155 Replies to “Open Thread – 10/03/2020”

  1. COVID is boring. I’d like to continue on the thread that Bhimrao started by discussing drones and the future of warfare:

    Not an expert, but it seems clear that future of war not involving any western power directly would be drones. Azeri drones are to Armenian armor what Babur’s cannons were to Indian Elephants. The age of tank warfare in contested airspace just came to a close. Now people have to figure out how to make thrusts without armor.
    You guys should check out the aerial footages of how helpless Armenian tanks look in their final moments before being kaputz.
    Also worrying is the fate of India’s vast inventory of armor, hopefully someone is taking note, in war it will all go up in flames.

    A lot of these drones that the Azeris use come from Turkey, and Turkey has invested a lot in drone warfare. When the Syrian army was close to capturing the Jihadist outpost of Idlib last year, where Turkey sponsors many of the islamist fanatics, the massive destruction brought upon the tanks and armor of the Syrian army by these drones was incredible.

    Armenia does have Pantsir and S300 but it doesn’t seem to make them much good. ‘Suicide drones’ also seem to be effective. Is having a big drone swarm the land equivalent of having a aircraft carrier at sea?

    The only weakness seems to be that many of them are quite slow. The drones of the azeris only fly at ~250 mp/h, which means they would lose a straight-line race against a 1930s biplane. So why are missiles ineffectual? Quality vs quantity. Or as Stalin put it: quantity is a quality in of itself.

    The Vietnamese have put tons of servo-engined legacy AA-cannons on trucks with EO-sensors. According to local media it’s a cheap upgrade but very effective against UAVs.

    I think a lot of anti-AA is still implicitly geared towards big, expensive jets. But it is clear that such a model is rapidly losing relevance, at least for low-tech conflicts between poor countries like Syrian civil war or Armenia vs Azerbaijan. And it is these conflicts where there is a tangible chance for bloodshed. High-tech, high-stakes conflicts between major powers are unlikely since WMDs useage is a major deterrent.

    1. Drones are just poor men’s toys. When the EW gear is active, they will go down like moths. Armenia, Azeri and Turkey are all third rate players – they can have their fun. But do not extrapolate too much. Perhaps real damage can be delivered by a drone without a human in the loop. That’s still two decades away and out of reach of most nations.

      A very comprehensive EW system looks like this and this is from a decade ago. Newer ones have higher reach.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samyukta_Electronic_Warfare_System

      1. @Ugra what do you think about Boom supersonic and Otto Aviation in the discussion below on this thread? Do you think these are money-bonfires like so many others that people organize every few years or are they following the footsteps of Elon dada?

      2. I hope you are right. But given our strategic history and lack of evidence for EW taking out drones I would be prepared. And relying on DRDO is not my idea of preparation. Defense equipment is too serious of a matter to be left to DRDO.

        1. It’s very good that you do what you currently do. And am very glad that Indian Strat-culture isn’t running to you for wisdom.

          1. If i may ask , do u either work or have family in DRDO community? I have folks who work in HAL and even they don’t rate/defend them that much. Just my view.

          2. @Saurav

            I also run some arguments on online forums for Tesla and the future of EVs against ICE monkeys. Should someone from my family also work at Tesla?

            Generally the awareness and technical comprehension of aerospace, defence matters within India (and definitely at BP) is very feeble. Most of it comes from reading Indian media (print and TV) who do not have STEM backgrounds.

            I will start running some commentary to create awareness.

    2. This is no longer a fight, it is a massacre. Tanks are being popped like soda bottles by tiny drones.

      Do the small low flying ones even show up on radars? I don’t think they can survive after being engaged by an AA battery. It seems to be a quantity issue. Even if we put automated AA turrets on top of tanks but still no(non-radar) power in seven heavens can stop a beyond line of sight missile coming in at supersonic speed. You just can’t shoot those things unless you see them from far out. The only way out is cheaper fighter jet like radars on any tank that will operate independently out of solid AA cover. I don’t know how good EO sensors are in a defensive role against maneuvering targets.

      Another thing I suspect is the reason is the Russian equipment which almost always lets down.

      1. @Bhimrao

        Only noobs fight like that, trying to shoot down drones. Professionals jam the drone and make it blind. They all use terrestrial transmission of TV signals. Only a few use satcoms, but they are quite big and also easily jammed or tracked. In our latest systems, Himshakti and Hemraj, there are even hijack modes built in. Nothing is gonna fly within a square that is 100 Kms by 100 Kms. They even disrupt GPS guided munitions.

        You are watching a game of gully cricket. Believe me, professionals play it differently.

    3. I am probably out of my depth here since I don’t follow defence related developments much but wanted to ask the knowledgeable folks about Electro Magnetic Pulses (EMPs).

      Are they an attack vector actively being explored?

      Solar flares have been an existential worry for a while. And I know Elliott Management is one the investment firms that’s deeply worried about it.

      1. Hey Prats Check this out:
        https://niradynamics.se/vehicle-onboard-analytics/

        look at their entire website they are using the same trick for a lot of different ends. Basically they are using the wheel speed sensor to get at things like loose wheel, road condition etc. I think this is easy enough to do, it is a low hanging fruit that others have not thought about. This might even be used in a railway wheel to assess the quality of the track and such things. In automobiles this might be a good idea to put your foot through the door in automotive sensing and perception.

        1. Seems interesting. There’s a whole host of startups that’s doing vehicle analytics these days (ZenDrive, Ola Fleet Tech etc). Certainly seems a market worth exploring.

  2. How long does it take to make a supersonic jet? An American start-up with just 140 employees made one in the span of 6 years, the rollout is in the coming week.
    https://boomsupersonic.com/overture

    This is what a true high-human capital society can achieve with enough invested time. Now HAL on the other hand with 1000s of staff…looking at it just makes me sad.

    1. These guys have Y-Combinator behind them for money and vision. Also they have Burt Rutan and Scaled composites behind them, these guys can make a pig fly like drogon.

      This is what the big boys are up to:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_X-59_QueSST

      Most HAL employees are ………… but then so are our teachers, our IT people, our administrators. It is a sad story everywhere in India.

      Making the plane is easy, figuring out the economics of operating them is difficult. Look at the fate of Piaggio Avanti and Beech Starship, people love swanky new planes, no-one is willing to pay for them.

      If I was gambling on a new company I would invest in this
      https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/otto-aviation-celera-500l-31-flights/
      Practical, efficient, cheap (piston-engine) and fast. The engine is revolutionary.
      I might be wrong, some of the specs are too good to be true maybe @Ugra or some other aero people can comment on this.

  3. Razib,
    Urban centers maybe peaking – we really don’t know about hinterlands.

    My city Pune has still daily 50+ deaths and 1000+ new cases and case positivity rate of 20+% for population of 2 million (PMC limits not Pune District .
    It sure has flattened but we don’t know how long the plateau will be.

    Last week my collegues and me had a shock when my colleague aged 39 with no known comorbidities passed away due to Covid. His wife who had diabetes recovered in 3-4 days while he passed away after 30days despite getting admitted on day 3 of symptoms. That brings the personal contacts to pass away to 4.

    As you rightly said India is a Country of many states which have their own epidemics. So won’t be right to comment on India as whole – I bet Pune-Mumbai might be out by end of year.

    Razib what’s your take on how Japan is doing so very well ? Despite no lockdown.
    And does Sweden seems to have proven its critics wrong ?

    1. Razib what’s your take on how Japan is doing so very well ? Despite no lockdown.
      And does Sweden seems to have proven its critics wrong ?

      both these nations are defined by strong social conformity to rules.

  4. https://newbooksnetwork.com/alan-brill-rabbi-on-the-ganges-a-jewish-hindu-encounter-lexington-2019/

    How do Judaism and Hinduism compare as religions? Beyond the academic merits of comparative religion, what can adherents to one of these faiths gain by learning about the other?

    Alan Brill’s new book Rabbi on the Ganges: A Jewish-Hindu Encounter (Lexington Books, 2019) is the first work to engage the new terrain of Hindu-Jewish religious encounter. The book offers understanding into points of contact between the two religions of Hinduism and Judaism. Providing an important comparative account, the work illuminates key ideas and practices within the traditions, surfacing commonalities between the jnana and Torah study, karmakanda and Jewish ritual, and between the different Hindu philosophic schools and Jewish thought and mysticism, along with meditation and the life of prayer and Kabbalah and creating dialogue around ritual, mediation, worship, and dietary restrictions. The goal of the book is not only to unfold the content of these faith traditions but also to create a religious encounter marked by mutual and reciprocal understanding and openness.

  5. Cont. from the thread “Rape Culture, Indian Edition…” (Google translated)

    Pittar Eugine “Les races et l’histoire” (1924) (Introductionn ethnologique a l’histoire) Bibl. L’evolution de l’humanite, La Renaissance du Livre p. 270 and 271.

    Here is what anthropologist Pittar tells us in the previous text:

    “..… The south-west coast of Norway and the north-east coast of Scotland are inhabited by people of the same race. … It is certain that these people represent a significant percentage of the total mass (population)… These people whom Gray considers to be members of the Dinaric race make a strange exception. If they really belong to that beautiful human group whose main seat today is the east coast of the Adriatic Sea, one should know how the separation that we find today came about. And immediately the question arises, what was the original residence of this race?

    We are still very ignorant of the anthropological character of the oldest population of the Balkan Peninsula, so that we can try to imagine both the time and the exact place of appearance of these brachycephalic (people) of high stature ”.

    Pittar goes on to write that, thanks to the latest research, the movements of these Dinars can be tracked through Venice and Central Europe. In his opinion, their path was found from the Bronze Age, and that path went through Germany and through Sleswig all the way to Sweden and Norway. And another group crossed the Calais at the same time, settling the British Isles. Little by little, it occupied the northeast of Scotland as well…

    1. Thanks to Thorishka, who initiated couple previous comments which, although in European context, are giant steps to also explain some important things in SA history. I congratulate all pundits for stepping ahead of the global crowd.

      We will use English word LAND to illustrate the previous. There are thousands of other examples, some of them will be soon illustrated here.

      This actually will explains the ‘mysterious’ link between Sanskrit and 3000+ years younger English language.

      In Serbian language, the modern word LED is Ice (eng). A derivative of LED is LEDINA (=big ice) which now means ‘meadow’ or ‘wasteland’ or empty land which was not for years used for agriculture. The origin of the word ICE comes from people who remember Ice Age at least 9500 years ago when the southern border of the Ice region was around Czechoslovakia. LED originally meant – glacial border. This word, with nasal pronunciation, is LE(N)D, i.e. LAND. Some nations who much later also took the Serbian word ‘Ledina’ with nasal pronunciation (e.g. Albanians) have in their language ‘Lendina’.

      In brief, Proto-Germanic originated from Serbian language. This also explains similarities between English and Sanskrit. English word LAND (phonetic – ‘lend’) comes from Serbian word LED.

  6. stupid indians on twitter think i’m obsesed with “NW indians.”

    one thing running this weblog and engaging with hindu twitter is that indians are as narcissistic and self-absorbed as americans. tldr: unless you are weird, if you grow up in the states we’re all brown!!!

    1. I think they tend to be, as a whole, more obsessed with genetics, specifically proving the greatest possible affinity to Western populations, compared to others, that too not for any academic reason. It comes down to racialism.

      Because you’re a geneticist, the end result is that they engage more with you. You respond. And then people say you are obsessed.

      I mean I got into this stuff just because I had curiosity about further exploring my DNAkit results. I myself didn’t choose to go down rabbit holes over and over again with the same Birdari troll gangs who live in a narrative first, facts second world. And I can let it go for a bit but eventually it comes to the point where I confront their lies. Sometimes I get rational arguments back, and it is good. I even learn a thing or two. But often it is fallacy after fallacy that depends into ad hominem. Granted, I’ve my share of fun with that as well. But that’s only after the argument is dragged into the mud. Then it’s no rules.

    2. Razib I have interacted with the guy he is a punjabi Khatri not a pahadi he says that the Mauryan and Guptas were from the nw when I asked for proof he didn’t provide any proof claimed I was jealous of the nw and blocked me he is not a pahadi but a typical arrogant punjabi.

  7. this person was form himachel pradesh fwiw. they were convinced i was biased against “NW indians”

    what the fuck does that even mean? they don’t get tha tin the USA we don’t think much in these terms (with exceptions).

    i am more sensitive about combing south indians and bengalis with ppl form the NW mostly because the latter get incredibly offended and think i’m trying to make bengalis/south indians seem more racially superior by combining tem with NWerners. it’s pretty strange actually…but i have learned to expect it. but facts are what they are. mostly until you get to pathans we’re not THAT different

    1. Yeah racial hierarchy is a very big deal to them. You have more racial “realists” among them because more of them (still a minority) superficially pass in other places and don’t want the negative social rep associated with the rest of us browns.

      1. Go to quora you will find these racial hierarchy with answers posting selected pictures of fair women and muscular men. Based on those pics they claim belong to a group higher in the hierarchy.
        Most answers try to find some remote connection to myth and genetics.

        1. basically what i see are photos of hritikh roshan, and then some underfed peasant from bengal or tamil nadu. it’s really bizarre

          basically NW => everyone else racist
          south/bengal => nw classist

          that’s a caricature, but i think it gets at the reality. in their hearts ppl in the south and east agree ppl in the NW are more beautiful (look at local cinema and who exports who). and ppl in the n/nw agree that south and east (well, mostly south perhaps) are more developed/cultured.

          punjab is different because it’s well off. but the stereotypes of punjabis seem to be like those of ugly americans.

          in the early 2000s on gnxp punjabi commenter would write extensively how ugly and inferior people in the south and east were. but that was pretty boring stuff. what was really interesting is that this person asserted (in the early 2000s!) that the cities of punjab are as clean and developed as the cities of europe. their assertion was that higher west eurasian ancestry => more advanced. cue to a discussion of kerala and bangalore etc…awkward.

          1. 😀 Yeah, you have pretty much covered what I encountered on quora one day when I went down a rabbit hole of these racial stereotypes in India.

            Thats the typical template used in these quora answers: pictures of Hrithik Roshan’sque people vs pictures of malnourished people.

          2. @Razib

            The irony is that Hrithik has a Bengali paternal grandmother. His father and uncle look Bengali Brahmin-esque for a reason. Reminds me of the Jewish baby propaganda poster used by the Nazis. #HypodescentFTW

    2. Razib I also interacted with him he claimed the Mauryan and Guptas were from the nw I asked for proof he didn’t give any claimed I was jealous of the nw and blocked me he isn’t Himachali he said he is a punjabi Khatri so not a pahadi just a typical arrogant punjabi.

  8. RE: The war in the Caucasus is not accidental, Europe is the next! Who is behind the conflict! (Google translated)

    The clashes between Azerbaijan and Armenia continue every day, the Armenian forces are currently controlling the airspace of the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh and shooting down planes and helicopters of the Azerbaijani army.

    Arcrun Oganisyan, a representative of the Minister of Defense of Armenia, announced that Azerbaijan used spruces to bomb Hadrut.

    Although they did not commit themselves to the cluster bomb contract, the use of these missiles is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and the law on the protection of civilians during the war.

    Turkey is the only country, for now, that has directly sided with one of the participants in this war and actively sent its planes to the war.

    Political analyst Dzevad Galijasevic, who specializes in world events, reveals everything about the background of the conflict between these two countries and which great power has the greatest interest.

    – Turkey has been in jihad for a whole decade, in the way Erdogan understands that institute of the Islamic faith. This means that just as he killed the Muslim poor in Egypt, Libya, Syria and Iraq, he is now killing in Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia. Erdogan started the Arab Spring and created DAES with the help of Qatar, and now he continues to use that instrument in the Caucasus. Let Europe prepare for the consequences of all this that is happening now.

    – Erdogan is not prevented by the resolutions of the Western governments on the genocide that Ottoman Turkey committed against Rameni in the last century, and what can prevent him from attacking France or Germany with terrorists in the future, he is a powerful player.

    – Nagorno Karabakh is a hundred-year-old problem, since 1915 and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there has been a problem around this area. Azerbaijan is three times more numerous and ten times financially stronger and more armed. Armenia defends population from ISLAMIC STORM, Azerbaijanis want to conquer the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh because they want an area without people and to expel Armenians forever.

    – Armenia is motivated to defend itself, they have the advantage, because Erdogan’s terrorists from Aleppo and Azerbaijanis do not have that kind of will.

    -Although weaker in terms of technique and modernity of weapons, the Armenian army is a more ready and better organized, more motivated army. Armenians are an awkward opponent in that part of the world and are capable of defending and resisting aggressive Turkish plans in the Caucasus.

    – Erdogan wants to prove to the world that Nagorno-Karabakh is a Turkish courtyard, not a Russian yard.

    “Russia has been silent and inadequate since the conflict began, they have introduced some diplomatic measures, and such behavior in the midst of the war does not achieve much.”

  9. RE: Tensions in the Himalayas: Why China is moving its bombers closer to India

    The Chinese army command deployed several N-6 bombers closer to India. Beijing continues to put pressure on New Delhi, while India will not withdraw and is preparing Su-30 fighters and the French “Rafale”. The Chinese ambassador to New Delhi stated that Beijing is committed to the agreement on de-escalation that was reached during the negotiations in Moscow.

    Information on the flights of Chinese planes to possible battlefields is based on photo and video material published by the regional command of the People’s Liberation Army of China. The American magazine “Military Watch Magazine” claims that N-6 can provide an advantage to the Chinese army in case of a conflict in the mountainous region of Ladak.

    China has 720 planes of that type, but most of them are located at airports on the coast, ie where the navy and the air force of America and its allies are active. And in the Himalayas, both in China and India, there are few military air bases, so these bombers are abruptly changing the balance of power in favour of Beijing.

    Vasily Kashin, a research associate at the Institute for the Far East of the Russian Academy of Sciences, said that “the N-6 is a long-range bomber made by the Chinese on the basis of an old Soviet Tu-16 plane, but they remodeled it and put a new Russian-made engine.” Thanks to these changes, the N-6 increased its range. The plane has new electronics and can carry six cruise missiles. The missiles are made on the basis of Soviet X-55 missiles, which the Chinese managed to procure in Ukraine in the early 2000s, “and copy them.”

    The bomber does not have to be in Tibet to attack India. It has a radius of more than three thousand kilometers, while rockets fly at two thousand kilometers. If they were transferred to Tibet or South Xinjiang, then it was primarily done as part of an exercise in high altitude conditions or for the purpose of demonstrating force, Kashin explained.

    As for the Su-30 and the French “Rafala”, they are the most modern Indian planes that can be used in the event of an attack, the expert concluded.

    However, China is not just preparing for air warfare. According to the Reuters agency, Chinese soldiers are stretching optical cables to their positions near Lake Pangon, where there was a conflict between the two armies. A senior Indian official told the paper that fiber optic cables would provide a quality connection, while the Indian military uses a radio link.

    If the statements of the western and Indian media are summarized, it is concluded that the atmosphere at the border is warming up.

    Chinese state television “CGTN” states that at the beginning of September, the foreign ministers of China and India, Wang Yi and Subramanyam Jaishankar, reached an agreement at a conference in Moscow on the separation of troops and the reduction of tensions. According to the agreement, the disbandment of the troops should be “as soon as possible”. Soldiers must be in communication, but keep their distance.

    Wang underlined that it was time to stand in the way of provocations, such as shelling and breach of commitments. Jaishankar said that India is ready to talk to China on the border issue. It is important that this issue does not affect the cooperation of forces in other fields.

    1. true. My mother always wanted to. But my father was against it. He said he “didn’t want to raise someone else’s child.”

    2. Not true at all! my cousin (divorcee) sister was on the wait list for 5 years before getting a baby girl. Two people from my (Indian hometown) neighborhood adopted baby girls after a lot of effort, neither say it openly but everyone knows. Indians are a very private and sensitive people when it comes to these things, that’s why people don’t hear about it but a lot of adoption under very strict government oversight (even in C rung cities like Jhansi, Gwalior etc) does take place. Maybe not telling everyone is because there are gross insults like banjh(infertile), napunsak(impotent) that get used.

      At the same time there are so many people (almost 50% even well off prople in my parent’s generation) who I’ve seen express mild sadness at the birth of a daughter. All adoptions I have ever seen were of baby girls.

      Female foeticide like caste (reading about Hathras rape has fucked me up) shows us the real ‘aukat’ of Indians (especially our Caucasian jats).

  10. in doing research yesterday on sunny leonne i found out she and her husband adopted a little girl from maharashtra.

    she’s a good person. the rest is commentary

    1. I dunno man…she debases herself before online audiences, she can’t really be called “good.”

      Complex, perhaps.

      1. How is she NOT a good person just because she was a pornstar? How does her doing porn negatively affect you or any other person in any manner?

  11. Yes; Adopting is still not considered mainstream – a lot of ppl I know who aren’t able to have a baby but haven’t considered adopting –
    Not wanting to raise someone else’s blood – they say.

    At the same time there are so many people (almost 50% even well off prople in my parent’s generation) who I’ve seen express mild sadness at the birth of a daughter. All adoptions I have ever seen were of baby girls.

    But I hope these things r reducing in the population – at least in anecdotes they are reducing around me – hope thats representative of the population – though i did hear special congratulations recently on having a baby boy from outside family – dont know that would be same when its a baby girl

  12. “dont know that would be same when its a baby girl”

    I think it would be more prevalent for girls as boys are supposed to “continue the legacy of the family” and it would defeat the purpose of it to give this responsibility to an adopted child.

  13. The recent Dalit girl rape case and death led folks here believe that all rape cases are equal.
    And even then I did say that since the accused are thakurs we will see “law taking its own course” rather than the recent spat of encounter killings of accused. The central govt even had to lean on the state govt to make some symbolic moves against the accused and the police, lest it’s totally loses the plot.

    https://theprint.in/politics/how-bjp-high-command-stepped-in-to-ask-yogi-govt-to-amend-its-clumsy-strategy-in-hathras-case/516169/?amp

    The hindutva movement is at crossroad, does it really believe that all Hindus are equal. While the opposition sees a chink in the hindu armor, though I doubt they either have the requisite “hindu” quotient or the understanding to exploit the situation.

    1. The hindutva movement is at crossroad, does it really believe that all Hindus are equal.

      Abhinav Prakash makes a point in saying that the Hindutva project was anti-caste from the beginning. Certainly Savarkar’s views on caste were very radical for his time. This makes intuitive sense: how are you going to unite Hindus if you simultaneously uphold a rigid caste structure?

      There might be individual cases within the BJP and the larger Hindutva project who nurture casteist views – just as there will be left-wing misogynists, sexists or rapists despite their official rhetoric – but that doesn’t change the overall orientation of the broader movement, IMO.

    2. most Hindutuva is anti caste oppression IMO but too of their allies and powerful friends are casteist. In India, winning alone is hard. You have to be friends with some bad guys and let them do bad shit to a limit. This is not the case. This is too evil. So they should do something

    3. i am the one who said that hathras case will culminate in an “encounter”. looks like i must eat crow and admit i have been proved wrong.

      may be caste is unusually strong in UP. may be i am losing my touch with the pulse of the country after spending too many years outside the country. may be i am turning a diaspora desi who just doesn’t get india! be it as it may be, but evidently the caste clout of rural thakurs has beaten off the blood-lust of urban media.

      anyway, the bungling by bisht’s government in astonishing. the visuals of cops locking up the victim’s family in the house and burning the corpse at mid night is mind bogglingly unbelievable. but india is not india if it doesn’t surprises you every now and then.

      1. “and burning the corpse at mid nigh. mind bogglingly unbelievable.” — @Scorpion Eater, well, the UP govt. submitted an affadavit to the Supreme Court where they claimed that the cremation was done late night based on intel inputs that trouble was brewing in the area as vested interests were trying to exploit the incident and create violence, their claim is that they took the decision to avoid large scale violence the next morning. The govt. also asked for CBI enquiry monitored by Supreme Court.

        If i am not wrong,this happened in last year’s Kamlesh Tiwari’s killing too where his body was cremated in a hurry.

  14. Not about genetics of Jaats, please don’t delete.

    One of the common theme in Jat land wiki (yes there’s something called jat land Wiki) is the claim that Nagasaki are descendents of Nagas. I was wondering if Jat brothers on this blog can explain the connection?

    Takshak was a Naga king in Kandhava forest (burned by Pandavas). Essentially around present day Madhya Pradesh, Northern Maharashtra.

    If it’s anybody who can claim to be descendants of the mythical Nagas it’s the people from Maharashtra Ann South of the Vindhyas.

    Ex: Jat land Naga claim:

    https://www.jatland.com/home/Nagavansh

    There are populations in South in Karnataka and Kerala that claim to be descendants of “Nagas”. For all their ubiquitous presence in epics of India, there’s hardly any information about Nagas (or I could not find it)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagavanshi

    Does anyone have more info about the Nagas mentioned in Mahabharata? Examples of Nagas: Arjuna’s wife Ulupi, Takshak who kills Parakshith

    1. “the claim that Nagasaki are descendents of Nagas”

      Typo above, read as:

      “the claim that Jats are descendents of Nagas”

    2. Nagas are presented as mythic beings. Could simply be a process of integrating communities into mainstream society (hey look our stories have you ancestors so lets follow along) or alternatively the presentation in the myth could be a vilification of the ancestors of the said people.

      Your description of the claims of Jats, Kannads and Keralites along with Marathis kind of aligns with regional frequencies of ydna haplogroup L. So it may or may not have substance to it.

      Of course, I wouldn’t expect (H)i(J)(R)a gang to record a clear discription of a former potentially rival society so it could easily be a combination of the aforementioned things. I have been quite open about links to certain Dravidians so it may be just that.

      1. Many inscriptions and record of Naga’s and Yakshas in Sri Lanka.

        Many Kings named SomethingNaga, eg ChoraNaga.

        One of the explanations for Sinhala is that it derived from Siuw Hela, i.e Four Peoples, Naga, Raksha, Deva, who became the Sinhala people.

        eg
        https://imgur.com/gallery/zTywoFO
        9 AD Sinhala Prakrit inscription at Kirinda ViharaMahaDevi Vihara.
        Language Sinhala Prakrit:
        Inscription records a Viceroy named Naga renounced false beliefs and converted to Buddhism.

        More details here
        https://www.lankapradeepa.com/2020/08/kirinda-viharamahadevi-raja-maha.html

        1. Thank you for the references @DaThang @sbarrkum

          Reading Adi Parva one gets the overwhelming sense that “Nagas” were a group of people, although the text mentions that they were mythical.

          The text goes on to describe the regions where Nagas dwelled, their cities, their beautiful women folk.

          Iravan, son of Ulupi and Arjuna even fought in the Mahabharat war.

          This painting of Arjuna and Ulupi is something:

          https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Arjuna_and_the_River_Nymph_by_1913.jpg

          There are communities in present day costal Karnataka and Kerala where snake worship is prevalent. Tulvas a community in costal Karnataka claims to be descendants of Nagavanshi. There is an elaborate festival and ritual called “Nagamandala”

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagaradhane

          I think there were populations in India who worshipped snakes and had kingdoms, there was conflicts, friendship, marriage alliances between Nagas and Aryans. I think there are a lot of disconnected points, but not a single good research paper or book on Nagas.

          1. My mistake.

            In the ancient times, Hela Diva was divided in to four different parts, namely, Yakkha Hela, Naaga Hela, Kumbhanda Hela and Gaandharwa Hela. In addition to this there were sixteen Sakyan Janapadas in Janbudveepa* which came under Deva Hela. The city of Rajagaha mentioned here was in the Sakyan state called Maghada in Dewa Hela.

            *Northern India

            https://panhinda.sirisaddharmaya.net/ancient-hela-diva-as-explained-by-aaataanaata-sutta-and-maha-samaya-sutta/

            For Yaksa=Raksha
            Yaksas (1928) Ananda Coomaraswamy
            https://archive.org/details/yaksas02coom

          2. I m currently reading the Adi Parva myself.
            Distinction between sarpa and nag is clearly made.
            Nagas r as NM says semi mythical, mythical or realist beasts/ppl

      1. @sbarrkum
        The page you referenced is extraordinarily interesting.

        The term “Jambudwepe” repeats extensively in Hindu mantras. When one is beginning a Pooja, he mentions that he is so and so at this place in “Jambudwepe”, ” Bharata khande”.

        If anything “Jambudwepe” is like a continent in which “Bharat” exists.

        Looks to me that the stories and places from India got adapted to places in Sri Lanka and the term Jambudwepe got applied to Sri Lanka.

        The passage in the page is also extraordinarily specific about the nature of beings:

        “the king of Gandharwa called Dhatharattha, the king of the Naaga tribe called Viroopakkha and the king of Kumbandha called Viroolha are human beings. All in the armies came with these kings are also human beings. They are human beings of each tribe and not the invisible, unknown and extraordinary spirits”

        Reference about Jambudwepe in sankalpa mantra:

        https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/7735/sankalpam-replacing-terms-like-jambo-dweepe-bharata-varshe-etc

        1. NM
          Looks to me that the stories and places from India got adapted to places in Sri Lanka and the term Jambudwepe got applied to Sri Lanka.

          In the Sinhalese 2,000+ year recorded history there is no ambiguity about Jambudipa/Jambudweepa.
          It is India, specifically North India.

          Sri Lanka is Lankadipa, Lankadweepa

          stories and places from India got adapted to places in Sri Lanka

          Nothing of the sort. i.e. adapted.
          History of Sri Lanka was recorded by the Buddhist monks. They were very clear about India and Sri Lanka.

          eg Asoka, Chandragupta Mauyura, Bimbisara were household names in SL for 2000+ years. That was because Asoka sent his son and daughter to spread Buddhism in Sri Lanka.

          This is the chapter of the Mahavamsa that refers to Asoka, Chandragupta, Bimbisara etc.
          If you ever find a India text that descriptive let me know.

          http://mahavamsa.org/mahavamsa/original-version/05-third-council/

          Be it known, that two hundred and eighteen years had passed from the nibbana of the Master unto Asoka’s consecration.

          That single verse was able to date the year of Asoka’s reign.

          1. @sbarrkum

            Mahavamsa narrates events starting from 700-900 years before its composition. The Puranas have a different chronology for the Nandas and Mauryas, both in terms of dates and dynasty lengths. The Greek accounts have a different chronology. The Mahavamsa was chosen as a coathanger because it was “convenient”.

            For example, Mahavamsa states that the Nanda kings ruled for a total of 22 years. This is exceptionally low. 22 years does not make an empire. The Greek accounts lay down 120 years for the Nandas. The Puranas are also diverging – from 50 to 100 years.

          2. Ugra,

            Have you noticed you make claims without reference.

            eg you say
            The Puranas have a different chronology for the Nandas and Mauryas, both in terms of dates and dynasty lengths

            So please give the reference and the text.

            I would be extremely impressed if you can give references of dates in the Puranas.

            In the year of “KaliYugaya” does not count.

          3. @sbarrkum

            https://www.rarebooksocietyofindia.org/postDetail.php?id=196174216674_10154418987581675

            On the page above (Rare Books of India), there is a link to download the book as pdf.

            A scholar from Vijayawada, Pandit Kota Venkatachalam, published a book called “The Plot in Indian Chronology” in 1953. It is based on the Puranic king lists and statements of successions.

            I don’t know what prejudice you have towards the Kali calendar. Sayana, Aryabhata, Pargiter, William Jones have all worked with the Kali dates. The Kali dates also form the basis for all Indian calendars including the Vikram Era in use today. Traditional Indian history records were responsible for first deriving the approximate dynasty bearings. They helped William Jones and Prinsep is first deriving the phonetic connection between Sandracottos and Chandragupta.

          4. I was mistaken. I was responding to the map that was presented in the website you referenced which showed Sri Lanka as Jambudwepa.

            But thank you for the wonderful reference though. I liked how emphatic the text is that “Nagas” are real people and not mythical:

            “the king of Gandharwa called Dhatharattha, the king of the Naaga tribe called Viroopakkha and the king of Kumbandha called Viroolha are human beings. All in the armies came with these kings are also human beings. They are human beings of each tribe and not the invisible, unknown and extraordinary spirits”

          5. Ugra

            You give a link to a book. No reference to a page and what I should see.
            Easy enough to take a screen shot and link it thru imgur.

            Traditional Indian history records were responsible for first deriving the approximate dynasty bearings. They helped William Jones and Prinsep is first deriving the phonetic connection between Sandracottos and Chandragupta.

            You have jumped from Puranas to traditional history records.
            Now I think you are lying, when you say Prinsep used these histories and Kali Yugays type dating to get approximated dynasty bearing.

            What is your academic background, looks like you dont have any formal science and math or to make a logical case.

          6. @sbarrkum

            I can point you to some page numbers(pages 9 onwards to 28, but page 24 and 25 specifically, where the Nanda dynasty is stated to be 100 years), but you must read the whole book to get a firm grasp of the calculations.

            Puranas ARE the traditional history books of India. Along with the Itihasas, they provide a near complete picture of Ancient India and Prehistoric India respectively. Almost every dynasty named in the Puranas has been verified by epigraphy (Hathimgumpha, the Iron Pillar etc).

            Your ad-hominem attacks aren’t adding value to the discussion.

      2. Jatland wiki sounds mostly like a bunch of people high on ganja wrote a lot of BS about Jats to make up for our lack of relevance in Indian history. Except Lohagarh. And good ol’ Suraj, that beautiful Brown man. #SurajMalWastheOG #WewuzAryansandshite

        1. A source that considers Gujars, Rajputs, Yadavs and Ahirs to be Jats isn’t reliable, period. At this rate, Baniyas and Brahmins will be added eventually as well.

        2. It seems, we don’t know anything about Jats. We don’t know if they are indigenous or came from somewhere. What was their previous name(s)? Where they came (if they came) from and in which direction? It was here a guy who wrote under attribute ‘Scythian’ but we don’t know anything about them either. Which language they spoke? They claim that they are indigenous (?) Aryan descendants. What is their basic haplogroup? I wrote about them couple times, even named their city in today’s Israel which was destroyed but, it seems, none, including Jats themselves, did not care. I asked why PM Vajpayee cancelled the World Jats Congress in Belgrade in early 90ies but without any response. It must have some significance that Indian government reacted this way.

          I haven’t visited their site recently but there were many interesting things, e.g. 30-40 statements of credible scientists and anthropologists about their origins. Their claim that they fought Romans is not so ridiculous as it seems on the first ball. It should be found details about these battles and who was involved in them. Maybe there really were Jats but under different name.

          Also, we don’t know anything about Aryans in Serendib, who gave this name and what does it mean. Who did silk trade using sea routes? What’s happened with Aryans (who were considered as Aryans) after immigration from mainland flooded the island? There are still so many taboo topics in SA.

          1. I exaggerated a bit that we don’t know anything. But, it seems to me, everything is relative. Can you tell us concisely where Jats originated, what is their basic haplogroup(s), what we know about Aryans in Serendib? Three sentences, thanks DT.

          2. @Milan
            I defer to DaThang when it comes to the more technical stuff, he knows far more about the nuances of archaeogenetics and the archaeological record. OTOH, my bio anthropology degree gives me greater expertise with the race related topics.

          3. Milan, Jats originated as a mix between late bronze age northern south Asian populations and late bronze age steppe populations. As of now, the identity of the said bronze age northern south Asian culture is unknown, it is possible that the local sources for different Indian groups come from different local cultures instead of a single one (like the different domains of IVC).

            The exact autosomal details vary among the 3 Jat groups: Hindu Jaats, Muslim Jutts, and Sikhs Jatts. Muslims on average have the lowest steppe ancestry, and Hindus the highest. Conversely, Hindu Jaats have the lowest local ancestry among the 3 groups on average, Muslim Jutts have the highest AASI and roughly about as much of the Iran derived ancestry as Sikh Jatts do. Haplogroups frequencies also vary. I don’t know about comprehensive source for Muslim Jutts with a large sample size, but what I have seen indicates R1a being dominant among them. Among Sikh Jatts, R1a is the most common group (40%+), followed by L (30s%(in the larger sample sizes)) and then the rest. Hindu Jaats on the other hand have more L (40%+) than any other Jat subgroup, more than the frequency of R1a in Hindu Jaats. The second most common is R1a (25%) and the third most common is Q (just over 20%-almost as much as R1a). The frequency of R1a alone is not high among Hindu Jaats which is in contrast to Hindu Jaats having the highest steppe ancestry of the three. I don’t know why that is especially because Rors, who are autosomally similar to Hindu Jats have a very different yDNA haplogroup profile. Neither do I know where the excess L and Q come from, I have heard about a possible link with BMAC, that may or may not be the case.

            And lastly I don’t have an answer to your last question regarding Serendib.

          4. Very detailed, thanks DT. In plain English, Jats are a mixture of Slavics (is there any R1a which does not belong to Slavics?) and local population? We still don’t know anything about the previous history of the ‘Slavic component’, about their names and the place where they came from. WE also don’t know anything about the transition period after Aryans’ arrival, territory organisation, interaction with locals, cultural interchange. This is still ‘tabulla rasa’ even for scholars who have no doubt about Aryans arrivals. Aryans in Serendib (‘serpska dvipa’) is a part of this picture. I am amazed that none knows or does not say anything about this. Young guns interested in history could start researching this period instead of endless and frustrated wiki chewing.

  15. Talageri has published a new blog post concerning the Rgveda chronology and also dates.

    Old books (No 6, 3, 7) – written down before 3500 BC. Perhaps Book no 6 (the oldest) might have begun in the 4th millennium BC.

    Middle books (No 4, 2) – All written down by 2500 BC.

    New books (No 5, 1, 8, 9) – composed after 2500 BC but before 2000 BC

    The Newest (Book no 10) – the last to be composed by 1500 BC.

    He uses element analysis and the well dated Mitanni evidence to set dates for the New books. With this sheet anchor, he works backwards and forward.

    The order of the books themselves are not in dispute – Erdosy, Hopkins, Witzel and a lot of Sanskrit scholars are in agreement with the order.

    Where Talageri goes a step further is that he analyses the names, words and phrases in the Books with Avesta and the Mitanni language. They have the greatest common occurrence with the New Books. They are conspicuously absent in the Old, Middle and Newest books.

  16. I keep saying this, they should have a coursework for their workers,mlas,mps etc on sensitivity on these issues.

  17. // Old books (No 6, 3, 7) – written down before 3500 BC //

    Lol @ “books … written down”. You chaps don’t really get it, do you?

  18. To add to @Ugra post.

    There was BMAC hypothesis — which has failed now as Indians don’t have BMAC ancestry — that tried to explain common IA and Iranian elements. Reasons why it was popular as according to western scholars:

    1. IA went through an acculturation process in BMAC. They brought BMAC culture to India. Now, both archaeology and genetics are against it.

    2. Steppe culture is not followed in India.

    3. According to them, IA and Iranians separated in BMAC; developed a common culture there.

    So, where are the Iranians? Perhaps soon some explanation will be available from the AMT side; or maybe not. Genuine question: Why don’t Eurasians speak Mongolian? At least it should be spoken in Iran; Genghis Khan culled 90% of Iran’s population. Furthermore, there is star cluster ancestry attributed to him.

  19. Why don’t Eurasians speak Mongolian? At least it should be spoken in Iran; Genghis Khan culled 90% of Iran’s population.

    timepass, stop making stuff up. genghis khan did not cull 90% of iran’s population.

    – genghis khan was not involved in the iran campaign, he was involved in the turan campaign. his grandson hulagu was involved in the later conquest of iran (and iraq)

    – there is no way they killed 90% of the people. in fact, they probably didn’t kill 90% of the people in turan (looking at the % west eurasian in even turkic speaking central asians)

    Why don’t Eurasians speak Mongolian?

    most of the mongol armies that moved west were turkic-speaking. not mongolian speaking. this is well know to anyone reads mongol history (you obviously don’t). the transition happened very quickly to turkic in the golden horde for this reason. western mongolia at the time of the rise of genghis khan was turkic speaking (keraits and naimans were turkic). it was mongolicized.

    the star phylogeny of genghis khan is found in the hazaras but not in most iranians or turanians.

    most of you “out of india” types are strongly motivated by emotions. most of the time you do a good job sticking to facts, but you just threw out a bunch of falsehoods because you have no idea what you are talking about, and now you are on my bad side.

    two suggestions

    1) read non-indian history. you don’t need to, i don’t care if you know anything about that, but if you comment on non-indian history you should learn it rather than just making stuff up (JR for example should be your model; i think he’s wrong, but he marshals the evidence in a competence way that makes me think harder and sharper rather than simply angers me with stupidity)

    2) perhaps go back to citing things…maybe that keeps you honest. you just threw out a bunch of bullshit into this thread, and i’m pretty peeved now

    you should not follow in ugra’s footsteps. they’re a midwit.

    1. @Razib

      I don’t know all history; that is true.

      1. I read about Mongols from wiki. I think better to say Genghis Khan’s culling and famine reduced Iran’s population to 10%. I don’t know the breakdown between direct and indirect killings. From the calculation based on the citation below, they killed ~70% of the people directly and ~20% indirectly?

      [1]”””
      Ancient sources described Genghis Khan’s conquests as wholesale destruction on an unprecedented scale in certain geographical regions, causing great demographic changes in Asia. According to the works of the Iranian historian Rashid al-Din (1247–1318), the Mongols killed more than 700,000 people in Merv and more than 1,000,000 in Nishapur. The total population of Persia may have dropped from 2,500,000 to 250,000 as a result of mass extermination and famine. Population exchanges also sometimes occurred.[6]”””

      2. I did not know that most of the army spoke Turkic. It makes some sense now. However, even after this, I don’t understand why Mongolian is not spoken more widely. Why did the army, e.g., not adopt Mongolian at least?

      References
      1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire

  20. if you want to talk to me about history, you need to do more than wikipedia (though that’s a good place to *start*). my job is not to give you the education in these comments that you can obtain yourself. since you will be studying in the US soon i encourage you to use the excellent university library and read on topics of interest to you. most graduate students don’t do this because they’re technicians. if that’s what you want to be, that’s fine, but don’t expect to be engaged by those who will read structured books.

    you need to make a choice as to the type of person you want to be.

    1. @Razib

      I was wondering, are you aware of the origins of your surname? I don’t mean the original etymology, but the reasons behind the adoption of your surname. Did you have Mughal/Turkic/Mongol nobility in your family tree?

      1. late mughal tax collectors or whatever i believe. the village outside of Chandpur that my paternal family is from was traditionally dominated by my family and we built and staffed the mosque. my paternal grandfather and his father etc. were ulems. but from what i can gather partible inheritance had reduced my paternal grandfather’s circumstances so that was old history (my father’s mother came from a family that owned milk production factories and jute plantations so that’s how my father experienced some comfort as a youth).

        there is a legend of pathan ancestry, but i’m skeptical, though my paternal grandfather’s physical appearance (tall, light-skinned) probably solidified that opinion. i should look at the details of R1a1a lineage some day as i have a VCF file. that would confirm whether it was indigneous or pathan (i’m 95% confident it’s indigenous, but you never know; my mother has very very distant persian ancestry which we only know about because her mother’s father was in possession of the koran with the names of all the paternal ancestors going back to isfahan in the 17th century [they left because they were sunni ulema and that was not a good time for that there]). that koran is now in the possession of one of my mother’s cousins in noakhali, but anyone from the lineage group can look at it if they visit (most of my uncles have). my great-great-great grandfather or whatever on that side is the subject of local veneration due to his piety and all that and his tomb is a pilgrimage site, and all of his descendents contribute $ (well, not all) to buy rice to feed people. i give $200 per year.

        1. “i should look at the details of R1a1a lineage some day”

          I would be also interested to see when and where our ancestors’ roads crossed.

          1. PS. If needed, I can contribute to the research with some language analysis. For example, I can analyse the Serbian word PIR which was taken by the most of world and SA languages (including ‘ancient Greek’, according to Aristocle). Or, we may give it to the pundits to try to solve this task (double bottle of red to compensate for CAT).

            Btw, anyone knows that Aristocle’s nickname – Plato – is also coming from Serbian language with the meaning – ‘square-shouldered’. If anyone knew, he/she deserves a bottle, too (I will trust him/her, just send your delivery details).

          2. To make easier to pundits, there are some of (South) Asian languages which (based on Google translate) adopted Serbian word PIR…

            Bengali (pira), Kannada, Marathi (pira), Hindi (peer), Nepali, Sinhala, Chinese (pier), Telugu, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Punjabi (pira), Mongolian, Japanese (piru), Malayalam, Tamil, Tajik, Thai (phir), Yiddish…

          3. While pundits work hard to explain the above mentioned word PIR, in order to help them, there is an excerpt from Plato’s (remember a ‘wide shouldered guy’?) ‘Cratylus’ where the word PIR Socrates mentioned in his first sentence (just notice the word ”water’ as well, we may later also talk about this):

            “Socrates:

            Well, this word πῦρ is probably foreign; for it is difficult to connect it with the Greek language, and besides, the Phrygians have the same word, only slightly altered. The same is the case with ὕδωρ (water), κύων (dog), and many other words.

            Hermogenes:

            Yes, that is true.

            Socrates:

            So we must not propose forced explanations of these words, though something might be said about them. I therefore set aside πῦρ and ὕδωρ in this way.”

            Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 12 translated by Harold N. Fowler. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921.

        2. Thank you for that comprehensive and illuminating portrait. You’re quite lucky to have a record that goes back 4 centuries, not many people can boast of such far-reaching genealogical records. The profession that your paternal side was engaged in (Mughal tax collectors) combined with your mother’s documented descent from Persian ulemas and her family wealth, all lend credence to the idea that they were landed gentry, most likely of foreign descent. The likely ethnic background of your grandfather would only further cement this idea.

          The tomb being a pilgrimage sight is quite interesting, again shows that your family has been quite prominent historically. I see parallels with my family in the sense that my ancestors were also fairly privileged land-owners (zamindars). Its admirable to see that religion has a practical utility BTW (donations being used to feed the poor), especially with the poverty and malnutrition that is characteristic of most of South Asia. And to think, at one point in time, Mughal Bengal, with its capital in Dacca, was considered to be the paradise of nations, and a proto-industrialized economy famous for its textiles, jute, steel, and shipbuilding, along with being a prolific exporter of different spices and crops. The poverty that we see in that region today has its roots in a toxic cocktail of colonialism and native treachery. Along with the destruction of Mughal Bengal’s economy, there were multiple massive famines that decimated the population of the region. What was once a cornucopia of all things holy was turned into a place where people struggled to survive in appalling poverty. Though parts of West and East Bengal later recovered somewhat, thanks to reaping the benefits of hosting the capitals in the form of Calcutta and Dhaka, the entire region is still recovering from centuries of unconscionable loot and destruction. We can thank Mir Jafar and his henchmen for ruining the whole party. More on that in the next paragraph.

          Seeing as Milan brought up Plato, a related story is that of the friendship between the OG Jatt, Suraj Mal, AKA Mr. Mahogany, and Siraj Ud-Daulah, the last Nawab of Bengal. You see, Maharaj Suraj Mal has been called the “Plato of the Jats” ( I kid you not 😉 ) for his sagacious nature and steely resilience. (Among other things, he is famous for being one of the only monarchs in India to withstand, and then drive away a prolonged attack from the English army. His fort, Lohagarh, AKA Fort of Iron, was impregnable). And as it happened, the Brown Plato and Nawab Siraj allied together to defeat an attack orchestrated by the Mughal emperor and his Maratha allies. Alas, the peace was short lived, for the Battle of Plassey that followed utterly ruined the prosperity and independence of Mughal Bengal, which was then drained of its wealth to finance the Industrial Revolution in Britain. But for at least a little longer, the status quo in Bengal, which at the time was of financial prosperity, lasted just a little while longer, thanks to the alliance between Suraj Mal and Siraj Ud-Daulah.

          1. Thank you for that comprehensive and illuminating portrait. You’re quite lucky to have a record that goes back 4 centuries, not many people can boast of such far-reaching genealogical records. The profession that your paternal side was engaged in (Mughal tax collectors) combined with your mother’s documented descent from Persian ulemas and her family wealth, all lend credence to the idea that they were landed gentry, most likely of foreign descent.

            just want to be clear here. you can find my genotype. it’s pretty bog-standard bengali. i just have MORE east asian than typical. it do likely have genealogical ancestry to west asia assuming there was no paternity break…but that’s really distant (my mother’s “persian” ancestor wasn’t very persian by the time he relocated to noakhali around 1800, as they had lived in delhi for more than a century and no doubt mixed with the indian muslims there). my father’s mother is half bengali brahmin (her father), and he is somewhat shifted in that direction compared to my mother.

            so unlike the ashraf which look visibly west asian, we’re not that at all. we have very distant genealogical connections possible, and one very likely one because of the koran documentation. but that’s it.

          2. The tomb being a pilgrimage sight is quite interesting, again shows that your family has been quite prominent historically.

            don’t want to overdue it. he’s just a guy who taught Islam to peasants btwn homna comilla and noakhali. locally famous.

            my maternal grandmother took me to the tomb when i was 4. it’s a modest affair, but of course elevated because of the floods. it’s great-grandfather after all.

          3. Thanks for the clarification. IIRC, one of your older posts on Discover/Gene XP did indeed mention the elevated East Asian ancestry. I suppose that makes you an official descendant of the Great Khan (in a way? either through the East Asian ancestry itself and/or through distant ancestry from West Asia that harbored Mongol and Turkic admixture) Surname checks out, Dr. Khan. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgHOkmmCIAEHtP0.jpg

  21. Azerbaijan’s offensive in Karabakh is losing momentum and has no good prospects. Occupying several villages in a week does not deserve comment. And in front of the Azerbaijanis are mountain ranges controlled by the Karabakh Defense Army. In those mountains, which are controlled by the Armenians, there are no conditions for larger operations. The war has been going on for a whole week without any real effects for Azerbaijan, despite its superiority in manpower and weapons.

    Armenia has not yet included its main strike systems in the war, especially the missile weapon with which it can strike the oil fields of Azerbaijan. The Armed Forces of Azerbaijan do not have long-range missiles comparable, for example, to the operational-tactical missile systems “Iskander” available to Armenia. Azerbaijan has quite large losses and will not be able to attack Karabakh for a long time.

  22. Razib great Podcast with Abhinav Prakash – he is such a erudite and articulate person- great having him on podcast;
    others do listen to the podcast – if u r patrons;
    Non patrons wait for it

    Though i feel the point raised by Janmejaya was wrt Untouchability and not caste in general – he was saying untouchability is rarer than projected – he didnt say caste doesnt matter

  23. RE: The origin of the word CAT (we are continuing our language discussion)

    Unfortunately, I haven’t received any response on reward question re:CAT. It means that this bottle of red I will be drinking alone. Anyway, better luck next time, cheers pundits!

    Here is the correct answer:

    It is crucial to understand that prehistoric words preserved the connection between sound and meaning. The words of pra-language later get vowels and further on from them will be forme derive words. That is why it is interesting to analyze how humans named animals that surrounded them. And through this we could see which languages have preserved the connection with pra-language through connection between sound and meaning. Illustrative and simple example to understand the process of word formation is he word MAČKA cat or MACA (kitty) Precisely: vocal minimum MC. Under sound M we recognize cats because cats make meowing sound. Cats most strongly react and respond to hissing sound C (tz)

    Scientists today know that sound C (tz) is a sound on which cats most promptly respond. So, cat owners are advised to include sound C (tz) when naming their cats. Prehistoric man recognized and used sounds instinctively and more precise than us. On the example of MAČKA (cat) we can best see beside Serbs the word MAČKA in Europe is used only by Slovaks and Hungarians. R1a genetic haplogroup dominates among Slovaks with significant presence of I2A haplogroup. Genetics Hungarians are genetically very similar to Serbs and other Slavs with combination of R1a and I2a. Hungarians have no genetic connection to Finns. Because Finno-Ugric people carry N haplogroup. Which is detected among Hungarians with miserable 0.5%. Therefore, MAČKA is the word carried by people of R1a and I2a genetic haplogroups.

    That this is so further substantiate with the fact that the only similar form of word MAČKA exist among Kyrgyzians in Asia which dominantly 55%+ belong to R1a haplogroup. It proves that the word MAČKA is present today exactly where it originated from – in the civilization of prehistoric Danubian region. And that similar form appears where genetics of Danubian civilization expanded to.

    Over time people have notice that MAČKA se KOTI (cat is breeding) very often, much more than other animals. Cat breeds twice or tree time a year. They may have large offspring and breeding time may last 60 days. So. in Russian, Polish, Belarusian language we have a modern form – KOT and with Bulgarians more picturesque – KOTKA. In order to be sure where the English form of word came from, we have to look into Czech language. Exactly as English would write and read: KAT.

    We tend to say STOKA SE KOTI (cattle breed) and that is where the word SKOT comes from. The word SKOT until recently in Serbian language represented an animal and not a person of mean character as it represents today. Even today, for an animal that is about to give birth we say it is SKOTNA.
    sToKa (catte, livestock) is sKoTa due to metathesis – when consonants change places which is quite often in genesis of words.

    We clearly defined that English CAT came out of KOT, i.e. KOT-yenye (breeding) and another control sample to confirm this is the word KETL (cattle) in English language.

  24. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-54338864

    India’s new paper Covid-19 test could be a ‘game changer’

    “The test, named after a famous Indian fictional detective, is based on a gene-editing technology called Crispr. Scientists estimate that the kit – called Feluda – would return results in under an hour and cost 500 rupees (about $6.75; £5.25).”

    “They found that the new test had 96% sensitivity and 98% specificity.”

    “Feluda will be made by a leading Indian conglomerate, Tata, and could be the world’s first paper-based Covid-19 test available in the market.”

    Anyone in the know here, does this thing have legs?

    If we can get the price down from 500 to say 50 like a pregnancy test, this could be the end of the pandemic in India in a way.

  25. The irony is that Hrithik has a Bengali paternal grandmother. His father and uncle look like Bengali Brahmins for a reason. Reminds me of the whole Jewish baby propaganda poster used by the Nazis. #HypodescentFTW

    yeah but they care about phenotype not genotype

  26. so i talked to abhhinav prakash on the podcast. mostly about the rape thing in up 🙁 and later some talk about dalits in UP (different communities). but i also asked about the assertion by some of you that caste is not a big deal etc. i thought you guys were bullshitting me, and abhinav politely pretty much confirmed that. the explanation is straightfwd: when you are a dalit you see all the dicks. when you’re not, you don’t. this seems obvious, but i guess it’s not to some of you people.

    (also we talked more about his family’s recent experience with casteism after the podcast but i didn’t record that stuff since it’s personal; but stop bullshitting you me! though you’re indian, so you’ll keep doing it 😉

    1. Razib great Podcast with Abhinav Prakash – he is such a erudite and articulate person- great having him on podcast;
      others do listen to the podcast – if u r patrons;
      Non patrons wait for it

      Though i feel the point raised by Janmejaya was wrt Untouchability and not caste in general – he was saying untouchability is rarer than projected – he didnt say caste doesnt matter Abhinav also answered about Caste not Untouchability.

    2. Dude, when did I ever say caste does not matter? or that caste is not a big deal. You seem to be intent on mischaracterizing me.

      The thing I claimed was untouchability does not exist in India currently. Its eradication has been one of big successes of the Independent Indian state. Today you cannot go to a restaurant and refuse to be served by a dalit. You cannot refuse to travel cheek by jowl with a dalit in a crowded suburban train. Not only you cannot do these things because it would be practically impossible, but if you tried this shit and offend some Dalit, your ass would be hauled to jail through the SC/ST act.

      The second thing I claimed was caste atrocities against Dalits were not a result of Brahminism or the edicts of Manu Smriti but a function of the power and wealth differential between dominant groups (mostly rural land holding castes) and Dalits. Why else would Jatt Sikhs or Tamil OBCs (both strongly denounce Brahminism) oppress Dalits?

      Here take a look:
      https://thewire.in/caste/tamil-nadu-caste-atrocities-lockdown
      https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/punjab/2-000-cases-of-atrocities-on-dalits-reported-every-year-862179

      Caste is a big deal in India. In one’s personal life its pretty important in marriages. In choosing one’s friends, not so much. Most marriages in India are still arranged within caste.

      Caste is also the way Indians everywhere organize for elections and creating caste alliances which manage to win is the most important political skill in India today. Something Modi and Shah are really good at.

      Since the lot of Dalits has steadily been improving and they have had their share of political success, its also my point that there is much lower chance of atrocities against them going unpunished as it was earlier. The very fact that you hear about such cases now DOES NOT mean that evil BJP is adhering to Manusmriti but that the older caste hierarchy has weakened and Indian society has come a long was since independence in ensuring the rights and liberties of its weakest citizens.

      1. fair enough, i didn’t totally understand what you mean obviously!

        also, stop talking about manusmirit at me. i don’t care about it at all. unlike some people i’m pretty consistent in thinking that texts have a very weak predictive value for current practices.

  27. Thanks for the clarification. IIRC, one of your older posts on Discover/Gene XP did indeed mention the elevated East Asian ancestry. I suppose that makes you an official descendant of the Great Khan (in a way? either through the East Asian ancestry itself and/or through distant ancestry from West Asia that harbored Mongol and Turkic admixture) Surname checks out, Dr. Khan. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgHOkmmCIAEHtP0.jpg

    it’s burmese not mogol. from the east, not the west

  28. caste obviously matters in india. and as the recents events in UP have shown, it matters a whole lot. i have no qualms in admitting that dalits are usually at the receiving end of most cases strifes. so yes, it still sucks to be born a dalit in india.

    what my, and the contention of some other folks in this blog was that practice of untouchability has largely faded away. indians don’t ask the caste of the cooks and waiters before eating in a fast food joint. and i can assure everyone that we certainly don’t take a ritual bath if the shadow of a dalit falls upon us. literal untouchability of these kind as prescribed in scriptures is long dead. so don’t take hindu scriptures at face value to understand caste, that’s all.

  29. @BhimRao
    This might even be used in a railway wheel to assess the quality of the track and such things

    I have developed the technology for this; I published in an IEEE journal too. If all my ideas get to see the light of the day, I think I can make a lot of impact in saving costs and lives. An Indian VC also offered to fund the development of a prototype (don’t know how sincere). However, rather than spending time with Indian Railways, a very bureaucratic organization to put it mildly, I thought might as well as go to the US, and try my luck there, i.e., gain knowledge, skills, and money. I am confident that I can beat anyone in this space.

    Do you think it is worthwhile to work more on this? I am just a single person, and I have to do a lot of work to make a commercial product; I need a lot of money too.

    Furthermore, what is the best way to gather funding? Would a Professor in a US university help in this endeavor? Or perhaps, better yet, since you are a Ph.D., do become a faculty somewhere; I can then get funding from you.

    1. Making money from Indian Government is next to impossible. These people are not worth our time.
      “Do you think it is worthwhile to work more on this? I am just a single person, and I have to do a lot of work to make a commercial product; I need a lot of money too.”
      Really I have no clue. Commercial safety-critical hardware takes years upon years and millions in funding for even small things.
      “Furthermore, what is the best way to gather funding?”
      In the US there is SBIR and STTR that put in money on difficult problems. Once you have something VC people might show up.
      “Would a Professor in a US university help in this endeavor?”
      Very few professors have what it takes to be (good) entrepreneurs. Some are interested but from what I have seen they just don’t have that spark in them. Some especially in fields like chemistry, material science etc can get away with being conventional and still make money from entrepreneurship but for others things never work out in business.
      “Or perhaps, better yet, since you are a Ph.D., do become a faculty somewhere; I can then get funding from you.”
      I don’t know what makes you so hopeful. I am literally at the bottom of the food chain right now.
      btw how old are you? what work experience do you have? what did you study?

      1. @BhimRao
        I have worked in IT related industry in India + consultancy. Then I did some research on my own because I wanted to do masters from the US (did not have a high CGPA). By chance, I decided to work on this problem as it seemed interesting. My specialization is in electrical + computer engineering.

        Do you think I should publish new papers or take out patents? In patents you can hide some stuff though. However, papers will be good for my career.

        ****

        Now for Part II of becoming Associate Professor at IIT:

        Prerequisite: Become an Assistant Professor at some university abroad.

        1. IITs are resource constrained, i.e., they need funding. Any Assistant Professor who can bring funding will be selected hands down.

        2. If you can find a mentor, i.e., a senior Professor who is a well wisher, your path will be easier; very hard to do though.

        3. No age limit in applying for Associate Professor job.

        If you can ensure Point I, you will sail through. Not surprisingly, people who have money — and know how to use it — can pull anything off.

          1. Post doc working on autonomy and SLAM at an American University. Only timepaas directs questions to me, I relay them to Violet, Ugra, Vikram, Scorpion and others. The reason you hear my name is because I don’t know(or care) enough about genetics or history and my written English sucks, so I subsist here by creating a lot of noise about tech.

        1. “Do you think I should publish new papers or take out patents? In patents you can hide some stuff though. However, papers will be good for my career.”

          For industry jobs no one cares, I implore you to focus on getting a good internship, it is not possible for a starter to do some great research in a new field in one year, be realistic and calculative, lots of things in life are one shot. It is best to tag along with someone who already has an ongoing project.

          Patent vs Paper and secrecy etc. frankly NO ONE in the whole world cares about some idea in your (or my) head and almost 99.9999999…% of times no one is out to steal it. Putting it crudely a large part of research in academia is all about trying to accrue fame and admiration from peers so communicating clearly is the key. Work with the best professor in your area of interest you can find (saves on doing literature survey or wasted effort) and just do exactly what he asks of you for a while.

          1. @BhimRao
            Thnx for the advice. I will do so — find a good internship and a good research project of a Professor; these are, and should be, my biggest priorities as you rightly said. I will keep you posted on my side project if something comes out of it.

    1. Hardly related but reading dawn always brings a smile to my face, background score goes ‘zehreele zehreele kaale neele peele, pathhar si hain aankhein, daant hain nukeele….iss shahar mein saanp baste hain….’

  30. Has anyone followed what’s happening to the Tinexile handle ?
    Twitter is reducing followers almost daily. Deep state twitter is very deep it seems.

    1. Someone said that it may be because he activated his account after a while, so it might be a technical snag, if you click on his follower list, it shows nothing

      Meanwhile there’s a fake handle named @TrueIndology trying to take his place amidst the chaos

    2. Twitter has been censoring RW voices but also LW (anti-imperialist) voices with increasing frequency in the last 2-3 years. I scarcely call it a free platform anymore, much as it is an American propaganda platform controlled by the US Deep State.

  31. RE: German ophthalmologist Werner Weber: Serbian Cyrillic is the first alphabet in the world

    German ophthalmologist Dr. Werner Weber called Serbian Cyrillic “the first alphabet in the world”. He defended his doctoral dissertation in Leipzig in 1937 on the topic of “Alphabets of the World” when he established that the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet was a “holiday for the eyes”.

    According to him, this letter is the least tiring of all eyes, which is why it took the title of “the first alphabet of the world”.

    The famous Irish playwright George Bernard Shaw also considered Serbian Cyrillic to be the most perfect alphabet in the world. In his will, he left a sum of money of 367,233 pounds to an Englishman who managed to simplify the English alphabet on the model of Cyrillic alphabet (one letter – one sound). To this day, there is no such reformer among the British who would receive the legacy of a great writer.

  32. It’s better to be a poor pupil in a rich country than the reverse

    Interesting research showing the centrality of national income to individual educational outcomes. Helps explain why Indian diaspora do so well in developed countries but not natives in India – even after controlling for SES. It’s also underlines why emigration is so alluring: you’re not just improving your own lot, but you dramatically increase the chances for your children, too, even controlling for incomes.

  33. Anyone can say precisely – what is the exact meaning of the words – ‘rg veda’? Thanks.

  34. Thoughts on inviting foreign universities to India:
    https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-10-07/india-seeks-prestigious-foreign-universities-to-open-campuses
    0) Pokhariyal is not suited for his job. Neither was Irani.
    1) Modi’s other ministers have learned to throw around ‘gazzilion, billion, trillion …..’ like Gadkari without matching Gadkari’s performance. A few days ago saw Ravi Shankar Prasad and Rajnath too throwing ridiculous numbers. No accountability from these guys about lying so shamelessly.
    2) Unlike Iphone and Tesla, I do think there is a business case for American/British/Australian universities to open college(not grad school) in India.
    3) Supposedly ‘elite’ colonial schools in India are nothing special and pretentious third rate copies of British public schools. If people can pay 12 lpa ($16000 per year) on some make-believe ‘elite’ school then they sure can fork some money on an actually famous university.

    What do you guys think?

    1. This is already a thing in places like Dubai and Singapore iirc. So why not, if the market is there.

  35. CCP and Radical Islam are the two biggest threats to global peace and human rights in the 21st century. I have nothing against moderates or the Chinese people. But the two aforementioned evil and domineering ideologies must remain on everyone’s radar. If the world is not weary, great preventable damage will be done.

    1. Just add the ‘exceptionalists’ who for centuries try to dominate, who started hundreds of wars in last couple hundreds of years, who propagete endless wars, who try to colonise the whole world.

  36. ram vilas paswan has died.
    he will be missed, as a counter foil to mayawathi.
    will his (handsome!) son from a brahmin woman be accepted as a dalit by his people?
    interesting times!!

  37. The hypersonic Russian naval rocket “Zircon”, which will have a speed of more than 9 Mach and a range of over a thousand kilometres, successfully hit the target in the Barents Sea 450 km distance while flying faster than 8 Mahs.

    “We got weapons that give the Russian fleet an advantage over the most modern and most powerful fleet in the world. The launch of `Zircon` is a new phase in the development of Russian weapons systems. Modern air and missile defence systems are not capable of dealing with hypersonic manoeuvre missiles. “Zircon is able to break through any defence of a ship or ship formations and hit the target.” – Russians say. “Zircons” can be launched by rocket launchers that use “Caliber” and “Onyx” cruise missiles.

    >>>> IT means that Zircons can be launched from any river boat or commercial ship container and they can in a matter of seconds destroy the whole fleet.

    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

    RE: The Pentagon has entrusted Mask with espionage of Russian and Chinese hypersonic weapons

    * The American Space Development Agency plans to have a whole constellation of satellites in close space and in low orbits around the Earth by 2022. Their task will be to protect the United States from sudden Russian and Chinese attacks with hypersonic strike blocks

    * The working name of the project is Constellation, and it predicts that the United States has several thousand satellites in the mentioned function. And those satellites need to make and launch Space-X

    * Not even the entire constellation of Mask’s low-orbit satellites guarantees the Pentagon the interception of hundreds of hypersonic warheads

    ILON Mask – the boss of Space-X – got a new big contract with the Pentagon.

    Thus, Musk will become the head of the project for the production of satellites that should match the latest Russian hypersonic weapons.

    In fact, the Pentagon, through a contract with Mask, is largely repeating the second phase of the deployment of the acclaimed global satellite internet system Starlink, which belongs to Mask and Space-X.

    This has already given rise to a humorous proposal that it is time for Musk to stop “encrypting” and to honestly say that infrared sensors will be installed on Starlink satellites, which will work in the interest of the Pentagon.

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