Open Thread – 08/04/2021 – Brown Pundits

I didn’t post an open thread last week because we haven’t been posting much content. But I’ll post this early.

A comment thread emerged on Twitter that “Indian American” culture is basically Punjabi culture. Thoughts? It was a fork on a comment that “German American” culture is a debased form of Bavarian culture.

I still post podcasts early from Unsupervised Learning on Patreon. Thanks to everyone who is a patron, since that keeps me paying for the podcast storage and software.

210 thoughts on “Open Thread – 08/04/2021 – Brown Pundits”

  1. Tamil Nadu’s economy seems to be moving up the value chain. So many EV manufacturing units being set up. The IIT Madras incubator has been spinning off some pretty interesting companies.

    All this makes me wonder, UP has a lot of potential in this regard whenever it does get its act together.

    There are large universities with storied legacies – IIT Kanpur, BHU, AMU, Allahabad University – all of them well below their historic peak but nothing that can’t be fixed.

    There’s also plenty of Tier-2/3 but useful colleges like MNNIT, IIIT, Amity, Galgotia etc. And now you even have modern liberal arts types colleges like Shiv Nadar University coming up.

    Most decent students study at these places and then move to Delhi/Bangalore to make a career. I think that if law&order and basic infra is taken care off, we will start to see more retention of this talent via startups or large industrial units.

    1. “Tamil Nadu’s economy seems to be moving up the value chain. So many EV manufacturing units being set up. The IIT Madras incubator has been spinning off some pretty interesting companies.” That is an understatement. Tamil Nadu the Model! Tiger of Asia. And heartland of Bharat.

      I am very optimistic about UP too:
      —Tamil Nadu is one of India’s richest states with $10,587 per capita PPP income
      —UP is India’s second poorest per capita state with $3,635 per capita PPP income

      UP is likely to improve rapidly because of the low base effect. It will take decades for UP to reach the per capita income of a country such as Mexico. UP’s large Sufi and Shia population are likely to embrace modernity and globalism. They are among the most liberal muslims in the world. UP has her Islamists too, but they are gradually losing influence among UP muslims. The current CM is bold. Cutting off welfare and rations for poor families that have more than 2 children to lower population growth. Pushing hard on education, infrastructure and attracting business investment.

    2. IIT M incubator is brilliant. So many success stories.

      I think there might be a huge opportunity in construction materials in UP.
      (a) Huge population and everyone needs a house, also house is the only thing other than marriages that Indians spend money on. Plus good construction quality is easy to spot by future buyers and retains its value.
      (b) Shitty construction materials that have remained unchanged and ineffective. Think about it every building in UP has rain water seepage issue. Every damn building, every house, every office, every school, every shop…
      (c) I can come up with more reasons but think about it, if Indians can buy Korean cosmetics why can’t they be sold Dutch waterproofing? or American masonry and fittings?

      I am 80% sure that making house like the Americans is cheaper. Indians will never ditch concrete but if they can buy aluminium extrusion windows they might just buy good waterproofing. but idk there are shitty Indian brands already that don’t work.

    3. @Prats

      UP is the Rhine Valley of India. The similarities with the Cologne, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Bonn, Koblenz belt is so high. Easy waterway access to the sea, mineral resources scattered all along the Ganges Belt, good population density with cultural frameworks, high agricultural yields.

      What is missing? Political function and foresight. What is preventing that? A high level of dysfunction between the societal elites and political elites – with both sides settling for a sub-optimal socialism or a soft state-controlled market.

      I used to think Nehru was the culprit with his anti-business and anti-capitalist outlook – he violently opposed the Bombay Club. I am coming around to the view that Nehru was only the “proverbial rice grain from the cooking pot of rice”. There is a very high level of societal identification with opposition to capitalistic rent. Nehru only embodied the societal wisdom of that region.

      This has carried out to modern times. Remember the Land Acquisition Act (2013) in which RaGa, SoGa and the NAC sought to kill India’s industrialisation for ever with unacceptable costs for acquiring land. Even the BJP went along with supporting it in Parliament, afraid of upsetting the Gangetic Heartland.

      Who swallowed this poison and became Nilakantha? Tamilnadu.

      Tamilnadu Assembly passed a Legislative Act in 2018 exempting the main provisions of the LARR Act from application to the state of TN. Last week on June 29, the Supreme Court has upheld the validity of this Act under the Concurrent List. Read below article for the minutiae.

      It is expected that Karnataka and Maharashtra will follow suit in passing their amendments. This shows the power of bi-partisanship on some core long-term issues within the Tamil political sphere (DMK and AIADMK).

      The EV boom in TN is just one fruit on the tree that Tamil politicans have been growing and protecting from pests like NAC and the Nehru dynasts. Stuff like the Amendment act sends a powerful signal to business houses that TN will not tolerate anti-industrial policies. Thats why someone is ready to make a long term investment with their capital.

      Gangetic Societies and the West/Southern India have been at loggerheads in terms of economic philosophies, cultural matrixes for quite some time. For me its quite clear, Gangetic societies have to do a rebirth. Too much Vitanda (investing in wrong wisdom) has been accumulated.

      1. UP is the Rhine Valley of India. The similarities with the Cologne, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Bonn, Koblenz belt is so high. Easy waterway access to the sea, mineral resources scattered all along the Ganges Belt, good population density with cultural frameworks, high agricultural yields.

        The similarities certainly exist. The place where the analogy breaks is that the access to sea is via Bengal. It’d be the equivalent of the Rhine flowing into the sea via East Germany.

        Apart from whatever social and policy failures of the Gangetic belt, Bengal falling to the commies has pretty much handicapped the east-of-Kanpur wing of India.

        1. …..access to sea is via Bengal…..flowing into the sea via East Germany…..Bengal falling to the commies…..

          I disagree here. We can dump many ills on W Bengal but this one is not warranted. The Index of Industrial Production (IIP) time series for the decades between 1970s and 2000s for W Bengal shows that it was way ahead of UP. So even while they started to lag behind other Indian regions (West, South), they still were ticking over quite well.

          Additionally India’s first inland waterway was NW-1 from Allahabad to Haldia and has been operational for quite some time (since 1980s). This has been criminally under-utilized until recently. Gadkari is turning it around.

        2. When in doubt, blame Bengal. Even though it has consistently outperformed places like UP and is much, much better in virtually every measure.

      2. and protecting from pests like NAC and the Nehru dynasts.

        sadly t n govt now has an ‘ economic advisory board’ with the likes of jean druze, raghuram rajan etc.

    4. I disagree, Reliance is not investing in EV but rather hydrogen fuel and Solar. From what I have read, EV manufacturing in india is a good thing but it won’t be feasible as long as the power gencoms shift to nuclear or non coal based production. I have genuine respect for EVs but it’s a lazy route. I haven’t read good research in India done on hydrogen fuel cells and hydrogen economy. Germany is shifting towards hydrogen economy but doing it silently because it has made so much noise on EVs and renewables?

    1. @thewarlock, BBC shared other side of the vandana katariya’s story. The accused family has bad relations with vandana’s family as so it’s not a sudden, random incident, one of vandana’s brother even says that there is no case of SC/ST act as there were no casteist slurs made by the accused(it was vandana’s other brother who said that slurs were made against his family). If you can read hindi, read this

    1. @Narasingha Deva
      If India’s telecom sector becomes a duopoly, then it is not such a bad situation to be in. It is already effectively a tripoly. I think that GoI by not intervening in Vodafone-Idea have made the correct economic decision.

      Sometimes things that are born should be allowed to die. A newborn could take the place of the departed.

    1. Narasingha, the Taliban have lost over 5,000 killed in action in just the past month. The Taliban have a very tough fight ahead of them. And there is a very good chance the GIRoA and ANDSF will hold their own.

      How likely do you see India donating additional Mi35 helicopters, Mi17 helicopters, D30 artillery pieces, spare parts, ammunition, maintenance, upgrades to the ANDSF? Additional officer and NCO training inside India? This is as part of a deal that involves many other countries increasing their assistance to the ANDSF.

      What are your thoughts on:

      1. Lashkargah has fallen to the Taliban and Herat is likely to soon follow. Taliban pretty much control the entire country side except some Hazara areas, and all the major border crossings except Torkham. It is looking grim for the Afghan government when their defence minister barely makes it out alive after an attack on the most secure place in the entire country. The figures you quote are from ANA sources which may be inflating the numbers for morale.. but what do I know.. all I can say is that a lot of videos on Twitter tell a different story.. it is said that in a war truth is the first casualty.. which is true in this case as well as both sides exaggerate their successes. But the momentum is undeniably with the IEA.

        1. Did you mention Herat as a typo? How can Herat city or the Herat airport fall in the next few months?

          How will the Taliban be able to deploy enough troops, artillery, tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, mortars, fuel, spare parts, ammunition to make a another major offensive against Herat city or airport? It is far from Pakistan. Plus the local arbekai will be incredibly difficult for the Taliban to fight. For Shia it is life or death.

          The last major Taliban attack against Herat city was a catastrophic defeat for them. After the Heratis killed and drove out the Taliban, they started cheering and shouting their support for the ANDSF and denouncing the Taliban. This directly led to the large pro ANDSF demonstrations across Afghanistan.

          The attack on Herat a week ago was a diversionary feint to avoid the ANDSF deploying more forces more quickly to Helmand, and reducing the size the force sent to Helmand. The main Pakistani Army offensive is against Lashkar Gah. But for them to win in Lashkar Gah, they need to prevent more ANDSF from redeploying from other parts of the country.

          The local arbekai and 207th ANA Corps are now clearing several villages and towns near Herat city. However they might be recalled to the city proper since Afghan MoD’s, MoI’s and NDS’ main priority is the battle in Helmand and they appear to not be resupplying the ANSF near Herat. The local arbekai still has 2 thousand troops without rifles. I also suspect the ANASOF (ANA Special Operation Forces) will be redeployed from Herat–where they are not needed–to Helmand and Kandahar. The battle in southern Afghanistan is some of the toughest fighting the world has seen in generations.

        2. Not all the country. They do not control the provincial capitals- except for maybe one of them which fell a couple hours ago.

  2. Lashkargah has not fallen. However the battle of Lashkargah might be reminiscient of the the second battle of Falluja:
    Not sure how many buildings in the city will survive. 🙁 The ANDSF has asked almost all civilians to leave Lashkargah until Lashkargah is cleared. Losses for the Taliban, ANDSF and local arbekai (local militia) in Laskhar Gah are extremely high.

    ” Taliban pretty much control the entire country side except some Hazara areas, and all the major border crossings except Torkham” You know better than to trust Pakistani Army propoganda 🙂 Many rural districts are not “controlled” by either the ANDSF nor the Taliban. Both are involved in mass manouver warfare on many fronts and have no troops to spare for remote or fly-over districts. Literally a Taliban logistical column travels through a district between point A and point B. And voila the district belongs to the Taliban. And then an ANA convoy drives through the same district and voila . . . it is ANDSF again. Nothing has really changed.

    The ANDSF still hold 6 major border crossings which are very busy.The GIRoA and ANSF are completely out of cash and desperately need a large cash infusion.

    However the Taliban have also been devastated and are being reinforced by many tens of thousands of fresh troops from Pakistan.

    The first major Pakistani Army offensive involving 10,000 to 20,000 of their troops as embedded advisors and billions of dollars has not been as successful as they projected. Now COAS commanding General Qamar Javed Bajwa has to decide whether to double down with another 20,000 embedded combat advisors and several billion more dollars. If COAS Gen Bajwa decides to reinforce the Taliban, what will the reaction of the international community be? He is taking a big risk deploying so many infantry fighting vehicles, tanks, artillery pieces and expensive rockets in the Taliban offensive. Should the international community decide to increase CAS for the ANDSF, it will be a shooting gallery.

    I would argue that the psychological momentum is with the ANDSF. The Pakistanis now have long and difficult supply lines. Their supply collumns can be bombed and shelled by the ANDSF. Plus the Pakistanis/Taliban now have to move their logistics through a lot of territory where the locals are hostile to them. The NDS can rally local village arkebai behind Taliban front lines, playing havac with resupply to the front. Then the tens of thousands of fresh troops from Pakistan will be busy cleaning up supply lines versus reinforcing the front lines.

    Please feel free to post any data you come across under the article as a comment.

    My guess is that the ANDSF will soon be augmented by over 100,000 arbekai if they can get money. However these arbekai are local and cannot be used in manoeuver warfare.

    1. I have no intention of arguing over this, you seem to have a dog in this fight, I don’t. Pretty much all your info is basically coming from Afghan Ministry of Defence so I take it with a big bag of salt. Each side believes they will win, all I see is 1 week ago ANA had Lashkargah, now Taliban control 95% of it. Herat is also under siege and I don’t expect it to last long. ANA soldiers, local police chiefs and personals are surrendering to IEA..and there are several videos circulating on twitter providing proof of this. The other side is not providing any proof, just making claims. Yes airstrikes may kill a lot of Taliban fighters but also civilians and nobody is verifying who is who. Taliban were not expected to assault the provicial capitals until after September, but it seems like they have already and it’s August. The only advantage the ANSF have over Taliban is the AAF. However how long will AAF survive without western support? It’s just a matter of time.

  3. @Razib How much West Eurasian admixture do native Melanesians and Polynesians have?
    and Where do I get the admixture percentages of South Asian communities?

  4. Current war is Pak army vs. Afganistan Army. Pak army is just balancing not showing too much direct involvement so as to not draw international condemnation any further and placate enough of the core Taliban base (make them still think they are mostly in control). I mean Pak army is stronger than Aghan army.


    Interesting video. Anecdotal observations agree. Data agrees too, from what I’ve seen.

    Btw, before anyone says NW S Asians are some magic exception. Low muscle mass at birth (good correlator of eventual mass) is also documented among British Pakistanis as well, an overwhelmingly Birdari Punjabi population. Studies are cited in intro section of ancient origins of S Asian low muscle mass paper I cited before. Of course, there are exceptions. And even if some groups are shifted 10-15% better than others, they will have way more outliers in the elite just based on how stats work.

    Regardless, looking at Olympics, Indians show focus on skill sports and low weight class.combat sports. As long as they keep their calories under control and workout, they can have a decent enough body composition for low weight class combat sports.

    Now, exceptions still should be nurtured. The likes of Chopra in javelin are an example. What is interesting is that field sports often favor long limbs relative to torso. So S Asians have that as a given almost. They just have to luck out with height and bit bigger frame. Height seems best in Kerela and Punjab in S Asia. Frame size does appear bit bigger (not by the amount some claim) as one goes NW. And khatris are most diversified in their success in the whole of subcontinent. It makes perfect sense they produced a Chopra type for javelin.

      1. Ah ok. They are among max steppe people. They and haryana jaats. Steppe does seem to correlate with thicker frame and aasi smaller frame. IVC related seems neutral. Hence why you still seem big people from South, the likes of Sangram Chougle.

        Whats sad is the only Guju to win an individual medal in history is from US. Raj Bhavsar. Sports culture sucks in Gujarat in India. They need to invest a lot more and get out of this “only bijness class” mindset.

        Parsis already have. Now the rest have to follow suit. There is the Patel who qualified for swimming this time around. Something different there.

        1. Balangoda Man: Certain samples of Balangoda Man were estimated to be 174 cm tall for males and 166 cm tall for females, a significantly higher figure than modern day Sri Lankan populations. They also had thick skull-bones, prominent supraorbital ridges, depressed noses, heavy jaws, short necks and conspicuously large teeth

          In Sri Lanka this pheno/geno type are natural athletes. Sri Lankan (and South Indian) issue is discipline, consistency and persistence. Also to have coaches that will push that will instill discipline.

          Susanthika Jayasinghe. I think she won two medals at Olympics.

          My classmate Herman Tillekeratne was a natural athlete. It was a joy to watch him do the butterfly and dolphin swims. No practice or training. He was called Balangoda Manavarya (ancient human). A really gentle giant.
          My mother and Herman Tikka on extreme right.

        2. Interestingly Herman Tikkas (and my grandmothers) ancestors were from Balangoda. They were sent into the deep south to be administrators.

          My grandmother was Miss Tillekeratne but her mother was Irish as in direct from Ireland.

        3. Be careful of racialist explanations for bodybuilding and sports.

          I looked up the best Indian bodybuilders and didn’t see a pattern. All over the map. Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu and Punjab over represented.

          Sri Lankan AASI heavy people dominate the sprinting events at the south Asian games.

          Indians weight lifting Olympic medals are from North east and Andhra (both women)

          A lot of middle class Indians in the Olympics are employed by the railways or the army or the police anyone know why that is ?

          1. “A lot of middle class Indians in the Olympics are employed by the railways or the army or the police anyone know why that is ?”
            (1) A lot of people get into sports to get a job here.
            (2) Because there are zero public sports facilities or sports-culture the only people who can pursue it professionally are either ones who get into Sports Authority of India colleges/centers/hostels or the ones who have access to a facility via Army/Railway/Police/Air-India.

          2. There does seem to be a pattern of the shorter sprints and long jump having KL/TN males overrepresented. And this carries over to the south asian games sprints where sri lanka is overrepresented and pakistan is a no-show. Then for upper-body strength focused shot put and what not, NW indians dominate (with occasional exceptions like vikas gowda). Tomorrow the javelin finals have a nw indian and a pakistani coming in with the best throws in qualifications. And today the KL/TN boys did surprisingly well in the 4 x 400m relay, just a hair shy of finals qualification (but beating jamaica, france, britain and germany!). That seems to be the sweet spot distance that indian genetics might accomodate.

        4. “aasi smaller frame” — @thewarlock, the mesolithic gangetic plains dwellers were the tallest(average male height of around 179-180 cm if I remember correctly) and most robust people of their time.

  6. On the Taliban. India dropped the ball by not engaging with them much sooner but hope is far from lost. The Taliban in Afghanistan are an entirely different breed than the Taliban in Pakistan. The Afghani ones often call the Pakistanis “Punjabis” as they see them that way. The Taliban are as much about ethnic nationalism as about religion and Pakistan is a bigger issue for them than India in this regard.

    On bodybuilding and race. When it comes to grip strength, there are sizable differences but as always, how much of this is due to nutrition and how much to genetics? Beats me. At any rate, my impression is that India generally speaking underinvests in sports. This seems to be a cultural trait. Here where I live (Northern Europe), we have begun to get more and more Indians but outside of massively swelling the long-dormant cricket clubs, you don’t see them so often running, cycling or in the gym, let alone other kinds of sports.

    Maybe it’s an issue of selection bias: Indian immigrants to the West tend to be from the upper-middle class and thus sports are far below their cultural priorities? Maybe, but white upper-middle class people tend to be very physically active in my experience and often interested in sports to a large amount. I think this ultimately comes to do relative Indian disinterest in sports participation (outside of cricket) vis-a-vis other groups of peoples rather than any permanent handicap.

  7. India’s eldery population to rise 41% over next decade, will touch 194 million

    India is a young society, but not for long. Fertility is already at replacement level and falling. Median age is not much lower than Mexico’s, while per capita GDP is about 4X lower. For this reason, I never understood why so many Indians are *obsessed* with population control. That meme should have died in the 1990s. Biggest problem for India is rapid aging and low fertility.

  8. I had a most delightful 10 day road trip through Denmark and Sweden. The weather was great, an uniform 24 deg C, not even a hint of cloud throughout the stretch and got to view some excellent vistas.

    I dropped in at the Danish NationalMuseet (Museum) while in Copenhagen and spent a most illuminating 5 hours. Whoever curated that museum deserves a standing applause. The list of exhibits begins from the Mesolithic and peaks in Bronze Age artifacts. Midway I realised that the Peat Bogs of Scandinavia have contributed greatly to their own deep understanding of history.

    I saw the skeletal remains of a woman from 4000 BC still fully dressed in her funerary woollen wardrobe carefully preserved (but not as much preserved as the Tollund Man) and her jewels still in position. Just astonishing.

    For me the anti-climax was watching the Gundestrup Cauldron in person and up close. The workmanship was magnificient, no doubt. But it does not live up to its OIT provenance as some nativists claim (Subash Kak et al). There were archaeological details at the museum which never made it to Wikipedia 🙂 that had me convinced of its Bulgarian origins.

    But there was one another artifact that shined through in its perhaps, distinct Vedic shades of sun worship. The Trundholm Sun Chariot. I had neither read about or anticipated this exhibit. It is the representation of a Sun on a chariot being pulled by a horse across the skies. The audio visual track accompanying this artifact was really deep.

    Somewhere in the Early-Middle of the 2nd millennium BC, a new material culture entered the archaeological horizon of Scandinavia. Bronze swords begin to be found in graves (until then only flint knives and spears), chariots and chariot-wheels litter the landscape. And very distinct carvings of sun-worship are found in grave goods.

    @Razib – any pointers about the peopling of Scandinavia during the BA?

    Stockholm was unexpected – it is a massive city unlike Copenhagen. And its an archipelago!! This blew me away. I wasn’t prepared for this geographic encounter. Approaches the gigantic urbanism of Paris. Some of the metro stations in Stockholm are three storeys deep into the underground.

    I finally understood why the Swedes have such a successful arms industry in the world for longer than a century. Saab, Bofors – literally they are the smallest country in the world to have their own 4th generation fighter jets designed and manufactured within the country. All this achievement with a population the size of Chennai (10 million). These guys have influenced European history in Poland and Lithuania – states much larger than them.

  9. Abishek Banerjee :

    Vox has an article that says the greatest challenge to democracy is not coming from China, but from India. Imagine that… liberal elite is now positioning India as Global Enemy No. 1.

    If this does not convince you that there is a global campaign to defame India, what will?

    I’ve long stated that India’s embrace of the US is deeply foolish. Trump was always an abberation. The US is run and controlled by neoliberal elites who hate RW nationalism – Hindutva in India – just as they hate Hungary or Poland in the EU. They will not stop until BJP is undermined and destroyed. And if they fail in doing so, they will start treating India like they are treating China.

    These ruling elites don’t just think in geopolitical terms, they are also deeply invested in the politics of their potential allies. They want maximum control. India has blindly jumped into bed with people it doesn’t understand, and it will now start paying the price.

  10. The Ror has roared to victory. Good job Neeraj Chopra


    1. Vikas Kumar would be a good Browncast guest. Omar bhai, Akshar, Srikanth – please make it happen.

      We talk often about northwest and south but not enough about the Gangetic regions.

      1. From the article….”There was no Kamaraj or MGR in Uttar Pradesh”.

        “No chief minister lasted longer than 3 years….”

        Lack of a sustained OBC/Bhumiputra dominance!!

    2. “The fact that none of the smaller states will be the mainstay of raj/rashtra-bhasha Hindi and Hindutva, will be a huge relief because it will allow the governments to focus on real issues.”

      Whenever i find this sentence in an article arguing abt smaller states, i know what’s the angle they are pushing for…

        1. But then doesn;t it show if he really has our best intrest in his heart, or not?

          Just going thru a hypothetical scenario, we break up the state into 5 , 6 whatever. A decade or 2 down the line, we are in the same shit before break up. Who bears the responsibilty? Academics from Azim Premji University? IAS who would have long retired? Or Non N-Indian folks who have long envied our poltical power?

          Also will they say we fuked up and now lets rejoin the states, as if they are LEGO pieces? No , right?

    1. it may not be very right. i have attended tamil church prayers in bangalore and it does not seem very lyrical or majestical.
      in future some other party may force Adan/azan in tamil. when tamils learn about what is proclaimed in azan all hell will break loose.

      1. “when tamils learn about what is proclaimed in azan all hell will break loose.”

        Do u think really? I dont think Tamils will mind it at all.

        1. many non muslims think that azan itself is the prayer and not call for the prayer. when the words that no god is worthy of worship other than allah is said in tamil over a series of loud speakers, things will be different.

          1. Again i doubt tamils would mind. Unless DMK starts saying 2 muslims, Periyar is that Allah u referring to….

          2. No it says ”there is no god but Allah”. It doesn’t say ”there is no god worthy of worship other than Allah”. Minor difference.

      2. “in future some other party may force Adan/azan in tamil.”

        this is an interesting point. let’s see if stalin has balls to force azan and namaz recitation in tamil.

        i wonder what @Ugra has to say on this topic. 🙂 hasn’t he claimed that only the tamils are macho enough to mold their minorities in their own image. proof of the pudding is in eating.

        1. @Scorpion Eater

          This is chootiagiri with a capital C. Kind of like the Sachin-haters who diss the 100 centuries but ask “What else did he achieve?” Gangetic Dhimmis want the rest of India to look like them but sadly that ship has sailed.

          The move to mandate prayers in Tamil has a precedent in Chola history. King Rajaraja Chola I recovered the Tevaram in 1005 AD and laid the foundation for institutionalisation of the Bhakti movement in temples. Previously people only prayed to Gods but now they also worshipped the statues of Nayanars (Tamil, Telugu Saivite saints). Secondly this supplanted the Vedic rituals with Agamic.

          The Tevaram has had enormous influence on all religions of Tamil Nadu. It normalised the worship of God/Shiva in standard Tamil. When AR Rehman won the Oscar in 2009, on-stage he said “Ellam Pughazum Iraivanukke” basically a standard line from a Nagoor Hanifa song who reused Tevaram lyrics. That line means “All glory goes to the Creator/Shiva”.

          Now Iraivan (Siva) has a Chola temple in Kauai island in Hawaii – which is where Tulsi Gabbard worships. The wholesale sacralisation of other religions in Tamil has been going on for a long time.

          The Quran can be in Arabic but Tamil Muslims now routinely call their God as Allah or Iraivan. This is what you call as a cultural win. Credit also goes to the Dravidian parties who have prevented the rise of Islamic schools like Deoband on Tamil soil.

          @Scorpion Eater – have you seen Gangetic Hindus going around using the word Dua for prayer? Now tell me – who is the master and who has become a cultural slave?

          I am always happy to clarify. The Tamil cultural story needs publicity. And thanks for asking the question 🙂

          1. //but Tamil Muslims now routinely call their God as Allah or Iraivan//

            Bruh we call Allah as Khuda too. So what?

            Question is: when are you guys forcing the Azan in Tamil? Because the only guys who tried doing that were the Kemalists and after executing many clerics and protestors, even they had to give it up due to such a backlash.

        2. “Now tell me – who is the master and who has become a cultural slave”

          If only the reality would have been that different. If only…

          But i get it. The cultural angst South Hindus living under the yolk of Dravidian ideologies, that one has to constantly invent the square peg to fit in round hole.

    1. Americans seemed to be even more inept than the Soviets in Afghanistan. At least the Soviet backed govt lasted a few years. The current American backed government may collapse before they even fully leave.

      1. Afghanistan was right at USSRs border so it’s not a fair comparison. The only reason US had been able to conquer Afghanistan ,as easily as it did, was because iran was on it’s side. If the US hadn’t left JCPOA things would’ve been very different

  11. At long last, I’m finally going to India to get married! Would have happened much sooner, were it not for Coronavirus.

    I’m cognizant of India’s numerous problems…the polluted air that results in de facto smoking half a pack a day, the chutneys that will give you dysentery, the sheer lawlessness…but all that said, there is a raw, palpable, bottom-up energy that India has, that you won’t see in America’s eternal parade of suburbs and strip malls.

    1. Congrats, HMB. All the best. I’m indian-american and married to an indian-indian gal as well. So far so good!

    2. Thank you to everyone for the kind wishes! I’m a bit scared, but also optimistic for our future together!

      1. Congrats HM. Wishing you all the best!
        If you feel like sharing, please write about the search, the marriage process, and the surprises. Most of us here are first gen and dont really understand the Indian+ abcd marriage dynamic. Some of us may even have young kids that we would secretly want to one day marry someone a but rooted in Indianness( whether raised here or in the hotel country)


    “The rise of Hindu nationalism in India has brought in its wake Hindu takfirism, the search for apostates and heretics to condemn and expel from the fold. Wasn’t a pretty process in the Middle East (with Islam). It won’t be pretty in India either.”

    Finally the seeds of lesser and a more stronger Asabiya. The lesser heretics and the enemy within , the stronger Asabiya..

    1. The Chika on the lower right ‘eat beef – not Hindu’ one posts(sells? idk) her buck nude pictures on the internet. In a way it brings new energy to the Hindutva fold but real asabiya is in intolerance and street power, too much diversity of opinion makes for a muddled collective voice.

      Also, I am really scared of ever raising children in the US bhai. Aisa koi chutiya ABCD baccha nikla toh? India is a much saner place to be…

      Over time I have learned to mind my own business even among Indian American (i.e. completely ignore issues like the massive thotification of Indian(SAARC-ian) American women, craziness of Bengali-Mallu-Tamil Brahmins in the US, Khalistanis in Fresno)

      Seriously man, a significantly larger proportion of Indian Americans are ghanghor chutiya compared to Indians in India. Shortage of money and no gora person giving a sympathetic ear keeps even the dumbest people sane in India.

      1. “In a way it brings new energy to the Hindutva fold but real asabiya is in intolerance and street power, too much diversity of opinion makes for a muddled collective voice.”

        Have been talking about this, since eons. Lesser Asabiya=Stronger Asabiya. If Hinduism is everyhting, then its really nothing…

        “Seriously man, a significantly larger proportion of Indian Americans are ghanghor chutiya compared to Indians in India.”

        That was my first impression. Over time u will make peace with it.


    Exports, FDI and startups fire on all cylinders to get Indian economy back on resilient track

    Until February 2021, India had only ever had five months where goods exports had surpassed $30 billion. These five months were spread over the preceding decade. Since March 2021, India has had five straight months where goods exports have exceeded $30 billion every month. In fact, July 2021 was the first month ever that India crossed $35 billion in goods exports.

    1. How much of it is IT? Due to world moving to remote work Indians are making a killing in IT services for these tools. Wages in Bangalore-Pune have gone up significantly in the past one year.

      1. IT shouldn’t be a part of the growth in goods exports as it falls under the category of services

    1. There is a reason that none of us have ever flown in a Russian Civilian Aircraft: (unlike Sukhois or MIGs) it is hard to hide that they suck and are not maintainable.

      1. Yeah. This whole ‘should we talk 2 Taliban’ debate on Indian side is so worthless. No one has asked the Taliban if they want 2 talk 2 us.

        1. Ghani is Manmohan Singh++
          One of two things:

          1) He thinks his government can take the punishment and survive.
          2) He has no options and is putting on a brave face.

          Americans did not let Afghans to support ‘revolutionaries’ in Pakistan when there was still time. The only way out of this is a peace accord forced after a lot of Afghan supported ‘Islamic revolution’ in Pakistan. Most likely it is too late for that.

          Pakistan will never let Afghanistan live in peace. It is obvious that Afghanistan had to find ways to really hurt Pakistan if they wanted to survive.

          1. What is it with Afghan nationalists and Indians blaming Pakistan.
            Pakistan did not cause the Saur revolution that started Afghanistan’s instability. Pakistan did not invite the Soviets. Pakistan did not invite the US.

            Does Pakistan want a Pakistan friendly government in Afghanistan? Sure. That is what any rational state wants. So why doesn’t Afghan elite do exactly that? Why don’t they recognize the Durand Line or make friendly overtures towards Pakistan? They had 20 years but all they did was funnel terrorists into Pakistan with help of India. It’s not like Durand line is some hard to cross border dividing the sem2sem people like these clowns would have everyone believe. Should have just accepted it on paper like the whole world does and get along with it.

            All these Afg Nationalists in kabul tweeting #sanctionpakistan are funny. Tajikistan and Uzbekistan have closed their borders, and Iran puts their refugees in concentration camps or redirects some of them to concentration camps in Turkey. Ghoom ghuma key in sab ko Pakistan hi aana hai panah mangney, aur hum ney in ko jaga bhi de deni hai. I dont’ think Modi ji is up for taking any Afghan refugees, because if he is, I propose free Torkham to Wagah bus service.

          2. Does India want a India friendly government in Nepal? Sure.

            Does India participate in overthrowing government of Nepal? NO

            Current Nepal government published brand new maps with brand new claims on Indian territory. This was active provocation and they still got away with it just fine.

            Pakistanis are deranged.

            The main issue remains what you had pointed in the other thread: lack of discipline in Afghan Army. Pro Afghan people can talk details and Afghans can beg Pakistan all day but violence is the final argument of states.

  14. Nepal does not claim half of India’s territory, maps of some inconsequential rocks no one lives on is not exactly the same as what Afghan govt does. And if Nepal was hosting Pakistani terrorists, while Nepal’s government becomes openly pro Pakistan, then India will also do the same to it. Let’s not kid yourself that that’s exactly what India did in East Pakistan. And now India does the same in Pakistan by providing funding and arms to BLA. Geopolitics is amoral so stop believing that states have moral objectives.. they don’t.. You don’t see me making a moral based argument for Pakistan in Indian administered Kashmir because I understand the geopolitics around it.

    Pakistan ignored Afghan belligerence for first 40 odd years.. it was only when situation was completely getting fucked up in our country with refugees/arms/drugs that we armed and supported the Taliban.

    Also, I think the current Pakistani support to IEA is like overrated.. sure ISI may provide shelter to some Taliban as strategic assets and cultivate good ties with them, but Pakistan is definitely not providing its own fighters, arms, ammo and funding to them, not in any significant way like many others are claiming here.

    1. “And now India does the same in Pakistan by providing funding and arms to BLA.”

      If India was doing it proportional to its resource advantage vis-a-vis Pakistan then BLA would not have been so lame. Also, knowing Indian bureaucracy as well as I do I would be really mind-blown if any of these allegations (which are lame and inconsequential tbh because BLA is lame and inconsequential compared to say LeT) turn out to be (really) true.

      1. Anyone who has seen India’s bureaucracy closely know the reality. And its not Ajit Kumar “Devil”. The current head of RAW is some guy named Goel. I mean i would be more at ease had he been selling Haldiram at the corner of my street.

  15. @Janamejaya

    I had to dig out this old Hushkit interview of a PAF JF-17 pilot for you. The interview was conducted in July 2019, about 4 months after Balakot and the air-battle over Kashmir.

    Q: Which threat aircraft is most challenging and why? How confident do you against the M2000 and MiG-29?

    “Definitely the Su-30 is the most difficult aircraft in terms of current Indian Air Force inventory but we regularly fly against the F-16 and more importantly AMRAAM, so Adder and Alamo seem less worrisome (smily face). Mirage with MICA is definitely a real threat.”

    1. Thank you for corroborating what I was saying with further evidence.

      Su 27, the original aircraft behind all the derivatives was designed to be a pure air-superiority fighter. The Soviets had other aircraft for short and long range ground targets bombings.

      Su 30 MKI is a good air superiority fighter. However in Beyond Visual Range combat, it is outranged by western aircraft which can carry AIM-120 and similar class of missiles.

      For air to ground missions where one might want stand-off, precision strikes, Su-30 MKI is again worse off than western aircraft with missiles and smart bombs containing modern electronics.

      1. BVR combat is not a spec game where you launch something and the missile dynamics take care of the rest.

        The Su-30 MKI in the air battle after Balakot came as close as 25 Kms to the F16s. Nothing happened….even with up to 7 AMRAAMs launched by the F16s. Perhaps you can help me understand how the Flanker escaped from the AMRAAMS.

        As of date, the Su-30 MKI (a small number) is now operational with Brahmos. Precision strikes from 300 km away.

    1. Below clip is Krishna McKenzie, stays in Pondy and spouts Tamil like a villager. He is a farmer and runs a cooking channel in Tamil.

      As the economy grows, I think Indians need to get ready for the shockwave of seeing foreigners settling in India (again) and speak Indian languages fluently.

      1. Pretty cool.

        It was the Mother who was the driving force behind the manifestation of Auroville. Under the shaping influence of the Mother’s and Sri Aurobindo’s dual philosophies, Auroville emerges

        Mirra Alfassa (1878 – 1973) was born as the second child of an Egyptian mother and a Turkish father, a few months after her parents had settled in France. An extraordinarily gifted child, who became an accomplished painter and musician, she had many inner experiences from early childhood on. In her twenties she studied occultism in Algeria with Max Theon and his English wife Alma, who was a highly developed medium

        1. He is American-origin. AFAIK Tom Alter’s grand-parents were presbyterians from America who came to India as missionaries.

      1. You were right about the pace of collapse. This is more pathetic than I anticipated. The US was just inept in the end. There needs to be a deeper dive into exactly what went wrong. It isn’t like the Taliban did an amazing job at governing. They were brutal. And the people didn’t exactly have great living standards. But even that standard couldn’t be surpassed.

        This is worse than ISIS 2.0. ISIS didn’t have this degree of popular support. Pashtuns really like and want to live the way the Taliban prescribes. The culture is just like that I suppose. I think if the Americans had left the Soviets to their devices in Afghanistan, Afghanistan would be better off today and the USSR would have eventually fallen the same way anyway.

    1. I mean Pak does have some very beautiful areas. Most countries do. But Pak was very clever with the efforts they made to woo foreign bloggers. Bajwa is even seen in some photos with them. The ISI has its moments of tactical genius. India on the other hand stays more aloof to the importance of using social media in a concentrated manner to change global image, at least on a central government scale.

  16. That so-called Australian claiming he pretends to be a Pandit is actually a Kashmiri Pandit trying to pass for Australian..

  17. As the economy grows, I think Indians need to get ready for the shockwave of seeing foreigners settling in India

    Many already.

    My friend’s mom is white.
    There’s also some white people and a few east Asians at work.

  18. How is GoI managing to evacuate non-essential personnel from Afghanistan? I believe that they had an embassy/consulate in Kandahar. How did that fare when the Taliban took control of the city?

  19. America’s biggest mistake was trusting Pak. Had they forced a presence in Western Pak, the Taliban sanctuary and eventual new heartland, they would have had a much better shot at cleaning up this mess.

    In the end, this is a short term victory for radical Islam and a long term victory for global leftism via the inevitable CCP’s reaping of geopolitioeconomic spoils

    1. Even that may not be enough, however, and negotiator Zalmay Khalilzad is turning to the Taliban to try to prevail upon them to spare the US Embassy from attack if and when Kabul gets hit.

      The exchange here is that the Taliban would promise not to attack the embassy, and that the US would keep open the possibility of giving foreign aid to the Taliban government in the future. The US, of course, did provide aid to the Taliban before the invasion and occupation.

      1. Zalmay Khalilzad is a moron who should have been fired a long time ago. These people do not have the calibre to handle big things. Fuck ups after fuck ups, Vietnam to Iraq. They just act the part, attend famous universities on their daddy’s money, wear appropriate clothes and firmly shake hands while looking into the eyes. Its all sham, backed by no real competence or long hours. Incompetent men and women like him never get punished in the US, he might even get promoted. Show over substance, low performance-reward correlation. Ditto for American politicians. A people trying to fit reality to their model rather than the other way round.

        This is something I see over and over in Americans (including Indian Americans), doing some chutiya bakchodi project at Google involving ad-score optimization, or some utterly meaningless reliability-analysis work for Intel, making a lot of money and putting on the aura of being Sendhil Amithab Ramamurthy with the mind of Terence Tao. I mean bullshit works in some settings, it just doesn’t in others.

        1. Zalmay Khalilzad is a moron who should have been fired a long time ago. These people do not have the calibre to handle big things. Fuck ups after fuck ups, Vietnam to Iraq. They just act the part, attend famous universities on their daddy’s money, wear appropriate clothes and firmly shake hands while looking into the eyes

          I dont quite agree. These are the front end puppets (as is Biden and BJ Kamala) to a bigger scheme, i.e. extraction of the wealth of the US middle class and blue collar. Cant comment about Khalilzad or Biden being imbeciles, or they too are complicit as in Ghazni types who say and go with whatever and get a pay out.

          When I used the word MIC (military industrial complex) in the past was accused of paranoid conspiracy theories

          Dwight Eisenhower was the first to use the word Military Industry Complex (MIC)* in his farewell address to the nation in 1961

          In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist.

          1. A few days ago I was talking to a friend who works in astrophysics. He was furious that James Webb Space Telescope would cost 10 Billion USD. He calculated that NASA could do 50 (20? I don’t remember) missions to the Jupiter for 10 Billion dollars. Compare this to the trillions wasted on these mofo’s in DoD and DoS.

            I have seen small businesses with very competent people compete like crazy for $ 200 K in SBIR/STTR grants from the government. Professors write 20+ 10-page unique proposals a year to get one $ 500K grant. To get even a $40K NSF grant a grad student (+ advisor) works for months upon months. And all this while Pentagon throws away money, dumb-lying generals, dumb-lying politicians, dumb Americans being swindled by incompetent men and women.

          2. Bhimrao
            You forgot the 60-70% Admin Costs taken out of project funding.

            The Researcher/Professor gets just 200K for all his hard work.
            Pay grad students (thats about 40K about 20+ years ago).
            And remember Professor cannot take in more salary/mont than he makes per month for his 9 month salary.

  20. Why Pakistan ended up with so few princely states.

    Why did most, if not all, states accede to India and not Pakistan? Indeed this question has been answered over and again in terms of demographics, that most of the states were populated with a non-Muslim majority, who could not imagine being part of an ‘Islamic’ Pakistan. There was also the matter of geography. While Mountbatten in his speech to the Chamber of Princes reiterated that the princes were free to join India or Pakistan, the Congress was quick to point out the problems that might arise from such a situation. Several of the princely states, including Hyderabad, Bhopal, Junagadh, Palanpur, Rampur and others had Muslim rulers, but they remained far removed geographically from the territory of what became Pakistan. “When I say that they are at liberty to link up with either of the Dominions, may I point out that there are certain geographical compulsions that cannot be evaded. Out of something like 565 states, the vast majority are irretrievably linked..with the dominion of India,” said Mountbatten in his July 1947 speech.

    Yet, even by this logic which asserted that only those states neighbouring Pakistan were eligible to join it, one would assume that the new nation would embrace all 13 states in Punjab, Cooch Behar in Bengal and many of the states in Rajputana. But only two of the Punjab states- Khairpur and Bahawalpur, ended up acceding to Pakistan. Contrary to what one might think, not all of the border states were in support of the Congress either. Historian Ian Copland, in his 2010 published research paper explains that as late as July 1948 “Indian intelligence was still receiving reports from Rajasthan, and particularly from Jodhpur, of popular demonstrations in support of Pakistan.” Jodhpur in fact was a curious case of a Hindu king commanding a majority Hindu population, tilting towards Pakistan. Many of the border states also shared important economic ties with Sindh and West Punjab.

    Copland asserts that the best possible answer to why Pakistan was not able to acquire more of the princely states lies in the “chequered history of the League’s relationship with the princes in the last three decades of the colonial period”.

  21. ashraf ghani has left the country!!.
    i have a feeling that this ‘ peaceful transfer of power’ will not give absolute power to the winners over the population, who are used to a sense of personal freedom. very interesting indeed.
    on the other hand, battle of plassey, third battle of panipat, did not last half a day. tippu’s last war as also short.

    1. Correct me if I am wrong but this is more Plassey than Panipat. In the third battle of Panipat Marathas died bravely fighting and killing their foe. In Plassey Bengalis defected just like the ANSDF.

      1. yes,marathas did fight, but sadly never had the upper hand right from the beginning. i have had colleagues with maratha surnames from himachal etc. there were pro-genies of scattered marathas after the defeat.

  22. Taliban Division of Pak Army has full control. Pak has doubled in size again. This is the ultimate reverse 1971. I give them props. China is biggest winner. They will move in soon.

      1. Indians are wishing it happens. No sign of it yet.

        So far, @Qureshi was absolutely right all along, I was wrong.

        For all we know Taliban could be Pakistani regulars like in Kargil.

        Life goes on, shit will breed more shit but this is the highest point in Pakistan’s history.

        1. I have been saying that all this “taliban will bite back Pakistan” talk is resting on hope. Perhaps they will, not something which pak army wouldn’t factor in. Some TTP, some blasts here and there, not something Pakistan can’t live with. Have to break some eggs u wants to make an omelette.

          But let’s not go the other side and say “Afghanistan has fallen, Kashmir is next” thing. Even in height of Kashmir insurgency in 90s there were few taliban fighters. So let’s not swing from extreme to extreme.

        2. Indians are wishing it happens.

          I don’t really care much about Afghanistan or Taliban. It’s a subcontinent issue, yes, but it’s not like we share some huge border with them.
          Just another classic Islamic conflict. Plenty more in Africa still going on if any of you are interested.

          Pashtun nationalism/Duran line is on the same table as Kashmir. Taliban can pick any quest they want to.
          Kabul just happens to be a lot closer to NW-Pak than Kashmir.

  23. Pakistan does not face any significant challenge from Afghan Taleban seeing that a lot of high level strategic support was provided to them by ISI.

    However the way Taliban fought for 20 years and then blitzkreiged their way to victory inside 2 weeks without much bloodshed, it will give a lot of ideological boost to many Jihadists groups across the world who may try to imitate the same in their jurisdictions.

    This is where TTP and ISKP come in as they will likely try to carry out attacks in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pakistan may face some renewed blowback from TTP and allies.. However their funding was provided by RAW and they were trained and tasked by NDS/Ghani government to carry out attacks in Pakistan. Their sources of funds, training and intelligence have evaporated. Recent capture of NDS headquarters in various provinces and the confiscated confidential files will be quite useful for the ISI to eliminate any spies operating in both countries. All in all.. I am not worried about any significant blowback inside Pakistan from the TTP. It remains to be seen how ISKP fares though..

    As for Kashmir.. I do think Pakistan will direct any adventurous fighters who want to carry on fighting towards a newer venture in Kashmir.. and they may find local population as welcoming as the 90s due to Indian government’s crackdown. All in all I do feel the whole thing was a big net negative for India.. while a net positive for Pakistan at least for the short term. It remains to be seen how US administration sees Pakistan after the withdrawal but seeing that they still haven’t really blamed Pakistan for their loss.. they may see a lot of value in continuing to keep good relations with Pakistan.

    1. China is biggest winner. Global radical islamic terrorism is also a winner. Pak is a friend to both.

      India will just see an uptick in attacks. That’s the main consequence.

      Current US admin is leftist so it will be soft on China and quasi friendly to conservative to borderline radical islam. As long as Pak doesn’t make too much noise, they fully win this round.

      This is the biggest military victory in Pak history. It is incredible the speed at which they took over Afganistan.

    2. “As for Kashmir.. I do think Pakistan will direct any adventurous fighters who want to carry on fighting towards a newer venture in Kashmir.. and they may find local population as welcoming as the 90s due to Indian government’s crackdown. ”

      Couple of things have changed. First India is better prepared than it was in the 90s, where it completely taken aback. Plus unlike the 90s the sole super power (which is still the US) would lean on India’s side than it did during th 90s.

      Aghanistan importance for India has been blown out of proportation. Neither economically nor strategically, India has lost much. On Pakistan – US relations, i would hedge that since Afghanistan is out of equation now, US has much less need of Pakistan. If US can leave Afghanistan after sinking trillion of dollars, it can also let Pakistan move to the Chinese camp, fully knowing that its Pakistan which needs the US more (to balance China) then the other way round.

      1. // it can also let Pakistan move to the Chinese camp, fully knowing that its Pakistan which needs the US more (to balance China) then the other way round.

        So damn true. Imagine this, even when India and US were in loggerheads, US was still the biggest trading partner and not Russia. Similarly, Pakistan can get the support of its taller than mountain friend, but they cannot export/trade much to China. Whether Pakistan likes it or not, it will have to engage with US/EU on their terms. China will not keep bailing out Pakistan for ever.

    3. The US will be feeling humiliated and vengeful and they know a key reason the Taliban was able to outlast them was because of Pakistan’s aid. They will be thinking of Pakistan as far more of a China-loving enemy than a friend and will be in no mood to make nice. They don’t even have to pretend to like us as they no longer need to operate supply lines into Afghanistan.

  24. Lmfao I really enjoy reading twitter posts of Pakistani nationalists who post racist descriptions the British had for locals. They really revel in all of the “martial” talk.

    Their racialism shows time and time again. Two levels of hatred. One perceived racial and one religous. Modern trend online is much more of the former.


    Martial race he brags about as the “best built S Asians”

    This is getting to be comedic gold. He has posts bragging about ethnic Punjabi soldiers dying for “her majesty”

    He has posts praising British descriptions of Marathas being “dark.” The guy is nothing short of a classic neo radical islamist Birdari supremacist. He epitomizes the Pakdefense mindset.

  26. Martial race he brags about as the “best built S Asians”

    Kanging is the only thing they can do at this point.

    They’re bad at hockey.
    They’re bad at cricket (just lost to WI today despite sending their best team, also lost to SL at home).
    They aren’t even good enough to send a dozen athletes to the Olympics. Haven’t won a single medal in over 20 years.
    Couldn’t even make it to the top 20 on the 2018 Commonwealth Games medal table.

    They’re the furthest thing from a “martial race” today.

    1. Haven’t won a single medal in over 30 years.
      They are sending single digit athletes to Olympics (Only 4 qualified. 6 were wildcards).

      Didn’t make top 30 in 2018 Asian Games.

      And the funniest thing – Came behind Nepal and Sri Lanka in South Asian games and behind Bangladesh too if counted by total medals.

      Pakistan will remain a poor impoverished country while the rest of the world goes ahead.

      This is Pakistan’s real defeat – to remain poor and irrelevant while their hated India and even Bangladesh race ahead.

      All of Pakistan, for the first time in 20 years had turned on their tvs to watch the Olympics, only to watch an Indian win gold. Such is the fate of the Pakistani.

  27. They are really really bad at hockey. Ranked 18 in the world, below teams like Wales.

    They don’t even have a women’s team. Women’s sport in Pakistan is a disaster anyway.

    Not only there is a lack of talent, the conservative dress codes hurt them a lot. Running races in full sleeve pants. Playing badminton in fullpants.

    There was a India Pakistan badminton series in the CWG. Pakistan didn’t win a single set. Saina just beating down some long panted woman.

    And their cricket team – less said the better. Consecutive whitewashes in SA, NZ and Aus.

  28. They suffer from a lack of resources and sports finding the same as India but worse.

    Keep in mind Nigeria with 200 million people only won 2 medals in Tokyo.

    There is human biodiversity / population variance on different traits but jumping to racialist explanations for every single issue is really dumb.

    1. They suffer from a lack of resources and sports finding the same as India but worse.

      True, but cricket is still big in Pak.
      Mohammad Rizwan in T20s and Babar Azam seem to be the only world class player they have (haven’t watched them play, but stats look good). Everyone else looks either meh or inconsistent.

      Seeing that even AASI-rich and NE folk are excelling in various sports, “martial race” is the only cope they have.

      Still don’t understand how India hasn’t managed to produced any top-tier marathon runners though.

    2. You are making a mistake by assuming Nigeria had JUST two more medals than Pakistan.

      They have INFINITELY more medals than Pakistan.

      Nigeria sent a 55 member contingent (0 wildcards, all qualified). Pakistan 10 (out of which 6 were wildcards, 4 qualified).

      Nigerians are good enough to qualify but not win medals. Pakistanis aren’t even good enough to qualify.

      So it’s not like Pakistanis are just a BIT behind Nigeria. They are behind Nigeria by a huge huge factor.

      In 2018 CWG

      Nigeria – 9 Gold 9 Silver 6 Bronze
      Pakistan – 1 Gold 0 Silver 4 Bronze

      So you can see the gap.

      Pakistanis are just not inclined towards sports.

  29. It’s hard to blame the Americans too hard for the Afghanistan debacle. They lasted a lot longer there than most would have expected given their dysfunctional politics. They likely thought that at some point an Afghan figure would emerge who could unite the country against the Taliban and get a functional state and army together. Instead it was just twenty years of incompetence, theft, corruption, tribalism and endless in-fighting.

    1. No need to help less-Hindu pops. I would rather woke Punjabis (and their S-Indian comrades) see their bretheren slaughtered and live their whole life with guilt, or grovel at the feet of Hindutva to save their folks.

  30. A regrettable fate for Afghanistan. But it’s the fate they deserve, as they had no desire to fight for anything better.

    A comparison can be drawn with how the regime fared after the USSR left. Najibullah ruled largely over rubble and received limited support against an America-backed enemy. He fought valiantly for years.

    This time around, the Afghanis had a functioning capital with electricity and office buildings, and received the best military hardware our species has…and they quit while the Americans were still here.

    What a pathetic state of affairs.

    1. … they had no desire to fight for anything better.

      Can you read minds or what? The Afghan Govt. was thrown to the wolves by the Biden Administration. They were fully bypassed in the “negotiations” with the Taliban. No-one should get blamed for not being suicidal!!

      The Biden Administration did not negotiate for a “arms-down” truce with the Taliban like the rest of the world does with opponents. Now why the fuck would someone do that? Because all they wanted was to get out in one piece. Its good from an American point, but destroys the morale of those nearby.

      Even then, the Taliban did not stick to their end of the truce – they advanced way faster than agreed. It showed up the bankruptcy of the American negotiators.

      Where the Biden Admin truly slipped was that they did not anticipate the power of a “Saigon in the Internet Era”. Only Americans are talking about the ANA and its shortcomings. RoW knows who is the loser here.

  31. few thoughts:
    1. why are the taliban not requesting/ asking embassies of india, uk, usa, e u to stay back assuring them of protection? after all taliban would talk to all of these in the near future.
    2. one should appreciate the guts of abdulla abdulla , karzai and some others staying back and ” talking” to taliban. is this pre staged or just having a strong spine. karzai being a pathan will survive to be a ‘tarjuman’ of the regime. abdulla abdulla will be kept for ‘diversity’ of non pashtun.
    3. it is said that lots of money changed hands facilitating the surrenders of the regional governors. who gave the cash? china ?, russia? may be qatar???

    1. LOL. My biggest worry is the rise of Wokeness in North Indian , the likes of Mishra, Agarwals and Singh girls. S-India was always a den of woke-ness , UCs and non UCs alike…

      Almost all Indian american woke-sters were S-Indians, now this bimari has flown to North Indian americans.

      Less Hindu-ness == More woke-ness

      1. My biggest worry is the rise of Wokeness in North Indian , the likes of Mishra, Agarwals and Singh girls.

        Hehe. This is already happening. The commie-est person I know is a self-loathing JNU Agarwal girl. Her sister is an even bigger activist from what she’s told me.

        Also reminds me of this kid at office, some ‘Mathur’ guy who just graduated from college a couple of years ago. He was trying to strike up a conversation with me one day by telling me about how ‘in Republicans ka to kuchh nahi ho sakta’
        (No one can save the Republicans)

        Wokeness is aspirational.

        1. Most consistently “based” desi community I’ve come across is a section of sri lankan tamils. The sense of being expelled for their talent and industry is strong and they are at home at Tory fundraiser balls. The US Gujjus and other communities are just stunted in their ability to assimilate, they lack the choice to be anything but trad.

    2. The relevant variable here is the mother’s level of education and participation in formal workforce. In fact, this is the underlying reason for all the eventualities some here ascribe to less Hindu-ness/wokeness etc …

      1. @Vikram

        I think there’s a pop cultural component to this as well. Wokeness is considered aspirational today and kids of educated mothers can afford to aspire more.
        If tomorrow, there’s a new fad then these same people will latch on to it.

        I know of friends who were ‘dudes’ till just a few years ago spouting sexist jokes but went for MBA and started carrying pronouns in their bios.

    1. This is not surprising to anyone that knows Hindu marriage rules aside from caste there are rules around gotra etc.

      Almost all the cousin marriages in North India will be non-Hindus.

    2. There is basically a religious taboo on cousin marriage among North Indian Hindus. So it’s not surprising.

      I would bet basically all the North Indian cousins marriages are among non-Hindus.

      1. @Razib
        Could the root of WEIRD people’s opposition to cousin marriage predate Christianity and have the same root as the Gotra system in the Indo-European culture

        1. Even considering cousin marriages make me wanna puke.

          Maybe gotra will outlast caste. Among those who care, marrying within gotra is looked down much more than marrying intercaste.

          1. Why is cousin marriage so puke worthy?
            As if cousin marriage has all downsides when all of Iceland is third cousin related and doing fine.

            Also, people are throwing around gotra rules as if it is same as cousin marriage. South Indian cousins don’t marry within gotra either. Your mother’s side of family will have different gotra.

            Cross-cousin (Mbd) marriage isn’t the same as the same cousin marriage (fbd). And way less saas-bahu drama. (It’s like anybody wants to care about female wellbeing- great living up to low female birth ratio up North guys. Tomorrow someone will claim it’s less Hindu to care about female wellbeing at all… may be only male gods matter in the North and all their pregnant women folk sent to forests… to be more Hindu-like or whatever).

            The only rule for marriage outside of gotra is looking at possible relationships in last seven generations. However, within caste rules this is quite hard to find with no relationship for past seven generations. People do “extra rituals” to go around that if horoscopes match. (You would know if you studied more Hindu calendar and Jataka)
            Perhaps once in a while talk to your family priests before going all “well.. we neva!”

          2. ‘makes ME wanna puke’

            Because where I was raised they ARE my sisters, not just ‘like’ my sister. My eldest cousin brother and his wife get to do netagiri at all major ceremonies as the eldest son of the house and the eldest brother to us all.

            “Also, people are throwing around gotra rules as if it is same as cousin marriage. South Indian cousins don’t marry within gotra either. Your mother’s side of family will have different gotra.”

            I know, there are complications and noises when the gotra of the groom’s mother and gotra of the bride is the same.

            “Cross-cousin (Mbd) marriage isn’t the same as the same cousin marriage (fbd). And way less saas-bahu drama.”

            I find them both vomit-worthy. Saas-Bahu is so my parent’s generation. Now I mostly see brothers fight over who will keep the parents not property (grandparents raise kids, both parents work).

            ‘(It’s like anybody wants to care about female wellbeing- great living up to low female birth ratio up North guys. Tomorrow someone will claim it’s less Hindu to care about female wellbeing at all… may be only male gods matter in the North and all their pregnant women folk sent to forests… to be more Hindu-like or whatever).’

            I didn’t understand what you wanted to say. Sex selective feticide and infanticide is murder. North (including Bengal) is the backward, misogynistic part of India. But my family has no part in it for at least three generations now. Before that idk. In the last generation we had so many girls that most people (not me) wish to beget some baby boys for a change.

            Side story, one of my father’s first cousins did murder his daughter 40+ years ago for having an affair or something. She was 16, family legend is that he buried her in his own courtyard. No one dared go to the police. Vile man, he has been ostracized.

            ‘The only rule for marriage outside of gotra is looking at possible relationships in last seven generations. However, within caste rules this is quite hard to find with no relationship for past seven generations. People do “extra rituals” to go around that if horoscopes match. (You would know if you studied more Hindu calendar and Jataka)
            Perhaps once in a while talk to your family priests before going all “well.. we neva!”’
            Pandits do Panditai-stuff. To ME marrying maternal uncle or cross cousin is appalling. But I used to find some diets quite bizarre for quite some time so I cannot claim to be a neutral observer. To each their own.

          3. Bhimrao

            Because where I was raised they ARE my sisters, not just ‘like’ my sister.

            The map show Tamil Sri Lankans having a preponderance for cousin (cross cousin marriage).

            First of all my experience:
            Background: Very westernized Protestant Christian Tamil. Farmer Caste (Vellala).
            So I had this “cousin”, technically my niece, my cousins daughter. My cousin was my fathers eldest sisters daughter, i.e Machal i.e marriageable cousin. However, my “Machal” and many other were close to my parents age.

            So my Machals daughter was two years younger to me. They always lived far away (parents govt servants), but we would be sent there for holidays. So played etc together.

            The family got transferred to Colombo when we were late teenagers. I got sent as chaperone with my niece to plays and other events. i.e low matchmaking.

            My niece was this dark, skinny vivacious girl with flowing hair. Every time I too her out all I could think was the pleasures between her skinny legs. Unhappily for me she just that I was the nice brother who would not sneak on her flirting.

            Anyway in Sri Lanka we have two words for cousins (brother/sister) vs marriageable cousin.

            Non marriageable always called by brother sister

            Cross Cousin:
            Sinhala: Massina (male) Nana (female)
            Tamil : Machang (male) Machal (female)

            In SL the equivalent of Bro/ Mate/Pal is Machang, Massina
            i.e you my pal/mate/bro is acceptable to marry my sister.

          4. Bhimrao

            Maybe you lived in an extended family situation in a village .

            Among my paternal Tamil relatives cant think of any who married their cross cousins. Even from fathers gen, where arranged marriages were the norm,

            Maternal side, one and only uncle married his first cousin, two brothers children. He used to go there while boarded in Colombo school. Had four children, nothing wrong very very Eurasian looking.

          5. I did grow up in an extended family. Almost all my blood relations live within 3-4 divisions out of the 18 divisions of UP. All our blood relatives (200+) show up for every major family function, some factions have prestige, some have land, some have notoriety, my family is the most educated. 20-40-40 b/w village-town-city.

            Charity/detachment/service, vegetarianism, seniority, wealth and education (in that order) gets respect. Non-halal chicken and mutton is fine, but eating beef is unthinkable like marrying a cousin. Actually having grown up with cows even I think it is retarded to kill them. But to each their own.

            Abhorring even the thought of cousin marriages of any kind is the norm there from smallest villages in Bundelkhand to New Delhi or Lucknow. People privately mock Muslims as being sister-fuckers and more insultingly, their ancestors being punished by having to watch their children in-breeding. Again, to each their own.

            We once had an episode when one of my mother’s first cousin was caught (not really but it is a long story) casually consensually fucking his grandfather’s cousin’s grand-daughter (or something like that, I am not sure maybe it was even beyond third cousin). A panchayat sat down, the whole village watched the circus, that uncle was screwed for life and no one ever married him, the girl and her family were unfairly shamed and (forcibly) married off to some poor uncouth farmer. Shit happens.

  32. A democratically elected government has been overthrown by armed insurgents. The last Afghan elections saw a nearly 50% turnout. Nearly 70,000 Afghan security personnel have lost their lives in the war. There are too many superficial takes.

    1) Afghans dont have the gumption to fight.
    But Afghans are also fierce fighters.

    2) Afghans actually want Taliban rule.
    But Afghans also voted for the current government.

    3) Afghans are too disunited.
    But Afghans are also proud of their culture and independence.

    The rationalization are just getting silly. The US has cut its losses and handed Afghanistan to Pakistan, a country implicated in one of the most brutal genocides.

    As Indians, this is only a reminder of our feebleness and its devastating implications for others. We were never in the game, either to save an elected government or protect a country from Pakistan. And this is not feebleness of military strength, we had more conviction in 1971 when we were barely able to feed ourselves.

    1. I’m convinced that at least half of them were rooting for the Taliban, especially from the rural areas. No way the Taliban could’ve won without local support.

  33. “The last Afghan elections saw a nearly 50% turnout.”

    Claims made by the Western press should be double checked and triple checked. Liars figure and figures lie. Voter turnout for the 2019 Afghanistan election was a historic low, where only around 1.6 million of the 9.7 million registered voters showed up.

  34. i am not sure as to the number of afghans being trained as officers in india. currently, as per news reports there are 80. in these 20 years there should have at least be some 250??. well then is it that none of them fought?
    there were reports that one of the taliban leaders was also an india trained ex officer.
    to fight, there is obviously more than training. many of ‘taliban fighters’ we see in the news are ‘boys’!!! they would not have given a great fight to a trained army.
    some thing amiss.

  35. The inability for many of America’s elites (both elected and unelected) to genuinely think deeply and critically about their own ideological and institutional failures when the fall of Kabul happens about a week and a half after the first provincial capital falls, and the resort to the usual partisan blame game and buck passing is complete unsurprising but disappointing.

    I guess it requires some sort of massive cognitive dissonance for the same people who’ve been lying to the American public for two decades on how Afghanistan to start shifting most of the blame onto Biden.

    ‘ Factions within the Biden administration are embroiled in a blame game over why the US government didn’t act sooner to withdraw American citizens and Afghans who helped the US over two decades of war, leading to a rushed and dangerous evacuation.

    Military officials have said that for weeks they urged the State Department to move faster in evacuating its diplomatic personnel. State Department officials have said they were operating based on intelligence assessments that suggested they had more time, but intelligence officials insist that they had long reported the possibility of a rapid Taliban takeover.’

    I guess the cognitive dissonance between this ridiculous belief in American exceptionalism combined with a civilising mission on steroids vs the warning signs for the health of USA of the last few years that’s included the election of Donald Trump and Jan 6 is still strong enough for these people to still reconcile both beliefs!

    I’m looking forward to when someone writes the next version of Bernard Lewis’ ‘What Went Wrong?’, but replaces the Islamic world with the Western world!

    Westerners and liberals, in particular Americans need to realise that the era of their dominance is coming to an end for a genuinely multi cultural and multi civilisational world!

    Liberal western values are not the endpoint for all of humanity, but just another belief system with various pros and cons. I don’t know what the future will be like but I suspect genuine diversity in political systems and cultures will remain the norm for this century.

    The worst aspect of America’s elites is their desire to export their own pathologies to the rest of the world. While I feel sympathy for ordinary Afghans, my disgust towards the people running America continues to grow. Here’s hoping they can take a short break from bombing the Middle East.

  36. A woman tiktoker and her four friends were sexually assaulted and attacked by 400(!!) manoids on 14th of August, celebrating Pakistan’s independence day.

    This comes on the heels of months of public scandals, including a case where a young woman was beheaded by a privileged Pakistani man who immediatedly tried to flee to the US. This shows that these attitudes are prevalent even in the supposed “educated” ranks of Pakistani society.

    What’s hopeful is that I am seeing much more outrage than I’d see 4-5 years ago. And it isn’t just the usual Twitter tribe. On major websites like Dawn, these stories are among the most viewed and commented.

    Major Pakistani figures speak out loudly and this has forced the PM to act, too. I am noticing the positive influence of the West, here. A lot of these Op-Eds are written by highly educated Pakistani women persuing PhDs in the West in gender studies. These degrees are derided as “useless” by seething manoids, but these attacks clearly show there is an imperative for them. The war for women’s liberation is a long one, and it is far from over.

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