Although to be fair, the study further backs the work of other scholars with soil moisture simulations based on weather data. The journalist Mukerjee referred to in the article is the author of Churchill’s Secret War, a painful but essential read.
In that often quoted BBC survey of the greatest Britons of all time, I find it rather telling that Churchill is #1, and Cromwell (the butcher of Ireland) is # 10. All cultures have a distorted and stylized view of their own history, but Britain really takes the cake. Brexit is karma for colonialism.
Britain was made and maintained by armed might and they are open about it. If you goto Anglican Churches , many military men who have died in the cause of King and Empire i.e. colonialism in distant malaria infested lands or fighting barbarous people like Afghans or Kenyans or Indians are buried with full military and religious honours. Britain has taken to the heart you can’t have nation without a matching army fit for purpose. It understands power politics thoroughly.
If it is karma, they are enjoying it thoroughly.
… and every self respecting Indian without a slave mentality.
Scorpion Eater
5 years ago
O Shahenshah of Iran and Turan, can we have an article on this magnificent new religion Bahai’ism. Would love to know more about this religion.
Santosh
5 years ago
By the way, Xerxes of the East ji, wonderful job done with your (independent) coinage (of the likely already existing word (online perhaps)) hindItva! Actually the native Hindi -AI suffix to derive nominals out of adjectives as in acchAI, lambAI, etc. is exceedingly beautiful but it seems it does not fit with the stem hindI- (used as adjective/noun here? Edit: it seems Sanskrit requires an adjective as the stem to suffix -tva? And thus the stem hindI- here is adjective?) very well here (does some kind of a sandhi happen at the I+A boundary in Hindi or hiatus takes place instead?). The word hindItva is also an exact parallel to the Telugu word telugudanaM which literally means ‘Telugu self’, i.e. ‘Telugu-ness’.
Milan Todorovic
5 years ago
RE: about Germans and their link with SA (excerpt from a 19c.AC document)
Germans are not people of the so-called Indo-European or the Sanskrit races: they are more remote groups of so-called mid-Persian; they were the last people who moved to Europe before the Huns invasions and oushed by mongolian-turkish hordes; they are black people, the truth, now (i.e 19c.BC) Indo-European, but they are not clean white, as are Serbs; they were assimilating Serbian tribes to became white themselves while their original type was: small, low, squeaky, stocky, rounded with wide face, thick neck, and so on. They changed in the most of Germany to be more like Serbs not as their Asian-Persian and even Turkish ancestors.
Their Asian clothes and Norman sagas themselves testify that they are from Iran, the Turkish-Asan tribe. And all this is stated by Baron August Fon Hasthauzen himself – in his work: Caucasian Area (Sp 1857 year II tom pages from 180 onwards) – stating this:
“In the general character of the people of Ossetia – and if their language is now not pure German – shows kinship with Germans. Slow talk of the Ossetins, which is completely against all the other Caucasian peoples; a tone that speaks sounds – not just words – it all has something of the German in itself; also: if a man from a distance listens – he hear the peasants from the lower Saxony who speak among themselves.”
Germans are not people of the so-called Indo-European or the Sanskrit races: they are more remote groups of so-called mid-Persian; they were the last people who moved to Europe before the Huns invasions and oushed by mongolian-turkish hordes; they are black people, the truth, now (i.e 19c.BC) Indo-European, but they are not clean white, as are Serbs; they were assimilating Serbian tribes to became white themselves while their original type was: small, low, squeaky, stocky, rounded with wide face, thick neck, and so on. They changed in the most of Germany to be more like Serbs not as their Asian-Persian and even Turkish ancestors.
Priceless! I wish you had been around to tell Hitler all of this.
I understand your surprise. Many other will be surprised, too. There is much more, I may publish if it become appropriate especially about the falsified first millennium AC. However, even Hitler knew and wrote in his book that Germans are 70% of Serbian origin. He took Serbian swastika from Vinca, 5000 years BC, as his symbol. Prussians, for e.g., were converted Serbs who spoke Serbian until 200 years ago. I wrote before about Bismark, Leibniz, empress Katarina II and their Serbian roots.
leopard
5 years ago
What do you guys think about the forced conversion of Hindu girls in Pakistan?
Don’t put words in my mouth. I would never justify forced conversions of Hindus in Pakistan because Muslims are treated badly in India. Forced conversions and child marriages are completely unacceptable. Pakistan has laws regarding these issues but they are unfortunately very difficult to implement. The court has taken notice of the recent cases as has the prime minister.
Pakistan has to clean up its act regarding the treatment of minorities. However, this in no way justifies India’s ill treatment of Muslims. This hostage theory is disgusting.
Pakistan has laws regarding these issues but they are unfortunately very difficult to implement.
That’s often the case in India too. Local prejudices hold a lot of sway. Your impression of bad things having started to happen to Muslims since the BJP (or Modi) got power is somewhat mistaken; unfortunately, riots and lynching (even over “dietary choices”, as you refer to them) have been happening since ’47. Just like forced conversions of Hindus in Pakistan.
What people are pointing out is that India is a much bigger country, and the scale of malfeasance in Pakistan has always been much higher than in India (modulo law and order dysfunction.) India has as many Muslims as Pakistan does. Though many of them are in rather unfortunate conditions, there are also many in positions of power and influence (in business, in the entertainment industry.) In Pakistan, there are hardly any Hindus left, let alone Hindus with wealth or influence.
Many Indians have pointed out that things have gotten much worse for Muslims and other minorities over the past five years. You just have to keep up with The Wire and Scroll to know that. The people writing these articles are your countrymen not Pakistanis.
India is a constitutionally secular state while Pakistan is an Islamic republic. Therefore, India’s treatment of minorities must be held to a higher standard. If you aspire to be the mirror image of Pakistan, that’s your choice but frankly its a pathetic standard.
Many Indians have pointed out that things have gotten much worse for Muslims and other minorities over the past five years.
With due respect to you and the people you read, I don’t think this is accurate. Lot of commentary is politically-guided (I’m not attributing malice to anyone, just that people tend to propagate narratives they want to believe.)
It’s like in the US where a narrative has grown that things are getting worse and worse for people of color, women, gay people, etc., when the data clearly shows that things have never been better for formerly oppressed groups (of course things could improve, but that doesn’t mean we are in a dystopia now.)
In one way, things may have gotten worse, but I can’t be sure even about that. Neighborhood segregation might be growing; you may have read about people with Muslim names being rejected when it comes to renting an apartment. And I can anecdotally attest that this is true. But I recall my hometown when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. It also was segregated; Muslims had their separate neighborhoods (every other community was mixed though); this might have been an artifact of Partition.
In almost every other way, Muslims are doing as well as Hindus, after controlling for various socio-economic factors. I have close Muslim friends from college; there’s nothing stopping anyone from going to an IIT or an IIM. Muslims regularly get selected for the Indian cricket team. Etc. Anecdotally, I’ve heard Muslims may have larger families (in case you wondered, I was told this by a Muslim friend who observed this in his extended family from a rural area); that could explain lower per-capital incomes for Muslims vis-a-vis Hindus (if the data indeed suggests that.)
Last thing: a couple of years ago, when I went to renew my passport (in Bangalore), I overheard more than one case of applicants wanting a new passport because they had changed their name. In each case, the name change was Hindu to Muslim. Make of that what you will.
Here is an excerpt from an article published today. It is extremely disingenuous to take the line that Muslims are not doing worse under the current regime.
“News of lynchings and mobs running amok keeps filtering in, and parents, their friends, and extended families constantly advise young Muslims to be extra cautious and vigilant. What to cook, what to eat, and who to share it with form the subject matter of most phone calls with parents. But according to 32- year-old Faraz, what has really changed in the last five years is the language.
Faraz came to Delhi from Bijnor, in Uttar Pradesh, as a student, and then went on to find a job. Even as a young executive, he had been refused an apartment, but then the rejection had been couched in euphemisms. Today, his broker tells him baldly that the landlord will not rent to a Muslim. Bigotry is no longer a guilty secret to be shared with close friends in drawing rooms; it is now a badge of honour that is proudly displayed in public.
Thankfully, multinational companies still have fairly strict rules about hate speech and Faraz has recently threatened to report one of his colleagues to the human resource manager for calling him a Pakistani. Despite the strict rules and the evidence available in CCTV recordings, some of his Muslim colleagues prefer to ignore Islamophobic comments, an attitude that disgusts Faraz. He feels that it is this that emboldens bigots and allows them to enjoy impunity.” https://scroll.in/article/917412/how-middle-class-muslim-millennials-navigate-through-narendra-modis-india
Kabir, even the Indian diaspora (which is very progressive vis-a-vis caste) splits starkly on religious lines. Perhaps we should accept that Hindus and Muslims are grossly immiscible?
Exceptions do exist, I myself have friends across the religion line, and know liberal Muslims who have made the same. But I also have Muslim co-residents who are unabashed about preferring to hang around Muslims, and Hindu friends who voice equivalent views.
Kabir, “Pakistan is an Islamic republic. Therefore, India’s treatment of minorities must be held to a higher standard”- It would be funny seeing how this moron admit openly time and time again that Islam is a barbaric and inferior system but then shout also again and again that nobody else can say that because it is Islamophobic! But it is not funny because this mentality is held by bulk of the so-called ‘liberal’ muslims. Too afraid to burn in hell for eternity but also want the cool label of ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’. How long they can go on carrying extreme schizophrenia before breaking one way or another is a interesting subject of study.
It is not about Islam in particular. Any religiously-defined state (whether Muslim, Jewish or Hindu) is inherently discriminatory towards those of its citizens who are not of the majority faith. Secular states in contrast are supposed to treat all their citizens equally. Pakistan could have chosen to be a muslim-majority secular state but it did not go that route.
I have always been clear that I prefer secular states to religiously-based ones.
I don’t accept that Hindus and Muslims are incapable of living together. If they treat each other as equal citizens of the state, there is no problem.
Preferring to socialize within one’s own community is a different thing and is not inherently problematic.
Kabir, didn’t your grandma teach you that Islam is the perfect and complete way of life from private to public everything? Are you saying that secularism is better than Islam in some ways? How can any other ideology treat minorities better than Islam, which is perfect and complete and most good in all ways?
Shafiq,
I know you are trying to bait me but I will put my views on the record one last time. I believe that religion should remain in the private sphere and that the State should treat all citizens equally. This is the only way that multicultural societies can function. Any nation which has a State religion is inherently going to be discriminatory towards those citizens who don’t share the majority faith. Liberal Pakistanis like me used to look at India’s secularism as an example for our region. However, it seems that the current regime in India wants the country to become the mirror image of Pakistan. The Hindu minority is suffering in Pakistan (which is unacceptable) and now the Muslim minority is suffering in India (which should also be unacceptable).
People should be free to practice their religion however they want in their private lives as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. There is no need to call anyone’s religion “barbaric” or “inferior”. Such language only reflects one’s own bigotry.
Kabir, you moronic weasel, as usual you do not answer anything, just fucking obfuscate like a mod-Muslim. “I believe that religion should remain in the private sphere and that the State should treat all citizens equally. ” – is that the way of Islam? I am asking you straight. Answer staright if ypu have the moral courage in you. Is Islam perfect and complete? Is Islam perfect and complete for private and public life? Is Islam better for minorities than secularism or any other ideology? Is Islam a private religion? Was Islam a private religion anytime since the prophet to today?
Fuckers like you do not dare to answr any of these questions straight and take responsibility. The worst killers of ISIS have thousandfold more moral courage than worms like you. They stright express their beliefs and defend them. Worms like you never answer anything straight and just cower and say don’t hurt feelings and laber people bigot. Well morons like you cannot get the sympathy of being intellectually and emotionally challenged anymore. You either answer straight or take all the disrespect that comes at you.
\ “I believe that religion should remain in the private sphere and that the State should treat all citizens equally. ”\
Statements like this are welcome from Pakistanis . OTOH, people with such political ideas, if strongly and really felt, better work actively to implement such governance in their country first . Charity , like much else, especially secularism, begins at home.
This means
There should not be a state religion
All social and political decisions are religion-blind
People are free to change their religion or cast it out completely in public .
I could not have been any clearer about what I believe.
Your use of foul language towards me simply reflects on you. I’m not interested in further discussion with someone who is so rude.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan reiterated that the Hagia Sophia Museum in Istanbul will once again be turned into a mosque. “Hagia Sophia will no longer be called a museum. Its status will change. We will call it the mosque, “Erdogan said.
Taqiya – a law like that means lying and deceit. It means that a Muslim can put his hand on the Quran and swear to tell the truth, knowing that he is lying and knowing that he will be forgiven because he lies in the interest of Islam.
Lizard Catcher
5 years ago
Just watched Manikarnika on Amazon Prime. The thing that stands out is its overtly Hindu theme. Muslims in the movie are depicted honorably, but they are unmistakably auxiliaries to a Hindu enterprise, rather than a secular one. (Secular as in how brown people mean it, not as Yankees do). They fight under the banner of saffron standard, and even raise the slogans of Har Har Mahadev.
Had the movie been made in 60s or 70s, there would have been cheesy slogans of Hindu Muslim Bhai Bhai and long winding dialogues about shared Ganga Jamuna Tehzeeb. Sign of times I guess.
Again, just a dry observation. No sides taken.
Janamejaya
5 years ago
Can such a thing ever happen to anywhere else in the world?
From the article:
Kalpana Devi, Pakistan’s first Hindu woman assistant advocate general and former mukhiya of Hindu community, said she had witnessed many cases where such girls were handed down from man to man.
“I can’t forget 16 years old Sapna from Jaccobabad who was abducted and converted in the same manner,” Kalpana Devi recalled.
She was given to a married man, whose first wife filed case for divorce. After few months, the man divorced Sapna instead, and gave her off to his brother. Who in turn gave her to another man from whom her parents had to buy her for Rs 150,000. There was an attempt to kill her because they suspected she has converted back to Hinduism, which is liable to death in their view. Her parents then sent her to India. No one knows where she is now”.
People seem to think that (1) this invalidates the Deccan Trap theory of extinction, OR (2) the Traps and the gases they released were themselves a consequence of the asteroid impact.
Scorpion Eater
5 years ago
@Shafiq and Kabir
Just noted the exchange between the two of you. I must say, over the period of time I am frequenting this blog, I have grown to like Kabir. His is a classic liberal Pakistani Muslim view. He sincerely believes in things like Islam is a religion of peace, Muhammad was a gentle and compassionate character, Pakistanis are not Arabs but South Asians in blood, Indians and Pakistanis are same people divided by language and religion, and similar warm and cozy beliefs.
Unfortunately, i can’t say i agree with him. I am a former liberal mugged by reality. (OK, I am stealing someone’s quip here). I am a hardcore realist now. But for the sake of world peace let’s be gentle with Kabir. I like him around here. Unlike some other commentators, he does’t burst out in obscenities if you don’t like his view. We need more of his kind here.
Thank you. Much appreciated. I’ve never understood the need to resort to obscenities. It seems to me a sign of a weak argument.
“Islam is a religion of peace”– I find this to be an empty generality. There is no one “Islam”. Most Muslims are normal people just trying to live their lives and practice their faith as they see fit (similar to adherents of other religions). On the other hand, there are those who believe in political Islam and in imposing their faith on others. The same religion can be interpreted in different ways.
In my opinion, it is not religion as such but political ideologies like Islamism and Hindutva that are the problem in our region.
Dear Scorpion Eater, I do not know how long you have been in the blog but let me tell you a few things about Kabir when I first started commenting here. This Kabir was a typical crazy Pakistani Bully. Can you believe that this fucker wanted to ban people for mentioning genocide in 1971 in Bangladesh? This moron said he wouldn’t tolerate anyone saying anything bad and misleading about Pakistan. This utter twit kept mentioning about his so-called blue-blood, Ashrafi background and kept saying things like ‘lower class’ about working people. This chinless wonder of Lahore did daily tantrums threatening people if anybody said anything negative about Islam or Pakistan, never countering with logic, only threats. If this wannabe Fuhrer had any adminsitrative power, you would have seen purges in this blog like nowhere else.
The snivelling, whining creature that you see now is a product of our handiwork. Several of us confronted him directly and aggresively about his views and put him in his place. He can only whine about bigotry and how somebody is being mean. You probably haven’t see the loony Napoleon that he was before.
Kabir is a example of the Muslim psyche of Muslims in Muslim-majority lands. Utterly sure of themselves and their God-ordained superiority over everyone lese, they never encounter real opposition about their supremacist beliefs. The only way to shatter the hard but brittle bubbles of these bullies is to stike direct and. What is happening to Kabir is now happening to such Muslims all over the world. They are first time learning and knowing things that they never imagined before. And I firmly believe this is the fastest and surest way to bring about Islamic reformation and securalization.
LOL, no one has “put me in my place”. Your resort to foul language and personal attacks simply reflects the way you have been raised and/or your total lack of ability to argue your point of view coherently. Being obnoxious to people is hardly going to bring about “Islamic reform”.
There is no point in engaging further with such a nasty individual. Have a nice life.
It is hard to believe that someone who eats scorpions can be so naïve. So as ‘muslim intelectual’ the term ‘m-liberal’ is also an oxymoron. You have met dr Jekyll but you still haven’t seen mr Hyde (or opposite). Someone mentioned couple days ago the term schizophrenia. How can be a liberal someone who approves jihad, sharia, black kkk, kill infidels, 77 virgins, underage sex (legally-rape)…? M-liberals are shahids but without balls, who expect that at least couple, instead of 77, virgins will wait for them. How it is possible to be an alleged M-L? Let me refresh your memory…
Taqiya – a law like that means lying and deceit. It means that a Muslim can put his hand on the Quran and swear to tell the truth, knowing that he is lying and knowing that he will be forgiven because he lies in the interest of Islam.
Saurav
5 years ago
Yeah i think sometimes there is unnecessary name calling wrt to Kabir.
WSJ and US government do not care about muslims and human rights. They will do everything what they can against China (and Russia). Because, their actions against muslims in Middle East, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Palestinians, Afghanistan, Somalia and Asia will compensate with supporting ISIS in Bosnia and Kosovo by bombing the Serbs, Chechnya – to make problems to Russia and China, financing global ISIS and saying to gullible muslims – see, we are not against muslims, we care about muslim human rights.
Milan Todorovic
5 years ago
Muyo says to his friend: ‘Haso, have you heard about the new Hotel that’s been opened?’
– I’m not, which one?
– You eat, you drink, you have sex all night and when you wake up in the morning, they give you 100 euros.
– Really, who told you that?
– My wife Fata told me.
Mayuresh Madhav Kelkar
5 years ago
China’s Belt-and-Road Initiative Puts a Squeeze on Pakistan
April 3rd 2019
This interview of Wasim Akram and Shoaib Akhtar seems indistinguishable from Hinglish. Seems Hindi/Urdu are tending towards the same end of Anglicization.
But one of the smallest things that the Lord has the mercy to do, is to let me have the idea, though only sometimes, to put Vaishnavas on a higher pedestal than myself and mentally worship (though in an incomplete but very sincere manner) Vaishnavas (who are superior to the Lord Himself) and hoping one day that both the Lord and the Vaishnavas arrive as Rama and Vanaras to liberate the Ravana in me out of misery.
Today, from the department of why are we still debating this —
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/29/winston-churchill-policies-contributed-to-1943-bengal-famine-study
Although to be fair, the study further backs the work of other scholars with soil moisture simulations based on weather data. The journalist Mukerjee referred to in the article is the author of Churchill’s Secret War, a painful but essential read.
the Cult of Churchill is one of the most pernicious around..
In that often quoted BBC survey of the greatest Britons of all time, I find it rather telling that Churchill is #1, and Cromwell (the butcher of Ireland) is # 10. All cultures have a distorted and stylized view of their own history, but Britain really takes the cake. Brexit is karma for colonialism.
exact
Britain was made and maintained by armed might and they are open about it. If you goto Anglican Churches , many military men who have died in the cause of King and Empire i.e. colonialism in distant malaria infested lands or fighting barbarous people like Afghans or Kenyans or Indians are buried with full military and religious honours. Britain has taken to the heart you can’t have nation without a matching army fit for purpose. It understands power politics thoroughly.
If it is karma, they are enjoying it thoroughly.
The only folks i feel still salty about Churchill are the Bengalis and perhaps that good looking mallu politician
@Saurav
… and every self respecting Indian without a slave mentality.
O Shahenshah of Iran and Turan, can we have an article on this magnificent new religion Bahai’ism. Would love to know more about this religion.
By the way, Xerxes of the East ji, wonderful job done with your (independent) coinage (of the likely already existing word (online perhaps)) hindItva! Actually the native Hindi -AI suffix to derive nominals out of adjectives as in acchAI, lambAI, etc. is exceedingly beautiful but it seems it does not fit with the stem hindI- (used as adjective/noun here? Edit: it seems Sanskrit requires an adjective as the stem to suffix -tva? And thus the stem hindI- here is adjective?) very well here (does some kind of a sandhi happen at the I+A boundary in Hindi or hiatus takes place instead?). The word hindItva is also an exact parallel to the Telugu word telugudanaM which literally means ‘Telugu self’, i.e. ‘Telugu-ness’.
RE: about Germans and their link with SA (excerpt from a 19c.AC document)
Germans are not people of the so-called Indo-European or the Sanskrit races: they are more remote groups of so-called mid-Persian; they were the last people who moved to Europe before the Huns invasions and oushed by mongolian-turkish hordes; they are black people, the truth, now (i.e 19c.BC) Indo-European, but they are not clean white, as are Serbs; they were assimilating Serbian tribes to became white themselves while their original type was: small, low, squeaky, stocky, rounded with wide face, thick neck, and so on. They changed in the most of Germany to be more like Serbs not as their Asian-Persian and even Turkish ancestors.
Their Asian clothes and Norman sagas themselves testify that they are from Iran, the Turkish-Asan tribe. And all this is stated by Baron August Fon Hasthauzen himself – in his work: Caucasian Area (Sp 1857 year II tom pages from 180 onwards) – stating this:
“In the general character of the people of Ossetia – and if their language is now not pure German – shows kinship with Germans. Slow talk of the Ossetins, which is completely against all the other Caucasian peoples; a tone that speaks sounds – not just words – it all has something of the German in itself; also: if a man from a distance listens – he hear the peasants from the lower Saxony who speak among themselves.”
Germans are not people of the so-called Indo-European or the Sanskrit races: they are more remote groups of so-called mid-Persian; they were the last people who moved to Europe before the Huns invasions and oushed by mongolian-turkish hordes; they are black people, the truth, now (i.e 19c.BC) Indo-European, but they are not clean white, as are Serbs; they were assimilating Serbian tribes to became white themselves while their original type was: small, low, squeaky, stocky, rounded with wide face, thick neck, and so on. They changed in the most of Germany to be more like Serbs not as their Asian-Persian and even Turkish ancestors.
Priceless! I wish you had been around to tell Hitler all of this.
I understand your surprise. Many other will be surprised, too. There is much more, I may publish if it become appropriate especially about the falsified first millennium AC. However, even Hitler knew and wrote in his book that Germans are 70% of Serbian origin. He took Serbian swastika from Vinca, 5000 years BC, as his symbol. Prussians, for e.g., were converted Serbs who spoke Serbian until 200 years ago. I wrote before about Bismark, Leibniz, empress Katarina II and their Serbian roots.
What do you guys think about the forced conversion of Hindu girls in Pakistan?
@leopard on the conversion of Hindu girls in Pak
Zack’s take:
This is par for the course for Islam as it’s a sick religion (death cult?) founded by a pedo. These kidnappers are only follow Muhammad’s example
Kabir Bhai’s take:
It’s very sad but there’s nothing we can do about it but India and Modi are failing to live up to their secular standards.
IndThing’s take:
These Hindu girls should be lucky they’re with Pakistani not Indian men.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I would never justify forced conversions of Hindus in Pakistan because Muslims are treated badly in India. Forced conversions and child marriages are completely unacceptable. Pakistan has laws regarding these issues but they are unfortunately very difficult to implement. The court has taken notice of the recent cases as has the prime minister.
Pakistan has to clean up its act regarding the treatment of minorities. However, this in no way justifies India’s ill treatment of Muslims. This hostage theory is disgusting.
Pakistan has laws regarding these issues but they are unfortunately very difficult to implement.
That’s often the case in India too. Local prejudices hold a lot of sway. Your impression of bad things having started to happen to Muslims since the BJP (or Modi) got power is somewhat mistaken; unfortunately, riots and lynching (even over “dietary choices”, as you refer to them) have been happening since ’47. Just like forced conversions of Hindus in Pakistan.
What people are pointing out is that India is a much bigger country, and the scale of malfeasance in Pakistan has always been much higher than in India (modulo law and order dysfunction.) India has as many Muslims as Pakistan does. Though many of them are in rather unfortunate conditions, there are also many in positions of power and influence (in business, in the entertainment industry.) In Pakistan, there are hardly any Hindus left, let alone Hindus with wealth or influence.
Many Indians have pointed out that things have gotten much worse for Muslims and other minorities over the past five years. You just have to keep up with The Wire and Scroll to know that. The people writing these articles are your countrymen not Pakistanis.
India is a constitutionally secular state while Pakistan is an Islamic republic. Therefore, India’s treatment of minorities must be held to a higher standard. If you aspire to be the mirror image of Pakistan, that’s your choice but frankly its a pathetic standard.
Kabir:
Many Indians have pointed out that things have gotten much worse for Muslims and other minorities over the past five years.
With due respect to you and the people you read, I don’t think this is accurate. Lot of commentary is politically-guided (I’m not attributing malice to anyone, just that people tend to propagate narratives they want to believe.)
It’s like in the US where a narrative has grown that things are getting worse and worse for people of color, women, gay people, etc., when the data clearly shows that things have never been better for formerly oppressed groups (of course things could improve, but that doesn’t mean we are in a dystopia now.)
In one way, things may have gotten worse, but I can’t be sure even about that. Neighborhood segregation might be growing; you may have read about people with Muslim names being rejected when it comes to renting an apartment. And I can anecdotally attest that this is true. But I recall my hometown when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. It also was segregated; Muslims had their separate neighborhoods (every other community was mixed though); this might have been an artifact of Partition.
In almost every other way, Muslims are doing as well as Hindus, after controlling for various socio-economic factors. I have close Muslim friends from college; there’s nothing stopping anyone from going to an IIT or an IIM. Muslims regularly get selected for the Indian cricket team. Etc. Anecdotally, I’ve heard Muslims may have larger families (in case you wondered, I was told this by a Muslim friend who observed this in his extended family from a rural area); that could explain lower per-capital incomes for Muslims vis-a-vis Hindus (if the data indeed suggests that.)
Last thing: a couple of years ago, when I went to renew my passport (in Bangalore), I overheard more than one case of applicants wanting a new passport because they had changed their name. In each case, the name change was Hindu to Muslim. Make of that what you will.
Here is an excerpt from an article published today. It is extremely disingenuous to take the line that Muslims are not doing worse under the current regime.
“News of lynchings and mobs running amok keeps filtering in, and parents, their friends, and extended families constantly advise young Muslims to be extra cautious and vigilant. What to cook, what to eat, and who to share it with form the subject matter of most phone calls with parents. But according to 32- year-old Faraz, what has really changed in the last five years is the language.
Faraz came to Delhi from Bijnor, in Uttar Pradesh, as a student, and then went on to find a job. Even as a young executive, he had been refused an apartment, but then the rejection had been couched in euphemisms. Today, his broker tells him baldly that the landlord will not rent to a Muslim. Bigotry is no longer a guilty secret to be shared with close friends in drawing rooms; it is now a badge of honour that is proudly displayed in public.
Thankfully, multinational companies still have fairly strict rules about hate speech and Faraz has recently threatened to report one of his colleagues to the human resource manager for calling him a Pakistani. Despite the strict rules and the evidence available in CCTV recordings, some of his Muslim colleagues prefer to ignore Islamophobic comments, an attitude that disgusts Faraz. He feels that it is this that emboldens bigots and allows them to enjoy impunity.”
https://scroll.in/article/917412/how-middle-class-muslim-millennials-navigate-through-narendra-modis-india
Kabir, even the Indian diaspora (which is very progressive vis-a-vis caste) splits starkly on religious lines. Perhaps we should accept that Hindus and Muslims are grossly immiscible?
Exceptions do exist, I myself have friends across the religion line, and know liberal Muslims who have made the same. But I also have Muslim co-residents who are unabashed about preferring to hang around Muslims, and Hindu friends who voice equivalent views.
Kabir, “Pakistan is an Islamic republic. Therefore, India’s treatment of minorities must be held to a higher standard”- It would be funny seeing how this moron admit openly time and time again that Islam is a barbaric and inferior system but then shout also again and again that nobody else can say that because it is Islamophobic! But it is not funny because this mentality is held by bulk of the so-called ‘liberal’ muslims. Too afraid to burn in hell for eternity but also want the cool label of ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’. How long they can go on carrying extreme schizophrenia before breaking one way or another is a interesting subject of study.
It is not about Islam in particular. Any religiously-defined state (whether Muslim, Jewish or Hindu) is inherently discriminatory towards those of its citizens who are not of the majority faith. Secular states in contrast are supposed to treat all their citizens equally. Pakistan could have chosen to be a muslim-majority secular state but it did not go that route.
I have always been clear that I prefer secular states to religiously-based ones.
H.M. Brough,
I don’t accept that Hindus and Muslims are incapable of living together. If they treat each other as equal citizens of the state, there is no problem.
Preferring to socialize within one’s own community is a different thing and is not inherently problematic.
Kabir, didn’t your grandma teach you that Islam is the perfect and complete way of life from private to public everything? Are you saying that secularism is better than Islam in some ways? How can any other ideology treat minorities better than Islam, which is perfect and complete and most good in all ways?
Shafiq,
I know you are trying to bait me but I will put my views on the record one last time. I believe that religion should remain in the private sphere and that the State should treat all citizens equally. This is the only way that multicultural societies can function. Any nation which has a State religion is inherently going to be discriminatory towards those citizens who don’t share the majority faith. Liberal Pakistanis like me used to look at India’s secularism as an example for our region. However, it seems that the current regime in India wants the country to become the mirror image of Pakistan. The Hindu minority is suffering in Pakistan (which is unacceptable) and now the Muslim minority is suffering in India (which should also be unacceptable).
People should be free to practice their religion however they want in their private lives as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. There is no need to call anyone’s religion “barbaric” or “inferior”. Such language only reflects one’s own bigotry.
Kabir, you moronic weasel, as usual you do not answer anything, just fucking obfuscate like a mod-Muslim. “I believe that religion should remain in the private sphere and that the State should treat all citizens equally. ” – is that the way of Islam? I am asking you straight. Answer staright if ypu have the moral courage in you. Is Islam perfect and complete? Is Islam perfect and complete for private and public life? Is Islam better for minorities than secularism or any other ideology? Is Islam a private religion? Was Islam a private religion anytime since the prophet to today?
Fuckers like you do not dare to answr any of these questions straight and take responsibility. The worst killers of ISIS have thousandfold more moral courage than worms like you. They stright express their beliefs and defend them. Worms like you never answer anything straight and just cower and say don’t hurt feelings and laber people bigot. Well morons like you cannot get the sympathy of being intellectually and emotionally challenged anymore. You either answer straight or take all the disrespect that comes at you.
\ “I believe that religion should remain in the private sphere and that the State should treat all citizens equally. ”\
Statements like this are welcome from Pakistanis . OTOH, people with such political ideas, if strongly and really felt, better work actively to implement such governance in their country first . Charity , like much else, especially secularism, begins at home.
This means
There should not be a state religion
All social and political decisions are religion-blind
People are free to change their religion or cast it out completely in public .
I could not have been any clearer about what I believe.
Your use of foul language towards me simply reflects on you. I’m not interested in further discussion with someone who is so rude.
Who’s dis dinngshit takin ma place???!!
The only girl dat looks good on me….. is hindoo!!
Jagger The Shagger
#MuttahidaLoveJihadCouncil
Jaggu kee jai!
Welcome back!
Dude which be better? Chistie or Qadiriyya?
Thank you.
just recorded a podcast with Christoph. will post tomorrow.
posted on the patron site https://www.patreon.com/razibkhan.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan reiterated that the Hagia Sophia Museum in Istanbul will once again be turned into a mosque. “Hagia Sophia will no longer be called a museum. Its status will change. We will call it the mosque, “Erdogan said.
Taqiya – a law like that means lying and deceit. It means that a Muslim can put his hand on the Quran and swear to tell the truth, knowing that he is lying and knowing that he will be forgiven because he lies in the interest of Islam.
Just watched Manikarnika on Amazon Prime. The thing that stands out is its overtly Hindu theme. Muslims in the movie are depicted honorably, but they are unmistakably auxiliaries to a Hindu enterprise, rather than a secular one. (Secular as in how brown people mean it, not as Yankees do). They fight under the banner of saffron standard, and even raise the slogans of Har Har Mahadev.
Had the movie been made in 60s or 70s, there would have been cheesy slogans of Hindu Muslim Bhai Bhai and long winding dialogues about shared Ganga Jamuna Tehzeeb. Sign of times I guess.
Again, just a dry observation. No sides taken.
Can such a thing ever happen to anywhere else in the world?
From the article:
Kalpana Devi, Pakistan’s first Hindu woman assistant advocate general and former mukhiya of Hindu community, said she had witnessed many cases where such girls were handed down from man to man.
“I can’t forget 16 years old Sapna from Jaccobabad who was abducted and converted in the same manner,” Kalpana Devi recalled.
She was given to a married man, whose first wife filed case for divorce. After few months, the man divorced Sapna instead, and gave her off to his brother. Who in turn gave her to another man from whom her parents had to buy her for Rs 150,000. There was an attempt to kill her because they suspected she has converted back to Hinduism, which is liable to death in their view. Her parents then sent her to India. No one knows where she is now”.
https://www.firstpost.com/world/pakistans-hindus-struggle-in-a-hostile-nation-6350541.html
(To get away from the sound and fury of our usual conversation topics)
Here’s an article about the latest on the Cretaceous extinction event: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/04/08/the-day-the-dinosaurs-died
Any opinions?
People seem to think that (1) this invalidates the Deccan Trap theory of extinction, OR (2) the Traps and the gases they released were themselves a consequence of the asteroid impact.
@Shafiq and Kabir
Just noted the exchange between the two of you. I must say, over the period of time I am frequenting this blog, I have grown to like Kabir. His is a classic liberal Pakistani Muslim view. He sincerely believes in things like Islam is a religion of peace, Muhammad was a gentle and compassionate character, Pakistanis are not Arabs but South Asians in blood, Indians and Pakistanis are same people divided by language and religion, and similar warm and cozy beliefs.
Unfortunately, i can’t say i agree with him. I am a former liberal mugged by reality. (OK, I am stealing someone’s quip here). I am a hardcore realist now. But for the sake of world peace let’s be gentle with Kabir. I like him around here. Unlike some other commentators, he does’t burst out in obscenities if you don’t like his view. We need more of his kind here.
Thank you. Much appreciated. I’ve never understood the need to resort to obscenities. It seems to me a sign of a weak argument.
“Islam is a religion of peace”– I find this to be an empty generality. There is no one “Islam”. Most Muslims are normal people just trying to live their lives and practice their faith as they see fit (similar to adherents of other religions). On the other hand, there are those who believe in political Islam and in imposing their faith on others. The same religion can be interpreted in different ways.
In my opinion, it is not religion as such but political ideologies like Islamism and Hindutva that are the problem in our region.
Dear Scorpion Eater, I do not know how long you have been in the blog but let me tell you a few things about Kabir when I first started commenting here. This Kabir was a typical crazy Pakistani Bully. Can you believe that this fucker wanted to ban people for mentioning genocide in 1971 in Bangladesh? This moron said he wouldn’t tolerate anyone saying anything bad and misleading about Pakistan. This utter twit kept mentioning about his so-called blue-blood, Ashrafi background and kept saying things like ‘lower class’ about working people. This chinless wonder of Lahore did daily tantrums threatening people if anybody said anything negative about Islam or Pakistan, never countering with logic, only threats. If this wannabe Fuhrer had any adminsitrative power, you would have seen purges in this blog like nowhere else.
The snivelling, whining creature that you see now is a product of our handiwork. Several of us confronted him directly and aggresively about his views and put him in his place. He can only whine about bigotry and how somebody is being mean. You probably haven’t see the loony Napoleon that he was before.
Kabir is a example of the Muslim psyche of Muslims in Muslim-majority lands. Utterly sure of themselves and their God-ordained superiority over everyone lese, they never encounter real opposition about their supremacist beliefs. The only way to shatter the hard but brittle bubbles of these bullies is to stike direct and. What is happening to Kabir is now happening to such Muslims all over the world. They are first time learning and knowing things that they never imagined before. And I firmly believe this is the fastest and surest way to bring about Islamic reformation and securalization.
LOL, no one has “put me in my place”. Your resort to foul language and personal attacks simply reflects the way you have been raised and/or your total lack of ability to argue your point of view coherently. Being obnoxious to people is hardly going to bring about “Islamic reform”.
There is no point in engaging further with such a nasty individual. Have a nice life.
There is no point in engaging further with such a nasty individual. Have a nice life.
lol. you can’t quit him bro.
It is hard to believe that someone who eats scorpions can be so naïve. So as ‘muslim intelectual’ the term ‘m-liberal’ is also an oxymoron. You have met dr Jekyll but you still haven’t seen mr Hyde (or opposite). Someone mentioned couple days ago the term schizophrenia. How can be a liberal someone who approves jihad, sharia, black kkk, kill infidels, 77 virgins, underage sex (legally-rape)…? M-liberals are shahids but without balls, who expect that at least couple, instead of 77, virgins will wait for them. How it is possible to be an alleged M-L? Let me refresh your memory…
Taqiya – a law like that means lying and deceit. It means that a Muslim can put his hand on the Quran and swear to tell the truth, knowing that he is lying and knowing that he will be forgiven because he lies in the interest of Islam.
Yeah i think sometimes there is unnecessary name calling wrt to Kabir.
Thanks. One would think it is possible to disagree respectfully.
Wall Street Journal report on human rights abuses of muslims by the Chinese Communist Party
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sUEek-u14w&feature=youtu.be
WSJ and US government do not care about muslims and human rights. They will do everything what they can against China (and Russia). Because, their actions against muslims in Middle East, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Palestinians, Afghanistan, Somalia and Asia will compensate with supporting ISIS in Bosnia and Kosovo by bombing the Serbs, Chechnya – to make problems to Russia and China, financing global ISIS and saying to gullible muslims – see, we are not against muslims, we care about muslim human rights.
Muyo says to his friend: ‘Haso, have you heard about the new Hotel that’s been opened?’
– I’m not, which one?
– You eat, you drink, you have sex all night and when you wake up in the morning, they give you 100 euros.
– Really, who told you that?
– My wife Fata told me.
China’s Belt-and-Road Initiative Puts a Squeeze on Pakistan
April 3rd 2019
https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-belt-and-road-initiative-puts-a-squeeze-on-pakistan-11554289201
This interview of Wasim Akram and Shoaib Akhtar seems indistinguishable from Hinglish. Seems Hindi/Urdu are tending towards the same end of Anglicization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJWV3_oE1JI
But one of the smallest things that the Lord has the mercy to do, is to let me have the idea, though only sometimes, to put Vaishnavas on a higher pedestal than myself and mentally worship (though in an incomplete but very sincere manner) Vaishnavas (who are superior to the Lord Himself) and hoping one day that both the Lord and the Vaishnavas arrive as Rama and Vanaras to liberate the Ravana in me out of misery.