Open Thread – 10/24/2020 – Brown Pundits

By Razib Khan 503 Comments

Going to post some notes on the latest podcast here. I talked to Fred Martin, who is of Haitian origin, but pretty stridently French, and a liberal. We discussed the killing of Samuel Paty, and Islam and Islamism in France. We also mooted the differences in relation to race between the USA and France, and our contrasting experiences. Finally, we talk about the coming winter of coronavirus in Europe.

A lot of the discussion centered around the contrast between France and the USA, which is always interesting to explore.

Thanks to everyone who is a Patron. I’ve started posting podcasts which you can’t find elsewhere yet there…

On Twitter, Suhag Shukla has been pushing back on the “caste is a huge problem for Indian Americans” narrative. I think she’s right on the specific issue. But, I am skeptical when she seems to attribute caste to colonialism, or, that it is not tightly integrated into Hinduism. I think Hinduism has a caste problem like Islam has a religious oppression problem. Religions are made by humans, and how they play out is a human matter. For whatever reason, Islamic societies have not been pluralistic in an egalitarian manner to other religions, while Hinduism in India is hard to disentangle from caste and jati. This doesn’t mean they’re necessary connections. Caste and jati are not major issues in Balinese or Cham Hinduism, though varna does exist.

The major dynamic which needs to be reiterated is that American Hinduism is very distinct from Hinduism in India, just as American Islam is very distinct from Islam in the Near East. I’m 99% sure that the Indian Americans I know (Generation X) would exhibit no caste bias of any note because in the USA it’s just not relevant in any way.

Brown Pundits Subreddit.

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503 Replies to “Open Thread – 10/24/2020 – Brown Pundits”

  1. Caste is over-hyped, most likely by the colonial forces who saw it as a useful tool to divide and conquer as well as rationalise their own domination.

    The people hyping up caste are mostly Western NGOs, Christian/Islamic missionaries (who want to proselytise) and liberal Hindus, a lot of whom happen to be {{{Brahmin}}} for some reason, thereby playing the role of the Bolshevik in India.

    Having grown up in a Hindu household, with my earlier years being spent in India proper, I can say I have never come across the concept of caste being discussed in my family, the first time I heard of it was in the West, so it seems to be more of a Western obsession more than anything else. Distinctions amongst the Indian diaspora are always linguistic.

    India should really ban these subversive NGOs who promote this nonsense in order to foment a BLM 2020 style colour revolution.

    1. One day, when he was
      about ten or twelve ,
      he asked his mother
      “What is my caste?
      Some boys in the
      school were asking
      I didn’t know what
      to say.” The mother,
      got up in the middle
      of her supper. “ Beta
      if you don’t know it
      by now, it must be upper.”
      — Akhil Katyal

  2. There’s the “Protestantization” of religions in the US (religions all become very confessionalized and seen through an individualistic lens about personal revelation) Razib talked about before for Catholics and Jews, so no suprise that it’s the case for Muslims and Hindus too. Well, if Hare Krishnas aren’t already fitting this model as “Protestantized”.

    Communal identities based on ethnoreligious groups just based on “keeping it in the family by default because that’s what my parents were and their parents before them” without backing by strong personal conviction, and without a strong reason to stick to one’s ethnoreligious group (e.g. persecution), don’t seem to survive contact/assimilation with the WEIRD (the acronym) American (and perhaps other western societies, at least Anglophone ones) religious style well.

  3. Razib and other Genomics nerds questions –
    I was asked by a friend about whether Jatts/ Gujjars/ Rors (most Jatts) are remnants of Shakas, Kushanas/ Hunas mixing with local creed. He seemed pretty convinced of his argument – I have no insight into the genomics but remember following that lack of East-Asian which is expected in all these Steppe Horsemen

    Any updates on that or anything else?

    1. I just find it funny that they tend to have this strong desire to identify with their outside minority ancestry than their majority Indus (AASI+iranic) one. Why is it never framed as “input” but rather as “remnants?” This desire to upplay foreign ancestry is a moniker of Indianness. We truly are a wounded civilization.

      1. To be fair – this guy was a Rajput and appeared a bit stereotypical about assertions of Jatts – It was more Jatts arent like other North Indians. Have to be later Iranic derived people not the Original IA ppl
        HIS QUOTE not my – I disagreed but I don’t know genetics – so sent a few blogposts –
        Anyways what’s the current consensus?

        1. consensus is that they have about 10-20% more steppe than upper caste N Indians and likely have some outside input, though it has minor shift in ancestry impact like an average African American (about 85% SSA) compared to a Subsaharan West African (100% SSA). Yes there are differences but the overlap is massive. It would be like subsaharan africans constantly bringing up their white ancestry. Not exactly since the subjugation history makes the context diff. But you get my point.

          There is a massive raciology component to try to come off as West Asian as possible. I don’t blame them. Many layers

          1. Indo Aryan migration is more West Eurasian people coming in
          2. People from West Asia ruling India. Yes Mughals big East Eurasian Eurasian component but lot of the high culture is imported from Persia
          3. British Rule
          4. American rise and Anglo germanic origin peoples being largely global power brokers
          5. Bollywood cementing these looks as the standard, standing on all of these layers

          And while I get this yearning on one level, insofar as people tend to identify with “winners,” I see it as a bit sad.

          1. You are thinking too much about one thing and not enough about others. Jats, well at least the more eastern Indian side Jats have only been intergated into the mainstream society in the last 1000 or so years. Muslim Jutts may have integrated into Islamic society before the others.

          2. Less about steppe (most people aren’t even aware of modern genetic results) and more about not seeing the group as a part of the larger society because of relatively shallow/recent links to the said society.
            In comparison, the different ancestors of different Jat groups may feel no connection to mainstream society whatsoever 2000 years ago.

          3. @DaThang

            Agreed. Unlike individuals on brownpundits or genetic/anthropology sites, the average South Asian (diaspora or not) has never heard of terms like AASI, Steppe, Iran N, etc.

            Anyways, as a “diaspora South Asian”, I relate to the idea of not seeing myself as part of the larger “Indian group.” After my American/Canadian identities, I only feel attached to my ethno-cultural group (Punjabi).

            Sometimes I wonder what India would have looked like had it split more on distinct ethno-cultural lines. In many ways, India mirrors the diversity of language and cultures in Europe (if not more). Despite this, it is a single country with a population over 1 billion and a genetic cline that is wider (partly related to how diverged AASI is from other ancestral pops) than all of Europe combined.

          4. @paindu
            Out of curiosity, were you exposed heavily to Khalistan separatist movement?

            Canadian Jatt Sikhs tend to espouse hardcore ethnonationalist borderline supremacist views by several orders of magnitudes compared to their Indian counterparts

          5. Maybe. But a lot of the underpinning on said differences delves right back into the same racial worm hole and emphasizing minority ancestral components. Culturally, Jats seem pretty darn Indian. Heck they basically function like a caste.

            And prior to 2000 years ago even caste was more fluid. Your points are non exclusive to Jats. I think the “We wuz WAY diff and we special and Western and shiet” vibe has very strong racialist underpinnings.

          6. Are you implying that castes are the only important thing about Indian society? Even if castes weren’t solid back then, the ancestors of say, the general castes descend from the people in the mainstream Indian society for 2,000+ years, and so that is important. The cultural argument is that Jats have not and have come from an unknown fringe.

            But if you want to discard this, you are only lending credence to the idea that people align along genetic lines even without knowing a word about genetics. Wouldn’t that contradict Jats being recently Indianized (as they are and as you note they currently are) and hence work against your own points? There is a contradiction here. To resolve this, on one hand, there is the argument for late cultural integration to explain this, and on the other hand, there is the argument that the cultural integration doesn’t matter.

          7. @thewarlock

            I was certainly exposed to it but not directly via my parents or family. Not that a kid growing up would actually grasp the concept of 1984 or Indira Gandhi/Operation Bluestar/KPS Gill.

            Rather, my first true exposure was seeing Khalistan banners and pictures of Bhindrawale at numerous Gurdwaras throughout the US (California) and Canada (obviously UK has them too).

            As I got older, I did my own research (on partition and 1984) after I picked up an interest in South Asian history and anthropology towards the end of high school.

            Disclaimer: I’m not a religious person. My interest in South Asian history (including Khalistan) was from an ethno-cultural/historical perspective. This stuff is a touchy topic but I don’t mind sharing my thoughts/offering my perspective.

          8. @Dathang
            I am implying Jats assumed the role of the shudra farmer, despite some unknown genetic input. They essentially functioned and still function like a caste, in terms of endogamy. And the majority of Jat ancestral components are identical to that of those other Indians whose ancestors were present 2000 years ago. The genetic difference is present but overblown. The cultural differences are a modern attempt to justify a lot of the phenotypic elitism, given a greater minority proportion do pass as more West than those of all other communities, by drawing up a more politically correct line of argumentation of different cultures. Jats don’t fit neatly within the typical genetics of the caste framework; however, they fit neatly enough in the cultural framework. And they aren’t genetically THAT different from other S Asians regardless. Yes on average they are different but the overlap in phenotype is quite large. And genotype wise it is what an additional of 20% ish steppe? I mean that is like SSA vs average American Black

            Regardless, their integration into the modern nation states of India and Pak is quite extensive and was even in the 1980s. Enough serve proudly in the respective militaries. Hopefully, these ethnic regiments are dissolved soon in India though. The Sikh Jats of Canada and central Valley in cali have gripes over the unfortunate events of 1984. They also tend to descend from the more hardcore Khalistan fold, who tended to come from more racialist and separatist pockets of society; aka they tend to look for any excuse they can get to come off as different aka “better.”

            Their endogamous behavior and elitism is nothing special in a S Asian context. What is, is the bit of extra steppe, and the more West Eurasian phenotypic minority outliers it gives the community in greater proportions compared to other one. Hence, the elitism has a special racialized flavor. Cherry picking is easier for them. Also chest thumping after the British used them so much, especially post 1857, and the S Asian militaries continuing the tradition.

            They like to argue their special “blood” makes them braver. I have seen that nonsense too.

          9. You still fail to understand what I am trying to tell you thewarlocke. There was no other input. The ethnogenesis was different entirely from the mainstream. As in it took place in a different combination which is exactly why the Jat yDNA is different from the general caste yDNA of north India. There is no record of Jats being a part of the mainstream south Asian society more than roughly 1,000 years go, you also need to understand this. So your view of Jats being a part of the society as farmers from the get go is inconsistent with the records. If anything, the records indicate a closer link to pastoralism until Jats settled down within the last thousand years. Yes, by then, the Jats of the different regions had begun to take up agricultural roles and had began to integrate into society. That is what I am saying, this integration is only a thousand or so year old, prior to which Jats were seen as ‘outside’ of the main society.

            >Jats don’t fit neatly within the typical genetics of the caste framework; however, they fit neatly enough in the cultural framework.

            Only in the last thousand years, prior to which there were only tenuous connections to mainstream society. In this aspect, Jats differ from general caste Indians because the general caste Indians’ ancestors were a part of the mainstream society for much longer than Jats have been.

          10. @thewarlock
            Have you ever spoken to a diaspora Punjabi Sikh (Jatt or not) about their perspective? I can assure you most of us aren’t ardent Khalistanis. Now, are we fond of India? That’s a separate question. The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

            Not sure how others perceive it but I do feel like it’s worth mentioning that many diaspora Jatt Sikhs/Punjabi Sikhs treat Indian as a nationality rather than an ethnicity This is in contrast to many other diaspora South Asians who more or less let Indian behave as their ethnicity (though there are some exceptions). It’s an interesting dynamic.

          11. @thewarlocke

            It is, which is why there is likely a change over time. The ancestors of Jats 1000+ years ago would likely not even cooperate socially with general castes or general society at all, if not be outright hostile 24/7. Hostilities likely have gone down in the 1,000 years and if 1,000 had been 2,000 instead, it would be even smoother. Likewise, if it was 500 instead of 1,000 hostilities would be more common. I don’t expect it to be linear but I do anticipate a positive correlation with respect to time. Although there are plenty of other factors (not ideal scenario factors) which may resulting in a varying correlation values over time as well, speeding up for a given century and slowing down for another.

          12. @Paindu
            Gujaratis ethnically identify as Gujarati where I grew up and mostly hangout and know other Gujaratis. The generation below is different and has more of a pan Indian identity. I notice this among white collar kids of Jatt Sikhs who grew up in wealthy nyc suburbs. The Jatt Sikhs from isolated pockets of the Central Valley and Brampton have a different cultural outlook colored heavily by 1984 and the Khalistan movement, whether they directly believe in it or not.

            Regardless, even Jatt Sikhs are more integrated now than ever within India itself. The appetite for Khalistan is near nil, regardless of what the Khalistan conspiracy theorists like to say.
            And trust me, again most
            diaspora Indians don’t have a super high opinion of India. But they also realize breaking India will just cause Pakistan and China to come in and eat away at regions. And many places would be landlocked and/or have other geopolitical concerns. The current political union with enough federalism in the right ways is the best bet. It might have been for Europe too. The EU is having issues because of a disjointed monetary and fiscal policy. That wouldn’t have been an issue with a more complete union.

            Again, Jatt Sikh behavior in the immigrant generation is similar to that of other Indians, except for the 1980s group that has some extra distrust 2/2 to Khalistan issues. The 2nd gen is where differences begin. That too it depends on where they grew up heavily.

            And Jatt Sikhs are only 1/3 of the Jatt equation. The best integrated are Muslim Juts who I notice see other Pakistanis, outside of chamars of course (Pak is still rife with casteism), as their bretheren, often mentioning Gujjars, Arains, Potaharis, etc.
            Haryana Jats are somewhere in between. But Hinduism and proximity to the center has made for a more integrative spirit and desire to see the country move forward.

            A special note. The minority of the 2nd gen Jatt Sikh types who have a special type of affinity towards Pakistanis and the Pan Punjabi enthonationalism and shitting on other Indian groups is a more N American, precisely American, phenomenoma where social rep of Indians is nerdy. This is out of social convenience. They want to build a separate cool rep to escape the social demerits of being associated with “nerds.”

            Pakthings and Araingang like to bring up those types because it supports their ethnonationalist narrative. They likely are more exposed to those types just with how people tend to gravitate towards those whom they share closer views with. I am a devil’s advocate type person and don’t mind heated discussion, so I tend to look for these types. Hence, I get into my fair of arguments. Granted, the aforementioned two are also islamoapologists and have a deep bias against Hindus, so they go on their false “we wuz buddhist” trope. but that’s a separate discussion.

          13. @Dathang

            Your ethnogenesis points makes sense. Thanks for them. Event though components are not that far off, the historiography is different. I get it now. And yes things will trend towards more harmony over time. Their behavior makes more sense.

          14. I don’t think that even the component ratios can be a permanent hurdle in cultural integration. If you want to look at it as south Asian and non-south Asian, then Jaats would be 1.5, Gujarati Brahmins would be 3.63, and regular Gujaratis would be around 7.62. If these were so important, then Gujarati Brahmins would identify as being closer to Jaats than to regular Gujaratis or as intermediate if you kept on using ratios, but that isn’t the case. This gives us an optimistic outlook for the expected trajectory of Jat integration with local identities like Haryana Jaats in Haryana and Punjab Jatts in Punjab. As you have mentioned, Muslim Jutts are already the most well integrated of the three.

          15. @thewarlock

            Yes, many Gujaratis and Tamils identify with their ethnicities first but the point was trying to make was that you’re more likely to see a multi gen diaspora Sikh (Jatt or otherwise) say they’re Punjabi, not Indian in comparison to the other groups.

            Also, I’m not sure how familiar you are with Jatt Sikh demographics but the bulk of us are in Brampton/GTA, Surrey/Vancouver and Yuba City/Sacramento/Central Valley + San Jose/Bay Area. I have family in all 3 places. So, I imagine they heavily outnumber NY/NJ ones.

            I would agree that most Indian Jatt Sikhs are integrated well into India. That doesn’t mean people have completely forgot about ’84 and moved on. As an example, Bhindrawale bumper stickers are not necessarily a rare find in rural Punjab.

            I think you need to make a distinction when you compare the perspective on India of mutli-gen diaspora Sikhs vs. other groups. Their unfavorable opinions of India are driven by different reasons. Also, I think it’s worth noting that the vast majority of us don’t have some desire for the balkanization of India. That doesn’t mean we wouldn’t support more state level autonomy (Nehru offered this during partition and then backtracked).

            It’s not a simple as 1980s group btw. My paternal family came to Canada in the 70’s and maternal family to California in the 60s. I don’t understand where people get it’s just the 1980’s migrants/asylum seekers who felt distrust toward India.

            In terms of integration, it’s worth pointing out that Jatt Sikhs happen to heavily outnumber other non-dalit Sikhs (Gujjar, Tarkhan, Saini, Rajput, Khatri, Kamboj, etc). However, the majority of us still identify Punjabi Sikh > Jatt.

            Regarding, special affinity toward Pakistanis and Pan Punjabi ethnonationalism? Couldn’t it just be the fact that we share the same culture and language (regardless of which side of the border we’re from)? Though, I won’t disagree about your points on social convenience and social demerits of “nerd” association.

            As for previous religions, I think it’s worth noting that many Jatts and other Punjabis have forms of ancestor worship still practiced to this day. Since most of us fall outside the varna system, I’m not sure what variation of Hinduism or even Buddhism our ancestors might have practiced.
            Note to self: Too many different tangents.

          16. @Dathang

            Gujarat is shockingly united within the Hindu community, despite a massive range with Patels being around Reddys and Gujarati Brahmins being close to upper caste Sindhis, within vanias occupying a S Indian Brahmin level of admix somewhere in between and Rajputs in between vanias and Brahmins. For as racially diverse as it is also, it is culturally a quite homogenous. Speaks once again to the power of culture trumping the admix.

          17. Punjab has a had Sikh only CMs for sometime. But even their majority is slowly eroding as Punjabi is 40% Hindu and climbing. Also, not all of Sikhs are disaffected by BJP. Some do support it, and I think it will grow, given BJP has more support in younger generation. These state level autonomy requests for greater Sikh majority type control is the reason Punjab and Haryana were split to begin with. But soon Punjab will be majority Hindu as well. The Sikh birthrate is low and outmigration is high

            And this “Punjabi first” identification is more common again among those who stay in those ethnic enclaves. I have met Punjabis at medical conferences and debate tournaments, and I like discussing Indian American identity a lot, so I have brought this up with them and their pan Indian type identity is stronger after college and even things like college Bhangra teams having a strong S Indian and Gujarati presence. Once, Punjabis from those areas cosmopolitanize, they tend to become more “Pan Brown” in outlook. I see this among Pakistanis, much to the chagrin of the Birdari ethnonationalist islamoapologist gang.

          18. @thewarlock

            Fair enough. I don’t follow Indian politics in depth. I have a friend who came to Canada in the early 2010’s so most of my updates and discussions are with him.

            I’d be surprised if BJP fully wins over Indian Sikhs but I’ll keep an eye out. Yes, I’m well aware of the Punjabi Suba movement and the split of Indian Punjab from Himachal Pradesh and Haryana. However, I was speaking more in lines of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution before Khalistan gained any real traction in the 80’s.

            As for demographics, it does seem like they’re going that way. Tons of Bihar/UP migration into Punjab and outmigration of many Punjabi youth to the Western diaspora.

            With regards to identification, it is more common in the enclaves but if we’re being realistic here, most Punjabi Sikhs in the US are disproportionately concentrated near these enclaves in the greater Toronto, Vancouver, Sacramento and Bay Area’s. So, a Bhangra team in one of these cities might not be as diverse as elsewhere.

          19. @Dathang
            I think integration within common Indian culture is also growing stronger and stronger within Punjab. My girlfriend is Sikh Punjabi and visited Jahlander and current generation communicates largely in Hindi with one another. The process of integration is occurring more and more. Also, infanticide rates and skewed sex ratios are present in all communities but Jats are known for this to some degree. Regardless, even if ratios are not higher in Jats, they still have more money to do stuff like import brides from elsewhere. This is also happening more. Also, caste marriage is declining, albeit slowly.

            My whole point is that the racial and cultural differences, as major or minor as one could want to argue about, are declining year after year. Integration is the long term trend. And even among S Asian diaspora, outmarriage rates of caste, creed, religion, and race are increasing. This hardcore Jatt identity stuff is fading. The remnants of those who have ethnonationalist often racialist and supremacist views are echoed intensely online. And those are the types I have unfortunately had to deal with constantly.

            My girlfriend also grew up in Central Valley in a place where playing Hindi music instead of Punjabi at a party was considered “gay,” and there was an ethnonationalist pride and things like Khalistan parades with pictures of Gandhi being burned. Her family didn’t identify with it, per her, but it was definitely there.

            I think Jats have monopoly over Punjabi identity for sure in West. If they suddenly had a big surge of chamars in West who would try to use that identity to intermingle, I think they would revert back to more pan Jat over pan Punjabi. It all comes down to community level politics; hence, caste like behavior.

          20. @thewarlock
            I agree that integration with “common” North Indian culture is growing stronger but I would specify it most to urban Punjab. That includes conversing in Hindi. My friend has echoed the same. However, demographically, the majority of the Sikh population (incl. Jatts) is concentrated in rural Punjab. Hindus heavily outnumber Sikhs in the urban centers of Punjab (Jalandhar, Ludhiana, Patiala, Bathinda, etc.)

            In general, I won’t disagree that outmarriage rates for various groups are increasing. That’s the general trend for most “outmarriage” trends in the western diaspora too. Though, I’d argue it’s still not the majority or rapid growth. These things take time (though Westernization might speed it up).

            As for Hindi vs. Punjabi music, you have to understand, there is politics and ethno-cultural identity at play. In many circles, Punjabi can be seen as crude or brutish and looked down at with disdain in comparison to Hindi or Urdu (in Pakistan). So, it’s a “pride thing.” And yes, Sikhs (diaspora or Indian) are not fans of either Gandhi.

            As for the monopoly over Punjabi Sikh identity, that hypothetical is probably not too far off base.

            That’s my 2 cents anyways.

          21. @DaThang

            But still that’s 1,000 years. Does that mean Canadian Jatts will take 1,000 years to integrate into Canadian society?

        2. Original (Indo- and all other)Aryans?

          Do we have consensus that they were ‘Proto-Slavics’, don’t we?

          Any other possible candidates?

          1. Didn’t proto slavics have other major amcestral components than just what the indo aryans were composed of? I’d imagine more WHG

          2. So-calle ‘Proto-Slavic’ have a specific name, language and mythology. Who are WHG? What is thier basic haplogroup(s)? WHich language they spoke? What was their mythology? Any WHG toponym? Any WHG culture artefacts? Where they originated? What’s happened with them? Who are their contemporary desendants?

        3. Check out paper by Anurag Kadian on Rors. Pretty much answers everything.

          There has not been major mixing of external DNA into Rors since a long time.

          There’s his interview in Hindi on a Facebook page as well. Look for Rors Anurag Kadian

      2. “This desire to upplay foreign ancestry is a moniker of Indianness. We truly are a wounded civilization.”

        This wouldn’t be a phenomenon if India wasn’t in such a bad place developmentally speaking, the types of people who are most autistic and insecure about their ancestors and their histories are ones who are in a bad place contemporarily.

        After African Americans, South Asians are the worst for we wuzzery.

      3. @thewarlock

        If you split South Asian ancestry into the elemental ancestral streams of Iran N + AASI + Steppe, there are plenty of South Asians who have more Iran N and Steppe as individual components than AASI. However, if you use proxies such as IVC, BMAC and Central Steppe, then the lowest IVC levels still hit 36-40% or so (if you use SIS BA3 – IVC migrant to Shahr-e Sukhteh). It’s higher if you use the SIS BA2 IVCp samples.

        Also, Iranian Neolithic farmers weren’t Iranic (West Iranic & East Iranic languages are from the Steppe). If anything, it’s plausible they were Dravidian speaking.

        1. The point is majority of Indian ancestry for all groups is non steppe aka IVC but some like to cling to the extra steppe as a means to exotify themselves and this manifests intensely among online racialist types. They also like to exaggerate the shit out of their steppe and push that as their moniker of specialness rather than realizing they are mostly autosomally the same. Yes the genesis was a different pattern but the end result isn’t something THAT different. Hence why there is still mostly just fine phenotypic overlap, just a greater proportion of minority West passing outliers

          1. @thewarlock
            Honestly, it really depends on you define the ancestry. Through, elemental models with Iran N/Iran M fully separated from AASI or through the actual ancient civilization proxies with IVC, BMAC and Central Steppe (from KAZ).

            Anyways, I understand you point. From my perspective, the South Asian genetic cline shows we’re all South Asian but that doesn’t necessarily mean we’re all the same (as in a single cohesive ethno-cultural group). In essence, I see South Asia like Europe with but with larger inter group genetic distances (due to the divergence of AASI).

            Here’s a PCA showing the South Asian cline on a Global 25 PCA:
            https://imgur.com/J5RWKEI

            The giant black cluster in the top right are Europeans.

        2. If you want to be technical

          IVC= AASI+ Iran Mesolithic related HG (common ancestor with Iran mesolithic is furthest tracing). Majority of S Asians are this.

          Reddys and Patels are legit living relics of the more AASI end of the IVC spectrum.

          1. On a different but related topic kodavas in Karnataka have higher IVC % than almost everyone (patels, reddys, jats, baluchis etc) except maybe lohannas. They also follow some unique ancestor worship practices. At least that is their claim.

            Has there been any study looking for IVC religion through the lens of these unique practices?

          2. @iamIVY

            The IVC had a racial cline from Iranic related to AASI with up to 50% AASI, the level Reddys and Patels display. Therefore, groups like Lohanas that are actually quite high in Steppe would cluster further away from IVC citizens. The key is having no steppe to being a living relic of the IVC.

          3. @thewarlock

            Exactly. Thats why I was talking about kodavas from karnataka who have much lower steppe & really high IVC related values. And on top of that they seem to be following peculiar practices all along.

            Maybe I will include the article and South Asian Genome numbers shared by Razib in a separate post.

    2. I have said this in the past. I don’t see any later input. I suspect that the ethnigenesis of Jats and general castes happened separately which would explain different proportions and lineages, especially for Jaats.

  4. Caste is over-hyped, most likely by the colonial forces who saw it as a useful tool to divide and conquer as well as rationalise their own domination.

    there is strong evidence of 1,500 years of endogamy across jatis. this is literally crazy from a genetics perspective. perhaps it is overhyped. but that’s crazy endogamy

    I can say I have never come across the concept of caste being discussed in my family, the first time I heard of it was in the West, so it seems to be more of a Western obsession more than anything else.

    why are there reservations and caste-based parties?

    don’t seem to survive contact/assimilation with the WEIRD (the acronym) American (and perhaps other western societies, at least Anglophone ones) religious style well.

    anglophone, yes. though latin America is going through confessionalization as protestants become more and more numerous

    1. Yeah caste is a bigger deal. And discrimination against more AASI people is a bigger deal than what people think.

      Look at the S Asians of quora and their insane cherry picking. That alone shows you their embarrassment and delusion about their own peoples’ average and frankly vast majority looks.

      Caste matters still to a disturbing degree. But Congress tends to play along with regional hegemonds who are all based on caste.

      The BJP takes them head on and hence has shed many regional allies. It is a truly pan Indian party with OBC and vaishya as its leaders.

      I think it will take a long time. Intercaste marriage rates is the ultimate test.

      1. I think it will take a long time. Intercaste marriage rates is the ultimate test.

        With urbanization and a lot more interaction of sexes, I guess it will keep on reducing (esp in urban centers)

    2. The 4 Varna concept is overhyped.

      There are something like 3000 endogamous groups.

      The sheer number and complexity of these groups is underhyped.

      The actual nature of these groups is obfuscated by attempting to classify them into the Hindu Varna system.

      This is what the British were guilty of doing.

      Non-landowning Brahmin jatis map most cleanly to Varna. Everyone else is muddled to varying degrees.

      1. i have to say this every single time: it’s pretty shocking how closely varna aligns with AASI % in a region. so it might be over-hyped, but it’s not arbitrary. the only ppl in the indian subcontinent who speak dravidian or indo-aryan languages who have ~0% steppe are groups like pulliyar. non-brahmin landowning classes in the south are different. and obviously southern brahmins more different. in UP dalit castes are very distinct from non-dalits, and brahmins and rajputs from everyone else. in some clustering algorithms chamars cluster with south indian dalits! not with other north indians.

        so yeah, “varna is overdone.” but looking at thousands of genetic markers and it’s recapitulated. wut???

        1. “it’s pretty shocking how closely varna aligns with AASI % in a region.” —
          @Razib,
          Can’t say about the rest of india but doesn’t this break down in UP with yadavs/Ahirs of UP being similar to UP rajputs in terms of steppe and many farming and artisan castes being similar or higher steppe than baniyas of UP .
          Brahmins are the only exception here but since West UP has jats too so there’s that.

          “in UP dalit castes are very distinct from non-dalits,” —- May i ask which dalit castes have been the samples taken from ?

    3. “why are there reservations and caste-based parties?”

      The only people who care about caste are the so-called ‘lower castes’, as not caring about caste would mean losing reservation goodies.

      It is actually similar to America, it is mostly black people who care about race, people speak of “whiteness” being a social construct of oppression but I would say it is rather “blackness” which has become a social construct of perpetual victimhood.

      As for your comments about endogamy, this does not actually imply some hierarchical system of oppression as different jatis of the same varna would also not mix, and there is some evidence of upward mobility of jatis.

      The worst problem in India is colourism, which I will admit is particularly bad in India due to Bollywood.

    4. If you are so ready to believe that caste doesn’t matter much for 99% of ‘American’ hindus, why are you so reluctant to believe a similar progression for urban Indians, or educated Indians? With a massive 1.3 bn population, obviously even a minority of folks who still put stock in it, are going to ‘show up’ in numbers.

    1. thewarlock says: “a pak racialist historical revisionist quoran. Read some of her posts for a good laugh.”

      Pakistan is a hugely diverse nation from a genetic and especially a phenotypical standpoint, and it is often the letter than matters more as Razib said in an earlier post where he competed two Kailash girls, one of whom looked Europeans and the other North Indian.

      As a result, these Quorans can cherry pick photos to claim Pakistan is actually an X nation rather than a Y nation, and historically speaking Pakistan does have a rich history of foreign conquests and visitors from Aryans and Arabs to Arabs and Turks.

      I think the mainstream of Pakistan is now trying to redefine Pakistani identity towards a more Turkic culture than an Arab one, due to current geopolitics and Pakistan aligning with Turkey more than KSA. The RV show “Resurrection: Ertugrul” was also recently dubbed in Urdu and has become a hit in Pakistan.

      1. None of these “invaders” made much of a dent of genetic impact at all. I have seen enough street pics of Pakistanis and met enough diasporans in the nyc metro area and have seen enough do stuff like join Indian dance teams and frats. The Sindhis and Punjabis look like their Indian counterparts. Most are typical NW looking brown folks with a significant number, honestly good majority, being able to pass unnoticed in N India. Mohajirs just mostly look like mid and upper caste gangetic plains people. And honestly like 20-25% of Pakistanis I meet can even pass extremely well as mid caste S Indians like Reddys.

        But these quora clowns make the photoshopped skin bleached norm of fashion magazines as the typical look of the nation. Balochis and Pashtuns are iranic and diff. But it surprises me in pics how many darker Pashtuns I can spot. Some with features that aren’t so far off from people a bit to the East. But again, as a whole, their West shift is easier to see. There seems to be like a 15-20% AASI and perhaps 25-30% iranic component of IVC threshold for it to give the “S Asian look”

        Like I said before. Indians view Pakistanis as brethren lost to a bad ideology. That is much nicer than the Pak view of Indians as some separate species subhuman people. That’s why I find it ironic when Imran Khan Niazi clown calls Modi a Nazi. The “Dravidian Supremacy” comment of Bajwa is even funnier. These people are so deluded. When they foreign fantasies were broken, they jumped ship to Birdari ethnonationalism of “We wuz iranic Indus valley and shiet, we was steppe and shiet, we was buddhist and never believed in caste and shiet, we a separate civilization and shiet” nonsensical dogma. Hence, the rise of the typical Pak Punjabi Punjabi ethnonationalist islamoapologists online

        1. Indian obsession with light skin doesn’t help with this regard, as another commenter on this thread said, there are instances of North Indians dissing South Indians, most likely because of their appearance. North Indians diss South Indians, Pakistanis in turn diss North Indians (and as a bonus, Afghans diss Pakistani “daal khors”)

          I have to admit, the racialist Pakistanis online did get to me once upon a time, but nowadays I don’t care as much as reality speaks for itself. The Pakistanis I have met in real life are fairly friendly to me despite me not being Punjabi.

  5. Trad inclined Hindus to tend to be a bit more defensive/evasive around issues of caste. But this defensiveness misleads them on caste matters IMO – as most of these folks r anyways descended from UCs.
    Hindutva people are a lot more honest about the problems of Caste and don’t go around giving tenuous defenses of caste

    1. Yeah caste exists. It is bad. Hardcore tribalism is just S Asian culture summarized in two words.

      But it is getting better. People are aware. And they are giving less and less of a shit about that type of BS. And those that do are being exposed. And yes it can go faster.

      And no Islam and Sikhism do not actually change ground realities much on caste, no matter what the online Punjabi birdari ethnonationalist gang ironically tries to claim, while simultaneously often praising their own more West Eurasian on average looks (even tho its like 10% vs. 5% thing among them vs. upper caste N Indian hindus on proportion of respective populations passing well as W Asian), while ignoring that their vast majority pass fine among other N Indians but alas their cherry picking

      1. the issue is the indian subcontinent. once brownz leave the subcontinent there’s a lot less of this. the caste stuff seems to fade incredibly fast for xtians and muslims, since officially they are against it. hindus it lasts a little longer i think, since most are upper caste and all that, but it too fades in a generation or two (look at Mauritius and elsewhere).

        also, i have to say, doesn’t seem like caste is a major thing in Bangladesh or sri lanka. caste-like dynamics DO exist in Pakistan tho.

    2. yes. They are confused. Hindutuva people tend to recognize it. Granted some don’t.

      But even big names like Godse did. If you read his testimony in court for the Gandhi murder trial, he goes into how he opposed those Hindutuva leaders who refused to sit and eat with lower castes. He is a cold blooded murderer but he did have a broad mind, when it came to trying to move forward on Hindu intercommunal relations

      1. Godse and other Hindu MS were extremely anti-caste. Godse had worked on inter-caste dining for some years before killing Gandhi.
        Savarkarite/Arya Samaj movements were explicitly anti Caste. Hindutva is best seen as a reformist Hindu defense movement IMO.
        To be honest, RSS wasn’t this anti-caste – lot a Golwalkar’s writings also appear like Varna apologia – where he blamed fall of Buddhism to Islam on lack of Varna.
        But today most Hindutva folks r pretty anti-caste. Even today VHP is more violently anti-caste than RSS.

        Atleast threat of Islam opened few eyes on original sin of Hinduism

        1. Well Golwalker was right to some degree. Hinduism’s insane endogamy culture and hardcore tribalism made it likely more resilient than Buddhism. But he was right likely for the wrong reasons. Overall,caste has done more harm than good.

          India needs to get over it’s feudalism. It went on so freaking long that you have so many genetically distinct micropopulations. This degree of heterogeneity coupled with clear power hierarchies and occupational partitioning has guaranteed made for an unequal and unmeritocratic equilibrium.

          Ambedkar always strikes me as interesting. Even he went on to say goofy stuff like Dalits are long lost Kshytrias. Just why.

          1. Ambedkar always strikes me as interesting. Even he went on to say goofy stuff like Dalits are long lost Kshytrias. Just why.
            He was reading too much into names Divodasa and Sudas i guess. He says Fallen KSH and fallen Buddhists (brahmins ) too.

          2. Ambedkar always strikes me as interesting. Even he went on to say goofy stuff like Dalits are long lost Kshytrias. Just why.

            aasi thing. i read some stuff where amebedkar and a lot of MH and UP dalit groups were not keen on being group into the same class as tamil dalits. basically they saw themselves as superior and more aryan as those were the lowest of the low.

            ppl just to just own up to their aasi and move on. acceptance is number one.

          3. For the Western elite and their local compradors, this long term endogamy and caste based occupational partitioning is very appealing in staving off challenges to Neo liberal order. The flip side of growing India’s soft power (yoga, Bollywood, celebration of democracy) is that western elites see a model to emulate as there is no more frontier to expand and equilibrium is most prized

          4. I don’t get the degree of hate it gets. I see all the layers. But this much? What is so vile and offputting about aasi?

            I am probably about 1/3 aasi and I like myself.I could be 100% magically tomorrow, and I’d still like myself. Like who cares

      2. i’m friendly with moderate hindutva ppl (non-trads). the issue is are you Hindu nationalist or a hindu Nationalist? caste/jati were useful, and in some ways still are. but they clear expend a lot of ‘social energy’ and detract from broader national cohesion and patriotism.

        though on the whole there’s very little caste/region prejudice for indian Americans, there is some, and I’ve seen/heard north indiand dissing south indians to whites. e.g., “we don’t eat weird looking food like south indians” or “we are not dark small people.” perhaps i’m wrong, but I’ve never Chinese do this sort of thing with white people (though since i am familiar with Chinese regional stuff, my Chinese students will joke about their various stereotypes in a playful way; e.g., north Chinese are scared of firey south Chinese)

        1. yes that nonsense goes on. Again I think it comes down manifestation of phenotypic hate.

          If S Indians were straight up lighter on average, you would see the reverse.

        2. though on the whole there’s very little caste/region prejudice for indian Americans, there is some, and I’ve seen/heard north indiand dissing south indians to whites. e.g., “we don’t eat weird looking food like south indians” or “we are not dark small people.” perhaps i’m wrong, but I’ve never Chinese do this sort of thing with white people (though since i am familiar with Chinese regional stuff, my Chinese students will joke about their various stereotypes in a playful way; e.g., north Chinese are scared of firey south Chinese)

          Yeah, I remember u made the exact pt with Kushal on ur podcast on caste – which remains one of the best BP podcasts IMO. Regionalism is definitely stronger in India. And what Warlock says about West Asian passing is firmly part of the caste issues and imagination.

          Sadly in Upper caste the backlash again Reservations (unfair IMO) is making a lot of UCs extremely casteist wrt Reservations. I support Reservations (esp SC ST) but doubt the usefullness of it time to time – especially given the casteist backlash

          1. There is some upper caste backlash for sure but some begrudging acceptance as consensus mostly.

            The issue is OBCs. When Jats of Haryana, Reddys of Andhara, Yadavs of gangetic plain, Patels of Gujarat, and Marathas of Maha all want to play the same game and riot for reservation status, they are essentially trying to violently subvert the reservation norm. They are the plurality and hold the most power in their respective states.

            They also tend to live in villages and run the local judiciary via corrupt Panchayats, are land owning,and have more honor culture, hence more phenomena like infanticide and less check caste based violence.

            Humans are obviously heavily shaped by the conditions they live in and the external incentive structures most immediately around them.

  6. what Suhag is saying seems to be very similar to what Muslim apologists say – Jihad is an internal struggle for personal betterment LOL or Burqa has nothing to do with Islam.

    Maybe that’s whats the aim here – create similar noises as Muslims so Hindus can get the support which Muslims get in the west – esp from the Left

  7. For what its worth I am mistaken for a Muslim > 50% of the time.

    After that NPR piece I had a couple of white people bring up caste in some chat groups i am part of saying how it is a problem etc. But I never really heard anything about it before then from non-browns.

    Indian people also never talked about caste, but I can recall a time when an Indian fob person asked me my last name in sort of a random context. Which in hindsight I guess was an attempt to figure out caste.

    Then there are also various caste based networking associations.

    Most of the popular Hindu sects in the west (BAPS, Arya Samaj, Hare Krishnas etc) are anti caste reformist sects .

    Overall I face an order of magnitude more Islamophobia related racism (also very very low tbh) than anything Hindu related. Caste never really comes up at all.

  8. Some thoughts on skin colour and Latin American racial categories:

    Onge people seem to be darker than more sub Saharan Africans with the exception of South
    Sudanese.

    So I thinking “Mulatto” is more appropriate than “Mezito” to describe brown looking South Asians?

    I get that India AASI and onge are only distantly related. And also both are genetically more related to East Eurasians / native Americans than Africans.

    But just going by looks I think the African admixture Spanish terminology is more apt. Lots of brown people can pass for black (for eg Indian tech tycoon Shiv Nadar).

  9. But just going by looks I think the African admixture Spanish terminology is more apt. Lots of brown people can pass for black (for eg Indian tech tycoon Shiv Nadar).

    in latin america they are quite particular about these things. the focus is as much or more on facial features and hair form. in jamaica people with straight hair and european features but dark skin are called ‘indio’ for obvious reasons. latin americans are quite aware that there are non-black people with darker skin, and so the ‘diagnostic’ element of african ancestry is *hair texture* african hair texture tends to be ‘dominant’ over non-african hair texture, so it’s a good honest signal of that ancestry. skin color is important, but comparatively less important.

    1. yeah the triracial latin American scheme and the fact that “pure types” of each exist are the two nails in the coffin to the argument that the region is racial milieu comparator to S Asia. I think it’s time that people, including myself, stop using it, whether as a novel point or in response to arguments; it just isn’t accurate/

  10. RE (Google translated): Prison for the family, they shaved a Muslim woman because of her connection with a Serb

    The parents, uncle and aunt of a young Bosnian Muslim woman, whose head was shaved because she was seeing a young Serb Christian, were sentenced to one year in prison in FRANCE.

    The girl and her boyfriend’s family members told the court that she was taken to a room where four adults beat her and her uncle shaved her.

    Her parents, uncle and aunt admitted “only one or two slaps” and said that her father shaved her to punish her after she had been on the run with a three-year-old boy for four days.

    “My parents beat me with their hands and feet,” said the young Muslim woman, explaining that they “opposed marriage and their relationship because of religion.”

    Her family members deny that version and claim that they did not beat the girl, and the father says that he “just shaved her, and her mother slapped her twice”.

    However, that explanation, along with a serious medical examination – broken ribs and numerous hematomas, due to which the girl spent two weeks in the hospital, was not convincing enough for the judges.

      1. France expelled the Muslim family from Bosnia, after beating their daughter and shaving her hair because she expressed a desire to marry a Serb, the French Ministry of Internal Affairs announced.

        The ministry stated that five members of the girl’s family in the eastern city of Besançon were deported to Sarajevo this morning, October 24.

        The statement adds that the underage girl will be taken care of by social services, and when she reaches the adult age, she will acquire the right to reside in France.

        French media reported in August that the family had beaten a 17-year-old Muslim girl from Bosnia and cut her hair off her head because she wanted to marry a 20-year-old Serb.

  11. https://theprint.in/national-interest/trump-or-biden-doesnt-matter-to-india-us-ties-as-theyre-in-a-full-strategic-embrace/529935/

    “In Goswami Tulsidas’s Ramcharitmanas, an irate Lord Ram lays down an important principle in all relationships, whether among human beings or nations. “Bin bhay hote na preet (nobody loves you unless they fear you).” He might have said it then to justify exercising his own formidable strengths, but it also works in reverse.

    …… Today, no such hesitations remain. A choice is made, in Washington and New Delhi. It is a full embrace. It is also bipartisan in both countries, especially in the US, where a change within a week is a real possibility. That is the reason this 2+2 is taking place even a week before the Americans vote.”

    1. Is there a source that discusses the differences between the ramcharitmanas vs original/as close as possible to the original version of ramayana

  12. The word caste is problematic. It does not capture any of the complexities of Jati and Varna.

    There isn’t a Varna problem (no riots) in Indian society today – but there are very strong Varna based safeguards in Indian society. Example – Indian businessmen keep on trying to enter the Lok Sabha ( Lower House of parliament) but are thwarted or relegated to powerless positions. Of course, there are politicians who have built up businesses but never the other way around. Indian society has a strong aversion to Baniyas ending up in administrative positions (Hemu). A Trump trajectory can never happen in India.

    The endogamy that is seen has no relation to current Varna but is possibly the remnants of past Varna that was centred in a village setting.

    Jati is much more temporal than Varna, it’s manifestations in politics have very specific grievances. And political compulsions (Maya allying with Brahmins) act as a breaker for the extremist factions in every level of Indian society. So Jati Politics is a welcome thing, it quenches the extremist voices. And Varna safeguards act against centralisation of power (pillarisation).

    Anglophones have zero comprehension of the seafloor – they merely gaze at the surface thanks to an outdated lexicon.

    1. A new paper — spanning the period from 5000 to about 500 BCE — has been published with startling implications: It states that steppe communities did not undertake large-scale migrations; they generally lived in their respective environmental zones. Steppe theory, however, argues that large scale migration was a feature of Steppes. The study raises the following questions:

      1. How did technologies, such as wagons, metal usage, domestic horses, etc. spread?
      2. How could PII and Tocharian undertake long range migrations thousand of Kilometres long? Why don’t we see the proof on the ground?

      References
      Diet and subsistence in Bronze Age pastoral communities from the southern Russian steppes and the North Caucasus

      1. It states that steppe communities did not undertake large-scale migrations

        Where does this paper say that? I checked it out and the only occurrence of the word “migration” is in one of its references (to a Lazaridis paper). The abstract doesn’t say anything like what you state above. I confess I didn’t read the full paper though.

        1. Large scale migrations — spanning several hundred kilometers and across multiple environmental zones — were not a general feature of the Steppes; people were not very mobile in those times. They mention this in various sections, e.g., the conclusion section:

          “”
          The Bronze Age is widely considered a time of increased mobility that allowed for an inter-regional spread of innovations, raw materials and goods in the North Caucasus area. Archaeogenetic investigations of human burials from central Europe point to substantial population shifts being associated with people who originated in contexts of the Yamnaya culture [90, 91]. On the other hand, the light stable isotope data presented here indicate human home ranges that did not regularly cross the transitions between different environmental zones.
          “”

          A lot more research is needed right now in my opinion as there is ADNA evidence too, as mentioned in the paper.

          1. Large scale migrations — spanning several hundred kilometers and across multiple environmental zones — were not a general feature of the Steppes; people were not very mobile in those times. They mention this in various sections, e.g., the conclusion section:

            this is bullshit. the afanasievo people of Xinjiang were genetically identical to the yamna ppl of the volga. unless they had a wormhole they carted their way across the steppe.

            they’re fucking agro-pastoralists. they moved laterally across an ecozone of thousands of kilometers.

            you’re injecting feces into the information slip stream. starting to piss me off.

      2. A new paper — spanning the period from 5000 to about 500 BCE — has been published with startling implications: It states that steppe communities did not undertake large-scale migrations; they generally lived in their respective environmental zones

        1) the paper doesn’t really say that

        2) there is plenty of ancient DNA historical and other evidence that steppe communities DID engage in large scale migrations

        3) these sorts of comments make me think you’re kind of retarded. you misinterpret one paper and you think that that is the last word when there are dozens of contrary papers. that’s just stupid

      3. @Everyone
        I read it. @Razib is right; this study in itself proves nothing. However, it does argue that large scale migration was not a regular feature.

        I was interested in discussing the theories regarding the spread of the Steppe people. What do you all think? How did Steppe people spread? Was it a very slow or fast process? How did various technologies spread?

    2. Sad because India would do better under more capitalist minded banias. The culture is more conducive to growth.

      1. For real growth you still need a communitarian spirit, the “Capitalist mind” is already present in India, sadly it is more along the lines of “hoarde as much wealth as possible and growth for me me me”

        Best hope for India would be a mass exodus of native English speaking diaspora members from the West into India to form a new elite, this elite would have no caste consciousness and all linguistic barriers would be negligible and based purely on English dialect (American, British, Australian, Kiwi etc)

        What could catalyse such a remigration is anyone’s guess.

        1. That’s true. Caste, ethnic, and religious unity/tolerance is important but under a secular and consistent context. There are still enough goofy socialist bastions at the state level and ongoing Naxalite insurgencies on the fringes. There is also way too much pandering to different religious entities. This stuff needs to be reigned in. India needs its Ataturk.

          I am happy Modi is at least breaking down protectionist barriers somewhat. He is too religious for my taste and attempted a few too many schemes without the best economic thought input, but he is now trending towards more market based reform that will have short term pains but long terms gains. And he is one of the few political leaders to be able to get away with it, perhaps the only one this current generation will see

          1. Societies in general are more receptive to Socialism when there are certain groups who are perceived to be benefiting exclusively from capitalism and free markets at the expense of others. In early 20th century, Slavs latched on to Marxism as a tool to first push out the “Germanic” elite. If you look at India, most of the socialist posturing in Bengal is anti Marwari feeling. If Bengalis had their own trading/mercantile class/caste which was integrated with peasant/cultivating class then the story would have been very different. Similarly in MH, Marathas are in competition with Brahmins and together they are in competition with Gujaratis,Sindhis and Parsis in Mumbai. Overall MH is still business friendly as long as you nod to local sensibilities. In Punjab, the current farm reform bill is seen as benefiting reliance at the cost of jats and Sikhs. The real sustainable way for free markets to entrench in India is having successful entrepreneurs from across the caste hierarchy.

  13. As I have stated repeatedly,
    “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution”

    Theodosius Dobzhansky, 1973

    “Nothing in S Asia Makes Sense Except in the Light of the Steppe to AASI ratio”

    People may not know words like Steppe or AASI. But all surrogate markers from skin color to “sharp” features point towards that direction.

    thewarlock, 2019

    Haleem gang is a minor but important influence. Krumpet gang is even more minor.

    Jai Shri Ameen
    May the Jungle father give you strength
    May the Sky father smile upon you
    May the River mother bless you

    1. You do understand the political Varna camps, right? – Congress is the group of “de-racinated/enlightened” Brahmins (Chacha first) working for the upliftment of “Sudras”. Whereas BJP is the “Bania” party that has radicalised the degraded Kshatriya OBCs to take up Hindutva.

      1. Enough shudra OBCs are allied with BJP. BJP is succeeding because of OBC allies. It is more regional now than caste based. I think you are referring to more of old order. Currently is mostly regionalist S Indians, Punjabis, and Bengalis who are anti BJP. Even Shiv Sena is lucky with the stunt they pulled because Marathas support BJP and they thought their vote for Sena was a BJP vote. Gujarati OBCs like Patels are hardcore pro BJP.

        1. “Currently is mostly regionalist S Indians, Punjabis, and Bengalis who are anti BJP.”

          Less-Hindu regions

        2. @warlock Since you mentioned this and the Patel affirmative action agitation stuff in another comment.

          Guj patidars are not currently granted OBC status ie they are general category. This is what the reservation protests are about.

          There is political tension with OBC groups as they don’t want to have to share the OBC quota with patidars.

          This is relevant because the leader of the patels agitating for OBC status supports congress.

          1. yes that’s my whole general point. UCs are mixed on support of AA and don’t have power in numbers to change it anyway.

            The real death knell will he OBCs rioting and using numbers and power to grab it. Ironically, it is more Congress I supported because of pattern of caving into regional casteist pressure under the guise of “federalism.” The strong center BJP actually tried to stand up to these rioters and shut them down.

            BJP are more of SC and dalit sympathizers than Congress I in this sense, a party who will desert them as soon as the casteist OBC base agitates.

    2. It is not just bania hatred. It is local Vs outsider. When you have banias integrated into society like in TN, AP or even in KA, you don’t get this level of animosity. This is root cause of support for socialism in India.

    1. @Nasimhadeva, what does he mean by banning manusmriti ? Is MS being used by indian government as a law book ? How many people in india had ever heard of manusmriti before internet penetration ? Afaik, the only guys who diligently read MS and publicize it by burning it are these left radicals ?

      1. “the only guys who diligently read MS and publicize it by burning it are these left radicals”

        couldn’t have said it any better. If this guy just wanted to ban MS because of the reasons he puts forward and not with any ulterior motive, like strawmanning hindutva, he would’ve also wanted to ban quran, bible etc too

    1. The Mughals never actually called themselves Mughals, they were known as Gurkani / Timuri.. Babur had patrilineal descent from Timur, and Genghis from his mother’s side. During Taimur’s time, having Mongol ancestry was all the rage and while Taimur did not have it, he wanted to make sure his descendants had so he married into it.

      Mughal was a Persian derogatory word later used for the Mughals. Babur never claimed himself Mongol rather he despised the Mongols and used to say that “Mischief and devastation must always be expected from the Mughals horde and ‘ ….. were the Mongols a race of angles, it would still be a vile nation’.”

      All in all, the ‘Mughals’ that ruled India had very little if anything to do with Mongols.

      So ‘TrueIndology’ is misguiding people a bit, like always.

    2. some pak nationalist guy on quora likes to argue constantly that this is a misnomer. he could be right, but I am not that well informed on this topic. But the guy’s argumentation is along the lines of Mughals are originally Uzbek, something we can all expect. But that the paternal line descends through Timur and is thus turkic rather than Mongol.

      Maybe Razib can enlighten us on this nuance

      1. Correction: Mughals weren’t Uzbek. Babar was a Turk (at least patrilineally) who belonged to the ruling dynasty (on and off) of Ferghana and Samarkand, and who was driven out of his homeland by the Uzbeks (which is why Ferghana and Samarkand lie in a country named Uzbekistan today). He despised Uzbeks for this reason.

        1. yes, the uzbeks were relatively recent migrants from the golden horde, and claimed descent from the ulus of jochi though were totally turkic by then. but unlike the timurids they were paternal descendants of genghis khan

        2. I think Mughals, Mongol, Turk, Uzbeks et all , for Indians its all the same, just like for the Americans all browns are same.

    1. May be true to some degree. But be careful. Online Jatt trolls will use these minority cases to claim only the light skinned more west eurasian looking peoples are true jats and rest are fake jats to distance when reality is only minority of typical N Indian looking Jats are do called SC ones faking it.

      Remember SC have big incentive to keep last names for benefits. Never underestimate the Jatt racialists. They are hell bent on proving how “west asian and foreign looking” they are

      1. @Warlock Any reason why Jats are not found after Western U P ? For example: Jats are not found in Central UP, East UP or Magadh belt. What could be the reason ? Why in UP they are only confined till west UP, and even in W UP most are in bordering districts of UP with Hry and Rajasthan. Whereas Brahmins all over India and Rajputs are easily till Magadh belt in East

        1. @RS
          Probably because Jaats/Jatts are not a caste. At least in the varna sense (tiered system with Brahmins, Kshatriya, etc.) of the word. They are part of NW South Asia’s “avarna” groups (mostly restricted to Jammu, Punjab, Haryana, West UP and parts of Rajasthan) who assimilated to various extents into the preexisting Indo-Aryan Vedic culture.

          Also, it’s not just Jatts but also groups such as Kamboj, Arain, Saini, Awan, Tarkhan/Ramgarhia, Gujjar, etc. who fit this mold. All groups restricted to NW South Asia.

          1. Also, it’s not just Jatts but also groups such as Kamboj, Arain, Saini, Awan, Tarkhan/Ramgarhia, Gujjar, etc. who fit this mold. All groups restricted to NW South Asia.
            @Paindu
            A little disagree, there are some Muslim kamboj in Central UP, do Google Mali groups for Saini. Awan is an obscure group ( so can’t comment). Tarkhan/Khati are there in many states. So, not true.

          2. @Paindu is it because Jat migration happened later than Brahmins, Rajputs, Vaishyas etc and was mostly on foot compared to war like horses.

          3. I don’t think they were part of original caste genesis. But it can be argued they pretty function like a caste. Castes are just mini tribes of endogamous people really who do similar occupation. They pretty much fit that bill.

          4. @RS
            AFAIK, Kamboj are not native to UP. Their origins lie in greater Punjab/Pakistan and potentially around Gandhara before that. Tarkhan/Ramgarhia + Khatri are native to greater Punjab (incl Haryana). They are migrants to places like UP or Gujarat.

            Also, Gujjars supposedly originate from Rajasthan. They later spread to and settled in the Punjab, Jammu/AJK/Kashmir or parts of KPK. Many of these avarna groups can be found out NW South Asia today but that does not make them native to their regions.

            @thewarlock

            Functioning like a caste does not make them a caste. They fall out of the Vedic Indo-Aryan varna caste system and are not found natively in any region outside of NW South Asia. However, I do believe that by adapting Vedic Indo-Aryan culture, they “blended” into it over time.

          5. @paindu there is no proof of Gujjar migrating from south rajasthan and modern day gujarat. The gurjara word being used is as a term for place there since time immemorial. No concrete proof to suggest that term was used for a community. For example even Medieval Muslim Gujarat sultan dynasty was called gujareshwar, gurjara etc. Similar any clan ruler who ruled over Gujarat or South Rajasthan was named with that term gujareshwar. So, no concrete proof of any relation of that ancient term with a today’s community. FYI, Gujjar community is not even found today in south Rajasthan and Gujarat.

            Secondly Google Khati/ a term for tarkan community it is there in many North states.
            Google Mali for Saini. It is used in some states.
            Punjabi khatri case is different.
            And if I use your logic, brahmins have also migrated, so has bania or rajputs in many regions, this is true based on their clans. The only thing is Jat couldn’t move beyond West UP? What could be the reason for it? That was my initial questions
            Don’t you think you are contradicting with your answer here if some converted Kambojs whose roots are supposed to be in NW can be found in Central UP, why are Jats not found there ? Was there any fencing on outskirts West UP for this particular group!! Just curious.

          6. @Paindu
            Do you think Punjabi sikh samples(from Uk) are overall representative of Indian punjabi biradris?, since biradris are somewhere between 60-70% of Punjab population.
            I think they are fairly representative, They are bit more AASI shifted than Jatt sikhs and bit less AASI shifted than Tarkhans, since jatt sikhs are around 25-30% of punjab population and remaining 40% of population are occupied by other biradris?
            What do you think?

          7. @paindu many if not most non-Brahmin castes are regional all over India. Not confined to the north west.

          8. @Paindu bro, Mali samaj who use Saini are there in Haryana, Rajasthan as well as UP including beyond West UP in Central UP and Rohilkhand as well. I checked from somewhere. So, ithey are definitely outside punjb.

            “Regarding, Mali and Saini, it is the same community. In Haryana, they are called Mali. However, Sainis are not found natively outside greater Punjab”.

        2. @RS
          I never specified that Gujjar migrated from Southern Rajasthan let alone Gujarat. However, I believe the general theory has them originating in Rajasthan. In fact, the Damgaard study Indian Gujjar samples were from Rajasthan. The Pakistani Gujjar samples are from the nomadic Gujjar community of KPK.

          Regarding Khati, I spoke to my Tarkhan acquaintance. Apparently, Khati are the original community associated with carpentry in Punjab and other parts of Northern India. Tarkhans took over their role in Punjab but they do not intermarry with them and see themselves as distinct.
          Of course, Brahmins and to a lesser extent Bania and Rajputs have migrated throughout India. However, the Brahmins did initially to “spread the Indo-Aryan tool kit” while the Bania did as a merchant community (similar to Khatri who can be found from Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan to Gujarat and UP).

          As for Jatts, they are a farming/landowning community. So, at the very least, there was no reason to migrate past the Indus/Ganges plains for better land or work.

          Finally, regarding Kamboj, AFAIK, their original occupation was small scale farming. After partition, many who left the “greater” Punjab became merchants and settled throughout Northern India.

          1. @Akhilesh

            Yes, the UK Punjabi Sikh samples should be fairly representative of most Indian Punjabi biradaris. Their coordinates were posted on anthrogenica and I’ve messed around with the dataset on G25 and PCA’s.

            UK Sikhs are mostly Jatt followed by Tarkhan with smaller amounts of Gujjars, Khatris, Kamboj, Saini, Rajput etc.

          2. @Paindu thanks. You do make sense on most point.
            “As for Jatts, they are a farming/landowning community. So, at the very least, there was no reason to migrate past the Indus/Ganges plains for better land or work.”
            True but the central UP also has Ganges, so does East UP and Magadh belt having river Ganga for agricultural lands. I think only reason jats didn’t went to these areas could be them being later addition to the existing society in West UP itself. So, their migration was less than say brahmins, banias, or rajputs etc.

          3. @Paindu Mali and Saini case? What is your view on this. Because in most areas Mali samaj guys use Saini surname. Also who are Labana in Punjab?

            Who are Manhas Clan in Punjab ? Mohyals in punjb? I guess you are from punjab. So you would be knowing all this.

          4. @RS

            Regarding, Mali and Saini, it is the same community. In Haryana, they are called Mali. However, Sainis are not found natively outside greater Punjab.

            Labana are originally a salt trading community of Punjab. Though, they are now mostly agriculturalists.

            Manhas are a Rajput clan but in some instances, you can find Manhas or even Rana Jatt Sikhs. These names were likely adopted by Jatts in Punjab.

            Mohyal are a Brahmin community of Punjab and from the broader Saraswat Brahmin community. Most are Hindu but some identify as Sikh and some converted to Islam. I believe many Mohyal of Punjab used to live in West Punjab/Potohar/Jammu areas.

      2. “Remember SC have big incentive to keep last names for benefits. ” — @thewarlock, afaik, caste certificates are not tied to keeping surnames so, one can get caste certificate even if he/she uses different surnames. I know many dalits who use the last name Singh, some even use surnames like Yadav, Chauhan, Goyal.

          1. ““caste certificates are not tied to keeping surnames”
            …..or Religion” — @Saurav, but SC certificate is indeed tied to religion where once an SC/dalit guy becomes either a Muslim or Christian,he can’t get SC certificate. He may be eligible for OBC reservations in some states as in some states, SC converts to christianity are placed in OBC list.

  14. https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/the-battle-after-dussehra-5408129/lite/?__twitter_impression=true

    The battle after Dussehra

    “The people here is not people understood in a democratic sense; it is the norms of the people. That Ram who can vanquish Ravana cannot vanquish cultural norms; for this he needs outside assistance, the help of poets and seers.

    Ram is reduced to pathetic self-doubt over truth. Sita puts him out of his misery and constant vacillation, by settling the question of her truth, once and for all, by returning to her mother Earth. Of course, Ram is in a sense broken by this grief. Rescuing Sita from Ravana was easier; rescuing her truth from cultural norms, the weight of public opinion, almost impossible. In fact, there is something so merciless about those cultural norms that they invert everything: Due process becomes injustice, the accusers become the accused.

    While Ram and Sita may be theologically incomplete without each other, the weight of gender norms makes their union impossible. It is almost as if Valmiki ends up saying: The battle that ends at Vijayadashmi was a cake walk. The battle that comes after is the one Sita will have to fight alone: There is no redeemer like Ram who will fight this battle. The conventional truth is not her ally. Sita will one day take the initiative. And then see all other truths fall by the wayside.”

  15. Here almost all are talking about some 4000 yrs migration which is long time back with no clear memories. Do we not know that many Tom Dick Harry came after them till Islamic invaders? Example Parthians, Indo-Greek, Kushanas, Sakas, Hunas, the list is too long as well as some obscure nomadic migration of Non-Ms group from near Bolan pass. Any analysis on them? Who are related to these Indo-Greek, Parthian, Kushanas, Sakas, Hunas etc?

      1. @Razib okay how is this Scythian being differentiated from Indo-Aryans?. I am not a geneticist, but common sense says they would be carrying similar components to Indo-aryans. Let us not forget Saka/ Hunas/Kushanas who entered here were mostly same to Indo-aryans (if any) , just they entered late ( time frame difference), and weren’t initially accepted by the supposed Indo-aryans present here ( if any such thing was there).
        As far as History is concerned, Parthians, Indo-Greeks, Sakas, Kushanas, Hunas migration is accepted even in any Hindu or local history. So, as per history there is no question mark on scythian incomers from any side as compared to Indo-aryans.

    1. ‘Bolan’ is a Serbian word which means ‘painful’. We already wrote about this. There are also some other Serbian toponyms, which remained from Aryans period, in its proximity including ‘Leepa’ (i.e. phonetic – Lipa) meaning ‘linden’, the place where was recent conflict btw India and Pakistan. All toponyms that contain ‘mir’ are Serbian.

      1. PS: Quick skimming of this thread found some other Serbian words in various contexts – ravana, ram, kamboja, ravnas, gollas, mali, rana, laban…

  16. UPSC results came out today. To give some idea of the odds: a million candidates and about 400-ish seats (including 50% reserved seats). Going by the numbers it is easier to become an American Astronaut or win an olympic medal than getting into IAS(<150 seats). One of the brightest guys I know is feeling so bad for not having made it. On the other hand I had known the people at the newest Indian Unicorn startup Razorpay, quite bright people first became famous for making sdslabs at IIT-R and casually hacking into the university computers in their first year. In 5 years these guys built a company now worth a billion dollars, just 3 years ago one of them admitted that he really didn't know what was going to become of the company and whether it is worth the effort. Having known both the sides involved I can't even quantify the amount of talent going to waste in this mad rat race of UPSC. The exam is clearly random, if you work reasonably hard at cram school you get into a good engineering college, but UPSC is sickeningly unpredictable.

    1. @bhimrao

      If you really think getting a UPSC spot is harder than winning a place in NASA’s astronaut class, then god help your logic skills. There is really no comparison my dude. Nowhere near the same level of arbitrariness, competition and selectivity. Not even in the same planet.

    2. Case in point: Jonny Kim, one of the candidates from the most-impressive NASA astronaut candidate class of 2017.

      “ Jonathan Kim (born 1984) is an American US Navy lieutenant (and former SEAL), physician, and NASA astronaut.”

      No UPSC candidate comes close to that level of achievement. And the other astronaut candidates are just as impressive, in other disciplines.

      And it’s not like Jonny had a rosy childhood, either: his father was shot to death in his own home by police, when Jonny was just a child; they responded to a domestic violence call and he brandished a gun, leading to a fatal shootout. Makes his achievements even more impressive. Phenomenal group of people in general.

    3. @Bhimrao, only prelims results came out, Mains and interview exans are yet to happen .
      Re razor pay, one of the founders was a schoolmate lol.

  17. The name Mogul is derived from the Persian form of the name Mogol for Mongol, which comes from the Aryans – mangula, evil, misfortune, trouble, but also a mistake or violation of the principle, whence the medical term “Mongolism”. The word Mogul is misinterpreted from the Greek ‘mogul’ – the great – which was also derived from the Aryans – meg’a – great.

  18. upsc has more people allowed to try. the most difficult things limit even those who have a shot at attempting directly via years of direct and indirect prescreening and also require more of a mix of different skills than only paper testing

  19. khabib is an inspiration for many. Some will even convert to Islam or take their faith more seriously because of him. He is the new Ali.

    Hindus need to produce such men of mythical stature in sports. Not too hopeful about in the near future…

    1. @thewarlock
      Don’t really want to delve too deep into politics but based on my observations, the majority of diaspora Sikhs are not fans of Nikki Haley and that’s putting it lightly.

      It might may be partially related to the dichotomy of Indian nationalism between US Sikhs and Hindus but based on my experience, most Sikhs here lean very left with Hindus having more variety on the political spectrum.

      1. I am telling you man, it is Khalistani influence. Sikhs are conservative in terms of valuing the family, hardwork, belief in using charity rather than welfare to help the poor, and keeping government out of personal life.

        The thing is that the Khalistan movement is allied with the Islam crew and the Left heavily courts that crew. You have a socialist islamist global nexus. And the Hindu and gangetic plain hating elements of the Khalistani movenent of the West have made an unholy alliance with various Islamic backed entities, including sadly the Pak ISI, one of the best funded global jihadist sponsors in the world.

        Also, playing the Woke game is easier for identity politics. And Jat Sikhs who are heavily influenced by Khalistan movement are the epitome of identity politics. The Left loves it.

        Hindus are more of a mixed bag for sure. But really it is N Indian Hindus. Bengali and S Indian ones, especially Brahmins, still lean hard left due to their unfortunate misunderstanding of leftist economics that has become cultural at this point.

        The most ironic thing I see is BLM support, when the AASI is so heavily denigrated, though indirectly, by much of the Pak and Birdari Sikh crowd. I have heard them talk shit about “chamars and churras” even in the West and enough slander about dark short ugly S Indians and conniving Gujaratis. They support one form of black for their political convenience. But disown the Black that is their minority ancestry and present in their own countries. SAD.

        Also read some quora posts about Punjabis “losing aryan features 2/2 race mixing.” I mean it is so extreme. So much of this desire for more state autonomy has nothing to do with protecting “Punjabi culture.” Hell the test of N India has embraced the shit out of it, courting sometimes to a laughable degree. So much of it is a lineage protection game, one sadly with heavy racialist underpinnings

        1. @thewarlock

          Not going to get into too much detail but I’ll share some of my thoughts.

          I don’t think it’s necessarily Khalistani influence. Most US Sikhs are settled in or near highly liberal areas of blue states while those in Canada are near the large left leaning metro areas (Toronto and Vancouver). Also, many of us are also not even religious yet are still left leaning (including myself).

          As for identity politics, personally, I would argue that the right isn’t any better. They just go after the conservative “angry white man” vote while trying to convince black Americans that liberals/the left keep them “on the plantation” through welfare. For other minorities, many conservatives suggest white liberals have some “white savior complex” and believe we need to be saved. Honestly, it comes across as if conservative white Americans actually believe we really can’t think for ourselves or that white liberals believe we’re that “stupid.” Perhaps, a bit of both.

          They talk about “individual rights and freedom” but the whole US political system is just so polarized and tribalistic.

          Regarding Hindu Americans, most of the younger generation seems left leaning (at least those outside red states). I’ve spoken to a few people and they’ve told me that their parents are voting for Trump because he is “pro-India” and a huge critic of China (so their votes are influenced by Indian nationalism).

          I imagine a lot of your thoughts on US Sikh behavior is based on personal experience but I wouldn’t read too much into quora posts. The internet tends to attract a lot of the extreme or outlier individuals who say things while hiding beyond anonymity.

          There may be some “lineage protection” motivation for some individuals but for many Sikhism and Punjabiyat is intricately tied to their self-identity and they may feel that they want to preserve it as much as possible with that perspective modern Pakistan and India are kind of pushing away from it.

  20. @Dathang

    I have a genetics related question. Specifically need to reconcile percentages from two papers, is there a way to reach you over email?

    I would appreciate your help about this.

  21. ” in UP dalit castes are very distinct from non-dalits, and brahmins and rajputs from everyone else.” — As i wrote that even in UP, as per narasimhan’s paper, Ahirs/Yadavs turn out to be similar to rajputs in terms of Steppe and AASI(i assume the ‘kshatriya durgavanshi’ samples in that paper were rajputs) .

    @Razib , i have one more question, does “AASI correlating with varna in a region” turn out to be true in the historical region of ‘rajputana’ or present day Rajasthan ? Apart from rajasthani jats here who would have lower AASI but do rajputs of rajasthan have lower AASI than some other land owning castes of rajasthan like Ahirs, Gujjars, Dhakads, Meenas ?

    1. they don’t. look at Reich data. They have AASI not THAT diff from banias. Many are around S Indian Brahmin degree of AASI. Jats are an anomaly. Rajputs are firmly within varna trends.

    2. @td
      Gujjars and Ahirs seem to have lower AASI than Rajputs, Personally i have seen around 10 samples from Rajasthani rajputs, they were similar to UP Rajputs and tbh, they were bit less AASI shifted than South Indian Brahmins.

      1. As far as I have heard many OBC groups also use Rajput word nowadays. I think he was asking for those in general category.

        1. “As far as I have heard many OBC groups also use Rajput word nowadays” — The only ones who do that in my knowledge are ravnas/gollas of rajasthan who are the progenies of rajput lords and their concubines and lodhis of UP. Afaik, the so-called kshatriya_UP samples in pop gen papers belong to ‘real’ thakurs of UP.

          1. My friend in UP lodh and khangar both OBC group also use Rajput surname. Same case in MP with Sondhiya using Rajput word. This is similar to some Gosain and others claiming themselves brahmins.

  22. “look at Reich data. ” — Narasimhan’s paper didn’t have data of Gujjars, dhakads of rajasthan.
    Pathak et al had samples from gujjars of rajasthan who when modelled in terms of Iran_N, Steppe and AASI had less AASI than “kshatriya “(these kshatriya samples belong to UP thakurs iirc) .

    ” Rajputs are firmly within varna trends. ” —- Question i was trying to raise was whether rajputs really have lower AASI on average than *some* other non-jat farming, pastoralist castes of north and west.

    Besides, from what i have read, rajput lords of rajasthan used to have concubines from different castes , progenies of some of whom were regarded as ‘proper rajputs’ while some were not (like ravna/gollas of rajasthan who used to be darogas and servants for their lords and weren’t regarded as proper rajputs) so i assume heterogenity among them .

    1. ravna and gollas case is known. You are talking about Lodhs & Khangars in UP, Sondhiyas in Raj & MP and karadia ( guj ) I guess both are in OBC but are regarded as separate by them. based on below:
      “from what i have read, rajput lords of rajasthan used to have concubines from different castes , progenies of some of whom were regarded as ‘proper rajputs’ “

  23. “Personally i have seen around 10 samples from Rajasthani rajputs, they were similar to UP Rajputs and tbh, they were bit less AASI shifted than South Indian Brahmins.” — @Akhilesh, very interesting, may i ask where you saw them ?

    1. @td
      In Anthrogenica forum, I can send you through mail if you want those samples,
      Note: Only Harappa world results

      1. hmm didn’t know ksyhtria were Thakurs in Reich. Thought they were rajputs. My misunderstanding then

        What is there raw AASI number compared to S Indian Brahmins on admix?

        1. @warlock
          Unfortunately, there are no g25 coordinates for Rajasthani Rajputs, I have seen their harappa world results which average out around 43-45% SI, so i think fairly similar to UP kshatriyas.

          1. thanks. I am 47% asi on harrapa so closer to S Brahmin average.Vanias tend to be around this and Punjabi Banias from what I recall. So your bit less ASI assessment is correct and makes sense on caste cline quite well actually. Gangetic plains banias tend to be like 50-52 % for some reason (maybe heavier asi people in density there mixed with?).

          2. On harrapa there is only one written as rajasthan rajput that too can’t say if general category or some allied group like Sondhiya, Khangars, Ravnas, etc. They all will also write rajput. Only general or OBC can make it clear.

        2. As far as What thakurs/rajputs are considered same. Rajasthan ones also call themselves thakurs only. I guess Thakur is more like Chaudhary title used by many.

          1. “I guess Thakur is more like Chaudhary title used by many.” — @RS, yes, thakur is a title which in UP, has become synonymous with the kshatriyas/rajputs but in neighbouring state bihar, it’s used by many other castes like Maithili brahmin, Bhumihar , Nai(Barber caste) 🙂 .

    2. How is the bhumihar case in East UP and Bihar?. As per British theory they were combo of clans from Brahmins and Rajputs. Though bhumihar themselves always claimed brahmin origin. But their clans tell something else story like lot of clans overlaps with brahmins but I guess some with rajputs as well.

        1. But I guess bhumihars clan overlap with brahmins in many areas but some clan also overlap with rajputs as well. For example Kinwar are bhumihar and rajputs as well. Rajnath is Rajput but of Kinwar Clan. Similar with bhumihar clans overlapping with brahmins like Pandey, Sharma, many with maithili brahmins.

        2. @Sumit, not sure about the claim of bhumihars “going through the sanskritisation process recently” but apart from the fact the they are autosomally closer to brahmins, they also have similar gotras as that of the brahmins. Afaik, the word babhan(बाभन) which is used for bhumihars is actually a eastern prakrit variant of the word brahmin.
          Mohyals of north-west are also removed from “brahmin culture” because of their martial pursuits but no one doubted/doubts their brahmin lineage afaik. As for why the bihari brahmins don’t consider bhumihars as brahmins, i believe this is because of a legend where it’s claimed that the king of magadha once asked for some thousands brahmins, the minister unable to find those many took men from other jaatis, adorned them with janeus and passed them off a brahmins.

          “Similar with bhumihar clans overlapping with brahmins like Pandey, Sharma, many with maithili brahmins. ” — @RS, bhumihars of older gen used to have surnames like thakur, singh, sinha, rai while the newer ones have started using surnames like sharma, pandey, shukla etc 🙂

          1. Not completely true clans of bhumihar overlap with brahmins but some with rajputs as well like Kinwar Clan which is only in Bhumihar and Rajput but not in brahmins. Example Rajnath Singh is Kinwar Clan rajput. This was told to me by my one Rajput friend. Same case with few others.

          2. Yaar I am not talking generic surnames but clan names. The real story is behind clans. For example there is Kinwar Clan of Bhumihars and Rajputs both but Kinwar clan is not in brahmins. So, My point is not regarding their overall brahmin ancestry, but I guess there are some clans of bhumihar overlapping with rajputs which are not present in brahmins.

  24. @RS, i forgot about sonadhiya . Re Gosains, the claims of brahmin status by gosains is because of the fact that they were traditional priests in many shiva temples of the north as far as i know.
    @Akhilesh, can you share your email address 🙂 ?

  25. @Akhilesh bhai, i missed your email id ? . i remember the name but forgot the numerals , just write the numerals that followed the name in your email id, i can understand your intention of not keeping email id in a permanent comment.

  26. Right wing libertarian wing of republican party is not identity politics driven. But Christian Right is. Whole left at this point feels identity politics driven. Thank god Biden is the least on that spectrum.

    Sikh support for socialist politics has to do with how left wing politicians who support socialist economic policies are also hard core Woke type aka grievance olympics connoisseurs, in part, IMO.

    1984 was bad but people don’t even go into how Hindus were targeted by Khalistan movement within Punjab itself for like a decade prior. Diaspora has one sided picture. Then they go ahead and support the same left wing party that perpetrated the pogrom in India and shit on BJP as “nazis.” They also use false equivalence of magnitude by comparing it to the holocaust. I have heard all sorts of insane claims.Then their alliance with Pak is even weirder. Most aren’t like this but man when extreme ones call India genocidal then ally with Pak, the biggest perpetrator of S Asian genocide in the century with Bengal in 71, I just chuckle.

    Then you have the likes JimmySingh in Kaneda who won’t even denounce a straight up Khalistani terrorist, responsible for worst Canadian terror attack in history. He also associates and cozies up with men known to have been involved in terrorism in movement in general. The radical elements and their association with leftist politics is clear as day.

    And millenials in general tend to be Left. And Indians vote like 70% Democrat in the US. They live in liberal areas. So all of those points make sense. But one cannot ignore Khalistani politics and their association with far left politics and oppression olympics participants.

    1. @thewarlock
      Well, libertarians and republicans are not necessarily one in the same (despite agreeing on some issues). I was mostly focused on the Christian right and the whole “proud boy” portion of the party. Regardless, I don’t think you can completely separate white identity politics and US conservatives/Republicans.

      I think you are overgeneralizing Sikh political support in the US being tied to Khalistan. In the US, the idea of Khalistan does not get anywhere the political attention/traction it does in Canada or even the UK for that matter. US left wing politicians don’t really court the Sikh vote from what I’ve observed (our numbers are just too small). Though, I agree that more socialist economic policies is a driving factor in voting trend for Sikhs.

      Regarding 84, the Sikh diaspora has one picture and the Hindu diaspora/India nationals another. I don’t think that will change anytime soon. Regarding BJP, they might have handled 84 even worse than Congress had they been in power then. Who knows?

      As for Pakistan, there is no reason for an ardent Khalistani to not align with them. They do support the cause after all (regardless of what happened in East Pakistan/Bengal).

      Finally, with respect to Jagmeet, I won’t touch on it much. We’re not going to see eye to eye. However, he did eventually denounce Parmar and does not think he should be glorified by any Sikh.

      1. The what ifs are funny about BJP vs. Congress. One party has known conspirators doing those things still going unscathed day to day. And yeah I don’t think you or I will see eye to eye on this matter. But I do think Khalistan is a dangerous terrorist promoting movement and their alliance with the Jihadist promoting entity that is the ISI is disturbing. They ally with people who have committed worse genocides and have killed more Sikhs during era of partition and treat Sikhs worse with bride kidnappings and force conversions and support groups like Taliban who are killing Sikhs in Afghan whereas BJP offers them refuge and makes them part of united dharmic identity. It is very odd.

        Only thing I see in common is racial. Because language sure as hell doesn’t save chamars from mistreatment. A lot of this comes down to surrogates that can be boiled down to steppe:aasi. The Khalistan movement is really more of a Jatt racialist movement in a lot of ways. Sikhism just seems like the cover to me.

        He only denounced Parmar after severe backlash. It is like Trump and proud boys. At least Tradeau has come to his senses and has censured the Khalistani wing of the party. Jimmy will see when both reasonable Sikhs and Hindus migrating en masse now to Canada speak up at the perpetration of lies and alliance with terrorist ISI of Canadian Khalistanis. Not everyone can be brainwashed

        1. @thewarlock

          Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a fan of Congress or the BJP but I can still take a step back and acknowledge that doesn’t mean the BJP would have handled 84 any better (even if it’s a “what if” scenario). Also, at least we’re both on the same page about 84 Congress conspirators/instigators walking freely/unscathed to this day. That’s part of why the diaspora community is still quite distrustful of India.

          As for Khalistan, aligning with ISI does not necessarily mean they’re on the same page as the Taliban or other Jihadist groups. I only see them doing it for funding but I don’t follow these topics in detail. You don’t need ideological agreement when it comes to accepting money. Regarding partition, there were crimes and blood spilt on both sides (Muslim vs. Sikh/Hindu Punjabis). In the diaspora, we’ve moved passed these things and tend to get along fine with Pak Punjabis (especially in the GTA).

          Clarifying, you mean the commonality between Pak Punjabis and Sikh Punjabis to the exclusion of Chamars? If so, there might be some truth to that but not something that can be readily observed consistently either way. I think it’s worth noting that the Khalistan movement had some Khatris, Tarkhan/Ramgarhia and Rajputs in high profile positions. It would be quite difficult to get them on board if it was just a “Jatt” movement with Sikhism as the cover. There was also support from lower caste Sikhs during the 80s. It wasn’t as simple as Jatts vs. everyone else dichotomy.

          Regardless of the backlash, he denounced him. Has Trump denounced his boys yet? Last I remember, he told them to “stand back and stand by” and spent his time in the previous debate crying about antifa and the left.

          Trudeau is a fairly astute politician IMO. Whether he has Sikh politicians in his cabinet who are separatist sympathizers or at the very least not pro India, he got the situation under control. As for your comment about “reasonable Sikhs and Hindus” migrating en masse to Canada, I don’t think the demographic shift is necessarily what you perceive them as. I’ve interacted with some recent Sikh youth migrants to the US and Canada. People espouse different ideas when you aren’t punished for free speech.

  27. @td
    ok problem solved
    here are the results in the below pdf(download the pdf)
    https://smallpdf.com/shared#st=7bd97263-06b8-497e-9640-c57ab862f364&fn=I+am+posting+Rajasthani+Rajput+results+here-converted.pdf&ct=1603644373700&tl=word&rf=link
    6 samples are there,
    7th sample here
    https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved
    other than above 7 samples, i have seen 2 in reddit as well but unfortunately don’t have results right now, they were similar to above samples.(43-45%SI)

    1. These Rajput results are very similar to mine.
      I’m a Rajasthani Jain from a community with claimed Rajput ancestors (stories from Jain literature going back up to a 1000 years, gotras, some customs bear this out somewhat). Gotra: Solanki

      SIndian: 47%
      Baloch: 34%
      Caucasian: 5%
      NE Euro: 6%
      Siberian: 1%
      NE Asian: 3%
      Other: 4%
      Also cluster with S Indian / Maharashtrian/Goan Brahmins in Harappa

        1. Td: Interesting. Didn’t know about Gulab rai but seems like a one off? Do you know of other examples? With how the society was structured and strict Purdah/ ghoonghat and segregation of women which was the norm even until 40 years ago I don’t see a possibility of this being a common occurrence for Jains. Also her Krishna worship mentioned in the article also shows her as atypical (not a Jain thing at all, although Kuldevi/ Shakti worship is).
          FYI, the noble mentioned in the article – Singhvi Bhimraj – that sounds like a Jain name too.

          Btw, are you Rajasthani and/or Rajput?
          Thewarlock :
          Not surprised that we have similar results – MaruGurjar was one large area ( and one language) until 500 years ago and lots of Gujarati Jains are Marwaris who migrated 300 to 500 years ago and some even much more recently. Being familiar with both languages and cultures it’s easy to spot the common substrate underlying Gujarati and Marwari culture / language etc. I believe the divergence started partly due to Rajasthan remaining under native rule while Gujarat came under Islamic rule as early as the 13th century. Plus Gujarat being coastal was perhaps always more liberal and cosmopolitan.
          BTW what are your halpogroups?
          Y dna: R2A – R L266
          Mt DNa: M2

          1. Y is H
            Mt is K1a

            I am the opposite of most. West Eurasian maternal, likely steppe from what I gather (doesn’t seem common for IVC). East Eurasian Paternal.
            Population

            S-Indian 47.67 Pct
            Baloch 37.96 Pct
            Caucasian 3.77 Pct
            NE-Euro 5.02 Pct
            SE-Asian 0.33 Pct
            Siberian 0.58 Pct
            NE-Asian –
            Papuan 0.32 Pct
            American 0.55 Pct
            Beringian 1.04 Pct
            Mediterranean 1.63 Pct
            SW-Asian 1.01 Pc

          2. @Justanotherlurker, no I am not. Just know a little about these things from one of my friend who belong to that region. Yaar Solanki, Chauhan, etc are used by lot many groups. Many Jats also use Solanki though in reality they have a sorout clan which claims Solanki, something like that, it is also used by many more different groups. I guess the real “sept” would be differ in all the cases.

          3. I am not Rajasthani, though what I know from friend is Jains had a respectable position in courts. For example Oswal Jains were ministers.

        2. Somewhere I read she was Jat not Jain. So, it is not clear. But she wasn’t treated well and was separated.

          1. Yes, this link from a Rajput/Indian royals website says she was Jat.

            https://www.royalark.net/India/jodh10.htm

            “1754, Paswanji Gulab Raiji Saiba (k. in her palanquin by two Jodhpur sardars, while on her way to Mehrangarh, 16th April 1792), a lady of the Jat caste who exercised considerable power”

            This book by Sabita Singh: “The politics of marriage in India: Gender and Alliance in Rajasthan..” also says she was Jat…

            Looks like she was Jat afterall. A Marwari Jain concubine in the Jodhpur court just didn’ seem right based on everything I know of the area and the community:)

            RS: Are you Rajasthani or Rajput? If so (or even otherwise) any idea why there is such a preponderance of Rajput sounding gotras among Jains in Southern/Western Marwar? I have tonnes of Parmar and Chauhan relatives, some Rathods too, and many Solankis (including me)..My family has records going back several hundred years, and every one of them calls out the caste as Porwal and gotra as Solanki (no mention of the religion – Jainism in any of the records), so this is not a recent change by any means

    2. I guess Chauhan is used by many groups in Rajasthan who call themselves with the same community name but are in obc.

  28. @warlock

    “Bengali and S Indian ones, especially Brahmins, still lean hard left due to their unfortunate misunderstanding of leftist economics that has become cultural at this point.”

    Do u mean “less hindu” people 😛

  29. The Indian Express has a long feature on Indian-Americans and race in America. Basically, it tells a story most of us would have guessed/known already: a largely insulated community which was indifferent (not hostile) to blacks, with some casual racism mixed in for the 1st gen NRIs.

    What stuck out to me, however, was the dominance of women in pushing activism. Perhaps this is a reflection of the fact that the journalist is a woman, but it really does seem that young women (15-30) in the community are pushing for change the most. If that is the case, I wonder why that’d be. Do women have a higher capacity for empathy than men and if so, is that biological?

    1. Do women have a higher capacity for empathy than men and if so, is that biological?

      I think that on average they do have more empathy.

      I have been deliberately trying to cultivate more empathy and compassion over the past few years for spiritual reasons and I think I have been moderately successful.

      So I don’t think it is completely set in stone, although I am sure there is a biological element.

    2. From the article

      “Shikha knows her parents might not be on board with defunding the police or reparations.”

      Yeah we are going the right way

  30. RE: Deadly dust – a banned film about depleted uranium

    A film about the consequences of the use of depleted uranium in NATO campaigns around the world. This film, once shown in the German-speaking area, has been banned, and its author still suffers the consequences due to his courage to deal with this topic.

    The German-produced documentary “Deadly Dust”, signed by Frieder Wagner, talks about war crimes in the former Yugoslavia, especially in Bosnia, Serbia, but also in Iraq. The use of depleted uranium created a genocide against these countries, which is not remembered in the history of mankind, even the Nazi crimes remained small compared to this genocide, which still lasts and will unfortunately last almost forever.

    In the contaminated areas, people are still in danger, without many even knowing it, which is the most terrible because this is an invisible genocide about which the public must be informed.

  31. Sikhs will remain aligned with Pakistanis against Hinduvadis because Hinduvadis refuse to acknowledge why Sikhs don’t like them, and instead invent make believe reasons (Khalistan theocracy, Jat racism, liberalism).

        1. Khalistani and Khalistani sympathisers tend to seek out Pak Punjabis with a begging bowl to fund propaganda campaigns. You have to stay friends with sugar daddy, even if he raped your mommy awhile back. Because hey guess what, your great uncle might have raped his sister. But all is forgiven as a display of maturity to get back at evil people of the 80s. Oh wait! Let’s hate on the arch rivals of those evil people too.

    1. I think someone once mentioned that you’re an atheist or something

      As an experiment, have you ever considered going to Pak and publicly declaring that you’ve left islam and don’t believe in god? ?

      “Sikhs will remain aligned with Pakistanis against Hinduvadis”

      Not sure if troll or not, but you probably meant Khalistanis

      There are only 6k Sikhs in pak today, as per pak’s national database, not sure what kind of “alignment” you’re expecting

  32. Most Sikhs align with Pakistani Punjabis naturally, you can just see it in the Canadian diaspora. They don’t even have to be Khalistani for that. Obviously this rubs some right wing Hindus the wrong way and que the rants against the Sikhs or Jatt racism and what not. I also don’t understand several comments as to Punjabis being so racist.. While I cannot speak as to the motivations of Indian Punjabi Sikhs, Pakistani Punjabis are the least racist/endogamous of all ethnic groups in Pakistan. Infact Pak Punjabis highly prefer to marry Pak-Muhajirs from the Gangetic plains and such marriages are common (including in my family), so race/biradari plays a much smaller role here.

    Perhaps if Hindus of other ethnicities don’t put Punjabis (especially Sikh) on such a pedestal as to calling them the sword arm of Hinduism or coveting their physical features, the Sikhs would be more receptive towards them.

    1. “Pakistani Punjabis are the least racist/endogamous of all ethnic groups in Pakistan. Infact Pak Punjabis highly prefer to marry Pak-Muhajirs from the Gangetic plains and such marriages are common”

      Any source for this? Or is this just purely anecdotal? I’ve read about pak’s consanguinity rate being pretty high

      It’s the first time I’m reading this statement

      1. High consanguinity results because of a combination of arranged marriage culture and Islam’s acceptance of cousin marriages, the first natural choice for many mothers looking for daughter in law is within her own extended family. This is common in some communities in Punjab and Sindh, less so amongst Pasthuns.

        There were some studies done which showed the highest consanguinity is found amongst landowners, which makes sense that they would want to keep the assets within the family.

        So consanguinity is a separate issue & its relation to race/class is weak at best.

        What I am talking about is personal anecdote found in Pakistan, which I am pretty confident on. Punjabis marrying Muhajirs and city dwelling Pasthuns are quite common nowadays, possibly because both these groups are coveted by them. In my experience Pak Punjabis are also least likely to show supremacy of their own culture or take pride in their race/caste/ethnicity/language when compared to other groups.

        1. “In my experience Pak Punjabis are also least likely to show supremacy of their own culture or take pride in their race/caste/ethnicity/language when compared to other groups.”

          Literally saw a comment on FB a few minutes ago where a pakistani claimed the ancestors of pakistanis are mughals

          This isn’t something new, go to quora, reddit, fb or anywhere else, you’ll see more of the same supremacy stuff, I don’t think I need to tell you all this, you know it as well as I do

          “Pak Punjabis are also least likely to show supremacy of their own culture or take pride in their race/caste/ethnicity/language”

          Most of the supremacy is veiled in religion

          And I mainly asked because you brought up muhajirs
          Because 99% of time whenever I see pakistanis mention muhajirs, it’s because pakistanis blame them for making their country look darker/uglier

          1. Firstly, nobody seriously considers the Mughals as their ancestors.. If you are going to go by online posts made by teenage trolls, then you will only be misguided. People revere the Mughals because they were Muslim, the same reason they also now revere the Ottomans after Ertugrul (smh), or the Rashidun Caliphate because of Islam. The real descendants of Mughals are the ones whose last name is Mirza xx Baig or Mughal, and they are quite proud of it.

            Secondly, once again you must have only read that on the internet about Muhajirs. In reality, many of the Muhajirs are fairer than your average middle class or rural Punjabi, probably because most of the Muhajirs belonged to affluent/high caste ancestry back in India.

            A lot of the misconception comes because of MQM’s infamy in Pakistan, it’s founder Altaf Hussain was pretty dark and a clown figure, and by the time social media rolled in, most of MQM’s upper class support base had defected to PTI leaving some of the lower class Muhajirs as representative of the community. A lot of Punjabis who have never actually met any Muhajirs because they live in cities in Punjab started to associate them with all Muhajirs.

            It’s not the “dark” comments that is a common insult to Muhajirs because there is very little substance or truth to it except when a Pasthun is making it.. I remember that back I participated in facebook groups, very few Punjabis could make that comment because everyone had their photos up. However if any ethnicity wants to insult Muhajirs, they call them ”Indians” or Hindustani, this is taken as an allegation of treason.

            And if you so enquire, the reason why a lot of Muhajirs intermarry with Punjabis (especially in Karachi) is because of Urdu high culture that Punjabis have adopted from Muhajirs. Punjabis want to speak Urdu which is the national language so Urdu speaking community which is also mostly educated and speak in a proper Urdu accent is considered elite. Marriage is the ultimate litmus test, and almost half the marriages in my extended family are between Muhajirs and Punjabis.. a couple of my cousins have married Pasthun and Kashmiri as well, and I can speak personally here that I got a very high percentage of interest from Punjabi and Pasthun families for ”rishta” when I was a bachelor. So to me, I don’t see the charges of endogamy being levelled against Pak Punjabis.

          2. “Firstly, nobody seriously considers the Mughals as their ancestors”

            There is literally a caste named Mughal in Pakistan

          3. @Saurav

            Read my full comment, I acknowledge the last name Mughal along with Beg. Secondly, how do you define a caste? They intermarry.. My best friend is someone whose last name is Mughal. Muhajir background, lot of wealth. They are not endogamous.

          4. @S Qureishi, Ali Choudhury

            Psychologically speaking, I’ve always found that stereotypes are rather revealing.

            In the Pakistani context, Pashtuns often are pegged as being all-brawn-no-brain, and as having a unique societal-wide liberality with respect to homosexuality.

            And I think that this says much more about Punjabis and Muhajirs in relation to Pashtuns, rather than saying anything substantive about Pashtuns themselves.

            When disentangling the stereotypes, the dumb/simple notion seems rather restricted to Muhajirs; Punjabis don’t trade in it. Which makes sense: like Pashtuns, many Punjabis are rural people (and are themselves often on the receiving end of jokes concerning rusticity). One imagines that Muhajirs being a completely urban population (and by far the most educated population in Pakistan) puts them in a unique position to say such things about Pashtuns and Punjabis.

            Speaking particularly of Pashtuns, it doesn’t help that our Urdu can be quite bad. But that isn’t a very fair reason for doubting our intellects (lol).

            ^ It would be rather similar to the French assuming that the Irish are a race of idiots, simply because their attempts at the French language sound jarring.

            I mean, Pashto is an Iranic language. On average, Urdu will never be our strong suit. By way of natural contrast, in Afghanistan our Dari is vastly better. (Everywhere you go in Afghanistan, a majority of Pashtuns can speak clear Dari)

            The homosexuality stereotype is even more interesting, considering the actual realities involved. I mean, pederastry is well documented in the Greater Punjab; they call it lohnda bazi. It’s actually pretty common in rural areas.

            If truth be told, pederastry is a well-known problem all across Central Asia, the West Asian highlands, and in the parts of South Asia with ancient ties to Central and West Asia (again, essentially the Greater Punjab). It also exists as a widescale problem in some populations of the Caucasus, and was once quite common in parts of the Balkans.

            And looking at ancient history, there are theories that the peoples of the Eurasian steppes might have also engaged in such practices (there’s a paper on this somewhere, will have to find), and I’m sure that we’re all well aware of the ancient Greeks. Speaking of the latter, their writings on this matter can offer considerable embarrassment to anyone who looks to them as a model for emulation.

            But anyway, coming back to the present day, I’ve always found it odd that people assume that this is a uniquely Pashtun problem, even though it occurs in the Punjab too (and is a socially valorized practice only among Tajiks and Uzbeks, if we’re focusing on the neighborhood).

            Which brings me back to the broader psychological point.

            It’s important to note that Pashtuns are also stereotyped as being a very dangerous and violent ethnicity. There’s this whole notion that “Pathans are crazy”. With this also comes a sense that Pashtuns are very masculine and rugged. The whole “they’re natural warriors”-type talk.

            In addition to that, Pashtuns (along with the people of Gilgit and Chitral) are also stereotyped as being “white”. Fair skin and chiseled facial features are the common stereotype. And as is the case with India, these characteristics are often associated with attractiveness in Pakistan.

            So, I’ve always felt that the “dumb and boy rapist” stereotype was a way for other Pakistanis to bring balance to their stereotypes. You know, a way to bring us down a notch.

            I guess one way to put it would be:

            “I mean yeah, sure, they’re tough and manly, and they epitomize our standards of attractiveness….

            BUT, but, they’re also dumb, and they prefer adolescent boys. So, there you go”.

            PS: I don’t take any stereotypes seriously, wiyh regards to anyone.

          5. @ Commentator

            “It’s important to note that Pashtuns are also stereotyped as being a very dangerous and violent ethnicity. There’s this whole notion that “Pathans are crazy”.”

            Well yes, we have seen them drive.

          6. @Commentator/Seinundzeit

            I think Pasthuns are unfairly targeted for pederasty, and yes it does seem to exist in Punjab (and even North India) but in my limited experience, the more west one goes towards Central Asia, the more common it seems to be. I don’t know the history behind it but this seems to be a very accepted practice in Afghanistan based on some documentaries I have seen.

            Pasthuns are also considered ”all brawn and little brain” by city people, such as Muhajirs and urban Punjabis, but this is quite normal because city dwellers worldwide have this notion of rural inhabitants as unintelligent, it’s not limited to Pakistan, you can see that in Europe or North America or India. Infact us giving credit to Pasthuns for the brawn part is a big deal because Pasthuns are seen as the hardest working ethnicity by everyone, most so by Muhajirs which is why so many Pashtuns flock to Karachi to find employment. You should see what (unfair) stereotypes are for Sindhis for example, lol..

            The other stereotypes that you are talking about such as being rugged, masculine and ‘warrior type’ are spread by Pasthuns themselves (and they also have a grain of truth to them). It is without doubt that Pasthuns are fiercly independent, and quite tribal in their approach and they are proud of it. They also do look down on other ethnicities of the subcontinent for being ‘docile’. In Karachi for example, before the 1980’s, both Pasthuns and Punjabis who were recent arrivals in the city, considered urbane Muhajirs as docile Hindustani ethnicities who could be easily suppressed via force, and tried to assert dominance in the city. However Muhajirs ended up forming MQM which became organized like an army and became extremely violent, and the Pasthuns were made to respect them.. Although the image of Muhajirs for being educated and cultured/ ”muhazzib”, took a big hit because of the violence, from which we never recovered.

            And yes, Pasthuns are definitely considered attractive, but then so are Kashmiris.. These stereotypes did not develop to bring them down a notch, these are simply a result of mixing mountain culture with city culture as I explained above.

        2. Really? In my own Pak Punjab Arain extended family and friends, I have frequently heard people say they don’t trust the Urdu-speaking i.e. Muhajirs. Conspiracy theories about Jews are rampant in Pak society and the most common insult is to tell someone they are ugly and kala. And if you are white\European, the bowing and scraping you can enjoy are off the charts.

          1. Pretty much every community/group has negative stereotypes for others.. I have heard

            – Punjabis are considered ‘paindu’, rural, hearty but unsophisticated and not in a good way

            – Sindhis are considered corrupt and lazy

            – Pashtuns are considered hardworking but very simple and dumb

            Muhajirs even have stereotypes amongst them selves

            – Biharis are considered impoverished, but very cunning and not to be trusted

            – Memons are considered extremely miserly

            etc etc

            These stereotypes occur due to limited exposure to other groups, may have some grain of truth to it but usually never true as a group. I am sure Punjabis have their own stereotype of Muhajirs, Sindhis and Pathuns too. This is normal.

            Yes ugly is an insult, so is kala an insult.. and nobody is denying that whiter skin is considered more attractive in Pakistan too.

          2. @Ali

            Pedastry part kind is a true stereotype. That “Shame of Pakistan” documentary was tough to watch. I am happy Imran Khan acknowledged it though

            It’s always interesting to speak Gujarati with Memon people. I have had Memon patients in the past, who I spoke with. Their Gujarati is quite close to Kathiawari Gujarati.

          3. What about Muslims from Indian side United Punjab ( Inc Haryana) who migrated post partition 1947 to your side? They didn’t settled in Karachi as far as I know. Most settled in Okara, Lahore, South Punjab as well. Groups like Qaimkhanis, Mola Jat, Ranghars etc were part of it.

          4. @Quereshi

            I mean in S Asia the more caucasoid and/or light skinned one is, the more attractive they tend to be perceived. Impression of Pashtuns and Kashmiris as attractive makes sense, when those are the metrics used for what constitutes attractive.

            I think S Asians generally though should learn to appreciate different types of beauty. I think this ideal has come from several layers and just being ruled over and run down by several people with these traits for a long time, starting with indo aryans themselves.

            Anyway, I am more annoyed at darker peoples for giving too much credit to lighter ones than for the latter for just loving themselves. People need to have some pride in their look.

            For example I am medium brown and proud

          5. @warlock

            You are right that part of the attractiveness of Pasthuns or Kashmiris come from fairer skin, but this is not the full story.. People whose ancestors lived in the mountains for centuries, are generally better physically. They are taller and fitter with generally better diet, when compared to plain dwellers, this is also true of most Pasthuns.. I have seen some of the most beautiful looking people with perfectly symmetrical faces, colored eyes, working in squalor in Karachi, almost all them Pasthuns from the tribal areas or Afghanistan, subsisting on a diet of just Naan and Onions and yet looking swole. That’s genetics you can’t buy.

          6. @S Qureishi

            “I have seen some of the most beautiful looking people with perfectly symmetrical faces, colored eyes, working in squalor in Karachi, almost all them Pasthuns from the tribal areas or Afghanistan, subsisting on a diet of just Naan and Onions and yet looking swole. That’s genetics you can’t buy”

            Thank goodness you wrote this, rather than myself; I can just imagine the responses, if I’d said something similar first.

            Coming from me, I know it’ll sound like some sort of puerile ethnic chauvinism… but it truly is just my sincere opinion, based on my own personal experiences: I do think that the Pashtuns of the tribal belt of Pakistan + the eastern highlands of Afghanistan are (by far) among the most attractive people I’ve ever seen. Despite living in abject poverty (and thus paying absolutely no attention to their physical appearance), I don’t think there’s a handsomer group of people to be encountered.

            The poorest of men (the types who literally do eat nothing but an onion and a naan, and give thanks to God for even that much of a meal) are often strong, tall, broad-shouldered, deep-chested. And all have chiseled jawlines (it’s almost an ethnic-specific trait), and one really is struck by the fact that the greater majority of individuals have very harmonious and symmetrical faces.

            And the girls…. where does one even start with the girls?

            ^ When I was 20, I broke up with my girlfriend (she’s a standard White American. Ask her about her ancestry, and she’ll give a long list consisting of “well, there’s some Scottish, Irish, Swedish, Czech, French, and some other odds and ends”, lol); we’d been together since we were 12! And it was a pretty intense relationship: at 15, we’d decided that we were going to be married one day. And we were very set… very serious about that happening.

            So when it all came to an end, it came to an end with quite a bang; it was unbearably ugly. The whole situation really messed me up. (After a few years, we reconnected. We almost got back together. But I thought it more prudent that we continue to see other people, and try our hands at a friendship… which pissed her off sufficiently enough to say that she never wanted to hear from me ever again, and prompted her to relegate all our photos to the flame. The latter was done right in front of me)

            My family couldn’t bear seeing me in a state of such absolute dejection.

            They all agreed that what I needed was a girl from the old country. So…. we have family in the tribal areas, and in the neighboring districts of Afghanistan. Arrangements were made with them, for the purposes of finding some families who’d be down with me meeting with their eligible daughters (naturally, under the complete and total supervision of said families). They had me take a break from school. (And made me take a ton of photos, to send out amongst the interested parties before I met them in person. Lmao)

            It was my third journey into the tribal areas… but it was my first stay there which was spent in the full light of my own sense and reason (and my first trip into Afganistan). Truly transformed my perspective on the world.

            But anyway, very long story short (well, a few very long stories short) I met 3 girls.

            And pardon the French, but they were just so absolutely f**king beautiful; I swear to God…. never before, and never since have I ever stared upon any countenances that were ever so gorgeously perfect! The rest of my life I’ve been on the lookout for girls like them (like even vaguely similar)… but it hasn’t happened.

            Getting to know them made me realize why 60% of Pashtun blood-feuds begin (and end) with a girl: if the 3 girls in question were typical, I don’t see any insanity in a willingness to kill (or die) for them.

          7. My impression generally is the Punjabi Jatts are taller than Pashtuns / Kashmiris on average.

            Is this incorrect ?

            (not including groups like Seraikis who seem to be quite a bit shorter based on ppl i have met)

          8. @Dathang

            Sure. Maybe started in IVC. Doesn’t matter. It was constantly perpetuated and is dumb as hell.

          9. Likely older than the ivc since the c in the ivc stands for civilization- the mature period. Probably older than early harappan as well. Maybe neolithic or mesolithic. Looking at the closest representation of ivc people we have for now- shahr ba, we see more aasi associated mtdna than ydna. So, sure the stereotype may not be vitriolic but it would be unlikely for a stereotype to not exist. Maybe aasi would be associated with the feminine and the Iran component with the masculine.

          10. I am not making any specific claims, so you don’t need to thank me for details. What I am saying is that the presence of stereotypes in south Asia is likely much older than what is commonly accepted. I think it goes back to the neolithic (~9000 years ago), or even earlier when the Iran type HGs contacted AASI HGs (maybe somewhat before the Holocene began).

          11. @Dathang

            No I appreciate the point. It actually strengthens the argument that the lower status of the east eurasian components of S Asian ancestry go back quite far. It will take a lot to reverse

          12. Doesn’t even need to be lower status. I am not sticking to any particular detail, just saying that stereotypes of any kind, even ones that do not entail what you have said likely go way back when different people made contact. Now if it does turn out to be a lower status thing then that would be something that happened, if it doesn’t turn out to be a lower status thing then it would be something that didn’t happen. Regardless, the range of stereotypes goes well beyond high and low status, which are simply small subsets in it.

            If you want more what ifs, then the stereotypes go way back but they evolve over time, for example; a hypothetical stereotype may not have been low status at first but it became so later on. Or the opposite is also possible. And hypothetical non-status stereotypes can evolve into other non-status stereotypes as well.

        3. I don’t get this term Muhajir. Which groups are included in it? Any idea about the groups like Qaimkhanis, Mola Jat, Ranghars etc from North West India. I suspect they settled in Pak Punjab not Karachi after 1947.

          1. The refugees from east Punjab assimilated in West Punjab, so they are still considered Punjabi. All other partition migrants/refugees who did not migrate from Punjab would call themselves Muhajirs, people from UP form the biggest portion, followed by people from Bihar, Deccan and Gujrat.

            To be frank, the newer generation does not use this term, they prefer ‘Urdu speaking’. It was mostly used by first and second generation Muhajirs..

    2. you cannot separate it from Khalistan. Canadian Sikh culture is hardcore khalistani influence. This causes way disproportionate alignment likely than would be normally seen.

      In UK, such “alignment” isn’t there.I have lived there before. I know. In central valley in cali, beyond a few hip hop collabs between “gangsta” wannabe crowd, I don’t see it. My girlfriend is Sikh from the Bay Area. I mean I don’t think there is much so called “natural alignment” for new gen in general beyond people just being friends because people want to be friends.

      This special type of natural alignment I think is heavily politically motivated Canadian phenomena. And I don’t even know of if it is as real as you people are claiming. I have not lived in GTA, so I am just taking your word. But the charged political atmosphere wifh people like Jimmy Singh elected, makes me realize the type of situation there.

      And there is tons of social pressure in Canadian Gurudwaraa there to be Khalistani. This now I know. My gf has family in Toronto. Many Gurudwaras there have Bhinderwale posters. Khalistanis have a super established prescence and preach cause constantly and harp all day long about India being some boogey man. They push their views hard, when it is clear they take money from the worst human rights abuser and killer of Sikhs post independence of the subcontinent.

      Free thought lol. Propaganda is a thing in all nations. And Khalistani prescense of it is loaded up in Canada, with attempts at Sikh indoctrination straightaway. Of course, it doesn’t actually work to even close magnitude you people are claiming, I am pretty sure. But I am sure it works enough to generate a crowd big enough to interact with enough GTA Pak Punjabjs to generate this odd “natural alliance” notions

      1. It’s probably relevant enough to note that Canadian Sikhs are a much larger fraction of the overall Canadian population than they are in the US/UK. They also have disproportionate political representation compared to their US/UK counterparts.

        In the UK, there is no “alignment” (if there was ever going to be) between UK Sikhs and Pakistanis because the majority of Pakistanis there are Mirpuris who have had historical tension with Sikhs for decades. It’s so bad that, in the past, the EDL and other far right British parties have tried to convince Sikhs to join their cause through Islamophobia. In California, not enough Sikhs and Pakistanis live in as close proximity as they do in the GTA where they can relate due to shared language/culture. .

        Social pressure to be Khalistani? Does your GF and her family have some Canadian Gurdwara political affiliation or something? Bhindrawale and other Sikh “shaheeds” are all over the San Jose Gurdwara too and I’ve never noticed any pressure to be pro Khalistan. We’re talking about the largest Gurdwara in all of North America.

        1. apparently Stockton Gurudwara and Fresno area one has some quite pro khalistan sentiments with a big march that took place where Gandhi photos and Indian flag were burned and stuff. But that’s cali. People there have mixed sentiment. And some were quite disappointed with that behavior.

          She has maternal cousins who live in GTA. And there sentiment is way stronger especially with all of the NDP type activism coupled with it.

          In the end all of separatist funding needs to stop. If India is funding balochistanis, they need to stop. These borderlines need to be declared and final and people have to move on. The draconian Kashmir measures have to end but so do the terrorist activities. Pak funding Khalistan and China funding naxalites needs to stop.

          1. Perhaps, the Central Valley Gurdwaras (from Sacramento all the way down to Stockton, Modesto, Fresno, etc.) are louder than Bay Area ones but I believe they all more or less share the same sentiments as Canadian ones.

            http://indiafacts.org/how-california-gurudwaras-have-cemented-hindu-sikh-divide-created-by-the-british/

            You may be right that US Sikhs have more mixed sentiments on average but I don’t think they’re that different in the grand scheme of things.

            I think it’s possible to contribute the more passionate sentiment of GTA Sikhs to more political representation and influence in Canada vs. the US or UK. Jagmeet Singh’s rise to the head of the NDP multiplies that even further.

        2. @Paindu

          One thing that saddens me a bit is that in India in Punjab, per my girlfriend, and in New Delhi, per my father who grew up there, Punjabi Sikhs and Hindus both go to Gurudwaras and Hindu Temples, just at the different expected frequencies. I think the distinction becomes sharper in N America and the UK, so some of the syncretism stops. I know Guru Nanak is revered among Pak Muslims and some historically also went occasionally to Gurudwaras. But ones I meet in the US tend to be a lot more into Mosque only culture.

          I also get why Sikhs are apprehensive about their identity being completely consumed by the RSS type dogma of declaring all dharmics as Hindus. Jains felt that way before but most just don’t fight it because there are too few of them and it just isn’t worth it, better to just work within the system and keep acquiring wealth into the niche. Sikhs aren’t close to that point, so I can see how the identity plays a stronger role. Also Sikhs were under constant threat of persecution, since their inception, as you know far better than I do, so I can see why they are anxious right now about having their uniqueness absorbed into the growing critical mass of Hindutuva.

          I am also unsure why Binderwalla is revered so much. Wasn’t there prostitution going inside of Golden Temple and storage of arms? Didn’t he go to the highest level, something only reserved for Il Omkar? Like I can see him as a figure for Punjabi religious and ethnonationalism to some extent. But he did violate Sikh conduct in some critical ways it seems.

          1. @thewarlock
            There is probably much more consistent cultural exchange in India between Sikhs and Hindus. Especially, Punjabi Hindus with Khatris being at the forefront of this.

            That would explain the distinction and hence the discontinuity in N America/UK vs. the syncretism you see in India. However, based on conversations with a friend who still has immediate family in India, it seems there is more amalgamation and symmetry between Hindus and Sikhs in urban India/Punjab vs. rural Punjab where most Sikhs live. For example, one might see more reverence for Hindu gods and customs by some Sikhs in urban Jalandhar vs. a rural pind.

            I don’t think there is any significant religious exchange (if any) between Pak Punjabis and Sikhs in the West. It’s primarily linguistic and cultural and only observable in a few diaspora regions (such as the GTA).

            The issue isn’t just RSS dogma regarding Dharmic religions all being subsets of Hinduism but even the simple fact that India doesn’t even recognize Sikhs and other “dharmic” groups as distinct to Hindus in the constitution. There shouldn’t have to be any interpretation. Many diaspora Sikhs find that offensive. Coupled with the growing mass of Hinduvta as you noted, that’s going to leave a sour taste in their mouths.

            As for Bhindranwale, he certainly wasn’t a saint but there are a lot of misconceptions and downright lies about him. Case in point, there is no concrete evidence of prostitution going inside the Golden Temple. That is government (Congress) propaganda.

            There was definitely storage of arms/weapons by Bhindranwale and his men but Sikhism is a religion founded in the face of violent persecution and its teachings and values support self defense the taking up of arms if necessary. That’s how many Sikhs perceive his turning the Golden Temple into an armed compound. He is seen as a martyr among Sikhs. In a similar vein to how people perceive Bhagat Singh as a martyr against the British.

            Anyways, most reverence for Bhindranwale is probably a mix of romanticism and Punjabi religious/ethno nationalist pride not seen since the Sikh empire. Sikh Punjabis tend to be a very prideful people. Bhindranwale bumper stickers can be found to this day from rural Punjab to even Delhi among Sikh Khatris. I’ve said it before but Sikhism and Punjabiyat are heavily intertwined.

      2. I have been part of several different friend circles in the GTA (work, high school, university, cricket) and I find that amongst Pakistani friend circles that comprise of Sindhi/Muhajir/Punjabi, the only Indians that ever are part of it are Sikhs, (and to a lesser extent some Hindustani Muslims). Not the Turban wearing Sikhs, but the non-Turban ones. They blend right in with Pakistanis who are less inclined religiously. This has very little to do with them being Khalistani or not. Recently I just dealt with a business group which had one Sikh and 2 Muslim partners, all in their early 30s. I don’t think Khalistan had anything to do with these Sikh individuals.

        Sikhs observing turban in Canada are more conservative in their dealings with Muslims in my experience, and if they happen to support Pakistan, they are more likely to be Khalistanis.

        1. What you posted shows Indian Hindus / Jains / Christians are a part of Pakistani circles compared to Sikhs and Indian Muslims.

          Which makes sense, but you need to compare with how integrated Sikhs and NW Indian Hindus are.

          Starting a business together is entirely unremarkable, intermarriage is not uncommon, and my Sindhi Hindu friends family goes to the local gurudwara.

          1. I am sure many Sikhs are aligned with Hindus in the NW as well, this is why I inserted the religious/less religious dynamic. Diet is big part of how a group gels together in the diaspora, and more observant Sikhs following vegetarian diet might find more commonality with NW Hindus. The less observant Sikhs who eat beef gel much better with less observant Pakistan Muslims who don’t mind drinking. Pretty much every Sikh I know (save a couple), all of them eat beef. I had some Hindu Punjabi friends who were completely vegetarian, so it was hard to hang out much.

    3. Most Sikhs align with Pakistani Punjabis naturally, you can just see it in the Canadian diaspora.

      Can you give examples, this is simply not true from what I have seen.

      They may not be as into the Indian identity as Hindus. But they sure as hell don’t identify as pakistanis.

      Socially as well they are way more integrated with Punjabi Hindus than with Punjabi Muslims.

      1. I did not say they identify as Pakistanis..I said they align and fit in with Pakistani social groups better than Hindu Indian ones (see my other comment on examples). Perhaps the religious Sikhs from India align more with Hindus.. but less observant Sikhs in Canada at least are almost indistinguishable from less observant Muslim Punjabis.

        1. Yea they are literally the same ethnic group that was split up based on religion no too long ago. So take away religion and many of the differences disappear.

          My point is Hindu Punjabis and Sikh Punjabis seem more integrated than Muslim Punjabis and Sikh Punjabis in the diaspora.

          You mentioned marriage as the ultimate litmus test in another comment. So just apply that here.

          1. A lot of diversity from around the globe, good food, low crime, generally safe, no real ghettos.. several major universities attracting international students…

            Some areas have become overwhelmed with one group, Brampton with Indians and Markham with Chinese mainly.. but these are still thriving areas.

            Property prices seem to be aiming for the moon and have made a lot of people very rich, including a lot of immigrants. Apart from owning property, its not particularly an expensive place to live.

  33. @Razib Khan
    https://ibb.co/FJRmP53
    I found this map of western eurasian dna distribution in my photos and I wanted to ask if you think it’s accurate. Also it shows a large, some-what tear drop shaped, region in central UP (I think) which has higher western eurasian dna than it’s surroundings, do you have any information about that

  34. Spending less time on BP of late. Not seen Kabir in a while. Is he okay?

    Good to learn that Open Threads are as entertaining and as meaningless as always.

    Hopefully someday soon we’ll be able to figure out whether Sikhs are actually ultra-patriotic Indians or Pak aligning Khalistanis.

    Most of the discussion here doesn’t seem to pass the smell test for anyone who lives in India.

    Ironically, I think the only person here who’s trying to understand India on its own terms is principia. Most diaspora folks seem to be shoe-horning nerdy genetics or western socio-economic theories.

    #HarHarMacron
    #LongLiveMacron

    1. There’s a Brazilian footballer called Casemiro who plays for Real Madrid. You can google his images.

      He looks exactly like what a median Jat looks like.

  35. “Any reason why Jats are not found after Western U P ?” — @RS, the spread of brahmins across india is an exception and this exception should not be treated as the norm. Brahmins were given land grants and made to settle by the various ruling authorities .
    If you notice then you will find that most castes(especially farming castes) are confined to their own certain areas, it’s not just jats but also the Kacchis, Kurmis, patidars, khandayats, mahisyas, vokkaliggas/gowdas , kapus etc who are concentrated in their specific areas.
    The land east of Awadh already had its own peasant/farming castes and had high population density compared to the rest so it’s not easy to barge there and capture the fertile lands from an already settled pop who are not technologically inferior without the help of ruling authorities.

    1. Fine brahmins went there, but banias are also in many states and spread out. Similarly, In North your point is not true, yes from jammu till Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan to bihar, most ruling clans were rajputs.

      “had high population density compared to the rest so it’s not easy to barge there and capture the fertile lands from an already settled pop who are not technologically inferior without the help of ruling authorities.”
      So this might not be true as these communities didn’t rule in these areas.

    2. FYI as per Brit records migration land east of Awadh has happened. Many brahmins moved, similarly banias also moved from one areas. Yes after 1400s, as per Brits records I found that various clans of rajput community like Ujjainiya Parmar, Naraunis, Bachgotis chauhans settled there forcing the local groups eastwards. I guess any member of that community can clear this out as well. So, yes movement of people did happened there. So, I don’t this reason for Jats to be not present beyond West UO

      1. “FYI as per Brit records migration land east of Awadh has happened.” — i just wrote about rajput migration to bihar and so did you.When i said about land east of awadh having its own peasant castes , i didn’t mean to say that migation to lands east of awadh was impossible lol. That was meant only to be a deterrant against *massive* migration of a ‘non-elite’ peasant caste like jats who would have found it very difficult to displace the local rural farming castes without some kind of alliance or support .
        Banias migration is not similar imo, because they are mostly concentrated in urban/trade areas as opposed to rural farming castes.

        1. “That was meant only to be a deterrant against *massive* migration of a ‘non-elite’ peasant caste like jats who would have found it very difficult to displace the local rural”

          In West UP they did, as many of them seem to have said that they have migrated from north western regions at some point of time. So I find it surprising that this didn’t happened beyond West UP. The only reason from my side is it could be is a case of them being a newly later immigrants to West UP itself.

  36. “Brahmins were given land grants and made to settle by the various ruling authorities .”
    Who were the ruling authorities as per you in northern states?

  37. “Fine brahmins went there, but banias are also in many states and spread out. ” — Correct me if i am wrong here but isn’t migration of some of the bania castes to the east especially the marwaris banias is more recent i.e medieval and during british era and they are mostly concentrated in urban areas as opposed to farming castes who are more rural.
    Afaik, bania is a term used for many different trading castes.

    “Not only Brahmins, Banias also spread
    and are many others.” — I hope you are NOT claiming that just because artisan castes like vishwakarma or castes defined purely by their occupation like dhobis are found all across india, it means that they migrated from a single point to all across india 🙂 .

    As far as rajputs migration to bihar is concerned, isn’t it claimed that a great chunk of them migrated during medieval era to bihar and displaced the chero tribal chieftains ? Some were also granted zamindari by the mughals .

    “Who were the ruling authorities as per you in northern states?” —- I don’t think these ruling authorities were rajputs in eastern bihar, bengal. Not an expert in history as some of the readers here but I highly doubt that rajputs were present in present day bihar before the medieval period.

    1. “Who were the ruling authorities as per you in northern states?” —- I don’t think these ruling authorities were rajputs in eastern bihar, bengal. Not an expert in history as some of the readers here but I highly doubt that rajputs were present in present day bihar before the medieval period”
      Not all have migrated from West. There were rajput samants of Raja Jaichand as well, these were joined by later ones. Also Ujjainiya Parmars who migrated from Malwa ( Ujjain) fought many battles against Jaunpur Sultanate in 1390s. Do find it out, it is interesting part of history. These were before 1500s.
      Also UP had Bais clan in and around Kannauj belt since Raja Harshvardhana days. Similarly many clans were samants of Jaichand so were in that belt for long time.
      I agree on Bengal though. That is why I said “till Bihar” in the east in my first post.

    2. “Some were also granted zamindari by the mughals ”
      Ujjainiya Parmars of Bhojpur, Bihar did fought Jaunpur Sultanate in 1390s much before Mughals came.
      Another one I found is Gandharviyas clan of Sonbarsa Raj, which seems a little older than even Ujjainiya Parmars. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaunpur-Bhojpur_War I don’t consider wiki as reliable because of constant editing but here I had to share this with you.

  38. Googling the Haryanvi “Ror” caste. (I had never heard of before I found out they are the whitest / most Steppe shifted caste in India via the “Jatt Wars” comment thread on this blog)

    Seems a lot of them call themselves “Maratha Ror”. Any idea what’s going on there ?
    Not a genetic connection I am guessing.

    1. now disproven theory that they were maratha soldier descendants. No one knew where they came from. So that was floated for awhile.

      1. Also based on YouTube videos the Rors are quite a bit more Indic / brown looking than I thought.

        And yet genetically they are more West Eurasian than other the Biradari / caste groups in India or from what I read even some Pashtun groups (?)

        Something isn’t adding up here. It is really strange.

        A few possible explanations:
        1. Maybe these guys are tanned from working the fields.
        2. Maybe these are all fake / admixed Rors?
        3. Maybe regular South Asians are actually even darker and these guys are light in comparison?
        4. The genetic sampling is off somehow?

        I think it’s primarily a case of regular south Asians being even darker and more AASI looking*. And secondarily deep tans for Rors from working outside in the Indian sun.

        *A deep seated dislike of dark skin in the beauty standard and constant association of lighter skin with social status mean South Asians to tend to use pics and lighting that makes their own group look more “fair and lovely”. (I have noticed this tendency with all groups in south Asia) YouTube videos of the groups are a better representation than photographs of individuals.

        1. Phenotype doesn’t correlate to genotype perfectly because relatively few loci determine prior; hence, it is more skewable with selection.
          Therefore, if sexual selection trends favor a trait, it can increase a whole lot without changing genotype much. Darker skin and more AASI features may have been more attractive for those people at some point and now those are disproportionate relative to the rest of genome in AASI. Same could happen with steppe and Kashmiris who tend to be more AASI than some birdari groups but streotypes as lighter.
          Razib also goes into evidence of influx of aasi people into NW at some point and into the genomes there, thus changing the averages of the people to be a bit more aasi.

          He can perhaps add more.

          Like I have argued constantly with apthk on here, his views on pure west eurasian average looks are simply not true. Yes a greater promotion pass as full West Eurasian but most still look indic (some east-west eurasian mix). Same with say N indian Brahmins but an even small percent pass as full west eurasians.

          1. Oh yea maybe it’s sort of reverse of the chitpavan situation.

            Ie Brown Indic looking but very European shifted genetics

            Imo Jatts and even some other higher AASI biradaris are more west Asian looking overall compared to Rors based on videos. Even though genetically the opposite is the case.

          2. “I think it’s primarily a case of regular south Asians being even darker and more AASI looking*. And secondarily deep tans for Rors from working outside in the Indian sun.”
            Lol, Rors look very ordinary. I live in Delhi NCR, have been to Panipat-Karnal where they are concentrated. And it is very small group of 5 lakh people with clans overlapping with bigger groups. The people you are looking for light skin guys you might get only in JK or upper HP.

          3. @thewarlock

            It might not be so simple.

            Despite not showing any detectable AASI admixture, there are many western Iranians out there who look surprisingly Indian.

            And countless Iranian Bandaris look like South Indians (like straight up Tamil Nairs), but with a vague Near Eastern vibe! That’s despite having only 5% AASI admixture.

            To be blunt, the truth is that any West Eurasian with dark skin will look Indian.

            Which is why there are Indian-looking people throughout the Near East (even a few Samaritans in Israel look kinda like Punjabis). So, considering that the Hindu Jats are only around 15% AASI, it’s a safe bet that the vast majority of these people will simply look West Eurasian.

            And I would note that the Hindu Jats really do have very European-shifted genetics; they are among the most Central_Steppe_MLBA-admixed populations in all of Asia! Only the Pamiri Iranians can match or exceed them (those populations are more around 45%-50%).

            And honestly, although I haven’t seen a Hindu Jat even once in my life, I think it’s likely that Apthk and his family are typical. It’s just that they aren’t old tanned rural farmers.

            The people in the online pics have clearly been bronzed to a crisp. By contrast, Apthk doesn’t seem like a chap who spends much time in the fields. And one can’t underestimate the affect of tanning upon the perception of a person’s ethnic affinities.

            ^ Speaking of myself, without a tan I can pass rather smoothly among Chechens. And uninformed people have asked me if I’m “Serbian”.

            With a tan though, uninformed people code me rather readily as an “Arab”. And I do look pretty different even to myself, merely because of my darkened pigmentation. So, it’s possible that if Jats weren’t a rural people, they’d be a lot pastier, and people wouldn’t think that they looked very “Indic”.

            Regardless, I’m not a Jat, so unlike Apthk I’m not trying to “push” a narrative; just trying to be factual. And I do disagree with the notion that Jats look more similar to Persians (or even to Pashtuns) than they do to North Indian Brahmins. That’s patently nonsensical, so I do agree with you on that.

          4. It isn’t just skin tone. They look visibly S Asian. N Indian Brahmins generally all look visibly S Asian. I can easily spot who is Indian and who is not,even in a N Indian Brahmin crowd. I don’t think you have enough familiarity with the subtle facial feature differences that give these cues.
            Apthk is actually well within the diversity of Rors but on the more West Eurasian looking side of the spectrum.
            I gave a paradigm on another set of posts with specific percents based on my personal experience, if you want to take a look. It isn’t just climate. These Rors don’t look like Pashtuns. Pashtuns who hang out in the sun and get dark still don’t have indic features. These men look visibly indic. You have to remember the “indian look” isn’t just AASI. It is a mix of AASI+iranic mesolithic HG related ancestry (what formed the IVC on a cline).

            It is the combination of these two that give the indic look. And Rors, despite being up to 40% steppe on some models, are still 60% that combination. That is why they look more like N Indian upper castes than West Asians. That is why they look noticeably Indian.

            Now West vs. E Eurasian part. You make an interesting point. Maybe they do look like some variation of mostly W Eurasian looking people. Maybe without the 15% AASI, they would generally also look like that. It is possible because it could the iranic part of the IVC ancestry that gives the indic look. Because that aspect isn’t really even present to a high degree in modern day Iranians. Granted, Baloch generally don’t look like them and have a degree of it and hang in the sun quite a bit 2/2 to living in a desert. So even that I am doubtful.

            The AASI does have a meaningful impact on their features. This is at least my own analysis.

            And yes, thanks again for admitting they look more like N Indian upper caste people. That was my entire point several times over. Even a N Indian warrior or business caste is like 30-35% AASI, 15-20% steppe, and the rest iranic mesolithic HG related (iranic part of IVC). They are what, like 20% extra AASI instead of steppe. So yes there is a difference. It is like the average African American vs. the average West African. And the difference between N Indian Brahmins and the Rors is even less. And the Rors are the MOST shifted. So yes, as much as they want to argue, they still look closer to their nearby Indian groups than anyone else.

            The West vs. E Eurasian point is interesting, and I think more open to debate on phenotype. But I think I have discussed my argument sufficiently above.

            The number of W Iranians who look Indian is quite low, at least from the Iranians I know and youtube vidoes of them I have seen. I mean they exist I am sure but it doesn’t seem so prominent. There are enough differences for me to nearly always tell, barring a few rare exceptions.

          5. @comment
            The other point one can made that the average West African does not look like the average African American (85% black and 15% white). In the same vein, the average Ror is about 85% similar to most West Eurasians w/ some of that 85% actually being components that are common within S Asia and not so common outside of it, except for E Iranians.
            15% isn’t negligible.

            Some estimate it as high as 17%. Razib has also stated that he feels steppe is overestimated in models. So we may be looking at even less steppe than we are originally thinking. Just some more thoughts

            Any I don’t think any W Eurasian with dark skin could look Indian. Even most W Asians with dark skin wouldn’t look Indian. The features are pretty different. A small minority of Iranians probably can, but it isn’t a big number. And they tend to have that bit of AASI.

          6. @thewarlock

            “Maybe they do look like some variation of mostly W Eurasian looking people. Maybe without the 15% AASI, they would generally also look like that. It is possible because it could the iranic part of the IVC ancestry that gives the indic look.”

            You’ve summed it up perfectly; this is essentially what I’m saying.

            “The other point one can made that the average West African does not look like the average African American (85% black and 15% white).”

            Concerning African Americans, I don’t think it’s possible to say anything along these lines. I mean, there are African Americans out there with only 5% European admixture; and at the same time, there are African Americans out there who are mainly European (like 65% European, 35% African)!

            Wouldn’t really make much sense to pin an average for such a heterogeneous population. But if we did attempt an average, it’s probably more along the lines of 25% European, 75% African. So with respect to majority ancestry-minority ancestry, UP Brahmins would be a better South Asian equivalent (75%-70% West Eurasian, 25%-30% AASI).

            But again, African Americans are much too diverse a population to use in such analogies.

            Regardless, since we’re talking majority West Eurasian, a better bad example might be White Argentines (still a bad example, considering heterogeneity). They rather emphatically identify as “White” people, and the vast majority of those who identify as such look like regular Iberians or Italians. Yet, most of them have 10%-20% Native American + African admixture (and some are even 35% Native American + African).

            “Razib has also stated that he feels steppe is overestimated in models. So we may be looking at even less steppe than we are originally thinking.”

            Distal sources give like 70% Eurasian steppe (and that’s clearly not right). 40% is a pretty stable result, and unlikely to be overestimated when considering that the source populations are relevant to South Asia (Central_Steppe_MLBA and Indus_perhiphery, rather than Steppe_MLBA, Iran_N, and Onge).

            “Even most W Asians with dark skin wouldn’t look Indian… A small minority of Iranians probably can, but it isn’t a big number. And they tend to have that bit of AASI.”

            One would be surprised. IRL it’s been very interesting to see western Persians who look vaguely South Asian. They’re a certainly a minority, but they definitely exist, despite no AASI.

            And the Iranian Bandaris are only around 5% AASI, so I think we’d agree that this is very unlikely to be the reason for their unique phenotype.

            Rather, the Iranian Bandaris have tons of Iran_N, and almost no Eurasian steppe. As a result, some of them look kinda South Indian. They’re a fascinating population.

            Off-topic, but the Soqotri are another group of interest. Based on genetic analyses, they have no detectable African admixture. Yet, they’re very, very dark (they look like Ethiopians with straight hair, or like South Indians with thin faces and noses). It seems they genetically resemble the Natufians.

            ^ So I guess many Paleolithic and Mesolithic Near Easterners would’ve had rather interesting phenotypes.

          7. @comment
            It is 85:15 on most analyses of AA. I have to look for source again but that is average for ancestry data. I just disagree AASI has no influence. 15% isn’t minor. Also, again it could be underestimate given likely steppe overestimate. Also, the IPE individuals in Reich for example average 25% AASI. And many of these Rors look not so far off from people who are 30-35% AASI. Like could you really tell the caste of those men by looking at those pics beyond they look Northern S Asian. I highly doubt it. Again I disagree on Iranians, they tend to hardly ever look S Asian to me. Maybe “vaguely” on off occasion. But generally no. Whereas these Rors look clearly S Asian.

            Look into matrimonial site pics. Many rich ones with light skin. Look at Haryana Jat pics on those sites too as they cluster closer. I have posted the links. They do not look full west West Eurasian to me. I can see AASI influence.

            https://www.hindimatrimony.com/haryana-jat-brides

            https://www.bharatmatrimony.com/hindi/haryana-jat-officer-grooms

          8. @Sein

            Roughly the approximate phenotype model I perceive (posted before)

            Let’s say there is a phenotype scale. 0 is W Eurasian. 100 is east Eurasian.

            Persians will be say range from 0-25.

            Haryana Jats can range from 20-50.

            Sikh Jats 25-55

            N Indian Brahmins range from 30-60.

            Rajputs 35-70.

            Vaishya 40-75.

            Now you see how Jats can be the most West shifted yet still share more overlap with Northern non birdari upper caste S Asians than with Persians.

          9. @sein

            As stated by a few with personal experience, Rors are so brown that there was a myths circulating amongst themselves that they are descended from maratha soldiers. groups that look more West Eurasian like chitpavans or especially like Kalash have more myths about descent from Alexander’s army or ship wrecked Turkish trades etc. I think there was some sexual selection for more aasi look at some point for this to occur like there was for steppe for some groups.

        2. I mean the key fact remains that the vast majority of all ethnic groups within S Asia look indic, barring some isolated groups in KPK

          Reverse chitpavan is correct. I would say West Eurasian instead of European. West Asians are just as West Eurasian as Europeans typically and Europeans have things like WHG that make them distinct from the EHG steppe peoples

          Steppe is just a component for them like it is for us. They frankly don’t have magical ownership.

          Steppe hordes ran over their mesolithic farmers too. But those farmers happened to be less distant genetically than those hordes compared to India’s case. AASI is really what makes our genotypic and phenotypic cline so vast

          1. Reverse chitpavan is correct. I would say West Eurasian instead of European. West Asians are just as West Eurasian as Europeans typically and Europeans have things like WHG that make them distinct from the EHG steppe peoples

            you make an interesting point.

            even paleolithic europeans after 15,000 BC seem to have some east eurasian ancestry. so who is the most west eurasian at all? the wild card is basal eurasian. which is beyond west or east eurasian.

            that being said, lots of admixture in west asia from steppeish+african+turk. so things have changed. the ‘purest’ ‘west eurasian’ west asian type imo might be some people in sardinia, who have been more isolated than usual from later events.

        3. @Sumit
          Rors can be 1.5-7% or so more West Eurasian than some Punjabi biradari groups and almost on par with some Northern Pashtun groups.

          The issue here is phenotype often doesn’t correlate with genotype in South Asia. As warlock noted, very few loci are involved to determine it and sexual selection can cause it to change (ie. Kashmiris).

          However, another observation is that Ror and related groups don’t seem to model as well in G25 with IVC groups. They prefer a much more AASI rich group such as SSo (Saidu Sharif outlier) or a modern such as Chamar. So, it may be the case of a super Steppe shifted group (paternally) mixing with a “Chamar like” population (maternally) and little mixing afterwards whereas other NW biradari groups have substantially more IVC like mix. So, despite a bit more AASI in those groups, they are often actually lighter.

          A study on Ror mt-DNA would be very useful in this regard.

          1. @paindu Which NW group you found lighter? In India except JK and Upper HP. I don’t see anybody as much difference of color, this even if I include East of Indus of Pk. In Pak belt only NWFP people whose communities overlap with Afg can have different looks.

          2. @RS
            In general, I think most Punjabi biradaris are lighter on average than Rors and related groups. However, examples would be Punjabi Khatris and Jatt Sikhs. I don’t think they’re world’s apart but you would find more light types among them. Others may disagree but that is my opinion.

            Jammu people (Dogra Rajputs and Brahmins) aren’t really too different to Punjabis in looks. Maybe a tad lighter. Himachalis can have lighter types too (Kashmiri shifted look) but this is probably related to climate/altitude adoption and sexual selection. However, genetically, they seem to be similar to Kashmiris or Jammu Dogras with a more eastern shift. I’ve seen the results of a Himachali Brahmin and Rajput.

          3. @Paindu I agree with you on Rors . That’s why I didn’t quote them. They were just a 5-6 lakh groups, probably equivalent to numbers of 1-2 clan of bigger social group like yours..
            “In general, I think most Punjabi biradaris are lighter on average than Rors and related groups. However, examples would be Punjabi Khatris and Jatt Sikhs. I don’t think they’re world’s apart but you would find more light types among them. Others may disagree but that is my opinion.”

            Agree with you on Jatt Sikh and Punjabi Khatri being stand out. Though I think both also wary a lot within a family itself. Example : difference of Sukhbir Badal (Dhillon) with his cousins Manpreet.
            Similarly Pak Punjabi also have many Fawad Chaudhry kind of people. Even Qamar Javed Bajwa is decent but can be boxed into more number of groups.

          4. @RS
            When I say Ror and related groups, I’m including the numerous Jaats. Anyways, we’re on the same page. Jatt Sikhs and Punjabi Khatris have plenty of typical NI looking types as well. The same with Pak Punjabis (Arains, Gujjars, Jatts, Rajputs, etc.).

          5. “When I say Ror and related groups, I’m including the numerous Jaats. Anyways, we’re on the same page. Jatt Sikhs and Punjabi Khatris have plenty of typical NI looking types as well. The same with Pak Punjabis (Arains, Gujjars, Jatts, Rajputs, etc.).”
            Agree with you except on Arain. Zia ul Haq looked very normal. You could have added Awans instead of Arain. I also think South Punjab Pak ( Seraiki) vary more & might be similar to Haryana & near by bordering region of North Rajasthan.

    2. No genetic connection. Some of the community believe they are descendants of Maratha warriors who fought the Panipath wars.

      Genetic studies have shown otherwise

      1. This was a political claim by Rors which they made just 15 yrs ago in 2000s. So, it was definitely fake. They did not claim any Maratha connection before that or in 1880s, when chances of it could have been true.
        This was nothing but same habit shown by peasants group today of trying to connect something from history with obnoxious claims

    3. Whitest? I live in Delhi NCR and have met some Rors of Panipat. They look no special at all as compared to others. It is small group of 5-6 lakh people. Even in Armed forces they are near to zero. I don’t know what the fuss is all about.

  39. “Also UP had Bais clan in and around Kannauj belt since Raja Harshvardhana days” —- @RS, bhai, presence of these different ruling clans who now come under the rajput fold , makes it seem as if the same caste with a single origin has been present all across north india !!

    “Also Ujjainiya Parmars who migrated from Malwa ( Ujjain) fought many battles against Jaunpur Sultanate in 1390s. ” — These ujjainya seem to be fighting everyone, from jaunpur sultanates to the chero tribal cheiftains of bihar and north jharkhand.

    “In West UP they did, as many of them seem to have said that they have migrated from north western regions at some point of time.” —- Whom did the jats displace ?
    From what i know, the ujjainiya displacement of cheros was quite tough and skirmishes between them continued for a long time, won’t be surprised if the ujjainiyas got outside support !

    1. Whom did the jats displace ?
      Bro Most of Haryana was not that much populated before 1780s, it was camping ground for militaries, it all started with migration from North Rajasthan to Haryana. Just Google the Bagar or Bagri territory. Similarly West UP and Haryana was badly disrupted after 1200s. A lot of villages were emptied of people, new settlements happened.

      “presence of these different ruling clans who now come under the rajput fold , makes it seem as if the same caste with a single origin has been present all across north india !!”
      FYI any community/social groups having clans are based on their clan bkgd. It is the clan identity that is more important.

      “Were the Bais ‘kshatriya’ considered part of the UP thakur fold till a few generations ago ? Some folks tell me that were not.”
      Lol Bais are one of the most important clan of Rajputs. Google Baiswara belt. And for thakur it is title of that community like some use Chaudhary.

      1. @RS,

        “Similarly West UP and Haryana was badly disrupted after 1200s. A lot of villages were emptied of people, new settlements happened.” — So, as per what you are saying they were basically populating empty villages and clearing forests/bushes and they hardly faced any competition from existing groups.

        “Don’t you know that whole belt of Jammu to Narmada (MP) and from Raj to Bihar are not difficult to navigate. Also brahmins are present all over India. ”
        — Moving from one place to another and en masse migration and settlement are two different things.
        As far as brahmins are considered, i have written that their migrations were of very different kind, brahmins literally got things handed to them as they were coveted by kings for their knowledge and were provided with all sorts of bare minimum stuff like land, cows for their settlements with local peasants who
        would work for them , Who would have done the same for jats lol !

        “FYI any community/social groups having clans are based on their clan bkgd. It is the clan identity that is more important.” — I didn’t get this, perhaps both of us need to work on improving our english 🙂 .

        “Lol Bais are one of the most important clan of Rajputs. And for thakur it is title of that community like some use Chaudhary.” — Since thakur in UP is almost synonymous with rajputs/kshatriyas , my use of “UP thakur” implied rajputs/kshatriyas of UP. A friend on mine says that the bais primarily came from Ahirs and others but he might be wrong .

    2. Don’t you know that whole belt of Jammu to Narmada (MP) and from Raj to Bihar are not difficult to navigate. Also brahmins are present all over India. So, I don’t think a community which has horses for better movement etc would find it difficult to move from one place to another.

  40. “Also UP had Bais clan in and around Kannauj belt since Raja Harshvardhana days” — RS, I have a question. Were the Bais ‘kshatriya’ considered part of the UP thakur fold till a few generations ago ? Some folks tell me that were not.

  41. I already mentioned before – the taxonomy is so corrupted and often meaningless. The term “Indo-European” after 100 of years replaced the term ‘Indo-Germanishe’ and initially assumed the name of the group of languages. After that was expanded and we got ‘Indo-European’ (!?) people. All this does not make sense. One estimate is that from pra-language evolved the Language (for the sake of story let’s call it – Serbian) about 6000 years before Sanskrit. What was ‘Indo’ at that time? The terms Europe, Asia, Indo, Iran did not exist at that time. Why use these terms for the much earlier situation.

    The term ‘Indo-Iranian’ is also meaningless. This, so-called ‘II’ language(s) is younger than Sanskrit but some assert that was spoken in today’s Ukraine and Russia several 000 of years before Sanskrit. The term ‘steppe’ also does not mean anything. What genetics they had, which language they spoke, which mythology they had? By mentioning ‘steppe’ SAsian people actually push their heads in the sand, not wanting to know who actually came to SA and what they brought with them (maybe because of this we cannot know what does it mean RG in Rg Veda; verses? give me a break!).

    When we say Sardinia, what we think? I2 as the key haplogroup? The haplogroup of the ‘beautiful human group’ from the ‘east of Adriatic Sea’ which populated British Isles (and the west coast of Scandinavia) 5500 BC and lived there for 3000 years before Yamnaya people came? Chuck Norris? Novak Djokovic?

    It would be much more interesting, challenging and relevant to SA history to find out when harry met sally, i.e. when I2a met R1a and created a ‘marvellous race’ (TGH, 2020).

  42. “These ujjainya seem to be fighting everyone, from jaunpur sultanates to the chero tribal cheiftains of bihar and north jharkhand.”
    I guess they were warring groups, so that was their job lol. They fought British as well. If you would read the fact is one of the best challenge to British in 1857 was given by Kunwar Singh of Jagdishpur of the same clan.

    1. “They fought British as well.” — @RS, They served them too, if i am not wrong, they along with bhumihars, formed the bulk of the purbaiyya sepoys for the East India company.

      “And most of them live in Haryana probably one of the best high income state in India
      So, farming logic doesn’t hold special only for them. ” — So,does being from one of the high income states of india restricts an agrarian community from working out in the fields ? Aren’t most of them still in agriculture ?

      1. “They served them too, if i am not wrong, they along with bhumihars, formed the bulk of the purbaiyya sepoys for the East India company.”
        They fought them as well, probably the best challenge to brits was given by one of their ruler. So, it is two way traffic.

        “So,does being from one of the high income states of india restricts an agrarian community from working out in the fields ? Aren’t most of them still in agriculture ?”
        Well I am not sure if you have lived in that state, but nowadays working in farm are mostly done by non-landed groups ( from SC segment) for a landed group. Haryana area is rich state and there farmers hire many labour force.
        And the photo I shared is not even of a farmer. The point is had they been any special, this would have known in armed forces.

  43. “They fought them as well, probably the best challenge to brits was given by one of their ruler. So, it is two way traffic.” — ‘best challenge to brits’ sounds like an another mythical tale of rajput bravery.

    1. Google Kunwar Singh, read about him from British sources. FYI I don’t belong to his clan. And if you have any issue particular community. It is your problem.

    2. “mythical tale”. It is documented by British his enemy, that it took them a lot more time to control that region from his clan. Ask them why they wrote that. I was just highlighting it.

  44. @RS
    “Similarly West UP and Haryana was badly disrupted after 1200s. A lot of villages were emptied of people, new settlements happened.” — So,as per what you are saying they were basically populating empty villages and clearing forests/bushes and they hardly faced any competition from existing groups.

    “Don’t you know that whole belt of Jammu to Narmada (MP) and from Raj to Bihar are not difficult to navigate. Also brahmins are present all over India. ”
    — Moving from one place to another and en masse migration and settlement are two different things.
    As far as brahmins are considered, i have written that their migrations were of very different kind, brahmins got things handed to them as they were coveted by kings for their knowledge and they were provided with all sorts of bare minimum stuff like land, cows for their settlements with local peasants who would work for them , Who would have done the same for jats lol !

    “FYI any community/social groups having clans are based on their clan bkgd. It is the clan identity that is more important.” — I didn’t get this, perhaps both of us need to work on improving our english 🙂 .

    “Lol Bais are one of the most important clan of Rajputs. And for thakur it is title of that community like some use Chaudhary.” — Since thakur in UP is almost synonymous with rajputs/kshatriyas , my use of “UP thakur” implied rajputs/kshatriyas of UP. A friend on mine says that the bais primarily came from Ahirs and others but he might be wrong .

    1. “A friend on mine says that the bais primarily came from Ahirs and others but he might be wrong .” Communities like Gujjar or Ahir also recently claimed Baji Rao or any ruler as their own lol ??. Inferiority complex is old in some peasant communities who did nothing in the past and have no history of their own.
      And for your info Yadav surname was adopted by Ahirs etc in 1935. In UP today’s Yadav are not even ahir, forget about being yadav etc.
      And Bais finds mention in Hueing Tsang word “Feshe” as clan of Harshvardhana. It is mostly accepted that Harsha was crowned at Daundiya Khera. Even today the region is Bais clan populated.
      ” I didn’t get this, perhaps both of us need to work on improving our english”
      Simple in any community based on clans, it is the particular clan identity and its bkgd which holds importance.

      1. “And for your info Yadav surname was adopted by Ahirs etc in 1935. In UP today’s Yadav are not even ahir, forget about being yadav etc.” — I never mentioned yadav so i have no idea why are you writing something that was irrelevant to the above (and which i already know) . Appropriation of Yadav surname by Ahirs and similar pastoralist castes started with early 20th century afaik, these days even chamars use Yadav surname in parts of Rajasthan and Madhya pradesh.
        The one who made the claim to me about bais coming from ahirs is neither an ahir nor a gujjar but belongs to the same jaati whose absence east of braj region has been perplexing you 🙂 .

        “In UP today’s Yadav are not even ahir, forget about being yadav etc.” —- Dude, what are you even trying to say here ?

        1. “but belongs to the same jaati whose absence east of braj region has been perplexing you ?”
          Hahaha ohh those who claim everyone from Anangpal to Sikarwar clan lol. So much for inferiority complex lol. All Kissan groups hate that community because they had kicked these kissans asses badly in the past. Old rivalry. Rajasthan even had this till recently.

        2. “Dude, what are you even trying to say here ?” Ever heard of term appropriation. This is what some groups suffering with complex feelings are doing.

        3. My point was there were groups like ghosi, gwar, ahar, ahirs, dauwas etc all endogamous separate groups who didn’t used to intermarry with each other. So, definitely not a one community in strict sense before 1920s. These all group came together to form yadav mahasabha in 1920s, declaring themselves to use yadav as surname. So the present day yadav as a community is not even 100 yr old. ?

        4. “belongs to the same jaati whose absence east of braj region has been perplexing you ?” well in Brits records that “jaati group” was claiming patrilineal descent from the same community they hate the most ?. They didn’t had idea about their own identity and migration in braj in 1880s, what right answers they would give about clans found near kannauj belt.

  45. “So,as per what you are saying they were basically populating empty villages and clearing forests/bushes and they hardly faced any competition from existing groups.”
    I am not sure if you have gone through history of some of these regions or not. Post 1192 Tarain battle, a lot of disruption had happened many local people had died in these regions. Apart from that start of heavy movements of people into north rajasthan, haryana is from post Arab invasion in Sindh when they pushed local nomadic groups near Indus towards east direction into present day North west states of India.
    An example: Sirsa-Hissar district etc was very less populated during 1780s as per Brits records, and most of the settlement are post that period from north rajasthan.

    1. “I am not sure if you have gone through history of some of these regions or not” — I haven’t till now because i wasn’t really interested .

      “post Arab invasion in Sindh when they pushed local nomadic groups near Indus towards east direction into present day North west states of India.” —- Am i correct in sensing the (usual) claim of haryanvi jats being migrants from sindh ? Given present genetic evidence , this doesn’t seem to be likely with sindhis being quite heavy on the Iran_N side and jats being heavy on the Steppe side.

      “there were groups like ghosi, gwar, ahar, ahirs, dauwas etc all endogamous separate groups who didn’t used to intermarry with each other.” — I am aware of this but fwiw, even different brahmin clans elsewhere maintained clan based endogamy, for example in bihar, maithilis didn’t marry kanyakubja and vice-versa(exceptions can be there) .

      “was claiming patrilineal descent from the same community they hate the most” — I thought they were claiming descent from the elusive nagavanshi kshatriyas.

      1. “Am i correct in sensing the (usual) claim of haryanvi jats being migrants from sindh ? Given present genetic evidence , this doesn’t seem to be likely with sindhis being quite heavy on the Iran_N side and jats being heavy on the Steppe side. ”

        The reason could present day Sindhis in pk having substantial Baloch population who were allegedly Medes. Don’t forget a large segment of Sindh is Baloch. And it was ruled by Arabs which might have led to some inter marriages with them. Amongst Muslims anyday inhibition towards marrying in other groups is less.

        So it could also be a case of X displacing Y and Y moving to newer place.

        1. “And it was ruled by Arabs which might have led to some inter marriages with them. ” — I don’t think there is a major genetic impact of Arabs on the Sindhi populace, perhaps Razib can chime in and tell more.

      2. “I thought they were claiming descent from the elusive nagavanshi kshatriyas.” Nagvanshi was claimed by other clans in MP, bihar etc. Back those days in 1880s they claimed paternal descent from the community they hate the most.
        And today, just a little change in their story with the habit of appropriation.
        Should I send you old links from 1870s-80s to validate the same.

        I am aware of this but fwiw, even different brahmin clans elsewhere maintained clan based endogamy, for example in bihar, maithilis didn’t marry kanyakubja and vice-versa(exceptions can be there) .
        But they all identified with each other and as you said some exception case of marriages were there between them.

        The problem with today yadavs/ahirs is they were all separate endogamous groups with nearly no case of marriages between their ahirs, ghosi, gwar, dauwa, ahar etc. Ahar always asked to be called separate from ahir in UP. Only in 1931 were recorded as same reason all of them had adopted new name yadav ( ahirs who were largest amongst them campaigned for this decision). After that they all are ahir with yadav surname.

        1. “Nagvanshi was claimed by other clans in MP, bihar etc. ” — iirc, this idea was also introduced by some british officers for some jat clans. The claimaints of nagavanshi lineage in jharkhand, chattisgarh were not usual rajputs afaik.

          “Ahar always asked to be called separate from ahir in UP. ” — i am not aware of this.

          “you said some exception case of marriages were there between them.” — was alluding to a few cases of ‘love marriage’ 🙂

          1. @td “this idea was also introduced by some british officers” well I don’t which theory, don’t find any such thing except brits saying that they are claiming some connection with a particular community with whom they hate now.

            “i am not aware of this”

            I can give the link for that, if you ask for.

            “was alluding to a few cases of ‘love marriage’

            It is very common for dubey of UP to marry some Mishra of Bihar in last 60-70 yrs. Ahirs case of marriages was not there 20 yrs back, forget about any marriage 70 yrs back. Understand the difference!!
            Brahmins clan system works very different. This is true for any clan based Social groups but Ahirs case is little comical.
            What Ahirs had was separate endogamous groups not clans with almost no connection of marriage between them, they identified themselves as separate.

  46. https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacific/20201027-tens-of-thousands-answer-anti-france-rally-call-by-bangladeshi-islamist-party

    Maybe those Indians who were telling me over the years that Bangladesh’s secular image is greatly overestimated were right, and that it was only held intact by the dictatorial powers of Hasina. We’ll see over the coming years once she fades from the scene. Stories like these certainly don’t help the moderation/secularisation narrative.

    1. “Maybe those Indians who were telling me over the years that Bangladesh’s secular image is greatly overestimated were right”

      this tallies with my assessment of b’desh’s psyche. razib usually underplays the islamist undercurrents in b’desh politics. i generally defer to him on this topic because i believe he is more in touch with reality than me when it comes to b’desh. however, i have always felt that islam remains a political force in b’desh, and sooner or later will come back to play a larger role in the country. i also believe hasina era will be replaced by some quasi islamist regime, like an alliance between islamic parties and BNP. let’s see how it goes.

    2. BD economic miracle is more Chine-esque. Less to do with secularism, more to do with stable politics provided by a authoritarian rule.

  47. “well I don’t which theory,” — descendance from nagavanshis.

    “It is very common for dubey of UP to marry some Mishra of Bihar in last 60-70 yrs. ” —- Hmm, Mishra is surname present in many different clans !

    “Brahmins clan system works very different. ” — Sure

    “What Ahirs had was separate endogamous groups not clans with almost no connection of marriage between them,” — One Ahir i know claims gwal and ghosi as sub-castes of Ahir. Gwal is also a gotra among jats iirc.

    1. “play a major role in the depopulation of the region ?”
      True to an extent, this north rajasthan to Haryana movement was post this event. It is recorded a lot of clans migrated to haryana from north rajasthan post 1780s. Especially settled around Bhiwani, Sirsa and Hissar.

      “One Ahir i know claims gwal and ghosi as sub-castes of Ahir. Gwal is also a gotra among jats iirc.”
      Gaola surname of jat are found in a different X region say compared to gwal or ghosi who are in Y region. They can be interconnected only if there was any link of migration between them. The fact is it wasn’t.
      Also ghosi were not even ahir in earlier days. criminal Ateeq Ahmad- he is a converted ghosi ( Ghosi M). Ghosi was separate endogamous group before 1920s. So, I don’t know what type of subcastes they were of Ahir?Gwal & Ghosi never used to intermarry, till recently just 10-15 yrs ago.?

  48. Is the comment thread getting high comments a function of lack of published posts or are the excess new comments due to our new commentator RS?

          1. he has some mental health struggles. i’ve been told this by ppl who know him. it tells you something about the internet that people like him are the foot-soldiers in generating ‘content’ (comments). sad but true

          2. oh, that is sad – I didn’t know that I thought u guys joked about him being on meds – he did seem a bit too angry to me. I sided with him some times when it was him vs the rest. But when he started continuously attacking me here and on Twitter, I gave up trying to engage. Peace

          3. I miss Xerxes’ rants bemoaning the decline of Urdu and Islamic culture in India. It was a guilty pleasure and now that he has locked his Twitter there is no other avenue either

          4. Does he really have those mental issues? Man that’s sad.

            He was Ok for the most part. I mean if u are lone left-liberal for the longest time on the blog, u need a thick skin. So i used to give him benefit of doubt for the most part.

            I dont know what happened to him around the end.

          5. @GauravL
            Some feedback:
            I used to comment a lot earlier but now commenting has started to seem ever more pointless. I don’t have anything to say about genetics and I never had much scholarly interests outside of engineering. Maybe that says something about my narrow education and lack of curiosity in things whose asymptotes I kind of already foresee and a more general aversion to facts that sound interesting but do not have any utility (broadly defined) nor point towards some deeper (not wider like discussions on link between caste and genetics or AIT-OIT, I mean people with sense already get the hint now just leave it to pros) understanding of sciences. I suppose there would be others like me, the good thing is that a lot of new people are showing up. Reading this blog has been an educating experience so far but I have run out of anecdotes and life experiences to share and I increasingly do not consider many discussions/threads important. I do like ‘figuring out solutions’ series.

          6. @Bhim
            You may join (after some readings) our undergoing linguistic discussion and strengthen oit depleted rows? Or, you may do a background work and prepare for the next topics – mythology and toponyms? Maybe some SA-Euro historical connections from SA perspective? Or, just to follow the outcome of the war in Nagorno-Karabakh? What about using of autonomous systems in future warfare? So many topics…

  49. an unusually high number of comments on the open thread r in the trash – mostly non-abusive or trashy. something up with the Asikmet plugin I guess.
    or is a word “[email protected]” blocked ? coz i mentioned his absence and the comment went to trash 😀

    1. If only Bollywood would take a cue from that, and not name every 2nd character Kbir. Its like Raj, Rahul of 90s

    2. Hope he will be good and sing again. That would require the doubling efforts from his servants. I was wandering how it was possible to defend American democracy and their imperial policies, to declare the movement as own identity, to be a declarative (oxymoron) liberal and defend burqa as a fashion detail, not to be against jihad, sharia and taqiyya, not laugh re 77v and 3T…and all these in the SAME time!!!? It had to take the toll. Hopefully, it will finish well.

  50. Today a girl was shot dead In Faridabad( tehsil ballabgarh) by some boys ( from Nuh) for not converting to Islam( alleged) or i call it Bollywood Syndrome. The parents have complianed the police about the boys nearly 2 years ago and no action happened probably because the said criminal/s were related to some MLA.
    Not sure who to blame the Police or the Mindset of certain Communites ( i am not saying Muslim community ).The muslims that live in Nuh,Mewat ( muslim majority areas of Haryana) have kind of predatory mindset and crime rate is also very high including gambling, cow smuggling. The people there are quite snobbish. I am speaking from experience as My father worked there for 5 years and have told stories about their general backwardness infrawise or mentality wise. Lack of Hygiene, poor women conditions etc are some things plaguing these areas and on average the TFR is high.

      1. There been recent surge in theft including jewelry snatches, car theft etc ( in my locality) but the police don’t seem to bother even after compliants.
        They just patrol several times in their car.
        Also people are using the term Love Jihad and this time i think its Ok to call out the mentality of said criminals. ( Lots of Gujjars here with the same mindset).

  51. Who?
    The MLA or the criminal.
    Well i live near 3 kms from the crime scene the roads are blocked till notice.

  52. I miss Xerxes’ rants bemoaning the decline of Urdu and Islamic culture in India. It was a guilty pleasure and now that he has locked his Twitter there is no other avenue either

    he has a private blog too.

    1. Private is the key word.
      The blog went private 6-7 or more months ago probably cause he didn’t want the Hindu/Hindutva crowd to entertain.
      This year vanished quick.

  53. BP has got a bit tiring and repetitive. We need more diversity of topics, writers and commentators. Let’s all agree to end the great Jat wars and in general freeze the phenotype and ancestry discussions for 6 months.

    Potential topics / authors of interest:
    1. Omarali on the Pak political situation
    2. Shafiq on Bangladeshi economy
    3. Bhimrao on technology and India (with a more optimistic lens, please :))
    4. Prats, Harsh or someone else on market / business opportunities in India
    5. An ABCD perspective on Indian culture and heritage in the West
    6. Modern day Chanakyas on how India can handle China and potential scenarios and options
    7. An ex-Muslim to talk about Islam and to debunk Mohammed (More I read about his story the more amazed I am at modern day, informed people literally worshipping the guy)
    8. A critical look at Buddhist theology and philosophy. I feel like they get a pass from all sides (including our loving Islamists next door but that’s only because they hate the Hindus more)
    9. Get Xerxes back for entertainment

    1. “Get Xerxes back for entertainment”

      I wonder what Zach would think of that lol!
      (He had his moments of “efflorescence” too so it was not all histrionics after all?)

  54. The reaction of the Islamic world esp Turkey and Pakistan to th Charlie La Affairs Hebdo has shown to France and Europe about the new found belligency of Islamic fundementalisma nd it’s state sponsors.

    To that extent it is good for India. France is a UNSC member and will see through the shenanigans of Pakistan vis-a-vis Kashmir and it’s Sutradhar (one who holds the leash) China in the UNSC.

    Kashmir is a Islamic Fundemntalist crucible and talking point for Islamists arund the world and it’s enemies are worldwide

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54692485

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/pakistan-parliament-passes-resolution-to-recall-envoy-but-has-no-ambassador-in-france/articleshow/78895898.cms

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54717587

  55. State Visit Sri Lanka. President’s Reagan, J.R. Jayewardene’s Toasts Remarks at State Dinner in State Dining Room on June 18, 1984

    Never liked JR, bloody elitist who allowed the July 83 to go on for 3 days.
    The only credit I give him is that he outfoxed Rajiv Gandhi. Plus he could talk, no teleprompters etc and often off the cuff.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OHGpO_1j8o

    1. Is there anyone in this world who thought well abt Rajiv Gandhi? In that sense his son atleast has some well wishers.

      1. Saurav

        I dont think Rajiv was a bad guy.

        Unhappily he was thrust into a position far above his pay grade. It didnt help his advisors were the same as his mothers.

        Poor guy had to take the fall for the policies his mother set in motion.

        Anyway, the main crux of the video was how far aligned SL was with the US at that time. Indira Gandhi to thwart US role in SL started training the LTTE and set in motion what would result in her sons assassination by the LTTE

        The swing to China was in 2005 with the Rajapakses who are less ideological and more nationalist.

    2. He is a great speaker..Thanks for sharing.

      On a different topic: sbarrkum we know everything about what you dislike about India and Hindus (and it’s a very long list) but surely there are a few things you like and appreciate as well. Can you write about that? Thanks

    1. @Narasingha Deva, that’ not exactly an incentive for inter-caste marriage as

      “To qualify for one time incentive, the marriages need to be valid and registered under the Hindu Marriage Act, 1955. Either spouse needs to belong to scheduled castes, according to Article 341 of the Indian Constitution. In short, one of the spouses have to be from an upper caste while the other spouse needs to be from a lower caste. ”

      —- In short , no money would be given to couple when both of them are non-SCs even if they are from different castes.

      In fact , all such incentives for “inter-caste” marriages are like this only, these are incentives for marrying a dalit.

  56. Anyway, I am more annoyed at darker peoples for giving too much credit to lighter ones than for the latter for just loving themselves. People need to have some pride in their look.

    this is not as big of a thing in the USA tho. or Canada? idk. am i wrong?

    1. depends on how may desis live in the area. The high desi concentration ones, it is still a minor thing, though not as big as S Asia. Physique also matters more for physical attractiveness I think in the US.

      I also notice in S Asia, skin color trumps even the caucasoid facial features part. Light skin is just seen as so synonymous with beauty. I can’t really see a good reason why other than being overrun by light skin people forever and cultural trend entrenchment by lighter ruling classes and wanting to identify with winners among the generally darker poor.

      1. warlock, the aesthetic hierarchies are interesting, my personal take as an indian-american who’s now lived in india (and dated in both countries) for a while is that low-brow advertisements and film casting decisions only tell part of the story. On one hand, if one were darker skinned in NA they had more beauty paradigms to access and hence women had make-up targeted at afr-am or skin tones ect. Also, if a woman exempted themselves from the desi dating scene, they might have a much higher dating status in the general pop who don’t rank the color/caucasian physiognamy-adjacency of browns. On the other hand, I’ve found commentary and bragging about passing for west asian far (not even close) more common in the diaspora, and desi-americans haven’t shaken a deep-seated inferiority complex, generally speaking.This results in us projecting that onto motherland desis who have an inferiority complex about their society, not their race. In India, scorn for “AASI” features is its association with low status/poverty not the quality in and of itself. Within regions, the color gradient is a bit predictive of status, but now as regional elites are mixing, the common denominator of attraction is wealth, health and confidence.
        TL,DR don’t expect to find dark chocolate 10s in india that are completely unappreciated

        1. IMO one of the reasons fair skin is considered attractive is because of its relative rarity.
          (Apart from the status signalling and Bollywood conditioning, obviously.)

          I see Indian women caking their faces with make-up at weddings as similar to western women going to tanning booths.

  57. @Bhimrao

    Thank you. May our tribe grow. The ones who care for solutions. Rather than to just keep dunking on others.

  58. •Sikh dharm Sikh Law forbids bania Sikh wedlock ; It is most condemnable sin and punishable offence.
    Rehat maryada code of conduct forbids Sikh lass from wedlock with nonsikh. Jat tradition Jat Tribal law forbids Jat bania marital alliance which is frankly laughable – typical bania Bengley even in infancy r terrified of baby dog pup katura. So stupide .
    Jat and non Jat disposition is markedly different- r homes aumsweethome ain’t no stuffy library –
    At most bania can be keshdhari hindoo. Heinous treachery by bahminbania in centuries past towards satguru Panth is unforgivable.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/718606/a-baniya-in-my-backyard

    ~Jatti belong with Jat~

    The obvious displays of cultural genocide against Jat Sikh element of Panth as noted in this website have not gone unnoticed .
    Panth is in solidarity with Kashmir where Geneva convention has been violated since 1947 – chinky fraud dali lama is given support – weird in nefarious manner .
    R and L oriental confuse
    It’s dar rama
    ———-
    War criminals will be held accountable in the here and now and more importantly in the hereafter .

  59. // That’s genetics you can’t buy //

    Lol @ Qureishi. Which century do you inhabit?

    The below isn’t just an internet link. I know (rich) Indians (Marwaris) who send their daughters to the same N London nursery as my kids’. And the daughters barely look anything like the parents. Same skin tone as my (ethnically Kashmiri) daughter – except both have blue eyes.

    fertility-docs.com/programs-and-services/pgd-screening/choose-your-babys-eye-color.php

    1. @slapstick

      LOL, you can choose eye color, maybe get surgery to shape your jawline, maybe get hair transplant, and a side order of botox injections on the lips and cheeks, perhaps laser for the excessive body hair..still won’t get the canthal tilt or high cheekbones, or the correct ratios for male and female face, that is considered objectively attractive. And above all that, your highly modified Indo-human will most likely fall in the Uncanny Valley and creep most people out.

      People should simply accept that some humans/groups of humans are just born more attractive for whatever reason, rather than go all communist about looks. This was pretty much a given where I grew up that Pasthuns were attractive (not because of skin color) but because of their features .. yet this never caused any type of inferiority complex among us, we had other things to brag about as a group. I find the long and detailed discussion here about genetics and race and looks pretty disturbing, it does not seem like a scientific curiosity but something more sinister. It fees into the Pak nationalist theories about race that Indians lament the lost of it’s NW lands because of the race of peoples inhabiting those lands, whereas they don’t show the same lamentation about Bangladesh.

      1. Your racialist hierarchy views on looks aren’t objective. If you think your group is uglier than Pashtuns, that is on you. “Other stuff to brag about.” Lol you sound like a Nazi with inherent race stuff nonsense.

        1. @warlock

          There are traits that are clearly and objectively associated with good looks and some groups have those traits more than other groups. There is nothing Nazi about it, looks don’t determine the value of a human being. I am not feeling inferior if Jamaicans sweep the board for the 100 metre dash, or East Africans sweep the marathon charts or East Asians score high in IQ tests.. you get the drift.

          1. These are objective. Looks are not objective. That is the issue with your argument.

            What is considered beautiful is heavily based on who the relevant historical power brokers are and the proximity of those groups to those power brokers.

            If you can prove to me Pashtuns have more symmetrical faces than other groups, maybe than can be a start, since symmetry is a recognized cross cultural norm of beauty. Maybe you can then argue, that on average humans will find that group more beautiful. You need actual data that is quantifiable and without obvious confounders. Not your odd assertions.

            Is dark skin objectively uglier in men? Testosterone makes for dark skin and broad shoulders. But broad shoulders are considered attractive in men in S Asia but not dark skin. Also, then you can argue that in most cultures men prefer women with skin a bit lighter and women a men a bit lighter. But then once again, S Asia is in violation considering the lightest skin he most attractive, even among the darkest groups. That is the mark of history influencing standards.

            Comparing your anecdotal opinions about a group of people to something as objective as time, something that can be measured with the decay of cesium, I mean come on man. You have to do better than that.

          2. No one is saying if there were an objective metric of looks found without the insane confounders and variables that are currently present and some groups came out higher than others that that would diminish the status of anyone in terms of worth and dignity. However, those metrics have not been discussed and frankly don’t exist thus far in the data we have. If you do a big symmetry survey again or something super cross cultural and found certain trends, then yeah sure, you can start to point in some direction. But you have to do that first and show the data. Until then, it’s frankly just an assumption and an opinion on your part. Nothing more.

            And people not accepting your opinion doesn’t mean much, when it is an opinion backed up entirely by subjective factors rather than objective ones.

            Also, I can speak for myself, I do lament the “loss” of Bangladesh as much as I do Pakistan. It is just that I don’t see Bangladeshis asserting all day long about how they are some comparatively super human species and totally different and all the good things from the civilization I am from are actually stolen from them. They don’t do that stuff. I don’t see hardcore racialism and illiberal thought from them in that realm.

          3. @warlock
            The problem is that I believe there are some objective markers of beauty, which exist cross culturally. It’s anecdotal because there is little if any scientific literature on this stuff, and even if there is, it’s heavily heavily biased. Nazi racial atrocities during WW2 pretty much ended any possibility of scientifically studying this for decades to come (if not centuries). This is why I am trying not further this argument because it only leads down to a path of pseudoscience (some of which may very well have merit) because real credible scientific literature here does not exist.
            w.r.t to skin, clear glowing skin is objectively better than non-glowing skin. It’s considered a sign of health, which is attractive. Now I don’t have any literature, but you tell me which shade of skincolor reflects light better and thus give off a glowing vibe? which shade of skin color can finds it harder to hide blemishes/skin defects?
            I am just asking questions here, I am not the one going all Marx on physical beauty, I merely replying to my innocent comment that Pasthuns are considered more beautiful(not due to skin color but other features outlined above), which has outraged everyone here.

          4. It outrages people that you are presenting it like it is an objective fact, which it is categorically not. It is an opinion.

            I have no idea what you mean about glowing skin? Are you talking about shiny skin?

            I mean these statements are just odd. Once again, what objective standard is this? Shiny skin? Literally, all that means is skin that is not dehydrated. That is generally all that means. In the hospital, when people aren’t dehydrated their skin shines. When I went to carribean heck, darker skinned people’s skin shined more in the sun not less. So I guess by that standard darker is better? Again, I am not even sure what you mean.

            Go Karl Marx? what are you even talking about? I just said you don’t have evidence for what you are saying. So it is nothing more than an opinion. You asserting it as fact and then bringing up odd points about canthal tilts, “shiny lighter skin,” mandibles etc. is what is weird. You really know what all of those come down to right? The same BS hardcore european racialogists would use to talk about how glorious and beautiful they were and how they deserved to own and subjugate the rest of the world. I mean come on man.

            If I had said, I have conclusive evidence that all population groups are equally beautiful and that is a fact, then that is perhaps going Karl Marx because it is an assumption of equality without facts. You are going straight Nazi. You are making the opposite assumption and more without facts. Because you are not only saying some groups are more beautiful but you are specifying which ones are and you are implying it is objective, as if there is some empirically based explanation out there

          5. Beauty is analogous to food, rather than something truly objective like time.

            The time is the time regardless of your personal tastes. Where as beauty is a matter of taste.

            Statistically some foods can be considered more delicious some less across the board. It’s also a matter of how well it’s cooked and edible.

            An apple is not “objectively” more delicious than a kiwi. Just because it is a more widespread preference. Similarly for people.

            Rotting “fruit” are not conducive to human survival and generally almost universally considered not delicious for that reason. Similarly with people who are too elderly or too young or asymmetrical etc.

            You can extend the analogy further to methods of preparation, cultural preferences etc.

            This isn’t Marxism, just a nuanced view of reality.

          6. @warlock

            There are two things I have said,

            1) There are some traits that are considered objectively beautiful

            2) Pashtuns as a group are considered more attractive due to them having a higher frequency of physical traits that are considered objectively beautiful.

            In both cases, I have acknowledge that these are politically charged claims due to which credible scientific evidence is unavailable. I cannot pinpoint a scientific study on Pasthuns and their facial features and other physical traits, vs a similar study of hundreds of other groups, as I am not aware of any such study. Nazi atrocities after WW2 have taken care of those.

            What I find fascinating is that you are projecting too much off this, by appealing to Nazism, European Colonial racialism and what not. What did I say that is so controversial? It was based on my own experiences of growing up near poor Afghan refugees. Most people in the Indian subcontinent would agree with my remark about Pasthuns, it’s not something outrageous.

            I am aware of the bad history behind all of this, but this is one of the reasons why science cannot delve into these topics because there is too much historical baggage.

          7. @Sumit

            You are right by drawing an analogy to food, but then if you break food down to it’s contents, you will notice that things like sugar, salt and fat are almost universally preferred by humans which is why restaurants have come up with innovative ways to make their food sell well by using lavish amounts of salt, sugar and fat. A chimpanzee will work harder if it is rewarded with a grape rather than slice of cucumber. The same could be argued for specific physical traits that are preferred universally, and some groups of humans might have those higher in number than other groups, due to a host of reasons.

          8. Yeah I am just not going to debate further. Your assertions lack evidence. You yourself have admitted that. Now you are just appealing to the fact that many people hold the view. I mean a view can still be misguided, despite many people holding it.

            Also, once again it is your opinion that Pashtuns have a higher frequency of these universally desired traits. So I mean feel free to have an opinion. Opinions are like assholes, we all have one. Nothing special about it. And that it’s popular, so what? Groupthink can lead to enough mass ignorance.

            If you just used the preface of “I think” or “I believe” or “My opinion is,” I wouldn’t have taken issue. You present things sometimes, as if they are facts rather than just your views. That’s all they are in the end.

            Then you draw hugely false equivalences to 100m times. I am that is just fallacious logic.

      2. @Qureishi

        “t fees into the Pak nationalist theories about race that Indians lament the lost of it’s NW lands because of the race of peoples inhabiting those lands, whereas they don’t show the same lamentation about Bangladesh.”

        We dont; lament abt BD , because its basically an Indian state bruh 😛

      3. @Qureishi

        Your comment is typically silly and totally misplaced.
        a) I do think some groups of humans can be better looking than others (and good for them)
        b) I was specifically commenting to let you know that people can/do pay for their kids skin tones and eye colours!
        c) “uncanny valley” is a phrase for androids, not human beings.
        d) I have no skin in the Pashtuns look like this or that game. I see them as a separate non-Indian culture like I see Chinese or Iranian people and wish them good luck.

        1. Your first point you present as an opinion. And I applaud for that. You aren’t trying to sell it like it is a fact like Mr. Q. You also probably recognize it is perfectly rational for others to have a different opinion on which groups they prefer.

        2. @slapstick

          That’s very reasonable of you.

          I personally don’t consider Pasthuns other like Iranians or Europeans, because Pasthuns are everywhere in Pakistan, and I grew up and live alongside many. Which is why I made the original comment.

    1. From a leftist perspective this is violence (physical) in response to violence (hate speech)

      curious to see how french society responds.

  60. Commentator Seinundzeit
    u confirmed what I already know and have always known in my heart ~ Godspeed beloved Afghana Godspeed. Even if u hadn’t written your comment, i already know of the truths u wrote – & only natural beauty is deserving of the word beauty . Actual beauty Definitely •cannot• be purchased – it’s like comparing a plastic flower with a real naturally growing wild rose.

  61. lol ok we get it people. You guys think afghans look great. Fantastic. I am glad you like yourselves. I just want other S Asians not to pedastalize others just for lighter pigment and more caucasoid on average features take pride in their own features.

    I don’t get all the “colored eye” worship. I have also not seen all these tall broad chested pashtuns. But I know a total of like 10 my entire life and they looked regular. Some skinny, some fat. Two worked out a lot and had some muscles but nothing crazy. And I’m decently involved in the powerlifting scene, so I know enough big people and what it truly means to be in the upper tiers of strength.

    This is me. I am very happy with my typical brown look. And I do quite well with all types but my “type” is medium to light brown women with some nice curves and a small waist.

    https://imgur.com/a/MjmuBTz

    And at Jatt Sikh supremacist poster against banias having relationships with “their women” just lmfao. So much weirdness.

    1. Some of the oldest surviving artwork in India (Ajanta frescos) doesn’t show evidence of fair skin bias.

      Same with skin colours of the “Bhumiputra” gods within the Hindu pantheon and Jaina trithkaras.

      I speculate that this is a steppe introduction to the region not IVC. But who knows.

      1. someone once told me I have a very “ancient” look. Someone here also said I look like Indus priest. Have you been to the caves? I went, but I didn’t look that carefully. Do I resemble the paintings?

      2. To quote Ananda Coomaraswamy: The Arts and Crafts of India and Ceylon (1913)

        The paintings of Ajanta, though much damaged, still form the greatest extant monument of ancient painting and the only school except Egyptian in which a dark-skinned race is taken as the normal type.

        Dark skinned women in Ajanta

        https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Q586P-mjwoU/Wz-UzaHoM5I/AAAAAAAAKug/lOJ_FJMZUBwfCu2zM_1HTDPyH0WL3jEdACLcBGAs/s1600/ajanta-paintings2.jpg

        https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Utji2zzlA08/Wz-UzDOmWsI/AAAAAAAAKuc/_DKyL6yPqa8yhUuOTqZ_5AK-Y929HspGQCLcBGAs/s1600/ajanta-paintings.jpg

    2. Most people will be happy with their looks if they just lift weights, cut body fat and grow strategic facial hair to hide any deficiencies. And if they groom properly, wear nice clean clothes, they will not have any confidence issues with their looks. They will become comfortable in their own skin, and will be comfortable with the idea that there will always be better looking people than them.

      Unfortunately, most people are not like that..

      1. Of course there are better and worse looking people, in terms of popular opinion. But even then there will be some dissent. And it will be heavily influenced by culture and history, especially history of dominance. But stuff like facial symmetry, cross cultural standard of beauty, is not race specific. Even then it is subjective, in terms of universality, in that some individuals may not value it. Your racial hierarchy and belief also in this “objective” idea of some races being better looking is stupid. It is still subjective in the end.

        Your opinions and mentioning specifics like canthal tilt wreaks of language typical of hardcore 19th century pseudoscience citing racists

        Btw, when new groups discover one another, they generally think of each other as odd looking.

        If aliens discovered us, they would find us all to be ugly. There is no objective standard for beauty that is entirely universal in the truest sense of the term.

      2. Everyone recognizes that some people will on average be considered good looking by the society they live in before they do any of that stuff. But yes, that’s how one “maximizes” their looks for modern culture.

        Most people are happy with their looks without doing that stuff. But yes, people tend to be optimally content, if they do those things and they weren’t happy to begin with.

        Actually, interestingly, doing all of that would have been considered feminine a 100 years ago and make a man come off odd. Men were “supposed to be” rustic and not really care too much about their looks.

        Beards and beard styles are interesting in how they fluctuate in importance. Why do some cultures make women put a dish in their mouthes. Why do others do foot binding historically? Again, beauty is heavily culturally dependent.

        But yes, in the modern era, in cosmopolitan places- having the lowest body fat one can have and maximizing lean mass along with dressing in form fitted clothes and rocking a very manicured looking hairstyle and beard pattern is the key to maximizing one’s “looks status” in society.

    3. @thewarlock
      What are your values for
      -bizygomatic width
      -bigonal width
      -minimum frontal width
      -maximum head width (xcb)
      -maximum head length (glabella inion)
      -head circumference

        1. In that case I’ll assume that the picture is accurate and that the camera didn’t make things look disproportionate in any way, which results in fairly narrow ratios overall in comparison to the face length.

  62. @slapstick

    And wtf at those Marwaris with blue eyed kids. Why are they so hateful of their own features. This is just pathetic. That is one literally and figuratively cucked family.

    1. @warlock

      Calm down. People can (and should) do what they please. And if they have the money to do it, why not…

      I personally think it is a silly idea but then I don’t take myself so seriously to feel bad when others think differently.

  63. In vitro is heinous atrocity , highly sinful . Bad karm the effects of which will likely linger for lifetimes probably . It’s like the dystopian Orwellian hatchery. A purgatory for zygotes – hey rab bachau ?
    Pure thoughts create pure bodies .

  64. “Look at Haryana Jat pics on those sites too as they cluster closer. I have posted the links. They do not look full west West Eurasian to me. I can see AASI influence.” —- @thewarlock, apologies for the stupid question but what “influence of” AASI you saw in the brides and grooms pictures ? What exclusive AASI features you saw in the photos?

    1. People say typical upper caste N indian, the N Indian demographic that constitutes Indians in US diaspora have aasi influence in looks. These people don’t look far off at all from that look. So by extension they have aasi in look.

      Regardless,main point is that they don’t look like other “near pure west eurasians.” We don’t know how iranic component of IVC people looked in “pure” form nor “pure” aasi because that doesn’t exist today. So it is hard to say with 100% certainty.

      But the bigger point is that these people do have some uniqueness in average look but it is FAR closer and has FAR more overlap with upper caste N Indians than with say W Asians or Caucus populations, as has been suggested by some commentors.

    2. td states:
      “Look at Haryana Jat pics on those sites too as they cluster closer. I have posted the links. They do not look full west West Eurasian to me. I can see AASI influence.” —- @thewarlock, apologies for the stupid question but what “influence of” AASI you saw in the brides and grooms pictures ? What exclusive AASI features you saw in the photos?

      —-

      Reminiscent of the “Emperor’s new clothes” phenomenon.

    1. Any Pakistani will say that after visiting Istanbul. The city is simply marvelous, and despite having 15 million people, it was one of the cleanest mega cities that I have visited. It’s also one of the most beautiful.

  65. Spate of beheadings and killings in France done by Muslims outraged by Mohammed’s cartoons…
    The first killer was an 18 year old Chechen. I am amazed that an 18 year old knew how to kill efficiently with a knife, but not only that, knew how to BEHEAD his victim. What kind of savage culture are Muslims exposed to in their childhood? I suppose the Bakra Eid ritual of killing goats (and in the subcontinent cows because Hindus) is a way to train the children in these skills…I would much rather than cow urine drinking than train kids on how to kill innocent animals (and when need be, humans).

  66. How do you fight against Islamism?
    These blasphemy beheadings whether in India or France cannot be treated as normal law and order crimes. You cannot just punish the culprits and be done with it. eg. Ensuring that the killers and the conspirators of Kamlesh Tiwari killing are in jail will NOT stop further such crimes.
    India and the west have to find a way to drain the Islamist swamp which continues to produce such nutcases. Since these killings were because of blasphemy more blasphemy needs to committed in order to normalize it and break the hold of Islamic blasphemy memes on common Muslims. France projecting Mohammad cartoons publicly on govt. buildings is a great first step. Indians trending blasphemic hashtags against Muhammad after Kamlesh Tiwari’s killing also was an effective counter. It got many Indian Muslims who otherwise call themselves “liberals” and “atheists”, out in the open defending Muhammad.
    Muslims need to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into modernity. Atleast in the countries where they are minority.

    1. Calm down tiger. Before you go on rampage against muslims because some mentally ill lunatic killed over cartoon. In India hundreds of muslims and dalits have been lynched in last 6 years with state backing over suspicious of eating cow meat.

      1. Baba,
        Hundreds of Muslims and Dalits? Any links to back up your claim?
        https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-20/cow-vigilantes-in-india-killed-at-least-44-people-report-finds
        This says 44 people have died in cow related attacks and 36 were Muslim. Stop making shit up just because your Muslim feelings were hurt that some Muslims went on rampage in France beheading people and that people like your and your leaders (Mahathir, Imran) are totally silently or vocally supporting the crazy “lunatics”. Your brutal warlord prophet (Perfect man forever, lol) set the template and you guys have been following it for 1400 years now.
        Seriously, you and you ilk need to be dragged into modernity. Stop indoctrinating your kids to hate the Kafir, stop Dhimmifying your already scared minorities, and please join the civilized world. The world is fast seeing through your hypocrisy, especially of those Muslims pretending to liberal/woke.

        1. 44 till 2019 over cow meat, and thats not even counting random lynching and killing of muslims and dalits. Remember Delhi riots? So before giving lecture to muslims how about you drag yourself first to modernity.

          1. French draw racist cartoons to piss on already marginalised muslim community in that country. Majority of them from France colonies. Some lunatic mentally ill lonely wolf behead someone. No one is supporting killing over cartoons.

          2. People eat cow meat because thats what people have been doing for thousands of years and not to piss on hindu belief system. Yet reactions are still extreme with many lynched in last 6 years with backing of state.

          1. “and thats not even counting random lynching and killing of muslims and dalits”

            Instead of arguing with him like this, why don’t you actually show us some solid stats on how many muslims were killed by Hindus? And why not compare that to how many Hindus are killed by muslims in the subcontinent? And what about muslims attacking dalits? And what about Ahmedis being persecuted (so much that they’d rather live in a Hindu-majority country than a muslim-majority one)?

            Quit trying so hard to play the victim card

            And it’s funny how you’re warning him not to go on a “rampage against muslims” while muslims are actually going around killing French in the name of religion

            Instead of trying to vilify Hindus and engaging in whataboutism, go ask your fellow ummah members to stop going on a rampage against non-muslims across the world (and the guy who carried out the double stabbing in France last month was from pakistan, FYI)

          2. and thats not even counting random lynching and killing of muslims and dalits

            Why not provide some solid stats on how many muslims were killed by Hindus like he asked? And also why not compare that to the no. of Hindus being killed by muslims? And what about muslims attacking dalits? And what about Ahmadis (the fact that they would rather live in Hindu-majority India than muslim-majority pak says enough)?

            Quit trying so hard to play the victim card, this isn’t Twitter, most people here know well who treats who in what manner and to what extent

            So before giving lecture to muslims how about you drag yourself first to modernity

            Hindus aren’t the ones stabbing/beheading people all over the world or driving trucks into crowds etc. over beef or whatever else

            No one is supporting killing over cartoons

            Lol, are you for real? There are literally thousands of comments all across the internet supporting those killings and saying that the victims deserved it (not saying that there aren’t any muslims who are condemning it)

            FYI the pakistani man who stabbed 2 people over the Charlie Hebdo cartoons last month was praised too

            Hindus integrate better in most countries when compared to muslims, whether you like it or not

  67. Let see if anyone in the world affiliated with this movement will condemn these killings. I bet – no. Not either oxymoron liberals. After the beheading of Pati, French president presented the idea of the need to create “enlightened Islam” in France. What a Mo©ron! ImKhan accused mocron for ‘attacking islam’…

    …“they need to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into modernity”? These are mutually exclusive terms. If they abandon anticivilisational tenets of the movement this is not the movement anymore then Viennese boys’ choir.

  68. The problem is that I believe there are some objective markers of beauty, which exist cross culturally. It’s anecdotal because there is little if any scientific literature on this stuff, and even if there is, it’s heavily heavily biased.

    no one gives a shit about your opinions. no one cares if you can’t even be bothered to look up the literature, which exists. e.g., Survival of the Prettiest: The Science of BeautyM.

    re: looks. many years ago i read the english translation of asha miro’s book about being adopted.she was much younger looking and better looking than her sister who remained a peasant in rural maharashtra. normally the only dark skinned indians you see in media are nerds or poverty-porn types. it was interesting.

    i know white guys who only date northern europeans, e asians, and dark skinned women. they avoid women from MENA southern europe and north india. they dislike mustaches

    1. Thanks for the book recommendation, I will try to read it. I havent looked into this topic in years but few years back I did go quite deep into it and found some politically controversial arguments a bit compelling.

    2. i know white guys who only date northern europeans, e asians, and dark skinned women. they avoid women from MENA southern europe and north india. they dislike mustaches

      You forgot the aversion to using water and the “aroma” as a result.

      Not trimming body hair and underarm hair does not help either.

  69. If I had said, I have conclusive evidence that all population groups are equally beautiful and that is a fact, then that is perhaps going Karl Marx because it is an assumption of equality without facts. You are going straight Nazi. You are making the opposite assumption and more without facts. Because you are not only saying some groups are more beautiful but you are specifying which ones are and you are implying it is objective, as if there is some empirically based explanation out there

    lots of brown ppl agree with him tho. it’s a common view. not sure i would want to say ‘nazi’

    1. His mentions of canthal tilts, colored eyes, particular jaw line shapes enters that territory in the context of the way he is presenting his views, IMO. But perhaps he just knows the lingo. Maybe many browns would express themselves the same way, if they did too. It’s sad but certainly possible.

      But point well taken. Sadly, many browns agree with him. I mean again, I don’t even blame the pedestalized ones that much at this point. It is good they like themselves.

  70. I did not have time to read above discussion about beauty and phenotypes (usually pretty boring for me) but it was mentioned that there is little if any scientific literature on this stuff, what is untrue. BP is a place where the huge majority of readers are tech guys who haven’t read any philosophical book about aesthetics. There are so many books about the ‘science of beauty’. Beauty in general – a girl, old man, building, coffee cup, lamp, horse(tg), face, kitty, glass, shoes, etc. What does it mean when a writer for e.g. says – ‘beautiful human group of high stature’? The colour is not the only thing. If nothing else, have a look American adds and see who the fashion models are.

  71. the looks argument is interesting to me, because a lot of NW indians think they are better looking and genetically superior. this is true even for ‘woke’ ones as stuff would be said on the sepia mutiny boards.

    BUT, a lot of south and east indians agree. so i can’t blame them.

    i’ve had punjabis tell me that i don’t look “that bengali.” it wasn’t a racist tone, but it was pretty condescending as if i would be embarrassed if i looked “more bengali.” anyway, a lot of bengalis would also say that in a praiseworthy way i guess. my paternal grandfather was tall and light-skinned and people talk about him like he was a god among men in my fam (he died when i was in utero).

    rule #1, take care of your shit.

    1. It just comes across weird as someone raised culturally American (of course some minor Indian influence from parents) to think this way about one’s self. Like I see it is prevalent. But man it’s like wtf? Why continue to think that way? Why put yourself down? People act like phenotypic hierarchies on looks aren’t a big deal. But they are. Looks are part of sexual selection. When you debase entire sets of perfectly healthy looks like that, you are saying because of your arbitrary metrics, in a sense, these people are less worthy of reproduction and genetic propagation. Anyway, that’s a bit abstract.

      People need to learn to like themselves or nobody else will. And honestly the looks stuff has more sticking power. The stereotypes about smart or good at business those are transient. The looks stuff has the power to really fuck this up for awhile because it perpetuates differently.

      1. Good god man, you are going on and on about things I have never said at all.
        Nowhere have I debased any group, or any type of look, I simply said that there are traits that are considered objectively better and some groups have those traits more so than others. This simple means Group A may have more individuals with those traits than group B. Does not mean Group B is ugly and unfit for reproduction.

        In my humble opinion, if you want people to be comfortable in their own skin, preaching ”beauty is subjective” or “everyone is beautiful” is not going to make them comfortable when they see that the REALITY around them is different. People will only be comfortable in their own skin if they accept reality, perhaps they would then endeavor towards things that can actually excel in. You say you do power lifting, you should know that a big part of success in power lifting comes from a person’s natural genetically inherited proportions that allows him to maximize the leverages required to move the most amount of iron. People who don’t have the proper leverages already have the cards stacked against them, and if they don’t accept it, they will always be playing catch up and thinking ‘what is wrong with me’.

        I understand this is a sensitive issue because of it’s history, but you already have told me that several times, I would still rather try discuss it objectively, ignoring the historical baggage.

        1. The issue is the false equivalences you tried to derive with objective metrics like 100m times.

          You are asserting it as if it is a fact that Group A has more attractive people on average than Group B. That in and of itself is an assertion that Group A has greater ability to perpetuate its genes, given physical traits are a big part of reproductive success. That is what you are saying, indirectly, whether you believe it or not.

          When people put their own group down by feeling they are uglier than another, they are admitting to themselves, all things held equal, they are inferior regarding sexual selection parameters and therefore inferior regarding ability to perpetuate their genes and exist in the future in some sense. It is a complex abstraction, but when taken to its limits, it shows a disturbing way of thinking about one’s group. Now you can think that way.

          That isn’t even the big issue. The big issue that you present it as if it is like some sort of proven fact which groups are which in the hierarchy, when it isn’t anything but your opinion at this point and nothing more.

          The disingenuous way you are trying to present your opinion as a fact and trying to put it on the same playing field as proven facts, that is what is annoying.

          The issue is not even so much you are making that assertion. The issue is that you are acting like it is a fact.
          Then you have 0 evidence to back it up. That is the biggest issue. If you just say it is your opinion and don’t draw false equivalences to 100m times then I wouldn’t say anything.
          Once again, powerlifting, another absolutely idiotic comparison. It is an objective sport. And yes leverages matter. And you can measure them with things like basic physics. And there is good data out there on it as well that directly measures proportions.

          You are either trying to strawman on purpose to redirect or you just aren’t understanding the degree of false equivalencies you rely on.
          Comparing your unvalidated beliefs to actual objective data is completely irrational.

          1. *That isn’t even the big issue. The big issue that you present it as if it is like some sort of proven fact which groups are which in the hierarchy and that a hierarchy even exists among groups, when it isn’t anything but your opinion at this point and nothing more.

            Present it like an opinion and that is fine. You have every right. But do not try to falsely equate it to objective metrics.

    2. How tall was he and how tall is/was your father? I remember you saying that you are 5’8″/173 cm in a podcast episode.

  72. dad is 5’4. my grandfather was probably taller than me. one of my dad’s brothers is 5’8, and he has a son who is 5’11, and that son is closer to my grandfather’s height.

    1. So he can validate for you that Serbs are the most beautiful and their S Asian supposed “proxies,” Jatts, are therefore the most beautiful of S Asia?

      1. This obsession of looks and genetics is a lethal combo.

        Our ancestors married left, right and centre for the sake of genetic diversity. All to spread Indra’s seed wide.

        Draupadi was a dark skinned beautiful woman.

        Arjuna’s wife Ullupi was a Naga princess, possibly a Marathi tribal woman.

        Bhima married a tribal woman from Bihar.

        Bhardwaja (a brahmin) the great benefactor of Vedic Kings married Sushela a Kshatriya woman.

        Let’s move on.

      2. I understand that he has stollen your show and that you are pissed off at him. Till now, even if you don’t care or have a sympathy for them, you should know that Serbs neither give a fcuk for anyone and anything nor ask for any recognition (especially bs) which they would not get anyway. But, the truth, they are the root cause of this discussion. If you so far did not realize (many did not) that r1a belongs to one group only, you should make an appointment with Thorishka instead of throwing around terms such as grasslands, steppe cowboys or western sheep herders. And, find some Aesthetics book (I can recommend), you may get some understanding of what you are talking.

    1. Honestly, a lot of this just goes back to the same type of thinking that makes caste what it is. It is this belief that all groups have immutable intrinsic and extrinsic qualities, barring very very few exceptions, that make them suitable for certain types of tasks and status in society.

      As much as Pakistanis and some other NW folk talk about how they aren’t Indian or nearly a different species than other Indians, they are into the most Indian concept of all and a to a high degree. It’s amusing how their desire to be something they are not ends up manifestation of exactly what they are.

      They smash mirror of their reflection. And then end up seeing themselves anyway a thousand times over in the pieces.

      Honestly, it just pigeon holes the individual and leads to a highly fragmented and stagnant society. One where human potential is wasted. No wonder S Asia is in the economic condition it is in.

      1. Nazi, Colonial racist, now casteist.. You are using all the buzz words.

        I have Punjabis, Pasthuns, Sindhi, Kashmiri, Hyderabadis, Bengalis, Delhiites, and Lucknavis in my immediate family (cousins, aunt, uncles), and 3 of my grandparents were Urdu speaking Biharis. My brother is married into a white family, I myself am married outside my ‘biradari’ whatever that is.

        And yet, I am the one who is racist, casteist, colonial nazi just because I happen to believe that more Pasthuns are good looking that Punjabis or etc? ok 😛

        1. No the issue is that you feel this is objective, intrinsic, and at the level of fact that a 100m sprint time averages differ between different people.

          That is the issue. When you behave like your opinion is as valid as ticking of time in the universe itself, when there is no empirical proof, and that opinion happens to be a racial hierarchy of looks, yes you are behaving in a manner that is Nazi and casteist. The whole premise of their racial beliefs rely on viewing their notion of race as true as 1+1=2.

        2. Your thinking parallels Nazis and casteists. They too had strong views on racial traits that they viewed as objective as the laws of nature.

          Your thinking is anti science, if you want me to be accurate without hyperbole. It is anti-science and irrational to compare your racial beauty hierarchy to 100m sprint times between different groups or leverage differences for different people contributing to better results in powerlifting.

          And I was targeting all of my comments directly at you. You share these beliefs with many people who do only marry within their own little micropopulation affiliation in S Asia. This type of thinking parallels caste like thinking quite well.

          1. wasn’t*

            You can see in the original comment I even say

            “Pakistanis and some NW…”

            Basically, I am making the point about a certain group trend I see. And that group tends to display behavior that if isn’t directly caste, sure as hell looks, smells, and acts a lot like caste

  73. You are right by drawing an analogy to food, but then if you break food down to it’s contents, you will notice that things like sugar, salt and fat are almost universally preferred by humans which is why restaurants have come up with innovative ways to make their food sell well by using lavish amounts of salt, sugar and fat. A chimpanzee will work harder if it is rewarded with a grape rather than slice of cucumber. The same could be argued for specific physical traits that are preferred universally, and some groups of humans might have those higher in number than other groups, due to a host of reasons.

    you need to read some books or papers. you keep repeating basic theories and working with anecdotes.

    but you are very subcontinental in the preference for thought experiments rather than concrete digging through the data 😉

    1. I don’t think there is enough realization in subcontinental thinking that one can use thought experiments to pretty much justify anything they want.

  74. “Secondly, once again you must have only read that on the internet about Muhajirs. In reality, many of the Muhajirs are fairer than your average middle class or rural Punjabi, probably because most of the Muhajirs belonged to affluent/high caste ancestry back in India.” S Qureshi
    This is lie, UP/biharis are not fairer or more Caucasian looking then punjabis. Looks like muhajirs don’t have problem sucking up to pashtun looks but have problem admitting that they are more AASI looking then punjabis. Its power dynamics and military operations in Karachi the reason? Likely.

    1. @Baba
      A lot of Muhajirs are mostly what you call ”Ashraf’ UP/Biharis/Hyderabadis/Gujratis.. who if not fairer are very similar to regular Punjabis from the Punjabi heartland in this map.
      https://imgur.com/a/JERU8kO
      But let’s assume we aren’t? Let’s assume we are darker, more AASI features. So what? That’s actually the impression Punjabis have who don’t have much interaction with Muhajirs. Yet they still consider us an elite group. (MQM put a dent to that image, but it still persists).

      1. Ashraf population that claim to be pathans and syeds? Thats not more then 10-15%. Are not Gujaratis mostly baniya/memon? That make them hindu converts. I doubt pathans of UP and Bihar look like ones in KP after generations of mixing. Overall % of people that look like your average upper to middle caste average north Indian is dominant look among muhajirs. Its not comparable to lets say how average arain or rajputs look in punjab. Though there are chamars in punjab that can look like north Indians on average.

        1. 1) Ashraf population is more than Pathans and Syeds

          2) Most of us are upper caste Hindu or Buddhist converts

          3) You are unnecessarily taking a comment out of context and trying to argue on how Punjabis and Muhajirs look different. To the average person in Pakistan, not really in any significant measure. There is no self realization amongst Muhajirs that we are darker in color or inferior in looks to Punjabis or Sindhis. President if Pakistan is a muhajir and so are many Cabinet ministers in PTI. Its hard to tell them apart from Punjabis until they speak. Both groups intermarriage as well.

          I am not sure what the fuss is about. Let’s assume we look different, so what? There is no inferiority complex amongst Muhajirs about it in relation to Punjabis or Sindhis.

          1. Most Pak resident doctors I have worked with are Muhajirs and Aga Khan graduates. Get along with them well. Culturally different crowd for sure than Pak Punjabis I encountered in college and high school.

          2. Highly depends on what you are comparing to. Generally Muhajirs are an urban group that emphasize higher education as opposed to conducting business (Memons are different in this regard from other Muhajirs) or farming..Punjabis are various sub groups, have many different tribes with different occupations, so quite varied in their outlook. I don’t find urban higher educated Punjabis to be any different to Muhajirs, which is why there intermarriage is common with this group and Muhajirs.
            Shout out to AKU/AKUH, I have 2 cousins and my brother in law working there, my cousins being alumni

        2. Memon (Sunni) and Khoja (Isma’ili Shia ) are Lohana converts. All Lohana originate from Sindh. A good chunk (if not most) migrated to Gujarat (Kutch and Saurashtra) after the invasion of Muhammad bin Qasim. Though, you can still find some Sindhi Memon who speak Sindhi and more rarely Hindu Lohana who still speak Sindhi.

          While technically Muhajirs, the native land of Lohana is Sindh.

          @S Qureishi

          Others may disagree but IMO upper castes from Bihar/Eastern UP (so many Muhajirs) don’t really look like rural Punjabis (where most biradaris live).

          1. I am with Quereshi on this though. Perhaps this is an outsider perspective , i cannot make a Mohajir from an urban Punjabi. Lots of them in Karachi from both ethnicities and unless the punjabi opens its mouth and speaks his broken Urdu, there is no way to know appearance wise.

          2. @Saurav

            Punjabis are not a homogeneous population either phenotypically or genetically. They span the whole South Asian genetic cline (that is what the “urban” PJL samples from Lahore illustrated quite clearly).

            See this G25 PCA:

            https://imgur.com/k7SyYw1

            Look at where a good chunk of the PJL samples (labeled PJL) and where most of the other Punjabi (Jatt, Khatri, etc) groups are.

            Razib made a post about the PJL samples before:
            https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/01/28/punjabi-genetic-variation-in-1000-genomes-hindu-caste-in-the-land-of-the-pure/

          3. I have had memon patients. Pleasant people. Spoke Gujarati with elderly ones. Didn’t know they were all from Sindh, until recently. Reminded me of my grandparents. They spoke kathiawari Gujarati like my mother’s side

            @Q

            I don’t know background of Pak Punjabis I have met. But they seemed culturally different. But I got along well with them too. Only the internet seems to bring out clowns.

            Good overall civil discourse yesterday. It stayed largely impersonal. Generally, I have noticed that stuff can descend into craziness.

          4. There is difference between upper caste Hindu and Muslim convert average look compared to Birdari populations. But the overlap is big enough that only on extremes could people be able to tell for sure. Most people are just some sort of ambiguous enough look.

            Like I am Gujarati. I don’t think you can just know that for sure by looking at me. I pass in places East, West, North, and South of Gujarat fine and get asked if I am from India, Pak, and Bangladesh before. A lot of people have generic look like me.

          5. I have some Hindu Lohana family. Gujarati Vania and Hindu Lohana marriages are not uncommon likely 2/2 business community. Same with Vania Marwari

          6. @paindu

            If normal people cannot tell them apart without looking at dressing, haircut and facial hair, then to me the differences are marginal. I know people here are obsessed about discussing looks, caste, skin color.. I have not yet encountered this generally in Pakistan to this level that people discuss here. perhaps because caste and skin color don’t play that big of a role in the country’s politics, tribal and spiritual affiliations most certainly do.
            I think it’s because caste is very big in India and people are proud of it, I recently met an acquaintance – Indian Sikh – who mentioned his ancestors lived in Multan.. I asked an innocent and completely justified question ”oh are you guys Seraiki” and he was so offended and denied it right away, insisting they were Jatts. He didn’t speak to me rest of the evening. I found that very fascinating, something like this I have not yet encountered in Pakistan..

            Memons idenitfy as Muhajirs politically in Pakistan, although there are certain Sindhi memons as well (I know a few) who idenitfy as Sindhi.

          7. @Qureishi
            I specifically pointed out rural Punjab for a reason. Punjabis span the entire South Asian genetic cline (see my post above) and this applies to phenotype as well.

            On a separate note, have you have ever visited rural Pakistani Punjab pinds? Biradari and or caste may not play as much of a role in Pakistan (especially urban areas) as it does in India but it’s not as if it has no role. With regards to the Sikh you met, that’s an unfortunate reaction but did you ever get a chance to explain to him Seraiki is a Punjabi dialect and not a social group/caste?

          8. @Paindu

            I should have been clearer. I meant Pakistani urban punjabis and Mohajirs. Not sikh and Hindu punjabis vis-v UP/Bihar. The latter do ‘look’ different.

            My mom used to watch a lot of Pak tele dramas and I had a hard time differentiating Mohajir actors from Punjabi ones, if their urdu diction was similar. Similar experience with my go-to Pakistani restaurant where folks working there i assumed to be Mohajirs/Sindhis since they were from Karachi. But they were actually Punjabis with perfect urdu , since they grew up in Karachi, and can’t speak punjabi

          9. @saurav

            yes you are right, Urdu accent is one way to distinguish between the ethnicities.. But even this way does not always work, especially in Karachi where Sindhis and Punjabis speak fluent Urdu in general Karachi accent. I have never been able to tell them apart in Karachi just by Urdu alone. There are other dressing cues.. I was in Karachi couple of months back, and I had grown a longer moustache with my beard, and was oaming around in my bright white Shalwar Kameez, most people thought I was Sindhi, even though I spoke fluent Urdu. Vice versa, there were many Sindhis we didn’t even know were Sindhis until they start to speak each other in Sindhi.

            People from other areas of the country, you can tell based on accent.

          10. @Saurav
            Fair enough and that makes sense. However, I do think rural Pak Punjabis look quite similar on average to their Sikh/Hindu counterparts.

            Though, I’ve seen others sometimes treat Punjabis (100 million people) as a homogeneous population. Also, AFAIK, Sindhis are a minority population in Karachi (less than Muhajirs, Pashtuns and Punjabis).

          11. Though i would not say that skin color does not matter in Pakistan though. Perhaps in India the degree is higher, since there are far more ethnicities than Pakistan , and more diversity in skin/facial tones, so more thing to pick up on.

            But its there in Pakistani cultural milieu and all.

          12. @Q

            That is just diaspora Jatt Sikh Canadian behavior from what I hear. They are quite caste conscious. I am assuming that is who you mean. Areligous supremacist types are often very much like this

          13. yeah. Rural ones tend to look diff but there is still overlap for sure. People have occassionally asked me if I am Punjabi, but I think I’d pass as urban type largely.

  75. Yeah, I don’t think @S Qureishi is being racist at all.

    If he was saying that Pashtuns are attractive because they tend to have very thin, prominent noses and on average have skin pigmentation typical of Iranian plateau populations (with a noticeable minority of adult male blonds and redheads)… then yes, that’s definitely “racist”, because he’d be saying that Pashtuns are attractive because they’re a West Eurasian population.

    Someone like Apthk can be accused of that, because he thinks that Hindu Jats look better than other Indians because they’re a West Eurasian population.

    ^ But if I’m understanding S Qureishi correctly, he’s not talking about fair skin or whatnot. He’s saying that Pashtuns, in his experience, are often strikingly clear-skinned, symmetrical faced, deep-jawed, and strongly built… all despite being dirt poor. He’s saying they look good, despite not giving any attention to how they look.

    ^ Those aren’t very “racial” standards for attractiveness (clear skin, symmetrical faces, strong jawlines, and strong physiques occur in every human population), unlike say skin color or nasal form.

    Speaking strictly from my own personal experiences, I agree with him. I’ve seen countless number of these people in person… and I have my own family for reference. (Lol)

    But again, PERSONAL experiences… my own SUBJECTIVE opinion. Not stating these as facts.

    I won’t say more, because me talking about this makes me seem like a real chauvinistic and arrogant dick, since I’m talking about people of my own ethnic background.

    S Qureishi isn’t a Pashtun, so it’s not like he’s trying to prove anything. So I’ll leave this between him and others.

    But anyway guys, it’s a pretty dumb conversation, even by the standards to which we’ve grown accustomed at this blog.

    I think it’s time we all try to aim for a more interesting and conceptually edifying form of discourse. Unfortunately, I know that I’ve contributed to the current malaise by often talking about phenotype and genetics.

    And I apologize for that… and I’d enjoy my own involvement in a collective attempt to talk about more serious topics. We need some fresh subjects here, beyond the endless phenotype conversations.

    1. I think you are misconstruing my argument. The whole reason your comment isn’t racist is because you admit it is subjective and your opinion.

      Q acts like his belief is as objective as a 100m sprint time differences. He is basically saying there is not only an objective racial hierarchy of looks but his hierarchy is the correct one. That is quite similar to how racists think.

      1. Let’s End this argument bro. I admit my opinion on looks is ‘subjective’.. (ignoring that billions of people have the same opinion :p )

        1. you’re not a clear thinker. billions of ppl do agree that certain things are true in terms of what is or isn’t attractive. but almost no one knows who/what pathans are, or if there are differences between pathans and non-pathans in pakistan.

          1. I did not want to get into this argument in the first place, you wanted me to cite material, I could have looked it up in my replies to @warlock, because as @Milan Todorovic outlined above, there is a LOT of material online on this subject, I read those years ago so I know that it exists but I don’t want to bother getting into that stuff again. My opinion is shared by most Pakistanis, Indians, and Bangladeshis. We are not talking about their opinion on cosmology that numbers don’t matter here, we are talking about their own opinions on their own preferences. Perhaps this is due to fair skin or whatever the marker, I personally was not referring to that, but as @Commentator/Seinundzeit said, this is based on anecdotal. Also, the argument I was making is that there are physical traits that are objectively considered attractive and some groups, either because of their social standing, or because of their genetic inheritance (or both) do have more of those traits than some other groups. That’s the only thing I have said with conviction. Make of that what you will.

  76. This is lie, UP/biharis are not fairer or more Caucasian looking then punjabis.

    lol. themz fighting words on this blog!

    “we the most caucasionally endowed!”

    “naw kala, we are.”

    “uh, no, we so fair!, we so fair!”

    really cringe shit 😉

  77. 15 years from now china will be launching it’s “mission to mars”

    meanwhile, the most advanced pharmaceutical companies in india will be racing to launch a product called “brown no more”, a single application of which turns brown people white.

    #civilizationalAccomplishments

      1. ISRO needs more funding for that. Mars isn’t the moon.

        India needs to industrialize and learn from Bangladesh and get more FDI for jobs for the poor

        1. @thewarlock

          India needs to industrialize and learn from Bangladesh and get more FDI for jobs for the poor

          this kind of pedagogic, prescriptional bullshit is what leftists excel at. The real world stats on economic complexity, migration and innovation islands show a completely picture on who is the Guru and who is the Shishya.

  78. if a subcontinental person had to be very dark-skinned for the rest of their life and could explore mars and be put into the history books

    OR

    be very white-skinned

    what do you think they’d pick? 😉

    1. @Razib Khan
      I think almost every Indian guy would pick the former. Not saying that most don’t see being fair as a positive trait but nowhere near being recorded in history books. Cant say about women as they are on general more looks obsessed (throughout the world)

  79. I do accept all responsibility for the above confusion and misunderstandings. Not only because We are always designated scapegoats then because we really made a problem in the first instance….And all this because, on the way to Amarillo, we missed this exit after Albuquerque and continued until we hit Himalayas….

    And the paradox (let’s use the name in scientific literature as – Khanishka’s paradox) is that SAsians try hard to look like their ancestors but in the same time they are ashamed and don’t have respect for them.

  80. All of this skin tone talk is just pure atavistic drivel, when both skin tone and eye colour of one’s kids can be literally bought with money in 2020. And the whole facial features thing is nothing more than a problem solvable by technology and with a high chance of being commoditized well within our life times.

  81. Another explanation for the meaning of “Rig” in “RigVeda”:


    In fact the “RigVeda” takes its name from these verses: the Sanskrit word for “verse”
    is r̥c; when compounded with the word for knowledge, it yields
    r̥g-veda, literally “knowledge/wisdom (consisting of) verses.”

    @milan you might find this interesting.

    @slapstick would love to hear your comments about this

  82. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/10/30/hindu-nationalism-election-indian-american-voters-433608

    How Hindu Nationalism Could Shape the Election
    Some activists and donors are trying to use the Hindutva ideology as a wedge issue to attract Indian American voters to the GOP—and to pressure Indian American politicians.

    “Indian American politicians, in turn, are left to grapple with how their heritage can both attract and alienate their own ethnic and religious communities. Sometimes, a politician’s own Indian or Hindu identity is not seen as enough to prove sufficient support for Hinduism or India. ”

    All or Nothing

  83. The anxiety @thewarlock expresses repeatedly is strange, given that most notable Indians whether in the fields of science (all our Nobel winners), engineering (Visvesaraya, Kalam), business (Nadella, Pichai, Ambanis etc), music (Kishore Kumar, Rahman, Rafi) and sport (Laxman, Jadeja, P.T. Usha) are quite non-steppe looking. Even the lighter skinned notable Indians like Tendulkar, Mangeshkar and Kohli will not be usually mistaken for Pashtuns etc. (I know there will be some disagreement on Kohli, but please dont spam.)

    The only area in which steppe-looking people are visible is cinema, and even there folks like SRK and Bachchan dont look steppe. Even Dilip Kumar, who I believe is of Pashtun origin, doesnt really match the description that folks have provided. So really, it is the female leads where steppe-appearance is very heavily valued. But even here, this is restricted to item song type actresses, with the actual female leads like Rani, Kajol, Padukone and Nutan looking nothing like the Pashtun descriptions.

    This makes sense, most of us dont look like Pashtuns etc, so our achievers would not look like them.

    It appears that this anxiety is higher in Indian-Americans whose primary exposure to India is via cinema, where they see steppe-heavy actors prominently, and this gets connected to America’s traditional racial hierarchy in some way.

  84. Let me state my argument more succinctly.

    Indians do realize and acknowledge that they are a multi-racial people. There is little anxiety about this, and nobody (apart from a small minority) is very keen to preserve their ‘genetics’. Inter caste marriage is a matter of tradition, not racial consciousness.

    1. @Vikram
      I think people are misconstruing the crux of what I am saying. Anxiety? I am just pointing out issues with the general S Asian brainwashed multi layered perception among the darker and less caucasoid populations that they are some how physically inferior to the lighter and more caucasoid ones. Them saying stuff like “But we are smarter. We are just as valuable. etc.” still doesn’t change that fact. From an American perspective this comes off as weird. I suppose I may have been raised differently. I didn’t even realize the depth of this belief in the S Asian psysche. And I do think part of it can be blamed on caste.

      The other issue I had is that some people were presenting this opinion as if it is a fact and some sort of natural law by drawing some false equivalencies to highly objective and empirically proven phenomena, using thought.experiments, when asked for data and then claiming “it exists on the internet…,” when pressed harder. What they don’t get is that there are enough anecdotes and sets of intuitive reasoning that say even the opposite of what they are saying. So their opinion is just that, nothing more. That’s my issue. It is a critique about the odd deference to more light skinned and west eurasian looks I see among much of the subcontinental populace AND the general notion of attempting to present a racial hierarchy of looks as anything more than subjective, with all the arguments being thought experiments and appeals to popularity rather than anything empriic yet at the same time trying to draw parallels to highly empirically proven and objective phenomena.

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