83 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. Well Xerxie, let’s see where we are up to. A brief review of some topics we commented on in April: massacre in Amritsar, Martin Luther, Olof the king of Swedes and Serbs, 17 Serbian Roman Emperors, cross as Serbian ancient symbol, barefooted apostles, Philistines (Goliath, Delilah and Tom Jones), Bengali famine, opium wars, Londonistan – i.e. Lud-dun founded by Lud (=crazy, in Serbian), Temza, Notre Dame and Dresden cathedral guards, Visigoths, general Satish Nambiar, Aryans in Mahabharata, 400 new Russian tanks in India, taqiyya as the top ethical liberal norm, Constantine proclaimed Christianity in Nis, no trauma when Aryans coming with music, Babu’s Pak restaurant in New York, Tribali tribe, ancient ritual songs from SA homeland, Kalash, etc, etc.

    We covered a lot of territory with a pace which everyone could not follow. It seems that Sereno for example was a bit anxious because of spoiling his party with Tribals-tribe or maybe simply his bladder pushed him to take an unplanned (wiki)leak. Btw, did you miss Assange accidentally or intentionally because of the fear of repercussions? Well, some curious people rightly found some historical episodes fascinating. That is the exact word, I sometime surprise myself when I see some generally known things from non-VW perspective. I use all magic from my toolbox that “…almost magically deep into the 21st century, we got a window into the world of Indo-European customs and practices…” [ref: RKh]. Millions of SA people, I believe, will be proud to be part and direct descendants of this fascination.

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  2. There are so many new topics to be uncovered or presented without VW distortion. Because of space, the most of them are just eyes-opening and an incentive to start own research. Right now, we have few guys (MM, C, MMK) who got probationary assignments to research the previous name of the river Ind (or Hyderabad or Amu Darya) and the connection of India’s ‘cow belt’ with Roman’s bacchanalias. Not all facts are falsified or distorted by VW (e.g. Olof is completely taken from wiki). Sometimes, they are only partially presented but even half-brainers can make conclusion. For doubting Thomas-es, just to illustrate with your favorite topic we were chatting before – Philistines.

    Wiki says (and all agree) that Philistines were Pelasgians who came from Aegean (btw. on the Tribals map I posted you can see that the old name for Aegean Sea was Thracian Sea). The stories about David&Goliath or Samson&Delilah say (and all agree) that Goliath and Delilah were Philistines. All agree that Greeks came to the land where Pelasgians lived (and took the most of their language). A different article lists many of Serbian speaking tribes – Tribals, Moesinas, Thracians, Dacians, Illyrians…and Pelasgians. Well, here even Muyo&Haso would conclude that Goliath was a Serb. Half-brainers neither believe in a synthetic statement, nor can research by themselves, you must chew up everything for them. For the first 2-3 readers-doubters I can chew the topics they nominate.
    Stay cool and take a glass of Coke, Xerxie.

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  3. https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/companies/chinas-vc-investments-in-indian-start-ups-hit-56-billion-in-2018/article26612364.ece

    Indian tech industry is attracting plenty of money from China. There are obvious concerns (snooping! fake news!) but it is also a good thing IMO.

    Also, a number of Chinese folks are coming to Bangalore and Pune to set up companies here. Signs of a growing economy. In turn, there are tons of Indians who are setting up companies in Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia. A lot of SE Asian companies are opening up offices in Bangalore, Hyderabad, Vizag etc.

    Indian tech industry is getting closer and closer knit to East and South East Asia.

    All this makes me feel that if tech is going to be the dominant industry of the 21st century, India’s future lies towards its east.

    Our neighbours to the west are missing out on the party, I believe. Should join in.

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    1. Promising, but we need to keep things in perspective. High-end services are great to have, but they will not and cannot solve India’s joblessness issues, let alone become a source of employment for the masses. We need to get our act together on manufacturing (a multifactorial problem), as we are getting passed up by Vietnam and Bangladesh…and perhaps later by Africa.

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      1. After WW2, the global supply chain ended up with East Asia becoming a manufacturing hub, whereas the US became the leading innovator and services hub. Japan was the leader, Taiwan and Korea were linked to Japan (due to the legacy of Japan’s colonial empire) and China was linked to Taiwan (via diaspora).

        India doesnt really have a lot of organic links with East Asia. Breaking into that network will require some truly out of the box thinking. Meanwhile, we do have organic links with the US (due to our Anglo colonial past) and have milked that to our advantage.

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        1. Vikram India does have ancient links to east Asia. However east Asians have always been more interested in partnership with India than visa versa. Sigh. 🙁

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          1. Yes, of course, India has deep historical links to East Asia, but these are different from contemporary economic networks.

            As an example, there are 14 Singapore Tokyo flights daily, and only 2 Delhi Tokyo ones.

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        2. Might take a generation but there’s decent back and forth migration happening between Indian and SE Asia (especially Singapore).

          “High-end services are great to have, but they will not and cannot solve India’s joblessness issues, let alone become a source of employment for the masses.”

          Agree with this.
          But I feel like India is not going to follow template and capital gain from software and services will be ploughed back into manufacturing rather than the other way round.
          Eg – tech companies investing in electric cars and bikes, spurring next gen manufacturing.

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  4. Former US president Jimmy Carter revealed part of his conversation with current head of state Donald Trump, who told him that he was worried about the growth of the Chinese economy that “overtakes America”. He especially emphasised on the occasion of China, addressing his listeners-baptists:

    “Do you know how many times China has been fighting since 1979 to this day? That year they were still fighting with Vietnam, and since then – not once! And all this time, we are constantly fighting. Do you know that China has built 29,000 kilometres of fast railways, and we spent three trillion dollars for wars and smaller military operations? That’s why China is ahead of us.”

    Carter points out three trillion dollars and the American Braun University claims that the US spent $5.9 trillion on the wars in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and operations in Pakistan and other countries. Carter is the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize. He warned several years ago that the United States is no longer a democratic country because they “turned into a typical oligarchy”.

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    1. Good to see you back. Keep up the good work. The green branch Q3e is confusing to a non specialist. Can it be used to prove the OSAT (OIT) or is it just wishful thinking?

      “Therefore, we now have a very plausible scenario whereby a favourable climate scenario after the LGM lasting all the way upto the mid-Holocene, was created under the influence of the intensified ISM starting from Northwestern South Asia and extending into Afghanistan, Central Asia & Eastern Iran. Such a climatic condition would have been most ideal for the expansion of Iran_N/CHG related populations across this vast region, from their hypothesized origin in NW South Asia”

      Perfect.

      “The answer to this question can be of vital importance. It means, among other things that the geographical origins of ANE, Iran_N/CHG & AASI ancestries could be quite close to each other and that place is geographically close to South Asia if not within South Asia itself.”

      The above para is poignant. Can Iranians be considered “Europeans?” Eurocentrism simply will not allow for that. Waiting for the N. Rai paper to come out.

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      1. Although Ekbatan was the capital of the Media, the most beautiful city was Nisa (the same name as the city where the first Aryan expedition started and where Christianity is announced as official Roman religion), which was well known by its horses throughout the whole Asia. The name of the town of Nisa was changed to Raga (the name for old horse in Serbian), then Seleuk I gave this city the name of Europo, according to his birthplace city with the same name near the river Vardar, Macedonia. This is now modern Tehran. The younger brother of the first king of Macedonia, Perdike I Karanovic (Alexander the Great belongs to this dynasty) whose name was Europ, ruled about 700. p.n.e. in the middle part of the river Vardar (Povardarje). Its principality was called Europe. By this principality, Europe got its name. Previous name of Macedonia was Media.

        >>> MMK: Can Iranians be considered “Europeans?”

        Yes, they can and in this case can be called – Serbs. But first, should be answered when the term ‘Iranian’ and ‘Europe’ were coined (plus, the meaning of the previous).

        I would not comment because I haven’t received before any answer on my questions. For example – which language was spoken in ‘Europe’ in 2000BC (or 3000 or 4000)?

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    2. I’ve already said what I think of OIT conspiracies so I won’t harp on it.

      I’ll just note that the Caucasus component in South-Asians seems to post-date the Aryan intrusion, just from looking at the pattern you see among South-Asian admixtures.

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  5. Around 48 min mark Reich says something to the effect the oldest part of the Rig Veda have non Indo European names and he is an amateur and outsider etc. . No idea where he is getting that from. He really needs to duke it out with Talageri!

    https://youtu.be/PUsPCsAjsbs

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  6. I’ll just note that the Caucasus component in South-Asians seems to post-date the Aryan intrusion, just from looking at the pattern you see among South-Asian admixtures.

    say more.

    the way you date things is usually admixture models+LD decay. though the dates are very rough, they are often good at getting the sequence of admixture right. i think there is some gene-flow especially into baloch-inhabited areas, and perhaps something going on with jatts. but don’t know of anywhere else.

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    1. The Caucasus component doesn’t degrade like the Indian/Iranian components do among South-Asians with increasing Aryan admixture.

      There are also populations (some Gujaratis) who have the expected high Iranian component from being near the IVC, the expected modest Aryan component based on their locations/caste, but virtually no Caucasus component.

      I think it was likely brought to South-Asia via Punjab (where the component peaks), from later West-Asian intrusions. Possibly a group of Iranian new-comers who some hypothesize clashed with the Aryans during the Vedic period. Possibly the later Persian/Scythian/Greek invasions. Possibly the Muslim conquests. Likely some combination of all 3.

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          1. It’s true, it’s probably from continuous Iranian admixture from the Avestan period onwards. The original Aryans were not enriched with the caucasian component, so it must come from elsewhere. And the fact that it is ‘topped up’ in North West India suggests it postdates the Aryan invasion.

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  7. Just spent a few days in Bali, and halfway through a trip of Indonesia. Absolutely fascinating country and Bali has a superb, stunningly beautiful culture and landscape.

    Balinese Hinduism is fascinating and suffused to the brim with Sanskrit words and concepts. What I can’t find (with my layman’s eyes) is any Tamil linguistic references at all. Didn’t this part of the world have extensive contact with the Tamil empires of South India? The resident pundits have any ideas?

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    1. Bali first connection with India was with telegu( their Adam and Eve story has a telegu guy) , oriya ( they have a festival named after bali), and perhaps Bengali , and not necessarily tamil

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    2. Wait, the Chola and Pallava invasions do not go past Pallembang. Bali is 1000 miles away. The Indian influence in Bali is a bit different than Cambodian influences of 8th century. It is a version of earlier Javanese Sailendra kingdom, and does not owe its origin to any Tamil influence. In some sense, a model might be the continuing spread of the Javanese Hindu influence that started in 1st century AD, but stranded in a culdesac. However, the model fails because the Javanese kingdoms also had an overarching mahayana influence.

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      1. Thanks!
        Yup, asked around and found that most Balinese are descended from Javanese who fled Muslim persecution, hence the ethnic and linguistic similarities between Java and Bali. Indian tourists, especially those with an interest in Hinduism are seen favourably here and I was able to get into some shrines that are normally off limits. Found some interesting oddities such as most big temples are not used for daily active worship and there are no restrictions against footwear, no bells, etc.

        Interestingly, the island next door to Bali (Lombok) is as different as can be – much less tapped by tourism but also very Islamic with mosques, madrassahs and headscarves everywhere. It’s being marketed as the next Bali, especially to Islamic tourists.
        Currently in East Nusa Tenggera (Komodo), and this place is Christian majority. In all three regions, outward displays of religiousity seems to be the norm.
        An amazingly diverse country, but Saudi-funded Salafism like in Aceh will be the biggest stumbling block to developing it’s true potential, me thinks.

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  8. Max Müller had interesting views on how Hindus/Indians supposedly became known for being liars and dishonest people:

    “The other epic poem too, the Mahabharata, is full of episodes showing a profound regard for truth. (…) Were I to quote from all the law-books, and from still later works, everywhere you would hear the same key-note of truthfulness vibrating through them all. (…) I say once more that I do not wish to represent the people of India as two hundred and fifty-three millions of angels, but I do wish it to be understood and to be accepted as a fact, that the damaging charge of untruthfulness brought against that people is utterly unfounded with regard to ancient times. It is not only not true, but the very opposite of the truth. As to modern times, and I date them from about 1000 after Christ (AD), I can only say that, after reading the accounts of the terrors and horrors of Mohammedan rule, my wonder is that so much of native virtue and truthfulness should have survived. You might as well expect a mouse to speak the truth before a cat, as a Hindu before a Mohammedan judge.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_M%C3%BCller#Late_career

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    1. Interesting, but did Hindus ever really go before Mohammedan judges ? From what I understand, when it comes to Hindus most legal matters were still decided by panchayats and Brahmins.

      Samira Sheikh pointed out that one reason why Aurangzeb ran afoul of so many of the Mughal Empire’s previous allies were his attempts to enforce a universal, Sharia based legal code. Ironically, the first casualties of this project were the Bohra Muslims of Gujarat.

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    2. Many years back read Max Muller’s ‘India what it can teach us’ I think a set of lectures for prospective ICS candidates about to set sail to India. In it he was profusely positive about the honesty and moral quality of Hindus

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        1. Regarding Muslim (Turkish) legal system, there is an old Serbian proverb:
          Kadiya (i.e. Turkish Judge) is accusing you, kadiya is judging you (i.e. he is both, prosecutor and judge). What could you otherwise expect from the movement, unsophisticated in every aspect.

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  9. @Sbarrkum, any thoughts on developing news of blasts in Sri Lanka? Who would do this to Christians on Easter in your part of the world?

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    1. One of my friends (Eric) : says I at St Michaels Church Easter Sunday mass this morning when I thought I heard unusually loud thunder. Little did I realize that they were the sounds of huge bombs going off.

      St. Michaels Church is about 1 km from Cinnamon Grand Hotel (one the top 5 star hotels in Colombo) . Many large buildings between the two locations.
      To hear a bomb blast that was louder than thunder means the bomb has to be huge.

      Coordinated triggering of multiple similar bombs all over the country points to an organization with large funding sources and the ability to smuggle in large quantities of explosives.

      The choice of targets also seem to imply an organization with some new agenda.

      Rule out LTTE/Tamil separatist based on history. No attack on churches and hotels, i.e. Places dear to westerners.

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  10. JULIAN ASSANGE: Serbia is country where future happens first

    Serbia is presented in the wrong way in the world and it is in some sort of gap which may be her position of power, said Julian Assange, founder of WikiLeaks. Assange said that, nowadays, people are really living in the time between the two epochs, and Serbia is a country “in between”.

    “Like many other similar countries, Serbia is in the place of one of the most important leaders. It is the place where the future comes first, with all its horrors and beauties. Like all pioneers, Serbia is a country that is usually misrepresented. This is done by the ones who decide, who create the world’s politics, people from the region, and, unfortunately, sometimes people from Serbia act in that way. Sometimes, Serbia is presented in the wrong way because of misunderstanding. This can be seen from the material which is published by WikiLeaks,” said Assange.

    The materials released by WikiLeaks show that the situation in Serbia is consciously and sometimes quite cynically distorted, with the help of people who work outside, believes Assange.

    “Sometimes the world not only distorted the image of Serbia, but it attacked the country. As you all know, only 15 years ago, Serbian journalists were victims of airstrikes by NATO. This is the only time when NATO admitted that journalists were intentionally killed.

    Although he thinks that people in Serbia lost confidence in everything and everyone, in the East and in the West, the founder of WikiLeaks believes that Serbia is still a land of opportunity.

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    1. Today is 20 years since the NATO terrorist bombing of the Radio Television of Serbia building, when 16 journalists were killed. This is the first recorded case that a media company was declared a legitimate military goal. The Human Rights Watch International Human Rights Organization announced in 2000 that there was no excuse for bombing television.

      NATO leaders claimed that the attack was justified, and the Hague tribunal’s special commission, which also examined the RTS bombing case, did not suggest to the prosecution to initiate criminal proceedings.

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  11. Bloggingheads Diavlog on India-Pakistan and Indian politics. Nothing to learn from really, at least for the folks on this forum, but it gives a window into what Indian-Americans and Americans (at least on the left-liberal side of the spectrum) know and feel about the subcontinent.

    https://bloggingheads.tv/videos/56220

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    1. Is it the usual “hurr hurr Modi is the genocidaire and Muslims are being lynched en masse in the streets”? Cause if so, I’ll save myself the trouble of listening. If not, maybe worth a look.

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    2. Never mind I quit listening about 15 minutes in, it’s the usual derp, the kind of copypasta you get from WaPo…I don’t mind listening to a Lefty commentator, but they should at least get one with a knowledge base beyond surface-level bromides.

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    3. Numinous, would you like her on Brown Cast?

      Thought about a discussion between her and someone else. But I don’t think that would be fair. She doesn’t seem informed enough about India, Hindutva or Hinduism to make a discussion with her worth while. And not sharp enough either.

      If you know “intelligent” “informed” critics of India, Hindutva and Hinduism; Brown Cast would love to interview them.

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      1. Problem with discussions on “Hindutva,” or more loosely, “Right of Center Indian Thought” (not necessarily “Hindu Nationalism”) is that most of its opponents simply parrot NYT and WaPo talking points, you might as well just read the source if that’s what you’re into.

        The second problem is that, to put it bluntly, most bhakts operate on tard tier, so “Hindutva” would have to be steelmanned…there are smart right-of-center Indian people, but my experience is that most Lefties prefer to ignore them and focus on the (more numerous) tards.

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        1. The problem is not that, in most cases “Hindutva” is explained to the western audience by people who are opposed to it. It like asking Bengalis about capitalism.

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          1. Were you really surprised that AOC’s campaign manager just happened to be a Bengali 😛

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        2. Dont really understand, if you have to understand tamil nationalism or Sikh nationalism wouldn’t you talk to a tamil or a sikh. Why do hindu nationalism being explained by ethnicities who haven’t seen much/any of hindu nationalism anyway? (like the person in the video)

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        3. I’m a hindutva sceptic personally, but what do most leftists believe to be the unifying principle of the Indian republic? The alternatives to hindutva might be even more virulent and antithetical to their values, like an idea of india constructed on racial commonality. The high brow (relatively speaking) hindutva of your atheist rss types doesn’t ask much more than framing the nation as exclusively the inheritor of a classical sanskritic civilisation and taking that as a unifying principle. Its not faith-driven in any way I can discern, but seeks to democratise high sanskritic culture from the top down. An alternative cultural unity thesis would construe something supressed and primordial in Indic culture surviving (largely external to the high-church vedic religion) in the folk culture that is to invigorate all strata of society, from the bottom up. The perceived danger of the cultural hindutva of the former is that marxists/gramscians view it as fortification of upper-caste hegemony. The latter idealizes our adivasi kin, but is still a racialized interpretation.

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          1. The alternative to Hindutva is a territorial nationalism based on the idea that India is a state of all its citizens, no matter what their religion. Muslims and other minorities would have an equal stake in the national project without having to accept that they were originally Hindu.

            The problem with Hindutva (and with the Islamic Republic next door) is that such cultural nationalism privileges one set of people based on their religious beliefs while making another set of people second-class citizens. Everything in Pakistan is determined by a majoritarian understanding of Islam. For example, there are laws that punish people caught eating in public during Ramazan. Similarly, in India, Muslims are lynched for eating beef (or even if it is alleged that they have done so). Hindu dietary taboos (which don’t even apply to all Hindus) should not be imposed on minorities.

            Cultural nationalism doesn’t work particularly well in diverse countries. Rather, a territorial nationalism like that of the US is a better model. America accepts people from all parts of the world as long as they are willing to subscribe to the ideals of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. It does not identify as a White Christian country. States should attempt to be inclusive, rather than to belong to a specific social or religious group.

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          2. Well I think the record is fairly clear that Hinduism is the core of India, for better or worse…we’ve had 4 religious militiancies (Kashmir, Punjab, Nagalim, Mizoram) on our peripheries, but our Hindu core remains strong…it is not critical that every Indian be Hindu, but having solid Hindu majorities matters…

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          3. India is over 85% Hindu. Why are you being so paranoid about majorities?

            If “Hinduism is the core of India”, then you have no moral case to hold Kashmir. It is a Muslim-majority state and was one even in 1947. Let Kashmiris go their own way and the rest of India would be even more solidly Hindu.

            States should belong to all their citizens. Pity that some of you fail to understand that simple logic.

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          4. Hindu Nationalism in its most basic, conceptual sense is fine. More benign than Islamism in this regard, and I don’t have a major issue with most Islamist expressions in the Muslim world.

            In practice however its awful, worse than most Islamist expressions. This isn’t the fault of Hinduism, but the largely artificial Hindu identity created by the British.

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          5. Kabir, regarding territorial nationalism, I think that may be the core of the problem with India and the Kashmir conflict. Without a unifying culture, language or religion, you have a nationalism based on boundaries and the hard projection of state power. The empowered citizens of that such a country are pretty well convinced that their system is more just than others, and if you haven’t noticed, it pretty well typifies how indians patronize pakistanis in policy conversations. The argument is usually “India at its worst is more just than Pakistan at its best, because while we are an imperfect secular republic, you are a country conceived to discriminate against non-muslms”. This becomes a moral imperative not to cede territory to a state with less virtue. Territorial nationalists can be unbounded in their acquisitiveness, like the USA. The putative civic nationalism of western democracies is a pretence they can well afford. By and large they either have linguistic unity like France or geographic compactness like the Swiss, suggesting cultural proximity across language communities. Their heritage as coherent cultural units are never threatened, so they can say nice things.
            India has nothing approximating these, and even a civic nationalism in the indian context, because of its scale, inspires monumental righteousness. Every polity needs a self-justifying myth , and whichever one animates the secular pluralist version of india, will not be bounded in its ambition. The secularist and the hindutvaites are just as imperialistic as each other. The idea of an indian republic is inherently audacious.

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          6. Girmit,

            The “idea of India” is certainly better than the “idea of Pakistan”. Indians were justified in taking the moral high ground over Pakistanis. However, the past five years have shown that India is on the path to being just as majoritarian as Pakistan. Whatever the flaws of the Congress Party, they seemed to subscribe to a vision of India as a state of all its citizens. BJP makes no bones about the fact that only Hindus are first class citizens of the country. Their recent acceptance of a terrorism accused into their party and making her the candidate for Bhopal speaks volumes.

            Cultural or religious nationalism is not the best model for multiethnic and multireligious countries. Territorial nationalism is preferable because it makes the identity of individual citizens irrelevant.

            The problem with India’s conception of territorial nationalism is that the map is represented as a goddess. If Kashmir is Bharat Mata’s head, then obviously the territory cannot be given up since that would be equivalent to decapitating the goddess. Lines on the map become more important than the lives of the people of the land.

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  12. From Rathod’s blog

    http://t-o-i-h.blogspot.com/?m=1

    “This cumulative evidence clearly points in the direction of a very old, at least dating to 20-15 kya and possibly even older, presence of West Eurasian ancestry in South Asia which was of the Iran Neolithic / Caucasus Hunter Gatherer type but with greater affinity to the Ancestral North Eurasian (ANE) ancestry which is the oldest representative of the so-called ‘steppe’ ancestry.”

    Cool. FINALLY an easily understandable answer to what this “steppe ancestry” is .
    It just a genetic merry go round to prove migrations and make a pizza of South Asia for Tony Joseph and his ilk. In the mean time, the hunt for non “Indo European” names in the oldest books of the Rig Veda continues.

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    1. From Rathod’s blog

      http://t-o-i-h.blogspot.com/?m=1

      “This cumulative evidence clearly points in the direction of a very old, at least dating to 20-15 kya and possibly even older, presence of West Eurasian ancestry in South Asia which was of the Iran Neolithic / Caucasus Hunter Gatherer type but with greater affinity to the Ancestral North Eurasian (ANE) ancestry which is the oldest representative of the so-called ‘steppe’ ancestry.”

      Cool. FINALLY an easily understandable answer to what this “steppe ancestry” is .
      It just a genetic merry go round to prove migrations and make a pizza of South Asia for Tony Joseph and his ilk. In the mean time, the hunt for non “Indo European” names in the oldest books of the Rig Veda continues.

      “If this is correct, what it suggests is that there was a West Eurasian Iran Neolithic related ancestry at least in the Northern part of South Asia from around 20-15 kya which only admixed with AASI groups from more interior regions of South Asia more than 10,000 years later around 6 to 7 kya. The implication is that for more than 10,000 years an Iran Neolithic related ancestry group existed in South Asia without admixing with AASI during which period if that Iran Neolithic group migrated out of South Asia, it would not have carried an AASI admixture signal.”

      “But as we shall see, the Iran Neolithic population itself appears to have a more eastern origin.”

      This could be matched up with the Varsagira War between the Vedic and the Iranian peoples.

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      1. rathod’s post has a lot of interesting information. but in the details a lot doesn’t hold up IMO.

        but i’m tired of this topic until *the paper* comes out….

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      2. MMK, I hope you are also making progress in researching the previous name of the river IND. Due date for the first draft is almost there. I may be away for a while tendering for new I-Net provider, during my absence you can contact Anan who will provide you with his feedback for your final draft. Keep up the good work!

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  13. “MMK, I hope you are also making progress in researching the previous name of the river IND.”

    It is Sindhu. Are there any other names? and PIE reconstructed h1sh2inh3du does not count.

    ” Keep up the good work!”

    Not doing much! Anyways,

    In the following clip Hina Rabbani a Pakistani MP claims that Prime Minister Khan’s widely reported remarks about Germany and Japan being neighbors were not merely a gaffe.

    Take a listen from the 25 second mark

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4dq2kTFMw0

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  14. Milan Todorovic wrote

    “Keep up the good work!”

    Decided to take your compliment seriously and actually do some work on toponymy of England where a thunderous Anglo Saxon invasion is supposed to have wiped out the Celtic population and replace it with Germanic speaking peoples around a 1000 years ago. In other words an AIT of the British aisles but this time the victims were themselves Indo European speaking already.

    http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20160309-why-does-britain-have-such-bizarre-place-names

    “Even today, many hills and rivers have kept their Celtic names – especially in the north and west. The Wrekin takes its name from Celtic. So do about two-thirds of England’s rivers: Avon, Derwent, Severn, Tees, Trent, Tyne – and Itchen, which later lent its name to the town Bishop’s Itchington. (Some of these names may even have come from the people who were here before the Celts). Often the names just meant ‘river’ or ‘water’, and sometimes no one knows what they originally meant; in the Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names, AD Mills calls Severn “an ancient pre-English river name of doubtful etymology”. The River Tame, which we cross on our trip to Ashby-de-la-Zouch, comes from the Celtic for ‘dark one’ or ‘river’ – as does the River Thames.”

    http://canalrivertrustwaterfront.org.uk/culture/the-etymology-of-river-names/

    “River attributes
    Many other names describe a specific attribute of the river – the Tamar, Teme, Thame and Thames all coming from the Celtic word for ‘dark water’. The Wye dividing England and South Wales and Wey, in either Surrey or Dorset, originate in the Celtic word ‘weg,’ meaning ‘flowing water’. The Lugg in Powys and Herefordshire is the ‘bright one’. The River Trent derives from the Celtic word for ‘trespasser’, due to the fact that it flooded regularly.”

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  15. Communism is nothing but a metamorphosis of Abrahimism that unfortunately took over much of East Asia and some South Asia (Lands of Dharma). Albeit this cancer has been in under control from a decade or so.

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  16. UN puts Pakistani armed group chief Masood Azhar on ‘terror’ list

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/05/puts-pakistani-armed-group-chief-masood-azhar-terror-list-190501152953396.html

    “The UN sanctions committee on the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or ISIS) and al-Qaeda announced in a press release the designation of Azhar – the chief of Jaish-e-Muhammad (JeM) – over his ties to al-Qaeda.

    JeM claimed responsibility for the February 14 attack in the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir that killed 40 Indian troops and stoked tensions between India and Pakistan”

    Modi’s take on this for those able to follow Hindi

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ySSIbNrKKA

    at 3:11 min mark translated:

    “This (Azhar designation) is only the beginning, wait to see what happens next.”

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  17. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/05/puts-pakistani-armed-group-chief-masood-azhar-terror-list-190501152953396.html

    UN puts Pakistani armed group chief Masood Azhar on ‘terror’ list

    “The UN sanctions committee on the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or ISIS) and al-Qaeda announced in a press release the designation of Azhar – the chief of Jaish-e-Muhammad (JeM) – over his ties to al-Qaeda.

    JeM claimed responsibility for the February 14 attack in the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir that killed 40 Indian troops and stoked tensions between India and Pakistan.”

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    1. Ok MMK, Magi has forgotten to post Open Thread but I hope you are not wasting your time and still researching your topic.
      Let me give you a small incentive re your favourite river Amu Darya.

      Its previous name was – Ariana.

      You can find out the previous name of the river Ind.
      Keep doing good work!

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  18. Milan Todorovic

    “Let me give you a small incentive re your favourite river Amu Darya.

    Its previous name was – Ariana.”

    I don’t have any favorite rivers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amu_Darya

    “Latin and Ὦξος (Ôxos) in Greek — a clear derivative of Vakhsh, the name of the largest tributary of the river.[citation needed] In Vedic Sanskrit, the river is also referred to as Vakṣu (वक्षु).”

    No mention of “Ariana” anywhere.

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    1. MMK >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amu_Darya
      >“Latin …Greek…”
      >”No mention of “Ariana” anywhere.”
      >”For those interested in genetics, Shrikant Talageri is coming out with a new book on the genetic angle of the Indo-European question”
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      One correction – “No mention of “Ariana” in Wiki.”

      “Greeks…” – they still don’t believe, i.e. do not confess that Aryans ever existed because it would require a massive rewriting of their history and they consider themselves the oldest in the world…

      “Latin…” – they did not know that Chinese existed. The distance between them and Aryans is longer than the distance between you and Jesus Christ.

      Talageri is a mathematician who writes about ancient languages and now he is giving a shot at genetics…???? If he is also good at geography he may fix Razib’s ASS (anti-spam software) which is throwing my comments into Magi’s spam bin!

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  19. For those interested in genetics, Shrikant Talageri is coming out with a new book on the genetic angle of the Indo European question, prefaced by Koenraad Elst as mentioned in the following Tweet.

    https://twitter.com/koenraad_elst?lang=en

    “But yes, I (Elst) owe you this review. Meanwhile I have written a preface to Shrikant Talageri book-length review of the genetic evidence occasioned by Joseph’s book. It comes out in a few weeks through Voice of India publishers, Delhi.”

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  20. Man arrested at Charlotte airport for lying about contacts with terrorist organizations

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/02/us/charlotte-man-arrested-supporting-terrorist/index.html

    “Waqar ul-Hassan, 35, was returning from Pakistan and had gotten off a flight at the Charlotte Douglas International Airport Tuesday night when he was arrested on two counts of making false statements in 2015 interviews involving terrorism, according to an FBI criminal complaint.”

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  21. “Territorial nationalists can be unbounded in their acquisitiveness, like the USA.”

    The most bloody, devastating conflicts of the modern era have been between ethnic nationalities.

    If Indian nationalism was ‘territorial’, we would not have agreed to swap land with Bangladesh to free up enclaves (a net loss in area for India). Even in Kashmir, it is India which is ready to accept the LoC as the border. Raw empiricism is enough to prove Indias point in Kashmir, other Muslim majority areas under the control/influence of the Pakistan army have seen mass deaths (3 million in Bangladesh and 2.5 millions in Afghanistan).

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  22. “If Indian nationalism was ‘territorial’, we would not have agreed to swap land with Bangladesh”

    India’s thirst for its neighbor’s territory is outweighed by its xenophobia. It wants the land, not the Muslims on it. Right wing Indian officials still boast that Pakistan and Bangladesh will one day be reclaimed as rightful parts of India.

    “India is ready to accept the LoC as its border in Kashmir”

    In the same way a thief that breaks into your home is quite willing to settle for half your house.

    “Pakistan’s control/influence in Afghanistan led to death”

    Pakistan has virtually no control or influence in Afghanistan but its cute that they’ve managed to convince you they do.

    “Pak killed 3 million in Bangladesh”

    300,000 is the most widely accepted figure. Adding up the Jammu massacres (80,000), Hyderabad invasion (100,000), and Kashmir occupation (80,000) gives us a figure of 260,000 killed by India in similarly inexcusable fashion, so not very different.

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  23. “In the same way a thief that breaks into your home is quite willing to settle for half your house.”

    If you consider the Instrument of Accession, there’s definitely some thieving going around but it’s not India which is doing it in this particular case 🙂

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  24. “If you consider the Instrument of Accession”

    I don’t and neither does India, otherwise it wouldn’t have invaded Junagadh and Hyderabad for not acceding.

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  25. If you consider Hyderabad and Junagadh as legitimate parts of India, then the parts of Kashmir that Pakistan was successfully able to invade, would be the only parts due it.
    That thieving analogy doesn’t make much sense unless Pakistanis have that same thirst for neighbour’s territory that you accuse the Indians of having and that is the PoV you purport to speak from.

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    1. I consider Hyderabad and Junagadh legitimate parts of India because most of their populations wanted to join India; it would have been a crime for their illegitimate Muslim rulers to force them into Pakistan against their will.

      Which is also the reason Kashmir is not a legitimate part of India (should be independent or part of Pakistan, whichever the Kashmiris prefer). They were forced into India via their illegitimate Hindu ruler and the guns of the Indian military.

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      1. Why does it matter; even if Pakistan is in the “right” over Kashmir it’s played its cards spectacularly wrong.

        I would sketch out an Indus Valley Cultural zone that stretches from Sirhind in East Punjab to Kabul and included Srinagar et al. But it doesn’t necessarily have to be politically unified.

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  26. That could be because the people of the “Indus Valley Cultural zone” never wanted a country of their own but had one thrust upon them.

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