250 thoughts on “Open Thread – 08/20/2021 – Brown Pundits

    1. She is a prof at Oxford!

      Eventually humanities will loose all credibility just like (modern) art has.

      There will still be money to be made but ‘normal’ people will start seeing the banality and futility of this circlejerk.

      Bhadralok, Mallu and Tam-Brams are ‘trans-racials’ i.e. gora people’s souls (mistakenly) born inside the bodies of brown people.

      1. Jhumpa Lahiri now describes her as Bengali-Italian. Her pronouns are ‘iish…..’ (in Aishwariya’s tone in Devdas)

        1. I don’t think it is about assimilation either. Where is the assimilation when Tam-Brams go to Kenya or Singapore or when Bengalis were in Burma or even right next to Santhals. A lot of Indians in the US have this innate desire to bleach themselves, to become white, or atleast raise their children to be white. This is especially true of the Bengalis. Brown people fresh off the boat with the fakest accents are almost always Bengali.

          Choosing to wipe their asses with paper, blaspheming against our true lord and savior ‘the bidet’.

          Gora inside! **tin-tin** (intel ad sound)

        2. Reminds me of incident from my undergrad.

          Was talking to this Indian guy from Mumbai (iirc) with a thick Indian accent and he asked me if I spoke Hindi ?

          I proudly said I can speak conversational Hindi (my family is gujju)

          He even more proudly said he only spoke English (his family is goan)

          I was struck by how strange it was that he was proud of the fact that he was monolingual in English and not speaking any Indian language despite being born there, and even more sad that he was so proud of speaking English with a thick Apu-like accent, which is considered comical in America.

          I didn’t really interact with that guy after that.

    2. Apparently Ms Oxford whats-her-name does not watch much porn. I do, say about half hour every two days or so, just porn hub.

      One gets prompted for I guess the popular searches. Desi, Desi Village, Arab, Latina, Dark Latina, Gypsy the brown list seems endless.

      Also quite likely, Ms Oxford whats-her-name is dating or married to a white guy. Seems like these woke South South Asians wring their hands about not being the desirable types. Maybe not to their own.

  1. On the genetics angle, a small contribution:

    Ran mclust on some mds output (global; all regions represented).

    Regarding our topic of interest, there are 5 clusters.

    Cluster 1 includes an Iron Age sample from Turkmenistan, all the Pamiri East Iranians (Shugnan, Rushan, and Ishkashimi), the Yaghnobi people of Tajikistan, the Tajiks proper of Tajikistan, the Panjsheri Tajiks of Afghanistan, Ghilzai Pashtuns from Afghanistan, Durrani Pashtuns from Afghanistan, Khostwal Pashtun from Afghanistan, Commentator/Seinundzeit, Mohmand Pashtun from Pakistan, the Tarklani Pashtun from Pakistan, Uthmankhel Pashtun from Pakistan, a majority of Yusufzai Pashtun from Pakistan (like 60%), a majority of the HGDP “Pathans” (like 60%), Urmur East Iranian from Pakistan, the Kho Dards from Chitral, and the Jat and Ror Indo-Aryans from Haryana.

    ^ We could call the above cluster “Central Asian Iranic”, since it includes all Tajiks with little-to-no East Asian, all unadmixed Pashtuns (whether Afghan or Pakistani), and all other distinctive Iranic pops in Central and South Asia (the Iron Age sample from Turkmenistan; the Urmur Iranian speaker from Pakistan). The only odd members of the group are the Jat and Ror of Haryana; definitely a result of their boatloads of steppe ancestry, and very low AASI. Kho are also Indo-Aryan, but they’re geographically Central Asian (so I wouldn’t consider their membership in this cluster unusual).

    ^ Cluster 2 includes Punjabi Jatts, Saidu_Sharif_IA, Khatri, Gujarati Brahmins, Kamboj, Gujjar, Punjabi_Lahore, the Kohistani, the Kalash, some of the Yusufzai Pashtun (like 40% of them), and some of the HGDP Pathans (like 40% of them).

    Clearly a northwest South Asian cluster.

    Cluster 3 includes Brahmin_UP, Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu, Kshatriya, Kanjar, Mala, Madiga, Maratha, Saidu_Sharif_IA_o, Piramalai, Pallan, Pulliyar, and Paniya.

    ^ The true “Indian cline” cluster.

    Cluster 4 includes Persians from Bandar Abbas in Iran, the Makrani, the Baloch, and the Brahui.

    ^ We could either call it the “Balochistani” cluster, or the “southeastern West Asian” cluster.

    And cluster 5 includes the Bonda and Birhor; an Indian Austroasiatic cluster.

    I’m calling these clusters “1 through 5”, but that’s not the original numbering from the output (obviously).

    Furthermore, if anyone is curious about Mclust itself, here’s some material:

    https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/01/comparison-of-mclust-with-finestructure.html

    https://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/fastibd-analysis-of-balkanswest-asia.html

    Concerning the output itself: the results above indicate that Pashtuns in both Afghanistan and Pakistan constitute parts of the “Iranic” Central Asian continuum.

    ^ Looking at other results across various methods, Pashtuns are close to the Pamiris, and virtually identical to the Afghan Tajiks with minimal East Asian-admix (the western Pashtuns resemble the eastern Farsiwan, and the eastern Pashtuns are nearly identical to the Panjsheri/Pagmani/Laghmani Tajiks).

    Using ancient pops to model Pashtuns:

    Western Pashtuns

    47.4% BMAC
    27.4% Steppe_MLBA
    20.8% IVC_periphery
    4.4% MNG_North_N

    Central Pashtuns

    39.4% BMAC
    36.4% Steppe_MLBA
    20.2% IVC_periphery
    4% MNG_North_N

    Eastern Pashtuns

    33% BMAC
    32.8% IVC_periphery
    30% Steppe_MLBA
    4.2% MNG_North_N

    ^ MNG_North_N is East Asian. Steppe admix ranges between a little under 30% to a little over 35%, IVC-related admix ranges between 20-30%. Biggest chunk of genomic ancestry is always from something very close to BMAC (the pre-Indo-Iranian civilization of Central Asia).

    Assuming that IVC_periphery is 25% AASI, that would put the western and central Pashtuns at 5% AASI, and the eastern Pashtuns at 7.5% AASI.

    ^ Of course, that’s assuming that “AASI” is real. Automated qpgraph suggests different.

    If anyone is curious, I could post the dotfile for some representative qpgraph topologies. Very interesting stuff (and very different from the picture that we get in the current literature).

    1. Isn’t it arbitrary to end cluster II at Guju Brahmins, when UP brahmins aren’t that far off from them? I would imagine (2/2 to disparate component mixing) that there is more distance between groups in cluster II than any of the other clusters. It seems strange to make it one giant cluster.

      Phenotype of Jats and Rors of Haryana is really stand out as well in the groupings. When I’ve been to Delhi, yes some can pass among others in their group but most pass fine among N Indian general castes.

      1. thewarlock,

        That’s a fair point.

        For what it’s worth though, Mclust “discovers” the clusters itself.

    2. “Assuming that IVC_periphery is 25% AASI, that would put the western and central Pashtuns at 5% AASI, and the eastern Pashtuns at 7.5% AASI.”

      Which IVC_periphery component did you use? I thought Eastern Pashtuns get between 15-20% AASI. Besides, Western and Central Pashtuns get around 10%. Tajiks get low AASI.

      1. Son Goku,

        All the samples.

        Assuming that AASI is something real (which I no longer think is true), then 15-25% are northwestern South Asian biraderi numbers.

        The Haryana Jats and Rors are approximately 15% (a little less, actually), Sikh Jatts and Khatri are approximately 20% (a little less, actually), and Pakistani Punjabis are usually approximately 25%, barring Christians (35%, in their case).

        5% AASI for the western and central Pashtun, and 7-8% AASI for the eastern Pashtuns, is typical for what one sees across various methods. Far eastern Iranian Persians are also 5%, while in the far western end of the Iranian plateau you see 1-2% AASI.

        ^ But again, all of this will eventually become obsolete, in a very big way.

        I’ll post a dotfile later tonight, to show you what I mean.

        1. What is break down for tam Brahms and iyers in the model. I cluster with them. Is it like Harrapa?

          1. thewarlock,

            So this is the dotfile:

            digraph G {
            size = “7.5,10”;
            Rrl -> Rrlb [ label = “3” ];
            Rrl -> Rrly [ label = “6” ];
            Rrlb -> Russia_Sunghir3SG [ label = “125” ];
            Rrlb -> Russia_Kostenki14SG [ label = “124” ];
            Rrly -> admixm [ style=dotted, label = “55%” ];
            Rrly -> Italy_South_HG_Ostuni1 [ label = “108” ];
            admixm -> Italy_MesolithicSG [ label = “130” ];
            root -> Rrl_i [ label = “47” ];
            root -> rootk [ label = “63” ];
            Rrl_i -> Rrrlrlrv [ label = “23” ];
            Rrl_i -> South_Africa_2200BPSG [ label = “124” ];
            Rrrlrlrd -> admixy [ style=dotted, label = “6%” ];
            Rrrlrlrd -> Vindija_NeanderthalDG [ label = “16” ];
            admixh -> Rrrlrc [ label = “4” ];
            Rrrlrlrv -> Rrl_ia [ label = “17” ];
            Rrrlrlrv -> Rrl_j [ label = “11” ];
            admixy -> Romania_Oase [ label = “127” ];
            Rrl_ia -> admixc [ style=dotted, label = “64%” ];
            Rrl_ia -> admixv [ label = “14” ];
            Rrl_j -> admixx [ style=dotted, label = “10%” ];
            Rrl_j -> Ethiopia_4500BP_publishedSG [ label = “122” ];
            admixc -> Morocco_Iberomaurusian [ label = “144” ];
            admixv -> admixvv [ label = “2” ];
            admixv -> admixmy [ style=dotted, label = “55%” ];
            admixx -> Israel_PPNB_ti [ label = “3” ];
            admixvv -> admixh [ style=dotted, label = “97%” ];
            admixvv -> admixq [ style=dotted, label = “30%” ];
            admixq -> Indian_GreatAndaman_100BPSG [ label = “131” ];
            admixmy -> Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_d [ label = “0” ];
            Rrrlrc -> Rrrrrr [ label = “0” ];
            Rrrlrc -> Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG_publishedDG [ label = “134” ];
            rootw -> root [ label = “48” ];
            rootw -> ChimpREF [ label = “48” ];
            Italy_South_HG_Ostuni1_e -> Mongolia_East_N [ label = “122” ];
            Italy_South_HG_Ostuni1_e -> Taiwan_Hanben_IA [ label = “124” ];
            Rrrrrr -> Rrlbq [ label = “2” ];
            Rrrrrr -> Rrrlh [ label = “7” ];
            Rrlbq -> admixy [ style=dotted, label = “94%” ];
            Rrlbq -> admix [ style=dotted, label = “85%” ];
            Rrrlh -> Rrrll [ label = “4” ];
            Rrrlh -> Rrrrrrf [ label = “1” ];
            Israel_PPNB_ti -> Israel_PPNB_tim [ label = “2” ];
            Israel_PPNB_ti -> Israel_PPNB_t [ label = “2” ];
            admix -> admixvt [ style=dotted, label = “87%” ];
            Rrrll -> admixaz [ style=dotted, label = “82%” ];
            Rrrll -> admixyr [ style=dotted, label = “78%” ];
            Rrrrrrf -> Rrrrrrfr [ label = “0” ];
            Rrrrrrf -> Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all [ label = “128” ];
            admixaz -> admixazh [ label = “17” ];
            admixyr -> Russia_Yana_UPSG [ label = “130” ];
            Rrlbqd -> Rrlbqdel [ label = “2” ];
            Rrlbqd -> Rrlbqdelk [ label = “11” ];
            Rrlbqdel -> admixq [ style=dotted, label = “70%” ];
            Rrlbqdel -> admixs [ style=dotted, label = “96%” ];
            Rrlbqdelk -> admixyr [ style=dotted, label = “22%” ];
            Rrlbqdelk -> China_Tianyuan [ label = “113” ];
            admixs -> Italy_South_HG_Ostuni1_e [ label = “7” ];
            Israel_PPNB_tim -> Turkey_Epipaleolithic [ label = “123” ];
            Israel_PPNB_tim -> Israel_PPNB_tin [ label = “24” ];
            Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_d -> Rrrlrrllrs [ label = “3” ];
            Rrrlrrll -> admixa [ label = “19” ];
            Rrrlrrll -> Rrrlrrllr [ label = “1” ];
            Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_ds -> admixs [ style=dotted, label = “4%” ];
            Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_ds -> Tajikistan_C_Sarazm [ label = “99” ];
            admixj -> Rrrlrrl [ style=dotted, label = “73%” ];
            admixj -> admixsr [ style=dotted, label = “83%” ];
            Rrrlrrl -> Georgia_KotiasSG [ label = “131” ];
            admixa -> Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2 [ label = “109” ];
            admixa -> admixak [ label = “61” ];
            admixak -> admix [ style=dotted, label = “15%” ];
            admixak -> admixaz [ style=dotted, label = “18%” ];
            Israel_PPNB_t -> admixm [ style=dotted, label = “45%” ];
            Israel_PPNB_t -> admixmy [ style=dotted, label = “45%” ];
            admixazh -> Russia_MA1_HGSG [ label = “112” ];
            admixazh -> admixsr [ style=dotted, label = “17%” ];
            Rrrrrrfr -> Rrl [ label = “2” ];
            Rrrrrrfr -> Rrrrrrfw [ label = “12” ];
            Rrrrrrfw -> admixx [ style=dotted, label = “90%” ];
            Rrrrrrfw -> Rrrlrrl [ style=dotted, label = “27%” ];
            Israel_PPNB_tin -> admixc [ style=dotted, label = “36%” ];
            Israel_PPNB_tin -> admixg [ style=dotted, label = “51%” ];
            admixsr -> Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_ds [ label = “31” ];
            rootk -> Rrrlrlrd [ label = “9” ];
            rootk -> admixh [ style=dotted, label = “3%” ];
            Rrrlrrllr -> admixj [ label = “2” ];
            Rrrlrrllr -> Iran_Wezmeh_NSG [ label = “130” ];
            admixg -> Israel_PPNB [ label = “126” ];
            Rrrlrrllrs -> Rrrlrrll [ label = “6” ];
            admixvt -> Rrlbqd [ label = “8” ];
            Rrrlrrllrs -> admixg [ style=dotted, label = “49%” ];
            Iran_ShahrISokhta_BA2_d -> admixvt [ style=dotted, label = “13%” ];
            }

            If you post it here, you’ll see the topology visualized:

            http://viz-js.com/

          2. thewarlock,

            If you’d rather read a summary of the topology, here’s an explanation which I posted at a genetics forum:

            “By now, I’ve had the pleasure of creating hundreds of topologies with automated qpGraph; it’s fun, if one has some leisure for it (as many have realized, it’s a time-intensive process. Your first graphs will always be nonsense).

            And upon examining that body of work, I’m struck by the stability of automated qpGraph; there are only so many “solutions” to the problems posed by the fitting of ancient populations onto a representational structure that revolves around drift/fission, but with allowance for a varying number of “admixture events” (I find the phrase completely inadequate. In my head, the phrase “admixture events” brings to mind images of sudden/abrupt melding between highly divergent lineages. And frankly, I just don’t find this to be an accurate picture of things. In my own view, the “Truth” of what happened probably involved continuous low-level fusion across spatio-temporal clines, with only incomplete differentiation pivoting around geographical fringes and refugia. And I say “incomplete” because the differentiation in question never reached subspecific levels. Like no divergence of the magnitude seen between Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis).

            ^ I mean, you can play around with the populations; you can tweak the maxmiss parameter; you can try the same graph with afprod = TRUE, or afprod = FALSE; even more.

            ^^ But no matter what, if you let it run for a few days, and if you make sure to optimize till it just won’t improve (that is, optimize till the point where the only way, and I mean literally the only way, to improve the score would be by allowing for more admixture events)… then, if that’s what you’re doing, you’ll always see the same types of patterns in the topologies.

            Two weeks ago I finally completed the “big one”; sent it over to Dr. Maier (a great guy, excellent scientist; always a tremendous help, and always willing to discuss).

            But below, you’ll find a dotfile for another smaller topology that I completed way back, which basically shows the same broad patterns as the big one (not exactly identical, but similar). For those who don’t feel any interest in an examination of said graph, I’ll summarize below. (afprod was set to true)

            Familiar patterns/constructs/admixture events expected from the literature:

            1. 3% Neanderthal-related admixture in Eurasians.

            2. Additional 6% Neanderthal-related admixture in Romania_Oase. (admixture is more similar to Neanderthal_Vindjia than whatever Neanderthal-related admixture is baked into Eurasians, which is a beautiful result).

            3. Oase and East Eurasians have a thing/are a thing (Oase was not ancestral to West Eurasians, despite living in West Eurasia).

            4. CHG is strongly related to ancient Iranian plateau/southern Central Asian/northern South Asian populations, but yet also has a very unambiguous affinity to something European-yet-also-Anatolian/Levantine, which shows up as 27% admixture on a base that’s related to Iran_N (Dzudzuana would play a starring role here, if it was included in the graph).

            5. Israel_PPNB is a fusion between the Anatolian/Levantine and Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian group.

            6. Yana has ENA admixture.

            7. Yana and MA1 have a thing/are a thing.

            8. People like the Onge and East Asians have a thing/are a thing.

            9. Tajikistan_Sarazm has an additional affinity towards MA1, besides whatever is going on between all of the ancient West Asians/Central Asians/South Asians and MA1. (shows up as 17% ANE admixture, on a base related to Iran_N, and quite related to the primary base for CHG).

            Somewhat unfamiliar patterns/constructs/admixture events:

            1. The Onge are partially “Basal Eurasian”.

            2. This “Basal Eurasian” ancestry is a very important stream in the ancestry of ancient Iranian plateau/Central Asian/South Asian populations (and thus also for CHG). (Explains the affinity between the Onge and all of the West Eurasian pops from Iran to northern India)

            3. This “Basal Eurasian” ancestry is probably better described as “North African”. In fact, the Iberomarusians are mostly this. (explains the odd signals in d-stats between the contemporary Onge or contemporary South Indians and contemporary North Africans. Also might explain y-dna haplogroup D in the Onge)

            Very unfamiliar patterns/constructs/admixture events:

            1. ENA populations are partially West Eurasian, and the West Eurasian stream of ancestry is clearly tied to the Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian group of ancient populations. Something related to Indus_periphery admixed with IUP-type populations to create the older stream of ENA-related pops, and then something akin to Tajikistan_Sarazm admixes into East Asians proper. (Kale recently posted some stats that should assuage any concerns about this being nonsensical; the stats constitute interesting evidence for exactly what this topology is showing: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread….329#post779329)

            2. MA1/ANE is partially ancient Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian, on a base that’s closely related to Yana (Yana is not partially ancient Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian; Yana is partially ENA). The primary ancestry for MA1 is from a very diverged branch in the West Eurasian part of the tree (“barely” West Eurasian).

            3. Unambiguously-African admixture in the Anatolian/Levantine group. Again, the Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian stream of populations have an affinity that is more ambiguous: some may prefer to call it “African” (myself included), some may prefer to hold on tight to the phrase “Basal Eurasian”. Others might like “Ancestral North African”. But in the case of the Anatolian/Levantine group, it’s undoubtedly an African affinity (East African. Could explain y-DNA haplogroup E in the Levant, and constitutes food for thought with respect to haplogroup D in the Onge, who as a reminder are construed as 30% “Ancestral North African/Basal Eurasian”). But the overwhelming majority of their ancestry is something related to the Paleolithic European “West Eurasians”, and tied to that extra affinity that distinguishes CHG from ancient Iranians/South Asians (again, Dzudzuana would clarify things).

            4. WHG is a mix between Anatolian and Ostuni1. A beautiful result, since Italy_Mesolithic is the most “WHG” of all the WHG, and Ostuni1 is a Paleolithic Italian.

            5. No AASI (no unique type of ENA for South Asia and Iran_N). West Eurasian ancestry in all ENA, and the “African/Basal Eurasian” ancestry in Andaman that is shared with ancient Iranian/Central Asian/South Asian populations… that’s all that is needed.

            And that’s about the size of it.

            Now, am I saying that all of the above is the “Truth” of what really happened?

            ^ No, because I don’t think a tree of human populations is the right way to describe how humans are related to each other. The only “Truth” in this field is that we are all mixtures, and that to a great extent we are mixtures between each other. Everything else is not a matter of being right… it’s a matter of being “less wrong”. 15 “admixture edges” isn’t even close to reality.

            ^^ But! What I will say with confidence is that this is one of the most “less wrong” topologies you’ll ever see with all of these populations/with only 15 admixture events. And I say that with confidence because I’ve tried hundreds of these, and they all end up showing broadly similar patterns. Furthermore, the tree makes spatio-temporal sense, and can explain many patterns that we’ve seen for years both outside and inside the context of Admixtools.”

            All of the above is a description of the topology which I’ve posted.

          3. Sein,

            That is a lot of info to process. But very captivating stuff.

            I would just add here that the Basal Eurasian in Onge you talk about may not necessarily be North African.

            There is a strong argument that can be made for a back migration from SE Asia that apparently populated the whole of Eurasia. Here is a recent paper advocating it.

            https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-020-02204-9

            We also know that the Onge cline in South Asia goes from South to North, further supporting the theory for the eastern origins of this basal ancestry.

            Factoring in such a ‘very real’ possibility how would you re-evaluate the data ? Quite frankly, there is a lot to process here, and I am not even sure if I have a legit argument.

          4. Jaydeepsinh Rathod,

            That is a very fascinating possibility.

            When it comes to scenarios like these, one really is confronted by the fact of our lack of aDNA from South Asia proper.

            ^ Generally speaking, I think Mesolithic and Paleolithic data from southern regions would add much needed clarity, and allow us to decide between the various possible conceptualizations.

            ^^ But I do think that what you’ve described is a serious/substantive possibility.

            And one thing is for sure: the current picture we have in the aDNA literature is merely a product of narrow focus.

            If you examine any qpgraph with aDNA (in the current literature), there’s never an attempt at “going big”.

            ^^^ If such attempts at “going big” were made, they would always end up with comprehensive topologies broadly similar to the one which I’ve posted. The patterns are fairly consistent.

  2. @Razib or anyone who knows
    Which one is the best proxy for Iran_neolithic?

    And which one is the best(simulated or not) source for AASI? “S AASI Sim” or “Simulated AASI by DMXX” or others?

    And why does “Onge” appear to be the largest South Asian component every time though Onge is not a good proxy for AASI or any other South Asian component?

    And for Eastern Asian components, should only “Dai(China) average” be used or should “Xiongnu East Asian average” also be used along with “Dai”?

    1. “Which one is the best proxy for Iran_neolithic?”

      Shahr_I_Sokhta BA1 for most South Asians, I believe? However, it is about 7% AASI.

      “And why does “Onge” appear to be the largest South Asian component every time though Onge is not a good proxy for AASI or any other South Asian component?”

      Onge has East Asian affinity thus for groups like Bengalis, for example, it comes as a large integrant if used as a proxy for AASI.

      1. “Shahr_I_Sokhta BA1 for most South Asians, I believe?”
        No. Simulated AASI becomes the largest component if Shahr_I_Sokhta BA1 is used as the only proxy for Iran_neolitihic. Even using “Iran Late Neolithic(5748 BCE Iran)” as the only proxy gives more than 50% AASI.

        Also using Dai(China) gives at most only 10% Eastern Asian admixture in Bangladeshis and in most cases even much less: 5-7%.

        You previously said that Bangladeshis have only 30% AASI. But it appears to be around 37-40% usually.

        1. “No. Simulated AASI becomes the largest component if Shahr_I_Sokhta BA1 is used as the only proxy for Iran_neolitihic. Even using “Iran Late Neolithic(5748 BCE Iran)” as the only proxy gives more than 50% AASI.”

          That depends on which simulated AASI you take into account. Since they are ghost populations, one should take the scores with a grain of salt.
          For example, using AASI_Sim (NW) I got this:

          Bengali_Bangladesh
          Distance: 0.02192797
          42.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
          35.8 AASI
          11.8 Dai
          10.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA

          Eastern_Bangladesh
          Distance: 0.02834319
          41.1 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1
          31.2 AASI
          14.5 Dai
          13.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA

          Simulated AASI NW is from SiS BA2 and 3. They are the farthest AASI from the Indian cline.

          “You previously said that Bangladeshis have only 30% AASI. But it appears to be around 37-40% usually.”

          As you can see, Eastern Bangladeshis (Individuals from Chittagong, Comilla, and Sylhet) are slightly less AASI and slightly more East Asian and Steppe.
          However, the meaning of AASI itself remains a question mark. ATM we can assume Bengalis are within 30-36%. And the AASI was most likely not a single population.

    1. Bhai such articles are like the meaningless ones in the Foreign Policy(FP) magazine. Our navy is too small and the gap with China is widening.

      Here are simple facts:

      1) India has two half decent shipyards. Mazagaon and GRSE. Both are public enterprises and their order books full till the end of times. Neither are very cost or time efficient.
      2) Tier two we have Goa, Cochin, and Hindustan. Hindustan is a burden on our country, Cochin takes forever and has egregious cost over-runs beating and Goa so far has been too small. All three are treated like heir’s to India’s treasury.
      3) Then come Anil’s Pipavav and L&T’s Kattupalli. GoI has already destroyed Pipavav and is actively trying to bankrupt L&T.

      Everyone except L&T is always busy as they are behind schedule. We take so long to build ships there are no physical docks to build ships! There are hardly any engineers or yards that lie vacant!

      Answer is private shipbuilding. Infront of my eyes I saw Western India, Bharati, ABG and Alcock Ashdown destroyed in the last decade. Indian shipbuilding has been through a bloodbath, no one will invest a penny here. In a country like India trading (bania) beats manufacturing (lohar) every single time.

      https://theprint.in/opinion/shipbuilding-is-our-maritime-sectors-missed-opportunity-it-needs-its-own-ministry/701101/

      1. I think the first half of the article is on point. We are getting overtly obsessed over events in Afghanistan. Whether better or for worse india has to live with a military and terrorist threat from the west. No point trying to “balance” it.

        Also I am not as pessimistic on India’s sea power. For whatever it’s worth india does have enough capability to stand its own in the neighborhood seas. Yes, it’s has no power to project influence in south east Asia and all. But if India’s can match China in Indian Ocean than its task for QUAD is done. For all China”s marine might it cannot fight in multiple threatres.

        1. In pitched naval battles even huge capital ships get knocked out left-and-right, entire fleets get destroyed in a couple of days. We need surprise weapons, we need numbers, strength to lose 10,000 sailors, 10 capital ships/subs in 2 days and still fight to win. In near future we will be outnumbered 10:1 in submarines, similar numbers for frigates and destroyers. We must build faster and cheaper. Japanese build aircraft carriers for a billion USD in three years, we build frigates that weigh a third and take nine years to build for a billion USD each!

          Ditto for Air Force, we just don’t have the numbers. This is very dangerous and has real world consequences. It costs 100 crore more(~450 crore) to assemble a Su 30 in HAL Nagpur than it would cost to buy it fully built from Russia (~350 crore).

          Also browbeating Sri Lanka into submission on restricting naval access is a must. Otherwise these genius people will one day let Chinese carriers and nuclear subs dock at their ports and help in getting us all colonized again.

          1. @ Bhimrao

            I have heard the argument that conventional navies are just white elephants and don’t make much sense during a war when we have missiles that can sink them for a lot cheaper than it takes to build the ships.

            https://youtu.be/z1ln9_7eemU
            This is one place I have heard that argument ( he starts talking about this after 2:20)

          2. Na bhai, yeh sab bakchodi hai. A big navy is essential if we want to remain sovereign. Sea is vast, there are counters to every type of anti-ship weapons. If you don’t like ships get submarines, but sea is the biggest battlefield of all.

            A IAF C-17 can carry ~7.5 tons in one go, INS Tabar can carry 400 tons and while doing so can take on Pakistani navy and air force all by itself. Both cost about the same. INS Tabar will serve for 40 years and costs almost nothing to maintain.

            Navies have scale, Air Forces have pomp. Air forces are tactical pinpricks, Navies are strategic hammers.

  3. Akhilesh Yadav, OBC Leader, ex-CM of Uttar Pradesh and Leader of Samajwadi Party joins the “Gangetic Hindu Comedy Club”, where Saurav is Chairman.

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-i-am-a-better-hindu-than-bjp-netas-says-sp-chief-akhilesh-yadav/articleshow/85121245.cms

    Yes – you heard it right!! Akhilesh Yadav claims to be more/better hindu than Modi/Shah. Jokes apart, Akhilesh Yadav is a very hard-nosed and canny politician. He knows what he is doing. The actual joke is that many UP-ites would accept his statement. Because they no longer know what it is to be a real Hindu. Uttar Pradesh is India’s most Arabized state – where Hindus have stopped asserting their cultural dominance and have for more than 500 years played a passive submissive role to other forces in society (Deobandi, Casteist etc).

    This again is a perfect microcosm of the summation of modern India’s politics – Gangetic Hindu philosophy (Secularism/Dhimmi-tude) vs Western Hindu philosophy (Hindutva)

    Nehru, the most famous Gangetic Hindu politician in the last 100 years – was the most skilled exponent of the UP style of dhimmi Hinduism. Right off the bat after 1947, when Sardar Patel (Western Hindu Congressman) wanted state patronage for rebuilding Somnath – Nehru the dhimmi UPwallah – opposed it. Even AB Vajpayee – who hailed from UP – and belonged to the BJP, was considered a moderate face. Vajpayee once considered removing Modi from power after Godhra. LK Advani stopped it. Indian history would have been different today if that UP-wallah had had his way. You will find this divide cutting across political parties and the spectrum.

    We are going to see a repeat of Biden-Afghanistan dynamics in next year’s Uttar Pradesh Assembly Election elections. It is similar, in more ways than one.

    – Yogi Adityanath is an installed Chief Minister by the Western Hindus (Hindutva). He was a Lok Sabha MP who never fought the Legislative Assembly elections. He owes his position totally to Modi-Shah. The equivalent of Ashraf Ghani!

    – Akhilesh Yadav is the son of Mulayam Yadav, the man who famously had Kar Sevaks shot when they were on their way to Ayodhya. They have perfected a Muslim-Yadav combination in a legitimate act of coalition building. They are the sons-of-the-soil of UP. The equivalent of Taliban.

    – By the way, the Taliban derives its ideological components from the Deobandi School, a seminary in Western UP. Quite a lot of its leaders have close linkages with UP theological leaders.

    The undercurrents that are now convulsing South Asia are more connected than you think.

    1. “ Because they no longer know what it is to be a real Hindu. “

      Bro no amount of hindu rabble rousing can make south and East Indians more-Hindu. Now it’s becoming pathetic.

      It’s all in plain sight. I don’t know why u even fight all this.

      1. Save your energy, Saurav! No need to create strawmen. My post was about Western India and Gangetic regions. Its election season in UP and Akhilesh Yadav is going to drop more comedy than you do 🙂

        When UP-wallahs need to visit a temple or get a job – they catch a train to South India.

  4. What’s interesting about that Oxford Professor is that she isn’t making a typical “Woke” argument. That would be invoking her skin color as a shield to claim oppression. Her argument, whatever you may think of it, is race-neutral and even gender-neutral. I don’t see how this makes her a coconut as Bhimrao alleges. Perhaps she is just a philosopher interested in worldly affairs?

    In general, I find it fascinating how progressive Indians become once they reach Western shores. It leads to a question: are Indians naturally progressive (left to their own devices) or is it a cultural assimilation thing? Einstein used to say that without anti-Semitism, Jews would disappear as a people. I’m beginning to wonder the same thing about Hinduism vis-a-vis Islam. Without being surrounded by very large numbers of moslems, both within the country and surrounding it, is Hinduism strong enough to maintain itself through the generations? Indian diaspora is too recent in the West to make longterm studies (3rd gen+), but early clues from the 2nd gen suggest that it isn’t.

    Or perhaps Hinduism is just liberal in of itself, and without a repressive neighbourhood, it merges seamlessly within Western liberalism. Certainly, it seems to me that few groups assimilate as easily as Indians. East Asians would be the other group, but East Asians complain about the “bamboo ceiling”. Razib has shown that Indians get promoted more than whites – even accounting for SES – so it suggest a very high degree of cultural compability.

    In other words, perhaps this is less a case of a desperate Indian trying to be accepted than a case of a dyed-in-the-wool liberal in her natural element. Why should we assume that Hinduism is conservative by default? Indians often make the point that bans on homosexuality came with the British.

    1. @principia

      …Without being surrounded by very large numbers of moslems, both within the country and surrounding it, is Hinduism strong enough to maintain itself through the generations?….

      Before Islam, we had Buddhism. You will get your answer if you read Ambedkar’s treatise, who once remarked the essence of Ancient India is merely the fight between Hinduism and Buddhism.

      A lot of features we take for granted in Hinduism’s facade are ornaments taken from the Buddhist superstructure. Ashoka was the first Emperor who completely banned the slaughter and consumption of livestock “beyond reasonable limits”. The last phrase, being subjective, led to the adoption of total vegetarianism as Ancient India’s state policy.

      Even today, communists and Dalits face the same quandary that you state. When trying to agitate against beef bans, the Buddhist faction of Dalits withdraw from the battlefield, citing Ashoka’s precedent. Communists have to face the “horrible truth” that many of the supposed elitisms of Brahmins were once the orthodoxy of the Buddhist elites, who are now the inspiration of India’s downtrodden. In this sense, Hinduism is able to co-opt the characteristics of breakaway spiritual factions. So it accomodates rebels.

      In general, however, many of Hinduism’s doctrines are based on parsimony. You can agitate all you want against caste, but it is just a formalisation of nature’s inequalities. Societies without caste are now finding out that privilege extends beyond generations and benefits descendants even 400 years down the line. In this sense, Hinduism is conservative.

    2. On woke-leaning:
      “For Srinivasan, the notion that people who are fat or transgender or simply don’t fit the white and blond mould are sexually undesirable is a matter for political contestation and moral analysis.”
      She might have worded this carefully but don’t you see where she is going?

      On coconut:
      Coconut != woke, Razib is coconut and proud, and we all know how woke he is. I accuse her of being a coconut for using language/vocabulary that is alien to brown people but music to white-people’s ears to further her career.

      My first and second comment were somewhat unrelated.

      In the first one I was commenting on how could a professor at Oxford be passing this shit as academic-research (worldly-philosophy?). We spit out better ‘worldly-philosophy’ here and terminology (she was talking about ‘fuckability’, ‘hot blond slut’) on BP multiple times each week. This is not rigorous, meaningful academic research, this is a tier below bro-talk at the water-cooler, this is the shit men discuss when standing in side-by-side urinals. And I was implying that as more and more humanities professors invoke the artist’s classic trope of ‘who defines what is art?’ and use some shitty but outrageous (due to being inappropriate) work to get publicity and differentiation, ‘normal’, ‘sane’ people who work as plumbers and drivers and mechanics and bankers will stop looking up to academia as some intelligent-worthy pursuit.

    3. “Or perhaps Hinduism is just liberal in of itself, and without a repressive neighbourhood, it merges seamlessly within Western liberalism”.
      @Principia, you said it! That is exactly I have thought about it. It is the humanism shining through. West also enables the philosophical discussions that would be stifled in the current Indian cultural milieu. Kamasutra would not have been possible in today’s India.

    1. Bhai this is bullshit. Do 228 is a shit airplane in civilian market, almost NO ONE buys it, I am guessing a market of at-most 2-5 per year at best. It is ancient and it costs too much ~$8.7 million in 2011, must be more now. Compare this to the exactly same 19pax newly developed Cessna 408 ~$5.5 million in 2020.

      Even in the past everyone bought DHC Twin otter ~$5.6 million USD(2010) or the Chinese Y-12.

      (Almost) No one is going to buy it. It is a shit, overpriced plane.

      1. @Bhimrao

        More than 150 Dornier 228 are still in service today. India is the sole base for spare parts and MRO. Its a very profitable business for HAL. Germany shut down the production line – so HAL remains the sole production line in the world. Which makes it very competitive in the aviation market.

        Cessna 408 is not type certified in Europe itself, forget Asia or India. It is a brochure plane. And there are definitely no plans to type certify it for commercial aviation. Do 228 is mil certified, pasenger aviation certified and cargo certified.

        For Cessna 408 to reach the status of Do 228, it has to move mountains. Your quoted prices are useless – no-one will buy it if it is not type certified. Even insurance will not touch it.

        1. Even in the best of days unpressurized twin-turbo was a slim cut-throat market.

          “Which makes it very competitive in the aviation market.”
          “Your quoted prices are useless – no-one will buy it if it is not type certified. Even insurance will not touch it.”

          Do 228 has been available to civilians for decades. Hardly anyone ever buys it. While right next to us in Nepal and Maldives and Africa everyone loves their DHC twin Otters. Indian defense forces bought almost all the airplanes that HAL ever made. Viking sold 150+ in last 14 years, how many has HAL sold to non Indian government entities?

          Cessna 408 has Textron behind it. They will see this program through and in our lifetimes you will see 408 own this segment, poach from others and maybe even a thousand+ being produced.

          https://aviationdoctor.wordpress.com/2017/03/09/summary-the-2016-general-aviation-turboprop-deliveries-and-sales-numbers-are-out-from-gama-and-the-turboprops-were-the-only-segment-to-record-an-increase-in-deliveries-3-4-as-piston-4-9-and-e/

          Check the sales numbers. You would like the rest of this blog too.

          Also, technically Do 228 NG program is owned by General Atomics not HAL.

          1. Selling a plane to a mil-aviation user is a higher sales achievement than selling it to a civilian. Somehow it beats me as to how people think civilians have higher standards than mil-forces!!

            Mission UDAN is getting at least 40 Do-228s for Tier 2 routes. Its a big thing. Unpressurised turboprops are perfect as a cost subsititute for rail journeys between cities 500-800 kms apart. The Do-228 is also a STOL aircraft – it unlocks almost 100 towns that have semi-prepared runways.

            Again all these Cessna sales guys claim xyz cost even before their plane has cleared type certification. Super optimistic. Wait till the certifiers say too much vibration or landing shocks. Then they will be forced to add more material/redesign. Do-228 has cleared all this shit a long time ago.

            The Do-228 (with glass cockpit) costed 7 mil USD in 2018 (HAL Chairman interview). This is the advantage of having fully depreciated CNCs, autoclaves and milling machines (HAL Kanpur). Cessna 408 is a long way off from cost-competitiveness with a established supply chain and type certified plane like Do-228.

          2. “Selling a plane to a mil-aviation user is a higher sales achievement than selling it to a civilian. ”

            True but only if the competition is free and fair. And I do agree with a point you made a few thread ago about every government favoring their own aviation industry. But this favoring of HAL means that military contracts involving HAL are not fair. Therefore it comes down to civilian markets to give us some picture about the reality, it is a fact that Cessna 208 outsells and makes more profit than Mahindra’s GA8. Similarly it is a fact that DHC kicks Do228 out of the park in this segment. Sales don’t lie.

            Pulling the following straight out of thin air, correct me if I am wrong:

            Do 228 in Udan: I do not understand how will it ever make sense. The plane itself costs seven million USD. Say someone expects the plane to be paid off in 10 years, ~ $800,000 in yearly in loan repayment. Means that plane has to make ~2K per day on top of operational costs, now let us say the plane makes six 2 hour flights daily with 90 percent passenger load factor (keep in mind I am being more generous to Do 228 operator than Lord Kuber himself). So every day we sell 17*6 = 102 flight tickets. Assuming HAL’s magic number of 85K per hour to be true
            https://www.businesstoday.in/industry/aviation/story/hal-pitching-country-first-civilian-aircraft-to-prospective-buyers-90544-2017-11-03
            and flying 12 hours daily we get 12 * Rs 85,000 + 2 * $2,000 = Rs 11,70,000 in expenses and repayments everyday. Comes out about Rs 11K per passenger for a 2 hour one way ~500 km (this is a slow and noisy plane) long flight. How many UDAN sectors can sustain this? Let us assume I am a complete duffer and got it wrong by 50% even then no one in small-town India will pay 6K for a one way 500 km noisy and slow flight.

            Small planes work in Hawaii and Maldives because of rich people, they work in Nepal or Africa because of lack of options. I don’t think it can be made to work in India unless we want Air India to throw more tax-money down the drain.

          3. @Bhimrao

            The plane’s life is 25 years. 85K operating cost is at standard cruise speeds (300 kmph TAS) and follows a curve. Commercial planes stay in the air for 18 hrs a day (Roster – 5AM to 11PM). Works out to 3000 rupees for a 600 km journey.

            These towns are in the middle of nowhere and takes up to 10 hours by road for the same journey. A Volvo operator charges 1000 rupees. The question to businessmen is whether their time is worth 400 rupees per hour.

          4. 360 days/year * 25 year = 9000 days

            If the plane flies 15 hours b/w 5AM-11PM then 9000*15 = 135,000 flying hours!!! That would be one hell of a plane, can be done, but very very unlikely.

            Let us be generous and say per flight hour costs INR 50,000 instead of the already made up INR 85,000. And the plane stays in the air 16 hours a day.

            Even if we assume someone will loan me the money for 25 years and very generously allow only $800 per day (instead of 2K daily for 10 years) to be paid towards the initial loan. Then too the cost comes out 16 * 50,000 Rs + 800 $*75 Rs/$ = 800,000+ 60,000 = 860,000

            8 flights each 2 hour, flight 90% occupancy = 8*17 = 136 tickets sold.

            860,000/136 = Rs 6,300 for a one way 2 hour noisy slow flight.

            Let me be even more generous, say the plane makes 9, 2-hour trips every day.

            Then we get (18*50,000 + 800*75)/(9*17) = 960,000/153 = Rs 6,275 for a one way 2 hour noisy slow flight.

            In the best of conditions, when bank is giving you money like Bank of Japan, your crew never screws up, there is no pandemic, no down-turn, rivers of milk and . We don’t see these planes because they are not feasible.

          5. @Bhimrao

            Man!!! Seriously?? You are a finance neophyte. DCF apply karo….I wasted 30 minutes trying to figure out how in the fuck are you coming up with these inflated numbers.

            Forget planes for a minute, ok. This is an asset that is worth 50 crores today. It’s life is 25 years. Linear depreciation (tax write-off) will ensure that some where around the 12th year, it’s paper value will cease to exist for the holding company. But it’s technical life continues to be. In the first year, it’s real income only needs to be 56k rupees per day (36 tickets or 2 flights only to cover capital costs). The rest of the flights/tickets is a race against opex. Essentially 12 years of costs write down and then a cash cow for the rest of it’s life.

            Lohar banna aasan hai. Isliye Baniya baap HOTA hai!! Ambani was not a chemical engineer! Which is why he built the world’s largest refinery and made it profitable.

          6. Bhai I am a professional lohar, not a professional bania. Maybe I really don’t understand this well. India and HAL are going nowhere, let us wait and see it anyone can pull off a 19 seater airline in India and if they do learn from them.

            Hub in Lucknow/Kanpur then worthwhile destinations (~350 km away) I can think off would be Jhansi, Moradabad/Bareilly, Gwalior, Agra, Varanasi, Gorakhpur. Any longer and A320s or atr show up. I am sure 10s of places would appreciate direct flight to Delhi, places like Faizabad, Sultanpur, Jabalpur, Kota…Demand is definitely not a problem. There is scale and transportation scarcity in the north that just can’t be ignored.

  5. Very interesting thread on AltNews:

    https://twitter.com/vijaygajera/status/1428680415099834372

    Basically, AltNews is scamming their audience by claiming to need donations when they are loaded with cash. What is even more important, is that most of their funding comes from major corporations like Infosys and Wipro (via organs like IPSMF).

    I see a lot of right-wingers in India ranting about ‘marxists’, but that is an old foe. Marxists haven’t had real power in Indian institutions for many years now. It turns out the same people pushing woke ideology and woke media in India are the same as they are in the west: corporations.

    Wokism, therefore, is a neoliberal (and not marxist) ideology. It serves capital.

    1. Wokeism does serve corporatist interests at times. But at this time is allied with radical islamist elements and indirectly the powerful CCP who uses debt trap diplomacy and heavy state sponsored corporatism for its economic neo colonial endeavors.

      The real opposition is to radical islamic terrorism and PRC’s growing choke hold on the world. The US is no where near benevolent. But the CCP is just straight up scary in what it can do. America is at least diverse and divided by faction, so interest groups duke it out and will call out atrocity. The PRC is a one party authoritarian basically single ethnic state with exponentially growing power. It is scary if it becomes the main global hegemond.

  6. @thewarlock
    these jatland.com guys view themselves as god amongst men, sakas among dravidas.
    Tbh jats do have a distinct, coarse appearance but they fall well within the typical north indian range.

    1. The near enemy of AASI % that is Gujarat and UP.

      As a Hindu I actually prefer Islamist Punjabi Pakistan’s to the racist Punjabi Pakistanis. Atleast Islam has respectable core values of egalitarianism, charity, universalism etc.

      Racist Punjabi Pakistan dal khor are truely sad bunch. Brown but lighter than thou most of the time. Lolz. Truely Pathetic.

  7. https://twitter.com/suchitrav/status/1429847208506138630

    “White people are exhausting—they also beat the spirit out of all of us. Teaching us once again that whiteness is super power. You can get column space for an inane rant on foods they dislike (who the f cares), but many of us have to wage a war to get books about out WOT reviewed.”

    S-Indian wokes getting frustated by white wokes. They haven’t met their achilles heels yet though, N-Indian wokes. Once N-Indians enter woke-sphere in large numbers white wokes will repent what they have sowed…

    1. A friend of mine from Jammu (where Bakshi lives) recounts meeting him in person in his early 20s, ‘He very loudly talked and talked… talked over others, interrupted, had no patience to listen to anyone other than himself, used language unfitting for a retired Indian Army general in public, relied on Indian-uncle-ji tropes and came of as a rude, overbearing, disrespectful, really dumb person’

      My friend is physically very fit and from a very famous soldier, Lt. Triveni Singh’s (who was posthumously decorated with Ashok Chakra) extended family, maybe he didn’t sign up for the NDA fearing he might have to work with the likes of Gen. Bakshi. The current CDS is a retard too.

      1. I have a different story, one of batchmates who joined NDA said he met him rather frequently, and asked him about his ‘public persona’. Dont know how much truth there is , but he replied he has cultivated it for TV and in real life he is opposite of that. Meaning he can have a rational discussion without shouting and stuff…

  8. I think Pakistan is going to dominate India for the next 15 years, much like it did till the 90s.

    With Afghanistan in the bag and Chinese tailwinds behind them, it can dial down the resource sinkage on India. Idiots like Modi will war monger but Imran Khan can use woke talking points to win sympathy even in the west. All bomb blasts that will happen will be justified as a natural consequence of Hindutva majoritarianism. No need for defence expenditure any more.

    Immy bhai is also focusing on the economy now. Airlift, a Lahore based logistics startup just raised $85 million to expand into Asia and Africa.

    As tech gets democratised, Indian entrepreneurs will realise that the only reason they had been raising so much money was because they were rent seeking on access to a large market. But having shown no gumption to expand beyond it, they will soon be overtaken by more hungry players from Pakistan, Bangladesh and elsewhere. These places will also receive Chinese venture capital as it searches for alternatives to India.

    Pakistan also has a young population so a ready and willing work force needed for industrialization. Pakistanis by and large also seem to be more hard working people. Plus they have an international network in the Islamic world, which is receiving significant investments of its own. Not to forget the fact that Pak has dual citizenship. So lots of west based Paks will also invest once they start to see potential.

    All in all, this is a far contrast from India. Our reality has been shown to the world during covid. The economy has been in the doldrums for years. China is on our throats. We have no foreign policy to speak of. Our human capital is going backwards and set even further back by the pandemic.
    Modi has destroyed all reputation that we had built. India and Hinduism are so toxic, no western leader will even touch us with a barge pole.

    This is a fit punishment for a society that has its essence rooted in discrimination and untouchability. Pakistan and Bangladesh did the right thing by separating from us. We will now see them reap the rewards of it while we wallow in gutter as we have for 3000 years.

    1. 10,000 years man, 10,000 years. Don’t you know our Vedas are 10,000 (or 100,000 my Chaha on whatsapp says) years old manuals on inserting dead horse’s dicks into a queen’s v for victory.

      ###

      Airlift is weird business tbh, they were doing cabs then they started their version of postmates, It will become a unicorn one day as it is andhon mein kaana raja.

    2. “This is a fit punishment for a society that has its essence rooted in discrimination and untouchability.”

      Would conversion to Islam, Christianity or post-modern wokeness save us? Or is it the case that having been casteists for 10000 odd years, caste is pretty much ingrained in the Indian DNA and a software change isn’t going to cut it? A ‘Cultural Revolution’ a la China is not going to do it for us.

      Perhaps we should unilaterally give away Kashmir to Pakistan and Ladakh, Arunachal Pradesh to China and sit tight, hoping no one will take notice of us as we muddle about in our misery.

      Maybe Punjab and Dravida-nadu should also separate from the eternal mess which is North India.

      The other way out is for the Bahujans of India to clearly realize the one group whose fault it is that India is so downtrodden – the Brahmins. Do the Brahmins do any real work – No. They only ever take up professions where they have to sit and give their worthless opinions on everything under the Sun. Hasn’t Tamil Nadu which for 70 years has been trying to get rid of Brahmins benefitted hugely by this endeavor? Is is not one of the most industrialized states with high human development indices?

      Would caste remain if Brahmins weren’t around? It wouldn’t. Jatt women would happily marry Dalit men when there wouldn’t be anyone to negatively judge their actions from the top of the caste hierarchy downwards.

      1. Hasn’t Tamil Nadu which for 70 years has been trying to get rid of Brahmins benefitted hugely by this endeavor? Is is not one of the most industrialized states with high human development indices?

        TVS, Amalgamations group, Zoho, and the list goes on.
        Not everything is as straight forward as you think.

    3. Lol. Imagine typing this shit literally the month after India’s exports hit a record high and the tech world is overflowing with jobs.

      The only talking point that I see the left use now is fuel prices.

      Haven’t been following BP closely for a while, what great tragedy has befallen Prats?

      1. @ IsThisReal
        He had said that he’d been kidding the last time he had written something like this so I assume he’s doing the same thing now. The bullshit level was way higher that time though

      2. @IsThisReal, there are other talking points that the left uses apart from fuel prices and those are privatization or selling off even profitable PSUs. Unemployment or even underemployement is a severe problem in india. The tech world which is ‘overflowing with jobs’ employs a very small fraction of the workforce. If anything, post-covid, things have been hard and there have many layoffs

      3. Indian companies are overflowing with stimulus money right now. Wait till that wave goes away and the economy is found naked.

        1. @ Prats
          Could you list out the reasons you are so pessimistic about India. I’m asking because you didn’t seem so a few months ago so want to know what all must have changed in the economy, is it mainly because of the second wave?

  9. lol u folks are getting too pessimistic. The reason india got ahead of Pakistan is not because it had some galaxy brains but because india does dumb things and pakistan does dumber.

    And last time pakistan was doing great was in late 80s when 1st Afghan war was drawing to a close…..

  10. I hope all of S Asia becomes rich. I just want radical Islam to not expand and CCP to not colonize. That’s all. If Pakistan is well positioned, that is wonderful. I just hope they don’t use their position for new terror projects. If Taliban governs well and moderately (I doubt it it but let’s see), then fantastic.
    All S Asia is poor with young population. Potential for growth is there. So much of it is untapped.

    Next time, India and Pak should take gold and silver in Javelin. I want them to do well too. I do feel a sense of pan S Asian brotherhood with Bangla, Pak, Sri Lanka, and Nepal, even if some racialists continue to hate me. That’s on them.

  11. thewarlock,

    “If Taliban governs well and moderately (I doubt it it but let’s see), then fantastic.”

    I completely share your hesitation. It’s hard to shake off the memories of late 90’s Taliban control. They were brutal.

    At the same time though, I’ve been bingeing a lot of videos on YouTube of Afghan reporters walking around Kabul, and interviewing both Talibs and local Kabulis.

    ^ And honestly, everything seems rather calm, quiet, and “normal”.

    Furthermore, a lot of these reporters are Tajiks with very poor proficiency in Pashto (while all the Talibs are Pashtuns, and the greater majority have very poor proficiency in Farsi/Dari), many of them are clean shaven, and quite a few are walking around in jeans and t-shirts.

    ^^ Despite the shaven faces, the western clothing, and the broken Pashto, the Talibs are rather friendly and accomadating towards them, and the reporters show not the slightest hint of fear.

    (Heck, forget the reporters; in every video, there are random young Kabuli guys walking around clean-shaven and t-shirted, right in front of armed Talibs… and the Talibs don’t seem to care, and the young guys don’t seem even remotely worried)

    In fact, some of the discussions between Talibs and reporters are shockingly sincere and open; the reporters do not pull any punches, and the Talibs do not display any impatience with any of the more “hard-hitting” questions.

    Furthermore, the fact that the American media continues to focus on the airport shows just how uneventful everything else is in Kabul; it really looks like the Taliban are keeping everything together.

    All I can say is that so far, this Taliban is a 100 miles away from its original tenure in the 90’s; and it is thousands upon thousands of miles away from anything like ISIS. (I mean, one of the first things they did was execute the leader of Khurasani ISIS)

    Also, I’ve already stated how I think that people here are exaggerating the importance of Pakistan in all of this. My skepticism was originally instinctual.

    ^ But now, it’s even intellectual (lol).

    In one interview between a Talib and a reporter, the reporter inquiries about the Talib’s possible response to people calling them Pakistani lackeys.

    ^^ The man straight up says that “Punjabis are people without dignity, without decency, and without honor. We would never tolerate them sowing discord upon our soil.”

    And he doesn’t look like the type to bullshit. He’s being pretty serious, and pretty sincere.

    Of course, he’s just one dude.

    But then, there’s another video of another guy interviewing the Taliban; he’s actually Pashtun. He asks a Talib a similar question (basically “Kabulis are worried that you’re all tied to Pakistan, and your governance means Pakistani governance”). This Talib basically says “it would be deeply dishonorable for Punjabis to tell Afghans how to handle our affairs. They can’t even handle their own affairs; look at Kashmir. They already have enough that they should worry about”.

    So that’s at least two dudes.

    Again, like I said days ago, I think that the Indian concerns about Pakistan in Afghanistan constitute a subset of the broader Indian concern about Pakistan in general. It’s not completely “real”.

    ^ So again, I will be on record as saying that the Taliban victory in Afghanistan is not neccesarily a victory for Pakistan; nor is the Taliban somehow an extension of Pakistan into Afghanistan. At the end of the day, this is an Afghan movement, with Afghan-specific concerns and interests.

    And again, I really hope that they continue to be as moderate and gentle as they are being right now.

    1. It doesn’t matter what lower rank TB members think of Punjabis.. the fact is that their victory is enabled by the same ‘Punjabis’ who provide them with intelligence support and fleeing shelter . These TB comments against Punjabis are pretty mild, people from pretty much every ethnic group in Pakistan that is not Punjabi make derogatory and offensive comments against Punjabis. My own uncle said once that ‘all Punjabis are like snakes and don’t ever make friends with them’. Ironically his wife (my aunt) is Punjabi. You will find similar comments against Punjabis made by Sindhis, Urduspeakers, and Baluch (Pakistani Pasthuns one the other hand relatively speaking are much closer to Punjabis and much less hostile to them when compared to other ethnic groups). At the end of the day, they all either vote for Punjabi parties or parties that seek support from Punjab, or they seek the protection of Pakistani (Punjabi) army, which in recent days have inducted a proportional amount of Pasthuns and Sindhis. So all in all, TB takeover of Afghanistan is just good news for Pakistan as at the very least, they are not that receptive to hosting India.

      Right now, TB has bigger concerns because what I am hearing is that a lot of the fighters don’t like this general amnesty for all Afghans that the top leadership has announced.. More radical elements in TB want retribution.. so there is a lot of discontent, that will show up when the victorious euphoria dies down.

  12. I believe we won’t really know how much or if taliban has changed until some months down the road, once all these settle down. There are still western citizens in Kabul, and Afghanistan”s assets are still on freeze. And taliban are still to be recognized. Lot of factors are up in air.

    1. “A safe passage through Afghanistan for all the countries connecting it to Gwadar and a safe passage through the Central Asia countries and Iran all the way to Turkey, connecting Western Europe to these countries. $92 trillion dollars of the world GDP and 56% of it being locked within these countries and first time in modern history a combined trading block. And none of it could be done without Pakistan and its deepwater port’

      🤣

  13. What is the possibility of Pak finally getting into the fatf black list, now that it has lost at least some of it’s leverage over US and there is a lot of anger against it due to the Afghanistan debacle

    1. None whatsoever. Infact Pakistan just got a $2.75 billion payout from the IMF today

      https://www.aaj.tv/news/30265318/

      It comes with a thank you note from IMF Managing Director Kristalina Georgieva, who has sent a note of thanks to Prime Minister Imran Khan, expressing gratitude over the “safe and swift evacuation” of its staff from Afghanistan

      ” | wish to offer my deep and sincere gratitude on behalf of the International Monetary Fund and its staff for Pakistan’s assistance, in the safe and swift evacuation of Fund personnel and their families from Afghanistan,” reads the letter dated 23 August 2020, as shared by the PM Office on Tuesday.

      The IMF head especially appreciated the “instrumental roles” played by Pakistan’s ministers of Foreign Affairs, Finance, and Defence, as well as the Governor State Bank of Pakistan.

      “Pakistan’s efforts at the highest levels, amid immensely difficult and complex circumstances, to help the Fund by securing a corridor to the airport and arranging the convoy that included our staff, were absolutely critical to this successful evacuation,” she said.

      “Thank you very much, from the bottom of my heart,” she said.

      https://www.app.com.pk/top-news/imf-chief-thanks-pakistan-on-staffs-safe-swift-evacuation-from-kabul/

      1. All this “negative events” really do is to act as revanchism for Hinduism back home. Creates asabiyah for more-Hindu people. Pushes Less-Hindu people to choose sides.

        What’s not to get happy about…

  14. @Prats

    Will the Internet really democratise in the future. I have read in a couple of places that it could fragment

  15. Will the Internet really democratise in the future. I have read in a couple of places that it could fragment

    I don’t know about democratization. A lot of people bullish on blockchain seem very utopian that it will fix everything. I am not so sure.

    There are a few trends I see wrt the internet:

    1. Internet is fragmenting already with different regulations in China, Europe, India than the US. The diversification will travel down the stack. I don’t think we’ll ever reach a place where these operate on completely different protocols that don’t speak to each other but we’ll start to see variations. That’s only natural.

    2. Professionalization of content – most of the content creators were amateurs like people here on BP who do it for the joy of it. But now everything is being monetized, which means everything will also eventually be regulated, which means less subversion probably.

    3. We are also for the first time seeing things like Cloudflare banning websites for holding certain political views.

    4. People are spending more and more time and money on a certain set of apps and less on the open web.

    3 and 4 basically mean that the ‘openness’ of the internet is going away anyway even without non-US countries doing anything.

    I do think there’ll come a time when the internet in different parts of the world will look very different.

    —–

    I’ll also take this chance to address @IsThisReal ‘s point about Indian tech companies receiving a rush of capital infusion of late.

    This is solely because of Tiger Global going on a spending spree in a climate of cheap money.

    I have a more sober view on the tech sector in general. Things like logistics, B2B e-comm etc are going to become commodities very soon. They will reach every single market. Every smart investor realises that. That’s why you see even Pakistani startups raise money.

    This is why the returns on tech by traditional hedge funds have started to become competitive with that by VCs. The tech sector is much more predictable now.

    The point being, that capital was going to come into India in any case as India is a large-ish market and someone would have got funded. This doesn’t really indicate any kind of cutting edge innovation by Indian entrepreneurs nor does it mean it will provide India with any sort of advantage over other countries in the long term.

    India still lags behind in sectors where the new venture money is headed – biotech, spacetech, EVs, batteries etc despite the slew of announcements that have been made recently in the latter two.

    So it’d be prudent to not get over-excited by the unicorn boom. Those who will make money from this – good for them. Rest should keep their heads down and continue working.

  16. Could you list out the reasons you are so pessimistic about India. I’m asking because you didn’t seem so a few months ago so want to know what all must have changed in the economy, is it mainly because of the second wave?

    I wrote part of it in jest as writing practice to mimic the typical desi neoliberal like Mihir Sharma or someone.

    I am not pessimistic on India but I do sometimes think we tend to underestimate Pakistan, which annoys me. So I try to balance it out. The growing differential between Pakistan and India is not a given. And India’s relative growth is not because we are doing something spectacularly great.

    We have just been fucking up less than them and we have some bright spots where ambitious people can still do productive work. The size of the market ensures that we receive capital. That’s about it.

    From this vantage point, I think India has been disappointing and we have the potential to do much more.

    1. Not sure why u think we are fucking up less than them. The differential has decreased only in the last year, which has to do with covid lockdown which India implemented and Pakistan didnt, and frankly no one knew how things will turn out.

      I mean India registered higher growth rate even after demonitization. That too on a larger base. I would say starting this year u will see India’s growth rates being higher than Pakistan again.

    2. Pakistan has great potential to succeed – it’s ideologically more coherent than India, less linguistically and religiously diverse hence easier to govern in theory (FATA aside), has less crushing poverty, is more compact and lastly due to its more martial leanings is more likely to be swayed by a strongman figure if such a leader were to set his mind to develop the country into an economic powerhouse rather than a terror factory.

      Maybe chaiman Xi could make still something of them, after all.

      1. He will. Pakistan embracing China is smart. They can’t run their own show well. This has been demonstrated over and over again. Xi will run it better, no doubt. And they will make Pakistan very strong. It is in their interest to do so.

        It is in their interest to see India maybe doing marginally better. But a moderately weak India pretty much sums up what they want.

        India fucked itself by not getting economically stronger. It starts and ends with the economy. China is winning because of its economy. Very little else matters. USSR fell because of economy. Economy is what matters most.

      2. All these things have been true for Pakistan from the start but it’s where it’s now. Pakistan homogeneity is enough to make it hybrid dictatorship but not a full fledged one like China. Plus it will always have bout of strongman which will push the country back ( mushraff, zia) as there will be strongmen who push it forward (ayub). Add to that enough democratic spoilers like PPP etc which will make the country more democratic at the cost of growth.

        So all in all its growth has had spurts and decline. That’s the cycle it has been following since 90s.

  17. the “memorial” where Harris placed her flowers, positioned at the site of the crash, was intended as a tribute to the Vietnamese defenders who captured the pilot – not the American who’d crash-landed in their lake after already bombing their country 22 times, likely killing multiple innocent civilians along the way. A plaque at the crash site indicates as much:

    https://twitter.com/cspan/status/1430488580602925059?

  18. Pakistan “overtaking” India is even more ridiculous than India overtaking China.

    Neither will happen.

    Pakistan is going to keep on growing at it’s own pace. India will just keep on growing faster.

    Pakistan will require 15-20 years to be at the level where India is NOW. By then India will have gone on further.

    Pakistan’s per capita income and HDI is where India’s was in the late 2000s and mind you India’s growth rate at both is much much faster.

    Pakistan also has a population growth rate of 2% (something that India had in 1990) compared to India’s 1% so they will have to grow their GDP faster than India by a percentage point to keep up at the same rate and more than that to close the gap.

    In the last 30 years Pakistan has had higher GDP gowth rate than India’s only twice – 2000 where they had 4.3% vs 3.8% and 2020 due to Covid. Their economic fundamentals like investment and savings rates are way below India’s.

    And things like economic complexity, foreign exchange reserves etc they are worse by a factor greater than 20x.

  19. 12 American soldiers dead in Kabul blast. ISIS claims responsibility.

    Who is supporting the ISIS in Afghanistan? Aren’t their Qatari backers on good terms with Taliban?

    May this shit-show not make its way into India.

    1. ….May this shit-show not make its way into India.

      You need to start realising that the Taliban is Deobandi mainstream. Saharanpur in Uttar Pradesh is the fount of this pan-South Asian stream that slakes the thirst of these ideologies. Everything is here – the mentality, the austereness, the focus. Only things missing are PETN and ball bearings. This is the unsaid part of the hot takes and expert commentary that is happening right now.

  20. https://thecritic.co.uk/liberalisms-graveyard/

    The Russians stabilised Chechnya, not by teaching Tolstoy but by killing Chechens and installing pro-Kremlin warlords. The Sri Lankans committed war crimes on a genocidal scale but managed to end the LTTE (Tamil Tigers) threat for good. One can debate the morality of these actions, or the fact that Afghanistan is at all strategically that important to us, the way Chechnya is to Russia, or Jaffna is to Sri Lanka. But the end result is in favour of amoral realpolitik. Speaking of Hannibal, Niccolò Machiavelli wrote in The Prince that there were no dissensions within the multi-ethnic subjects manning his army. “This arose from nothing else than his inhuman cruelty, which, with his boundless valour, made him revered and terrible in the sight of his soldiers, but without that cruelty, his other virtues were not sufficient to produce this effect”. Observing the collapse of the Afghan army facing the Taliban, it was Machiavelli 1, Pentagon 0.

    1. The Sri Lankans committed war crimes on a genocidal scale

      West and India seem to see genocide under Sri Lankan beds.

      However
      The US Afgan and Iraq war are not considered genocidal.
      Same for the massacre of Sikhs in 1984

      At least 801,000 people have been killed by direct war violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, and Pakistan. The number of people who have been wounded or have fallen ill as a result of the conflicts is far higher, as is the number of civilians who have died indirectly as a result of the destruction of hospitals and infrastructure and environmental contamination, among other war-related problems.
      https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human

      whilst independent sources estimate the number of deaths at about 8,000–17,000.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots

  21. “Faced with currency shortages, the government banned a wide range of imports, including vehicles as well as industrial raw materials and machinery since March last year.

    With supermarkets rationing staples such as sugar and milk powder, importers say they cannot get dollars at official exchange rates and have to pay black market prices.

    Energy minister Udaya Gammanpila appealed to motorists this week to use fuel sparingly so that the country can use its foreign exchange to buy essential medicines and vaccines.

    Another top official warned that fuel rationing may be introduced by the end of the year unless consumption was reduced.”

    https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210819-sri-lanka-raises-rates-as-rupee-falls-to-record-low

    Sri Lankans in trouble. Again!

    1. Sri Lankans in trouble. Again!

      Yes because of another unwanted gift from India, the Indian/Delta covid variant. Much like those other unwanted gifts like a) Training of LTTE terrorist b) Air Drop to LTTE terrorists c)Indian People Killing Force (IPKF) d) 13th Amendment/Provincial Councils

      Tourism (20% of FX) has collapsed since April 2019, the Easter Bombing. The then govt relatively West Liberal dismantled the intelligence and security set up by the Rajapakse govt. a) To appease Muslim and Tamil voters b) Under pressure from Western govts and India. Result Islamic extremist targeting High End Tourist hotels and Christians.

      Anyway the Govt has chosen Health over economy and the country has been in lockdown or restricted travel since March 2020. Seem like the Sinopharm is making a dent in the mortlity rate. We have got a couple of million of that vaccine.

      The country is under austerity, imports severely curtailed. However, even though the west kept talking down markets, saying SL would default on bond payments. Those bond payments of a USD billion were made a few months back. Another billion to be made in January,

      If the virus spread does not stop soon, the govt will need to make hard descisions, health of citizens or the Economy.

      1. Indian variant of the Chinese Wuhan virus.

        https://www.deccanherald.com/business/economy-business/rbi-currency-swaps-to-boost-sri-lankas-reserves-says-governor-of-central-bank-1002558.html

        Even after getting $400 Million from India in this context what was this about? ‘Much like those other unwanted gifts like…’ having seen your random sexual-innuendo filled comebacks to mere observations, I will steer clear. At least try to stay calm and objective. Your government does irresponsible borrowing.

        “Under pressure from Western govts and India.”
        Proofs? Why would India ever risk Islamic terrorism around it? It is like weird claims of India supporting Pakistani Taliban. I understand some over-smart Indian screwing with LTTE or Balochs but Islamists in this day and age?

        1. Bhimrao

          Even after getting $400 Million from India in this context what was this about?
          Hmm, see that you dont know what is a SWAP. Hint: It is a not a loan.

          Your government does irresponsible borrowing.
          I assume that statement is based on your deccanherald link and a laundry list of SWAP agreements with, Bangaladesh , China. Once again a SWAP is not a loan.

          On the same token I would suggest India go easy on spending warships or whatever. To “brow beat SL ” as you said elsewhere. Maybe spend some on say increasing HDI, seg Infant mortality. These are extremely discriminating, even genocide against marginalised people like Dalits.

          Much like those other unwanted gifts like…’ having seen your random sexual-innuendo filled comebacks to mere observations
          Most Sri Lankans and I are not uptight regards sex, eg we marry or have sex with cousins. Plenty of pre marital sex (thats why late marriages), homosexuality is a non issue.

          Anyway I dont use four letter words on any topic, and rarely even in conversation. Maybe thats why you think its innuendo. Why dont you quote what I said.

          1. “I assume that statement is based on your deccan herald link”
            No on this:
            https://www.reuters.com/world/china/debt-hobbled-sri-lanka-risks-running-out-options-2021-08-03/
            ‘On the same token I would suggest India go easy on spending warships or whatever. To “brow beat SL ” as you said elsewhere. Maybe spend some on say increasing HDI, seg Infant mortality.’
            Yeah India sucks, it would suck even more if it becomes a Chinese client or colony.
            Browbeat != beat.
            We have $600+ billion in forex reserves. Sri Lanka has < $3 billion. Sri Lanka spends 1.91% of GDP on defence, India spends 2.4%, why is that such a big deal? What are you complaining about? Not letting China park nuclear submarines in your ports? Go ahead do that too, then face the economic consequences, let Indians also see where is this big 'region' whose trade conduit is Colombo.
            'These are extremely discriminating, even genocide against marginalised people like Dalits.'
            Whaaat?
            'Much like those other unwanted gifts like…’ having seen your random sexual-innuendo filled comebacks to mere observations
            Most Sri Lankans and I are not uptight regards sex, eg we marry or have sex with cousins. Plenty of pre marital sex (thats why late marriages), homosexuality is a non issue.
            Anyway I dont use four letter words on any topic, and rarely even in conversation. Maybe thats why you think its innuendo. Why dont you quote what I said.'
            Replying to one of my normal comments in the past you went on a tirade boasting about your supposedly big black dick and black monkey vigor and what not. Chill bhai, why so angry and aggressive all the time? Your government borrows and spends money irresponsibly on ego projects.

          2. Bhimrao,

            No on this: a reuters link

            You are a dodgy character noh.

            a) Did not address the deccanherald link re SWAPS.
            You thought SWAPS were loans
            b) The reuters link was not in your original post.

            Bhimrao
            A solid Bengali like Razib could get his dick sucked non stop in Kolkata intelligentsia circles.
            Very good dating/hook-up environment

            Bhimaro, you have that typical Muslim, Pakistani type mentality. What do you call it Panchayat. Males can run around and finger whoever they want. Women in your community just cant do whatever. Maybe your community women and cousins can move to Kolkata. (Thats much innuendo for you Bhimrao)

            Replying to one of my normal comments in the past you went on a tirade boasting about your supposedly big black dick and black monkey vigor and what not.

            Now Bhimrap you are proving, you are just not a dodgy character, but a liar too.
            a) I would never claim I have big appendage. I am a short guy 5’4″. I think my appendage is medium or below avg.
            b) I dont use the word black monkey, jungle bunny yes.

            So just to reiterate, and repeat unless you can provide a link to this “black dick ” you say I made, you Bhimrao are a LIAR and DODGY Character.

          3. I wrote a long reply that is not showing up. Gist of the matter was, I have lived in Kolkata because I had some roots and still have family (obviously including my female relatives) there.

            https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/10/17/open-thread-10-17-2020/

            This was one of the comments I could find easily, I remember you make similar ones elsewhere too when you throw tantrums.

            “In SL in general it is black Sudra dicks. Big or small compared to others, who knows. However, when necessary we know how to use it properly.”

            Maybe it was jungle bunny and not black monkey, but you do take these weird and unnecessarily aggressive stances and throw tantrums defending clear-as-day mistakes of Sri Lankans.

          4. sbarrkum:You first came up with a put down question.

            Bhimrao:Did Sri Lankan (Indians) ever manage to send an army out? or were they lame like the(non Maratha/Sikh) rest of Indians?

            Bhimrao:Stupid question: how big were the armies(both Chola/PB) that invaded SE Asia? How big were the fleets? How big the ships?

            sbarrkum:Aha a dick size contest.
            In SL in general it is black Sudra dicks. Big or small compared to others, who knows. However, when necessary we know how to use it properly.

            Bhimrao claims sbarrkum said.
            Replying to one of my normal comments in the past you went on a tirade boasting about your supposedly big black dick and black monkey vigor and what not.

            Hmm to be generous huge misrepresentation. No claims of big dick, on the contrary I said “Big or small compared to others, who knows”
            I Did not use the word monkey maybe in your mind you equate shudra with monkey. I dont mind, I am proud to be a Black Shudra or even be called a black monkey,it is a badge of honor, a Hanuman or Ravanan if you may.

            Just to remind this back and forth started with a another “dick measure”, i.e. FX reserves of SL vs India and the ability to “brow beat SL”.

            but you do take these weird and unnecessarily aggressive stances and throw tantrums defending clear-as-day mistakes of Sri Lankans.

            On the contrary Bhimrao you seem to have a huge inferiority complex, with megalomaniac ideas of huge armies and “brow beating SL” your smaller neighbor.

            Just to remind you of a huge mistake Indians of your type made. They got beaten by the Flip Flop brigade that included a huge contingent of women. i.e. The LTTE terrorist. Then they went on to give you a sucker punch by a woman, which India will remember for decades and generations.

          5. Again why so annoyingly vitriolic all the time? Go get some antacid.

            “I Did not use the word monkey maybe in your mind you equate shudra with monkey. I dont mind, I am proud to be a Black Shudra or even be called a black monkey,it is a badge of honor, a Hanuman or Ravanan if you may.”

            You make no sense. Will not respond anymore. 🧘🏽‍♂️ peace, you win.

            ‘Just to remind you of a huge mistake Indians of your type made. They got beaten by the Flip Flop brigade that included a huge contingent of women. i.e. The LTTE terrorist. Then they went on to give you a sucker punch by a woman, which India will remember for decades and generations.’

            I am totally fine with being beaten by women.

      2. Karma is a bitch.

        In effect, your comment read “it’s our country. We kill and oppress whoever we want to. Who are you to interfere?”

        Yes. Point. India is nobody. If it was made clear, india would have tackled differently. India was fumbling in the dark.

        I wonder if P. Chidambaram, who was minister of state for internal security, and V.R. Jayawardene, the Sri Lankan president who signed the 1987 Indo-Lankan accord, both being chettis (one nattukottai, and the other, Colombo chetti. And, the latter being descendants of the former) had any bearing on how india handled the Sri Lanka/LTTE issue.

        1. In effect, your comment read “it’s our country. We kill and oppress whoever we want to. Who are you to interfere?”

          It was war, against a terrorist organization trained and funded by India.

          So why is India killing and genocide of Kashmiri Muslims for 70 years. Just give independence or hand Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan.

          Militancy in Jammu and Kashmir has claimed a total of 41,000 lives in the past 27 years which means an average of 4 deaths per day in the state or 1519 casualties every year, according to the latest available government data.
          https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/the-anatomy-of-kashmir-militancy-in-numbers/story-UncrzPTGhN22Uf1HHe64JJ.html

          both being chettis (one nattukottai, and the other, Colombo chetti. And, the latter being descendants of the former) had any bearing on how india handled the Sri Lanka/LTTE issue .

          JRJ’s ancestor Tomby Mudali was a traitor. He was guide and showed the English the way to the Kandyan Kingdom. If you are interested can give a link to John D’Oylys diary where Tombi Mudali is mentioned often(free download).

          JR Jayawardena does not identify with the Colombo Chetty. He is considered Sinhalese of “doubtful ancestry”

          JRJ was damn racist who instigated the 1977 and 1983 anti Tamil riots and the burning of the Jaffna library. He made a bad situation much worse

          1. Typing ‘Colombo Chetti Jeyawardene’ in google gives plenty of results. This https://www.lankaweb.com/news/items/2016/03/29/j-r-jayawardena-was-a-colombo-chetty/ one, for ex.

            I was under the impression that many Sinhalas were actually Sinhalized tamils. Ties between TamilNadu and Tambapanni go back a long way, no? Doesn’t the sinhala aristocrat group, radala, have ancestry from tamilnadu? Was not the Kandyan Kingdom filled with Balija Naidus and Tamils from Tamilnadu? I read somewhere that only 1 out of 11 signatures of the 1815 Kandyan convention was in pure sinhala, and others were in tamil, grantha, or mixed.

            So, Jeyawardene, and Solomon Bandaranaike…were they really anti-tamil? Or did they just really go that extra mile to convince the Sinhala that blood is not thicker than water?

  22. In the various discussions around the victory of the Taliban from different sources, one common thread can be found – Pakistan, particularly it’s ability to milk the US while working behind the scenes to sabotage it.

    This is a victory of Pakistani diplomacy more than anything else. While it’s my opinion that this will be a short lived victory and long term headache for them, it’s still a staggering achievement in the short term.

    This is keeping with my anecdotal experiences with overseas Paks of a certain class (not including Mirpuris here, obviously) who are gracious, charming, well dressed and behaved and above all well spoken with support to all the right SJW causes. This is in stark contrast to Indians who are generally more of solidly middle class background and come across as brusque and businesslike. Surely this extends to the diplomatic corps as well, and the fact that Anglos are easily swayed by etiquette and presentation means the Paks will run hoops around the Indians every time, especially if the generals hand pick the candidates for the job.

    It seems the Paks have understood their former colonial masters far better than the Indians. Or is the hallmark of the Urdu culture of ‘tehzeeb’ that Pak has ironically adopted much better than the land of is origin?

    1. +1

      Pakistanis tend to be smooth(er) talkers.

      In the American universities, there is a clear class distinction among mid 20s- mid 30s crowd of Indians and Pakistanis. Indians are >20X (maybe even 50X) in numbers but from a lower socio-economic class than Pakistanis.

      1. Isn’t this actually a positive for India.

        India has become so much more richer and prosperous that even the middle classes can go for higher education to the US compared to only the upper classes for Pakistan. I’m sure the number of upper class Indians must also be 4x-5x more than the Pakistanis but the middle class ones engulf them.

        Another similar example would be the case of Chinese tourists in Europe and USA. They tend to have pretty bad reputations which the Indian ones don’t have. But that is again because China has become so rich that even the middle classes can afford to take these vacations while in India only the richer classes can.

          1. SEA falls within the “radius” of affordability.

            As in India is now rich enough that the middle classes can afford to go to SEA (or UAE etc) for vacation but not rich enough they can go to Europe or further than that, USA/Latin America.

            China has become so rich that this “radius” covers the entire globe and the middle class hailing from smaller towns can visit anywhere.

            As India becomes richer this “radius” will cover the entire globe and they will take the place of Chinese tourists (as in being badly behaved etc). Chinese will then have become rich enough that their behaviors fit first world norms.

            There must have been a similar progression with the Koreans etc but simply because of lesser numbers was not visible.

    1. Bhai, Shakespeare Sarani, Esplanade, Camac, Russel and especially Park Street are the very heart of Kolkata. Like the Connaught place in Delhi. Not that big of a deal if the streets look the way they do.

      There are the generic Gurgaon-Noida like modern glass buildings in Garia, New Town, and Salt Lake.

      You should see the dilapidated bits like Barabazar or most of Howrah, ugly thin un-plastered/un-painted 5-7 storey buildings on 500 sq-ft plots, one minor earthquake and 50% of the buildings would collapse.

      ###

      City is beyond overcrowded, smell of sweat and fish everywhere, big potholes, shitty buses, noise…

      I loved this city. Feels like a proper alive city to me. Opposite of American suburbs. Full of life. Bengalis on streets of Kolkata are irritating, conceited, argumentative, and loud but once you set realistic expectations and get into the vibe the city is very enjoyable.

      (On non-Mumbai/non-Bangalore Indian standards) Very good dating/hook-up environment, very nice pubs, clubs and bars on Park Street. Not a place I would like to live long term but it has its very unique charm.

      1. I on the other hand would like to retire in a city like that. It seems its prices are stuck in the 90s. It also has silent enclaves where u dont have to mingle with people.

        1. In late 2000s I used to pay INR 6 for a 15 km bus ride on one of those JNNURM low floor Marco polo buses from Howrah to South City. A comparable bus ride in Kanpur would have been at-least 7X that.

          The ancient wood-plank floor buses might have charged~ Rs 3 for the same ride. The metro was much cheaper than the already cheap Delhi Metro. The food was cheap although the less said about the quality of Kolkata cheap street food the better. Bengalis in general eat shitty street food on a daily basis, they can bitch all they want but Punjabi, Kannada, Gujrati, Tamil, Andhra, UP all of them spend more money on food and get much better quality street food. Bengali sweets in Kolkata are overrated, Monginis, etc all their supposedly unique stuff is over rated. My semi-Americanized stomach can’t take their greasy chops and microscopic tea cups, a weird cost-obsession even with food runs through the place. The city feels a full tier below Delhi/Mumbai/Bangalore.

          It is not that difficult to buy your place into the city’s who’s who either. A couple of NRI Bengalis I know host ok-ish parties in Kolkata’s ITC, JW Marriott etc and manage to bring in the very top of Bengali politicians, film stars etc. One of them has made it into Bengali language magazines as models for clothing brands and have had their 4-5 page celebrity style interviews published.

          A solid Bengali like Razib could get his dick sucked non stop in Kolkata intelligentsia circles.

          1. Agreed. That’s y best place to retire. Since there is hardly much to do in the city before retiring.

            I doubt razib can stay for long. The city would be too commie for his taste.

  23. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-07-31-mn-5273-story.html

    Came across this LATimes article from July 1985. It is about the plight of Hindus in Punjab in wake of Sikh militancy.

    The article made me realize how different the 1980s were from now. No woke bullshit, no mention of caste (in an article about Hindus!), actually highly sympathetic to the Hindus. No gratuitous mention of Dalits, Muslims, women etc either.

    It’s easy to forget the wokemania of the present is not more than 10 years old, and the world was different in the 2000s (let alone the 80s)

    1. this was back when one would not be able to easily conflate the NY times with Al Jihada, The Onion, and Jacobin

    2. Man how much I miss the 2000s now, which to be honest wasn’t even close to 90s but still…

  24. For those that didn’t click on the article, this was the headline: “Sikhs Dominate Punjab : Hindus: A Forgotten Minority”

    Yeah, can you even imagine a headline even half as sympathetic to Hindus as this in any newspaper in the US now? Or even India for that matter – although it would have also not happened in India of the 80s as newspapers tried to ostensibly stay above the fray, no matter what their actual ideology was

  25. Can you even imagine a headline even half as sympathetic to Hindus as this in any newspaper in the US now?

    Be careful what you wish for. India was weak and Hindus were still ruled by the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty, which might have been ambivalent about the West but was still very *westernised* per se in their personal lives. This is the India that Western elites pine for. A poor, dependent India ruled by westernised/secular elites.

    That coverage came with a heavy price, in other words, and if the choice is between good coverage in the Western press and having autonomy and dignity, choose the latter every time. The two are indeed in conflict, whether you want it or not.

    As I’ve said many times: Western elites seek a compliant world. They hate China now because of rising Han nationalism. They deeply disdain the Hindutva project, and only (barely) tolerate it out of pragmatic reasons to contain China. India is foolish to embrace the US, as America has far greater tools to shape India’s internal elites than China ever did or ever will. And the US Deep State is extremely hostile to Hindu nationalism, as is evidenced through its media puppets (NYT, WaPo, CNN etc).

    1. This issue is that China wants to keep India down and actually wants parts of Indian territory. China wants a weak India as well. China and their best friend Pak would prefer a quarrelling and dismembered India.

      In the end, India has to fend for itself. Step one is to get richer. China will not help India. They will take land and that’s about it. Maybe fund communists who will keep it backward. Foolish communists that will not actually do the good economics of Chinese communists who are actually staye authoritarian oligarch relatively more free market supporters.

      China has nothing but loss to offer India, in the sense of a true geopolitical pivot. The US has a little bit to offer. The truth is that India has no option but to ally to some degree with the latter but with the understanding that it is really on it’s own.

  26. Thanks to Hoju for sharing the Kolkata drivethrough. Kolkata is one of the few cities that still has a chance to turn away from a disastrous car-centric urban model like most of Urban India already has. I think it was Prats who shared a very interesting study on Indian urbanism a few Open Threads ago, and Kolkata was by far the leader in terms of public transportation etc.

    Thanks also to sbarrum for sharing the article on Sri Lanka’s plight. Sri Lanka was long the shining star of South Asia and it saddens me to see their troubles. South Asia needs a clear economic winner like Japan was for East Asia many years ago, to set a positive example. Sri Lanka was that for a long time, let’s hope they can regain that status once more.

    1. India is still dirt poor. Some Western liberal wokesters you would think would have a conscious. They speak nothing of the plight of mistreated Hindus of Bangladesh or Pak. They side with Islamists over even moderately nationalist Hindus. This goes beyond some grand conspiracy by the West in general to keep India down.

      It really is more about the unholy alliance between radical islam and leftists, most prominently the CCP, ironically leftists in name only. Hindu nationalists tend to support capitalism more and stand up more aggressively to radical islam. That is where the opposition comes from. Of course, most Hindu Nats are still too socialist and some certainly too anti science for my taste. But leagues better than corrupt pseudo secular “leftists” and radical islamoapologist groups of India.

    2. I like how layered the architecture is. There’s colonial architecture, understated bauhaus / intl style buildings, commie buildings, and now skyscrapers with glass. Kind of like how Hanoi did a great job preserving and integrating its colonial architecture.

      Looks like a place that has a sense of place, unlike say a fishing village becoming a megacity over a couple of decades.

  27. Hi all.

    Please excuse me if this is a very sensitive topic. For those who have an introduction about the tamil civil war in Sri Lanka and LTTE…Just think about this.

    Both Rajiv Gandhi and Indira Gandhi supported LTTE and Eelam cause. LTTE was actually trained by RAW and I think they supplied some weapons too, not sure. IPKF was flown in in a show of solidarity to tamils. I don’t India has done that anywhere else. Fly in its army on another country’s soil, sending a strong message to that country. Basically, in 1987, the SL army was closing in on the LTTE, and had almost reached Jaffna. Operation Liberation. Then, India sent in its airplanes and dropped relief materials in Jaffna area. Operation Poomalai of India was a show of force, and was seen as a breach of territorial sovereignty.

    IPKF was actually sent to show support for the tamil cause. Why did the LTTE fight the IPKF?

    Two heads of state are said to have been assassinated by LTTE. Rajiv Gandhi and Ranasinge Premadasa. Heads of India and Sri Lanka respectively. Do you know what both of them have in common?

    Both supported LTTE. One, unknowingly, and one, knowingly. Rajiv Gandhi and his mum thought that, by supporting LTTE, they were helping tamils in their fight against the onslaught of the Sinhala. Ranasinghe Premadasa, on the other hand, was a local man. He knew the landscape very well. He was himself from a lower social background. He knowingly supported LTTE. Why did the LTTE kill both of them if both of them supported the LTTE?

    LTTE were said to demand for a separate state. Eelam. The Indo-Lanka Accord of 1987 promised devolution of powers. Isn’t this a first, and major step towards autonomy? What problem did they have?

    I see that some things don’t add up. Do you?

    1. It might hurt u, since u seem invested in this. India (or for that matter the Gandhis) were never concerned abt SL Tamils. Heck India wasnt concerned for its own Tamils till the 70s and DMK (the reigning Tamil Party) was dismissed and its leaders thrown into jail by Indira during the emergency.
      It was a naked power game in SL, in which naive Rajiv got sucked into , just like he got sucked into many things. Even today the Congress perfunctorily says stuff abt tamils because of its dependency on DMK. And BJP which has no need of tamil votes (and vice versa), doesnt say or do the bare minimum.
      I am actually surprised that Rajpakshes have not grasped this once in a lifetime oppurtunity and formed closer bonds with India/Modi and get the devoloution articles discarded. Or perhaps they feel India anyhow doesnt have the power and the articles are redundant anyway.

      1. I know India doesn’t care about tamils. Dravidian Movement was constructed by the local elites and defacto powers of tamil country – Nattukottai Chettiar, Saiva Vellalar, Balija Naidu, Thuluva Vellala Mudaliar. One hundred years of a most toxic (albeit totally non-violent) hate against Brahmins was also constructed by this very same group. They are the most sanskritized, ritualized hindus/saivas amongst tamils, and also the topmost tamil castes. Brahmin hate was their handiwork, out of jealousy or whatever. They were thinking themselves as equal to Brahmins. Then, they lost great privilege because their privilege belonged to the agricultural/feudal times, and it was dependent to a great extent on the British. Brahmins were almost the sole groups in Tamil country who took serious steps to counter british and try to fight for freedom. I say ‘try’ because they were bourgeois and their fight was weak.

        Congress was, to begin with, a cosmopolitan club for the rich and influential men in the land. Congress becoming a hub for freedom struggle activities in 20th century was a huge shock to those elites. This lament can be seen in the ‘Non-Brahmin Manifesto’ which was the beginning of the Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai (Dravidian) Movement. It said that Congress had become a bad org (bcos Brahmins flocked to the Congress and started demanding for freedom and all). Britain ruled India through the local elites and princes. Practically all the powers of tamil country supported the British. Their huge wealth and privilege came through the British. They incited Brahmin hate for a hundred years talking about government jobs. They never spoke about land, money, trade, and industry. That was where the money was, and those were all with them. Brhamins had none of those. I am filled with great sadness, folks. Because there is so much….just so much to speak but I know that it is well nigh impossible to pass that on to non-tamils. Because, after all, we are all selfish. We don’t care about other people’s affairs. And, a world of lies has been built around Dravidian Movement. In it, and outside it. On the inside, the Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai (Dravidian) movement was non-human, demoniac world of lies, hate and malice. At each and every step. There is no way I can convey this to the uninitiated so Im not going to try. It will just suffice to say that there was nothing like this in human history. The tamil is a deeply neurotic society. Brahmin hate was completely non-violent, but the hate is unique. Tamils in general, and Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai, a.k.a Nagarathar-Vellalar in particular have set the world record for non-violent hate. Nobody, no race can ever touch that record for another 2000 years. This was the lies on the inside.

        On the outside, to you people, they have been saying that Dravidian Movement was a conspiracy of the ‘church’ and missionaries to destroy hinduism and India. Aravindhan Neelakanda, the author of ‘Breaking India’ is a vellala. He knows very well that his very ilk, saiva vellalas, are the chief creators of a century of toxic Brahmin hate, yet he says and writes otherwise. There are plenty of dodos in India, and even amongst tam-brahmtards, who go by ‘Breaking India’. Sorry, folks. Dravidian Movement and a century of Brahmin hate in tamil country were neither anti-hindu nor anti-upper caste. They were built by the uppermost and most hinduest of tamils.

        But India and BJP neither knows, nor cares about tamil. I can see that. Democracy is self service. The vellalas and other tamils are actually operating to bring BJP/hindutva to tamil country, but from the other camp, their home ground, Dravidian camp, they are building a narrative like “See. the brahmanical hindutva is coming in to destroy the dravidian movement because we are against caste. They want to destroy this 100 yr old fortress of castelessness and introduce caste again. These Brahmins (ical force) created caste system and inequality in India for 2000 yrs. Dravidian movt was an oasis of castelessness and equality and women empowerment for a 100 yrs. Brahmanical forces cannot bear this. They are angry at us because we destroyed/weakened the casteism which they created. Now, it is rearing its ugly head again”…

      2. 2nd part (continued from “…reared ugly head again.”)
        somethng like that. The tamil is a unique peoples and unique society in the whole world. The intensity and reach of propaganda and hate is simply unbelievable. Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai (Dravidian) movement is calling inroads of BJP/hindutva as a “Brahmanical conspiracy”, but that TN BJP/RSS/Hindutva is calling dRavidian movement as being ‘anti-hindu’. In other words, they are saying that thing which will make Hindutva/BJP/RSS happy, and fall in line with its agenda. Now, they will say “See how the hindutva defeated the anti-hindu church forces in Tamil country”. Lol! Vellala + chettiar built Brahmin hate and Drav movt.

        Why I say all this…I know India doesn’t know and understand tamil people and society. But these demons have been frying us in hate for a hundred years. It is totally non-violent and passive hate, so, even many Brahmins don’t understand this. But just think about this. Imagine you are in a bus, and there is a pick pocket who inserts the tips of his index and middle fingers inside ur back pocket. You feel it, and catch him and say “Hey!! What the FFF, catch him! thief thief!!!”

        How would he/she react? The pickpocket will recoil in shock right? Recoil, and probably run away, or move away silently into the crowd.

        Imagine a scenario where pick pocket inserts his hand into your pocket, you feel it and shout “Hey!! What the FFF, catch him! Thief thief!!!”

        Now, what if …the pick pocket is not scared by your cry? what if he coolly doesnt even care to remove his hands from inside your pocket? What if he says “Oh F off”? When will that happen? What makes the difference between the two scenarios? Why and when do pick pockets recoil in shock and run away? And when do they, if at all, not run away? What is the difference?

        1. “But these demons have been frying us in hate for a hundred years.”
          Stop wallowing in self pity. Tambrams are considered very high status regardless of how much brahmin hate there is in TN. As for your theory that Hindtuva is making in roads in TN, that’s rubbish. Tamil identity is more important to Tamils than the identity of a “Hindu” because Tamils do not share a common history with N Indians beyond the British Empire. An emotional investment in the history of N-India(Mughals, Partition&Mughals) is the CORE of Hindutva project. Tamils have such an apathetic disregard for N-Indian History, how will Hindutva ever gain in roads in TN? The answer? It won’t. Dravidian movement has been a failure for a long time, it will be replaced by Tamil Nationalist parties(no not by idiots like Semen).

          You’re forgetting the most important aspect of anti-brahmin hate, Brahmins are constantly called N.Indians instead of Tamils. If actual son of soil Tambrams have a hard time proving their nativity to TN, how on earth will non native Modi-Shah establishment? TN is proof that Hindutva has strict geographical limits.

          They have inferiority complex about blackness
          So do many low castes in India, have you looked at some of these bihari/bengali labourers? They’re pretty AASI looking and yet they don’t seem to be filled with rage against bihari&bengali Brahmins&UCs.

          1. Tambrams being considered very high status does not mean there was no hate.

            You mean hindutva is not making inroads into TN? I wrote a comment about tamil nationalism of vellalas and non-vellalas. I don’t know what happened to it. Whether its stuck in moderation or whatever. I could glean that from your ending remarks. ‘not by the likes of seeman’. I got what you’re saying. I know the toy will be snatched from the baby soon. In fact, I doubt if the baby is doing monkey tricks willingly, to amuse the adults, and split votes.

            What is Aravindhan Neelakandan Pillai doing in Hindutva? Is he the advisor for the Sangh about what to do in TN? What about Annamalai’s entry? Im not worried about whether or not hindutva will make it big in TN. Im just worried that this window of hindutva will be used by tamils to ditch the ‘frame’ within which the 100+ yrs of socio-politics, and hate happened. I guess they too don’t care about hindutva. They just want to be on the side that cheers and laughs when Periyar and Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai (Dravidian) Movement are attacked. For a century, they were on that side. Now, they have jumped over to the other side, and, therefore, make it seem like they had nothing to do with it. That history is their history too. That’s why they are attacking Drav movt from the totally meaningless ‘anti-hindu’ POV. I wonder if sections of tamils are using hindutva/bjp to erase their histories and records.

      3. 3rd part.
        I believe the difference is in the crowd. The crowd in the bus. When will the pp recoil in shock? When he knows that the surrounding crowd will thrash him, and look at him negatively. When he knows he will be shamed by the surrounding crowd.

        When do pickpockets not recoil in shock and not even bother to remove their hands from other people’s pockets?

        When they know that the crowd won’t react all that much, or when they know that they can brainwash the crowd, like chettiar-mudaliar-pillai have been brainwashing the collective tamil psyche for a hundred years. When they know that there is no punisher, or that they can find their way through the crowd…when they know that they will not be shamed or thrashed by the crowd, then, they don’t have fear to pick pockets. The crowd is just an informal authority. Police/law are formal authorities.

        So, tamil crowd is like the crowd in the bus in the 2nd scenario. The pick pocket is the local elites. Chettiar + Mudaliar + Pillai. They know that they have tamil crowd by the balls. The tamil collective consciousness has been filled with the hate and socio-political worldview of the elites – nagarathar + vellalar. They control tamil psyche and opinions fully.

        So, I need witnesses from outside. They will later act as adjudicators. I know that nagarathar-vellalar have tamil crowd by the balls. The distortions are really unbelievable. I follow every strand, but its difficult to make others see. I can’t get justice from tamil crowd because this is a demoniac crowd. I believe brahmin hate of chettiar-mudaliar-pillai lived a hundred years because the tamil approved of it. And I believe that that hate and approval of that hate rested on self-consciousness of tamils about their blackness. They have inferiority complex about blackness. So, they are relieved by hate on non-black people as long as it doesn’t cross limits.

      4. 4th part

        I need non-tamil witnesses. Non-tamil Indians who have brahmin hate will be the best. Because, I want to show how Brahmin hate of tamil country is extreme even for Brahmin haters. This is like no other place in the whole world. And BJP/Hindutva’s entry into tamil country will only scramble the narratives, and destroy the history. Tamil socio-politics happened within a certain ‘frame’, or stage. They are bringing in a new ‘frame’ of hindu vs anti-hindu, hindutva, etc. The problem with this new frame is that it will have strict entry rules. It will not entertain too many debates about socio-politics and hate of the past century. It will only touch on things superficially because this is the stage of castes lower than the elites. Drav movt was created by elites, and borne and kept alive by these guys. The history of #drav is their history too. They will not go too deep into it.

        So, the new ‘frame’ of hindutva is actually brought in to destroy the history and records of Dravidian Movt. The latter fights it, but knows that it is good for them. After all, the most hinduest of tamils built Dravidian Movement and Brahmin hate. They are not inimical to conservative socio-politics. #drav movt, is, after all, a century old. Its getting weary. They claim to fight it, like the violin players in the sinking Titanic, but they know that its actually good for them. Because it distorts and destroys history of their 100 yrs of malice, hate and lies. It relieves them of their drama when they no longer have the momentum for it.

      5. I am actually surprised that Rajpakshes have not grasped this once in a lifetime oppurtunity and formed closer bonds with India/Modi and get the devoloution articles discarded. Or perhaps they feel India anyhow doesnt have the power and the articles are redundant anyway

        The Rajapakses are doing it (not implementing) the Sri Lankan way. No outright rejection, just the right polite noises without any wish or plan to implement.

        The scrapping of the devolution plans was a winning election promise for the Sinhalese. The other was security and re installing military intelligence that had been scrapped by previous govt prior to 2019 Easter Bombing.

        The way things are the opposition, relatively west liberal bent is NOT likely to win elections. They promise devolution and join up with the Tamil and Muslim parties. Thats the kiss of death to the Sinhalese vote.

        To the average Sinhala voter (80% rural) devolution equates to installing a Indian client province/state whatever. No differentiating between S India or N India, all Indians.

        1. “The Rajapakses are doing it (not implementing) the Sri Lankan way.”

          Its not really Sri Lankan way , its the subcontinetal way, i can assure. LOL

    2. @Shak

      If you want high quality conspiracy theories, read the Jain Commission report or the ravings of Seeman.

      1. Yes. But if I wanted to find out how many of those conspiracy theories are true and how many are false? Nobody can make you see that. You have to apply your brains and see it yourself, which is why I posted it here. I wanted all the good, smart people here to think on it.

        If both Rajiv Gandhi (+ his mom. LTTE was trained by RAW) and Ranasinghe Premadasa supported the LTTE at the expense of infuriating the Sinhalas, why did the LTTE murder them? It just doesn’t add up.

    1. In tamil it reads “long live tamil eelam”. No problem so far. The problem arises if Thirumurugan Gandhi says it, lol 😂😆

  28. Today is the birth anniversary of perhaps the only god who has me tethered to Hinduism somewhat

    “ It is really arduous to understand Krishna. It is easy to understand that a man should run away from the world if he wants to find peace, but it is really difficult to accept that one can find peace in the thick of the marketplace. It is understandable that a man can attain to purity of mind if he breaks away from his attachments, but it is really difficult to realize that one can remain unattached and innocent in the very midst of relationships and attachments, that one can remain calm and still live at the very center of the cyclone. There is no difficulty in accepting that the flame of a candle will remain steady and still in a place well secluded from winds and storms, but how can you believe that a candle can keep burning steadily even in the midst of raging storms and hurricanes? So it is difficult even for those who are close to Krishna to understand him. “
    ~ Osho, Krishna: The Man and His Philosophy

  29. Came across this interesting RBI document on the number of factories in India by state.

    Interestingly, Tamil Nadu has the highest number of factories in India. Much more than Maharashtra and Gujarat.

    This probably indicates that TN has a large number of small factories while these other states have larger units like refineries and all?

    Could also be a function of methodology but interesting nonetheless.

    https://www.rbi.org.in/Scripts/PublicationsView.aspx?id=17697

    1. TN is a leader when it comes to manufacturing. Gujarat and MH are the other leaders in this.

  30. China Opens Rail Line With Access to Indian Ocean via Myanmar”
    The rail line will enable China to trans-ship cargo from Singapore Port via Myanmar. Cargo will be shipped from Singapore Port to Yangon Port. “

    More likely Transshipment via Sri Lanka. as SL Hambantota Port capacity increases. Completely by passing Singapore and Malacca Straits, a choke point and to a great extent controlled by US.
    Expect a similar Train Line across Afghanistan if it can be tamed and or defended

    Link in next post

    1. Transshipment to Yangon makes it even easier for India to interdict commercial shipping. Its right into the mouth of Andaman Islands.

      China’s long term problem is that they cannot access Europe, Middle East or the Central Asian zone in a manner that is safe, interdiction-free and non-volatile.

      Geography is a prison. And your cellmate is Indian!!

  31. At stake was the government’s long-standing proprietorship of patents on inventions resulting from the research it underwrote. The proposed legislation would hand patents over to the private contractors that conducted research at government expense, essentially gutting the government’s ownership stake and paving the way for monopolization. The bill’s supporters — those in favor of removing this block — included drug companies, venture capital firms, university patent offices, and the nascent biotech industry.

    https://theintercept.com/2021/08/29/bayh-dole-act-public-science-patents/

  32. Hindustan Turbo Trainer passes spin trials proving it is not a dud like HJT-36. Plane looks very good unlike the NAL’s shitty build quality Hansa.

    It will be a ~6000 crore affair but it gives HAL much needed design experience.

    A few more successes like these and maybe India would have a solid 20-30 good small aircraft designers outside of ADA. Maybe even a startup that in civil aviation.

    Baby steps.

    Way to go!

    1. GoI still hasn’t let go of pissu Air India. I genuinely fear for Tatas who are going to buy it, hopefully they know what they are doing.

      HAL’s goal is to make aircrafts for the Pakistanis one day after we lose a war and the country. These guys, DRDO and babus will be the primary reason if our fore-skins ever get chopped off.

      ###

      @Prats

      Joby is the front runner on all metrics, it is the big one who listed via SPAC. Tesla for Electric-VTOLs.

      I think a lot can be done in this area but it needs a team of 2-5 serious and determined people hustling full-time on the ground in Bangalore.

      Talking to a college friend of mine who is a partner at a VC-firm in Bangalore-Mumbai-Delhi, I understood that Indian VC’s are ready to put <$1 million seed and <$10 million series-A bets on hard-tech too if the founders have right experience and academic credentials.

      1. Yeah, man. Hard tech funding is coming to India. Check out Pi Ventures or ARTPARK or Entrepreneur First. But it’s still not enough. There’s also a talent bottleneck.

        Btw if a couple of years down the line, you do want to start something of your own making some large machines like Joby then let me know. I could try to connect you to the right people.

        We need more ambitious people on the ground here.

  33. @Enigma

    “Dravidian movement has been a failure for a long time, it will be replaced by Tamil Nationalist parties(no not by idiots like Semen)”

    How has the dravidian movement been a failure . Also what do you mean by Tamil nationalism (separatism?) Or do you mean that they would leave dravidian identity and only focus on Tamil identity but isn’t that what Dravidian movement does in practice even now

    1. Also, another question needs to be asked.

      Tamil Nationalism of whom? That of the Vellalas, or the non-vellalas? Both are different.

      There was tamil nationalism in srilanka too, before LTTE. It was moderate because it was led by the Vellalas. Then LTTE came with its own view, and it was militant/terrorist.

      Similarly, there was a tamil nationalism of sorts even in tamil nadu in the earlier 20th century, and it was led by the Vellalas too. I believe the thani tamil iyakkam was formed around the same time as the justice party. 1916.

      What seeman is doing today is analogous to LTTE’s stand. The non-vellala version of Tamil nationalism.

      But here’s the thing. I see nadars and kallars are most conspicuous in Naam Nadar Katchi. This Tamil nationalism of the non-vellalas of tamilnadu will never grow as big as it did in Jaffna. It’s because a) the non-vellalas of tamil country were never oppressed like those of Jaffna were. So they have no need to blast out in opposition like those in Jaffna did. b) the shameless nadars who are talking of Tamil nationalism are actually the very soldiers of Dravidian movement. Nadars and drav movt, especially Periyar, have very very close ties. Nadars owe all their growth to conversion, Dravidian movement, and Periyar.

      They dont have moral right. They have become super rich recently and end of eelam war was just an opportune moment for them to enter politics by capitalising on the sympathy. The Tamil nationalism of the non-vellalas will not grow into a militant or non-militant one like it did in Jaffna. What will happen is that the vellala and non-vellala groups will arrive at a deal. Tamil nationalism was originally of the Vellalas. They will push the kids aside and take over.

      Actually, I doubt if seeman was sent by chettiar-mudaliar-pillai (Dravidian) movement to oppose them. They keep saying that what is important is not whether you are opposed or supported, but whether you’re a talking point or not. To not be ignored or sidelined is the important thing. Did drav movt send seeman to cutely oppose them so they can be in limelight? Because seeman was with suba veerapandian Chettiar and DK for a decade I think.

      If a tamil nationalism takes root, it’s simply that nagarathar+vellalar have changed their costumes, shifted mode from ‘drav’ to ‘tam nat’ and formed some kind of a deal with the non-vellalas. Pls don’t call it a radical shift from the Dravidian movement, lol!

      They are doing this to make it seem as if they didn’t do the Dravidian movement. As if they had nothing to do with it. Most of the people in naam nadar katchi and TN BJP :- vanniyar, nadar, konar, gavundar are the ex-soldiers of chettiar-mudaliar-pillai (Dravidian) movement. They kept it alive for a century.

    2. Dravidian Movement was meant to be a Nationalism for the entire S India, Linguistic Reorganisation of India killed any hope for S-Indian unity. Hence, Dravidianism is officially a failed ideology. It only pays lip service to Dravidian Unity while pandering to Tamils.

      The Anti-Hindu “Militant Atheism” of Dravidianism relied on the theory that Hinduism is a creation of Aryans and that Dravidians are better off rejecting it. That did not happen either, Dravidianism failed at every single thing it set out to accomplish.

      1. Excuse me. Sorry for being nosey but I want to clarify a few things about Dravidian Movement.

        It was not anti-hindu. That was a false alarm. Problem is…all these things sound very posh when conversing with big people, but it is far removed from the reality on the ground.

        The ‘anti-hindu’ part was a false alarm. Like, for ex, in the currently ongoing all-caste-priesthood issue, they never fail to mention that Periyar was against Hinduism and against religion, esp Hinduism, but that he fought for the rights of lower caste Hindus within that religion/temple etc.

        The ‘anti-hindu’ part and the atheism part is just a non-issue and a false alarm. They just want ton portray themselves as being revolutionary of sorts, and add tons of great emotion to their propaganda. Just want to sound cool and rebellious by saying something mofo’ing crazy kinda thing. They don’t mean to be taken seriously. ​

        Dravidian Movt (& the Brahmin hate in it) were constructed by the topmost tamil castes :- Chettiar + Mudaliar + Pillai. And it then who kept that ‘dravidian’ sociopolitical worldview and hate alive till today. And, I guess people would know that this trio – Chettiar + Mudaliar + Pillai are the most devout and sanskritized Hindus among Tamils. They were patrons of Vedic Hinduism in tamil lands for centuries. So chettiar-mudaliar-pillai (Dravidian Movement) was neither anti-hindu nor anti-upper caste. It is only anti-brahmin.

        Ur forgetting that they also said “there is no such thing as ‘hinduism’. That was the name sir William Jones gave us. What is known as ‘hinuduism’ today is just brahminism”.

        So, they equated Hinduism with brahminism and varnashrama and claimed to oppose it, while imbibing it and sanskritising themselves all along. And you say ‘atheism’, but the word the movt used was ‘kadavul maruppu’, or, ‘denial-of-god’. It’s different. Atheism is within the realm of religion and philosophy. But their kadavul maruppu was fully politics and hate.

        Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai (Dravidian) movement said that Brahmins introduced caste system and oppression to india and Tamils using their scriptures, and using fear of God, and that this was why they deny god, and that they have no problem with God per se.

        As you can see brahmin hate is where all their roads end up. It’s because it was created and has been kept alive by the highest Tamils and they had hate towards the Brahmins because they were higher than them. And non-human levels of hate albeit completely non-violent, has been spewed against Brahmins in tamil country for one hundred years.

        The most hinduest of Tamils built Dravidian movement. It is neither atheistic, nor anti hindu. Those are false alarms and non-issues. Actually, they got fully into ‘uplifting lower caste mode’ and said that they said everything to destroy caste system only. They are prolific liars. In truth, they are not even against casteism, which they said was their reason for opposing everything. There was only brahmin hate.

        Dravidian Movement was orchestrated by the British to defeat the freedom struggle of the Congress. They used their loyal elites on the ground, which was basically all the who’s who in tamil country. Brahmins in Congress were most actively agitating for freedom (even though it was in itself weak and bourgeoisie) and bombay and Madras were their centers.

        So, chettiar-mudaliar-pillai (Dravidian) Movement was just brahmin hate of the topmost and influential tamil elites + the British given assignment to thwart freedom struggle and secure British rule in South. Thats how it started. Later on, they just extended that legacy.

  34. Afghanistan’s economy is choking. Time to open up Food Corporation of India’s granaries might be coming soon. I hope Modi makes sure his image and ‘Afghan-India friendship’ is laser etched into every single grain of rice. Food and Health create more goodwill than dams or roads, they cost less too.

    1. I am conflicted abt that. All economic assistance now would be routed thru Taliban and it would set a precedent where Taliban/China/Pakistan would rule the country without suffereing the consequences since the West/India would pick up the economic tab.

      This is what Omar bhai says as US leaving Afghanistan but not really leaving Afghanistan. Till there is no clean break, you would see Taliban/China/Pakistan gaming the system.

      1. Hmm… I kind of agree. India might be able to contain itself. But I can guarantee Americans being ‘third rate lower middal class pepul whose ancestors were thrown out of England’ will definitely make this mistake.

  35. Americans will not send any aid. But the Europeans will because they don’t want an increasing stream of refugees. Already EU is warming up to the TB. Several foriegn ministers are also slated to visit Islamabad wanting Pakistan to take their burden in return for dollars. I am sure Pak establishment will milk them for a lot of €s, although I hope they refuse to accept any Afghan refugees and direct them west towards Europe so that those that invaded get to eat the fruits of their invasion.

    1. I am doubtfull that even with whatever aid EU sends, and Chinese/Russians pitching in, it will still not be enough for Afghanistan. The US did most of the heavy lifting, and even without sanctions, Afghanistan will just role over from crisis to crisis.

      On refugee front i doubt that surrounding countries like Pakistan can do much. Turkey is a good example, where even when it housed refugee in exchange of dollars, eventually Erdogan realised that in the long term its a lose-lose situation, and those dollars stream will dry down, and even he has to erect walls like how the Europeans are doing it. I would venture a guess that Pakistan has spend far more resources on the Afghan refugees of the past war, then it would have got money from UN/EU/US. In the short term yes, the money helps, but then the refugees start having family..

        1. That;s the thing, refugees irrespective of whether they assimilate or not are still ‘unnatural’ addition to your population. Perhaps if they assimilate they would be less social tensions. Though i have my doubts even how much Afghans can be really assimilated in Pakistan without changing the current character of Pakistan itself.

      1. We already hosting millions of Afghans since the 80’s. 3 million is the official figure, but if I were to guess the real number is almost double that. Many Afghans also have acquired Pakistani ID cards. Area I grew up in was quite close to Afghan refugee hub in Karachi.. It was the local hub of petty crime like trade of smuggled items and illicit goods and drugs, but nowhere near a disaster like some ghettos I have seen in the US..

        I doubt a few thousands Afghans moving to Pakistan will have much effect, and at least this time there is a border fence and the government is not keen on taken mass numbers in, despite intense US and EU pressure. Let them take in the refugees, they caused the problems they must face the music.

        Turkey is building a fence because they already have enough Syrians to end EU if they want, more Afghans don’t add to their leverage. Iran and Pakistan will likely be looking to milk the West.

  36. Pakistan’s leverage is very low. Iran actually has a lot more leverage since that is the primary pathway for refugees into Europe, but since Israel has huge influence over the US middle-eastern policy (and Europe are run by spineless cowards who don’t dare to oppose the US), I remain skeptical that Iran will do much with this, as it would require Europe breaking with US-imposed rules (in turn influenced by Israel).

    There will be some refugees, but it is very clear that it won’t be a repeat of 2015. All over Europe, walls are going up. Even Turkey is no longer willing to be a passive spectator, as Erdogan is building a border across the eastern borders.

    All in all, the war in Afghanistan was a gigantic boondoggle for US MIC with no other real winner. I saw a map that showed that the Taliban had *less* territory in 2001 than they do now. Europe’s approach to try to bribe everyone to co-operate is only of limited utility. Sooner or later, the whole Asylum-Industrial Complex will need to be shut down. Refugees know that it is almost impossible to get deported once you’re in Europe, so it’s all about getting there, less important to actually get asylum as there are tons of ways of going underground.

    P.S. Lots of refugees are coming from Pakistan itself, as well as Bangladesh. This is disguised economic migration. If Pakistan doesn’t play ball, then it will lose GSP+ access to Schengen and EU can easily pressure FATF to move Pakitan to the blacklist, certainly India would be cheering and China has limited capacity to influence FATF. Such a move would essentially cause Pakistan to move to the brink of default.

    Pakistan has played its limited hand quite well, but if it forgets its very, very soft underbelly things can go ugly, fast.

    1. They had gone against the wishes of US by upholding the Iran nuclear deal, so Europe giving money to Iran to stop refugees shouldn’t be as unlikely as most people would think

    2. Indians are just bad negotiators and this post outlining doom and gloom demonstrates this.
      Keep on playing saanp seerhi and leave poker to others! I don’t see how EU is in a position to blackmail seeing that even an influx of another million or 2 refugees would spell the end of EU. Iran, Pakistan, Turkey hold all the cards here and each will get what they are due.

      1. Lol wtf would good negotiations include. India has and never has had any cards in Afganistan. Pak has lucked out with geography. Their real genius is terrorist proxy wars.

        Q, please enlighten us on the foreign policy negotiations India could have done at all. I don’t see much India could have done differently. They never had much stake in this game.

  37. The Pakistani NSA, twice insinuated in interviews that the West risked another 9/11 if they did not engage with Pakistan and Afghanistan. And then stated that he did not mean that.

    Realisation is slowly sinking in.

  38. Pak is King in this foreign policy game. It has successful invaded and subdued afganistan and will now blackmail the West.

    China is still biggest winner, IMO

    Deobandi Pak Jihad appears to be even more powerful tha ISIS was. Incredible.

  39. https://thediplomat.com/2021/09/chinas-hydropower-plan-on-the-brahmaputra/

    “The Brahmaputra River is of great importance to both India and China. For India, it accounts for nearly 30 percent of the country’s freshwater resources and about 44 percent of its total hydropower potential. In China, the Brahmaputra holds great significance for Tibet, given its status as the birthplace of the Tibetan civilization. T”

    CCP has India by the balls on this one. India can do some similar shit in Kashmir to Pak water supply as well. This is all going to get quite ugly. Again, apart from climate change, the CCP and radical islam are the greatest threats to global peace and prosperity in our time.

    1. “…apart from climate change, the CCP and radical islam are the greatest threats to global peace and prosperity in our time”

      I’ve seen you make this comment a few times, (and I obviously agree on the climate change bit) but I think you’re missing out the greatest threat here – the US Mil Ind complex with it’s thirst for for more war and destruction to drive greater and greater arms sales – think Iraq, Syria, Afg, etc. We’ve all seen that figure of 2 T$ being thrown around for the cost of war in Afg but I wager that a large part of that has been funneled back into the arms contractors, private security and other rotten tentacles of this MIC. Woke values have or will soon be weaponised as a stick to beat up other countries, with the threat of first economic coercion and then military intervention to those that don’t fall in line. I’m not for one minute taking the CCP’s side here (they are evil in a whole other, different way) but they are increasingly seen as presenting the only ideological alternative to the hawkish US state that hides behind wokism and its no surprise that Russia, Turkey, Hungary, etc. are throwing their lot with the CCP in addition to the usual suspects like Pak.

      India (and the nations of W Europe) will soon have to conclusively choose between the devil and the deep sea, and given the caliber of our diplomats and strategic thinkers this is a game that we sadly don’t have the smarts to play.

      1. I dont think we even need smarts to play this game. I just hope our diplomats/strategists become too clever by half on this.

        We have one and only one choice. Unlike the Cold war, India has one of the rival super power at its door step. The choice is acquesing (with questionable benifits) or taking the side of unquestionable the better power here. Already lost lot of time with all this non -allignment and multi-allignment bullshit. The choice is facing us, but sadly, we wont choose.

  40. Pak, largely Bidari supremacist driven, hatred of the “Bania” boogeyman keeps coming up. Appears that Banias are seen as different religiously like Brahmins but also less aryan and racially inferior on top of that, in the typically highly racialist S Asian paradigm. Definite envy plays into it. It infuriates them that a darker people from a different religious group has money and power. It is similar to racist WASP envy of jews in early 20th century.

  41. ‘China bans ‘effeminate’ male celebrities from TV stations’

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/china-bans-effeminate-male-celebrities-from-tv-stations-vtrw300n7

    China and the west seem to be going in completely opposite directions.

    In a hundred years, the Americans might become a completely different sub-species of gender fluid humans with minority pockets of traditional gender roles amongst groups like Mormons and Amish. That is the end-point of WEIRD-ing.

    Would be interesting to see global politics in such a world.

    Would the Americans be considered weirdos or would they look at the rest of the world as primitive binary people? Both most likely. But a lot more interesting possibilities.

    1. //Would the Americans be considered weirdos or would they look at the rest of the world as primitive binary people//

      What does ten thousand years of human civilization tell us? One thing is for sure, it’s that patriarchy > matriarchy. Matriarchal tribes with their kumbaya songs, female goddesses, free food and peace and love for all , until patriarchal tribes worshiping male gods raid them, enslave them, kill them and take their women and resources. Pattern repeats over and over again. De-masculinity comes at a cost.

      1. There is balance. I don’t know China well enough social policy wise to see if this is a good idea.

        Taliban is hyper masculine. But they take it way too far.

      2. But among the patriarchal societies, it is the one with most freedom given to females (the West) that prevailed. So there is a balance like warlock is pointing out.

        There is also the matter of technological advancement. Undervaluing females perhaps made sense when most work was manual and mechanical. These days prosperity is usually proportional female educational attainment.

    2. The effectiveness of these bans is questionable. My friends who visit mainland China can easily still access pretty much everything.

    3. Depends on the demographics, if the west becomes half non-white in the next 50-100 years, then the west would revert back to being “normal”.

  42. The game in Afghanistan is between the Gulf States, Iran and Pakistan. Afghanistan was there for Iran to take, but other obsessions have let the Arabs in via Pakistan. But the Pakistanis have their own objectives and limitations. As is usual in geopolitics, a strategic space not consolidated by one power becomes a playground for all others, but a curse for its inhabitants.

    My expectation is that the Gulf states will prevail. They have the decisive leverage over the Taliban and Pakistan, plus religious/ethnic social capital as Arab Muslims. The question is will they let Pakistan launch an offensive for Kashmir. It will be a bitter, bloody fight with very low chance of success. But Pakistan will not be easily dissuaded, they have plenty of canon fodder.

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