Open Thread – 10/10/2020

Some cool podcasts will be posted soon. Already posted two on the Patron page, including a very cool one where Mukunda and Jahanarra talk to Michael Fortner. A professor at CUNY, Fortner is the author of Black Silent Majority: The Rockefeller Drug Laws and the Politics of Punishment.

I’ve also posted a podcast with Devang Mehta on what’s wrong with science, and how to fix it (also, some advice for Indians who might want to get into the world of Western academic science).

Also, I will probably post a few previews of a new podcast I’m starting (solo) for patrons. This is going to be part of my new substack newsletter. This weekend I’ll be talking to an old friend from grad school who snapped and turned against wokism last week (he was involved with BLM since 2015, and I just got off the phone with him and he told me things he’s seen in BLM up until this summer left him very jaded, suspicious, and skeptical).

114 thoughts on “Open Thread – 10/10/2020”

  1. This paper might have been discussed here earlier, but:

    Interesting data about heights from the paper that talks about lower lean mass in the people from the Indian sub-continent.

    Mesolithic Indians in Ganga plains were on average much taller than their European counterparts and modern day Indians

    Other interesting talk about how agriculture might have impacted height and build negatively leading to present day susceptibility to type 2 diabetes

      1. “They want from being shortest to the tallest in the world now. Answer: Dairy (cheese)”

        I remember Razib mention in an old post that it also had to do with sexual selection.

      2. Here are some numbers:

        Average height ranging from 180 to 183 cms for men and 178 to 168 for women (two digs) and 163 cms (another dig)

        The Mesolithic Indians ^

      3. @NM

        This is very very interesting, to say the least. In the many of the Puranas (Matsya, Vishnu) and also the Ramayana/Mahabharatha, there are frequent allusions to very tall people in the Krta and Treta Yuga. The numbers are fanciful – like 5 palm trees tall or 21 cubits tall. But the consistency of definition does indeed point to a tall race of people in the Gangetic Plains. The people grew more taller in the tales!!

        1. @Ugra
          A new super nice book has been published related to Puranic History by Springer. It takes into account the standard historical dating of Chandragupta Maurya, Buddha etc.; and calculates the dates of various Puranic events based on archaeological, palaeoclimatological, geological, astronomic, genealogical, etc. evidences. It explains very well the subject of archaeoastronomy too. I think you will like it. Description from the website:

          Title: Descriptive Archaeoastronomy and Ancient Indian Chronology

          About the book
          This book presents the basic fundamentals of descriptive archaeoastronomy and its application to the astronomical descriptions found in ancient Indian scriptures. Archaeoastronomy is a branch of positional astronomy that helps to determine the epochs of ancient astronomical alignments and special astronomical events. In this book, only the descriptions of special stellar alignments and events found in ancient texts can identify the antiquity of the descriptions. India possesses a large volume of ancient scriptures like Vedas and Puranas which contain many astronomical descriptions as in ancient India positional astronomy was well developed. The antiquities of these texts are determined through archaeoastronomical techniques. Major events like Mahabharata War are dated and using these dates a chronology of ancient India is determined. The astronomically determined chronology is compared with the results from various archaeological, palaeoclimatological, geological and genealogical investigations of ancient India. This introductory book interests readers interested in unveiling the mystery involved with the protohistory of this ancient civilization.

          1. @timepaas

            Great find!! The fact that Springer published it and the credentials of Dr. Ghosh are evidence that more and more professional assessments are becoming mainstream. I read the preview and Dr Ghosh goes straight for the jugular (AIT/AMT).

    1. >Other interesting talk about how agriculture might have impacted height

      >and build
      But the following does not indicate considerable change in build:

      “In the South Asian dataset, breadth z-score adjusted for length z-score and latitude (to account for geographic patterning in the data) showed a slight significant increase through time (Fig. 4, Supplementary Table 1: trend for date in linear regression model, p = 0.02), indicating that there was an increase in relative lean mass of South Asians over this period, albeit small in magnitude (0.04 z-score units per 1,000 years, standard error = 0.02), and explaining only 1% of the variance in bone breadth z-score.”

      Build is rather consistent. Good thing that you have brought this us since I have just recently snooped up this one from the collection:

      I posted this specific link because of the openly available download/view option. It has values for ~5500 BP/3500 BC mesolithic postcranial measurements. And they do look lean to me. Calvicle length is shorter than the Ukraine mesolithic and neolithic average, while the other bone lengths (limbs) are longer. This indicates a tall and narrow build in the Damdama group.

      And yes, the mesolithic/neolithic distribution happens to be uneven in India. The oldest neolithic sites go back to roughly 7000 BC while the most recent mesolithic ones are around only 5000 years old. Still, from the 3 main mesolithic sites from UP; 2 cluster closer to one another than to the third temporally. Mahadaha (MHDH) is from between 12,190 BP to 9350 BP while Sarai Nahar Rai (SNR) is from 10,050 BP. Meanwhile Damadama is from 5500 BP. I guess you can call it early mesolithic (MHDH + SNR) and late mesolithic (for example Damadama).

      1. DaThang thank you for this. I got these stats from the paper:

        Average height ranging from 180 to 183 cms for men and 178 to 168 for women (two digs) and 163 cms (another dig)

        That is taller than modern day Americans, most Europeans and Australians!

        1. There was this 2013 revision which used Egyptians as a reference (as opposed to American whites in the older ones) to calculate stature:

          Revised values is 174 cm for MDH, 178 cm for DDM & SNR males, 163 cm for MDH females, 179 cm for SNR females. MDH is shorter than DDM and SNR, even though it is roughly contemporaneous with SNR.

  2. My comment hasn’t passed through, so please do look out for it mods. If you find a second, similar one, then delete that second one.

  3. In last OT I cited the anthropologist Pittar Eugine who wrote about the “beautiful human group of people…members of the Dinaric race… of high stature ….whose main residence today (1924) is the east coast of Adriatic Sea” and who populated SW coast of Norway and NE coast of Scotland 2500+BC.

    WIKI says: The people of the Dinaric Alps are on record as being the tallest in the world, with an average adolescent height of 185.6 cm (6 ft 1.1 in).[11] The people of Bosnia and Herzegovina (MT: Serbs) have the highest recorded average of any single country, with 183.9 cm average for men and 172.72 cm for women.[12][13][14]

    I2A Dinaric people originated in proximity of the Dinara mountain, close to Adriatic coast. Some members of this group are Novak Djokovic, James Munro, the 5th US president and Chuck Norris. The last two are descendants of I2A people which populated British Isles from 5500 BC, where they were only haplogroup until R1B came in 2500 BC. This HG today have 5% of people on British Isles.

    1. This ain’t how u do history this is just well researched propoganda.

      I must say to OP: Congratulations on joining the community of flat earthers. If an opinion is a propaganda, nobody stops you or others from bursting it; at least give reasons for it to be wrong. A blanket dismissal shows a deeply indoctrinated mind; or worse it is sign of lack of grey matter.

      In short: This comment — competing with the bullshit of @Milan Todorovic — takes the cake in the denial of facts.

      1. Fulto –
        propaganda – information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view.
        It need not be false or burstable.
        A blanket dismissal shows a deeply indoctrineated mind; or worse it is sign of lack of grey matter.
        What I implied isn’t blanket dismissal – but taking stuff with grain of salt as I said.

        Rather only last week I implored why twitter was messing up his followers – including me. I often follow the handle myself and find it very informative and fact-checking and a good addition to twitter-sphere.
        But work doesn’t appear robust (like tendency to see things in extreme black and white)- aim appears propaganda – promoting a political cause or point of view. . That isn’t a search for truth – as history is supposed to be. If you call what Leftist did in India propaganda – what TI and others do is also the mirror of that propaganda – thought ppl will call it course correction.

        A blanket dismissal shows a deeply indoctrinated mind; or worse it is sign of lack of grey matter.
        Your behavior here of gleaning unsaid or unmeant information from a small point appears Stupid

      2. @GauravL

        In that case it is fine. Over-interpreting available info. happens all the time. That is why multiplicity of opinions and viewpoints are encouraged to form a coherent picture.

        1. yup; For example only today I saw TrueIndology claim that Ambedkar’s position on 370 circulating is fake, a lot of RW ppl have been circulating it for years.
          And TrueIndology has backed his claim with primary sources. Today Naidu said something quoting that fake quote and fell on his face.
          I don’t think he has ever made up sources or quoted fake falsehoods. Hence I respect that handle a lot. But its tendency to see stuff in black and white I implore. and the following he has gained where his word is taken as final truth.

    1. No. Gujaratis have their own issues. But gender equality and safety of women is way better than in gangetic plain.

    2. Gujarat is among the safest states in India for women..not sure if there are any issues with her data..
      That garba scene is absolutely common everywhere in Gujarat and more than one Northie ( and Southie) I know has been completely awestruck by it

  4. No one is coming yet to explain the words ‘rg’ and ‘veda’.

    From the site:

    Purpose and Origin of the Vedas

    “Veda means knowledge. The word comes from the Sanskrit language and is derived from the verb root VID, ‘to know’. Originally the Vedas were composed in Sanskrit.”


    The word VID is a Serbian word which means – sight, vision. In ancient times the knowledge was what you’ve seen. VEDA literally means VID but, in fact means – knowledge. Even now is frequently used the sentence – Seeing is believing!

    What about the word RG?

    1. Another source to indicate that ‘rg’ means ‘praise’.

      The word rg comes from the verb root rc, meaning ‘to praise’. From the same root comes a feminine noun rc, which means ‘praise’ or ‘verse’, especially a sacred verse recited in praise of a deity. Thus we can understand the direct meaning of Rg-Veda to be ‘The knowledge of sacred recitation’ or, as stated in the dictionary, ‘Veda of praise’.

      1. Good effort ENineM. You found the same source as I did above for VEDA. However, as you can see, their explanation is not very precise (see my comment). I can hardly believe that RG can mean ‘verse’ or ‘book’ (if Tallageri says that they are 3500+BC old and he is probably in right time but on wrong place). English translations reflect this confusion. Sometimes, Rg Veda is ‘Wisdom of the Verses’, sometimes – ‘Knowledge of Wisdom’, etc.

        Let see if OIT guys come out with their version. They may find something in wiki. Btw their frustration has already transformed into ordinary hatred. I was expecting their transition to lunacy only and to stop there but I was wrong. It is funny that I did not have anything against their theories, they even had my sympathies but, now, I need to write a serious letter to Nilesh, because they compromise him.

        Re RG – after oit, I will write my version. You will probably agree that even visually, the form of RG is probably one step from pra-language. This makes things more interesting. I am curious if these guys can squeeze anything from wiki.

    2. Just another look (I believe, it is important) on the above excerpt. Although it looks all good, there are few incorrect things:

      – ‘Veda’ does not mean literally ‘knowledge’
      – The text implies that ‘veda’ is derived from the word VID for which we don’t know where it comes from
      – This word VID is not a verb, then noun (verb is VIDETI) and does not mean ‘to know’
      – VID means ‘sight’
      – It should be emphasised that ‘sight’ meant ‘knowledge’

      I am very curious to see the explanation of the word RG. It’s time for Sanskrit&oit experts to cool their heads down and step in. We may see (=videti) what Tallageri thinks about this.

  5. I was referring more to female autonomy and rights than safety. Alice Evan’s maps showed female autonomy in Gujarat being as restricted as in the North.

    Tbh, I think female autonomy is higher in Gujarat, MH, Kerala, KT, Assam and West Bengal. It is low in in the NW, Bihar, MP, Andhra and TN. And I think each of these places has its own story as to how their gender relations evolved.

    1. “She is rated at 1.5/5 and the scale is 1-5 (not 0-5!, ouch). The comments are gold”
      Congratulations, you and seemingly the majority of the twitter balderdashes have fallen for the mischief of some low-effort idiot/s. If you had ever used the website in the past you’d know that it isn’t much active and the reviews are made sparingly, around 2 or 3 a year. look at when these negative comments/reviews were published for Dr. Truschke(24 comments since the last 4 days, that is impossible for any professor on that website). the absence of logic in the hindutva it cell befuddles me tbh.

      its only popular in northam, so razib can tell better..

      1. “the absence of logic in the hindutva it cell befuddles me tbh”

        Most people, be it left or right, don’t really read beyond the headlines. Both left and right post dumb shit and keep fact-checking each other.

        P.S. Truschke does suck though (inb4 it cell comment)

  6. Dathang and I had a detailed discussion on bone structure and muscle mass, in the context of ancient DNA, in the past. Can’t find that thread. Might be useful to link. We discussed one paper in particular that found historical prevalence of low lean mass phenotype in the subcontinent 2/2 presumably small bone structure, the primary driver of low lean mass state, postulated to be an adaptation to high heat environment, in the context of maximizing heat dissipation via increased surface area to volume ratio, as seen similarly in Horn of Africa people.

    1. This is a nice article about the situation:
      The Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict hints at the future of war
      A lot of propaganda is taking place. Wins on the ground are very less.

      1. For military implications:
      The Key to Armenia’s Tank Losses: The Sensors, Not the Shooters

      2. For geopolitics behind the war:
      What’s at stake in the Armenia-Azerbaijan chessboard

      Now in India:
      Amid face-off with China, army ammo worth $190 million languishes in Russia

    2. More good news for you, Bhim…

      “Intelligence data say that Turkey was sending jihadists from the Nusra Front to Azerbaijan. That changes everything in the war for Karabakh. Nusra is actually Al Qaeda in Syria. It is an Islamic state, only under a different flag. Here is what Nusra is.

      When the suicide bombers broke through in Aleppo with the roar of mortars – everyone immediately knew that Nusra was coming. When the churches burned overnight, and the Christian villages were devastated – everyone knew immediately that it was Nusra. When we learned that a group of Islamists in Idlib raped a 60-year-old Christian woman – Armenian Susan Der Kirkur for nine hours, and then stoned her to death – we immediately knew that it was Nusra. They are completely soulless, perfectly organized and dangerous assassins, perfected and hardened by the war and they now fight against 19-years old conscripts. It took Assad years to learn how to fight them effectively….”

      1. “More good news for you, Bhim…”?
        Why is it good for me? I am (obviously!!) cheering for (the defending underdog) Armenian side. Maybe I shouldn’t have said ‘enjoy’, that was insensitive.

        But the Russians are not helping Armenians enough and Turks/Azeris are blowing up their tanks, clearly Armenians were not prepared for this. Russian S300s are being taken down by puny drones. What can my commenting otherwise possibly do?

          1. The manga or the scripture?
            Rig = praises? source:wiki

            Nasadiya Sukta and Purusha Sukta are widely popular in popular culture.
            Gayatri is the most popular mantra from Rig Veda.

  7. AKP’s success in Turkey is due to higher trust motivated by religious unity – not increased religiosity in Turkish society. I wonder if similar factors are at play in India. Are Indian liberals simply less cohesive and less trusting than Indian RW Hindus are of each other? And concurrently, is there any evidence of rising religious fervor in India or is it more about organising a large bloc of people who were largely untapped?

    1. The boomers in the security state were uncomfortable with the number of Pakistanis posting videos openly mocking them.

  8. RE: In the run-up to the US presidential election

    The newly formed NGO Transition Integrity Group has announced plans to push Trump out of the White House in every way possible – including the use of “democratically-minded military and special services representatives.”

    At the head of that project is Rosa Brooks, who was his “senior national security adviser” for Barack Obama’s government. At the same time, she is a senior advisor to the head of the “Open Society” – the main organization of George Soros.

    Brooks was in charge of humanitarian operations at the Pentagon. She also fought for human rights in NGOs such as Human Watch and Amnesty International. She also taught at West Point, the main military academy in the United States.

    In 2016, Brooks published a book with the characteristic title “How Everything Became War, and Members of the Army Became Everything”.

    Her idea is that the war of the future will not be similar to the previous ones. That it will be a chaotic hostility that the United States and its allies will wage with small forces around the world. It will not even be called war, but, for example, anti-terrorist operations or “restoration of the democratic order”.

    The media will position the future war as a small police operation. The flow of information about what is happening will not play a less important role than the actual hostilities. The war in the future will combine extreme cruelty toward civilians and extreme hypocrisy in reporting on events. Everything will be true according to Orwell: “war is peace”.

    The boundaries between war and non-war will disappear completely. The war of the future will be boundless and endless.

    Brooks’ strategy is not her personal invention. In the same West Point, they have been developing the concept of war in cities with millions of inhabitants for a long time, which means long-lasting confrontations on the streets of the megalopolis, participation of criminals and oppositionists and cleaning of civilians. In general: “everything has become a war”.

    In which megacities does the US military intend to fight?

    Military analyst Alex Ward, for example, describing future conflicts, suggests that the United States and its allies could “clean up” such “centers of instability” as Karachi in Pakistan and New Delhi in India. He claims that there could be a critical increase in the number of conflicts for religious and social reasons, so that the United States will simply be “forced” to intervene and clean the megacities from terrorist elements.

    In the USA, warfare in megacities has been practiced since 2015. In major American cities in Arizona, California, Texas, Utah, Nevada and New Mexico. Those exercises also included capturing the cities.

  9. Re: Women’s safety / Gujarat -> alcohol prohibition

    Gujarat is just as patriarchal as other places in India but drinking culture is less prevalent as alcohol has been banned since the creation of the state in 1960.

    I wonder if this translates into increased safety for women.

    For a long time Kashmir, Gujarat were the only Indian states to have alcohol prohibition. A couple of North east states banned it in 90s. Bihar implemented a ban in 2016.

    Women were more in support of these bans then men. This is similar to the temperance movement in the US where women played an outsize role.

    This of course comes with its own issues, people still want to drink and Gujarat has a liquor mafia. Etc.

    In Gujarat’s case there is an argument that it might benefit from legalizing alcohol and taxing it at this point. But there is little popular support.

    Muslims regard it as Haram. Gujarati Hindus / Jains have a culture of one upmanship when it comes to food restriction. And for government officials the bribes are a significant source of personal revenue.

    Gujarati people brag about “not even drinking cha” lol

    1. Gujaratis are also more pragmatic and less honor culture minded. This helps too

      This is all relative tho. Gujarati village culture is still honor oriented in the grand scheme, just less so than NW and gangetic plain. Perhaps Jainism influence?


        Why the honour killing Bill won;t work

        “The Brahmin does not feel honour, nor does the merchant. Two communities feel honour in India, the peasant and the warrior.

        Haryana also has Baniyas, but they don’t do honour killing. Gujarat has other castes, but only one does honour killing. We have seen the Rajputs of Gujarat act as savages with their children. But there are no honour killings in Gujarat’s dominant peasant caste, the Patel. Why? Because he has absorbed the Baniya’s pragmatism over time. How? Through culture. There is little value for honour in a mercantile culture, because inflexibility brings pride but always causes loss. Also through religion.

        The deity in the homes of Charotar’s Patels is Sri Krishna in his beautiful Ranchhod form. Ranchhod means he-who-fled-from-battle. It refers to Sri Krishna’s act of pragmatism when he chose to save himself by running away from Jarasandh’s fierce general Kalyavan instead of fighting.”

    2. sumit/warlock, I figure there are many types of patriarchy and not just degrees of it. I’ve always favoured the mercantile culture angle. Its not that gujarat doesn’t have residual feudal hangups, but merchants are prestigious to such an extent that they need not affect “lordliness” to be leaders. Also, something I’m not so sure about, but are there an elite strata of patidars who were warlords? In many other regions, the leading cultivator caste generates one, if not direct relations to the monarch. Squeezed between maratha, rajput and muslim powers, the elite patidars may have been content as revenue collectors and not really men of arms. Contradicting much of this this is the case of marwaris in rajasthan, who seem similar in many regards (from my geographical remove), but with women of notably less agency. As an aside, one of the things thats always struck me sweetly about older gujarati couples is a sort of equality and light hearted flirtatiousness. Dunno if I’ve met a whole bunch of outliers though.

      1. Also, something I’m not so sure about, but are there an elite strata of patidars who were warlords? In many other regions, the leading cultivator caste generates one

        Not that I know of.

        My impression is that Muslim Patels (l.e. Bohras / Sunni Vohras) are equally non-martial.

        So don’t think it comes from devotion to Krishna bhagwan.

        There is another large Gujarati agrarian caste ‘Thakore’ that is more martial, but they don’t own as much land due to historical reasons.

    3. I have noticed a lower response from these states (and Pakistan) on my ‘bottle of red’ questions and now I know why. I will provide an option to replace the previous reward with a bottle of coke, pepsi, dr pepper or a brick of long-term lactose free milk.

      Speaking about the reward, at least one pundit who works on the PIR task, asked for the integral Plato’s text of Cratylus where this and other foreign words were discussed by Socrates. Just to remind all pundits that the word PIR is present in the most worldwide languages and it is interesting to find out how this word, taken from Phrygians, found its way in both, ‘classical’ Greek and SAsians languages.

      The link for integral Cratylus (the deadline for responses is extended accordingly) is:

  10. Has Biden won? The inaugural IBD/TIPP 2020 Presidential Election Tracking Poll finds Biden leading Trump 52.7% to 42.3% or by 10.4 percentage points. Trump is leading Biden 50% to 45% among non hispanic caucasians or by 5 percentage points. This is down from Trump’s 20 percentage point lead among non hispanic caucasians in 2016. Or Trump is down by 15 percentage points among non hispanic caucasians. Biden leads Trump by 15 percentage points or 54% to 39% among hispanic. Down from Hillary’s 38 percentage point lead among hispanics in 2016. Or Trump is up 23 percentage points among hispanic voters. Note that Trump is being blown out in a landslide (10.4 percentage points in the general sample) in a poll where Trump is up 23 percentage points among hispanic voters. Even if Trump were to tie the hispanic vote he would still lose the general election if all else holds equal.


    Bhagwat said, “Which country’s Muslims are happiest? India’s Muslims. Is there any other country where a religion not originating there has remained in power and is still there? There is no other country than India. Despite a bloody history, Muslims are still here, Christians are here. When India was created (jab Hindustan bana), given the kind of atmosphere that existed then, Hindustan could well have said that now there is Pakistan for Muslims and that now the Hindu writ will run here (yahan Hinduonki chalegi). But our Constitution didn’t say this. Our Constitution included all the people. This is our nature (swabhav hai). This swabhav is called Hindu.”

    Bhagwat further said, “Our being Hindu is not about to whom we pray. Dharma is that which binds us, lifts us up and holds the society. It is such that when followed one can get both material and spiritual happiness. Whatever may be your way of praying, nationality (rashtriyata) has no relation to puja. We have to see that fundamentalism, which keeps raising its head, shouldn’t get the wind. For that we have to be one nation. We are a nation that has been in existence from that time, we are a Hindu rashtra. All we have to do is give up narrowness and badness. And there are highly-placed, educated and influential Muslims and Christians, who accept this.”

    1. That is interesting. Being from the enemy country of Pakistan, all I have heard about the RSS is they are Hindu Nazis who want to murder every Muslim in their beds.

      1. I would say that’s one of the reasons why RSS remains popular –
        Indian liberals make childish caricatures of them – which r at times worse than Strawman – bcoz actually fighting their ideology is difficult – and would include a lot of on-ground work & even accepting that certain points the RSS makes may be valid YET disagreeing with their solutions to the said problems.

        I would even go further and say – in a system with deep nepotism and feudal powers – such liberals who take up this challenge are a rare breed in India – UR AnanthaMurthy appears the only one i have read recently who comes to mind.

        1. Sometimes the caricature are so bad, that even folks who disagree with RSS would find it funny. Like the whole RSS-Nazis thing.

          No group in India has the discipline and totalitarianism of the Nazis. Why Nazis, not even the CCP of China. But still we stick with these comparison because it makes them evil incarnate, which our desi woke SJWs can slay online. One of my closest friend who is dalit from Nagpur, active in all this US’s anti Hindutva, NRC/CAA , dalit groups and all tried to put some sense in these other UC woke-sters but now stands ‘Cancelled’.

    2. Dharma is that which binds us, lifts us up and holds the society. It is such that when followed one can get both material and spiritual happiness.
      Mr Bhagwat would agree with my shtick on “Dharmic”? He and his ilk clearly see dharma as different than praying\religion –
      Or it could more easily be used exactly in the opposite manner as well 😛 – Indians under Dharma

  12. @Razib
    I was actually browsing Anthrogenica forum and found the interesting Harappa world gedmatch results for Rakhigari Harappan skeleton,
    SNP number (31,760 SNPs)
    S-Indian 46.86 Pct
    Baloch 36.55 Pct
    Caucasian 4.88 Pct
    NE-Euro 6.49 Pct
    SE-Asian –
    Siberian –
    NE-Asian 2.57 Pct
    Papuan –
    American –
    Beringian 1.03 Pct
    Mediterranean –
    SW-Asian –
    San 0.30 Pct
    E-African 0.51 Pct
    Pygmy –
    W-African 0.80 Pct

    Distance to: TP7757435(RAKHIGARHI_HARAPPAN_BA)
    2.91475556 brahmin_tamil_nadu
    3.13137350 gujarati
    3.14405789 maharashtrian
    3.35026865 iyengar_brahmin
    3.44241195 iyer_brahmin
    3.63788400 karnataka_brahmin
    3.73030830 meghawal
    3.85876923 tamil_brahmin
    3.89556158 rajasthani
    3.98395532 tn_brahmin
    4.11736566 ap-brahmin
    4.25962440 goan
    4.37777341 south_indian_brahmin
    4.50373179 uttar_pradesh_kshatriya
    4.96001008 kerala_nair
    Interesting, That harappan skeleton was more closer to modern day South Indian Brahmins, so it is entirely possible that South Indian brahmins directly came from IVC to South india(during the decline of IVC), not from UP or Gujarat and maintanined strict endogamy(not being admixed with any other population)
    I know that Harappa world calculator is somewhat outdated but can be somewhat useful in some cases
    What are your thoughts Razib?

    1. The Rakhigarhi woman belonged to haplogroup U2b2 (mtDNA) that is part of the U2i grouping (U2a, U2b, U2c). The U2i groups are considered autochthonous to the Indian subcontinent as opposed to the U2e grouping (Europe).

      Here in this 2004 paper, you can see the distribution of U2b and it subclades in modern day Indians. The peaks are in the Gangetic Belt, Balochistan and a region covering Kerala, Tamilnadu and Sri Lanka.

    2. This is mine. Looks quite similar. Someone here commented I look like Indus priest statues.

      Admix Results (sorted): # Population Percent
      S-Indian 47.67
      Baloch 37.96
      NE-Euro 5.02
      Caucasian 3.77
      Mediterranean 1.63
      Beringian 1.04
      SW-Asian 1.01

      Finished reading population data. 377 populations found. 16 components mode. ——————————– Least-squares method. Using 1 population approximation: 1 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 1.385425 2 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 1.739841 3 tn-brahmin_xing @ 2.211229 4 ap-brahmin_xing @ 2.631906 5 gujarati_harappa @ 2.674091 6 kerala-nair_harappa @ 2.687250 7 meghawal_reich @ 3.008754 8 goan_harappa @ 3.070798 9 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 3.131064 10 maharashtrian_harappa @ 3.479293 11 rajasthani_harappa @ 3.788218 12 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 3.880803 13 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 3.881992 14 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 4.487882 15 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 4.571156

      1. @warlock
        Wow, ur results are extremely similar to South Indian Brahmins.
        R u Gujju jain btw?

        1. vanias from gujarat are mid caste N Indians. it isn’t surprising they can be modeled as 75% N Indian Brahmin and 25% typical S Indian the same way S Indian brahmins can be. This more or less just speaks to how cleanly the caste-geography-ancestry nexus works out.

          to be fair, gangetic plains banias tend to be more mixed with some more AASI leaning individuals, from kits I’ve seen, and also on the Reich data. But again, this could just be sampling. I haven’t seen a whole ton to differentiate. Regardless the difference isn’t massive or anything.

      2. “Someone here commented I look like Indus priest statues.” — @thewarlock, i have a stupid question but how does that statue represent a ‘priest’ ?

        1. td “i have a stupid question but how does that statue represent a ‘priest’ ?”
          I wouldn’t call that a stupid question. We are having a lecture series these days on Harappa, and I’m not attending, but my classmate is, and the other day he told me that this exact question was directed to Dr. Shinde. He seemed to be of the opinion that even though there is a complete absence of any evidence of priestly or monarchical rule from the Harappan urban centers(actually the present consensus is that there was some sort of democracy-ish rule in some urban localities, i don’t recollect why i remember so), the excavators like Marshall or maybe Dikshit preferred to call it a “priestly king” purely because of its grandeur and regalness. The adornments that accessorise it were unusual for any Harappan figure or sculpture unearthed until then. So the figure was named as such just for the sake of “christening” it, and i already told you the reasons for the choice.
          (I might be wholly wrong though, i dont specialise in proto-history)

      3. thewarlock:
        I have a similar admix result on Harappa. Will find and post soon.
        How did you get the distance to the various individuals?

  13. i’m u2b2

    Interesting, That harappan skeleton was more closer to modern day South Indian Brahmins, so it is entirely possible that South Indian brahmins directly came from IVC to South india(during the decline of IVC), not from UP or Gujarat and maintanined strict endogamy(not being admixed with any other population)

    this is an artifact of south indian brahmins being mix btwn north & south. i’ve looked, and south indian brahmins have nontrivial steppe. this is unlike groups like reddys which have a lot less steppe, or nadars who are ~0. reddys in particular are IVC-indus periphery enriched

  14. Bangladesh has introduced the death pentalty for rapists. Rape of women is the topic du jour in South Asia. In India, it’s the hathras case. In Pakistan, it was the express way gangrape a few weeks ago. Imran Khan suggested the death penalty but didn’t do anything. It takes a woman to do it, and Hasina did.

    I live in a country where it is seen as primordial that the death penalty exists. I acknowledge the risk of a false conviction but in some cases, such as in the hathras case or in the Pakistani one, everyone knew who the culprits were and they themselves didn’t even deny it. In these instances, it’s a waste of taxpayer money to let them rot in jail. Just liquidate the filth and let the world be a better place.

    1. @principia, I understand the need for having dealth penalty for rapists in india however …

      “I acknowledge the risk of a false conviction but in some cases, such as in the hathras case or in the Pakistani one, everyone knew who the culprits were and they themselves didn’t even deny it. ” —

      i don’t know about the pakistani case, but where did you read that the accused in the hathras case “didn’t even deny it” . I am not aware of this so may be you can help me here.

      Based on whatever i have read and know, the initial FIR filed based on family members’ testimonies on 14th september had only one accused and charges were levelled under Sec 307 of the IPC(attempt to murder) and SC/ST act. Rape followed by gang rape and three more accused were added 6-7 days when victim regained consciousness and gave final testimony. I know this is extremely controversial and lot has been said about it but didn’t the final FSL report rule out rape ?

  15. M.F.Neve in his:

    “Etudes sur les hymnes du Rg-Veda, Paris-Louvian, MDCCCXLII, Librarie l’Institut de France.”

    ….wrote about the richness, beauty and exceptionality of the ancient language of the Vedic hymns about which he says:

    “Elegant, strong, simple … and they are not devoid of artistic value (p. 25)

    Here is what Neve writes about the language of the Vedas:

    “This language is sonorous, musical, fresh, miraculous, created to be an echo of wildlife, stormy, harmonious, it is a mirror of the clear sky and the mountain horizon. Some hymns of the Rg-Veda reflect – with a faint light – a surprising richness of forms and images (p. 41)….
    … The language of the Vedas bears the stamp of warrior pride and quiet melancholy (p.31) …..
    …. the verse has power, while the phrase in its development is always warrior’s (p.55) ”

  16. The IMF has released its biannual World Economic Outlook today. It forecasts Bangladesh to surpass India for the first time since the country was founded by nominal GDP per capita this year. Historic!


    Must read from Nazariya wale chacha. Some gems:

    ‘The SAPM, however, said that the Indian Muslims did not want to be “ruled by India”.’

    ‘Uighurs is a non-issue […] Our delegations have visited, we’ve seen and we are a 100 per cent satisfied that it’s a non-issue.’

    LOL! 😀 Nasl badal denge Chini, Pakistanis already have practice.

    ‘in 2019, more than a billion US dollars from the Indian embassy funds had been used for the merger of Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan with other terrorist outfits….”Congratulations to the RAW. They have succeeded in creating an organisation to kill Pakistanis,” he said….He further said that Malik Fareedoun, a mastermind of the Army Public School massacre in Peshawar, was in touch with handlers at the Indian consulate in Afghanistan.’

    Everyone in this country is crazy, can’t even keep their little children (APS) out of these things. Disgusting!


      The video for the talk.

      BTW to me it seems like Moeed has burnt his bridges with the US (is he still a GC holder?). I am not sure even liberal Think tanks would welcome him after his public defense on the Ughuyr issue. Considering that it will put a bulls eye on their back.

      On the other Indo-Pak stuff lot of things are in grey area, so it just par for the course.

      1. I am OK with him making noise, that’s his job.

        I am also OK with Uighurs, if Muslims (Turks/Persians) don’t care then why should I bother? Its not that India’s opinion or meager strength is of any consequence to anyone. So screw the Uighurs, I really don’t care. More of their mosques will be turned to toilets and many more will be persecuted, for once it would actually be for real for the lying Muslim propaganda people.

        At the start itself I have a very low opinion of Geostrategy/International-Relations/Think-tank people, these guys are like some bullshit-economists. But bringing in APS references is low even for him, Pakistan Army people have the decency to not do politics over dead bodies of little children. Mentioning Kulbhushan drama would have been fine but sullying the memory of little children with propaganda, that too knowing that India didn’t do anything, that’s low.

      2. Moeed is a nazariya chacha, these kinds of people are required for bringing diversity(read masala) in think tanks remember the infamous Al-Jazeera interview of wannabe supervillain Durrani when he defended supporting terrorists? Plus Moeed is polished enough to suck up to right people, say things that others want to hear and in general appear intelligent.

        I wouldn’t trust any of these foreign returnee types with national security roles. That gori lady Cynthia Ritchie who accused PPP Cabinet minister of rape, vloggers like Rosie Gabrielle who convert to Islam and become darlings of higher ups in Pakistan, Imran’s ex-wife Reham Khan, bureaucrats with multiple citizenships…. the list of people who can be compromised is endless in Pakistan especially when videos of even Musharraf selling out to Americans are out in the open. I don’t know why do Pakistanis let these non-essential people in? Perhaps they offer enough masala-entertainment-distraction to keep the spotlight away from the filth of the establishment.

        But why bother? Let them do their silly shenanigans, at the end of the day Pakistan is a laboratory for ever creative experiments.

        1. I would draw a difference b/w Durrani and Moeed. Moeed still has to return to the west at some point. Its like Arvind Subramnium or Rajan. They know they have 2 come back, so they dont really gung-ho on the nationalist cool aid. Subramaniyum, for example recommended the US admin to impose tariffs on India b4 joining the Indian Govt .

          Durrani is more similar to Doval in a sense he doesnt have a west to return to, so they could be more ‘cavalier’.

          1. Rajan is an Indian citizen. He is helping set up a big university in India:
            I cut him a lot of slack because of this.

            At the end of the day all immigrants are in it for themselves and their family. Among the ones who don’t return I really respect those who plough resources(money/mind/influence) back to India to help out the ones left behind. They are much better than the ones who stay but don’t improve things.

          2. Hmm, perhaps.

            I dont know man, would i go out on a limb for Imran Khan in such a volatile polity. I am not sure, perhaps they pay is very good.

          3. He was a nobody, and now he gets to sit in a nice office and have a long designation, Pakistan has had a tradition of importing ‘technocrats’ from the west and expecting them to do magic. This place is DIY heaven.

            A few years in office is more than his accent-faking best buddy Ejaz Haider or tinhat Moeed Pirzada could ever manage.

            Working at a think tank spewing BS is nothing new for them.

          4. Agree with Bhimrao. A few years in this role and he will be golden for the Western thinktanks trying to fill the Pakistani/Islamic world slot. Doesn’t matter what the pay is now, he will rake it in in professional and monetary success later. And if one is ‘enterprising’ and morally flexible, this is a good way to build relationships with the generals for future Pizza Hut franchises (and other businesses).

            Also, it seems Pakistan has an oversupply of glib, thinktank types who are much more presentable than their salt-of-the-ground Indian counterparts, and are lapped up much more by the gullible (perhaps deliberately) Americans and British.

      3. Lol. It’s become really easy to troll Indians.

        The low-level right wing types will fly off the handle and just shout at anyone who’ll listen to them, which is basically each other. The lefty types, especially the women, will jizz themselves because he’s cute and speaks in English.

        Pakistanis have figured online Indians out.

      4. Saurav

        Current president Gotahabya Rajapakse was a US citizen.

        A Lt Colonel in SL army, did his 20 years, retired /forced out bcos of politics.

        Went to US,

        Accusations that he was 7eleven worker (probably true, many of us who did not have daddys money did stuff like that)

        Late Unix admin at Loyala College, CA.

        Came back to SL during his brother Mahinda’s Presidency.

        Defense Secretary while being Dual Citizen.

        Won the war, and huge clean up/beautification of Colombo and other big cities.

        2015-2019 Govt implemented laws* preventing Dual citizens from becoming president or MP’s.

        2009, Gotabhya renounces US citizenship, landslide victory. Favors, China more than US.

        *I am all preventing Dual Citizens contesting for office. Ambiguous loyalty. More importantly can escape law in Sri Lanka and extradition.

    2. TRT World:

      headline reads “Was India involved in the 2014 Pakistan school attack?”
      Chalu ho gayi Jihadiyon ki nautanki !
      Makes me really sad because little children are being used. Such filth!

      Not that any of this matters but people with some shame left have this to say:

      Former senator Farhatullah Babar, a senior leader of the opposition Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) tweeted that Yusuf “saying that APS mastermind was in touch with an Indian consulate during attack is a tall claim”.

      “Proof must be placed before world and Pakistani people. [Yusuf] must not be seen parroting intel narrative without proof. @YusufMoeed credibility at stake,” Babar added.

      Civil society activist Marvi Sirmed, in a tweet, noted that Yusuf had said he has undeniable solid evidence about the school attack, including “verified tapes of 8 phone calls”, and questioned “why this was hidden from the people of Pakistan for so long?”

      Several social media users from Peshawar, where the school attack continues to be an emotional issue, were critical of the claim that India was somehow linked to the terrorist incident.

  18. Hmm. I mean i am ok either way, folks who do nationalistic/patriotic stuff living in the west for their country, or folks who feel they would do nationalistic/patriotic stuff leaving the west and moving to their “home countries” . Its just that i find living in the west i find the intra battles b/w these groups amusing.

    For example, Indian patriots shitting on long distance patriotism of the western Indians, Western Indians themselves now shitting on each other ( Democratic/liberal Indians vs Hindu right Indians) without realizing the irony of it all.


    “We had first heard about Chetna Devi in connection with Shallu, the poster figure for love jihad. Chetna had helped the family “rescue” Shallu from marrying Kalim. She has provided similar services to many Hindus families, all cases of love jihad. In her quest to save Hinduism, in fact, Chetna is particularly concerned with love jihad.”

    I had no idea Hindu right-wingers lived in such fear of Muslim sexual prowess.


      “Ankit Saxena was allegedly stabbed last week by the family of his Muslim girlfriend on a busy street in Delhi.”

      I would say an order of magnitude more Hindu women marry Muslims vs the other way round the reasons is simple, (in this matter) Muslims (would be Sasur ji and Sale sahib) are assholes and society accepts that they are irredeemable.

      Story about my school friend, he called up a Zaidi girl in our school to ask about how was she doing? Her father picked up the phone and out of nowhere shouted at the poor fellow warning him not to call again. Her brother shows up at our school and slaps this fellow, all this for a phonecall ! The girl was shipped to Aligarh for a 2 year diploma after highschool and married at 18.

      Story 2: College fellow Jain guy in India dated a Muslim girl for 5 years. End result: her family found out, beat the girl and married her off.

      Story 3: Graduate school senior in the US. 10+ years of relationship with a Bengali Muslim girl, went to school, college and grad school together. Girl’s mother and guy’s family knew and accepted. Would have been father in law found out, results as expected.

      Story 4: School friends, Muslim sisters, father was a mild mannered nice guy. Both sisters were (casually) dating Hindu guys. Some random Muslim uncle spots the elder one with a guy, all hell breaks loose. Both get married off hurriedly.

    2. My anecdotal experience suggests that Hindus from the Meerut area are highly likely to have right-wing views (even over-the-top ones.) Not sure if it’s because they are unusually sensitive or if the local Muslims indeed behave that badly, or a combination…

      1. Western UP has some of the highest Muslim population percentage in the country and growing fast. You’ll see more of this kind of violence from both sides coming out in the near future.

  20. At the end its underlines the anxiety regarding population domination and its electoral impact. In different regions it takes different forms. In India’s heartland its religious conversion vis-v Christians.

    Not a very specific thing to Hindus i would add. Same anxiety runs in Kashmir (within muslims), Ladakh (Buddhists) and North East (among Christians) . In reality i would say 80 percent of India (of all faiths) would ban inter religious marriages if they could.

  21. What do you folks here think is the motivation for the likes of Karan Thapar to allow blatant Pakistani lies on their show?
    Unlike the Hindu right I don’t buy that all of these left leaning anchors and journalists are anti-India or pro-Pakistan. Anti-Modi and very woke, liberal for sure but not necessarily unpatriotic.
    Are they just stupid and get carried away by their own left liberal image?
    Is the overriding Modi/BJP hate?
    What is it? I can’t seem to understand it at all.
    Also, I’d like to believe that Karan Thapar has a tinge of regret about this episode especially regarding the Paki NSA’s blatant lies about linking the APS school massacre to India (6 years after the fact, with 0 evidence)..

    PS: Another one of my comments is stuck in moderation

    1. If u watch the interview its pretty combative. I (and perhaps even Moeed) wasn’t expecting such a hostile reception. Thapar come across as Arnab, as they come.

      On APS thing, i dont think Indians of any kind need to feel sorry/regret. If the people of Pakistan are that gullible that their NSA can use the death of school children to score a political point, then its their problem.

      1. ok, haven’t watched the episode – will check it out.
        I meant Karan feeling regret about giving the Paki a platform to spout wild lies about the APS massacre. Pakia has the worst, most mercenary and unscrupulous elite of all countries.

        1. As i said apart from the Indo Pak issues (which is mostly , he said, she said), the thing which Moeed will regret is the Ughuyr issue, especially in US.

          “All I’m saying is that if a guy with a PhD in poli sci is forced to say something like “the Uighurs are a non-issue,” then you have probably taken the wrong position on that line. Even accounting for his position and his job title, he could have handled it differently. He could have said something like “It is the position of the government of Pakistan that this is an internal matter for China, and as China’s friend and ally, we do not comment on its internal matters.”

          In a closely parallel universe, Moeed could easily have finagled this SAPM gig into a cushy “Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations” type position a year or two down the road. Maybe he still can. But “the Uighurs are a non issue” is the type of sentence that follows you around”

          1. You understimate Paki elite deviousness..He can always have a change of heart or explain away his comments.
            It’s not for nothing that Pakistan has been able to play all sides for this long, especially the US


    “ Economic reforms enacted during the ten day monsoon session ending September 23 firmly establish Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s credentials as a reformist PM. His record now rivals those of Prime Ministers Narasimha Rao and Atal Bihari Vajpayee and surpasses by a wide margin that of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during his entire ten year tenure.“


    As I had said earlier the Modi Govt would drink from the poisoned chalice for now , so that it can hit back the states later. The GST compensation mechanism will run till 2022, after which the states have to pull their own burden , freeing the Centre to squeeze the states further. And it will leave 2 full years for the Modi govt to go full throttle, b4 the nxt election.

    And if there is something which we know about the Modi govt, is that it never forgets or forgives…..

  24. I wrote about Indian overseas students being part of the top 1% in an earlier Open Thread. It’s hard to get up-to-date wage data on India but I managed to dig up fairly
    recent numbers (2017-18).


    Basically, if you make more than 50K per month in India, you’re in the top 1.5%. Even if you allow for black incomes and loans, plus some amount of family support, the group going is very elite. Even those who select community colleges.

    I’m sort of interested in that group. Those who go to community colleges abroad are not the top 0.1% of India but definitely top 3% and likely closer to top 1%, yet are going into schools seen as sub-standard for most of the aspirational Western middle-class. They see their own status transform almost overnight and take a huge hit in the process. There’s a lot of sociological material there.

    1. Overall you are correct in that they are from relatively well todo familiies, but not as much as you would suggest.

      Keep the following in mind…

      1) Need to compare some combo of family wealth, family income, and individual income.

      2) The gross savings rate in India is approx. 30% (not sure about 2020 due to covid).

      3) Also Indian students work, sometimes under the table, depending on the terms of their visa. They also often live in cheap shared accommodations.
      Here is a video about the indian student experience in English, in her own words arriving with $1000 and making $120 an hour in Aus. Lots of guides like this on youtube…

  25. A girl I know recently got Rhioplasty, she didn’t say(obviously!) but it is obvious. The effects are cosmetically dramatic (Gods honest truth is that her face looks prettier). I had known some people who got hair transplant(men) or lyposuction(men and women) done in India and it never felt as dramatic or out of the ordinary, almost felt like treating a medical condition. But now I think I can never look at any very pretty woman in the gym or the yoga studio and not think that she has had a bunch of things surgically done. One look at any older lady in the grocery store and my mind goes ‘Botox’, ‘Filler’, ‘chin/face lift’, … idk why this never occurred to me earlier. Any clue how common is getting plastic surgery? how common among Indians in the US? definitely not common in B-tier cities and down in India.

Comments are closed.

Brown Pundits