakistani identity towards a more Turkic culture than an Arab one, due to current geopolitics and Pakistan aligning with Turkey more than KSA. The RV show “Resurrection: Ertugrul” was also recently dubbed in Urdu and has become a hit in Pakistan.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

None of these “invaders” made much of a dent of genetic impact at all. I have seen enough street pics of Pakistanis and met enough diasporans in the nyc metro area and have seen enough do stuff like join Indian dance teams and frats. The Sindhis and Punjabis look like their Indian counterparts. Most are typical NW looking brown folks with a significant number, honestly good majority, being able to pass unnoticed in N India. Mohajirs just mostly look like mid and upper caste gangetic plains people. And honestly like 20-25% of Pakistanis I meet can even pass extremely well as mid caste S Indians like Reddys.

But these quora clowns make the photoshopped skin bleached norm of fashion magazines as the typical look of the nation. Balochis and Pashtuns are iranic and diff. But it surprises me in pics how many darker Pashtuns I can spot. Some with features that aren’t so far off from people a bit to the East. But again, as a whole, their West shift is easier to see. There seems to be like a 15-20% AASI and perhaps 25-30% iranic component of IVC threshold for it to give the “S Asian look”

Like I said before. Indians view Pakistanis as brethren lost to a bad ideology. That is much nicer than the Pak view of Indians as some separate species subhuman people. That’s why I find it ironic when Imran Khan Niazi clown calls Modi a Nazi. The “Dravidian Supremacy” comment of Bajwa is even funnier. These people are so deluded. When they foreign fantasies were broken, they jumped ship to Birdari ethnonationalism of “We wuz iranic Indus valley and shiet, we was steppe and shiet, we was buddhist and never believed in caste and shiet, we a separate civilization and shiet” nonsensical dogma. Hence, the rise of the typical Pak Punjabi Punjabi ethnonationalist islamoapologists online

Diaspora Indian
Diaspora Indian
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Indian obsession with light skin doesn’t help with this regard, as another commenter on this thread said, there are instances of North Indians dissing South Indians, most likely because of their appearance. North Indians diss South Indians, Pakistanis in turn diss North Indians (and as a bonus, Afghans diss Pakistani “daal khors”)

I have to admit, the racialist Pakistanis online did get to me once upon a time, but nowadays I don’t care as much as reality speaks for itself. The Pakistanis I have met in real life are fairly friendly to me despite me not being Punjabi.

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago

Trad inclined Hindus to tend to be a bit more defensive/evasive around issues of caste. But this defensiveness misleads them on caste matters IMO – as most of these folks r anyways descended from UCs.
Hindutva people are a lot more honest about the problems of Caste and don’t go around giving tenuous defenses of caste

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

Yeah caste exists. It is bad. Hardcore tribalism is just S Asian culture summarized in two words.

But it is getting better. People are aware. And they are giving less and less of a shit about that type of BS. And those that do are being exposed. And yes it can go faster.

And no Islam and Sikhism do not actually change ground realities much on caste, no matter what the online Punjabi birdari ethnonationalist gang ironically tries to claim, while simultaneously often praising their own more West Eurasian on average looks (even tho its like 10% vs. 5% thing among them vs. upper caste N Indian hindus on proportion of respective populations passing well as W Asian), while ignoring that their vast majority pass fine among other N Indians but alas their cherry picking

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

yes. They are confused. Hindutuva people tend to recognize it. Granted some don’t.

But even big names like Godse did. If you read his testimony in court for the Gandhi murder trial, he goes into how he opposed those Hindutuva leaders who refused to sit and eat with lower castes. He is a cold blooded murderer but he did have a broad mind, when it came to trying to move forward on Hindu intercommunal relations

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Godse and other Hindu MS were extremely anti-caste. Godse had worked on inter-caste dining for some years before killing Gandhi.
Savarkarite/Arya Samaj movements were explicitly anti Caste. Hindutva is best seen as a reformist Hindu defense movement IMO.
To be honest, RSS wasn’t this anti-caste – lot a Golwalkar’s writings also appear like Varna apologia – where he blamed fall of Buddhism to Islam on lack of Varna.
But today most Hindutva folks r pretty anti-caste. Even today VHP is more violently anti-caste than RSS.

Atleast threat of Islam opened few eyes on original sin of Hinduism

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

Well Golwalker was right to some degree. Hinduism’s insane endogamy culture and hardcore tribalism made it likely more resilient than Buddhism. But he was right likely for the wrong reasons. Overall,caste has done more harm than good.

India needs to get over it’s feudalism. It went on so freaking long that you have so many genetically distinct micropopulations. This degree of heterogeneity coupled with clear power hierarchies and occupational partitioning has guaranteed made for an unequal and unmeritocratic equilibrium.

Ambedkar always strikes me as interesting. Even he went on to say goofy stuff like Dalits are long lost Kshytrias. Just why.

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Ambedkar always strikes me as interesting. Even he went on to say goofy stuff like Dalits are long lost Kshytrias. Just why.
He was reading too much into names Divodasa and Sudas i guess. He says Fallen KSH and fallen Buddhists (brahmins ) too.

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Well AASI seems to make Indians unique – Time for Indians to own the uniqueness.
It will take time though.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

For the Western elite and their local compradors, this long term endogamy and caste based occupational partitioning is very appealing in staving off challenges to Neo liberal order. The flip side of growing India’s soft power (yoga, Bollywood, celebration of democracy) is that western elites see a model to emulate as there is no more frontier to expand and equilibrium is most prized

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

I don’t get the degree of hate it gets. I see all the layers. But this much? What is so vile and offputting about aasi?

I am probably about 1/3 aasi and I like myself.I could be 100% magically tomorrow, and I’d still like myself. Like who cares

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

yes that nonsense goes on. Again I think it comes down manifestation of phenotypic hate.

If S Indians were straight up lighter on average, you would see the reverse.

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

though on the whole there’s very little caste/region prejudice for indian Americans, there is some, and I’ve seen/heard north indiand dissing south indians to whites. e.g., “we don’t eat weird looking food like south indians” or “we are not dark small people.” perhaps i’m wrong, but I’ve never Chinese do this sort of thing with white people (though since i am familiar with Chinese regional stuff, my Chinese students will joke about their various stereotypes in a playful way; e.g., north Chinese are scared of firey south Chinese)

Yeah, I remember u made the exact pt with Kushal on ur podcast on caste – which remains one of the best BP podcasts IMO. Regionalism is definitely stronger in India. And what Warlock says about West Asian passing is firmly part of the caste issues and imagination.

Sadly in Upper caste the backlash again Reservations (unfair IMO) is making a lot of UCs extremely casteist wrt Reservations. I support Reservations (esp SC ST) but doubt the usefullness of it time to time – especially given the casteist backlash

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

There is some upper caste backlash for sure but some begrudging acceptance as consensus mostly.

The issue is OBCs. When Jats of Haryana, Reddys of Andhara, Yadavs of gangetic plain, Patels of Gujarat, and Marathas of Maha all want to play the same game and riot for reservation status, they are essentially trying to violently subvert the reservation norm. They are the plurality and hold the most power in their respective states.

They also tend to live in villages and run the local judiciary via corrupt Panchayats, are land owning,and have more honor culture, hence more phenomena like infanticide and less check caste based violence.

Humans are obviously heavily shaped by the conditions they live in and the external incentive structures most immediately around them.

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago

what Suhag is saying seems to be very similar to what Muslim apologists say – Jihad is an internal struggle for personal betterment LOL or Burqa has nothing to do with Islam.

Maybe that’s whats the aim here – create similar noises as Muslims so Hindus can get the support which Muslims get in the west – esp from the Left

Gupt
Gupt
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-differences-between-headscarves-that-Muslim-women-wear


Afghana explains that burka is cultural garb that predates islam; Zarathustra roots.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago

For what its worth I am mistaken for a Muslim > 50% of the time.

After that NPR piece I had a couple of white people bring up caste in some chat groups i am part of saying how it is a problem etc. But I never really heard anything about it before then from non-browns.

Indian people also never talked about caste, but I can recall a time when an Indian fob person asked me my last name in sort of a random context. Which in hindsight I guess was an attempt to figure out caste.

Then there are also various caste based networking associations.

Most of the popular Hindu sects in the west (BAPS, Arya Samaj, Hare Krishnas etc) are anti caste reformist sects .

Overall I face an order of magnitude more Islamophobia related racism (also very very low tbh) than anything Hindu related. Caste never really comes up at all.

Numinous
Numinous
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

Which in hindsight I guess was an attempt to figure out caste.

Or region?

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago

Some thoughts on skin colour and Latin American racial categories:

Onge people seem to be darker than more sub Saharan Africans with the exception of South
Sudanese.

So I thinking “Mulatto” is more appropriate than “Mezito” to describe brown looking South Asians?

I get that India AASI and onge are only distantly related. And also both are genetically more related to East Eurasians / native Americans than Africans.

But just going by looks I think the African admixture Spanish terminology is more apt. Lots of brown people can pass for black (for eg Indian tech tycoon Shiv Nadar).

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

yeah the triracial latin American scheme and the fact that “pure types” of each exist are the two nails in the coffin to the argument that the region is racial milieu comparator to S Asia. I think it’s time that people, including myself, stop using it, whether as a novel point or in response to arguments; it just isn’t accurate/

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

RE (Google translated): Prison for the family, they shaved a Muslim woman because of her connection with a Serb

The parents, uncle and aunt of a young Bosnian Muslim woman, whose head was shaved because she was seeing a young Serb Christian, were sentenced to one year in prison in FRANCE.

The girl and her boyfriend’s family members told the court that she was taken to a room where four adults beat her and her uncle shaved her.

Her parents, uncle and aunt admitted “only one or two slaps” and said that her father shaved her to punish her after she had been on the run with a three-year-old boy for four days.

“My parents beat me with their hands and feet,” said the young Muslim woman, explaining that they “opposed marriage and their relationship because of religion.”

Her family members deny that version and claim that they did not beat the girl, and the father says that he “just shaved her, and her mother slapped her twice”.

However, that explanation, along with a serious medical examination – broken ribs and numerous hematomas, due to which the girl spent two weeks in the hospital, was not convincing enough for the judges.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

I am just happy they didn’t murder her. It is likely she will be married off soon.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

France expelled the Muslim family from Bosnia, after beating their daughter and shaving her hair because she expressed a desire to marry a Serb, the French Ministry of Internal Affairs announced.

The ministry stated that five members of the girl’s family in the eastern city of Besançon were deported to Sarajevo this morning, October 24.

The statement adds that the underage girl will be taken care of by social services, and when she reaches the adult age, she will acquire the right to reside in France.

French media reported in August that the family had beaten a 17-year-old Muslim girl from Bosnia and cut her hair off her head because she wanted to marry a 20-year-old Serb.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

https://theprint.in/national-interest/trump-or-biden-doesnt-matter-to-india-us-ties-as-theyre-in-a-full-strategic-embrace/529935/

“In Goswami Tulsidas’s Ramcharitmanas, an irate Lord Ram lays down an important principle in all relationships, whether among human beings or nations. “Bin bhay hote na preet (nobody loves you unless they fear you).” He might have said it then to justify exercising his own formidable strengths, but it also works in reverse.

…… Today, no such hesitations remain. A choice is made, in Washington and New Delhi. It is a full embrace. It is also bipartisan in both countries, especially in the US, where a change within a week is a real possibility. That is the reason this 2+2 is taking place even a week before the Americans vote.”

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Is there a source that discusses the differences between the ramcharitmanas vs original/as close as possible to the original version of ramayana

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago

The word caste is problematic. It does not capture any of the complexities of Jati and Varna.

There isn’t a Varna problem (no riots) in Indian society today – but there are very strong Varna based safeguards in Indian society. Example – Indian businessmen keep on trying to enter the Lok Sabha ( Lower House of parliament) but are thwarted or relegated to powerless positions. Of course, there are politicians who have built up businesses but never the other way around. Indian society has a strong aversion to Baniyas ending up in administrative positions (Hemu). A Trump trajectory can never happen in India.

The endogamy that is seen has no relation to current Varna but is possibly the remnants of past Varna that was centred in a village setting.

Jati is much more temporal than Varna, it’s manifestations in politics have very specific grievances. And political compulsions (Maya allying with Brahmins) act as a breaker for the extremist factions in every level of Indian society. So Jati Politics is a welcome thing, it quenches the extremist voices. And Varna safeguards act against centralisation of power (pillarisation).

Anglophones have zero comprehension of the seafloor – they merely gaze at the surface thanks to an outdated lexicon.

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

A new paper — spanning the period from 5000 to about 500 BCE — has been published with startling implications: It states that steppe communities did not undertake large-scale migrations; they generally lived in their respective environmental zones. Steppe theory, however, argues that large scale migration was a feature of Steppes. The study raises the following questions:

1. How did technologies, such as wagons, metal usage, domestic horses, etc. spread?
2. How could PII and Tocharian undertake long range migrations thousand of Kilometres long? Why don’t we see the proof on the ground?

References
Diet and subsistence in Bronze Age pastoral communities from the southern Russian steppes and the North Caucasus

Numinous
Numinous
3 years ago
Reply to  timepaas

It states that steppe communities did not undertake large-scale migrations

Where does this paper say that? I checked it out and the only occurrence of the word “migration” is in one of its references (to a Lazaridis paper). The abstract doesn’t say anything like what you state above. I confess I didn’t read the full paper though.

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago
Reply to  Numinous

Large scale migrations — spanning several hundred kilometers and across multiple environmental zones — were not a general feature of the Steppes; people were not very mobile in those times. They mention this in various sections, e.g., the conclusion section:

“”
The Bronze Age is widely considered a time of increased mobility that allowed for an inter-regional spread of innovations, raw materials and goods in the North Caucasus area. Archaeogenetic investigations of human burials from central Europe point to substantial population shifts being associated with people who originated in contexts of the Yamnaya culture [90, 91]. On the other hand, the light stable isotope data presented here indicate human home ranges that did not regularly cross the transitions between different environmental zones.
“”

A lot more research is needed right now in my opinion as there is ADNA evidence too, as mentioned in the paper.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  timepaas

Have you taken the time to read it timepaas or are you just passing on the memes?

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago
Reply to  timepaas

@Everyone
I read it. @Razib is right; this study in itself proves nothing. However, it does argue that large scale migration was not a regular feature.

I was interested in discussing the theories regarding the spread of the Steppe people. What do you all think? How did Steppe people spread? Was it a very slow or fast process? How did various technologies spread?

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

Sad because India would do better under more capitalist minded banias. The culture is more conducive to growth.

Diaspora Indian
Diaspora Indian
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

For real growth you still need a communitarian spirit, the “Capitalist mind” is already present in India, sadly it is more along the lines of “hoarde as much wealth as possible and growth for me me me”

Best hope for India would be a mass exodus of native English speaking diaspora members from the West into India to form a new elite, this elite would have no caste consciousness and all linguistic barriers would be negligible and based purely on English dialect (American, British, Australian, Kiwi etc)

What could catalyse such a remigration is anyone’s guess.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

That’s true. Caste, ethnic, and religious unity/tolerance is important but under a secular and consistent context. There are still enough goofy socialist bastions at the state level and ongoing Naxalite insurgencies on the fringes. There is also way too much pandering to different religious entities. This stuff needs to be reigned in. India needs its Ataturk.

I am happy Modi is at least breaking down protectionist barriers somewhat. He is too religious for my taste and attempted a few too many schemes without the best economic thought input, but he is now trending towards more market based reform that will have short term pains but long terms gains. And he is one of the few political leaders to be able to get away with it, perhaps the only one this current generation will see

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Societies in general are more receptive to Socialism when there are certain groups who are perceived to be benefiting exclusively from capitalism and free markets at the expense of others. In early 20th century, Slavs latched on to Marxism as a tool to first push out the “Germanic” elite. If you look at India, most of the socialist posturing in Bengal is anti Marwari feeling. If Bengalis had their own trading/mercantile class/caste which was integrated with peasant/cultivating class then the story would have been very different. Similarly in MH, Marathas are in competition with Brahmins and together they are in competition with Gujaratis,Sindhis and Parsis in Mumbai. Overall MH is still business friendly as long as you nod to local sensibilities. In Punjab, the current farm reform bill is seen as benefiting reliance at the cost of jats and Sikhs. The real sustainable way for free markets to entrench in India is having successful entrepreneurs from across the caste hierarchy.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

As I have stated repeatedly,
“Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution”

Theodosius Dobzhansky, 1973

“Nothing in S Asia Makes Sense Except in the Light of the Steppe to AASI ratio”

People may not know words like Steppe or AASI. But all surrogate markers from skin color to “sharp” features point towards that direction.

thewarlock, 2019

Haleem gang is a minor but important influence. Krumpet gang is even more minor.

Jai Shri Ameen
May the Jungle father give you strength
May the Sky father smile upon you
May the River mother bless you

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/farmers-burn-effigies-of-pm-modi-ambani-and-adani-160152

They burning effigies. Interesting. Hatred of bania corporates will only rise. It is unfortunate the some have to disproportionately suffer for long term progress. I do feel for their woes. But protectionism is not the answer.

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

You do understand the political Varna camps, right? – Congress is the group of “de-racinated/enlightened” Brahmins (Chacha first) working for the upliftment of “Sudras”. Whereas BJP is the “Bania” party that has radicalised the degraded Kshatriya OBCs to take up Hindutva.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

Enough shudra OBCs are allied with BJP. BJP is succeeding because of OBC allies. It is more regional now than caste based. I think you are referring to more of old order. Currently is mostly regionalist S Indians, Punjabis, and Bengalis who are anti BJP. Even Shiv Sena is lucky with the stunt they pulled because Marathas support BJP and they thought their vote for Sena was a BJP vote. Gujarati OBCs like Patels are hardcore pro BJP.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

“Currently is mostly regionalist S Indians, Punjabis, and Bengalis who are anti BJP.”

Less-Hindu regions

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@warlock Since you mentioned this and the Patel affirmative action agitation stuff in another comment.

Guj patidars are not currently granted OBC status ie they are general category. This is what the reservation protests are about.

There is political tension with OBC groups as they don’t want to have to share the OBC quota with patidars.

This is relevant because the leader of the patels agitating for OBC status supports congress.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

yes that’s my whole general point. UCs are mixed on support of AA and don’t have power in numbers to change it anyway.

The real death knell will he OBCs rioting and using numbers and power to grab it. Ironically, it is more Congress I supported because of pattern of caving into regional casteist pressure under the guise of “federalism.” The strong center BJP actually tried to stand up to these rioters and shut them down.

BJP are more of SC and dalit sympathizers than Congress I in this sense, a party who will desert them as soon as the casteist OBC base agitates.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

It is not just bania hatred. It is local Vs outsider. When you have banias integrated into society like in TN, AP or even in KA, you don’t get this level of animosity. This is root cause of support for socialism in India.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
3 years ago

VCK protests in Tamil Nadu seeking ban on Manusmriti
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenewsminute.com/article/vck-protests-tamil-nadu-seeking-ban-manusmriti-136086%3famp
would like to know his views on quran lol

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

“Less-Hindu” region

td
td
3 years ago

@Nasimhadeva, what does he mean by banning manusmriti ? Is MS being used by indian government as a law book ? How many people in india had ever heard of manusmriti before internet penetration ? Afaik, the only guys who diligently read MS and publicize it by burning it are these left radicals ?

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
3 years ago
Reply to  td

“the only guys who diligently read MS and publicize it by burning it are these left radicals”

couldn’t have said it any better. If this guy just wanted to ban MS because of the reasons he puts forward and not with any ulterior motive, like strawmanning hindutva, he would’ve also wanted to ban quran, bible etc too

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago

Mughal is the Persian word for Mongol

I have to say this – True Indology keeps surprising me every now and then with his nuggets.

https://twitter.com/TIinExile/status/1317158317362302976

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

The Mughals never actually called themselves Mughals, they were known as Gurkani / Timuri.. Babur had patrilineal descent from Timur, and Genghis from his mother’s side. During Taimur’s time, having Mongol ancestry was all the rage and while Taimur did not have it, he wanted to make sure his descendants had so he married into it.

Mughal was a Persian derogatory word later used for the Mughals. Babur never claimed himself Mongol rather he despised the Mongols and used to say that “Mischief and devastation must always be expected from the Mughals horde and ‘ ….. were the Mongols a race of angles, it would still be a vile nation’.”

All in all, the ‘Mughals’ that ruled India had very little if anything to do with Mongols.

So ‘TrueIndology’ is misguiding people a bit, like always.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

some pak nationalist guy on quora likes to argue constantly that this is a misnomer. he could be right, but I am not that well informed on this topic. But the guy’s argumentation is along the lines of Mughals are originally Uzbek, something we can all expect. But that the paternal line descends through Timur and is thus turkic rather than Mongol.

Maybe Razib can enlighten us on this nuance

Numinous
Numinous
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Correction: Mughals weren’t Uzbek. Babar was a Turk (at least patrilineally) who belonged to the ruling dynasty (on and off) of Ferghana and Samarkand, and who was driven out of his homeland by the Uzbeks (which is why Ferghana and Samarkand lie in a country named Uzbekistan today). He despised Uzbeks for this reason.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Numinous

I think Mughals, Mongol, Turk, Uzbeks et all , for Indians its all the same, just like for the Americans all browns are same.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Gupt

May be true to some degree. But be careful. Online Jatt trolls will use these minority cases to claim only the light skinned more west eurasian looking peoples are true jats and rest are fake jats to distance when reality is only minority of typical N Indian looking Jats are do called SC ones faking it.

Remember SC have big incentive to keep last names for benefits. Never underestimate the Jatt racialists. They are hell bent on proving how “west asian and foreign looking” they are

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@Warlock Any reason why Jats are not found after Western U P ? For example: Jats are not found in Central UP, East UP or Magadh belt. What could be the reason ? Why in UP they are only confined till west UP, and even in W UP most are in bordering districts of UP with Hry and Rajasthan. Whereas Brahmins all over India and Rajputs are easily till Magadh belt in East

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  RS

@RS
Probably because Jaats/Jatts are not a caste. At least in the varna sense (tiered system with Brahmins, Kshatriya, etc.) of the word. They are part of NW South Asia’s “avarna” groups (mostly restricted to Jammu, Punjab, Haryana, West UP and parts of Rajasthan) who assimilated to various extents into the preexisting Indo-Aryan Vedic culture.

Also, it’s not just Jatts but also groups such as Kamboj, Arain, Saini, Awan, Tarkhan/Ramgarhia, Gujjar, etc. who fit this mold. All groups restricted to NW South Asia.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

Also, it’s not just Jatts but also groups such as Kamboj, Arain, Saini, Awan, Tarkhan/Ramgarhia, Gujjar, etc. who fit this mold. All groups restricted to NW South Asia.
@Paindu
A little disagree, there are some Muslim kamboj in Central UP, do Google Mali groups for Saini. Awan is an obscure group ( so can’t comment). Tarkhan/Khati are there in many states. So, not true.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@Paindu Gujjars are spread out, not confined to NW.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@Paindu is it because Jat migration happened later than Brahmins, Rajputs, Vaishyas etc and was mostly on foot compared to war like horses.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

I don’t think they were part of original caste genesis. But it can be argued they pretty function like a caste. Castes are just mini tribes of endogamous people really who do similar occupation. They pretty much fit that bill.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@RS
AFAIK, Kamboj are not native to UP. Their origins lie in greater Punjab/Pakistan and potentially around Gandhara before that. Tarkhan/Ramgarhia + Khatri are native to greater Punjab (incl Haryana). They are migrants to places like UP or Gujarat.

Also, Gujjars supposedly originate from Rajasthan. They later spread to and settled in the Punjab, Jammu/AJK/Kashmir or parts of KPK. Many of these avarna groups can be found out NW South Asia today but that does not make them native to their regions.

@thewarlock

Functioning like a caste does not make them a caste. They fall out of the Vedic Indo-Aryan varna caste system and are not found natively in any region outside of NW South Asia. However, I do believe that by adapting Vedic Indo-Aryan culture, they “blended” into it over time.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@paindu there is no proof of Gujjar migrating from south rajasthan and modern day gujarat. The gurjara word being used is as a term for place there since time immemorial. No concrete proof to suggest that term was used for a community. For example even Medieval Muslim Gujarat sultan dynasty was called gujareshwar, gurjara etc. Similar any clan ruler who ruled over Gujarat or South Rajasthan was named with that term gujareshwar. So, no concrete proof of any relation of that ancient term with a today’s community. FYI, Gujjar community is not even found today in south Rajasthan and Gujarat.

Secondly Google Khati/ a term for tarkan community it is there in many North states.
Google Mali for Saini. It is used in some states.
Punjabi khatri case is different.
And if I use your logic, brahmins have also migrated, so has bania or rajputs in many regions, this is true based on their clans. The only thing is Jat couldn’t move beyond West UP? What could be the reason for it? That was my initial questions
Don’t you think you are contradicting with your answer here if some converted Kambojs whose roots are supposed to be in NW can be found in Central UP, why are Jats not found there ? Was there any fencing on outskirts West UP for this particular group!! Just curious.

Akhilesh
Akhilesh
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@Paindu
Do you think Punjabi sikh samples(from Uk) are overall representative of Indian punjabi biradris?, since biradris are somewhere between 60-70% of Punjab population.
I think they are fairly representative, They are bit more AASI shifted than Jatt sikhs and bit less AASI shifted than Tarkhans, since jatt sikhs are around 25-30% of punjab population and remaining 40% of population are occupied by other biradris?
What do you think?

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@paindu many if not most non-Brahmin castes are regional all over India. Not confined to the north west.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@Paindu bro, Mali samaj who use Saini are there in Haryana, Rajasthan as well as UP including beyond West UP in Central UP and Rohilkhand as well. I checked from somewhere. So, ithey are definitely outside punjb.

“Regarding, Mali and Saini, it is the same community. In Haryana, they are called Mali. However, Sainis are not found natively outside greater Punjab”.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  RS

@RS
I never specified that Gujjar migrated from Southern Rajasthan let alone Gujarat. However, I believe the general theory has them originating in Rajasthan. In fact, the Damgaard study Indian Gujjar samples were from Rajasthan. The Pakistani Gujjar samples are from the nomadic Gujjar community of KPK.

Regarding Khati, I spoke to my Tarkhan acquaintance. Apparently, Khati are the original community associated with carpentry in Punjab and other parts of Northern India. Tarkhans took over their role in Punjab but they do not intermarry with them and see themselves as distinct.
Of course, Brahmins and to a lesser extent Bania and Rajputs have migrated throughout India. However, the Brahmins did initially to “spread the Indo-Aryan tool kit” while the Bania did as a merchant community (similar to Khatri who can be found from Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan to Gujarat and UP).

As for Jatts, they are a farming/landowning community. So, at the very least, there was no reason to migrate past the Indus/Ganges plains for better land or work.

Finally, regarding Kamboj, AFAIK, their original occupation was small scale farming. After partition, many who left the “greater” Punjab became merchants and settled throughout Northern India.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@Akhilesh

Yes, the UK Punjabi Sikh samples should be fairly representative of most Indian Punjabi biradaris. Their coordinates were posted on anthrogenica and I’ve messed around with the dataset on G25 and PCA’s.

UK Sikhs are mostly Jatt followed by Tarkhan with smaller amounts of Gujjars, Khatris, Kamboj, Saini, Rajput etc.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@Paindu thanks. You do make sense on most point.
“As for Jatts, they are a farming/landowning community. So, at the very least, there was no reason to migrate past the Indus/Ganges plains for better land or work.”
True but the central UP also has Ganges, so does East UP and Magadh belt having river Ganga for agricultural lands. I think only reason jats didn’t went to these areas could be them being later addition to the existing society in West UP itself. So, their migration was less than say brahmins, banias, or rajputs etc.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@Paindu Mali and Saini case? What is your view on this. Because in most areas Mali samaj guys use Saini surname. Also who are Labana in Punjab?

Who are Manhas Clan in Punjab ? Mohyals in punjb? I guess you are from punjab. So you would be knowing all this.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

@RS

Regarding, Mali and Saini, it is the same community. In Haryana, they are called Mali. However, Sainis are not found natively outside greater Punjab.

Labana are originally a salt trading community of Punjab. Though, they are now mostly agriculturalists.

Manhas are a Rajput clan but in some instances, you can find Manhas or even Rana Jatt Sikhs. These names were likely adopted by Jatts in Punjab.

Mohyal are a Brahmin community of Punjab and from the broader Saraswat Brahmin community. Most are Hindu but some identify as Sikh and some converted to Islam. I believe many Mohyal of Punjab used to live in West Punjab/Potohar/Jammu areas.

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

“Remember SC have big incentive to keep last names for benefits. ” — @thewarlock, afaik, caste certificates are not tied to keeping surnames so, one can get caste certificate even if he/she uses different surnames. I know many dalits who use the last name Singh, some even use surnames like Yadav, Chauhan, Goyal.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  td

“caste certificates are not tied to keeping surnames”
…..or Religion

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

““caste certificates are not tied to keeping surnames”
…..or Religion” — , but SC certificate is indeed tied to religion where once an SC/dalit guy becomes either a Muslim or Christian,he can’t get SC certificate. He may be eligible for OBC reservations in some states as in some states, SC converts to christianity are placed in OBC list.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/the-battle-after-dussehra-5408129/lite/?__twitter_impression=true

The battle after Dussehra

“The people here is not people understood in a democratic sense; it is the norms of the people. That Ram who can vanquish Ravana cannot vanquish cultural norms; for this he needs outside assistance, the help of poets and seers.

Ram is reduced to pathetic self-doubt over truth. Sita puts him out of his misery and constant vacillation, by settling the question of her truth, once and for all, by returning to her mother Earth. Of course, Ram is in a sense broken by this grief. Rescuing Sita from Ravana was easier; rescuing her truth from cultural norms, the weight of public opinion, almost impossible. In fact, there is something so merciless about those cultural norms that they invert everything: Due process becomes injustice, the accusers become the accused.

While Ram and Sita may be theologically incomplete without each other, the weight of gender norms makes their union impossible. It is almost as if Valmiki ends up saying: The battle that ends at Vijayadashmi was a cake walk. The battle that comes after is the one Sita will have to fight alone: There is no redeemer like Ram who will fight this battle. The conventional truth is not her ally. Sita will one day take the initiative. And then see all other truths fall by the wayside.”

RS
RS
3 years ago

Here almost all are talking about some 4000 yrs migration which is long time back with no clear memories. Do we not know that many Tom Dick Harry came after them till Islamic invaders? Example Parthians, Indo-Greek, Kushanas, Sakas, Hunas, the list is too long as well as some obscure nomadic migration of Non-Ms group from near Bolan pass. Any analysis on them? Who are related to these Indo-Greek, Parthian, Kushanas, Sakas, Hunas etc?

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

@Razib okay how is this Scythian being differentiated from Indo-Aryans?. I am not a geneticist, but common sense says they would be carrying similar components to Indo-aryans. Let us not forget Saka/ Hunas/Kushanas who entered here were mostly same to Indo-aryans (if any) , just they entered late ( time frame difference), and weren’t initially accepted by the supposed Indo-aryans present here ( if any such thing was there).
As far as History is concerned, Parthians, Indo-Greeks, Sakas, Kushanas, Hunas migration is accepted even in any Hindu or local history. So, as per history there is no question mark on scythian incomers from any side as compared to Indo-aryans.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  RS

‘Bolan’ is a Serbian word which means ‘painful’. We already wrote about this. There are also some other Serbian toponyms, which remained from Aryans period, in its proximity including ‘Leepa’ (i.e. phonetic – Lipa) meaning ‘linden’, the place where was recent conflict btw India and Pakistan. All toponyms that contain ‘mir’ are Serbian.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

PS: Quick skimming of this thread found some other Serbian words in various contexts – ravana, ram, kamboja, ravnas, gollas, mali, rana, laban…

Anonymous
Anonymous
3 years ago

Actually, Bolan is a verb: to speak.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago

UPSC results came out today. To give some idea of the odds: a million candidates and about 400-ish seats (including 50% reserved seats). Going by the numbers it is easier to become an American Astronaut or win an olympic medal than getting into IAS(<150 seats). One of the brightest guys I know is feeling so bad for not having made it. On the other hand I had known the people at the newest Indian Unicorn startup Razorpay, quite bright people first became famous for making sdslabs at IIT-R and casually hacking into the university computers in their first year. In 5 years these guys built a company now worth a billion dollars, just 3 years ago one of them admitted that he really didn't know what was going to become of the company and whether it is worth the effort. Having known both the sides involved I can't even quantify the amount of talent going to waste in this mad rat race of UPSC. The exam is clearly random, if you work reasonably hard at cram school you get into a good engineering college, but UPSC is sickeningly unpredictable.

Apthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

@bhimrao

If you really think getting a UPSC spot is harder than winning a place in NASA’s astronaut class, then god help your logic skills. There is really no comparison my dude. Nowhere near the same level of arbitrariness, competition and selectivity. Not even in the same planet.

Apthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

Case in point: Jonny Kim, one of the candidates from the most-impressive NASA astronaut candidate class of 2017.

“ Jonathan Kim (born 1984) is an American US Navy lieutenant (and former SEAL), physician, and NASA astronaut.”

No UPSC candidate comes close to that level of achievement. And the other astronaut candidates are just as impressive, in other disciplines.

And it’s not like Jonny had a rosy childhood, either: his father was shot to death in his own home by police, when Jonny was just a child; they responded to a domestic violence call and he brandished a gun, leading to a fatal shootout. Makes his achievements even more impressive. Phenomenal group of people in general.

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

@Bhimrao, only prelims results came out, Mains and interview exans are yet to happen .
Re razor pay, one of the founders was a schoolmate lol.

Apthk
3 years ago

I do not like Pakis and Arabs. That is all. Everyone else is like family.

Narasingha Deva
Narasingha Deva
3 years ago

https://theprint.in/opinion/himalayan-bears-sleeping-less-sarus-cranes-not-nesting-in-monsoon-climate-change/530341/

Himalayan bears sleeping less and Sarus cranes not nesting in monsoon only. That’s bad news

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

The name Mogul is derived from the Persian form of the name Mogol for Mongol, which comes from the Aryans – mangula, evil, misfortune, trouble, but also a mistake or violation of the principle, whence the medical term “Mongolism”. The word Mogul is misinterpreted from the Greek ‘mogul’ – the great – which was also derived from the Aryans – meg’a – great.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

upsc has more people allowed to try. the most difficult things limit even those who have a shot at attempting directly via years of direct and indirect prescreening and also require more of a mix of different skills than only paper testing

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

khabib is an inspiration for many. Some will even convert to Islam or take their faith more seriously because of him. He is the new Ali.

Hindus need to produce such men of mythical stature in sports. Not too hopeful about in the near future…

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

http://www.republicworld.com/amp/world-news/us-news/nikki-haley-courts-us-indian-for-trump-says-stopped-aid-to-terror-harbouring-pakistan.html

One Jat the world can get behind. I hope she is Madam President one day. Much better than leftists like Kamala

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock
Don’t really want to delve too deep into politics but based on my observations, the majority of diaspora Sikhs are not fans of Nikki Haley and that’s putting it lightly.

It might may be partially related to the dichotomy of Indian nationalism between US Sikhs and Hindus but based on my experience, most Sikhs here lean very left with Hindus having more variety on the political spectrum.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

I am telling you man, it is Khalistani influence. Sikhs are conservative in terms of valuing the family, hardwork, belief in using charity rather than welfare to help the poor, and keeping government out of personal life.

The thing is that the Khalistan movement is allied with the Islam crew and the Left heavily courts that crew. You have a socialist islamist global nexus. And the Hindu and gangetic plain hating elements of the Khalistani movenent of the West have made an unholy alliance with various Islamic backed entities, including sadly the Pak ISI, one of the best funded global jihadist sponsors in the world.

Also, playing the Woke game is easier for identity politics. And Jat Sikhs who are heavily influenced by Khalistan movement are the epitome of identity politics. The Left loves it.

Hindus are more of a mixed bag for sure. But really it is N Indian Hindus. Bengali and S Indian ones, especially Brahmins, still lean hard left due to their unfortunate misunderstanding of leftist economics that has become cultural at this point.

The most ironic thing I see is BLM support, when the AASI is so heavily denigrated, though indirectly, by much of the Pak and Birdari Sikh crowd. I have heard them talk shit about “chamars and churras” even in the West and enough slander about dark short ugly S Indians and conniving Gujaratis. They support one form of black for their political convenience. But disown the Black that is their minority ancestry and present in their own countries. SAD.

Also read some quora posts about Punjabis “losing aryan features 2/2 race mixing.” I mean it is so extreme. So much of this desire for more state autonomy has nothing to do with protecting “Punjabi culture.” Hell the test of N India has embraced the shit out of it, courting sometimes to a laughable degree. So much of it is a lineage protection game, one sadly with heavy racialist underpinnings

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock

Not going to get into too much detail but I’ll share some of my thoughts.

I don’t think it’s necessarily Khalistani influence. Most US Sikhs are settled in or near highly liberal areas of blue states while those in Canada are near the large left leaning metro areas (Toronto and Vancouver). Also, many of us are also not even religious yet are still left leaning (including myself).

As for identity politics, personally, I would argue that the right isn’t any better. They just go after the conservative “angry white man” vote while trying to convince black Americans that liberals/the left keep them “on the plantation” through welfare. For other minorities, many conservatives suggest white liberals have some “white savior complex” and believe we need to be saved. Honestly, it comes across as if conservative white Americans actually believe we really can’t think for ourselves or that white liberals believe we’re that “stupid.” Perhaps, a bit of both.

They talk about “individual rights and freedom” but the whole US political system is just so polarized and tribalistic.

Regarding Hindu Americans, most of the younger generation seems left leaning (at least those outside red states). I’ve spoken to a few people and they’ve told me that their parents are voting for Trump because he is “pro-India” and a huge critic of China (so their votes are influenced by Indian nationalism).

I imagine a lot of your thoughts on US Sikh behavior is based on personal experience but I wouldn’t read too much into quora posts. The internet tends to attract a lot of the extreme or outlier individuals who say things while hiding beyond anonymity.

There may be some “lineage protection” motivation for some individuals but for many Sikhism and Punjabiyat is intricately tied to their self-identity and they may feel that they want to preserve it as much as possible with that perspective modern Pakistan and India are kind of pushing away from it.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

One thing that clear tho, Niki does suck up to conservative Christians too much

She has even said Sikhs recognize Jesus as “son of god”

https://www.sikhpa.com/us-politician-claims-that-sikhi-acknowledges-jesus-as-the-son-of-god/

NM
NM
3 years ago

@Dathang

I have a genetics related question. Specifically need to reconcile percentages from two papers, is there a way to reach you over email?

I would appreciate your help about this.

td
td
3 years ago

” in UP dalit castes are very distinct from non-dalits, and brahmins and rajputs from everyone else.” — As i wrote that even in UP, as per narasimhan’s paper, Ahirs/Yadavs turn out to be similar to rajputs in terms of Steppe and AASI(i assume the ‘kshatriya durgavanshi’ samples in that paper were rajputs) .

@Razib , i have one more question, does “AASI correlating with varna in a region” turn out to be true in the historical region of ‘rajputana’ or present day Rajasthan ? Apart from rajasthani jats here who would have lower AASI but do rajputs of rajasthan have lower AASI than some other land owning castes of rajasthan like Ahirs, Gujjars, Dhakads, Meenas ?

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Are you from Rajasthan?

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  td

they don’t. look at Reich data. They have AASI not THAT diff from banias. Many are around S Indian Brahmin degree of AASI. Jats are an anomaly. Rajputs are firmly within varna trends.

Akhilesh
Akhilesh
3 years ago
Reply to  td

@td
Gujjars and Ahirs seem to have lower AASI than Rajputs, Personally i have seen around 10 samples from Rajasthani rajputs, they were similar to UP Rajputs and tbh, they were bit less AASI shifted than South Indian Brahmins.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Akhilesh

As far as I have heard many OBC groups also use Rajput word nowadays. I think he was asking for those in general category.

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  RS

“As far as I have heard many OBC groups also use Rajput word nowadays” — The only ones who do that in my knowledge are ravnas/gollas of rajasthan who are the progenies of rajput lords and their concubines and lodhis of UP. Afaik, the so-called kshatriya_UP samples in pop gen papers belong to ‘real’ thakurs of UP.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  td

My friend in UP lodh and khangar both OBC group also use Rajput surname. Same case in MP with Sondhiya using Rajput word. This is similar to some Gosain and others claiming themselves brahmins.

td
td
3 years ago

“look at Reich data. ” — Narasimhan’s paper didn’t have data of Gujjars, dhakads of rajasthan.
Pathak et al had samples from gujjars of rajasthan who when modelled in terms of Iran_N, Steppe and AASI had less AASI than “kshatriya “(these kshatriya samples belong to UP thakurs iirc) .

” Rajputs are firmly within varna trends. ” —- Question i was trying to raise was whether rajputs really have lower AASI on average than *some* other non-jat farming, pastoralist castes of north and west.

Besides, from what i have read, rajput lords of rajasthan used to have concubines from different castes , progenies of some of whom were regarded as ‘proper rajputs’ while some were not (like ravna/gollas of rajasthan who used to be darogas and servants for their lords and weren’t regarded as proper rajputs) so i assume heterogenity among them .

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  td

ravna and gollas case is known. You are talking about Lodhs & Khangars in UP, Sondhiyas in Raj & MP and karadia ( guj ) I guess both are in OBC but are regarded as separate by them. based on below:
“from what i have read, rajput lords of rajasthan used to have concubines from different castes , progenies of some of whom were regarded as ‘proper rajputs’ “

td
td
3 years ago

“Personally i have seen around 10 samples from Rajasthani rajputs, they were similar to UP Rajputs and tbh, they were bit less AASI shifted than South Indian Brahmins.” — @Akhilesh, very interesting, may i ask where you saw them ?

Akhilesh
Akhilesh
3 years ago
Reply to  td

@td
In Anthrogenica forum, I can send you through mail if you want those samples,
Note: Only Harappa world results

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Akhilesh

hmm didn’t know ksyhtria were Thakurs in Reich. Thought they were rajputs. My misunderstanding then

What is there raw AASI number compared to S Indian Brahmins on admix?

Akhilesh
Akhilesh
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@warlock
Unfortunately, there are no g25 coordinates for Rajasthani Rajputs, I have seen their harappa world results which average out around 43-45% SI, so i think fairly similar to UP kshatriyas.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Akhilesh

thanks. I am 47% asi on harrapa so closer to S Brahmin average.Vanias tend to be around this and Punjabi Banias from what I recall. So your bit less ASI assessment is correct and makes sense on caste cline quite well actually. Gangetic plains banias tend to be like 50-52 % for some reason (maybe heavier asi people in density there mixed with?).

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Akhilesh

On harrapa there is only one written as rajasthan rajput that too can’t say if general category or some allied group like Sondhiya, Khangars, Ravnas, etc. They all will also write rajput. Only general or OBC can make it clear.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

As far as What thakurs/rajputs are considered same. Rajasthan ones also call themselves thakurs only. I guess Thakur is more like Chaudhary title used by many.

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  RS

“I guess Thakur is more like Chaudhary title used by many.” — @RS, yes, thakur is a title which in UP, has become synonymous with the kshatriyas/rajputs but in neighbouring state bihar, it’s used by many other castes like Maithili brahmin, Bhumihar , Nai(Barber caste) 🙂 .

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  td

How is the bhumihar case in East UP and Bihar?. As per British theory they were combo of clans from Brahmins and Rajputs. Though bhumihar themselves always claimed brahmin origin. But their clans tell something else story like lot of clans overlaps with brahmins but I guess some with rajputs as well.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  RS

Genetically they cluster with Brahmins.

But the British actually classified Bhumihars as shudras initially, as they are were far removed from the Brahmin culture. They underwent a period of sanskritization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhumihar#Varna_status

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

But I guess bhumihars clan overlap with brahmins in many areas but some clan also overlap with rajputs as well. For example Kinwar are bhumihar and rajputs as well. Rajnath is Rajput but of Kinwar Clan. Similar with bhumihar clans overlapping with brahmins like Pandey, Sharma, many with maithili brahmins.

td
td
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

@Sumit, not sure about the claim of bhumihars “going through the sanskritisation process recently” but apart from the fact the they are autosomally closer to brahmins, they also have similar gotras as that of the brahmins. Afaik, the word babhan(बाभन) which is used for bhumihars is actually a eastern prakrit variant of the word brahmin.
Mohyals of north-west are also removed from “brahmin culture” because of their martial pursuits but no one doubted/doubts their brahmin lineage afaik. As for why the bihari brahmins don’t consider bhumihars as brahmins, i believe this is because of a legend where it’s claimed that the king of magadha once asked for some thousands brahmins, the minister unable to find those many took men from other jaatis, adorned them with janeus and passed them off a brahmins.

“Similar with bhumihar clans overlapping with brahmins like Pandey, Sharma, many with maithili brahmins. ” — @RS, bhumihars of older gen used to have surnames like thakur, singh, sinha, rai while the newer ones have started using surnames like sharma, pandey, shukla etc 🙂

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Not completely true clans of bhumihar overlap with brahmins but some with rajputs as well like Kinwar Clan which is only in Bhumihar and Rajput but not in brahmins. Example Rajnath Singh is Kinwar Clan rajput. This was told to me by my one Rajput friend. Same case with few others.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Yaar I am not talking generic surnames but clan names. The real story is behind clans. For example there is Kinwar Clan of Bhumihars and Rajputs both but Kinwar clan is not in brahmins. So, My point is not regarding their overall brahmin ancestry, but I guess there are some clans of bhumihar overlapping with rajputs which are not present in brahmins.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  td

This is the reference for that from Wikipedia.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=sQcGAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

I am just going by what I read wrt to Bhumihars. I don’t actually know anything about this caste.

There is often some degree of misinformation about castes / topics I do know about in these comments. So take things with a grain of salt.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

See this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinwar . Believe me similarly old gazetteer also talks about many things.

td
td
3 years ago

@RS, i forgot about sonadhiya . Re Gosains, the claims of brahmin status by gosains is because of the fact that they were traditional priests in many shiva temples of the north as far as i know.
@Akhilesh, can you share your email address 🙂 ?

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Khangar as well lol

Akhilesh
Akhilesh
3 years ago
Reply to  td

@td
Yeah sure,
jackie060697@gmail.com

td
td
3 years ago

@Akhilesh bhai, i missed your email id ? . i remember the name but forgot the numerals , just write the numerals that followed the name in your email id, i can understand your intention of not keeping email id in a permanent comment.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

Right wing libertarian wing of republican party is not identity politics driven. But Christian Right is. Whole left at this point feels identity politics driven. Thank god Biden is the least on that spectrum.

Sikh support for socialist politics has to do with how left wing politicians who support socialist economic policies are also hard core Woke type aka grievance olympics connoisseurs, in part, IMO.

1984 was bad but people don’t even go into how Hindus were targeted by Khalistan movement within Punjab itself for like a decade prior. Diaspora has one sided picture. Then they go ahead and support the same left wing party that perpetrated the pogrom in India and shit on BJP as “nazis.” They also use false equivalence of magnitude by comparing it to the holocaust. I have heard all sorts of insane claims.Then their alliance with Pak is even weirder. Most aren’t like this but man when extreme ones call India genocidal then ally with Pak, the biggest perpetrator of S Asian genocide in the century with Bengal in 71, I just chuckle.

Then you have the likes JimmySingh in Kaneda who won’t even denounce a straight up Khalistani terrorist, responsible for worst Canadian terror attack in history. He also associates and cozies up with men known to have been involved in terrorism in movement in general. The radical elements and their association with leftist politics is clear as day.

And millenials in general tend to be Left. And Indians vote like 70% Democrat in the US. They live in liberal areas. So all of those points make sense. But one cannot ignore Khalistani politics and their association with far left politics and oppression olympics participants.

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock
Well, libertarians and republicans are not necessarily one in the same (despite agreeing on some issues). I was mostly focused on the Christian right and the whole “proud boy” portion of the party. Regardless, I don’t think you can completely separate white identity politics and US conservatives/Republicans.

I think you are overgeneralizing Sikh political support in the US being tied to Khalistan. In the US, the idea of Khalistan does not get anywhere the political attention/traction it does in Canada or even the UK for that matter. US left wing politicians don’t really court the Sikh vote from what I’ve observed (our numbers are just too small). Though, I agree that more socialist economic policies is a driving factor in voting trend for Sikhs.

Regarding 84, the Sikh diaspora has one picture and the Hindu diaspora/India nationals another. I don’t think that will change anytime soon. Regarding BJP, they might have handled 84 even worse than Congress had they been in power then. Who knows?

As for Pakistan, there is no reason for an ardent Khalistani to not align with them. They do support the cause after all (regardless of what happened in East Pakistan/Bengal).

Finally, with respect to Jagmeet, I won’t touch on it much. We’re not going to see eye to eye. However, he did eventually denounce Parmar and does not think he should be glorified by any Sikh.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Paindu

The what ifs are funny about BJP vs. Congress. One party has known conspirators doing those things still going unscathed day to day. And yeah I don’t think you or I will see eye to eye on this matter. But I do think Khalistan is a dangerous terrorist promoting movement and their alliance with the Jihadist promoting entity that is the ISI is disturbing. They ally with people who have committed worse genocides and have killed more Sikhs during era of partition and treat Sikhs worse with bride kidnappings and force conversions and support groups like Taliban who are killing Sikhs in Afghan whereas BJP offers them refuge and makes them part of united dharmic identity. It is very odd.

Only thing I see in common is racial. Because language sure as hell doesn’t save chamars from mistreatment. A lot of this comes down to surrogates that can be boiled down to steppe:aasi. The Khalistan movement is really more of a Jatt racialist movement in a lot of ways. Sikhism just seems like the cover to me.

He only denounced Parmar after severe backlash. It is like Trump and proud boys. At least Tradeau has come to his senses and has censured the Khalistani wing of the party. Jimmy will see when both reasonable Sikhs and Hindus migrating en masse now to Canada speak up at the perpetration of lies and alliance with terrorist ISI of Canadian Khalistanis. Not everyone can be brainwashed

Paindu
Paindu
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

@thewarlock

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a fan of Congress or the BJP but I can still take a step back and acknowledge that doesn’t mean the BJP would have handled 84 any better (even if it’s a “what if” scenario). Also, at least we’re both on the same page about 84 Congress conspirators/instigators walking freely/unscathed to this day. That’s part of why the diaspora community is still quite distrustful of India.

As for Khalistan, aligning with ISI does not necessarily mean they’re on the same page as the Taliban or other Jihadist groups. I only see them doing it for funding but I don’t follow these topics in detail. You don’t need ideological agreement when it comes to accepting money. Regarding partition, there were crimes and blood spilt on both sides (Muslim vs. Sikh/Hindu Punjabis). In the diaspora, we’ve moved passed these things and tend to get along fine with Pak Punjabis (especially in the GTA).

Clarifying, you mean the commonality between Pak Punjabis and Sikh Punjabis to the exclusion of Chamars? If so, there might be some truth to that but not something that can be readily observed consistently either way. I think it’s worth noting that the Khalistan movement had some Khatris, Tarkhan/Ramgarhia and Rajputs in high profile positions. It would be quite difficult to get them on board if it was just a “Jatt” movement with Sikhism as the cover. There was also support from lower caste Sikhs during the 80s. It wasn’t as simple as Jatts vs. everyone else dichotomy.

Regardless of the backlash, he denounced him. Has Trump denounced his boys yet? Last I remember, he told them to “stand back and stand by” and spent his time in the previous debate crying about antifa and the left.

Trudeau is a fairly astute politician IMO. Whether he has Sikh politicians in his cabinet who are separatist sympathizers or at the very least not pro India, he got the situation under control. As for your comment about “reasonable Sikhs and Hindus” migrating en masse to Canada, I don’t think the demographic shift is necessarily what you perceive them as. I’ve interacted with some recent Sikh youth migrants to the US and Canada. People espouse different ideas when you aren’t punished for free speech.

Akhilesh
Akhilesh
3 years ago

@td
ok problem solved
here are the results in the below pdf(download the pdf)
https://smallpdf.com/shared#st=7bd97263-06b8-497e-9640-c57ab862f364&fn=I+am+posting+Rajasthani+Rajput+results+here-converted.pdf&ct=1603644373700&tl=word&rf=link
6 samples are there,
7th sample here
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved
other than above 7 samples, i have seen 2 in reddit as well but unfortunately don’t have results right now, they were similar to above samples.(43-45%SI)

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  Akhilesh

These Rajput results are very similar to mine.
I’m a Rajasthani Jain from a community with claimed Rajput ancestors (stories from Jain literature going back up to a 1000 years, gotras, some customs bear this out somewhat). Gotra: Solanki

SIndian: 47%
Baloch: 34%
Caucasian: 5%
NE Euro: 6%
Siberian: 1%
NE Asian: 3%
Other: 4%
Also cluster with S Indian / Maharashtrian/Goan Brahmins in Harappa

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

bruh we have basically same results. Crazy my jain bruda

td
td
3 years ago

@justanotherlurker, very interesting. I remembr reading that rajputs used to have jain cocubines too some of who became very powerful. I believe it was Gulab Rai, an Oswal jain who became concubine of Maharaja Vijay Singh and later she was later granted a whole pargana as her jagir.

https://scroll.in/article/968253/gulabrai-of-marwar-revisiting-18th-century-rajputana-when-concubines-wielded-political-power

Justanotherlurker
Justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Td: Interesting. Didn’t know about Gulab rai but seems like a one off? Do you know of other examples? With how the society was structured and strict Purdah/ ghoonghat and segregation of women which was the norm even until 40 years ago I don’t see a possibility of this being a common occurrence for Jains. Also her Krishna worship mentioned in the article also shows her as atypical (not a Jain thing at all, although Kuldevi/ Shakti worship is).
FYI, the noble mentioned in the article – Singhvi Bhimraj – that sounds like a Jain name too.

Btw, are you Rajasthani and/or Rajput?
Thewarlock :
Not surprised that we have similar results – MaruGurjar was one large area ( and one language) until 500 years ago and lots of Gujarati Jains are Marwaris who migrated 300 to 500 years ago and some even much more recently. Being familiar with both languages and cultures it’s easy to spot the common substrate underlying Gujarati and Marwari culture / language etc. I believe the divergence started partly due to Rajasthan remaining under native rule while Gujarat came under Islamic rule as early as the 13th century. Plus Gujarat being coastal was perhaps always more liberal and cosmopolitan.
BTW what are your halpogroups?
Y dna: R2A – R L266
Mt DNa: M2

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

Y is H
Mt is K1a

I am the opposite of most. West Eurasian maternal, likely steppe from what I gather (doesn’t seem common for IVC). East Eurasian Paternal.
Population

S-Indian 47.67 Pct
Baloch 37.96 Pct
Caucasian 3.77 Pct
NE-Euro 5.02 Pct
SE-Asian 0.33 Pct
Siberian 0.58 Pct
NE-Asian –
Papuan 0.32 Pct
American 0.55 Pct
Beringian 1.04 Pct
Mediterranean 1.63 Pct
SW-Asian 1.01 Pc

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

yeah paternal side has family kuldevi

RS
RS
3 years ago

@Justanotherlurker, no I am not. Just know a little about these things from one of my friend who belong to that region. Yaar Solanki, Chauhan, etc are used by lot many groups. Many Jats also use Solanki though in reality they have a sorout clan which claims Solanki, something like that, it is also used by many more different groups. I guess the real “sept” would be differ in all the cases.

RS
RS
3 years ago

I am not Rajasthani, though what I know from friend is Jains had a respectable position in courts. For example Oswal Jains were ministers.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  td

Somewhere I read she was Jat not Jain. So, it is not clear. But she wasn’t treated well and was separated.

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  RS

Yes, this link from a Rajput/Indian royals website says she was Jat.

https://www.royalark.net/India/jodh10.htm

“1754, Paswanji Gulab Raiji Saiba (k. in her palanquin by two Jodhpur sardars, while on her way to Mehrangarh, 16th April 1792), a lady of the Jat caste who exercised considerable power”

This book by Sabita Singh: “The politics of marriage in India: Gender and Alliance in Rajasthan..” also says she was Jat…

Looks like she was Jat afterall. A Marwari Jain concubine in the Jodhpur court just didn’ seem right based on everything I know of the area and the community:)

RS: Are you Rajasthani or Rajput? If so (or even otherwise) any idea why there is such a preponderance of Rajput sounding gotras among Jains in Southern/Western Marwar? I have tonnes of Parmar and Chauhan relatives, some Rathods too, and many Solankis (including me)..My family has records going back several hundred years, and every one of them calls out the caste as Porwal and gotra as Solanki (no mention of the religion – Jainism in any of the records), so this is not a recent change by any means

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Akhilesh

I guess Chauhan is used by many groups in Rajasthan who call themselves with the same community name but are in obc.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

@warlock

“Bengali and S Indian ones, especially Brahmins, still lean hard left due to their unfortunate misunderstanding of leftist economics that has become cultural at this point.”

Do u mean “less hindu” people 😛

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

they are more Hindu with respect to temple attendance and knowledge of hindu customs.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

I doubt if either of them is true. But still the myth persists.

principia
principia
3 years ago

The Indian Express has a long feature on Indian-Americans and race in America. Basically, it tells a story most of us would have guessed/known already: a largely insulated community which was indifferent (not hostile) to blacks, with some casual racism mixed in for the 1st gen NRIs.

What stuck out to me, however, was the dominance of women in pushing activism. Perhaps this is a reflection of the fact that the journalist is a woman, but it really does seem that young women (15-30) in the community are pushing for change the most. If that is the case, I wonder why that’d be. Do women have a higher capacity for empathy than men and if so, is that biological?

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  principia

Do women have a higher capacity for empathy than men and if so, is that biological?

I think that on average they do have more empathy.

I have been deliberately trying to cultivate more empathy and compassion over the past few years for spiritual reasons and I think I have been moderately successful.

So I don’t think it is completely set in stone, although I am sure there is a biological element.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  principia

From the article

“Shikha knows her parents might not be on board with defunding the police or reparations.”

Yeah we are going the right way

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Shika needs to learn she has to go make her own money and can donate as much of it as she wants.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

How do these people see Macron ?

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  RS

fascism-adjacent

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

https://apnews.com/article/georgia-archive-immigration-f3b1007a9d2ef3cb6d2bd410673eae83

Fuck you Mahendra Amin.What an absolute embarrassment to the Gujarati American community.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

RE: Deadly dust – a banned film about depleted uranium

A film about the consequences of the use of depleted uranium in NATO campaigns around the world. This film, once shown in the German-speaking area, has been banned, and its author still suffers the consequences due to his courage to deal with this topic.

The German-produced documentary “Deadly Dust”, signed by Frieder Wagner, talks about war crimes in the former Yugoslavia, especially in Bosnia, Serbia, but also in Iraq. The use of depleted uranium created a genocide against these countries, which is not remembered in the history of mankind, even the Nazi crimes remained small compared to this genocide, which still lasts and will unfortunately last almost forever.

In the contaminated areas, people are still in danger, without many even knowing it, which is the most terrible because this is an invisible genocide about which the public must be informed.

INDTHINGS
INDTHINGS
3 years ago

Sikhs will remain aligned with Pakistanis against Hinduvadis because Hinduvadis refuse to acknowledge why Sikhs don’t like them, and instead invent make believe reasons (Khalistan theocracy, Jat racism, liberalism).

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  INDTHINGS

How in the world are Sikhs aligned with Pakistanis?

Justanotherlurker
Justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

In Paknationalist / Islamist wetdreamworld.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago

Khalistani and Khalistani sympathisers tend to seek out Pak Punjabis with a begging bowl to fund propaganda campaigns. You have to stay friends with sugar daddy, even if he raped your mommy awhile back. Because hey guess what, your great uncle might have raped his sister. But all is forgiven as a display of maturity to get back at evil people of the 80s. Oh wait! Let’s hate on the arch rivals of those evil people too.

IsThisReal
IsThisReal
3 years ago
Reply to  INDTHINGS

I think someone once mentioned that you’re an atheist or something

As an experiment, have you ever considered going to Pak and publicly declaring that you’ve left islam and don’t believe in god? ?

“Sikhs will remain aligned with Pakistanis against Hinduvadis”

Not sure if troll or not, but you probably meant Khalistanis

There are only 6k Sikhs in pak today, as per pak’s national database, not sure what kind of “alignment” you’re expecting

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
3 years ago

Most Sikhs align with Pakistani Punjabis naturally, you can just see it in the Canadian diaspora. They don’t even have to be Khalistani for that. Obviously this rubs some right wing Hindus the wrong way and que the rants against the Sikhs or Jatt racism and what not. I also don’t understand several comments as to Punjabis being so racist.. While I cannot speak as to the motivations of Indian Punjabi Sikhs, Pakistani Punjabis are the least racist/endogamous of all ethnic groups in Pakistan. Infact Pak Punjabis highly prefer to marry Pak-Muhajirs from the Gangetic plains and such marriages are common (including in my family), so race/biradari plays a much smaller role here.

Perhaps if Hindus of other ethnicities don’t put Punjabis (especially Sikh) on such a pedestal as to calling them the sword arm of Hinduism or coveting their physical features, the Sikhs would be more receptive towards them.

IsThisReal
IsThisReal
3 years ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

“Pakistani Punjabis are the least racist/endogamous of all ethnic groups in Pakistan. Infact Pak Punjabis highly prefer to marry Pak-Muhajirs from the Gangetic plains and such marriages are common”

Any source for this? Or is this just purely anecdotal? I’ve read about pak’s consanguinity rate being pretty high

It’s the first time I’m reading this statement

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
3 years ago
Reply to  IsThisReal

High consanguinity results because of a combination of arranged marriage culture and Islam’s acceptance of cousin marriages, the first natural choice for many mothers looking for daughter in law is within her own extended family. This is common in some communities in Punjab and Sindh, less so amongst Pasthuns.

There were some studies done which showed the highest consanguinity is found amongst landowners, which makes sense that they would want to keep the assets within the family.

So consanguinity is a separate issue & its relation to race/class is weak at best.

What I am talking about is personal anecdote found in Pakistan, which I am pretty confident on. Punjabis marrying Muhajirs and city dwelling Pasthuns are quite common nowadays, possibly because both these groups are coveted by them. In my experience Pak Punjabis are also least likely to show supremacy of their own culture or take pride in their race/caste/ethnicity/language when compared to other groups.

IsThisReal
IsThisReal
3 years ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

“In my experience Pak Punjabis are also least likely to show supremacy of their own culture or take pride in their race/caste/ethnicity/language when compared to other groups.”

Literally saw a comment on FB a few minutes ago where a pakistani claimed the ancestors of pakistanis are mughals

This isn’t something new, go to quora, reddit, fb or anywhere else, you’ll see more of the same supremacy stuff, I don’t think I need to tell you all this, you know it as well as I do

“Pak Punjabis are also least likely to show supremacy of their own culture or take pride in their race/caste/ethnicity/language”

Most of the supremacy is veiled in religion

And I mainly asked because you brought up muhajirs
Because 99% of time whenever I see pakistanis mention muhajirs, it’s because pakistanis blame them for making their country look darker/uglier

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
3 years ago
Reply to  IsThisReal

Firstly, nobody seriously considers the Mughals as their ancestors.. If you are going to go by online posts made by teenage trolls, then you will only be misguided. People revere the Mughals because they were Muslim, the same reason they also now revere the Ottomans after Ertugrul (smh), or the Rashidun Caliphate because of Islam. The real descendants of Mughals are the ones whose last name is Mirza xx Baig or Mughal, and they are quite proud of it.

Secondly, once again you must have only read that on the internet about Muhajirs. In reality, many of the Muhajirs are fairer than your average middle class or rural Punjabi, probably because most of the Muhajirs belonged to affluent/high caste ancestry back in India.

A lot of the misconception comes because of MQM’s infamy in Pakistan, it’s founder Altaf Hussain was pretty dark and a clown figure, and by the time social media rolled in, most of MQM’s upper class support base had defected to PTI leaving some of the lower class Muhajirs as representative of the community. A lot of Punjabis who have never actually met any Muhajirs because they live in cities in Punjab started to associate them with all Muhajirs.

It’s not the “dark” comments that is a common insult to Muhajirs because there is very little substance or truth to it except when a Pasthun is making it.. I remember that back I participated in facebook groups, very few Punjabis could make that comment because everyone had their photos up. However if any ethnicity wants to insult Muhajirs, they call them ”Indians” or Hindustani, this is taken as an allegation of treason.

And if you so enquire, the reason why a lot of Muhajirs intermarry with Punjabis (especially in Karachi) is because of Urdu high culture that Punjabis have adopted from Muhajirs. Punjabis want to speak Urdu which is the national language so Urdu speaking community which is also mostly educated and speak in a proper Urdu accent is considered elite. Marriage is the ultimate litmus test, and almost half the marriages in my extended family are between Muhajirs and Punjabis.. a couple of my cousins have married Pasthun and Kashmiri as well, and I can speak personally here that I got a very high percentage of interest from Punjabi and Pasthun families for ”rishta” when I was a bachelor. So to me, I don’t see the charges of endogamy being levelled against Pak Punjabis.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  IsThisReal

“Firstly, nobody seriously considers the Mughals as their ancestors”

There is literally a caste named Mughal in Pakistan

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
3 years ago
Reply to  IsThisReal

Read my full comment, I acknowledge the last name Mughal along with Beg. Secondly, how do you define a caste? They intermarry.. My best friend is someone whose last name is Mughal. Muhajir background, lot of wealth. They are not endogamous.

Commentator/Seinundzeit
Commentator/Seinundzeit
3 years ago
Reply to  IsThisReal

@S Qureishi, Ali Choudhury

Psychologically speaking, I’ve always found that stereotypes are rather revealing.

In the Pakistani context, Pashtuns often are pegged as being all-brawn-no-brain, and as having a unique societal-wide liberality with respect to homosexuality.

And I think that this says much more about Punjabis and Muhajirs in relation to Pashtuns, rather than saying anything substantive about Pashtuns themselves.

When disentangling the stereotypes, the dumb/simple notion seems rather restricted to Muhajirs; Punjabis don’t trade in it. Which makes sense: like Pashtuns, many Punjabis are rural people (and are themselves often on the receiving end of jokes concerning rusticity). One imagines that Muhajirs being a completely urban population (and by far the most educated population in Pakistan) puts them in a unique position to say such things about Pashtuns and Punjabis.

Speaking particularly of Pashtuns, it doesn’t help that our Urdu can be quite bad. But that isn’t a very fair reason for doubting our intellects (lol).

^ It would be rather similar to the French assuming that the Irish are a race of idiots, simply because their attempts at the French language sound jarring.

I mean, Pashto is an Iranic language. On average, Urdu will never be our strong suit. By way of natural contrast, in Afghanistan our Dari is vastly better. (Everywhere you go in Afghanistan, a majority of Pashtuns can speak clear Dari)

The homosexuality stereotype is even more interesting, considering the actual realities involved. I mean, pederastry is well documented in the Greater Punjab; they call it lohnda bazi. It’s actually pretty common in rural areas.

If truth be told, pederastry is a well-known problem all across Central Asia, the West Asian highlands, and in the parts of South Asia with ancient ties to Central and West Asia (again, essentially the Greater Punjab). It also exists as a widescale problem in some populations of the Caucasus, and was once quite common in parts of the Balkans.

And looking at ancient history, there are theories that the peoples of the Eurasian steppes might have also engaged in such practices (there’s a paper on this somewhere, will have to find), and I’m sure that we’re all well aware of the ancient Greeks. Speaking of the latter, their writings on this matter can offer considerable embarrassment to anyone who looks to them as a model for emulation.

But anyway, coming back to the present day, I’ve always found it odd that people assume that this is a uniquely Pashtun problem, even though it occurs in the Punjab too (and is a socially valorized practice only among Tajiks and Uzbeks, if we’re focusing on the neighborhood).

Which brings me back to the broader psychological point.

It’s important to note that Pashtuns are also stereotyped as being a very dangerous and violent ethnicity. There’s this whole notion that “Pathans are crazy”. With this also comes a sense that Pashtuns are very masculine and rugged. The whole “they’re natural warriors”-type talk.

In addition to that, Pashtuns (along with the people of Gilgit and Chitral) are also stereotyped as being “white”. Fair skin and chiseled facial features are the common stereotype. And as is the case with India, these characteristics are often associated with attractiveness in Pakistan.

So, I’ve always felt that the “dumb and boy rapist” stereotype was a way for other Pakistanis to bring balance to their stereotypes. You know, a way to bring us down a notch.

I guess one way to put it would be:

“I mean yeah, sure, they’re tough and manly, and they epitomize our standards of attractiveness….

BUT, but, they’re also dumb, and they prefer adolescent boys. So, there you go”.

PS: I don’t take any stereotypes seriously, wiyh regards to anyone.

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  IsThisReal

@ Commentator

“It’s important to note that Pashtuns are also stereotyped as being a very dangerous and violent ethnicity. There’s this whole notion that “Pathans are crazy”.”

Well yes, we have seen them drive.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
3 years ago
Reply to  IsThisReal

@Commentator/Seinundzeit

I think Pasthuns are unfairly targeted for pederasty, and yes it does seem to exist in Punjab (and even North India) but in my limited experience, the more west one goes towards Central Asia, the more common it seems to be. I don’t know the history behind it but this seems to be a very accepted practice in Afghanistan based on some documentaries I have seen.

Pasthuns are also considered ”all brawn and little brain” by city people, such as Muhajirs and urban Punjabis, but this is quite normal because city dwellers worldwide have this notion of rural inhabitants as unintelligent, it’s not limited to Pakistan, you can see that in Europe or North America or India. Infact us giving credit to Pasthuns for the brawn part is a big deal because Pasthuns are seen as the hardest working ethnicity by everyone, most so by Muhajirs which is why so many Pashtuns flock to Karachi to find employment. You should see what (unfair) stereotypes are for Sindhis for example, lol..

The other stereotypes that you are talking about such as being rugged, masculine and ‘warrior type’ are spread by Pasthuns themselves (and they also have a grain of truth to them). It is without doubt that Pasthuns are fiercly independent, and quite tribal in their approach and they are proud of it. They also do look down on other ethnicities of the subcontinent for being ‘docile’. In Karachi for example, before the 1980’s, both Pasthuns and Punjabis who were recent arrivals in the city, considered urbane Muhajirs as docile Hindustani ethnicities who could be easily suppressed via force, and tried to assert dominance in the city. However Muhajirs ended up forming MQM which became organized like an army and became extremely violent, and the Pasthuns were made to respect them.. Although the image of Muhajirs for being educated and cultured/ ”muhazzib”, took a big hit because of the violence, from which we never recovered.

And yes, Pasthuns are definitely considered attractive, but then so are Kashmiris.. These stereotypes did not develop to bring them down a notch, these are simply a result of mixing mountain culture with city culture as I explained above.

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Really? In my own Pak Punjab Arain extended family and friends, I have frequently heard people say they don’t trust the Urdu-speaking i.e. Muhajirs. Conspiracy theories about Jews are rampant in Pak society and the most common insult is to tell someone they are ugly and kala. And if you are white\European, the bowing and scraping you can enjoy are off the charts.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
3 years ago
Reply to  Ali Choudhury

Pretty much every community/group has negative stereotypes for others.. I have heard

– Punjabis are considered ‘paindu’, rural, hearty but unsophisticated and not in a good way

– Sindhis are considered corrupt and lazy

– Pashtuns are considered hardworking but very simple and dumb

Muhajirs even have stereotypes amongst them selves

– Biharis are considered impoverished, but very cunning and not to be trusted

– Memons are considered extremely miserly

etc etc

These stereotypes occur due to limited exposure to other groups, may have some grain of truth to it but usually never true as a group. I am sure Punjabis have their own stereotype of Muhajirs, Sindhis and Pathuns too. This is normal.

Yes ugly is an insult, so is kala an insult.. and nobody is denying that whiter skin is considered more attractive in Pakistan too.

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  Ali Choudhury

Well, the most common stereotype for Pashtuns is that they like buggering young boys.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Ali Choudhury

@Ali

Pedastry part kind is a true stereotype. That “Shame of Pakistan” documentary was tough to watch. I am happy Imran Khan acknowledged it though

It’s always interesting to speak Gujarati with Memon people. I have had Memon patients in the past, who I spoke with. Their Gujarati is quite close to Kathiawari Gujarati.

RS
RS
3 years ago
Reply to  Ali Choudhury

What about Muslims from Indian side United Punjab ( Inc Haryana) who migrated post partition 1947 to your side? They didn’t settled in Karachi as far as I know. Most settled in Okara, Lahore, South Punjab as well. Groups like Qaimkhanis, Mola Jat, Ranghars etc were part of it.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago